February 11, 2025 • 28 mins
This week, we explore the language of Auslan with interpreter Linda Derozario. In this captivating conversation, Linda shares her personal experiences within the Deaf community, offering insightful reflections on the importance of connection, accessibility, and equality.
Learn Auslan: https://deafconnect.org.au/services/education
Auslan interpreting services: https://vipauslan.com.au/services/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:09):
Hi, I'm Simon.
S2 (00:10):
And I'm Abby. And you're listening to. In Plain Sight,
a program where we talk to people making a positive
impact in the community and disability sector, shining a light
on those who might otherwise be hidden in plain sight.
S1 (00:24):
And it's our pleasure to bring these really fabulous stories
to you on a weekly basis here on Vision Australia Radio.
S2 (00:33):
Welcome, everybody. And I'll start by asking, how are you, Simon?
S1 (00:38):
Hi, Abby. I'm well. Thanks. What have we got coming
up on this week's program? Abby.
S2 (00:42):
So this week we are speaking to Linda de Rosario.
She is an Auslan interpreter, and it's a very interesting
and engaging conversation about this language and everything that being
an Auslan interpreter entails. So according to the Australian Bureau
of Statistics, there are approximately 14% of Australians, or over
(01:03):
3 million people that have at least one long term
hearing disorder. Now, this is a significant amount of the population,
and it indicates just how important Auslan interpreters are. And
Deaf Australia estimates that closer to 20,000 people use Auslan
every day. And something else really interesting to note that
(01:23):
when I read this statistic, I was quite shocked is
that the 2021 census was the first time Auslan was
included as a language option.
S1 (01:34):
Yes. Now this is something that is featured a lot
within our conversation with Linda. And it gets talked about
in the broader disability community that Auslan is its own language.
So in the census you just talked about there in 2021,
it was recognised like other languages, verbal languages, but spoken
(01:55):
languages and written languages, that a lot of people who
are born into a deaf family or are born deaf
consider Auslan to be their that first language, their native tongue,
so to speak. And I find that fascinating and find
it really interesting. I don't mix with too many deaf people,
and that's why I found this conversation coming up to
(02:17):
be so enlightening. And it's why I really get quite
a buzz from doing this program and meeting these really
interesting people, because I learn so much every week, every
time we talk to people. And I hope you all
out there find it just as interesting as we do
presenting it.
S2 (02:35):
Yeah. It was it was a really awesome interview. I
actually lost time during recording. I was too engaged in
the conversation. So if that isn't a sign of how
captivating this interview is, anyway, we really hope that you
enjoy this interview as much as we did.
S1 (02:50):
Yes, so many threads within our conversations throughout our programs
thus far are all kind of linked in that we
are building a community here on air and helping to
enhance the community out there in the physical world as well.
And there are different segments within our broader society. But
we are bringing them together with a common unity. And
(03:14):
we'd like to thank everyone for being part of that.
S2 (03:16):
Yeah, it's a it's a big passion on this show
to promote community. So if you have any community events
or things like that that you would like to promote,
please send us an email. We would love to promote
that on air for you. Our email address is in
plain sight at Vision Australia. Org that's in plain sight
at Vision australia.org. So thank you very much. And we'll
(03:39):
present this really lovely interview for you now.
S1 (03:48):
Hello Linda. Thanks for joining us.
S3 (03:49):
Hello. Thanks for inviting me.
S1 (03:51):
Now we'll get straight into just the bare basics first.
I think most people would know, but can you tell
us what Auslan is, please?
S3 (03:57):
Auslan. Okay, so it's a acronym. It stands for Australian
Sign Language. And it's used in the deaf community for language.
S1 (04:06):
So there is different sign languages to use that terminology
for different countries around the world. Yes.
S3 (04:12):
Correct. Yes.
S1 (04:14):
And so how do a deaf person from Australia communicate
with a deaf person in Britain or France?
S3 (04:21):
Good question. So if a deaf person from Australia went
to England or Britain, um, it's very, very similar because
we had our language derived from them. So they have
a couple of variances. But if they were to go
to France, completely different. But the beauty about sign language
is it's visual. So a lot of it is gestural.
(04:43):
So body language. So a deaf person would be able
to communicate with a person from another country that uses
a different sign language better than a hearing person would
be able to speak to another person from a different
language because it's all visual. 70% of it is visual. 30%
of the language is the lexicalized signs.
S1 (05:01):
Interesting side note how does that go in some of
those European countries where they're very gestural. Right. Anyway. Right.
Is it more. Okay.
S3 (05:11):
We have some Australian deaf here. Um, who have, um,
European backgrounds. So they are very, like, flamboyant with their signs.
And that's just part of their personality. Just like if
you were to speak to somebody from Europe, their personalities
come out, they use their hands. I'm using my hands
right now, but you can see the background coming out
in their personality. Same as our deaf here. They would
(05:34):
sign very, very flamboyantly or faster or with more passion
or everybody's different. Everybody has their own signature.
S1 (05:41):
Linda, how did you get into becoming an Auslan interpreter?
S3 (05:45):
I had, um, I had a life before my children.
I had a very good job, uh, 9 to 5.
And when I had children, I didn't want a 9
to 5. I wanted to be at home. Mum and
I had three beautiful babies, but after the third, it
was like, I really need to use my brain a
bit more, so I didn't know which career I wanted
(06:07):
to go into. Um, my sister was already in Auslan
interpreter and she was living in New Zealand, and she said,
why don't you just do do that? You have the language.
Just then you can pick and choose your jobs. So
I did, I studied for the year and then went
straight into interpreting in 96 and have been doing it
ever since.
S1 (06:25):
Okay. Now you just entered there. You had the language.
Tell us how you were introduced to the Auslan in
the first place.
S3 (06:31):
So my mother was profoundly deaf at birth. So my
first language is Auslan and my mother had seven children
and we all use sign language fluently. We learnt English
sort of through our aunties and more so when we
went to school. But our first language, our mother tongue
is Auslan.
S2 (06:51):
So between all your siblings and and that you mainly
use sign language, then.
S3 (06:55):
At every dinner table, like there was seven of us
and mum was a single mum. Oh, wow. And she
always wanted to know how we did at school. So
we would sit around the table and we would take
it in turns to talk about our our day in
sign language, which was great, because when you weren't signing,
you were able to eat right. So we took it
(07:16):
in turns around the table. So that's just how we
lived our life. So it was very normal for us
to sign. If mum wasn't in the room, I think
that we probably did pick up our hands just to
gesture a little bit, but we sort of used our
voices as well. But yeah, every time a deaf person
is in the room, it automatically the hands come up.
You start signing, and if a deaf person and a
(07:36):
hearing person is in the room, we sort of code switch.
We do both sign and speak at the same time,
which is not great because we sort of ruin both
languages at the same time because they're both very, very different.
But it can be done and it can be understood,
but it's not fluent in both languages.
S1 (07:56):
Can you give us an example of how Auslan is
a different language to to English?
S3 (08:03):
Sure.
S1 (08:03):
Yeah. Like spoken English that is.
S3 (08:05):
Yeah. So English, as we know, is linear. It's one
word at a time. You can only say one word
at a time. And it's structured differently. So you have.
And I never got this right in school because it
was my second language. You have like a subject, a
topic time, that sort of stuff. There's a there's a
structure in English in Auslan. It's time. Topic comment. So
(08:28):
we will say the time first. If there is time
in that sentence and then the topic and the comment.
But sometimes the topic can comment can get into interchanged
as well. So if I said to you I'm going
to the beach tomorrow in sign language, I would say
tomorrow go beach. I wouldn't say I am going to
the beach tomorrow. It'll just be tomorrow. Because now you
(08:50):
know when I'm talking. It's about tomorrow. Where am I going? Beach.
And I'm going. So the structure is very, very different.
Just like in other spoken languages. The structure of how
you say things is different to English. Auslan is the same,
but have to remember that in Auslan it's a visual language.
(09:10):
So you have to give the visual, not just the structure.
S2 (09:15):
And it's obviously not about grammar.
S3 (09:17):
It's we have our own grammar and our own syntax
and own everything. It's a very, very well structured language,
just different to English. That's why you can't do them
at the same time.
S1 (09:27):
So given your family background, you were born into that language.
How does someone who is not born into that kind
of family background become an interpreter? And what are some
of the skills and techniques that someone needs to go
to become a professional?
S3 (09:44):
I think with any language, I'm not sure because I'm not.
We call them, I shouldn't say this on my own.
Nerds not even related to deaf, but what a term.
I know it's terrible, isn't it? It's terrible. But they
would learn Auslan like anybody would learn a second language.
They would. They would find it hard sometimes to get
(10:04):
the nuance of a first language, because even in English
we have words that we say that we understand because
we understand the root of the language. Same as in
sign language. So if you're learning it as a second language,
we're talking Auslan. Now you have to immerse yourself so
much into the community. But if I were to say
to learn Italian, I could go to Italy and really
(10:25):
immerse myself in language and culture and food. And I
would learn a lot of the nuances of the language.
But with Auslan, because there's no Auslan, there's no deaf
land that we can go to immerse ourselves. Our only
option is things like, um, the deaf club or social
events that we could go to. Even then, it's sort
of sporadic. So you can't really immerse yourself as much.
S2 (10:48):
Is that.
S3 (10:49):
Well.
S2 (10:50):
Uh. Well, reciprocated. Like well accepted. As in, if you're
someone that isn't deaf, that's learning Auslan and then going
to a deaf club and stuff like that, is that.
S3 (10:59):
Well it is. I mean, there are we do encourage
there's a lot of events that happen that we do
encourage students to Students to come to so that they
can immerse themselves into that language and learn. And every
deaf person has their signature of signing as well. So
the more that the students come to these activities outside
of their study, the more they immerse themselves in the
deaf community. Get to know the registers of deaf people
(11:22):
because there's different registers, like some people don't understand that.
Like when you speak to a child, you would use
a different register. You'd go, hi, how are you going today?
And you sort of have that singsong voice so the
child can relate and learn, learn to trust and chat
with you. It's the same in sign language. If I'm
talking to a child, I'll bring my signs down. I'll
(11:44):
bring them more articulate. I would, um, there would be
more baby signs. So then if I'm talking to my
mum or dad, it's, um, more fingerspelling because that's how
they were raised when they went to school. There was
a lot of fingerspelling less sign, so I would change
my register to a more fingerspelling for my mum and dad.
But if I was signing to somebody in a business setting,
(12:05):
I would use more nuanced signs. So it's all very different.
Same as in English. There's um, language that you would
use with technology, and there's language that we use in
the medical field, and there's language that you would use
in kindergarten.
S1 (12:20):
Different situations, different settings.
S3 (12:22):
Absolutely.
S1 (12:23):
Different jargon and so on. Yes. Now, you mentioned the
word community there a few times, and that's one of
our running themes within this show. I'd like to enhance
and promote community involvement, and I'd like to also demonstrate
different forms of community. There are several kinds of deaf communities,
isn't there some who are born deaf, some acquire deafness,
(12:45):
there's hard of hearing and there's all these different things.
So how would you define the deaf community? And can
you tell us about the capital D in deaf?
S3 (12:54):
Sure. So yes, there are different pockets in the deaf community.
So the capital D that you refer to is if
somebody is born deaf, learn sign language as their language
and then absorbs themselves into the deaf community. They are
proud deaf people and they wear that capital D quite proudly.
(13:16):
The other deaf is a lowercase deaf. So if people
go hard of hearing or they have a hearing impairment,
but don't use the language and don't immerse in the community,
that's that category lowercase deaf. They are more in the
hearing world than the deaf world, but they're just deaf.
S1 (13:33):
Okay. And so someone who might acquire deafness later in life,
how do they learn Auslan.
S3 (13:40):
At the deaf club? Um, when I was growing up,
we had a very, very strong deaf community. That deaf
community has sort of dwindled over the years because our
I think it's because our, we we did have a
deaf school where my mum and dad went to, uh, yeah.
Mosman Park on the hill, we call it the House
(14:00):
on the Hill. It's just been taken over by the government,
I think. So they had that sense of community and
when that got fractured and they put the deaf students
into mainstream schools, sometimes a child only had an interpreter.
And no, nobody else deaf in the school, so they
couldn't identify with anybody else in the school. So then
(14:21):
the deaf community kind of become very fractured because they
had nobody where they could say, oh, you're like me.
I remember going to the deaf community every Friday night
with my mum, and that was her way of connecting.
So seven days of the week she'd be with hearing people,
including us, seven children. Even though we could sign, we
(14:41):
were kids. She didn't have adult conversation. So every Friday
night we went to the deaf community, and that's where
she mixed and got to know about the gossip, about
what's going on in the world and all that sort
of stuff. And that's where The Long Goodbye came, which
was very, very cultural, which means that they know they're
not going to see each other again for seven days.
So then they'll go, yeah, bye bye bye. The club
(15:03):
would close at 12 and they had street lamps outside
of the hotel, and they would sit under street lamps
and keep talking, saying, yeah, don't forget, I'll come and
see you because they couldn't pick up the telephone back
then either and say, look, I'll come and see you
later on. They had to actually go to the house,
knock on their door, and if they were home, great.
If they weren't. What a waste of a trip. So
they would catch up at these deaf clubs and us seven.
(15:24):
We were fine. We would run around the tennis courts
and have fun. Most of it was summer anyway, so
they used that as a long goodbye. Now sometimes there'll
be another two hours before we actually left because. Yeah,
because that catch up, that conversation, the people that are
like me. But now that's really dwindled because community is
not as strong as it was when I was growing up.
We're trying to bring it back, but it's hard.
S1 (15:46):
Why? I brought up the subject because, um, within certain circles,
it's the pros and cons of an integrated society. Now,
moving into Auslan interpreting, especially during the Covid times, where
there was news 24 over seven on the TV with
politicians and health experts and just about everyone had an
(16:06):
slam interpreter. And we've also seen them in arts events
and so forth. So they've become quite the personality themselves.
What sort of arena areas do Auslan interpreting get done.
S3 (16:20):
Wherever there is people talking? Yes. And Auslan interpreters should
be there because it's access since Covid. You're absolutely right.
It has got a face now. Like like sometimes when
you go to an activity and there's no Auslan interpreter,
it's like, oh where's the Auslan interpreter. There should be
one here. So yeah. Mark McGowan did a great job
with Fiona Perry there at all of his press conferences.
(16:43):
But but for the deaf it's also not good enough
because if they're only going to have an Auslan interpreter for,
you know, Covid floods, cyclones, everything, that's disastrous. That's all.
We're going to have online interpreters for the good things
in life. What about, you know, the good news and
and everything else that goes by the wayside with people
(17:03):
who can hear like we hear everything.
S1 (17:06):
Well in Perth at the moment. We've got the Fringe
Festival and shortly coming up not long after that will
be the Perth Festival. Big major arts festivals. Will that
be in a lot of those performances and events be
interpreted by professional Auslan interpreters?
S3 (17:20):
Not a lot, but yes, some because I think the
artist actually has to pay for the Auslan interpreter. And
it does get expensive because they don't make a lot
of money themselves out of the festival. The festival.
S1 (17:31):
The artist has to pay or.
S3 (17:32):
The. Yeah, the artist.
S1 (17:33):
Or the.
S3 (17:33):
Venue? Yeah, I have three nieces. They all do the
Fringe Festival every year. One's into comedy, one's into jazz,
and one's into burlesque. So when they do theirs, they
often have an Auslan interpreter because they understand how important
access is. And it's and it's community, the deaf community
coming out at night, going to the festival. I mean,
(17:54):
why can't they come out as well? So yes, the
artist does have to pay for it. If they're lucky,
their venue might, but I haven't heard.
S1 (18:03):
That's really interesting. And how does a deaf person today
hire or engage an interpreter.
S3 (18:11):
With the NDIS? They now have their funding so they
can have an Auslan interpreter at any event they want.
I've done births now with people using the NDIS, so
the mum has an interpreter in the room.
S2 (18:26):
Where is that? Was that not common?
S3 (18:28):
No. The hospitals would not provide because it was too long.
They didn't know when the baby was going to come. Therefore,
when does the interpreter get there? So now.
S2 (18:37):
Wouldn't the mother be so disorientated? She doesn't know what's
going on. The communication isn't there.
S3 (18:42):
But this isn't everything in life. Absolutely. And that's a
big one because that's a huge thing to go through. Yeah.
And the not knowing. So I've done it all. Yeah.
And funerals government do not or they they still don't
provide interpreters for funerals. So family. So they use their
NDIS for that. So the NDIS is great in that
respect that now they, they can decide whether they have
(19:05):
an interpreter at an event or not.
S1 (19:06):
But what about, um, on a similar tact? If I'm
holding an event? I think that someone who's deaf might
be coming. How do I hire or engage someone to
do Auslan interpreting and how does that process work? And
I've noticed that there's usually depending on how long it is,
it's um, there's often two people and there's a system
where the person has to wear black so their hands
(19:29):
are visible and that type of thing.
S3 (19:30):
Can you tell? Good.
S1 (19:32):
Yeah.
S3 (19:33):
Very good. I'm impressed.
S1 (19:35):
Um, can you tell us a little bit about that?
How does that work?
S3 (19:38):
So let's just go with the conference. So there's and
we've done a couple here in Perth. So first of all,
you contact the agency. So my agency is vital interpreting personnel. Um,
you would stipulate what it is that you wanted. How
many hours? How many days? If it's a conference, it's
usually 2 to 3 interpreters. And then before the conference,
the interpreters would get all the prep because. So so
(19:59):
they know what the the topics are about, what the
speeches are about, if there's any sort of language that
they have to work around with their signs and just
make sure that the interpreters are okay with what their
job is going to be. And then and that has
to be booked hopefully two months before, because the Auslan
interpreters diaries get filled up quite quickly because there is
(20:20):
a demand.
S1 (20:22):
Is there enough interpreters to meet that demand? Okay.
S3 (20:25):
That's a straight no. Yes. We need more. We definitely
need more. Through my agency, we must turn around about
4 to 10 jobs a week that we can't fill. Um,
and that's just interpreting because we also have communication guides
as well. So they're like support workers, but they they
can sign.
S1 (20:43):
We'll have to wind up this very interesting conversation very soon.
It's been fascinating. And it's given us a great insight
into the different world and the different community and the
different style of languages that are within our broader community
and society. Now, what would you like people to know about? Firstly,
deaf community and secondly about an asylum interpreter. Because if
(21:08):
we run into someone who's deaf and happens to be
with an asylum interpreter, it's difficult for us non sign
language people to communicate and we have to go through
the interpreter. How does that interaction.
S3 (21:20):
Sure. Okay. So so to start with if somebody were
to say that they were deaf, please don't respond with
oh I'm sorry I'm not a good start. They're quite
proud to be deaf. They love their language. They love
their community. Using an Auslan interpreter. Don't look at the
Auslan interpreter. The Auslan interpreter is only there as a conduit.
They're just giving the message in English and Auslan. Please
(21:43):
look at the deaf person. Now for the deaf person
will probably not look at you because they have to
look at the Auslan interpreter. And it does feel weird.
But after a couple of seconds you'll get used to it.
It's okay. Language still happens.
S1 (21:57):
This sounds like it might be a rude, ignorant question,
but to someone who's born deaf, can they read and
write English?
S3 (22:04):
Okay, no, they have to learn it, but they have
to learn it without hearing it.
S2 (22:11):
That's hard.
S3 (22:12):
Yeah, because a lot of what we hear, then we
can sort of reproduce, and then we know that we've
got it wrong, and we can keep practicing because we
can hear ourselves saying it.
S2 (22:23):
Spelling. And when you're young and and in primary school,
you learn to sound out the words so that you
can spell and so that you can read.
S3 (22:31):
Exactly.
S2 (22:32):
So that would.
S3 (22:32):
Be spoken language. And written English is very different. Yes.
Deaf people don't really understand that because why would they?
They don't hear the difference.
S2 (22:45):
I did want to interject with a question that I've
been wanting to ask about the term coda. I know
that it stands for child of a deaf adult.
S3 (22:54):
Correct. So all of us, seven, all of my siblings,
we're all codas because mum is obviously deaf, so. And
it just means that we live in both worlds. We
live in the hearing world and the deaf world. And
it's really hard sometimes to switch between. And sometimes we'll
bring our deaf culture into the hearing world. And it's
not looked at properly. And sometimes our hearing culture into
(23:17):
the deaf world and it and it's not looked at
properly as well. So we sort of live in the,
in the middle but firmly in both, if that makes
any sense. Yeah. So for me, if I meet a
deaf person for the first time, I will sign to them.
I will do all that. But I have to introduce
myself to say I am a coder. Mother, father, deaf.
(23:38):
So they know I'm not deaf because they. How else
would they know without me telling them? So I have
to introduce myself that way. Otherwise I feel that I'm
tricking them into them, believing that I am deaf. But
I'm not. So I have to. I have to start
with that. Mother. Father. Deaf. And then we move on.
S2 (23:55):
And a slight question that you might not be able
to answer, but a couple of weeks ago I saw
a movie called coda. I just wondered if you've heard
about that movie. Yes. And what you thought about it?
Because I thought it was it was really good, actually.
S3 (24:08):
It's actually the best depiction of a deaf family that
I have seen in the movies.
S2 (24:15):
Oh, really?
S3 (24:16):
Yeah. The best. And also because Marlee Matlin is in it.
She would have had something to say, but no. That
was one of the best representations of a deaf family
with a hearing child that I have seen. I've seen
others where the deaf mother might have said something or
somebody had turned around when they shouldn't have switched at birth.
(24:36):
It has its problems.
S2 (24:38):
Yes, I do.
S3 (24:38):
I've seen that. Yes, but you would only probably notice
it if you were a coda or a deaf person. Right.
Because we know what it looks like. And then if
somebody is coming in and producing something that doesn't have
any idea of the deaf community, they would get those nuances,
those subtleties wrong.
S2 (24:54):
Because I just thought that movie, for anyone that hasn't
seen it, I won't spoil it. But there is a
particular scene where the parents have gone to see a concert,
and the director has cut all sound from the point
of view of the parents, and it's really interesting to
see how they can enjoy a concert, but they can't
hear the their daughter singing, so they're just watching everyone.
(25:16):
And the teacher is like introducing the class, and they're
looking around like, I don't know what they're saying. And
then they.
S3 (25:22):
End up getting.
S2 (25:22):
Bored and very yeah.
S3 (25:25):
So real life. That was my mum all the way through,
raising seven children, just not knowing what the what the
hearing world is doing and just sitting there going, oh,
they're laughing. It must be something funny. Where is it
coming from?
S2 (25:38):
Yeah.
S3 (25:39):
Or looking around the room or everybody's smiling. Now somebody
has done something. Well, is that my daughter that did something.
Well it's. And then paranoia sets in and their mental
health issues start. And then it's a whole a whole thing. Yeah.
S1 (25:53):
So with that awareness from things like that movie and
other popular culture, do you see that things are improving
in the integration and awareness of people who are deaf
within our broader society.
S3 (26:10):
Look, if I were to go back and say, okay,
through my through my life. Yes, there's been improvement. Has
it been fast? Absolutely not. Have we got a long
way to go? Absolutely. There is still places that we
go to that just have no awareness. And we're talking
(26:30):
about Australians. My mum and dad are born here and
they don't get the access that all Australians get. They
don't get in their NDIS funding and things like that.
They don't sometimes they don't get enough money to have
that access. They're denied. Then they have to choose. Or
should I go to that christening or should I go
to my doctor's appointment today because I only have enough
(26:52):
money for one interpreter? So these are choices that they
have to make all the time. So. And that's unfair.
Do we have that problem as Australians hearing Australians? Well
that's a big no.
S1 (27:05):
It's a common thread amongst many of the conversations we have.
We'll finish with this final question. How does someone become
a professional Auslan interpreter? Where do people is there a
TAFE course? How do we encourage people to do that?
Because we mentioned that there are not enough and the
demand is quite high and probably growing.
S3 (27:26):
Correct. So yes. So the places that I would know
of is TAFE. So central TAFE or there's an RTO
Deaf Connect. They also do it as well.
S1 (27:36):
Deaf. Connect.
S3 (27:36):
Deaf connect. Yeah. So then you would go through your
certificates first or certificate 234. Then you do diploma and
then you do your interpreting course.
S1 (27:46):
Thank you for coming along today. And, uh, looking forward
to catching up with you another time.
S3 (27:51):
Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
S2 (27:53):
You're on Vision Australia Radio, and this is in plain
sight with Simon and Abby. And you can listen any
time on any of the major streaming platform services. Thank
you so much. And we'll see you next week.
Hi, I'm Simon.
S2 (00:10):
And I'm Abby. And you're listening to. In Plain Sight,
a program where we talk to people making a positive
impact in the community and disability sector, shining a light
on those who might otherwise be hidden in plain sight.
S1 (00:24):
And it's our pleasure to bring these really fabulous stories
to you on a weekly basis here on Vision Australia Radio.
S2 (00:33):
Welcome, everybody. And I'll start by asking, how are you, Simon?
S1 (00:38):
Hi, Abby. I'm well. Thanks. What have we got coming
up on this week's program? Abby.
S2 (00:42):
So this week we are speaking to Linda de Rosario.
She is an Auslan interpreter, and it's a very interesting
and engaging conversation about this language and everything that being
an Auslan interpreter entails. So according to the Australian Bureau
of Statistics, there are approximately 14% of Australians, or over
(01:03):
3 million people that have at least one long term
hearing disorder. Now, this is a significant amount of the population,
and it indicates just how important Auslan interpreters are. And
Deaf Australia estimates that closer to 20,000 people use Auslan
every day. And something else really interesting to note that
(01:23):
when I read this statistic, I was quite shocked is
that the 2021 census was the first time Auslan was
included as a language option.
S1 (01:34):
Yes. Now this is something that is featured a lot
within our conversation with Linda. And it gets talked about
in the broader disability community that Auslan is its own language.
So in the census you just talked about there in 2021,
it was recognised like other languages, verbal languages, but spoken
(01:55):
languages and written languages, that a lot of people who
are born into a deaf family or are born deaf
consider Auslan to be their that first language, their native tongue,
so to speak. And I find that fascinating and find
it really interesting. I don't mix with too many deaf people,
and that's why I found this conversation coming up to
(02:17):
be so enlightening. And it's why I really get quite
a buzz from doing this program and meeting these really
interesting people, because I learn so much every week, every
time we talk to people. And I hope you all
out there find it just as interesting as we do
presenting it.
S2 (02:35):
Yeah. It was it was a really awesome interview. I
actually lost time during recording. I was too engaged in
the conversation. So if that isn't a sign of how
captivating this interview is, anyway, we really hope that you
enjoy this interview as much as we did.
S1 (02:50):
Yes, so many threads within our conversations throughout our programs
thus far are all kind of linked in that we
are building a community here on air and helping to
enhance the community out there in the physical world as well.
And there are different segments within our broader society. But
we are bringing them together with a common unity. And
(03:14):
we'd like to thank everyone for being part of that.
S2 (03:16):
Yeah, it's a it's a big passion on this show
to promote community. So if you have any community events
or things like that that you would like to promote,
please send us an email. We would love to promote
that on air for you. Our email address is in
plain sight at Vision Australia. Org that's in plain sight
at Vision australia.org. So thank you very much. And we'll
(03:39):
present this really lovely interview for you now.
S1 (03:48):
Hello Linda. Thanks for joining us.
S3 (03:49):
Hello. Thanks for inviting me.
S1 (03:51):
Now we'll get straight into just the bare basics first.
I think most people would know, but can you tell
us what Auslan is, please?
S3 (03:57):
Auslan. Okay, so it's a acronym. It stands for Australian
Sign Language. And it's used in the deaf community for language.
S1 (04:06):
So there is different sign languages to use that terminology
for different countries around the world. Yes.
S3 (04:12):
Correct. Yes.
S1 (04:14):
And so how do a deaf person from Australia communicate
with a deaf person in Britain or France?
S3 (04:21):
Good question. So if a deaf person from Australia went
to England or Britain, um, it's very, very similar because
we had our language derived from them. So they have
a couple of variances. But if they were to go
to France, completely different. But the beauty about sign language
is it's visual. So a lot of it is gestural.
(04:43):
So body language. So a deaf person would be able
to communicate with a person from another country that uses
a different sign language better than a hearing person would
be able to speak to another person from a different
language because it's all visual. 70% of it is visual. 30%
of the language is the lexicalized signs.
S1 (05:01):
Interesting side note how does that go in some of
those European countries where they're very gestural. Right. Anyway. Right.
Is it more. Okay.
S3 (05:11):
We have some Australian deaf here. Um, who have, um,
European backgrounds. So they are very, like, flamboyant with their signs.
And that's just part of their personality. Just like if
you were to speak to somebody from Europe, their personalities
come out, they use their hands. I'm using my hands
right now, but you can see the background coming out
in their personality. Same as our deaf here. They would
(05:34):
sign very, very flamboyantly or faster or with more passion
or everybody's different. Everybody has their own signature.
S1 (05:41):
Linda, how did you get into becoming an Auslan interpreter?
S3 (05:45):
I had, um, I had a life before my children.
I had a very good job, uh, 9 to 5.
And when I had children, I didn't want a 9
to 5. I wanted to be at home. Mum and
I had three beautiful babies, but after the third, it
was like, I really need to use my brain a
bit more, so I didn't know which career I wanted
(06:07):
to go into. Um, my sister was already in Auslan
interpreter and she was living in New Zealand, and she said,
why don't you just do do that? You have the language.
Just then you can pick and choose your jobs. So
I did, I studied for the year and then went
straight into interpreting in 96 and have been doing it
ever since.
S1 (06:25):
Okay. Now you just entered there. You had the language.
Tell us how you were introduced to the Auslan in
the first place.
S3 (06:31):
So my mother was profoundly deaf at birth. So my
first language is Auslan and my mother had seven children
and we all use sign language fluently. We learnt English
sort of through our aunties and more so when we
went to school. But our first language, our mother tongue
is Auslan.
S2 (06:51):
So between all your siblings and and that you mainly
use sign language, then.
S3 (06:55):
At every dinner table, like there was seven of us
and mum was a single mum. Oh, wow. And she
always wanted to know how we did at school. So
we would sit around the table and we would take
it in turns to talk about our our day in
sign language, which was great, because when you weren't signing,
you were able to eat right. So we took it
(07:16):
in turns around the table. So that's just how we
lived our life. So it was very normal for us
to sign. If mum wasn't in the room, I think
that we probably did pick up our hands just to
gesture a little bit, but we sort of used our
voices as well. But yeah, every time a deaf person
is in the room, it automatically the hands come up.
You start signing, and if a deaf person and a
(07:36):
hearing person is in the room, we sort of code switch.
We do both sign and speak at the same time,
which is not great because we sort of ruin both
languages at the same time because they're both very, very different.
But it can be done and it can be understood,
but it's not fluent in both languages.
S1 (07:56):
Can you give us an example of how Auslan is
a different language to to English?
S3 (08:03):
Sure.
S1 (08:03):
Yeah. Like spoken English that is.
S3 (08:05):
Yeah. So English, as we know, is linear. It's one
word at a time. You can only say one word
at a time. And it's structured differently. So you have.
And I never got this right in school because it
was my second language. You have like a subject, a
topic time, that sort of stuff. There's a there's a
structure in English in Auslan. It's time. Topic comment. So
(08:28):
we will say the time first. If there is time
in that sentence and then the topic and the comment.
But sometimes the topic can comment can get into interchanged
as well. So if I said to you I'm going
to the beach tomorrow in sign language, I would say
tomorrow go beach. I wouldn't say I am going to
the beach tomorrow. It'll just be tomorrow. Because now you
(08:50):
know when I'm talking. It's about tomorrow. Where am I going? Beach.
And I'm going. So the structure is very, very different.
Just like in other spoken languages. The structure of how
you say things is different to English. Auslan is the same,
but have to remember that in Auslan it's a visual language.
(09:10):
So you have to give the visual, not just the structure.
S2 (09:15):
And it's obviously not about grammar.
S3 (09:17):
It's we have our own grammar and our own syntax
and own everything. It's a very, very well structured language,
just different to English. That's why you can't do them
at the same time.
S1 (09:27):
So given your family background, you were born into that language.
How does someone who is not born into that kind
of family background become an interpreter? And what are some
of the skills and techniques that someone needs to go
to become a professional?
S3 (09:44):
I think with any language, I'm not sure because I'm not.
We call them, I shouldn't say this on my own.
Nerds not even related to deaf, but what a term.
I know it's terrible, isn't it? It's terrible. But they
would learn Auslan like anybody would learn a second language.
They would. They would find it hard sometimes to get
(10:04):
the nuance of a first language, because even in English
we have words that we say that we understand because
we understand the root of the language. Same as in
sign language. So if you're learning it as a second language,
we're talking Auslan. Now you have to immerse yourself so
much into the community. But if I were to say
to learn Italian, I could go to Italy and really
(10:25):
immerse myself in language and culture and food. And I
would learn a lot of the nuances of the language.
But with Auslan, because there's no Auslan, there's no deaf
land that we can go to immerse ourselves. Our only
option is things like, um, the deaf club or social
events that we could go to. Even then, it's sort
of sporadic. So you can't really immerse yourself as much.
S2 (10:48):
Is that.
S3 (10:49):
Well.
S2 (10:50):
Uh. Well, reciprocated. Like well accepted. As in, if you're
someone that isn't deaf, that's learning Auslan and then going
to a deaf club and stuff like that, is that.
S3 (10:59):
Well it is. I mean, there are we do encourage
there's a lot of events that happen that we do
encourage students to Students to come to so that they
can immerse themselves into that language and learn. And every
deaf person has their signature of signing as well. So
the more that the students come to these activities outside
of their study, the more they immerse themselves in the
deaf community. Get to know the registers of deaf people
(11:22):
because there's different registers, like some people don't understand that.
Like when you speak to a child, you would use
a different register. You'd go, hi, how are you going today?
And you sort of have that singsong voice so the
child can relate and learn, learn to trust and chat
with you. It's the same in sign language. If I'm
talking to a child, I'll bring my signs down. I'll
(11:44):
bring them more articulate. I would, um, there would be
more baby signs. So then if I'm talking to my
mum or dad, it's, um, more fingerspelling because that's how
they were raised when they went to school. There was
a lot of fingerspelling less sign, so I would change
my register to a more fingerspelling for my mum and dad.
But if I was signing to somebody in a business setting,
(12:05):
I would use more nuanced signs. So it's all very different.
Same as in English. There's um, language that you would
use with technology, and there's language that we use in
the medical field, and there's language that you would use
in kindergarten.
S1 (12:20):
Different situations, different settings.
S3 (12:22):
Absolutely.
S1 (12:23):
Different jargon and so on. Yes. Now, you mentioned the
word community there a few times, and that's one of
our running themes within this show. I'd like to enhance
and promote community involvement, and I'd like to also demonstrate
different forms of community. There are several kinds of deaf communities,
isn't there some who are born deaf, some acquire deafness,
(12:45):
there's hard of hearing and there's all these different things.
So how would you define the deaf community? And can
you tell us about the capital D in deaf?
S3 (12:54):
Sure. So yes, there are different pockets in the deaf community.
So the capital D that you refer to is if
somebody is born deaf, learn sign language as their language
and then absorbs themselves into the deaf community. They are
proud deaf people and they wear that capital D quite proudly.
(13:16):
The other deaf is a lowercase deaf. So if people
go hard of hearing or they have a hearing impairment,
but don't use the language and don't immerse in the community,
that's that category lowercase deaf. They are more in the
hearing world than the deaf world, but they're just deaf.
S1 (13:33):
Okay. And so someone who might acquire deafness later in life,
how do they learn Auslan.
S3 (13:40):
At the deaf club? Um, when I was growing up,
we had a very, very strong deaf community. That deaf
community has sort of dwindled over the years because our
I think it's because our, we we did have a
deaf school where my mum and dad went to, uh, yeah.
Mosman Park on the hill, we call it the House
(14:00):
on the Hill. It's just been taken over by the government,
I think. So they had that sense of community and
when that got fractured and they put the deaf students
into mainstream schools, sometimes a child only had an interpreter.
And no, nobody else deaf in the school, so they
couldn't identify with anybody else in the school. So then
(14:21):
the deaf community kind of become very fractured because they
had nobody where they could say, oh, you're like me.
I remember going to the deaf community every Friday night
with my mum, and that was her way of connecting.
So seven days of the week she'd be with hearing people,
including us, seven children. Even though we could sign, we
(14:41):
were kids. She didn't have adult conversation. So every Friday
night we went to the deaf community, and that's where
she mixed and got to know about the gossip, about
what's going on in the world and all that sort
of stuff. And that's where The Long Goodbye came, which
was very, very cultural, which means that they know they're
not going to see each other again for seven days.
So then they'll go, yeah, bye bye bye. The club
(15:03):
would close at 12 and they had street lamps outside
of the hotel, and they would sit under street lamps
and keep talking, saying, yeah, don't forget, I'll come and
see you because they couldn't pick up the telephone back
then either and say, look, I'll come and see you
later on. They had to actually go to the house,
knock on their door, and if they were home, great.
If they weren't. What a waste of a trip. So
they would catch up at these deaf clubs and us seven.
(15:24):
We were fine. We would run around the tennis courts
and have fun. Most of it was summer anyway, so
they used that as a long goodbye. Now sometimes there'll
be another two hours before we actually left because. Yeah,
because that catch up, that conversation, the people that are
like me. But now that's really dwindled because community is
not as strong as it was when I was growing up.
We're trying to bring it back, but it's hard.
S1 (15:46):
Why? I brought up the subject because, um, within certain circles,
it's the pros and cons of an integrated society. Now,
moving into Auslan interpreting, especially during the Covid times, where
there was news 24 over seven on the TV with
politicians and health experts and just about everyone had an
(16:06):
slam interpreter. And we've also seen them in arts events
and so forth. So they've become quite the personality themselves.
What sort of arena areas do Auslan interpreting get done.
S3 (16:20):
Wherever there is people talking? Yes. And Auslan interpreters should
be there because it's access since Covid. You're absolutely right.
It has got a face now. Like like sometimes when
you go to an activity and there's no Auslan interpreter,
it's like, oh where's the Auslan interpreter. There should be
one here. So yeah. Mark McGowan did a great job
with Fiona Perry there at all of his press conferences.
(16:43):
But but for the deaf it's also not good enough
because if they're only going to have an Auslan interpreter for,
you know, Covid floods, cyclones, everything, that's disastrous. That's all.
We're going to have online interpreters for the good things
in life. What about, you know, the good news and
and everything else that goes by the wayside with people
(17:03):
who can hear like we hear everything.
S1 (17:06):
Well in Perth at the moment. We've got the Fringe
Festival and shortly coming up not long after that will
be the Perth Festival. Big major arts festivals. Will that
be in a lot of those performances and events be
interpreted by professional Auslan interpreters?
S3 (17:20):
Not a lot, but yes, some because I think the
artist actually has to pay for the Auslan interpreter. And
it does get expensive because they don't make a lot
of money themselves out of the festival. The festival.
S1 (17:31):
The artist has to pay or.
S3 (17:32):
The. Yeah, the artist.
S1 (17:33):
Or the.
S3 (17:33):
Venue? Yeah, I have three nieces. They all do the
Fringe Festival every year. One's into comedy, one's into jazz,
and one's into burlesque. So when they do theirs, they
often have an Auslan interpreter because they understand how important
access is. And it's and it's community, the deaf community
coming out at night, going to the festival. I mean,
(17:54):
why can't they come out as well? So yes, the
artist does have to pay for it. If they're lucky,
their venue might, but I haven't heard.
S1 (18:03):
That's really interesting. And how does a deaf person today
hire or engage an interpreter.
S3 (18:11):
With the NDIS? They now have their funding so they
can have an Auslan interpreter at any event they want.
I've done births now with people using the NDIS, so
the mum has an interpreter in the room.
S2 (18:26):
Where is that? Was that not common?
S3 (18:28):
No. The hospitals would not provide because it was too long.
They didn't know when the baby was going to come. Therefore,
when does the interpreter get there? So now.
S2 (18:37):
Wouldn't the mother be so disorientated? She doesn't know what's
going on. The communication isn't there.
S3 (18:42):
But this isn't everything in life. Absolutely. And that's a
big one because that's a huge thing to go through. Yeah.
And the not knowing. So I've done it all. Yeah.
And funerals government do not or they they still don't
provide interpreters for funerals. So family. So they use their
NDIS for that. So the NDIS is great in that
respect that now they, they can decide whether they have
(19:05):
an interpreter at an event or not.
S1 (19:06):
But what about, um, on a similar tact? If I'm
holding an event? I think that someone who's deaf might
be coming. How do I hire or engage someone to
do Auslan interpreting and how does that process work? And
I've noticed that there's usually depending on how long it is,
it's um, there's often two people and there's a system
where the person has to wear black so their hands
(19:29):
are visible and that type of thing.
S3 (19:30):
Can you tell? Good.
S1 (19:32):
Yeah.
S3 (19:33):
Very good. I'm impressed.
S1 (19:35):
Um, can you tell us a little bit about that?
How does that work?
S3 (19:38):
So let's just go with the conference. So there's and
we've done a couple here in Perth. So first of all,
you contact the agency. So my agency is vital interpreting personnel. Um,
you would stipulate what it is that you wanted. How
many hours? How many days? If it's a conference, it's
usually 2 to 3 interpreters. And then before the conference,
the interpreters would get all the prep because. So so
(19:59):
they know what the the topics are about, what the
speeches are about, if there's any sort of language that
they have to work around with their signs and just
make sure that the interpreters are okay with what their
job is going to be. And then and that has
to be booked hopefully two months before, because the Auslan
interpreters diaries get filled up quite quickly because there is
(20:20):
a demand.
S1 (20:22):
Is there enough interpreters to meet that demand? Okay.
S3 (20:25):
That's a straight no. Yes. We need more. We definitely
need more. Through my agency, we must turn around about
4 to 10 jobs a week that we can't fill. Um,
and that's just interpreting because we also have communication guides
as well. So they're like support workers, but they they
can sign.
S1 (20:43):
We'll have to wind up this very interesting conversation very soon.
It's been fascinating. And it's given us a great insight
into the different world and the different community and the
different style of languages that are within our broader community
and society. Now, what would you like people to know about? Firstly,
deaf community and secondly about an asylum interpreter. Because if
(21:08):
we run into someone who's deaf and happens to be
with an asylum interpreter, it's difficult for us non sign
language people to communicate and we have to go through
the interpreter. How does that interaction.
S3 (21:20):
Sure. Okay. So so to start with if somebody were
to say that they were deaf, please don't respond with
oh I'm sorry I'm not a good start. They're quite
proud to be deaf. They love their language. They love
their community. Using an Auslan interpreter. Don't look at the
Auslan interpreter. The Auslan interpreter is only there as a conduit.
They're just giving the message in English and Auslan. Please
(21:43):
look at the deaf person. Now for the deaf person
will probably not look at you because they have to
look at the Auslan interpreter. And it does feel weird.
But after a couple of seconds you'll get used to it.
It's okay. Language still happens.
S1 (21:57):
This sounds like it might be a rude, ignorant question,
but to someone who's born deaf, can they read and
write English?
S3 (22:04):
Okay, no, they have to learn it, but they have
to learn it without hearing it.
S2 (22:11):
That's hard.
S3 (22:12):
Yeah, because a lot of what we hear, then we
can sort of reproduce, and then we know that we've
got it wrong, and we can keep practicing because we
can hear ourselves saying it.
S2 (22:23):
Spelling. And when you're young and and in primary school,
you learn to sound out the words so that you
can spell and so that you can read.
S3 (22:31):
Exactly.
S2 (22:32):
So that would.
S3 (22:32):
Be spoken language. And written English is very different. Yes.
Deaf people don't really understand that because why would they?
They don't hear the difference.
S2 (22:45):
I did want to interject with a question that I've
been wanting to ask about the term coda. I know
that it stands for child of a deaf adult.
S3 (22:54):
Correct. So all of us, seven, all of my siblings,
we're all codas because mum is obviously deaf, so. And
it just means that we live in both worlds. We
live in the hearing world and the deaf world. And
it's really hard sometimes to switch between. And sometimes we'll
bring our deaf culture into the hearing world. And it's
not looked at properly. And sometimes our hearing culture into
(23:17):
the deaf world and it and it's not looked at
properly as well. So we sort of live in the,
in the middle but firmly in both, if that makes
any sense. Yeah. So for me, if I meet a
deaf person for the first time, I will sign to them.
I will do all that. But I have to introduce
myself to say I am a coder. Mother, father, deaf.
(23:38):
So they know I'm not deaf because they. How else
would they know without me telling them? So I have
to introduce myself that way. Otherwise I feel that I'm
tricking them into them, believing that I am deaf. But
I'm not. So I have to. I have to start
with that. Mother. Father. Deaf. And then we move on.
S2 (23:55):
And a slight question that you might not be able
to answer, but a couple of weeks ago I saw
a movie called coda. I just wondered if you've heard
about that movie. Yes. And what you thought about it?
Because I thought it was it was really good, actually.
S3 (24:08):
It's actually the best depiction of a deaf family that
I have seen in the movies.
S2 (24:15):
Oh, really?
S3 (24:16):
Yeah. The best. And also because Marlee Matlin is in it.
She would have had something to say, but no. That
was one of the best representations of a deaf family
with a hearing child that I have seen. I've seen
others where the deaf mother might have said something or
somebody had turned around when they shouldn't have switched at birth.
(24:36):
It has its problems.
S2 (24:38):
Yes, I do.
S3 (24:38):
I've seen that. Yes, but you would only probably notice
it if you were a coda or a deaf person. Right.
Because we know what it looks like. And then if
somebody is coming in and producing something that doesn't have
any idea of the deaf community, they would get those nuances,
those subtleties wrong.
S2 (24:54):
Because I just thought that movie, for anyone that hasn't
seen it, I won't spoil it. But there is a
particular scene where the parents have gone to see a concert,
and the director has cut all sound from the point
of view of the parents, and it's really interesting to
see how they can enjoy a concert, but they can't
hear the their daughter singing, so they're just watching everyone.
(25:16):
And the teacher is like introducing the class, and they're
looking around like, I don't know what they're saying. And
then they.
S3 (25:22):
End up getting.
S2 (25:22):
Bored and very yeah.
S3 (25:25):
So real life. That was my mum all the way through,
raising seven children, just not knowing what the what the
hearing world is doing and just sitting there going, oh,
they're laughing. It must be something funny. Where is it
coming from?
S2 (25:38):
Yeah.
S3 (25:39):
Or looking around the room or everybody's smiling. Now somebody
has done something. Well, is that my daughter that did something.
Well it's. And then paranoia sets in and their mental
health issues start. And then it's a whole a whole thing. Yeah.
S1 (25:53):
So with that awareness from things like that movie and
other popular culture, do you see that things are improving
in the integration and awareness of people who are deaf
within our broader society.
S3 (26:10):
Look, if I were to go back and say, okay,
through my through my life. Yes, there's been improvement. Has
it been fast? Absolutely not. Have we got a long
way to go? Absolutely. There is still places that we
go to that just have no awareness. And we're talking
(26:30):
about Australians. My mum and dad are born here and
they don't get the access that all Australians get. They
don't get in their NDIS funding and things like that.
They don't sometimes they don't get enough money to have
that access. They're denied. Then they have to choose. Or
should I go to that christening or should I go
to my doctor's appointment today because I only have enough
(26:52):
money for one interpreter? So these are choices that they
have to make all the time. So. And that's unfair.
Do we have that problem as Australians hearing Australians? Well
that's a big no.
S1 (27:05):
It's a common thread amongst many of the conversations we have.
We'll finish with this final question. How does someone become
a professional Auslan interpreter? Where do people is there a
TAFE course? How do we encourage people to do that?
Because we mentioned that there are not enough and the
demand is quite high and probably growing.
S3 (27:26):
Correct. So yes. So the places that I would know
of is TAFE. So central TAFE or there's an RTO
Deaf Connect. They also do it as well.
S1 (27:36):
Deaf. Connect.
S3 (27:36):
Deaf connect. Yeah. So then you would go through your
certificates first or certificate 234. Then you do diploma and
then you do your interpreting course.
S1 (27:46):
Thank you for coming along today. And, uh, looking forward
to catching up with you another time.
S3 (27:51):
Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
S2 (27:53):
You're on Vision Australia Radio, and this is in plain
sight with Simon and Abby. And you can listen any
time on any of the major streaming platform services. Thank
you so much. And we'll see you next week.
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