March 4, 2025 • 27 mins
Joining us in the studio this week is Matt Wood from Seeing Eye Dogs Australia. We have an enlightening conversation about the role of a seeing eye dog, what’s involved in being a dog trainer and instructor and the benefits for those who seek a seeing eye dog.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Simon.
S2 (00:12):
And I'm Abby, and you're listening to In Plain Sight,
a program where we talk to people making a positive
impact in the community and disability sector, shining a light
on those who might otherwise be hidden in plain sight.
S1 (00:25):
And it's our pleasure to bring these really fabulous stories
to you on a weekly basis here on Vision Australia Radio. Hi, Abby,
how are you?
S2 (00:36):
I'm good. Simon, how are you?
S1 (00:38):
I'm great. Thanks. I've had a pretty quiet week. Haven't
really done much. As you know, I lead a very boring,
dull life. And like most people, I watch a lot
of television. And my favourite program on television at the
minute is Monster Dogs. I've never really had a dog,
but I love watching these interactions between these really clever
(00:58):
dogs and the trainers and, you know, out and about
in rural properties around Australia. What about you, Abby? You
had much to do with dogs.
S2 (01:07):
Yes, yes. Growing up, I always had two dogs, a cat,
and then, like, eight fish. Wow. So I've grown up
definitely around having animals. And it's in the family because
my sister has her own little farm with, like, I
think it's six chihuahuas, three cats, chickens, bunnies and kids.
(01:28):
Of course. Wow.
S1 (01:29):
Okay.
S2 (01:30):
So animals are definitely in the family, but currently living
in a one bedroom apartment, so I don't have any
at the moment, sadly.
S1 (01:38):
Yeah, that is hard in an apartment. Now, the reason
we're talking about dogs, because this week our interview is
with Matt Wood from Seeing Eye Dog Australia. We'll get
to that interview very shortly, and then we'll come back
from the interview and we'll have a discussion all about
dog guides. So listen on for that and enjoy this
interview now with Matt Wood. And we'd like to welcome
(02:01):
Matt here in the studio now with us. Thanks, Matt.
S3 (02:03):
Great, Simon. Thanks. Thanks for having me here. It's a
pleasure to be here.
S1 (02:07):
Now, we'll start off with the basics. Tell us what
a seeing eye dog is and how they sort of
work in general.
S3 (02:13):
Seeing Eye Dog is a specially bred and trained animal,
usually a Labrador or Golden Retriever breed or cross, and
the dog is then trained specifically to work with people
that have got a vision impairment or blind. And so
they've trained in very particular skills with a harness that
(02:36):
they wear that the person that walks beside them holds
onto the harness, and the dog guides the human anywhere
they need to go. So busy, complex environments like shopping centres,
train stations, cities, all those sorts of things. So they're
pretty clever animals. Yep. And they're bred for that purpose.
S1 (02:56):
And Matt, how long have you been a seeing eye
dog instructor and a mobility instructor?
S3 (03:02):
I started with another organization on the East Coast about
15 years ago, and I was an orientation and mobility
instructor over there. So that role involves teaching people, again,
working with people that are blind and vision impaired, how
to get around using a cane or a GPS app
or other devices, and things that can help them get
(03:23):
around just by themselves independently. And it's all equipment based.
As I became more and more fluent and interested in
that field, I worked with people that used dogs, and
I was never really going to get into the dog world.
But the more I worked with these people, the more
I realized that was pretty unique and pretty special. So
(03:46):
I had a very kind manager that I was working
with at the time, who promoted me and put my
name forward as a potential dog trainer. And then I
went to their school over in Sydney and learned how
to be a dog trainer and dog instructor. So that
was ten years ago when I started with dogs. Yeah.
So came over here two and a half, three years
ago and been working with Vision Australia here.
S1 (04:08):
It's great that there is that opportunity and choice for
people to choose a dog as their form of mobility assistance.
S3 (04:15):
Absolutely. Yeah. It's really critical that there's a choice for
our clients. There is another school here, Guide Dogs, Western Australia.
They've been here quite a long time. They were the
original school in Australia. But over the years a lot
of the people that lived and got around in Perth
decided that they would like to have an alternative as well.
(04:38):
So they started going over to Melbourne, where our head
centre is at. Our Seeing Eye dog training centre in Melbourne,
and they would be matched with a dog and they
would train over there and then fly back and they'd
use their dog here in Perth. And eventually there was
a group of them that thought, well, we need a
bit more than just going back and forth to Melbourne
and no staff here in Perth at that stage. A
(05:00):
few of them got the CEO from Vision Australia to
come over to a cafe and they said, look, if
we get 3 or 4 people to this cafe to
talk to you about having a Vision Australia store and
a Vision Australia presence in Perth, that would be great.
He said yeah, I'll do that. I'll come over. By
the time he came here, the cafe was filled with
about 40 people that were really keen to have Vision
(05:23):
Australia in Perth and have a dog instructor permanently based
here in Perth as well. So from that time around
about 2013 or 2015, I think it was there's been
a dog instructor based in Perth. Yes. And we've had
a store here and we've had staff here as well,
and now we've got the radio station. Yep. The store
(05:43):
is still operating and the dog program is still operating,
so that's fantastic.
S1 (05:48):
Yeah, yeah. And now you mentioned that you were a
mobility instructor and now you're a dog instructor. What are
the main reasons someone might choose to use a seeing
eye dog as their choice of mobility for their vision impairment.
Other than using a white cane.
S3 (06:05):
To the naked eye, or to somebody watching somebody with
a cane, or using a dog to get down the street,
they look the same. You don't realize that the person
with the cane can't see, you know? So let's assume
that they're both blind. The person with the cane has
to bang everything as they go along the street. So
if they're coming up to a bin or a seat
(06:26):
or somebody standing in the middle of the footpath or
an obstacle, the cane has to hit that obstacle first,
and then the person realizes, oh, what's that? And then
they have to explore around that. It might be just
a pole, it might be the edge of a building
or something like that. So they they have to hit
everything or find everything with that cane. When you have
a dog, the dog does all that work for you.
(06:48):
So the dog's thinking ahead, okay. Oh, we've got a
pole coming up here. We've got an obstacle coming up here.
Where is the biggest gap on either side of that
obstacle to get this person around safely. So our dogs
are trained if they're working on the. Usually they work
on the left side of the human. So then the
human will say find the way and. And then the
(07:10):
dog goes, oh okay, I need to calculate. I've got
to find the biggest gap. And I've also got to.
Make sure that the human doesn't bump into that on
their right side where there isn't a dog on. That side.
So the dog finds that safe way around. So the
biggest contrast that people that have a dog. Say is
you don't find anything. You just ask the dog, find
(07:33):
the door or find the ramp or find whatever. Let's
find the cafe. And the dog just takes you down
the street to the cafe or to the library or to.
S1 (07:41):
Not only once they've found the cafe, they'll find the seat.
S3 (07:44):
That's right.
S1 (07:45):
Because you've got an extra. Brain walking alongside you that
can help you along. And I'm assuming that it would
also be a little. Bit less stressful for someone that
is using a dog.
S4 (07:56):
Because.
S1 (07:57):
Someone that uses a white cane, they have to concentrate
so hard and think every little step that they take.
For those who don't know, that's why it's important not
to interrupt someone with a white cane while they're walking,
because it will break their flow.
S3 (08:10):
And that's spot on. Exactly right.
S1 (08:12):
So it could make things worse instead of helping.
S3 (08:15):
And that same piece of advice works for the person
working with the dog as well. The dog is doing
all that calculating, and the person is feeling what the
dog is telling them through their handle, and so they're
aware as to where they are on the footpath or
coming down the street or down the corridor. And they
(08:35):
may have some spatial awareness as well, but the dog
is doing all that calculating for them. And then when
somebody comes along and says, oh, aren't you beautiful? Oh,
you're a lovely puppy. Look at you. And of course
the dog is a dog. The first thing. And it's
going to then interact with that person that breaks the
(08:56):
whole flow of that dog, concentrating as it does for
the person with a cane. Well, what did you say?
What are you doing? And so the dog then has
to focus on what that person is telling them, and
the person that the client that's using the dog to
get around is then put in danger. So we ask
people and we have a label on our harnesses for
(09:18):
the dogs that say, please don't distract me, I'm working.
So all of those things that talking to the dog
or patting it or reaching out to the dog or
whistling to the dog, even I've heard people whistle at
the dog down the street. That breaks the concentration and
the work for the dog, so it puts the human
in danger straight away. So I say to everybody, please
(09:40):
talk to the human, and likely you're going to get
an answer from the human if you start talking to
the dog. I don't think I've come across a dog
yet that answers anybody.
S1 (09:50):
No. And I want.
S3 (09:51):
To know if they do.
S1 (09:53):
I've noticed dogs don't talk very much.
S3 (09:54):
They generally don't talk very much. Yeah. Only to each other. But, um,
so you're going to get a much better answer from
the human. Oh, tell me about your dog. Or can
you tell me anything, or are you okay? Do you
need any help?
S1 (10:07):
Yeah, that's really important. And fantastic views there. Matt. Thanks
for that. Now we'll move on to what's involved in
training a seeing eye dog. I assume that you have
to train the dog, and then you have to train
the person separately and then together. Yes. So we'll start
with the dog. What is involved with training a dog?
So it can be then eventually be a seeing eye dog.
S3 (10:27):
It really all starts from a puppy in the litter.
As I said, we purpose breed our dogs now, so
we have people at our training centre and our, um,
puppy centre in Melbourne that are assessing the puppies right
from day one. So they're identified. They're all given names
and identification. And for that first eight weeks, they stay
(10:48):
with their their mother in the in the kennels. And
then they go out to our puppy raisers and you think, oh, okay,
they have a year or so with their puppy raiser,
but all the way through that year or so that
they're with the puppy raisers, they are given training, that
the dogs are given training, and the families and the
people that are volunteering to be a puppy raiser for
(11:10):
our dogs, they're given training regularly as well, so that
they get an idea of what we're aiming for this
dog to be doing. So without the dog even realizing
we're starting to grow their skills to become a seeing
eye dog as part of that. During that whole process,
they're being assessed all the way through. They're to have
they got the right temperament? Are they well suited for
(11:32):
working in unusual situations or noisy situations, or all the
weird and wonderful places that we take our dogs? Um,
obviously not high end, but, you know, just the beginning.
What's what's the dog like out on the street? What's
the dog like when it meets other dogs? Those sorts
of things. And then after that, 12 months or so,
they come into our training center, we give them a
(11:54):
really full assessment as to their suitability to start official training.
And then that training begins with our dedicated trainers. So
we've got a really good team of highly skilled, experienced
trainers working at Kensington at our training centre in Melbourne.
And so they are given the responsibility of say, you know,
(12:15):
4 or 6 or maybe even eight dogs at a time.
And those dogs, um, go through with that trainer and
each couple every few weeks. They are then given another assessment.
So we obviously we start off nice and easy. So
it's kindergarten for the first few weeks. How's the dog
doing this? How's the dog doing that? What's it like
(12:35):
if we give it a harness or we put a
body piece on it, those sorts of things, and then
we build up their skills. So by the end of
the 20 weeks, and that's all they get. 20 weeks,
just five months of their whole school, university, everything, their
whole training is over those five months. By the end
of that period, if they've made it through that, they're
catching in Melbourne, they're catching trams, they're catching buses, they're
(12:58):
on the trains, they're in busy shopping centres, they're in
the middle of town at peak hour. So, you know,
we really push them at the deep end as to
what skills these dogs have got so that we know
when we put them out with our clients, they're able
to go to shopping centres. They're on escalators. So how
how old.
S1 (13:14):
Would the dog be by this stage?
S3 (13:16):
Usually about somewhere between, usually at the earliest, maybe 16
or 17 months, but usually around 18 months, 20 months
when they've finished and they're back out and they come
back to be matched with a client.
S2 (13:27):
Is there many dogs that are found not suitable?
S3 (13:30):
Yes. Sorry, Abby, there are. But we say to those
dogs that they've chosen another career path. They've had a
career change because they have feelings too. We don't want
to say that they've been rejected. They they have.
S1 (13:44):
Done a lot of those. Now go off to be
assistance dogs and companion dogs.
S3 (13:48):
They can be depending whereabouts in that 20 weeks that
they've made it. If they can't, if they come in
at training and they don't quite make it to come
into training, then we might look at them as going
out as a pet. So but by that stage they're chipped,
they're vaccinated, they've had a bit of training and house
training as well. So they're still really lovely pets. And
(14:10):
don't forget, they're pure bred too. So they're available as
a pet. But then as we get through training, so
at four weeks or eight weeks or through those stages,
they're getting a whole lot of other skills as well.
So they might get all the way through. And I've
trained dogs that got all the way through to the
busy complex levels, and they didn't quite make it. They
(14:32):
got too stressed. But then yeah, we have other ways
to then use those skills and those dogs as assistance
dogs or therapy dogs or those sorts of things as well.
So they have a lot of skills.
S2 (14:43):
What makes them not suitable, usually anxiety.
S3 (14:47):
So they present anxiety in different ways. Every dog is
an individual, so they might have a little bit of vocalizing.
We call it their barking, or they're making a noise
because they're anxious about where they are, or they keep
checking in with the trainer, or am I doing the
right thing? What do I do here? Or the classic
dog language behaviors? Their ears get pinned down, their tail
(15:11):
gets down between their legs. They might try and reduce
their size to like us. You know, when we're stressed,
we have different behaviors. And so we look out for
those things. So we'll move.
S1 (15:20):
On now to what it takes to train someone with
a vision impairment to work alongside that dog. How long
does that take and what's the process involved?
S3 (15:28):
Simon everyone is different, of course. Every dog is different.
Every person is different. And every even, every environment is different.
Just give us a general. Well.
S1 (15:38):
Normally you would only have key sort of points where
you'd think, oh, time frames that you think you're reaching
your goals or you're not reaching your goals.
S3 (15:46):
Yeah, yeah we do. We have a standard sort of
four weeks? Some people come to dog mobility with lots
of dog experience and dog mobility experience. This might be
their second, their third, their fourth dog. And they know
all about that mobility side of things. They might only
take a couple of weeks to get familiar with that dog.
There might be other people, the first time users that
(16:07):
have never used a dog before, or never even have
a dog in their house, they might take all of
that time. So we allow for all those individual differences.
And and then we have to look at how is
that person going. How's the dog going. So we've got
to have allowances as to how everyone's feeling. We also
look at the environment that they're in. They might be
(16:28):
in a very, very busy environment. And so we how
do we work in the program that we can build
up to get into that busy, busy environment, same as
through the dogs training. So the relationship between the human
and the dog is built during that period. And then
we come back later as an instructor. We come back
once it's all finished and we know that we can
(16:49):
sign off the program, we can let that dog and
that human work together for a few weeks. We touch
base with them after a couple of weeks, if they
need any more refreshers or a bit more advice, we're available.
And then we have officially at one month and then
at three months and so on. Through that first year,
we're giving them lots of support and checking in, and
(17:10):
then after that we just do an annually. But I
say to all the clients as well, any time you
need me, just let me know and I can come
and help you. There might be some footpaths are being
torn up, bus routes a change. So yeah, it's an
ongoing process.
S1 (17:24):
I'm sure it is. Now give us one quick example
of say I want to learn how to get from
home to the shop.
S3 (17:30):
I will look at the the route from their front
door to the shops and whereabouts they need to go
in the shopping centre. Let's say it's local shops, a
row of shops, say with a cafe, a laundromat, a chemist, whatever.
So I then look at how many roads they might
need to cross. And so I'd go over that track myself,
(17:51):
and then I'd come back to the client and we
might say, okay, let's do this. Just you and I,
and you bring your cane out and let's explore this ourselves, okay?
So they're brand new in that suburb. Yep. And then
we might say, okay, let's get the dog and we'll
bring the dog out because they're pet dogs as well.
You know, they can go, uh, like in those public
(18:11):
spaces on lead. So then we would walk the dog
over that track and then we'd go back again. So
the dog learns both ways, going to the shops and
coming back. Then we'd put the harness on the dog,
so we'd do it several times before we actually worked
the dog. Yep. And then I walk behind the client,
and then I walk away from the client. I watch
them from a distance.
S1 (18:32):
So you. You'd have to train the person to train
the dog. Correct. Okay. That's fascinating. Matt. Now we have to, um,
quickly wind up this really interesting conversation. Soon. We're running
out of time. I'll just ask you a few final things.
How does a person who's listening get into becoming a
seeing eye dog user or a handler?
S3 (18:52):
We've got a website. I think Abby's got the website there. Yeah. Um,
and we've got a phone number as well to, um,
get in touch with me. We have our office at
148 Railway Parade at West Leederville. So you can contact
us through the website or at the office. Okay. And, uh,
and then I come out and do an assessment and
have a chat with you as to how we can
(19:15):
transition from whatever way you're getting around to a dog.
S1 (19:19):
Another common question people often ask is, how do people
get involved with helping to raise the puppies?
S3 (19:25):
That's a great question, Simon. Our puppy raising is mainly
done in Melbourne through our centre in in Melbourne, but
we also have puppy raising staff in New South Wales
and in Brisbane. So through our website you can find
out if you're in those areas, how to actually have
(19:46):
a puppy in your house, but also through our website.
I say to all the people in Perth that see
our dogs and say, how can I do some puppy raising?
I said, oh, this is even better in Perth. You
can do it remotely so you can support our puppy
raising financially. Each each month. And you don't have the
puppy in your house chewing all your slippers and pooing
and weeing for those first few months where you're training
(20:08):
as house trained.
S1 (20:09):
Okay. You just mentioned finances there, so this will be
my final question. What does it cost the blind person
to take on a seeing eye dog?
S3 (20:18):
The the best thing about that answer, Simon, is that
to acquire the dog, the only cost will be your
energy and your time. So we have a very, very generous,
wonderful donor program. So if anyone else is listening that
would like to support us through the donations, we are
able to use those donations for people that are not
(20:39):
eligible for the National Disability Insurance Scheme. So if you're
on the NDIS and you have an NDI, a program,
we're able to then factor into that a dog component
as well. So the financial cost to a person with
a dog is minimal because of those support mechanisms. But
there is also the opportunity for people to say, well,
(21:01):
my dog needs some more toys or whatever. It's part
of the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Those clients have an
annual dog maintenance fund that they can use to have
vet costs, and also food costs covered. Okay. Yeah. So
there's lots of ways that that financial side of thing
can be covered.
S1 (21:22):
Well thanks, Matt. That's fascinating because I know everyone is
always really interested in seeing our dogs whenever you see
them around, and they are quite a visible part of
the community. So I'd like to thank Matt Wood from
Seeing Eye Dog for joining us here today at Vision
Australia Radio. And great to speak with you, Matt.
S3 (21:40):
Thank you so much, Simon. Thanks, Abby. Great to be here.
S1 (21:48):
Hi. Wasn't that a fantastic conversation we just had with
Matt there from seeing Eye Dog Australia? I love seeing
the working dogs in action. Now, as Matt mentioned in
his conversation there, there are in Australia two main companies
that train and provide dog guides. There is seeing Eye
Dogs Australia and Guide Dogs Australia. Now being quite parochial
(22:09):
here in Western Australia and I think Matt touched on it,
Perth was the first place in Australia to start using
guide dogs. That was after someone called Arnold Cooke went
over to England and learnt about the use of guide dogs.
And then he came back here to Perth and then said, well,
let's get these up and running. And he decided that
(22:31):
the assistance of a dog was very beneficial for people
who were blind, and then started up the guide dog
school here in Perth, and it spread across Australia. So
well done us here in Perth. Yeah.
S2 (22:43):
Yeah. Exactly. Simon. And in Australia, the preferred dog breed
is a Labrador. And it's historically always been the case.
Since guide dogs were developed in Australia in the 1950s.
The Labrador or Labrador cross is favoured because it's a
good sized dog. It's affectionate, even tempered, and it's neither
(23:05):
fast nor too lethargic.
S1 (23:07):
Whilst we all know there is some very intelligent dogs
out there like the Kelpies and the collies, as we've
seen on the television program I mentioned earlier. But they
like to do their work constantly, and I've seen many
dog guides that you walk to the office, you sit
down for a long time, then you walk again at
lunchtime and you sit down for a long time. A
(23:28):
kelpie wouldn't like sitting around for long periods of time,
so that was one of the things you just mentioned
about the temperament of a Labrador. They're pretty easygoing as
well as being quite intelligent and easy to train, so
they're a good choice.
S2 (23:42):
They need to be okay with walking slowly and not
constantly running around.
S1 (23:47):
That's right. German Shepherds were one of the first dogs
that were used to assist the blind in Germany when
this idea was first started, and when the idea was
taken to America, they were used. German Shepherds were used
as well. But again, across the world most people use
the Labrador or similar types of breeds like that. Slight tangent.
(24:07):
Note I knew a fellow Mark, who had a Rottweiler,
and he had it certified by seeing eye dogs over
here in Perth, and it did catch the attention of
most people to see someone, a blind person using a
Rottweiler as their assistance dog.
S2 (24:22):
Yeah, I can definitely say I've never seen that.
S1 (24:26):
No, no, it was very unusual. And a key.
S2 (24:29):
Point as well to note is when they are working,
you're not to pat them or distract them, which can
be really hard because previously we had Caitlyn in the
studio who has a beautiful guide dog named Rennie, and
while we were interviewing her, he put his head on
my feet and looked up at me and I'm like, Rennie,
(24:49):
you know I can't patch you right now. So as
hard as it can be and tempting, definitely don't.
S1 (24:57):
And that's right. And we're here at Vision Australia Radio
are very accepting of having guide dogs and seeing our
dogs in the studio. However, there are still a lot
of misinformed people who don't allow people who are using
a dog guide into their restaurant or more importantly, into
their cab or into their Uber. And this causes a
(25:20):
lot of problems, and it's quite a big issue. And
it's in the media all the time. This is just
not acceptable. There are laws in place, especially for taxis
and especially for restaurants and theaters and wherever else, that
if a blind person is using a dog guide, They're
allowed to go everywhere else. There's only two main areas
(25:42):
a dog guide can't go, and that's the zoo and
certain parts of the hospital.
S2 (25:47):
Yeah, definitely think it would be problematic in the zoo.
S1 (25:51):
Yeah. And, um, it is a big push from a
lot of the advocacy organizations. And there is a special
advocacy organization and peer support organization that I'd like to
shout out to. It's called Dog Guide Handlers Australia, and
they are just a bunch of volunteers who get together
(26:11):
to try to lobby, bring better representation to people who
are using dog guides and well done to them.
S2 (26:18):
Yeah, very, very interesting Simon, and definitely some good points
made there. I really enjoyed this interview. It was very,
very good to speak to Matt and just learn what
is involved and what goes into training these dogs. So yeah,
it was a great interview and thank you so much.
And I'll just have a reminder to everyone that we
(26:39):
would love any feedback that you can give us. Anything
you want to say. Or if you're interested in even
coming on the show for any particular reason, you can
flick us an email. Our email is in plain sight
at Vision Australia. Org that's in plain sight at Vision Australia. Org.
So thank you so much.
S1 (27:00):
Thanks a lot for joining us here on In Plain
Sight and Vision Australia Radio. Join us again sometime very soon.
And you can look up all the local guides on
VA radio.org and on demand on all the major platforms
for podcasts. Speak to you soon. Bye for now.
Hi, I'm Simon.
S2 (00:12):
And I'm Abby, and you're listening to In Plain Sight,
a program where we talk to people making a positive
impact in the community and disability sector, shining a light
on those who might otherwise be hidden in plain sight.
S1 (00:25):
And it's our pleasure to bring these really fabulous stories
to you on a weekly basis here on Vision Australia Radio. Hi, Abby,
how are you?
S2 (00:36):
I'm good. Simon, how are you?
S1 (00:38):
I'm great. Thanks. I've had a pretty quiet week. Haven't
really done much. As you know, I lead a very boring,
dull life. And like most people, I watch a lot
of television. And my favourite program on television at the
minute is Monster Dogs. I've never really had a dog,
but I love watching these interactions between these really clever
(00:58):
dogs and the trainers and, you know, out and about
in rural properties around Australia. What about you, Abby? You
had much to do with dogs.
S2 (01:07):
Yes, yes. Growing up, I always had two dogs, a cat,
and then, like, eight fish. Wow. So I've grown up
definitely around having animals. And it's in the family because
my sister has her own little farm with, like, I
think it's six chihuahuas, three cats, chickens, bunnies and kids.
(01:28):
Of course. Wow.
S1 (01:29):
Okay.
S2 (01:30):
So animals are definitely in the family, but currently living
in a one bedroom apartment, so I don't have any
at the moment, sadly.
S1 (01:38):
Yeah, that is hard in an apartment. Now, the reason
we're talking about dogs, because this week our interview is
with Matt Wood from Seeing Eye Dog Australia. We'll get
to that interview very shortly, and then we'll come back
from the interview and we'll have a discussion all about
dog guides. So listen on for that and enjoy this
interview now with Matt Wood. And we'd like to welcome
(02:01):
Matt here in the studio now with us. Thanks, Matt.
S3 (02:03):
Great, Simon. Thanks. Thanks for having me here. It's a
pleasure to be here.
S1 (02:07):
Now, we'll start off with the basics. Tell us what
a seeing eye dog is and how they sort of
work in general.
S3 (02:13):
Seeing Eye Dog is a specially bred and trained animal,
usually a Labrador or Golden Retriever breed or cross, and
the dog is then trained specifically to work with people
that have got a vision impairment or blind. And so
they've trained in very particular skills with a harness that
(02:36):
they wear that the person that walks beside them holds
onto the harness, and the dog guides the human anywhere
they need to go. So busy, complex environments like shopping centres,
train stations, cities, all those sorts of things. So they're
pretty clever animals. Yep. And they're bred for that purpose.
S1 (02:56):
And Matt, how long have you been a seeing eye
dog instructor and a mobility instructor?
S3 (03:02):
I started with another organization on the East Coast about
15 years ago, and I was an orientation and mobility
instructor over there. So that role involves teaching people, again,
working with people that are blind and vision impaired, how
to get around using a cane or a GPS app
or other devices, and things that can help them get
(03:23):
around just by themselves independently. And it's all equipment based.
As I became more and more fluent and interested in
that field, I worked with people that used dogs, and
I was never really going to get into the dog world.
But the more I worked with these people, the more
I realized that was pretty unique and pretty special. So
(03:46):
I had a very kind manager that I was working
with at the time, who promoted me and put my
name forward as a potential dog trainer. And then I
went to their school over in Sydney and learned how
to be a dog trainer and dog instructor. So that
was ten years ago when I started with dogs. Yeah.
So came over here two and a half, three years
ago and been working with Vision Australia here.
S1 (04:08):
It's great that there is that opportunity and choice for
people to choose a dog as their form of mobility assistance.
S3 (04:15):
Absolutely. Yeah. It's really critical that there's a choice for
our clients. There is another school here, Guide Dogs, Western Australia.
They've been here quite a long time. They were the
original school in Australia. But over the years a lot
of the people that lived and got around in Perth
decided that they would like to have an alternative as well.
(04:38):
So they started going over to Melbourne, where our head
centre is at. Our Seeing Eye dog training centre in Melbourne,
and they would be matched with a dog and they
would train over there and then fly back and they'd
use their dog here in Perth. And eventually there was
a group of them that thought, well, we need a
bit more than just going back and forth to Melbourne
and no staff here in Perth at that stage. A
(05:00):
few of them got the CEO from Vision Australia to
come over to a cafe and they said, look, if
we get 3 or 4 people to this cafe to
talk to you about having a Vision Australia store and
a Vision Australia presence in Perth, that would be great.
He said yeah, I'll do that. I'll come over. By
the time he came here, the cafe was filled with
about 40 people that were really keen to have Vision
(05:23):
Australia in Perth and have a dog instructor permanently based
here in Perth as well. So from that time around
about 2013 or 2015, I think it was there's been
a dog instructor based in Perth. Yes. And we've had
a store here and we've had staff here as well,
and now we've got the radio station. Yep. The store
(05:43):
is still operating and the dog program is still operating,
so that's fantastic.
S1 (05:48):
Yeah, yeah. And now you mentioned that you were a
mobility instructor and now you're a dog instructor. What are
the main reasons someone might choose to use a seeing
eye dog as their choice of mobility for their vision impairment.
Other than using a white cane.
S3 (06:05):
To the naked eye, or to somebody watching somebody with
a cane, or using a dog to get down the street,
they look the same. You don't realize that the person
with the cane can't see, you know? So let's assume
that they're both blind. The person with the cane has
to bang everything as they go along the street. So
if they're coming up to a bin or a seat
(06:26):
or somebody standing in the middle of the footpath or
an obstacle, the cane has to hit that obstacle first,
and then the person realizes, oh, what's that? And then
they have to explore around that. It might be just
a pole, it might be the edge of a building
or something like that. So they they have to hit
everything or find everything with that cane. When you have
a dog, the dog does all that work for you.
(06:48):
So the dog's thinking ahead, okay. Oh, we've got a
pole coming up here. We've got an obstacle coming up here.
Where is the biggest gap on either side of that
obstacle to get this person around safely. So our dogs
are trained if they're working on the. Usually they work
on the left side of the human. So then the
human will say find the way and. And then the
(07:10):
dog goes, oh okay, I need to calculate. I've got
to find the biggest gap. And I've also got to.
Make sure that the human doesn't bump into that on
their right side where there isn't a dog on. That side.
So the dog finds that safe way around. So the
biggest contrast that people that have a dog. Say is
you don't find anything. You just ask the dog, find
(07:33):
the door or find the ramp or find whatever. Let's
find the cafe. And the dog just takes you down
the street to the cafe or to the library or to.
S1 (07:41):
Not only once they've found the cafe, they'll find the seat.
S3 (07:44):
That's right.
S1 (07:45):
Because you've got an extra. Brain walking alongside you that
can help you along. And I'm assuming that it would
also be a little. Bit less stressful for someone that
is using a dog.
S4 (07:56):
Because.
S1 (07:57):
Someone that uses a white cane, they have to concentrate
so hard and think every little step that they take.
For those who don't know, that's why it's important not
to interrupt someone with a white cane while they're walking,
because it will break their flow.
S3 (08:10):
And that's spot on. Exactly right.
S1 (08:12):
So it could make things worse instead of helping.
S3 (08:15):
And that same piece of advice works for the person
working with the dog as well. The dog is doing
all that calculating, and the person is feeling what the
dog is telling them through their handle, and so they're
aware as to where they are on the footpath or
coming down the street or down the corridor. And they
(08:35):
may have some spatial awareness as well, but the dog
is doing all that calculating for them. And then when
somebody comes along and says, oh, aren't you beautiful? Oh,
you're a lovely puppy. Look at you. And of course
the dog is a dog. The first thing. And it's
going to then interact with that person that breaks the
(08:56):
whole flow of that dog, concentrating as it does for
the person with a cane. Well, what did you say?
What are you doing? And so the dog then has
to focus on what that person is telling them, and
the person that the client that's using the dog to
get around is then put in danger. So we ask
people and we have a label on our harnesses for
(09:18):
the dogs that say, please don't distract me, I'm working.
So all of those things that talking to the dog
or patting it or reaching out to the dog or
whistling to the dog, even I've heard people whistle at
the dog down the street. That breaks the concentration and
the work for the dog, so it puts the human
in danger straight away. So I say to everybody, please
(09:40):
talk to the human, and likely you're going to get
an answer from the human if you start talking to
the dog. I don't think I've come across a dog
yet that answers anybody.
S1 (09:50):
No. And I want.
S3 (09:51):
To know if they do.
S1 (09:53):
I've noticed dogs don't talk very much.
S3 (09:54):
They generally don't talk very much. Yeah. Only to each other. But, um,
so you're going to get a much better answer from
the human. Oh, tell me about your dog. Or can
you tell me anything, or are you okay? Do you
need any help?
S1 (10:07):
Yeah, that's really important. And fantastic views there. Matt. Thanks
for that. Now we'll move on to what's involved in
training a seeing eye dog. I assume that you have
to train the dog, and then you have to train
the person separately and then together. Yes. So we'll start
with the dog. What is involved with training a dog?
So it can be then eventually be a seeing eye dog.
S3 (10:27):
It really all starts from a puppy in the litter.
As I said, we purpose breed our dogs now, so
we have people at our training centre and our, um,
puppy centre in Melbourne that are assessing the puppies right
from day one. So they're identified. They're all given names
and identification. And for that first eight weeks, they stay
(10:48):
with their their mother in the in the kennels. And
then they go out to our puppy raisers and you think, oh, okay,
they have a year or so with their puppy raiser,
but all the way through that year or so that
they're with the puppy raisers, they are given training, that
the dogs are given training, and the families and the
people that are volunteering to be a puppy raiser for
(11:10):
our dogs, they're given training regularly as well, so that
they get an idea of what we're aiming for this
dog to be doing. So without the dog even realizing
we're starting to grow their skills to become a seeing
eye dog as part of that. During that whole process,
they're being assessed all the way through. They're to have
they got the right temperament? Are they well suited for
(11:32):
working in unusual situations or noisy situations, or all the
weird and wonderful places that we take our dogs? Um,
obviously not high end, but, you know, just the beginning.
What's what's the dog like out on the street? What's
the dog like when it meets other dogs? Those sorts
of things. And then after that, 12 months or so,
they come into our training center, we give them a
(11:54):
really full assessment as to their suitability to start official training.
And then that training begins with our dedicated trainers. So
we've got a really good team of highly skilled, experienced
trainers working at Kensington at our training centre in Melbourne.
And so they are given the responsibility of say, you know,
(12:15):
4 or 6 or maybe even eight dogs at a time.
And those dogs, um, go through with that trainer and
each couple every few weeks. They are then given another assessment.
So we obviously we start off nice and easy. So
it's kindergarten for the first few weeks. How's the dog
doing this? How's the dog doing that? What's it like
(12:35):
if we give it a harness or we put a
body piece on it, those sorts of things, and then
we build up their skills. So by the end of
the 20 weeks, and that's all they get. 20 weeks,
just five months of their whole school, university, everything, their
whole training is over those five months. By the end
of that period, if they've made it through that, they're
catching in Melbourne, they're catching trams, they're catching buses, they're
(12:58):
on the trains, they're in busy shopping centres, they're in
the middle of town at peak hour. So, you know,
we really push them at the deep end as to
what skills these dogs have got so that we know
when we put them out with our clients, they're able
to go to shopping centres. They're on escalators. So how
how old.
S1 (13:14):
Would the dog be by this stage?
S3 (13:16):
Usually about somewhere between, usually at the earliest, maybe 16
or 17 months, but usually around 18 months, 20 months
when they've finished and they're back out and they come
back to be matched with a client.
S2 (13:27):
Is there many dogs that are found not suitable?
S3 (13:30):
Yes. Sorry, Abby, there are. But we say to those
dogs that they've chosen another career path. They've had a
career change because they have feelings too. We don't want
to say that they've been rejected. They they have.
S1 (13:44):
Done a lot of those. Now go off to be
assistance dogs and companion dogs.
S3 (13:48):
They can be depending whereabouts in that 20 weeks that
they've made it. If they can't, if they come in
at training and they don't quite make it to come
into training, then we might look at them as going
out as a pet. So but by that stage they're chipped,
they're vaccinated, they've had a bit of training and house
training as well. So they're still really lovely pets. And
(14:10):
don't forget, they're pure bred too. So they're available as
a pet. But then as we get through training, so
at four weeks or eight weeks or through those stages,
they're getting a whole lot of other skills as well.
So they might get all the way through. And I've
trained dogs that got all the way through to the
busy complex levels, and they didn't quite make it. They
(14:32):
got too stressed. But then yeah, we have other ways
to then use those skills and those dogs as assistance
dogs or therapy dogs or those sorts of things as well.
So they have a lot of skills.
S2 (14:43):
What makes them not suitable, usually anxiety.
S3 (14:47):
So they present anxiety in different ways. Every dog is
an individual, so they might have a little bit of vocalizing.
We call it their barking, or they're making a noise
because they're anxious about where they are, or they keep
checking in with the trainer, or am I doing the
right thing? What do I do here? Or the classic
dog language behaviors? Their ears get pinned down, their tail
(15:11):
gets down between their legs. They might try and reduce
their size to like us. You know, when we're stressed,
we have different behaviors. And so we look out for
those things. So we'll move.
S1 (15:20):
On now to what it takes to train someone with
a vision impairment to work alongside that dog. How long
does that take and what's the process involved?
S3 (15:28):
Simon everyone is different, of course. Every dog is different.
Every person is different. And every even, every environment is different.
Just give us a general. Well.
S1 (15:38):
Normally you would only have key sort of points where
you'd think, oh, time frames that you think you're reaching
your goals or you're not reaching your goals.
S3 (15:46):
Yeah, yeah we do. We have a standard sort of
four weeks? Some people come to dog mobility with lots
of dog experience and dog mobility experience. This might be
their second, their third, their fourth dog. And they know
all about that mobility side of things. They might only
take a couple of weeks to get familiar with that dog.
There might be other people, the first time users that
(16:07):
have never used a dog before, or never even have
a dog in their house, they might take all of
that time. So we allow for all those individual differences.
And and then we have to look at how is
that person going. How's the dog going. So we've got
to have allowances as to how everyone's feeling. We also
look at the environment that they're in. They might be
(16:28):
in a very, very busy environment. And so we how
do we work in the program that we can build
up to get into that busy, busy environment, same as
through the dogs training. So the relationship between the human
and the dog is built during that period. And then
we come back later as an instructor. We come back
once it's all finished and we know that we can
(16:49):
sign off the program, we can let that dog and
that human work together for a few weeks. We touch
base with them after a couple of weeks, if they
need any more refreshers or a bit more advice, we're available.
And then we have officially at one month and then
at three months and so on. Through that first year,
we're giving them lots of support and checking in, and
(17:10):
then after that we just do an annually. But I
say to all the clients as well, any time you
need me, just let me know and I can come
and help you. There might be some footpaths are being
torn up, bus routes a change. So yeah, it's an
ongoing process.
S1 (17:24):
I'm sure it is. Now give us one quick example
of say I want to learn how to get from
home to the shop.
S3 (17:30):
I will look at the the route from their front
door to the shops and whereabouts they need to go
in the shopping centre. Let's say it's local shops, a
row of shops, say with a cafe, a laundromat, a chemist, whatever.
So I then look at how many roads they might
need to cross. And so I'd go over that track myself,
(17:51):
and then I'd come back to the client and we
might say, okay, let's do this. Just you and I,
and you bring your cane out and let's explore this ourselves, okay?
So they're brand new in that suburb. Yep. And then
we might say, okay, let's get the dog and we'll
bring the dog out because they're pet dogs as well.
You know, they can go, uh, like in those public
(18:11):
spaces on lead. So then we would walk the dog
over that track and then we'd go back again. So
the dog learns both ways, going to the shops and
coming back. Then we'd put the harness on the dog,
so we'd do it several times before we actually worked
the dog. Yep. And then I walk behind the client,
and then I walk away from the client. I watch
them from a distance.
S1 (18:32):
So you. You'd have to train the person to train
the dog. Correct. Okay. That's fascinating. Matt. Now we have to, um,
quickly wind up this really interesting conversation. Soon. We're running
out of time. I'll just ask you a few final things.
How does a person who's listening get into becoming a
seeing eye dog user or a handler?
S3 (18:52):
We've got a website. I think Abby's got the website there. Yeah. Um,
and we've got a phone number as well to, um,
get in touch with me. We have our office at
148 Railway Parade at West Leederville. So you can contact
us through the website or at the office. Okay. And, uh,
and then I come out and do an assessment and
have a chat with you as to how we can
(19:15):
transition from whatever way you're getting around to a dog.
S1 (19:19):
Another common question people often ask is, how do people
get involved with helping to raise the puppies?
S3 (19:25):
That's a great question, Simon. Our puppy raising is mainly
done in Melbourne through our centre in in Melbourne, but
we also have puppy raising staff in New South Wales
and in Brisbane. So through our website you can find
out if you're in those areas, how to actually have
(19:46):
a puppy in your house, but also through our website.
I say to all the people in Perth that see
our dogs and say, how can I do some puppy raising?
I said, oh, this is even better in Perth. You
can do it remotely so you can support our puppy
raising financially. Each each month. And you don't have the
puppy in your house chewing all your slippers and pooing
and weeing for those first few months where you're training
(20:08):
as house trained.
S1 (20:09):
Okay. You just mentioned finances there, so this will be
my final question. What does it cost the blind person
to take on a seeing eye dog?
S3 (20:18):
The the best thing about that answer, Simon, is that
to acquire the dog, the only cost will be your
energy and your time. So we have a very, very generous,
wonderful donor program. So if anyone else is listening that
would like to support us through the donations, we are
able to use those donations for people that are not
(20:39):
eligible for the National Disability Insurance Scheme. So if you're
on the NDIS and you have an NDI, a program,
we're able to then factor into that a dog component
as well. So the financial cost to a person with
a dog is minimal because of those support mechanisms. But
there is also the opportunity for people to say, well,
(21:01):
my dog needs some more toys or whatever. It's part
of the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Those clients have an
annual dog maintenance fund that they can use to have
vet costs, and also food costs covered. Okay. Yeah. So
there's lots of ways that that financial side of thing
can be covered.
S1 (21:22):
Well thanks, Matt. That's fascinating because I know everyone is
always really interested in seeing our dogs whenever you see
them around, and they are quite a visible part of
the community. So I'd like to thank Matt Wood from
Seeing Eye Dog for joining us here today at Vision
Australia Radio. And great to speak with you, Matt.
S3 (21:40):
Thank you so much, Simon. Thanks, Abby. Great to be here.
S1 (21:48):
Hi. Wasn't that a fantastic conversation we just had with
Matt there from seeing Eye Dog Australia? I love seeing
the working dogs in action. Now, as Matt mentioned in
his conversation there, there are in Australia two main companies
that train and provide dog guides. There is seeing Eye
Dogs Australia and Guide Dogs Australia. Now being quite parochial
(22:09):
here in Western Australia and I think Matt touched on it,
Perth was the first place in Australia to start using
guide dogs. That was after someone called Arnold Cooke went
over to England and learnt about the use of guide dogs.
And then he came back here to Perth and then said, well,
let's get these up and running. And he decided that
(22:31):
the assistance of a dog was very beneficial for people
who were blind, and then started up the guide dog
school here in Perth, and it spread across Australia. So
well done us here in Perth. Yeah.
S2 (22:43):
Yeah. Exactly. Simon. And in Australia, the preferred dog breed
is a Labrador. And it's historically always been the case.
Since guide dogs were developed in Australia in the 1950s.
The Labrador or Labrador cross is favoured because it's a
good sized dog. It's affectionate, even tempered, and it's neither
(23:05):
fast nor too lethargic.
S1 (23:07):
Whilst we all know there is some very intelligent dogs
out there like the Kelpies and the collies, as we've
seen on the television program I mentioned earlier. But they
like to do their work constantly, and I've seen many
dog guides that you walk to the office, you sit
down for a long time, then you walk again at
lunchtime and you sit down for a long time. A
(23:28):
kelpie wouldn't like sitting around for long periods of time,
so that was one of the things you just mentioned
about the temperament of a Labrador. They're pretty easygoing as
well as being quite intelligent and easy to train, so
they're a good choice.
S2 (23:42):
They need to be okay with walking slowly and not
constantly running around.
S1 (23:47):
That's right. German Shepherds were one of the first dogs
that were used to assist the blind in Germany when
this idea was first started, and when the idea was
taken to America, they were used. German Shepherds were used
as well. But again, across the world most people use
the Labrador or similar types of breeds like that. Slight tangent.
(24:07):
Note I knew a fellow Mark, who had a Rottweiler,
and he had it certified by seeing eye dogs over
here in Perth, and it did catch the attention of
most people to see someone, a blind person using a
Rottweiler as their assistance dog.
S2 (24:22):
Yeah, I can definitely say I've never seen that.
S1 (24:26):
No, no, it was very unusual. And a key.
S2 (24:29):
Point as well to note is when they are working,
you're not to pat them or distract them, which can
be really hard because previously we had Caitlyn in the
studio who has a beautiful guide dog named Rennie, and
while we were interviewing her, he put his head on
my feet and looked up at me and I'm like, Rennie,
(24:49):
you know I can't patch you right now. So as
hard as it can be and tempting, definitely don't.
S1 (24:57):
And that's right. And we're here at Vision Australia Radio
are very accepting of having guide dogs and seeing our
dogs in the studio. However, there are still a lot
of misinformed people who don't allow people who are using
a dog guide into their restaurant or more importantly, into
their cab or into their Uber. And this causes a
(25:20):
lot of problems, and it's quite a big issue. And
it's in the media all the time. This is just
not acceptable. There are laws in place, especially for taxis
and especially for restaurants and theaters and wherever else, that
if a blind person is using a dog guide, They're
allowed to go everywhere else. There's only two main areas
(25:42):
a dog guide can't go, and that's the zoo and
certain parts of the hospital.
S2 (25:47):
Yeah, definitely think it would be problematic in the zoo.
S1 (25:51):
Yeah. And, um, it is a big push from a
lot of the advocacy organizations. And there is a special
advocacy organization and peer support organization that I'd like to
shout out to. It's called Dog Guide Handlers Australia, and
they are just a bunch of volunteers who get together
(26:11):
to try to lobby, bring better representation to people who
are using dog guides and well done to them.
S2 (26:18):
Yeah, very, very interesting Simon, and definitely some good points
made there. I really enjoyed this interview. It was very,
very good to speak to Matt and just learn what
is involved and what goes into training these dogs. So yeah,
it was a great interview and thank you so much.
And I'll just have a reminder to everyone that we
(26:39):
would love any feedback that you can give us. Anything
you want to say. Or if you're interested in even
coming on the show for any particular reason, you can
flick us an email. Our email is in plain sight
at Vision Australia. Org that's in plain sight at Vision Australia. Org.
So thank you so much.
S1 (27:00):
Thanks a lot for joining us here on In Plain
Sight and Vision Australia Radio. Join us again sometime very soon.
And you can look up all the local guides on
VA radio.org and on demand on all the major platforms
for podcasts. Speak to you soon. Bye for now.
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