December 2, 2025 • 28 mins
From a young age Nihal Iscel has been assisting others and acting as an advocate. This week, Simon had a fascinating conversation with this passionate and strong woman with a vast knowledge gained from a variety of life experiences.
International Day of People with Disability is recognised each year on 3 December. Nihal suggests that this year's theme, 'Fostering disability inclusive societies for advancing social progress’, could perhaps be considered a proper 'celebration' when we have reached full and meaningful inclusion for all.
Learn what this means and so much more from someone who has worked hard to create change to benefit others since she was a child, both in her country of birth Türkiye, and Australia.
We are all part of one community and we all have an equal role to play within that community.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to In Plain Sight, a program where
we highlight people who are making a positive impact in
the community and disability sector.
S2 (00:25):
Shining a light on those who would be otherwise hidden
in plain sight.
S1 (00:29):
And it's a pleasure to bring you these stories on
a weekly basis with you here on Vision Australia Radio.
Hello there Simon, how are you this week?
S2 (00:37):
Hi, Andrew. I'm great. Great to be here in the studio.
It's great that we are approaching the summer. I look
forward to summer. Uh, but I won't be saying that
in January when it's 40 degrees every day. And I'm
looking forward to this program today because it's an important
program this this week, because we're all talking about the
International Day of People with disabilities, or it's otherwise known
(00:58):
in UN circles as, um, what's it called? Andrew.
S1 (01:01):
It's the International Day of Persons with disabilities, plural.
S2 (01:06):
And Andrew, what is the theme for this year for
International Day of People with disabilities?
S1 (01:09):
Uh, the theme is fostering disability inclusive societies for advancing
social progress.
S2 (01:16):
And it's an interesting interesting terms fostering progress. And it's interesting,
especially in a country like Australia where we actually still
do need to foster progress and develop what I call
full inclusion. My definition of full inclusion is that you
might be welcomed into the building, but if you can't
(01:37):
access all the facilities within that building, then you're not
fully included. And it's interesting just to, uh, go forward
a little bit into what what's happening next week, which
is International Day of Human Rights. A person with a
disability should not have any different human rights to anybody
else within this planet. Um, and it's interesting that we,
(02:02):
in some cases, celebrate the day of International Day of
People with disabilities as acknowledging all the advantages and advantages
that we have made in regards to inclusion and accessibility.
And of course, in a prosperous country like Australia, that's
quite evident. But in other countries that are less prosperous,
(02:25):
less economically stable and politically stable, these things are not
as obvious. And the UN has some things to say
about that, don't they, Andrew?
S1 (02:34):
Well, yes. I mean, there was a recent, uh, Second
World Summit of Social development that was held in Doha
just earlier this month, 4th to the 6th of November.
And from that, there were world leaders that reaffirmed their
commitment to building a just, inclusive and equitable world, which
includes people with disability and so forth. So there was
(02:54):
a whole lot of, um, of things that were drawn
out from this, including some of the the risks, if
you like, that people that still exist, you know, the
recognition is there and so forth, but nevertheless, the risks
persist for things like high risks of poverty and and
limited access to decent work and lower wages. And it's
(03:16):
all those things which sometimes, you know, we kind of
take for granted. But you still need to keep advocating. Yes.
S2 (03:23):
And even in Australia, if you live in a capital
city or a major rural regional city or major town,
you might have reasonable services. If you live outside of
those types of areas in more remote and regional areas,
and in particular, if you consider Aboriginal communities in remote
areas in the northern parts of Australia, disability services is
(03:47):
often non-existent, so they often rely on the old fashioned
community support, where people from the community look after each
other and it's not reliant on government or non-government charity services.
And it's interesting that in Australia I saw statistics saying
(04:08):
that the amount of people unemployed if you have a
disability is double that of a person who does not
have a disability. So you have to try doubly hard
to find that job. If you have a disability. And
it's still quite obvious that the more to use a
term more severe, the more impacting your disability is for you,
(04:30):
the more difficult some people find it to place you
in gainful, rightful employment. And that leads us on to
the interview that's coming up very soon with Niall before
you were I know you've worked on Vision Australia Radio
and print Handicapped Radio in the past from your observances.
(04:50):
As someone who doesn't identify as having a disability, what
do you make of days like this?
S1 (04:55):
They're always important and you need to keep with the
advocacy and to improve basic human human rights and and
and dignity. You know, things have changed in the years.
You know, a number of years ago, I used to
work with an arts organization in Melbourne, which was all
about advocating for access for people to get to theatre
(05:18):
and performances and so forth. That's changed a lot. Now,
you know, that took a lot of hard work. Things
have changed, things have improved. But there's always a need
to to improve. And until and it's an interesting thing
that comes up with our guest in the interview that's
coming up shortly, as you've mentioned, until essentially everyone's on
(05:38):
the same page for want of a better term, advocacy
needs to continue and continue apace.
S2 (05:45):
Now, we will move into the interview now. And it's
really interesting what we discovered by talking to Niall, her
personal experiences of someone who is blind, but also who
has been in an active member of our community, and
to see some of her personal experiences of inclusion and
not non-inclusion within her work and study roles. So I
(06:07):
hope you enjoy the interview. It's coming up for you now.
This week our program is aimed at the International Day
of People with disabilities, and the theme for this year's
International Day of People with disabilities is all about fostering
and advancing progress for people with disabilities. And I'm really
(06:29):
pleased and proud to have in the studio with me
today a very active disability advocate. Nicole. Hi, Nicole. How
are you going? Welcome.
S3 (06:37):
Thank you. Simon. It's nice to be here with you again.
S2 (06:40):
Yeah. It's good to be with you today. And I
thought you were the perfect candidate to come in and
speak with us today about this really great observance. It's
sort of spoken about in reverent terms in different circles.
And if you look up the United Nations website about
this day, they call it something slightly different because it's
(07:01):
international and they call it International Day of Persons with
a disability. They call it Commemorating. Um, I like to
think of it as a celebration. How do you see
this day? Anyhow.
S3 (07:12):
It will be a celebration when we are fully included
in the community in all aspects of it in, in economic,
um participation, social, political and all aspects of community participation.
But at the moment, I don't feel that we are
I mean, I'm sure we've taken a we've gone a long,
(07:33):
long way. Most of us are, um, working. We've got
the beautiful NDIS to support us when it works. We're
somewhat halfway through there, but not fully there yet to
celebrate it.
S2 (07:47):
Um, just to catch people up. Niall is totally blind.
And you've been blind since birth, is that right? Yes. Yep.
And the other interesting thing about Niall. You were born
in Turkey.
S3 (07:58):
That's right.
S2 (07:58):
Yes. And you came over here as a young child
with your family.
S3 (08:02):
15.
S2 (08:02):
Oh, okay.
S3 (08:03):
Three weeks after my 15th birthday, I was here.
S2 (08:05):
So I also thought it'd be interesting to have you in,
because I know that you are still quite active in
the community in Turkey, and at one point you were
also collecting white canes to send over there. Is that right?
S3 (08:19):
That's right. Yes.
S2 (08:20):
Are you still doing that?
S3 (08:21):
Well, um, I'm not sure when I'm going next, so
I'm not doing it at the moment, but when it
comes closer to me going, I will probably ask for
more canes to take over. Yes.
S2 (08:33):
Yeah, sure. So once you got yourself and your family
got established here in Perth, I know from previously speaking
to you and your sister that you first had to
learn how to speak English and everything like that. So
just remind people what the services were like for a
person who was totally blind, let's say, when when you
(08:55):
were reaching about 18 or 20 years old even.
S3 (08:58):
Well, when I, when I came here, I was 15.
Then we lost a year in Kalgoorlie because they didn't
have the expertise or the experience to teach a blind
person who couldn't speak a word of English. So I
lost a year there. And then we came here. We
had a school for the blind, then called Sutherland Special
Support School. I went there for three months. I learned Braille,
(09:21):
English Braille, that is, I knew Braille, but I learned
English Braille. I learned how to use a typewriter. And
I was sent to a school very close to our house.
Someone came from the then Association for the blind and
showed me how to catch a bus, how to find
my way around how to use a cane. I thought
(09:41):
using a cane was so embarrassing and it's become a
part of my life. I wouldn't even leave the house
without it. Now it's just a sense of security, a
sense of safety. It's a wonderful thing that we have.
It gives us independence. But then I didn't think it was.
But I learned the services we used to get from
the Association for the blind We're really, really good. And
(10:05):
also they provided us textbooks in Braille and on tapes.
I was very happy. And the school school was very supportive,
you know. All the teachers were well experienced, not in
teaching a blind student, but teaching someone who couldn't speak English. And, um,
the teacher would sort of write or draw a picture
(10:28):
of an apple on a, um, on the board and
tell people that it's Apple, I wouldn't know. So what
she did was she somehow found some artificial fruits, vegetables,
brought them into the classroom, and she showed them to me.
So they were all so good. Very, very good. I
can't say anything bad about them.
S2 (10:47):
Do you have any idea when the separate school for
the blind closed?
S3 (10:52):
I can't remember the exact date, but by the end
of the 80s, it was closed.
S2 (10:56):
Yeah. So there are no. Mostly in Australia. I don't
think we have any schools for the blind anymore.
S3 (11:02):
No, and I'll just make a correction. It was not
the association for the blind that provided our textbooks. It
was the Sutherland. And then it became the Vision Impaired
Support Center. I think it's now based in Padbury, and
I think they're doing a great job.
S2 (11:16):
And for those who don't know, even in those times,
if you went to a regular mainstream school, you have
visiting teachers come to help people with vision impairment. Yes,
get their special learning. Yes. However, many times a week
or whatever, it was like that.
S3 (11:31):
Yes. And they all, um, read and wrote Braille. Um,
they were just lovely people. They were very supportive, um,
especially in my case when I, you know, was struggling
because it was a school where I was the only
blind student. I couldn't speak much English. I was really struggling.
(11:53):
And they were very supportive. They supported me. They supported
my teachers to support me.
S2 (11:58):
I'm curious to go back on something you mentioned before.
Can you tell us what the main differences are between
Turkish Braille and English Braille? Because a lot of people
don't know that. And it's similar to the sign language
for the deaf. There's Auslan, which is the sign language
for Australia. Aussie language for the blind. The deaf and
Braille is similar like that to every country has a
(12:21):
different version of Braille. What were the main differences in
Turkish Braille to English Braille or Australian Turkish alphabet?
S3 (12:32):
Is is the same as the. It's based on Latin alphabet,
but we have a few extra letters like chair, like
the English sh sound or the sh s-h sound. We've
got extra letters for that. And then we've got other, uh,
sounds that doesn't exist in English, like, uh uh uh um,
so for those, we have extra letters. Uh, that's okay,
(12:55):
but the abbreviations are different. Like, you have the th sound.
You've got like dots two, three, four, six represent th
e sound or dots one, four, five, six represent the word.
This or t represent on its own represents that. These
(13:20):
are very different in English and in Turkish, because in
Turkish you have different signs representing different Turkish words. Wow. Yeah.
S2 (13:28):
So you had to be bilingual in seven different ways? Yes.
When you were young, like before you came to Australia,
were you was Braille your main form of written language only? Only.
S3 (13:40):
And and tapes, of course. Yes.
S2 (13:43):
Okay. Yeah. And so you. Because you said you learnt
how to type here when you came here as a child. Uh,
15 or 16.
S3 (13:50):
Well, Turkish keyboard is different as well.
S2 (13:52):
Oh, is it.
S3 (13:53):
Because of the extra letters?
S2 (13:55):
Because of the extra letters? Mm. That's fascinating. That's why, um,
I was really keen to have a chat to you Niall,
not only because of your background, but because the variety
of knowledge that you bring to the table.
S3 (14:07):
Thank you. Can I say in 2009 I went back
to Turkey and I found the Braille book. I couldn't
even read a word of it.
S2 (14:17):
Okay.
S3 (14:17):
I just could not because I knew the letters, but
I had no idea about the abbreviations. It had all changed.
S2 (14:25):
Okay.
S3 (14:25):
It changed. It was reformed. It was changed. I just
couldn't understand it.
S2 (14:29):
I thought people were going to tell you. You spoke
with an Australian accent.
S3 (14:33):
No, I speak perfect Turkish. Yeah. They don't even get it. Yeah,
that I speak English.
S2 (14:38):
Um, so you studied psychology at university? Is that right?
S3 (14:42):
That's right. Yes.
S2 (14:43):
And from that point, like a lot of people with
a disability or impairment employment after university, it wasn't straightforward
for you, was it?
S3 (14:53):
No. Actually, university was extremely difficult. It wasn't as Inclusive
as high school was, our lecturers were not as, um, supportive.
Like if I ask for something, for example, my textbooks
would come from America on tapes six weeks into the
(15:15):
course and it's a say into the unit. I'd say
it's a, um, six weeks into the semester. Imagine it's
a 14 weeks semester. So I've lost six weeks of
it in the beginning. And, um, I would just get
a normal print book, um, pull it into chapters, give
it to different people to read for me on tapes.
(15:37):
And some people, you know, most of them were students
like me, and they had their own assignments, their own exams.
Some people would read and bring them to me. Some
people would take their time so I would fall behind.
And if I went to ask for a week's extension,
they would say, oh, we would be disadvantaging our other
students if you give you an extension.
S2 (15:59):
That's a very good example of how some things have progressed. Yes,
I've had some young people in the studio talk to
them recently, um, who are studying at university, and they
say they get really good, uh, support whilst they're at university. Now,
it's interesting, your example there, and I remember a lot
of people at university when I was younger who were
(16:20):
blind and they say, you know, like you say, halfway
through the university term, they finally get their textbooks in
their preferred method, be it tape, be it Braille or whatever,
and liaising with the university staff, trying to find out
what books you need prior to going in. I had
an interesting example when I was at university in about 2003,
(16:41):
where I found out what textbooks I needed, and I
was able to get CD-ROMs as they were then with
the whole huge big textbook on on the CD-ROM, much
easier with no questions asked from America because in America
they had a law that if a person declares that
they are blind, they get the the raw text book.
(17:04):
You have to prove that you bought the physical book
as well. Mhm. No questions asked. And when I sent
in the email to this university can I have this
or the publisher rather to the publisher says can I
have this textbook on blind blah blah blah. They didn't
question that when they were sending me the CD-ROM. I
wasn't in America. I was in Australia. Yes. In Australia,
if I was asking for an Australian book from a
(17:26):
publisher or whatever, I had to also then get proof
from one of the blindness agencies to say that I
was blind and I need this special treatment. And like
you say, it is that feeling of being separate, not included.
S3 (17:42):
Even then, Simon, when I was at uni, the other
faculties were very supportive. Psychology wasn't because I did my
electives in different, um, what do you call it? Faculties,
different courses. Mhm. Um, I found those lecturers were very supportive,
whereas in psychology some lecturers would come to me and
(18:02):
say this unit is very visual. Uh, I'm showing it on, um,
PowerPoints on, on the board, drawing it on the board,
but I don't know how to explain it. So you
may not benefit from this unit. Would you like to, um, withdraw?
And I'd say if I withdraw from this unit, will
I be able to graduate with a psych degree? And
(18:25):
they would say no. And, well, why would you ask
me to withdraw then? It's up to me to decide
whether I can learn or not. Learn? And if I
can't learn, I'll leave.
S2 (18:36):
I'm not sure what the experiences are for people doing
that type, of course, who are blind. Now, hopefully it
has progressed.
S3 (18:43):
Uh, well, I really, honestly do hope so. I hope
it has progressed. Um, especially at the university where I graduated.
It wasn't good.
S1 (18:54):
You're listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio
with Simon Chong and me, Andrew Williams. Our guest this
week is passionate advocate Niall Aisgill. And now it's back
to Simon and Niall's conversation on the International Day of
People with disability.
S2 (19:10):
What lines of work did you go into after your
university time?
S3 (19:13):
I went straight into the, um, working with culturally and
linguistically diverse people, mainly with refugees and humanitarian entrants to
begin with. I was doing settlements, so we were settling
people into the community and making sure that, you know,
to support them, to adapt into their new culture. Help
(19:34):
them with their housing issues, understanding lease agreements, registering children
in schools and adults in English programs, or helping them
get jobs. It was a fantastic job. I loved every
minute of it and I was so, um, so grateful
that they actually offered me the job.
S2 (19:54):
Now, I understand, coming from a migrant background yourself, why
you might have chosen that field or they, you know,
you got to drop there with the migrant center. But
I'm curious to know now, because you chose psychology at
university and you moved into that area. And since I've
known you, you've always worked in what we can broadly
term the helping sort of industry. What do you think
(20:17):
led you into being into that service industry of this,
of this type of being a community based person?
S3 (20:25):
Well, um, if you start from very early years of
my life, my dad was a was an activist. He
used to lead the teachers union in our city. And, um,
in the 70s, Turkey was in a very, um, complex situation.
You had the right wing supporters, left wing supporters killing
(20:47):
each other. And that used to get death threats from
the opposition Parties, etc.. So, um, but they would organize rallies.
They would organize protest marches. Mum had too many kids
to go and accompany him, so he would drag me along. Along.
We would go and sing revolutionary songs. So from then on,
(21:09):
I sort of learnt how to advocate for the rights
of people. And then at the primary school again, I
was always in the forefront when, um, any of us
got disadvantaged or beaten up or whatever. And I would say,
I'll tell my dad.
S2 (21:26):
So you were you were somewhat born into the role.
S3 (21:29):
I was. So, um, and coming here, being from a
migrant background, being a woman, being blind, there were lots
of disadvantages. We had lots of, um, situations where we
were not included. So that actually, um, helped me. And
(21:50):
then dad would always push me forward. If anyone needed
interpreting to go to the hospital or to Centrelink, or
to to go and see their lawyer. Take me with you,
he would say, and I would go on voluntary basis
and help them by doing this. I learnt a lot
of things like, um, what do you do when you've
got when you can't pay your electricity bill? What do
(22:12):
you do when you need some help with your phone bill, etc.?
I learnt all that through interpreting, so people would actually
come to me and ask, and I would just pick
up the phone and ring around and make sure that
the people got the service.
S2 (22:25):
They became an advocate at quite a young age.
S3 (22:27):
Yeah, I was 15, 16, 17, like still in high school.
And then after finishing university, um, I just thought this
is the field of work that I want to be in.
And that's why I did psychology as well.
S2 (22:42):
I'm curious to know now how part of the theme
for this year is advancing the rights and the needs
of people with a disability, and also sort of fostering
more inclusive practices and so forth. And also trying to
encourage leadership amongst people with a disability. How do you
(23:03):
think we can go about that from your point of view, Niall?
For those people who don't think they can or aren't
used to speaking up for themselves, how would you encourage
people to to take on leadership roles?
S3 (23:19):
To be a good leader, you need to know what
what your community needs are. And, um, and you need
to actually work hard and delegate to people, trust people and,
and tell people that, you know, support people in, in
doing what they can to contribute to, um, to meet
(23:40):
those needs that the community has and just have some
trust in yourself and practice, um, speaking, go to Two
public speaking courses. I've never done one, but I always
speak anyway. So yeah, you know, if you're too shy,
if you can't speak up, do some public speaking courses.
(24:01):
There are lots of very good leadership programs that you
could participate in and learn leadership skills. And I think
for an inclusive society, for people with disability to progress
in an inclusive society, the community has to stop talking
about they, they, they, them and us. We, you know,
(24:24):
we're all one. We're all one community. We need to
be um.
S2 (24:29):
It's.
S3 (24:29):
It's.
S2 (24:30):
It's an interesting way of putting it in perspective. I
like that, Niall. It's like the inclusiveness has to come from,
to use that term, both sides.
S3 (24:39):
Yes.
S2 (24:39):
It's important to have a community of say in our case, blindness.
And that's important because we can learn from one another
peer support and whatnot.
S3 (24:49):
Absolutely.
S2 (24:50):
Just like you still belong strongly to the community from
the turkiya. And, um, that's what we're really all about
here on In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio. Now,
I'm really aware that the time has really run away
from us now. It's been a really interesting conversation and
the time's gone a lot quicker than I expected. Um.
(25:11):
Is there anything particular you'd like to leave us with
before we have to wind up? And can you want
to expand on the idea of community in regards to disability?
S3 (25:20):
Yes. In a community, everybody has a role, and everybody's
role makes that community more stronger, more progressive. So whether
you're a person with disability, whether you're a lawyer, whether
you're a doctor, whether you're a shoemaker, whether you're a locksmith,
whoever you are, community needs all of us to be
(25:42):
a community. We need to be all together. So you
can't just put people with disability aside side, saying it's
too expensive to meet your needs. You need to meet
their needs to be able to, you know, allow those
people to come up and show their skills and and
support others as well as themselves.
S2 (26:01):
I do like the way you open this discussion, Niall,
that we could celebrate a little bit more heartily if
we were fully convinced that all the inclusive practices that
are written down in law and whatnot are fully done
in practice, because we still hear all those stories where
people aren't allowed in taxis because they've had a guide
(26:21):
dog or whatever it might be. Employment levels for a
person with disabilities is still very poor, and all these
types of issues are still not being addressed. After all
this time.
S3 (26:32):
And we need an affirmative action. Yep, legislated in our
acts in our Parliament. Otherwise people with disabilities are being
left behind. We don't get jobs that we need.
S2 (26:44):
On that note, we might have to finish our conversation now.
Ni hao. The time has gone really quickly, as it
often does when I'm having a great conversation with someone
as interesting as yourself. So I'd like to thank you
once again for joining us here in the studio and
Vision Australia Radio. And it's been a pleasure to talk
to you, Neal. And thank you very much for your
very precious time.
S3 (27:02):
It's been a pleasure for me, too. Thank you so much.
S1 (27:15):
That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us
at the same time next week on Vision Australia Radio,
VA radio digital and online at npr.org. You can also
listen on demand by searching for In Plain Sight by
Vision Australia Radio. Wherever you get your podcasts, or ask
your smart device to play in Plain sight by Vision
(27:37):
Australia Radio. Thanks for listening.
S4 (27:39):
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to In Plain Sight, a program where
we highlight people who are making a positive impact in
the community and disability sector.
S2 (00:25):
Shining a light on those who would be otherwise hidden
in plain sight.
S1 (00:29):
And it's a pleasure to bring you these stories on
a weekly basis with you here on Vision Australia Radio.
Hello there Simon, how are you this week?
S2 (00:37):
Hi, Andrew. I'm great. Great to be here in the studio.
It's great that we are approaching the summer. I look
forward to summer. Uh, but I won't be saying that
in January when it's 40 degrees every day. And I'm
looking forward to this program today because it's an important
program this this week, because we're all talking about the
International Day of People with disabilities, or it's otherwise known
(00:58):
in UN circles as, um, what's it called? Andrew.
S1 (01:01):
It's the International Day of Persons with disabilities, plural.
S2 (01:06):
And Andrew, what is the theme for this year for
International Day of People with disabilities?
S1 (01:09):
Uh, the theme is fostering disability inclusive societies for advancing
social progress.
S2 (01:16):
And it's an interesting interesting terms fostering progress. And it's interesting,
especially in a country like Australia where we actually still
do need to foster progress and develop what I call
full inclusion. My definition of full inclusion is that you
might be welcomed into the building, but if you can't
(01:37):
access all the facilities within that building, then you're not
fully included. And it's interesting just to, uh, go forward
a little bit into what what's happening next week, which
is International Day of Human Rights. A person with a
disability should not have any different human rights to anybody
else within this planet. Um, and it's interesting that we,
(02:02):
in some cases, celebrate the day of International Day of
People with disabilities as acknowledging all the advantages and advantages
that we have made in regards to inclusion and accessibility.
And of course, in a prosperous country like Australia, that's
quite evident. But in other countries that are less prosperous,
(02:25):
less economically stable and politically stable, these things are not
as obvious. And the UN has some things to say
about that, don't they, Andrew?
S1 (02:34):
Well, yes. I mean, there was a recent, uh, Second
World Summit of Social development that was held in Doha
just earlier this month, 4th to the 6th of November.
And from that, there were world leaders that reaffirmed their
commitment to building a just, inclusive and equitable world, which
includes people with disability and so forth. So there was
(02:54):
a whole lot of, um, of things that were drawn
out from this, including some of the the risks, if
you like, that people that still exist, you know, the
recognition is there and so forth, but nevertheless, the risks
persist for things like high risks of poverty and and
limited access to decent work and lower wages. And it's
(03:16):
all those things which sometimes, you know, we kind of
take for granted. But you still need to keep advocating. Yes.
S2 (03:23):
And even in Australia, if you live in a capital
city or a major rural regional city or major town,
you might have reasonable services. If you live outside of
those types of areas in more remote and regional areas,
and in particular, if you consider Aboriginal communities in remote
areas in the northern parts of Australia, disability services is
(03:47):
often non-existent, so they often rely on the old fashioned
community support, where people from the community look after each
other and it's not reliant on government or non-government charity services.
And it's interesting that in Australia I saw statistics saying
(04:08):
that the amount of people unemployed if you have a
disability is double that of a person who does not
have a disability. So you have to try doubly hard
to find that job. If you have a disability. And
it's still quite obvious that the more to use a
term more severe, the more impacting your disability is for you,
(04:30):
the more difficult some people find it to place you
in gainful, rightful employment. And that leads us on to
the interview that's coming up very soon with Niall before
you were I know you've worked on Vision Australia Radio
and print Handicapped Radio in the past from your observances.
(04:50):
As someone who doesn't identify as having a disability, what
do you make of days like this?
S1 (04:55):
They're always important and you need to keep with the
advocacy and to improve basic human human rights and and
and dignity. You know, things have changed in the years.
You know, a number of years ago, I used to
work with an arts organization in Melbourne, which was all
about advocating for access for people to get to theatre
(05:18):
and performances and so forth. That's changed a lot. Now,
you know, that took a lot of hard work. Things
have changed, things have improved. But there's always a need
to to improve. And until and it's an interesting thing
that comes up with our guest in the interview that's
coming up shortly, as you've mentioned, until essentially everyone's on
(05:38):
the same page for want of a better term, advocacy
needs to continue and continue apace.
S2 (05:45):
Now, we will move into the interview now. And it's
really interesting what we discovered by talking to Niall, her
personal experiences of someone who is blind, but also who
has been in an active member of our community, and
to see some of her personal experiences of inclusion and
not non-inclusion within her work and study roles. So I
(06:07):
hope you enjoy the interview. It's coming up for you now.
This week our program is aimed at the International Day
of People with disabilities, and the theme for this year's
International Day of People with disabilities is all about fostering
and advancing progress for people with disabilities. And I'm really
(06:29):
pleased and proud to have in the studio with me
today a very active disability advocate. Nicole. Hi, Nicole. How
are you going? Welcome.
S3 (06:37):
Thank you. Simon. It's nice to be here with you again.
S2 (06:40):
Yeah. It's good to be with you today. And I
thought you were the perfect candidate to come in and
speak with us today about this really great observance. It's
sort of spoken about in reverent terms in different circles.
And if you look up the United Nations website about
this day, they call it something slightly different because it's
(07:01):
international and they call it International Day of Persons with
a disability. They call it Commemorating. Um, I like to
think of it as a celebration. How do you see
this day? Anyhow.
S3 (07:12):
It will be a celebration when we are fully included
in the community in all aspects of it in, in economic,
um participation, social, political and all aspects of community participation.
But at the moment, I don't feel that we are
I mean, I'm sure we've taken a we've gone a long,
(07:33):
long way. Most of us are, um, working. We've got
the beautiful NDIS to support us when it works. We're
somewhat halfway through there, but not fully there yet to
celebrate it.
S2 (07:47):
Um, just to catch people up. Niall is totally blind.
And you've been blind since birth, is that right? Yes. Yep.
And the other interesting thing about Niall. You were born
in Turkey.
S3 (07:58):
That's right.
S2 (07:58):
Yes. And you came over here as a young child
with your family.
S3 (08:02):
15.
S2 (08:02):
Oh, okay.
S3 (08:03):
Three weeks after my 15th birthday, I was here.
S2 (08:05):
So I also thought it'd be interesting to have you in,
because I know that you are still quite active in
the community in Turkey, and at one point you were
also collecting white canes to send over there. Is that right?
S3 (08:19):
That's right. Yes.
S2 (08:20):
Are you still doing that?
S3 (08:21):
Well, um, I'm not sure when I'm going next, so
I'm not doing it at the moment, but when it
comes closer to me going, I will probably ask for
more canes to take over. Yes.
S2 (08:33):
Yeah, sure. So once you got yourself and your family
got established here in Perth, I know from previously speaking
to you and your sister that you first had to
learn how to speak English and everything like that. So
just remind people what the services were like for a
person who was totally blind, let's say, when when you
(08:55):
were reaching about 18 or 20 years old even.
S3 (08:58):
Well, when I, when I came here, I was 15.
Then we lost a year in Kalgoorlie because they didn't
have the expertise or the experience to teach a blind
person who couldn't speak a word of English. So I
lost a year there. And then we came here. We
had a school for the blind, then called Sutherland Special
Support School. I went there for three months. I learned Braille,
(09:21):
English Braille, that is, I knew Braille, but I learned
English Braille. I learned how to use a typewriter. And
I was sent to a school very close to our house.
Someone came from the then Association for the blind and
showed me how to catch a bus, how to find
my way around how to use a cane. I thought
(09:41):
using a cane was so embarrassing and it's become a
part of my life. I wouldn't even leave the house
without it. Now it's just a sense of security, a
sense of safety. It's a wonderful thing that we have.
It gives us independence. But then I didn't think it was.
But I learned the services we used to get from
the Association for the blind We're really, really good. And
(10:05):
also they provided us textbooks in Braille and on tapes.
I was very happy. And the school school was very supportive,
you know. All the teachers were well experienced, not in
teaching a blind student, but teaching someone who couldn't speak English. And, um,
the teacher would sort of write or draw a picture
(10:28):
of an apple on a, um, on the board and
tell people that it's Apple, I wouldn't know. So what
she did was she somehow found some artificial fruits, vegetables,
brought them into the classroom, and she showed them to me.
So they were all so good. Very, very good. I
can't say anything bad about them.
S2 (10:47):
Do you have any idea when the separate school for
the blind closed?
S3 (10:52):
I can't remember the exact date, but by the end
of the 80s, it was closed.
S2 (10:56):
Yeah. So there are no. Mostly in Australia. I don't
think we have any schools for the blind anymore.
S3 (11:02):
No, and I'll just make a correction. It was not
the association for the blind that provided our textbooks. It
was the Sutherland. And then it became the Vision Impaired
Support Center. I think it's now based in Padbury, and
I think they're doing a great job.
S2 (11:16):
And for those who don't know, even in those times,
if you went to a regular mainstream school, you have
visiting teachers come to help people with vision impairment. Yes,
get their special learning. Yes. However, many times a week
or whatever, it was like that.
S3 (11:31):
Yes. And they all, um, read and wrote Braille. Um,
they were just lovely people. They were very supportive, um,
especially in my case when I, you know, was struggling
because it was a school where I was the only
blind student. I couldn't speak much English. I was really struggling.
(11:53):
And they were very supportive. They supported me. They supported
my teachers to support me.
S2 (11:58):
I'm curious to go back on something you mentioned before.
Can you tell us what the main differences are between
Turkish Braille and English Braille? Because a lot of people
don't know that. And it's similar to the sign language
for the deaf. There's Auslan, which is the sign language
for Australia. Aussie language for the blind. The deaf and
Braille is similar like that to every country has a
(12:21):
different version of Braille. What were the main differences in
Turkish Braille to English Braille or Australian Turkish alphabet?
S3 (12:32):
Is is the same as the. It's based on Latin alphabet,
but we have a few extra letters like chair, like
the English sh sound or the sh s-h sound. We've
got extra letters for that. And then we've got other, uh,
sounds that doesn't exist in English, like, uh uh uh um,
so for those, we have extra letters. Uh, that's okay,
(12:55):
but the abbreviations are different. Like, you have the th sound.
You've got like dots two, three, four, six represent th
e sound or dots one, four, five, six represent the word.
This or t represent on its own represents that. These
(13:20):
are very different in English and in Turkish, because in
Turkish you have different signs representing different Turkish words. Wow. Yeah.
S2 (13:28):
So you had to be bilingual in seven different ways? Yes.
When you were young, like before you came to Australia,
were you was Braille your main form of written language only? Only.
S3 (13:40):
And and tapes, of course. Yes.
S2 (13:43):
Okay. Yeah. And so you. Because you said you learnt
how to type here when you came here as a child. Uh,
15 or 16.
S3 (13:50):
Well, Turkish keyboard is different as well.
S2 (13:52):
Oh, is it.
S3 (13:53):
Because of the extra letters?
S2 (13:55):
Because of the extra letters? Mm. That's fascinating. That's why, um,
I was really keen to have a chat to you Niall,
not only because of your background, but because the variety
of knowledge that you bring to the table.
S3 (14:07):
Thank you. Can I say in 2009 I went back
to Turkey and I found the Braille book. I couldn't
even read a word of it.
S2 (14:17):
Okay.
S3 (14:17):
I just could not because I knew the letters, but
I had no idea about the abbreviations. It had all changed.
S2 (14:25):
Okay.
S3 (14:25):
It changed. It was reformed. It was changed. I just
couldn't understand it.
S2 (14:29):
I thought people were going to tell you. You spoke
with an Australian accent.
S3 (14:33):
No, I speak perfect Turkish. Yeah. They don't even get it. Yeah,
that I speak English.
S2 (14:38):
Um, so you studied psychology at university? Is that right?
S3 (14:42):
That's right. Yes.
S2 (14:43):
And from that point, like a lot of people with
a disability or impairment employment after university, it wasn't straightforward
for you, was it?
S3 (14:53):
No. Actually, university was extremely difficult. It wasn't as Inclusive
as high school was, our lecturers were not as, um, supportive.
Like if I ask for something, for example, my textbooks
would come from America on tapes six weeks into the
(15:15):
course and it's a say into the unit. I'd say
it's a, um, six weeks into the semester. Imagine it's
a 14 weeks semester. So I've lost six weeks of
it in the beginning. And, um, I would just get
a normal print book, um, pull it into chapters, give
it to different people to read for me on tapes.
(15:37):
And some people, you know, most of them were students
like me, and they had their own assignments, their own exams.
Some people would read and bring them to me. Some
people would take their time so I would fall behind.
And if I went to ask for a week's extension,
they would say, oh, we would be disadvantaging our other
students if you give you an extension.
S2 (15:59):
That's a very good example of how some things have progressed. Yes,
I've had some young people in the studio talk to
them recently, um, who are studying at university, and they
say they get really good, uh, support whilst they're at university. Now,
it's interesting, your example there, and I remember a lot
of people at university when I was younger who were
(16:20):
blind and they say, you know, like you say, halfway
through the university term, they finally get their textbooks in
their preferred method, be it tape, be it Braille or whatever,
and liaising with the university staff, trying to find out
what books you need prior to going in. I had
an interesting example when I was at university in about 2003,
(16:41):
where I found out what textbooks I needed, and I
was able to get CD-ROMs as they were then with
the whole huge big textbook on on the CD-ROM, much
easier with no questions asked from America because in America
they had a law that if a person declares that
they are blind, they get the the raw text book.
(17:04):
You have to prove that you bought the physical book
as well. Mhm. No questions asked. And when I sent
in the email to this university can I have this
or the publisher rather to the publisher says can I
have this textbook on blind blah blah blah. They didn't
question that when they were sending me the CD-ROM. I
wasn't in America. I was in Australia. Yes. In Australia,
if I was asking for an Australian book from a
(17:26):
publisher or whatever, I had to also then get proof
from one of the blindness agencies to say that I
was blind and I need this special treatment. And like
you say, it is that feeling of being separate, not included.
S3 (17:42):
Even then, Simon, when I was at uni, the other
faculties were very supportive. Psychology wasn't because I did my
electives in different, um, what do you call it? Faculties,
different courses. Mhm. Um, I found those lecturers were very supportive,
whereas in psychology some lecturers would come to me and
(18:02):
say this unit is very visual. Uh, I'm showing it on, um,
PowerPoints on, on the board, drawing it on the board,
but I don't know how to explain it. So you
may not benefit from this unit. Would you like to, um, withdraw?
And I'd say if I withdraw from this unit, will
I be able to graduate with a psych degree? And
(18:25):
they would say no. And, well, why would you ask
me to withdraw then? It's up to me to decide
whether I can learn or not. Learn? And if I
can't learn, I'll leave.
S2 (18:36):
I'm not sure what the experiences are for people doing
that type, of course, who are blind. Now, hopefully it
has progressed.
S3 (18:43):
Uh, well, I really, honestly do hope so. I hope
it has progressed. Um, especially at the university where I graduated.
It wasn't good.
S1 (18:54):
You're listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio
with Simon Chong and me, Andrew Williams. Our guest this
week is passionate advocate Niall Aisgill. And now it's back
to Simon and Niall's conversation on the International Day of
People with disability.
S2 (19:10):
What lines of work did you go into after your
university time?
S3 (19:13):
I went straight into the, um, working with culturally and
linguistically diverse people, mainly with refugees and humanitarian entrants to
begin with. I was doing settlements, so we were settling
people into the community and making sure that, you know,
to support them, to adapt into their new culture. Help
(19:34):
them with their housing issues, understanding lease agreements, registering children
in schools and adults in English programs, or helping them
get jobs. It was a fantastic job. I loved every
minute of it and I was so, um, so grateful
that they actually offered me the job.
S2 (19:54):
Now, I understand, coming from a migrant background yourself, why
you might have chosen that field or they, you know,
you got to drop there with the migrant center. But
I'm curious to know now, because you chose psychology at
university and you moved into that area. And since I've
known you, you've always worked in what we can broadly
term the helping sort of industry. What do you think
(20:17):
led you into being into that service industry of this,
of this type of being a community based person?
S3 (20:25):
Well, um, if you start from very early years of
my life, my dad was a was an activist. He
used to lead the teachers union in our city. And, um,
in the 70s, Turkey was in a very, um, complex situation.
You had the right wing supporters, left wing supporters killing
(20:47):
each other. And that used to get death threats from
the opposition Parties, etc.. So, um, but they would organize rallies.
They would organize protest marches. Mum had too many kids
to go and accompany him, so he would drag me along. Along.
We would go and sing revolutionary songs. So from then on,
(21:09):
I sort of learnt how to advocate for the rights
of people. And then at the primary school again, I
was always in the forefront when, um, any of us
got disadvantaged or beaten up or whatever. And I would say,
I'll tell my dad.
S2 (21:26):
So you were you were somewhat born into the role.
S3 (21:29):
I was. So, um, and coming here, being from a
migrant background, being a woman, being blind, there were lots
of disadvantages. We had lots of, um, situations where we
were not included. So that actually, um, helped me. And
(21:50):
then dad would always push me forward. If anyone needed
interpreting to go to the hospital or to Centrelink, or
to to go and see their lawyer. Take me with you,
he would say, and I would go on voluntary basis
and help them by doing this. I learnt a lot
of things like, um, what do you do when you've
got when you can't pay your electricity bill? What do
(22:12):
you do when you need some help with your phone bill, etc.?
I learnt all that through interpreting, so people would actually
come to me and ask, and I would just pick
up the phone and ring around and make sure that
the people got the service.
S2 (22:25):
They became an advocate at quite a young age.
S3 (22:27):
Yeah, I was 15, 16, 17, like still in high school.
And then after finishing university, um, I just thought this
is the field of work that I want to be in.
And that's why I did psychology as well.
S2 (22:42):
I'm curious to know now how part of the theme
for this year is advancing the rights and the needs
of people with a disability, and also sort of fostering
more inclusive practices and so forth. And also trying to
encourage leadership amongst people with a disability. How do you
(23:03):
think we can go about that from your point of view, Niall?
For those people who don't think they can or aren't
used to speaking up for themselves, how would you encourage
people to to take on leadership roles?
S3 (23:19):
To be a good leader, you need to know what
what your community needs are. And, um, and you need
to actually work hard and delegate to people, trust people and,
and tell people that, you know, support people in, in
doing what they can to contribute to, um, to meet
(23:40):
those needs that the community has and just have some
trust in yourself and practice, um, speaking, go to Two
public speaking courses. I've never done one, but I always
speak anyway. So yeah, you know, if you're too shy,
if you can't speak up, do some public speaking courses.
(24:01):
There are lots of very good leadership programs that you
could participate in and learn leadership skills. And I think
for an inclusive society, for people with disability to progress
in an inclusive society, the community has to stop talking
about they, they, they, them and us. We, you know,
(24:24):
we're all one. We're all one community. We need to
be um.
S2 (24:29):
It's.
S3 (24:29):
It's.
S2 (24:30):
It's an interesting way of putting it in perspective. I
like that, Niall. It's like the inclusiveness has to come from,
to use that term, both sides.
S3 (24:39):
Yes.
S2 (24:39):
It's important to have a community of say in our case, blindness.
And that's important because we can learn from one another
peer support and whatnot.
S3 (24:49):
Absolutely.
S2 (24:50):
Just like you still belong strongly to the community from
the turkiya. And, um, that's what we're really all about
here on In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio. Now,
I'm really aware that the time has really run away
from us now. It's been a really interesting conversation and
the time's gone a lot quicker than I expected. Um.
(25:11):
Is there anything particular you'd like to leave us with
before we have to wind up? And can you want
to expand on the idea of community in regards to disability?
S3 (25:20):
Yes. In a community, everybody has a role, and everybody's
role makes that community more stronger, more progressive. So whether
you're a person with disability, whether you're a lawyer, whether
you're a doctor, whether you're a shoemaker, whether you're a locksmith,
whoever you are, community needs all of us to be
(25:42):
a community. We need to be all together. So you
can't just put people with disability aside side, saying it's
too expensive to meet your needs. You need to meet
their needs to be able to, you know, allow those
people to come up and show their skills and and
support others as well as themselves.
S2 (26:01):
I do like the way you open this discussion, Niall,
that we could celebrate a little bit more heartily if
we were fully convinced that all the inclusive practices that
are written down in law and whatnot are fully done
in practice, because we still hear all those stories where
people aren't allowed in taxis because they've had a guide
(26:21):
dog or whatever it might be. Employment levels for a
person with disabilities is still very poor, and all these
types of issues are still not being addressed. After all
this time.
S3 (26:32):
And we need an affirmative action. Yep, legislated in our
acts in our Parliament. Otherwise people with disabilities are being
left behind. We don't get jobs that we need.
S2 (26:44):
On that note, we might have to finish our conversation now.
Ni hao. The time has gone really quickly, as it
often does when I'm having a great conversation with someone
as interesting as yourself. So I'd like to thank you
once again for joining us here in the studio and
Vision Australia Radio. And it's been a pleasure to talk
to you, Neal. And thank you very much for your
very precious time.
S3 (27:02):
It's been a pleasure for me, too. Thank you so much.
S1 (27:15):
That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us
at the same time next week on Vision Australia Radio,
VA radio digital and online at npr.org. You can also
listen on demand by searching for In Plain Sight by
Vision Australia Radio. Wherever you get your podcasts, or ask
your smart device to play in Plain sight by Vision
(27:37):
Australia Radio. Thanks for listening.
S4 (27:39):
Thank you.
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