June 3, 2025 • 28 mins
"Don't give people a hand-out, give them a hand up."
A motto that this week's guest, Dr Rita Kleinfeld-Fowell, lives by every day.
Legally Deaf and blind, Rita has faced - and overcome - immense challenges. Through resilience, strength and determination, she has transformed adversity into advocacy, using her lived experience to support and uplift others.
Now Head of Disability Law Practice at Sussex Street Community Legal Centre, Rita is passionate about empowering people with disability through knowledge, rights and representation.
Her journey and her conversation with Simon on the show this week is not just inspiring - it's a reminder that true leadership is built on empathy, experience and a commitment to making a difference.
For more information about Rita's work and the legal services available at Sussex Street Community Law Service, go to their website: sscls.asn.au
To find out more about the People with disabilities WA State Conference that Rita will be speaking at, please go to the PWdWA website: pwdwa.org/whats-happening/events/state-conference-2025/
Support Vision Australia Radio: https://www.visionaustralia.org/donate
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:07):
Hi I'm Abby.
S2 (00:08):
I'm Simon, and welcome to. In Plain Sight, a program
where we highlight people who are making a positive impact
within their community and the disability sector.
S1 (00:17):
Shining a light on those who might otherwise be hidden
in plain sight.
S2 (00:22):
And we share these stories on a weekly basis with
you here on Vision Australia Radio.
S1 (00:27):
A warm welcome to all our beautiful listeners out there.
Hope you guys are having a fabulous week. And hello Simon,
how are you?
S2 (00:35):
Hi Abby, I'm great. I must say that I am
enjoying the weather at the moment because I think a
few weeks ago I was whinging that our endless summer
is getting a bit tedious. So I'm glad for the
change of weather. And I'm glad to be in the
studio with you. And I'm glad to be doing this programme.
It gives me a lot of joy. We've got a
great show lined up for you this week.
S1 (00:56):
Yes, this interview is one of my favourites. I will
have to say very interesting.
S2 (01:00):
And one of the things that we will be discussing
today is deaf blindness. Now, one of the things I
like to do is to watch TV. I know a
lot of people do, and there's a great television show
on the ABC at the moment called The Piano. And
on one of their recent episodes, it featured a woman
by the name of Michelle Stevens who is deaf blind.
(01:23):
She is a well-known deaf blind disability advocate. And she
happens to be a tremendously good piano player. And it
was spellbinding to watch these people watching Michelle play the piano.
And as one of the comments said on the program,
it took three people to communicate to her because she
(01:45):
is just about completely blind and just about completely deaf.
But once she played the piano, she needed no assistance
and she could communicate beautifully and so fluently through that
instrument and the power of music. It's a beautiful thing,
and I love it so much. And it's tremendous. We
(02:08):
do love discovering these people. And I find the world
of deaf blindness fascinating. Abby, you just talked to me
off air about a fabulous deaf blind woman from Western
Australia who also works as a journalist at the ABC.
And she is a para dancer, and she has some
(02:30):
links to some of the topics that we'll be discussing.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
S1 (02:34):
Yeah. So her name is Vanessa Velicovich. She's a journalist
for the ABC and she is deaf, blind. And one
of the topics in the interview we talk about today
is the concept of disability rights and disability discrimination. And
there's a very interesting article online. It's quite a few
(02:58):
years old now, but in it, Vanessa was talking about
how she was refused access to a Jetstar flight because
of her disability and because she didn't have anyone to
board the flight with her. So if you have a chance,
give her a Google. You'll find the article, but it's
just really important aspect of what we are talking about
(03:20):
in today's episode about advocacy and acceptance and equal rights.
And our guest today is Doctor Rita Kleinfeld for who
is a solicitor for disability rights. And this is a
key theme that she talks about.
S2 (03:35):
Yes. And also another thing that Vanessa does is that
she is a ballroom dancer and she's currently in England
competing in a ballroom dancing competition. And we wish her
all the best of luck over there. And a shout
out to all our para dancers and a great thing
to be doing. I wish you all the best. So
we will lead into the interview now.
S1 (03:57):
Hello and welcome! And today we'll be speaking to Doctor
Rita Kleinfeld for solicitor for Disability Rights. Welcome, Rita. Hello.
S2 (04:07):
Thanks for joining us this week. And it's really fabulous
that you could fit us into your busy schedule to
join us here at the studio for Vision Australia Radio. Now,
one of the many reasons I wanted to talk to
you is that we'll start with this. First is that
you will be presenting at the people with Disabilities conference
coming up at the end of June. Can you remember
(04:28):
the title of the presentation?
S3 (04:30):
Yeah. So basically the title is around inclusion with education
and employment. Because look, you know, in our disability community,
people face barriers or traumatized and retraumatized. And the work
I do in Community Law Centre are biggest areas of
(04:51):
concern is education and employment. And let's face it, I mean,
if you don't have a good education, you don't go
on and get employment, you don't have a job, you
don't have a relationship, you don't have a home. You
don't have a stable financial, um, you know, you are
facing financial hardship and so. Yeah. So that's what I
(05:15):
based my, um, presentation on at the conference.
S2 (05:19):
Now, you're currently working as a disability discrimination lawyer at
the Sussex Street Community Legal Service. Is that right?
S3 (05:27):
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I'm head of disability practice. We
have a team of, um, advocate, and we have, um,
lawyers who do the legal side of it.
S2 (05:38):
Now we'll go back in time. You are legally blind
and legally deaf, is that right?
S3 (05:43):
Yeah.
S2 (05:44):
So what we terminology is deaf. Blind?
S3 (05:47):
Yeah. The terminology is indeed deaf blind. Um, but I
would diagnose, uh, when I was about three and four, um,
I was born in King Croft in Australia and then
went back to the UK, and it was only when
I was in a day nursery that a social worker
picked up on my behavior. I was the nightmare child. Um,
(06:11):
the female version of Damien after The Omen. Gosh. Um,
I was banned from nursery, and then I went through
a diagnosis. Uh, and that's when they picked up on
the deafness and blindness.
S2 (06:24):
So, Rita, what's the nature of your deaf blindness? What's
it caused by? And what's the name of it? Well.
S3 (06:30):
Um, ironically, I've only just been diagnosed, um, by the
Lyon Institute. Um, I clinic, um.
S2 (06:38):
And hats off.
S3 (06:38):
To the syndrome. Yeah.
S2 (06:40):
Usher syndrome? Yeah. So that was at the Lyons Institute? Yes. Yeah.
Here in Perth? Yeah. What a fabulous organisation.
S3 (06:48):
They do a lot of good work. Yeah.
S2 (06:50):
One of the most renowned, leading research institutions, not only
in this country, but around the world.
S3 (06:57):
Mhm. Yeah. I mean, I lived in the UK for
a long, long time and they didn't really pick pick
up on it. It was the Lyon Institute in Western
Australia that diagnosed me.
S2 (07:08):
The little I know about. Ushers. It's for people who
are deaf blind. It's one of the more common diagnoses,
isn't it?
S3 (07:16):
Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.
S2 (07:18):
You mentioned you're from the UK. Whereabouts from the UK from?
S3 (07:22):
Yeah, I'm from the north west in a little seaside
resort called Southport. I do have a Liverpudlian accent, so
the twang did come out when I go back over there. Yeah. But, um. Yeah.
I mean, often people say, oh, you know, you're English.
And I think, well, I'm Australian born, but, um, yeah,
(07:45):
I yeah, I still, I still have that English accent.
S2 (07:49):
And you went to university where.
S3 (07:51):
Um, so I went to university. So what happened was
my eyesight deteriorated. I worked in the public service for
about 18 years. I was training, um, superintendent, registrar and
registrar of births, Deaths and Marriages. Richard, on the legal side, um,
on how to, you know, pretend to at the registrar
(08:13):
to marry people, etcetera. Um, so I, I thought of fate,
determination on a daily basis in the workplace and decided
to take a career change, went into law.
S2 (08:26):
Now, I always find it fascinating. Um, that's part of
the nature of this program. What motivates people to move
into the space of. Okay, I've faced something myself, and
I want to get over that hurdle. But not only
do I want to get over that hurdle and be
(08:46):
a stronger person in myself, but I want to be
a role model and help other people. What? What do
you think? What do you think initiated that within you, Rita?
S3 (08:55):
I think because I went through that personal experience of
facing barriers and could see around me that people with
disabilities were facing similar issues, and I decided to go
into law and try and make a change. So I
(09:15):
qualified as a solicitor in the UK and then became
a High Court solicitor doing judicial review, though that basically,
were you challenging the government for failure to carry out
their community care assessment, which is the equivalent of the
NDIS here? So some really high profile cases. Um, I,
(09:38):
you know, often I'd be travelling down to London on,
on a weekly basis, you know, and that's like a
four hour journey on the train. It was yeah, a nightmare.
But I made a different I made a different. Yeah.
And then I took a life change balance. I wanted
to go back to Australia. I really, really wanted to
go back to my home country and betrayed my husband, Mark,
(10:01):
and the family to come over and. But initially, I
came over on my own with well, not on my
own with my older son, John. He pretty much got
a job working away. And I remember, you know, staying
at a friend and two days and I'm thinking, oh
my God, what have I done? I've come to Western
(10:23):
Australia and everything's so different and there's no support. There's nothing.
I had no dog at locally, no guide dog, nothing.
And so I thought, well, you know what? I've got
to make the best of it and I did. Yeah,
I'm glad I did it.
S2 (10:42):
We'll move on to different areas shortly. But you just
mentioned Guide Dogs. You currently use a guide dog.
S3 (10:48):
I do yep. Yeah. Joel he's my second guide dog.
I've got still got my first guide dog, Ivy. She's retired.
She's nearly 14. Yeah, she's still with us. Um. Bless her.
S2 (11:03):
When you are working as a lawyer, we'll get into
the specifics of the kind of work that you're doing
at Sussex Street shortly. But, um, I know I've known
a number of blind people who are lawyers and solicitors
and barristers even. What sort of assistance and and help
do you need being blind within that kind of role?
S3 (11:27):
I have like, um, a video reader. Um, um.
S2 (11:31):
For those who don't know, can you tell us the
basics of what a video reader.
S3 (11:35):
A video reader is a bit like the old TV
camera where you sort of enlarged the written document. Yes. Um,
but but the. So now they're quite portable and they can,
you know, they can be carried into court. Um, I
also put the court on notice, you know, the magistrate,
the judge or the tribunal, you know, like the court
(11:59):
staff know. And they are very, very accommodating. Um, they
also have those special, Um, headsets that are looped into
the microphone. So, you know, just just be mindful. If
you're ever in court yourself, ask for the special microphone
headset if you've got a hearing impairment, but a really,
(12:21):
really good.
S1 (12:23):
You're currently listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia
Radio with Simon Chong and Abby Green. This week we
are speaking to Doctor Rita Kleinfeld for solicitor for Disability Rights.
S2 (12:38):
We'll move into what you actually are doing within Sussex
Street Community Legal Service now. Um, in the area of
disability discrimination, because that is one of the main important areas,
not only for what you're doing currently, but our audience
are very interested in that. And that's one of the
(12:59):
themes of our show. Can you tell us some of
the main things that you're doing?
S3 (13:04):
Yeah. Of course. So I thought of, um, uh, started
with 18 months ago. Um, they sort of created a
new role, a head of disability practice. And I think
because on the back of the disability Royal Commission, there
was an increase in demand for people with disabilities seeking
(13:27):
advocacy and legal services. Um, but like 18 months now
on um, what I've, I've done I, we do do
disability discrimination. Um, we only have funding for one lawyer. Um,
but the demand is absolutely huge. We're trying to get
funding in from the government, the labor government. Hopefully that
(13:51):
will happen. Um, but what I've, what I'm doing at
the moment is trying to provide a wraparound service, because
there's nothing worse when a person with disability who's been
traumatized in the past is having to be bounced from
pillar to post. So, you know, a person with a
disability might come to us and say, hey, I'm facing
(14:13):
discrimination in, in, in employment or my child is not
having getting the education that he or she needs because
the reasonable adjustments are not put in place. So we
provide a wraparound therapy with the legal services, and we
provide them an advocate to, you know, to support mum
or the person that's creating employment barriers. But we also
(14:37):
do civil law. We do race and sex and we
do guardianship. So as long as you've got a disability.
S2 (14:47):
You'll qualify in a legal sense. How do we define
disability discrimination.
S3 (14:54):
So disability discrimination can be direct. So direct as blatantly
saying you're not allowed into the restaurant with your guide dog. Hmm.
Or it can be indirect, where a polity may say,
for example, have a polity for apprenticeships, but the stipulation
(15:18):
is that the person, the young person had to have
a Tod. Now, this would put the disability community at
um at a disadvantage, because we know that people with
intellectual disability will not gain that level of, um, high
(15:39):
school education. So that indirect discrimination that a typical example.
S2 (15:45):
Another common one in regards to employment or seeking employment,
that the blind community notice quite frequently is that in
every job ad it says must have a driver's license. Um,
and even when we explain, hang on, I'm going to
go to the office and then be in that office.
I don't I'm not driving anyone anywhere. Why do I
(16:08):
need a driver's license? And there are other ways of
going around it.
S3 (16:12):
So I've had a few cases like that where, you know,
people have been legally blind and have had real social
workers or teachers. In theory, if they put in a
recruitment advertisement, you need a driving license. It's indirect discrimination,
and that's where they're putting a condition on somebody with
(16:33):
a disability.
S2 (16:34):
Yes. Doing this highly stressful work, being a disability lawyer,
you must have life balance. So what do you do
for your life balance, reader, in regards to recreation and leisure?
S3 (16:46):
Look, I, I go to the gym. I love my, um,
body pump classes.
S2 (16:54):
Body pump.
S3 (16:54):
Yeah. And body comeback, which is like a martial art. Um,
but my passion is ballroom dancing. I've only been doing
it for about two years. Um, And I thought I
came across it on Facebook. Um, Daryl Davenport. Yes. He
he sort of owned the dance school. He's done amazing
(17:16):
things for people with visual impairment. Uh, and I love dancing. Um,
I love going into competitions. It really good for mental
health because the kind of work I do, I, you know,
even running like a department, a busy department. I also
have my own caseload. Yep. And, you know, mindful that
(17:36):
you could be affected by, um, vicarious trauma, which means
that you, you have the transference of that trauma from
your client.
S2 (17:46):
Well, that was one of the reasons I brought it up,
because I can only imagine from a very far distance
what it would be like. Firstly, being a lawyer. And
then secondly, being involved in the type of work you do,
considering also that you have a personal connection, being that
(18:07):
you have a disability yourself and you're often hearing these
really stressful, harrowing stories and the like, so having a
stress outlet must be very important.
S3 (18:17):
Yeah. Um, so, Simon, I think, um, when I was younger,
I really resented being having, you know, my disability, you know, um,
I refused to wear the hearing aid and often so
angry because I was deafblind. But, you know, now reflecting back,
(18:41):
I'm proud to have these disabilities because it put me
on a path to the career I've got today. And
I know I make a big difference to people's lives
with disability. It's a passion. It's the much needed service
in WA. I mean, to treat our little unit. We're
the only community law centre that had this funding. No
(19:04):
other law centre had it. you know, on the back
of the disability royal commission. Very, very little money put
into advocacy or disability rights, legal services.
S2 (19:14):
And we are aware that there is a high representation in,
in the prison system, especially for those who have an
intellectual disability or have other mental health issues or ADHD
and those types of impairments because they haven't been recognized,
(19:36):
their disability or their impairment hasn't been recognized. Would that
be right?
S3 (19:40):
Yeah. That's correct. We're actually hoping to secure some funding
from the Children's Magistrate Court. So this is this is
the magistrate court is primarily for for children under the
age of 18 who have committed criminal offences. And so
(20:00):
what we've been asked by the Children's Court to have
a present Picard. Currently, the children at risk who have
got undiagnosed disabilities or do have disabilities that are not
getting the support that they need to, you know, to
(20:21):
stay out of the justice. And the same goes for,
you know, adults who are in the prison system. They're undiagnosed.
We do provide a service around that as well. Our
advocacy work with the prisoners in Katerini and Bancsa. But
it's the long road to get that diagnosis because you
(20:44):
need the funding to get the medical diagnosed. Yeah.
S2 (20:47):
It's an endless circle.
S3 (20:49):
Yeah, yeah, very, very much needed area.
S2 (20:53):
So you've been working in and around the disability sector
for quite a long time now. Have you seen many
changes and what would be the highlights of some of
the changes and improvements that you've seen?
S3 (21:05):
When I first came over? Well, back to Australia 13
years ago. And you've got to remember, I lived in
the UK for many years. Um, and that, though much
more advanced culturally, that they're much more advanced, you know. Um,
(21:27):
and I came to wa it was like going back
in a time warp. And I just thought, and that
was one of my insecurities when I first came, I thought,
how the hell am I going to cope here, you know? But, um,
I have, I've, you know, um, I've been on the
state ministerial board. I've really enjoyed that role for the
(21:48):
last three years. And look, the state government and the
federal government work closely with the disability community or the
reps of the state. And things have improved. Um, I
can see that from when I first came. But yes,
there's much more that needs to be improved and culturally
(22:10):
it will take time.
S2 (22:12):
What would you say are the key areas that need
immediate improvement?
S3 (22:17):
Um, okay, so the big one for me is about attitude.
It's about attitude and society. And you know, just because
you've got a disability, it doesn't mean to say that
you're not capable of, um, having, you know, employment. Um,
they have the perception that if you have a disability,
(22:38):
no matter what your disability is, whether you're legally blind
or artistic or intellectual disability, everybody had the right to
debate the human right, you know, to have employment. Um,
but I think, you know, a lot of employers are
too frightened to take a person on disability because it
(22:59):
might cost money. A typical example when I first started
a stutter street I'm a firm believer on customized employment.
S2 (23:08):
So sorry. Say that again. Customized.
S3 (23:10):
So I'm going to use myself as a typical example. Yes.
So I thought of that. And I will struggle to
new the photocopying machine because it's not acceptable. Or I
might struggle to upload my email into the case management system.
And so the team I worked with are sort of
(23:34):
educated them and brought them on board and said, hey, look,
I can't do everything. And they sort of work with
me and they're actually helping me with the reasonable adjustment.
And it worked out really, really well. Um, and it's
about making the job fit for you. Yeah. You know,
for example, you might have a person who, um, and
(23:56):
they are moving out of the, um, you know, the
porter's employment workshop.
S2 (24:01):
Yes.
S3 (24:02):
You know, you can't really say to a person with
an intellectual disability, Stability. Hey, I think you should go
and do a cleaning job. It's not about what what
the person thinks that person should have. It's the looking
at the person skilled and and exploring what their skill
set is. It may be that they they actually don't
(24:25):
want to do cleaning. They might want to do shop work.
They might want to do admin work. It's about making
the job work for them.
S2 (24:32):
It's turning the tables on them. Rita, there must be
a lot of perceptions in the community. People will see
you with your guide dog and people understand that and go, ah, blind. Okay.
Are you deaf as well? And they must find that
quite outstanding and shocking. Do you get much feedback about
that situation?
S3 (24:51):
Yeah. Of course. Look, I've had clients come in and
they thought of me with the guide dog. And, um,
have a paralegal helping me. And, you know, a couple
of people have said, oh, well, you know, if you
can't stay in here, how are you going to represent me? Mhm. Um.
I said, look, you don't need to worry about my disability.
Just give me your facts of your case and and
(25:14):
you know what? That that perception changes.
S2 (25:17):
One of the reasons why this program exists is to
bring people like yourself in, reader, that we don't want
to put you on a pedestal because you are like
everybody else, and you've done the hard work and you've
got the you've achieved all that you've achieved, and you've
always spent your time in the different roles that you've done,
(25:37):
giving back to the community and trying to instill the
same kind of enthusiasm and resilience in others. Would that
be right, Rita?
S3 (25:48):
My motto is this simply is that we don't like
to give a handout. We give you a hand up
and we walk alongside you. We help you to build
that resilience. We help you to build that self-advocacy so
that you can fend thunder for your own right. Um.
(26:08):
And that the the fact of the matter.
S2 (26:11):
Now, we'll have to finish now, Rita. Two things that
I want to remind people of is that the people
with disabilities Western Australia State Conference will be coming up
on the 19th and 20th of June, and Rita will
be presenting there. And she will be demonstrating how to
empower young people to create the young leaders of tomorrow.
(26:34):
And your presentation about the education and so forth. And
also at the end of June is Deafblind week. Are
you participating in anything to do with that, Rita?
S3 (26:44):
I am yeah, I'm presenting at that as well. The
presentation will be on self-advocacy. Self-Advocacy? Yeah. And we're launching
on that week the Leadership Program.
S2 (26:55):
We look forward to hearing more about that. We'll be
having a number of guests coming up in future programs
that we'll be discussing different aspects of the deafblind week,
because I find it really interesting and there's so much
going on and there's so much we need to know
about that area.
S3 (27:10):
Been a pleasure having a talk with you. Timing. And
it's good to get the voice out there. And, you know,
if you ever need any legal assistance, look me up.
S2 (27:21):
Will do. And just to remind people, yes, if you
do need that kind of assistance, I look up Sussex
Street Community Legal Service and we'll put that information on
our podcast description for those listening to the podcast. Thanks
once again for coming into the studio, Rita.
S3 (27:37):
You're welcome. Simon.
S2 (27:38):
Bye for now.
S1 (27:40):
That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us,
Abby Green and Simon Chong at the same time. Next
week on Vision Australia Radio, VA radio digital and online
at VA radio. You can also listen on demand by
searching for In Plain Sight wherever you get your podcasts,
or ask your smart device to play in Plain sight
(28:02):
by Vision Australia Radio. Thanks for listening.
Hi I'm Abby.
S2 (00:08):
I'm Simon, and welcome to. In Plain Sight, a program
where we highlight people who are making a positive impact
within their community and the disability sector.
S1 (00:17):
Shining a light on those who might otherwise be hidden
in plain sight.
S2 (00:22):
And we share these stories on a weekly basis with
you here on Vision Australia Radio.
S1 (00:27):
A warm welcome to all our beautiful listeners out there.
Hope you guys are having a fabulous week. And hello Simon,
how are you?
S2 (00:35):
Hi Abby, I'm great. I must say that I am
enjoying the weather at the moment because I think a
few weeks ago I was whinging that our endless summer
is getting a bit tedious. So I'm glad for the
change of weather. And I'm glad to be in the
studio with you. And I'm glad to be doing this programme.
It gives me a lot of joy. We've got a
great show lined up for you this week.
S1 (00:56):
Yes, this interview is one of my favourites. I will
have to say very interesting.
S2 (01:00):
And one of the things that we will be discussing
today is deaf blindness. Now, one of the things I
like to do is to watch TV. I know a
lot of people do, and there's a great television show
on the ABC at the moment called The Piano. And
on one of their recent episodes, it featured a woman
by the name of Michelle Stevens who is deaf blind.
(01:23):
She is a well-known deaf blind disability advocate. And she
happens to be a tremendously good piano player. And it
was spellbinding to watch these people watching Michelle play the piano.
And as one of the comments said on the program,
it took three people to communicate to her because she
(01:45):
is just about completely blind and just about completely deaf.
But once she played the piano, she needed no assistance
and she could communicate beautifully and so fluently through that
instrument and the power of music. It's a beautiful thing,
and I love it so much. And it's tremendous. We
(02:08):
do love discovering these people. And I find the world
of deaf blindness fascinating. Abby, you just talked to me
off air about a fabulous deaf blind woman from Western
Australia who also works as a journalist at the ABC.
And she is a para dancer, and she has some
(02:30):
links to some of the topics that we'll be discussing.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
S1 (02:34):
Yeah. So her name is Vanessa Velicovich. She's a journalist
for the ABC and she is deaf, blind. And one
of the topics in the interview we talk about today
is the concept of disability rights and disability discrimination. And
there's a very interesting article online. It's quite a few
(02:58):
years old now, but in it, Vanessa was talking about
how she was refused access to a Jetstar flight because
of her disability and because she didn't have anyone to
board the flight with her. So if you have a chance,
give her a Google. You'll find the article, but it's
just really important aspect of what we are talking about
(03:20):
in today's episode about advocacy and acceptance and equal rights.
And our guest today is Doctor Rita Kleinfeld for who
is a solicitor for disability rights. And this is a
key theme that she talks about.
S2 (03:35):
Yes. And also another thing that Vanessa does is that
she is a ballroom dancer and she's currently in England
competing in a ballroom dancing competition. And we wish her
all the best of luck over there. And a shout
out to all our para dancers and a great thing
to be doing. I wish you all the best. So
we will lead into the interview now.
S1 (03:57):
Hello and welcome! And today we'll be speaking to Doctor
Rita Kleinfeld for solicitor for Disability Rights. Welcome, Rita. Hello.
S2 (04:07):
Thanks for joining us this week. And it's really fabulous
that you could fit us into your busy schedule to
join us here at the studio for Vision Australia Radio. Now,
one of the many reasons I wanted to talk to
you is that we'll start with this. First is that
you will be presenting at the people with Disabilities conference
coming up at the end of June. Can you remember
(04:28):
the title of the presentation?
S3 (04:30):
Yeah. So basically the title is around inclusion with education
and employment. Because look, you know, in our disability community,
people face barriers or traumatized and retraumatized. And the work
I do in Community Law Centre are biggest areas of
(04:51):
concern is education and employment. And let's face it, I mean,
if you don't have a good education, you don't go
on and get employment, you don't have a job, you
don't have a relationship, you don't have a home. You
don't have a stable financial, um, you know, you are
facing financial hardship and so. Yeah. So that's what I
(05:15):
based my, um, presentation on at the conference.
S2 (05:19):
Now, you're currently working as a disability discrimination lawyer at
the Sussex Street Community Legal Service. Is that right?
S3 (05:27):
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I'm head of disability practice. We
have a team of, um, advocate, and we have, um,
lawyers who do the legal side of it.
S2 (05:38):
Now we'll go back in time. You are legally blind
and legally deaf, is that right?
S3 (05:43):
Yeah.
S2 (05:44):
So what we terminology is deaf. Blind?
S3 (05:47):
Yeah. The terminology is indeed deaf blind. Um, but I
would diagnose, uh, when I was about three and four, um,
I was born in King Croft in Australia and then
went back to the UK, and it was only when
I was in a day nursery that a social worker
picked up on my behavior. I was the nightmare child. Um,
(06:11):
the female version of Damien after The Omen. Gosh. Um,
I was banned from nursery, and then I went through
a diagnosis. Uh, and that's when they picked up on
the deafness and blindness.
S2 (06:24):
So, Rita, what's the nature of your deaf blindness? What's
it caused by? And what's the name of it? Well.
S3 (06:30):
Um, ironically, I've only just been diagnosed, um, by the
Lyon Institute. Um, I clinic, um.
S2 (06:38):
And hats off.
S3 (06:38):
To the syndrome. Yeah.
S2 (06:40):
Usher syndrome? Yeah. So that was at the Lyons Institute? Yes. Yeah.
Here in Perth? Yeah. What a fabulous organisation.
S3 (06:48):
They do a lot of good work. Yeah.
S2 (06:50):
One of the most renowned, leading research institutions, not only
in this country, but around the world.
S3 (06:57):
Mhm. Yeah. I mean, I lived in the UK for
a long, long time and they didn't really pick pick
up on it. It was the Lyon Institute in Western
Australia that diagnosed me.
S2 (07:08):
The little I know about. Ushers. It's for people who
are deaf blind. It's one of the more common diagnoses,
isn't it?
S3 (07:16):
Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.
S2 (07:18):
You mentioned you're from the UK. Whereabouts from the UK from?
S3 (07:22):
Yeah, I'm from the north west in a little seaside
resort called Southport. I do have a Liverpudlian accent, so
the twang did come out when I go back over there. Yeah. But, um. Yeah.
I mean, often people say, oh, you know, you're English.
And I think, well, I'm Australian born, but, um, yeah,
(07:45):
I yeah, I still, I still have that English accent.
S2 (07:49):
And you went to university where.
S3 (07:51):
Um, so I went to university. So what happened was
my eyesight deteriorated. I worked in the public service for
about 18 years. I was training, um, superintendent, registrar and
registrar of births, Deaths and Marriages. Richard, on the legal side, um,
on how to, you know, pretend to at the registrar
(08:13):
to marry people, etcetera. Um, so I, I thought of fate,
determination on a daily basis in the workplace and decided
to take a career change, went into law.
S2 (08:26):
Now, I always find it fascinating. Um, that's part of
the nature of this program. What motivates people to move
into the space of. Okay, I've faced something myself, and
I want to get over that hurdle. But not only
do I want to get over that hurdle and be
(08:46):
a stronger person in myself, but I want to be
a role model and help other people. What? What do
you think? What do you think initiated that within you, Rita?
S3 (08:55):
I think because I went through that personal experience of
facing barriers and could see around me that people with
disabilities were facing similar issues, and I decided to go
into law and try and make a change. So I
(09:15):
qualified as a solicitor in the UK and then became
a High Court solicitor doing judicial review, though that basically,
were you challenging the government for failure to carry out
their community care assessment, which is the equivalent of the
NDIS here? So some really high profile cases. Um, I,
(09:38):
you know, often I'd be travelling down to London on,
on a weekly basis, you know, and that's like a
four hour journey on the train. It was yeah, a nightmare.
But I made a different I made a different. Yeah.
And then I took a life change balance. I wanted
to go back to Australia. I really, really wanted to
go back to my home country and betrayed my husband, Mark,
(10:01):
and the family to come over and. But initially, I
came over on my own with well, not on my
own with my older son, John. He pretty much got
a job working away. And I remember, you know, staying
at a friend and two days and I'm thinking, oh
my God, what have I done? I've come to Western
(10:23):
Australia and everything's so different and there's no support. There's nothing.
I had no dog at locally, no guide dog, nothing.
And so I thought, well, you know what? I've got
to make the best of it and I did. Yeah,
I'm glad I did it.
S2 (10:42):
We'll move on to different areas shortly. But you just
mentioned Guide Dogs. You currently use a guide dog.
S3 (10:48):
I do yep. Yeah. Joel he's my second guide dog.
I've got still got my first guide dog, Ivy. She's retired.
She's nearly 14. Yeah, she's still with us. Um. Bless her.
S2 (11:03):
When you are working as a lawyer, we'll get into
the specifics of the kind of work that you're doing
at Sussex Street shortly. But, um, I know I've known
a number of blind people who are lawyers and solicitors
and barristers even. What sort of assistance and and help
do you need being blind within that kind of role?
S3 (11:27):
I have like, um, a video reader. Um, um.
S2 (11:31):
For those who don't know, can you tell us the
basics of what a video reader.
S3 (11:35):
A video reader is a bit like the old TV
camera where you sort of enlarged the written document. Yes. Um,
but but the. So now they're quite portable and they can,
you know, they can be carried into court. Um, I
also put the court on notice, you know, the magistrate,
the judge or the tribunal, you know, like the court
(11:59):
staff know. And they are very, very accommodating. Um, they
also have those special, Um, headsets that are looped into
the microphone. So, you know, just just be mindful. If
you're ever in court yourself, ask for the special microphone
headset if you've got a hearing impairment, but a really,
(12:21):
really good.
S1 (12:23):
You're currently listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia
Radio with Simon Chong and Abby Green. This week we
are speaking to Doctor Rita Kleinfeld for solicitor for Disability Rights.
S2 (12:38):
We'll move into what you actually are doing within Sussex
Street Community Legal Service now. Um, in the area of
disability discrimination, because that is one of the main important areas,
not only for what you're doing currently, but our audience
are very interested in that. And that's one of the
(12:59):
themes of our show. Can you tell us some of
the main things that you're doing?
S3 (13:04):
Yeah. Of course. So I thought of, um, uh, started
with 18 months ago. Um, they sort of created a
new role, a head of disability practice. And I think
because on the back of the disability Royal Commission, there
was an increase in demand for people with disabilities seeking
(13:27):
advocacy and legal services. Um, but like 18 months now
on um, what I've, I've done I, we do do
disability discrimination. Um, we only have funding for one lawyer. Um,
but the demand is absolutely huge. We're trying to get
funding in from the government, the labor government. Hopefully that
(13:51):
will happen. Um, but what I've, what I'm doing at
the moment is trying to provide a wraparound service, because
there's nothing worse when a person with disability who's been
traumatized in the past is having to be bounced from
pillar to post. So, you know, a person with a
disability might come to us and say, hey, I'm facing
(14:13):
discrimination in, in, in employment or my child is not
having getting the education that he or she needs because
the reasonable adjustments are not put in place. So we
provide a wraparound therapy with the legal services, and we
provide them an advocate to, you know, to support mum
or the person that's creating employment barriers. But we also
(14:37):
do civil law. We do race and sex and we
do guardianship. So as long as you've got a disability.
S2 (14:47):
You'll qualify in a legal sense. How do we define
disability discrimination.
S3 (14:54):
So disability discrimination can be direct. So direct as blatantly
saying you're not allowed into the restaurant with your guide dog. Hmm.
Or it can be indirect, where a polity may say,
for example, have a polity for apprenticeships, but the stipulation
(15:18):
is that the person, the young person had to have
a Tod. Now, this would put the disability community at
um at a disadvantage, because we know that people with
intellectual disability will not gain that level of, um, high
(15:39):
school education. So that indirect discrimination that a typical example.
S2 (15:45):
Another common one in regards to employment or seeking employment,
that the blind community notice quite frequently is that in
every job ad it says must have a driver's license. Um,
and even when we explain, hang on, I'm going to
go to the office and then be in that office.
I don't I'm not driving anyone anywhere. Why do I
(16:08):
need a driver's license? And there are other ways of
going around it.
S3 (16:12):
So I've had a few cases like that where, you know,
people have been legally blind and have had real social
workers or teachers. In theory, if they put in a
recruitment advertisement, you need a driving license. It's indirect discrimination,
and that's where they're putting a condition on somebody with
(16:33):
a disability.
S2 (16:34):
Yes. Doing this highly stressful work, being a disability lawyer,
you must have life balance. So what do you do
for your life balance, reader, in regards to recreation and leisure?
S3 (16:46):
Look, I, I go to the gym. I love my, um,
body pump classes.
S2 (16:54):
Body pump.
S3 (16:54):
Yeah. And body comeback, which is like a martial art. Um,
but my passion is ballroom dancing. I've only been doing
it for about two years. Um, And I thought I
came across it on Facebook. Um, Daryl Davenport. Yes. He
he sort of owned the dance school. He's done amazing
(17:16):
things for people with visual impairment. Uh, and I love dancing. Um,
I love going into competitions. It really good for mental
health because the kind of work I do, I, you know,
even running like a department, a busy department. I also
have my own caseload. Yep. And, you know, mindful that
(17:36):
you could be affected by, um, vicarious trauma, which means
that you, you have the transference of that trauma from
your client.
S2 (17:46):
Well, that was one of the reasons I brought it up,
because I can only imagine from a very far distance
what it would be like. Firstly, being a lawyer. And
then secondly, being involved in the type of work you do,
considering also that you have a personal connection, being that
(18:07):
you have a disability yourself and you're often hearing these
really stressful, harrowing stories and the like, so having a
stress outlet must be very important.
S3 (18:17):
Yeah. Um, so, Simon, I think, um, when I was younger,
I really resented being having, you know, my disability, you know, um,
I refused to wear the hearing aid and often so
angry because I was deafblind. But, you know, now reflecting back,
(18:41):
I'm proud to have these disabilities because it put me
on a path to the career I've got today. And
I know I make a big difference to people's lives
with disability. It's a passion. It's the much needed service
in WA. I mean, to treat our little unit. We're
the only community law centre that had this funding. No
(19:04):
other law centre had it. you know, on the back
of the disability royal commission. Very, very little money put
into advocacy or disability rights, legal services.
S2 (19:14):
And we are aware that there is a high representation in,
in the prison system, especially for those who have an
intellectual disability or have other mental health issues or ADHD
and those types of impairments because they haven't been recognized,
(19:36):
their disability or their impairment hasn't been recognized. Would that
be right?
S3 (19:40):
Yeah. That's correct. We're actually hoping to secure some funding
from the Children's Magistrate Court. So this is this is
the magistrate court is primarily for for children under the
age of 18 who have committed criminal offences. And so
(20:00):
what we've been asked by the Children's Court to have
a present Picard. Currently, the children at risk who have
got undiagnosed disabilities or do have disabilities that are not
getting the support that they need to, you know, to
(20:21):
stay out of the justice. And the same goes for,
you know, adults who are in the prison system. They're undiagnosed.
We do provide a service around that as well. Our
advocacy work with the prisoners in Katerini and Bancsa. But
it's the long road to get that diagnosis because you
(20:44):
need the funding to get the medical diagnosed. Yeah.
S2 (20:47):
It's an endless circle.
S3 (20:49):
Yeah, yeah, very, very much needed area.
S2 (20:53):
So you've been working in and around the disability sector
for quite a long time now. Have you seen many
changes and what would be the highlights of some of
the changes and improvements that you've seen?
S3 (21:05):
When I first came over? Well, back to Australia 13
years ago. And you've got to remember, I lived in
the UK for many years. Um, and that, though much
more advanced culturally, that they're much more advanced, you know. Um,
(21:27):
and I came to wa it was like going back
in a time warp. And I just thought, and that
was one of my insecurities when I first came, I thought,
how the hell am I going to cope here, you know? But, um,
I have, I've, you know, um, I've been on the
state ministerial board. I've really enjoyed that role for the
(21:48):
last three years. And look, the state government and the
federal government work closely with the disability community or the
reps of the state. And things have improved. Um, I
can see that from when I first came. But yes,
there's much more that needs to be improved and culturally
(22:10):
it will take time.
S2 (22:12):
What would you say are the key areas that need
immediate improvement?
S3 (22:17):
Um, okay, so the big one for me is about attitude.
It's about attitude and society. And you know, just because
you've got a disability, it doesn't mean to say that
you're not capable of, um, having, you know, employment. Um,
they have the perception that if you have a disability,
(22:38):
no matter what your disability is, whether you're legally blind
or artistic or intellectual disability, everybody had the right to
debate the human right, you know, to have employment. Um,
but I think, you know, a lot of employers are
too frightened to take a person on disability because it
(22:59):
might cost money. A typical example when I first started
a stutter street I'm a firm believer on customized employment.
S2 (23:08):
So sorry. Say that again. Customized.
S3 (23:10):
So I'm going to use myself as a typical example. Yes.
So I thought of that. And I will struggle to
new the photocopying machine because it's not acceptable. Or I
might struggle to upload my email into the case management system.
And so the team I worked with are sort of
(23:34):
educated them and brought them on board and said, hey, look,
I can't do everything. And they sort of work with
me and they're actually helping me with the reasonable adjustment.
And it worked out really, really well. Um, and it's
about making the job fit for you. Yeah. You know,
for example, you might have a person who, um, and
(23:56):
they are moving out of the, um, you know, the
porter's employment workshop.
S2 (24:01):
Yes.
S3 (24:02):
You know, you can't really say to a person with
an intellectual disability, Stability. Hey, I think you should go
and do a cleaning job. It's not about what what
the person thinks that person should have. It's the looking
at the person skilled and and exploring what their skill
set is. It may be that they they actually don't
(24:25):
want to do cleaning. They might want to do shop work.
They might want to do admin work. It's about making
the job work for them.
S2 (24:32):
It's turning the tables on them. Rita, there must be
a lot of perceptions in the community. People will see
you with your guide dog and people understand that and go, ah, blind. Okay.
Are you deaf as well? And they must find that
quite outstanding and shocking. Do you get much feedback about
that situation?
S3 (24:51):
Yeah. Of course. Look, I've had clients come in and
they thought of me with the guide dog. And, um,
have a paralegal helping me. And, you know, a couple
of people have said, oh, well, you know, if you
can't stay in here, how are you going to represent me? Mhm. Um.
I said, look, you don't need to worry about my disability.
Just give me your facts of your case and and
(25:14):
you know what? That that perception changes.
S2 (25:17):
One of the reasons why this program exists is to
bring people like yourself in, reader, that we don't want
to put you on a pedestal because you are like
everybody else, and you've done the hard work and you've
got the you've achieved all that you've achieved, and you've
always spent your time in the different roles that you've done,
(25:37):
giving back to the community and trying to instill the
same kind of enthusiasm and resilience in others. Would that
be right, Rita?
S3 (25:48):
My motto is this simply is that we don't like
to give a handout. We give you a hand up
and we walk alongside you. We help you to build
that resilience. We help you to build that self-advocacy so
that you can fend thunder for your own right. Um.
(26:08):
And that the the fact of the matter.
S2 (26:11):
Now, we'll have to finish now, Rita. Two things that
I want to remind people of is that the people
with disabilities Western Australia State Conference will be coming up
on the 19th and 20th of June, and Rita will
be presenting there. And she will be demonstrating how to
empower young people to create the young leaders of tomorrow.
(26:34):
And your presentation about the education and so forth. And
also at the end of June is Deafblind week. Are
you participating in anything to do with that, Rita?
S3 (26:44):
I am yeah, I'm presenting at that as well. The
presentation will be on self-advocacy. Self-Advocacy? Yeah. And we're launching
on that week the Leadership Program.
S2 (26:55):
We look forward to hearing more about that. We'll be
having a number of guests coming up in future programs
that we'll be discussing different aspects of the deafblind week,
because I find it really interesting and there's so much
going on and there's so much we need to know
about that area.
S3 (27:10):
Been a pleasure having a talk with you. Timing. And
it's good to get the voice out there. And, you know,
if you ever need any legal assistance, look me up.
S2 (27:21):
Will do. And just to remind people, yes, if you
do need that kind of assistance, I look up Sussex
Street Community Legal Service and we'll put that information on
our podcast description for those listening to the podcast. Thanks
once again for coming into the studio, Rita.
S3 (27:37):
You're welcome. Simon.
S2 (27:38):
Bye for now.
S1 (27:40):
That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us,
Abby Green and Simon Chong at the same time. Next
week on Vision Australia Radio, VA radio digital and online
at VA radio. You can also listen on demand by
searching for In Plain Sight wherever you get your podcasts,
or ask your smart device to play in Plain sight
(28:02):
by Vision Australia Radio. Thanks for listening.
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