July 31, 2025 • 24 mins
French President Emmanuel Macron, and Canadian and UK prime ministers Mark Carney and Keir Starmer have all called for Palestine to be recognised one way or another.
But Anthony Albanese remains cautious. So what is the Australian Prime Minister waiting for?
This week on Inside Politics, European correspondent David Crowe, national security correspondent Matthew Knott and chief political correspondent Paul Sakkal explain.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:01):
Hi, it's Pulsacao here from the Canberra bureau of the
Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is inside politics
and it's Friday, August 1st. Your regular host, Jackie Maley,
is away, so I'll be steering the ship today as
we navigate a big week in politics. The main issue
has been Israel and Gaza, nearly two years on from
the start of the conflict, and whether we've finally reached
(00:22):
a tipping point. Joining me today is national security correspondent
Matthew Knott and our special guest, former political chief turned
European correspondent and always friend of the pod, David Crowe. Welcome, guys.
S2 (00:36):
Hello. Great to be back.
S1 (00:38):
This has been a really big week in domestic debate
on Israel. It started on Sunday when the prime Minister
was on ABC's insiders program, where he pretty significantly stepped
up his language on Israel after weeks of pretty shocking
images that indicate starvation in the Gaza Strip. Has he
been freed up a bit on this issue? Has the
global debate shifted? What prompted him to take that step
(01:00):
of calling out Israel's behavior. And what has it done
to domestic debate here?
S3 (01:04):
Yes, I think we're seeing a growing exasperation around the world,
including among Israel's closest allies, about what is happening in
Gaza now.
S4 (01:17):
A U.N. backed monitor has in the last hour said
that the worst case scenario of famine is playing out
in the Gaza Strip.
S5 (01:26):
UN relief agency claims a fifth of children in Gaza
City alone are suffering malnutrition, and more than 100 mostly
young people, have died of hunger.
S6 (01:35):
Desperate and hungry, thousands of Palestinians scramble onto aid trucks
that have just entered the Gaza Strip. They grab what
they can, anything for the chance to feed themselves and
their families.
S3 (01:50):
It's all I think, to do with the images of
starvation and suffering are long, long lines for food. Reports
of many people, hundreds of people being shot while trying
to get food. And of course, are particularly images of
emaciated children. Or we've seen throughout history that images like
(02:14):
this can have a big impact, even in wars that
are going on for a long time. You know, this
war in Gaza has now gone on for over 18 months,
but we are seeing an upswell around the world of
leaders saying that this war needs to stop. It's gone
too far, and particularly that more aid needs to get in.
(02:34):
So Anthony Albanese has joined statements by world leaders about this,
and he was asked about it on the weekend. And
he did say unequivocally that he thinks Israel breached international law.
S7 (02:47):
Well, quite clearly, it is a breach of international law
to stop food being delivered, which was the decision that
Israel made in March.
S3 (03:00):
This was in March when Israel a completely blocked all
aid going into Gaza until May. And since then we've
seen that the controversial Gaza Humanitarian Foundation offering aid. But
what people say on the ground is that, you know,
there's a backlog or essentially what we're seeing now are
(03:20):
the impacts of that decision taken in March. And, yeah,
he's he's pretty exasperated, uh, with the Netanyahu government, we're
seeing this from similar leaders, the leaders of France, Britain,
also Germany, which has been extremely close, uh, with Israel.
So I don't think he thinks he has anything to
lose domestically by criticizing the Netanyahu government, which he also
(03:44):
makes a point of saying is unpopular with many, if
not a majority of Israelis themselves.
S1 (03:49):
Yeah. As you've written, I think last week, there's a
hardening of opinion inside Israel, too, which often gets overlooked
in Western debate. So he's speaking the prime minister, speaking
in stronger terms about Israel's Behavior. We're also seeing Canada
and the U.K., as you mentioned, countries with whom the
Prime minister at least says in private he would like
to move forward in lock step with on the issue
(04:10):
of recognition of the Palestinian state. He's arguing for this
kind of principled position where he's increasingly calling out Israel's behavior,
but only contemplating recognition in a form that would not
be a token gesture. He wants to get bang for
his buck. He wants to do it at a time
when there is actually a prospect of peace or some
grand coalition with Hamas moving out of Gaza. How long
(04:33):
can he hold that line with the rest of the
Western world moving forward on the issue of recognition?
S3 (04:38):
Yeah, I think he's going to struggle to hold that line.
It feels like events are moving very, very quickly. And
from what we're seeing in recent days, France, the UK, Canada,
these are countries that Australia identifies with. We talk about
like minded nations. It's clear that the nations are not
(05:02):
moving completely in lockstep. You know, we're seeing it on
different days. All these leaders have their own domestic concerns
that they're responding to. It's not like these joint statements
that we've seen with three, four, five, even, you know,
over 20 countries signing up together at the one time,
we might have perhaps expected that on this, but it's
clearly not happening. There's clearly not that level of coordination. Uh,
(05:28):
and it was interesting on insiders when it did seem, uh,
listening to him, that the Prime Minister was presenting all
the challenges to recognition and all the obstacles to it
and the preconditions that would need to be met for
Australia to do it. It seemed like he was pressing
the brakes on recognition.
S7 (05:48):
Uh, how do you exclude Hamas from any involvement there?
How do you ensure that a Palestinian state operates in
an appropriate way, which does not threaten the existence of Israel?
And so we won't do any decision as a gesture.
We will do it as a way forward. Uh, if
(06:11):
the circumstances are met.
S8 (06:13):
So at the moment.
S3 (06:14):
But since then, we've seen the UK and Canada do it,
very aware that there's overwhelming support within the Labour caucus
and the Labour rank and file to recognize a Palestine,
even if that's pretty muted within the caucus. Ed Husic
is the leading voice there, but the UN General Assembly
(06:35):
is not until September. It's hard to imagine the Prime
Minister withstanding what's going to be growing pressure to recognise,
and he wants to do so himself. He's wanted to
do so throughout his whole political career. He's always said
it's the question of the timing, but, you know, events
are moving very quickly.
S1 (06:56):
David Knotty there mentioned the different domestic scenarios for the
Canadian and British leaders who have made these calls for
recognition this week, can you explain a bit about what
Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, is facing in his
own party and the circumstances that led to him calling
for a Palestinian statehood earlier this week?
S2 (07:17):
He's facing a large backbench that's got a strong opinion
about recognizing a Palestinian state, and that's that's clearly a
factor for him domestically. The way I wrote the story
and the way that I saw it at the time,
was really not just an argument about the theory of
(07:38):
Palestinian statehood. It was really to use this as a
diplomatic message to Israel, to try to get something happening
with the problem of the starvation and the lack of
progress on getting a ceasefire. So with that changing public
opinion within the UK, um, Starmer came out with the
announcement about recognition of Palestinian statehood with conditions.
S9 (08:02):
So today, as part of this process towards peace, I
can confirm the UK will recognise the State of Palestine
by the United Nations General Assembly in September unless the
Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation
in Gaza.
S2 (08:22):
With this message to Israel that he wouldn't move on
statehood if Israel would actually move on ceasefire and getting
aid through to Palestinian civilians, it's hard to see a
situation where Israel does what Keir Starmer wants. The message
back from Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, was
just a very angry, total rejection. So you can't see
(08:45):
that Starmer is having any progress there. But that's what
he was seeking to do to put the onus on Israel.
And I do find that there's an interesting kind of
contrast with what, um, Canada has done because Prime Minister
Mark Carney in Canada also says that Canada will recognize
a Palestinian state in September. Same time frame at the
(09:07):
UN General Assembly. But Carney frames this as conditional on
what the Palestinian Authority would do. And he says the
Palestinian Authority must hold an election in 2026 and commit
to democracy. So he's trying to put the onus on
the Palestinian side in terms of what he would do
by the UN General Assembly in September.
S3 (09:29):
And just to point out some of the many complexities
and difficulties here. So there's yes, there's growing demand for
the Palestinian system to be democratized and for elections to
be held. But there's also a demand that Hamas have
absolutely no role to play when Hamas is one of
the two main political parties, according to many polls. Even now.
(09:51):
It might still perhaps be the most popular party. So
the world's demanding a democratic Palestine, but with no role
for one of the main parties, and you get into
many practical problems when you get beyond the symbolic issue
of recognition.
S1 (10:08):
And David Starmer hosted Donald Trump this Week in Scotland.
There's been this debate about what is actually going on
in Gaza, with Benjamin Netanyahu denying there is starvation, and
particularly denying that Israel has a role in causing that.
S10 (10:24):
What a bold face lie. There is no policy of
starvation in Gaza and there is no starvation in Gaza.
S1 (10:35):
What does Donald Trump say this week about what's going
on in Gaza? And what does that reveal about kind
of Western opinion on the issue?
S2 (10:42):
I think it revealed that opinion is being influenced by
what people can see on television, what they can see
in the news about what's happening in Gaza. And we
know from reputable aid organizations that we're talking about widespread
starvation and genuine hunger. And it's not a media beat up.
(11:04):
And Donald Trump's comments really amplified that because he he
called it starvation. And he was asked by a journalist
at his appearance with Keir Starmer in Scotland, um, about
Benjamin Netanyahu's remark that there was no starvation in Gaza.
And Trump said.
S11 (11:22):
I don't know. I mean, based on television, I would
say not particularly because those children look very hungry.
S2 (11:27):
But later on, he said, some of those kids, that's
real starvation stuff.
S11 (11:33):
Good strong food. We can save a lot of people.
I mean, some of those kids are. That's real starvation stuff.
I see it, and you can't fake that. So we're
going to be, uh, even more now.
S2 (11:47):
We know that Donald Trump is a massive consumer of television.
And I think you can see from his remarks here
he's being influenced by what he's seeing in the media.
It's not just about, you know, private advice from security
advisors and so forth. But I think he's also been
influenced by Keir Starmer because they do seem to get along.
It's a bit unlikely in many ways because Keir Starmer
(12:09):
is coming from the left. But Keir Starmer was there
at Donald Trump's golf course. Starmer's wife Victoria, was also there. Um,
it seemed to be quite convivial and maybe that had
some influence. Starmer had briefed to the British media before
this Scottish appearance that Gaza was the top item on
the agenda. So Starmer's objective was to move Trump on Gaza.
(12:34):
And I think you would have to say that he
got something out of that.
S3 (12:37):
And a whole underlying factor with this whole Palestinian discussion
has been, uh, Donald Trump and how important he sees
the issue. For example, if Australia recognizes Palestine or that
make it harder for us to get a good deal
on tariffs, will that influence this review into Aukus? Uh,
(12:57):
people in the government don't want to go there Explicitly,
they say that we're making independent decisions as a sovereign nation,
but there's a big awareness that you don't want to
annoy Donald Trump. So by sitting back, Anthony Albanese can
see how Trump is reacting to what the UK is
doing to what Canada is doing. And it seems that
(13:20):
he's said clearly that he doesn't agree with recognising Palestine now.
But he doesn't seem angry at Starmer over it. As
David says, the two get along and Starmer has received
the best trade deal so far from Trump. So I
think Albanese will be taking some comfort in that, that
it's not the central issue for Trump and perhaps he
(13:41):
can move and not be punished. You know, he's looking
at getting a meeting with Trump and all these issues.
From what we've seen so far, it seems that he
could proceed and have a good relationship with Trump while
joining the UK and Canada and France by recognising Palestine.
S1 (13:59):
Another big moment in the Australian debate on what's going
on in Gaza this week. Knotty were claims from the
Israeli embassy that there is no starvation going on in Gaza.
You're in this briefing that I think was held by
the deputy ambassador. Can you tell us what happened there
and why the Israeli embassy took this step?
S3 (14:18):
Yeah, it was interesting timing, to say the least, because
this briefing for a small group of journalists from broadcast
and print media, it came up right as Israel was
changing its aid distribution policy, and the government had announced
these ten hour tactical pauses, and they were now airdrops
(14:39):
in Gaza and opening up more corridors, which seems to
be an acknowledgement from the government that something is wrong,
that more aid needs to be getting to the people
of Gaza. And yet, as that's happening, journalists are called
into a briefing where we're told that there's no starvation,
not just that there's not a deliberate policy of starvation,
(15:02):
or that it's Hamas's fault that there's starvation, but that
it's essentially fake news, that there is starvation in Gaza,
despite everything we're seeing, despite the numbers that we're receiving
from organizations like the UN. To be honest, it had
a bit of a feel of don't believe your own
lying eyes. And yeah, it's strange. It clearly it followed
(15:26):
what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had said earlier. So I
think this is clearly a top down directive from the
Israeli government that they wanted their diplomats around the world
to put out this message now, but I don't know
how well timed it was given. Uh, clearly most people
think there is starvation in Gaza. There's overwhelming evidence that
(15:50):
that is happening. We should probably be smarter just to
say we're going to do our best to allow more
aid in while limiting, uh, Hamas's ability to get any
of it. It was curious timing.
S1 (16:02):
I know there was quite a bit of discomfort, even
among some of the Jewish groups privately at these comments.
I don't think they thought they were politically astute. But
then a few days later, it was revealed by the
New York Times that one of the key images of
the one year old boy who provoked quite an emotional
response from the Prime Minister on Sunday, and that inside
his interview, uh, had pre-existing conditions that might have exacerbated
(16:24):
his appearance of, uh, being malnourished. Is that a significant fact,
or is that one small piece of evidence when there's
actually much more clear empirical evidence of malnourishment and starvation?
S3 (16:37):
I think it's a small piece of evidence, and many
people are very fixated on this one photo, which did
receive global attention, including on the front page of our papers. Um,
in journalism, the full story always matters. Context always matters. Um,
if you were there reporting, you'd want to know as
(16:58):
much as possible about the family and the people you're
writing about, and that should all be disclosed. But this
isn't the one case. This isn't the only child. And
if it was, that would be a single case. The
point is that it was pointing to a bigger issue
here of starvation. The the there are the numbers. There
(17:18):
are many other photos, many other cases. The idea that, uh,
this child also had pre-existing conditions which have then been
worsened by an inability to get baby formula, the idea
that that somehow knocks out the idea that there's starvation
in Gaza doesn't really stack up.
S1 (17:37):
Mhm. So I wonder what's next. David, there's been talk
in Australia from the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, that the
Palestinian Authority, this more moderate political force that might one
day take over from Hamas is reforming and is calling
for the release of hostages. I think it's still very
early signs. The Arab League nations also for the first time,
condemned Hamas's October 7th attacks this week, which has sparked
(18:01):
some positivity about a potential move from Arab states to
bring about peace. Is there any chance of peace on
the horizon or a grand bargain led by the US
and Saudi Arabia?
S2 (18:12):
It seems fairly unlikely because when you look at the
reaction from Israel, it's so vehemently opposed to these new
messages from around the world that it's hard to see
Benjamin Netanyahu and his government changing course simply because of
these global signals. I mean, really, the priority has got
to be to get food aid in. And Israel says
(18:34):
it is helping on that front. But the aid organizations,
I mean, the detail from them is incredible in terms
of the number of trucks that they've got available and
the amount of food they've got available and the amount
that they simply cannot get across the border and into
Gaza to the people who need it. So I think
that really is the priority, um, in terms of the
(18:54):
global discussions about a ceasefire or pressure on Israel. It's still,
you know, it's still moving. I think, um, with a
lot of discussions behind closed doors where we can't be
sure of any concrete outcome. Donald Trump is impatient with Netanyahu.
I think that's clear from his his messages. But whether
(19:16):
that leads to anything is always impossible to tell with
Donald Trump. Um, Keir Starmer is actually incredibly active. He
didn't just call, um, Anthony Albanese to talk about Gaza.
He talked to Christopher Luxon, put in a call there
to the New Zealand prime minister, who's also been talking
to the United Arab Emirates as well. So he's really
(19:38):
trying to move behind the scenes to really push this.
So maybe we get to something at the United Nations
in September, where there's a growing clamour around putting pressure
on on Israel. Um, but that's still a fair way
down the track. And I think it'd be, uh, I'd
want to be cautious about whether it's going to lead
(19:58):
to anything concrete.
S1 (20:00):
Um, And what about in Australia? Not for many years
we've thought about Palestinian recognition as something that comes at
the end of a peace process, when there is actually
a potential state, there to be governed. We're in a
perpetual war here. Hamas is still in control. Doesn't that
lend weight to the Prime Minister's view that recognising now
(20:21):
would simply be tokenism? And I mean, if you look
at what Keir Starmer is saying, he's using recognition almost
as a leverage tool. That was never how recognition was conceived.
So is the Prime Minister right to wait and what's
next from him, do you think?
S3 (20:36):
Yeah, I think he's right to want it to be
something more than tokenistic, more than symbolic, because the vast
majority of the world's countries have recognised Palestine. That doesn't
really mean anything on the ground as more countries have
recognised Palestine. The actual prospect of a Palestinian state has
(20:56):
been moving further away in the tangible, concrete facts on
the ground when you're talking about the huge growth of
settlements in the West Bank, for example, that many people
now say would basically make it impossible perhaps to have
a functioning state there, because there are over 500,000 Israelis
(21:16):
living in what is supposed to be a Palestinian state.
Others say, look, there are ways to deal with that,
with carve outs, and you move people around and we've
got to keep this idea alive. So the Prime Minister
is absolutely right that there are huge obstacles here, and
you want it to be useful. Uh, the flip side
to that is that the formulas and the templates of
(21:42):
this debate clearly haven't moved it in the right direction.
And there's this whole consensus around the world about the
way this peace process should work. But that's incredibly theoretical.
It's been going nowhere. We've had the October 7th attacks.
We've had the war. We've had the Israeli government moving
in a much more right wing direction. So I think
(22:06):
there's an element of desperation to some of this, of
saying what we're doing isn't working. We're going to try
and turn over the table, change up the playbook. Um,
hopefully recognition will do something useful. Uh, but I do
think it's from that place of, uh, well-meaning, you know,
but but rather desperate attempt to make something happen here.
(22:27):
And maybe it will nudge things in the right direction.
Some of the commitments from the Palestinian Authority sound good,
but it's obviously a huge problem that there's no buy
in from the Israeli side, not just the Netanyahu government,
but even the left wing parties in Israel say this
whole recognition push is so badly timed. You know, you're
(22:50):
going to need, uh, two partners for peace and a
two state solution who are going to have to make big,
difficult historic compromises on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side.
And that's something we don't have yet.
S1 (23:05):
Mm. Well, it's devastating that we're even talking about this
two years on, but, uh, it was great to talk
to two of the best informed journalists on this topic
in the country, although he's not in the country anymore. But, David,
it was great to have you. Thanks both for joining.
S2 (23:20):
Great to be back. Thanks.
S3 (23:22):
Thanks for that.
S1 (23:30):
Today's episode was produced by. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
and Tom McKendrick is head of Audio. To listen to
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To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting the
page or subscribe. I'm Paul Cockle. Thank you for listening.
Hi, it's Pulsacao here from the Canberra bureau of the
Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is inside politics
and it's Friday, August 1st. Your regular host, Jackie Maley,
is away, so I'll be steering the ship today as
we navigate a big week in politics. The main issue
has been Israel and Gaza, nearly two years on from
the start of the conflict, and whether we've finally reached
(00:22):
a tipping point. Joining me today is national security correspondent
Matthew Knott and our special guest, former political chief turned
European correspondent and always friend of the pod, David Crowe. Welcome, guys.
S2 (00:36):
Hello. Great to be back.
S1 (00:38):
This has been a really big week in domestic debate
on Israel. It started on Sunday when the prime Minister
was on ABC's insiders program, where he pretty significantly stepped
up his language on Israel after weeks of pretty shocking
images that indicate starvation in the Gaza Strip. Has he
been freed up a bit on this issue? Has the
global debate shifted? What prompted him to take that step
(01:00):
of calling out Israel's behavior. And what has it done
to domestic debate here?
S3 (01:04):
Yes, I think we're seeing a growing exasperation around the world,
including among Israel's closest allies, about what is happening in
Gaza now.
S4 (01:17):
A U.N. backed monitor has in the last hour said
that the worst case scenario of famine is playing out
in the Gaza Strip.
S5 (01:26):
UN relief agency claims a fifth of children in Gaza
City alone are suffering malnutrition, and more than 100 mostly
young people, have died of hunger.
S6 (01:35):
Desperate and hungry, thousands of Palestinians scramble onto aid trucks
that have just entered the Gaza Strip. They grab what
they can, anything for the chance to feed themselves and
their families.
S3 (01:50):
It's all I think, to do with the images of
starvation and suffering are long, long lines for food. Reports
of many people, hundreds of people being shot while trying
to get food. And of course, are particularly images of
emaciated children. Or we've seen throughout history that images like
(02:14):
this can have a big impact, even in wars that
are going on for a long time. You know, this
war in Gaza has now gone on for over 18 months,
but we are seeing an upswell around the world of
leaders saying that this war needs to stop. It's gone
too far, and particularly that more aid needs to get in.
(02:34):
So Anthony Albanese has joined statements by world leaders about this,
and he was asked about it on the weekend. And
he did say unequivocally that he thinks Israel breached international law.
S7 (02:47):
Well, quite clearly, it is a breach of international law
to stop food being delivered, which was the decision that
Israel made in March.
S3 (03:00):
This was in March when Israel a completely blocked all
aid going into Gaza until May. And since then we've
seen that the controversial Gaza Humanitarian Foundation offering aid. But
what people say on the ground is that, you know,
there's a backlog or essentially what we're seeing now are
(03:20):
the impacts of that decision taken in March. And, yeah,
he's he's pretty exasperated, uh, with the Netanyahu government, we're
seeing this from similar leaders, the leaders of France, Britain,
also Germany, which has been extremely close, uh, with Israel.
So I don't think he thinks he has anything to
lose domestically by criticizing the Netanyahu government, which he also
(03:44):
makes a point of saying is unpopular with many, if
not a majority of Israelis themselves.
S1 (03:49):
Yeah. As you've written, I think last week, there's a
hardening of opinion inside Israel, too, which often gets overlooked
in Western debate. So he's speaking the prime minister, speaking
in stronger terms about Israel's Behavior. We're also seeing Canada
and the U.K., as you mentioned, countries with whom the
Prime minister at least says in private he would like
to move forward in lock step with on the issue
(04:10):
of recognition of the Palestinian state. He's arguing for this
kind of principled position where he's increasingly calling out Israel's behavior,
but only contemplating recognition in a form that would not
be a token gesture. He wants to get bang for
his buck. He wants to do it at a time
when there is actually a prospect of peace or some
grand coalition with Hamas moving out of Gaza. How long
(04:33):
can he hold that line with the rest of the
Western world moving forward on the issue of recognition?
S3 (04:38):
Yeah, I think he's going to struggle to hold that line.
It feels like events are moving very, very quickly. And
from what we're seeing in recent days, France, the UK, Canada,
these are countries that Australia identifies with. We talk about
like minded nations. It's clear that the nations are not
(05:02):
moving completely in lockstep. You know, we're seeing it on
different days. All these leaders have their own domestic concerns
that they're responding to. It's not like these joint statements
that we've seen with three, four, five, even, you know,
over 20 countries signing up together at the one time,
we might have perhaps expected that on this, but it's
clearly not happening. There's clearly not that level of coordination. Uh,
(05:28):
and it was interesting on insiders when it did seem, uh,
listening to him, that the Prime Minister was presenting all
the challenges to recognition and all the obstacles to it
and the preconditions that would need to be met for
Australia to do it. It seemed like he was pressing
the brakes on recognition.
S7 (05:48):
Uh, how do you exclude Hamas from any involvement there?
How do you ensure that a Palestinian state operates in
an appropriate way, which does not threaten the existence of Israel?
And so we won't do any decision as a gesture.
We will do it as a way forward. Uh, if
(06:11):
the circumstances are met.
S8 (06:13):
So at the moment.
S3 (06:14):
But since then, we've seen the UK and Canada do it,
very aware that there's overwhelming support within the Labour caucus
and the Labour rank and file to recognize a Palestine,
even if that's pretty muted within the caucus. Ed Husic
is the leading voice there, but the UN General Assembly
(06:35):
is not until September. It's hard to imagine the Prime
Minister withstanding what's going to be growing pressure to recognise,
and he wants to do so himself. He's wanted to
do so throughout his whole political career. He's always said
it's the question of the timing, but, you know, events
are moving very quickly.
S1 (06:56):
David Knotty there mentioned the different domestic scenarios for the
Canadian and British leaders who have made these calls for
recognition this week, can you explain a bit about what
Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, is facing in his
own party and the circumstances that led to him calling
for a Palestinian statehood earlier this week?
S2 (07:17):
He's facing a large backbench that's got a strong opinion
about recognizing a Palestinian state, and that's that's clearly a
factor for him domestically. The way I wrote the story
and the way that I saw it at the time,
was really not just an argument about the theory of
(07:38):
Palestinian statehood. It was really to use this as a
diplomatic message to Israel, to try to get something happening
with the problem of the starvation and the lack of
progress on getting a ceasefire. So with that changing public
opinion within the UK, um, Starmer came out with the
announcement about recognition of Palestinian statehood with conditions.
S9 (08:02):
So today, as part of this process towards peace, I
can confirm the UK will recognise the State of Palestine
by the United Nations General Assembly in September unless the
Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation
in Gaza.
S2 (08:22):
With this message to Israel that he wouldn't move on
statehood if Israel would actually move on ceasefire and getting
aid through to Palestinian civilians, it's hard to see a
situation where Israel does what Keir Starmer wants. The message
back from Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, was
just a very angry, total rejection. So you can't see
(08:45):
that Starmer is having any progress there. But that's what
he was seeking to do to put the onus on Israel.
And I do find that there's an interesting kind of
contrast with what, um, Canada has done because Prime Minister
Mark Carney in Canada also says that Canada will recognize
a Palestinian state in September. Same time frame at the
(09:07):
UN General Assembly. But Carney frames this as conditional on
what the Palestinian Authority would do. And he says the
Palestinian Authority must hold an election in 2026 and commit
to democracy. So he's trying to put the onus on
the Palestinian side in terms of what he would do
by the UN General Assembly in September.
S3 (09:29):
And just to point out some of the many complexities
and difficulties here. So there's yes, there's growing demand for
the Palestinian system to be democratized and for elections to
be held. But there's also a demand that Hamas have
absolutely no role to play when Hamas is one of
the two main political parties, according to many polls. Even now.
(09:51):
It might still perhaps be the most popular party. So
the world's demanding a democratic Palestine, but with no role
for one of the main parties, and you get into
many practical problems when you get beyond the symbolic issue
of recognition.
S1 (10:08):
And David Starmer hosted Donald Trump this Week in Scotland.
There's been this debate about what is actually going on
in Gaza, with Benjamin Netanyahu denying there is starvation, and
particularly denying that Israel has a role in causing that.
S10 (10:24):
What a bold face lie. There is no policy of
starvation in Gaza and there is no starvation in Gaza.
S1 (10:35):
What does Donald Trump say this week about what's going
on in Gaza? And what does that reveal about kind
of Western opinion on the issue?
S2 (10:42):
I think it revealed that opinion is being influenced by
what people can see on television, what they can see
in the news about what's happening in Gaza. And we
know from reputable aid organizations that we're talking about widespread
starvation and genuine hunger. And it's not a media beat up.
(11:04):
And Donald Trump's comments really amplified that because he he
called it starvation. And he was asked by a journalist
at his appearance with Keir Starmer in Scotland, um, about
Benjamin Netanyahu's remark that there was no starvation in Gaza.
And Trump said.
S11 (11:22):
I don't know. I mean, based on television, I would
say not particularly because those children look very hungry.
S2 (11:27):
But later on, he said, some of those kids, that's
real starvation stuff.
S11 (11:33):
Good strong food. We can save a lot of people.
I mean, some of those kids are. That's real starvation stuff.
I see it, and you can't fake that. So we're
going to be, uh, even more now.
S2 (11:47):
We know that Donald Trump is a massive consumer of television.
And I think you can see from his remarks here
he's being influenced by what he's seeing in the media.
It's not just about, you know, private advice from security
advisors and so forth. But I think he's also been
influenced by Keir Starmer because they do seem to get along.
It's a bit unlikely in many ways because Keir Starmer
(12:09):
is coming from the left. But Keir Starmer was there
at Donald Trump's golf course. Starmer's wife Victoria, was also there. Um,
it seemed to be quite convivial and maybe that had
some influence. Starmer had briefed to the British media before
this Scottish appearance that Gaza was the top item on
the agenda. So Starmer's objective was to move Trump on Gaza.
(12:34):
And I think you would have to say that he
got something out of that.
S3 (12:37):
And a whole underlying factor with this whole Palestinian discussion
has been, uh, Donald Trump and how important he sees
the issue. For example, if Australia recognizes Palestine or that
make it harder for us to get a good deal
on tariffs, will that influence this review into Aukus? Uh,
(12:57):
people in the government don't want to go there Explicitly,
they say that we're making independent decisions as a sovereign nation,
but there's a big awareness that you don't want to
annoy Donald Trump. So by sitting back, Anthony Albanese can
see how Trump is reacting to what the UK is
doing to what Canada is doing. And it seems that
(13:20):
he's said clearly that he doesn't agree with recognising Palestine now.
But he doesn't seem angry at Starmer over it. As
David says, the two get along and Starmer has received
the best trade deal so far from Trump. So I
think Albanese will be taking some comfort in that, that
it's not the central issue for Trump and perhaps he
(13:41):
can move and not be punished. You know, he's looking
at getting a meeting with Trump and all these issues.
From what we've seen so far, it seems that he
could proceed and have a good relationship with Trump while
joining the UK and Canada and France by recognising Palestine.
S1 (13:59):
Another big moment in the Australian debate on what's going
on in Gaza this week. Knotty were claims from the
Israeli embassy that there is no starvation going on in Gaza.
You're in this briefing that I think was held by
the deputy ambassador. Can you tell us what happened there
and why the Israeli embassy took this step?
S3 (14:18):
Yeah, it was interesting timing, to say the least, because
this briefing for a small group of journalists from broadcast
and print media, it came up right as Israel was
changing its aid distribution policy, and the government had announced
these ten hour tactical pauses, and they were now airdrops
(14:39):
in Gaza and opening up more corridors, which seems to
be an acknowledgement from the government that something is wrong,
that more aid needs to be getting to the people
of Gaza. And yet, as that's happening, journalists are called
into a briefing where we're told that there's no starvation,
not just that there's not a deliberate policy of starvation,
(15:02):
or that it's Hamas's fault that there's starvation, but that
it's essentially fake news, that there is starvation in Gaza,
despite everything we're seeing, despite the numbers that we're receiving
from organizations like the UN. To be honest, it had
a bit of a feel of don't believe your own
lying eyes. And yeah, it's strange. It clearly it followed
(15:26):
what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had said earlier. So I
think this is clearly a top down directive from the
Israeli government that they wanted their diplomats around the world
to put out this message now, but I don't know
how well timed it was given. Uh, clearly most people
think there is starvation in Gaza. There's overwhelming evidence that
(15:50):
that is happening. We should probably be smarter just to
say we're going to do our best to allow more
aid in while limiting, uh, Hamas's ability to get any
of it. It was curious timing.
S1 (16:02):
I know there was quite a bit of discomfort, even
among some of the Jewish groups privately at these comments.
I don't think they thought they were politically astute. But
then a few days later, it was revealed by the
New York Times that one of the key images of
the one year old boy who provoked quite an emotional
response from the Prime Minister on Sunday, and that inside
his interview, uh, had pre-existing conditions that might have exacerbated
(16:24):
his appearance of, uh, being malnourished. Is that a significant fact,
or is that one small piece of evidence when there's
actually much more clear empirical evidence of malnourishment and starvation?
S3 (16:37):
I think it's a small piece of evidence, and many
people are very fixated on this one photo, which did
receive global attention, including on the front page of our papers. Um,
in journalism, the full story always matters. Context always matters. Um,
if you were there reporting, you'd want to know as
(16:58):
much as possible about the family and the people you're
writing about, and that should all be disclosed. But this
isn't the one case. This isn't the only child. And
if it was, that would be a single case. The
point is that it was pointing to a bigger issue
here of starvation. The the there are the numbers. There
(17:18):
are many other photos, many other cases. The idea that, uh,
this child also had pre-existing conditions which have then been
worsened by an inability to get baby formula, the idea
that that somehow knocks out the idea that there's starvation
in Gaza doesn't really stack up.
S1 (17:37):
Mhm. So I wonder what's next. David, there's been talk
in Australia from the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, that the
Palestinian Authority, this more moderate political force that might one
day take over from Hamas is reforming and is calling
for the release of hostages. I think it's still very
early signs. The Arab League nations also for the first time,
condemned Hamas's October 7th attacks this week, which has sparked
(18:01):
some positivity about a potential move from Arab states to
bring about peace. Is there any chance of peace on
the horizon or a grand bargain led by the US
and Saudi Arabia?
S2 (18:12):
It seems fairly unlikely because when you look at the
reaction from Israel, it's so vehemently opposed to these new
messages from around the world that it's hard to see
Benjamin Netanyahu and his government changing course simply because of
these global signals. I mean, really, the priority has got
to be to get food aid in. And Israel says
(18:34):
it is helping on that front. But the aid organizations,
I mean, the detail from them is incredible in terms
of the number of trucks that they've got available and
the amount of food they've got available and the amount
that they simply cannot get across the border and into
Gaza to the people who need it. So I think
that really is the priority, um, in terms of the
(18:54):
global discussions about a ceasefire or pressure on Israel. It's still,
you know, it's still moving. I think, um, with a
lot of discussions behind closed doors where we can't be
sure of any concrete outcome. Donald Trump is impatient with Netanyahu.
I think that's clear from his his messages. But whether
(19:16):
that leads to anything is always impossible to tell with
Donald Trump. Um, Keir Starmer is actually incredibly active. He
didn't just call, um, Anthony Albanese to talk about Gaza.
He talked to Christopher Luxon, put in a call there
to the New Zealand prime minister, who's also been talking
to the United Arab Emirates as well. So he's really
(19:38):
trying to move behind the scenes to really push this.
So maybe we get to something at the United Nations
in September, where there's a growing clamour around putting pressure
on on Israel. Um, but that's still a fair way
down the track. And I think it'd be, uh, I'd
want to be cautious about whether it's going to lead
(19:58):
to anything concrete.
S1 (20:00):
Um, And what about in Australia? Not for many years
we've thought about Palestinian recognition as something that comes at
the end of a peace process, when there is actually
a potential state, there to be governed. We're in a
perpetual war here. Hamas is still in control. Doesn't that
lend weight to the Prime Minister's view that recognising now
(20:21):
would simply be tokenism? And I mean, if you look
at what Keir Starmer is saying, he's using recognition almost
as a leverage tool. That was never how recognition was conceived.
So is the Prime Minister right to wait and what's
next from him, do you think?
S3 (20:36):
Yeah, I think he's right to want it to be
something more than tokenistic, more than symbolic, because the vast
majority of the world's countries have recognised Palestine. That doesn't
really mean anything on the ground as more countries have
recognised Palestine. The actual prospect of a Palestinian state has
(20:56):
been moving further away in the tangible, concrete facts on
the ground when you're talking about the huge growth of
settlements in the West Bank, for example, that many people
now say would basically make it impossible perhaps to have
a functioning state there, because there are over 500,000 Israelis
(21:16):
living in what is supposed to be a Palestinian state.
Others say, look, there are ways to deal with that,
with carve outs, and you move people around and we've
got to keep this idea alive. So the Prime Minister
is absolutely right that there are huge obstacles here, and
you want it to be useful. Uh, the flip side
to that is that the formulas and the templates of
(21:42):
this debate clearly haven't moved it in the right direction.
And there's this whole consensus around the world about the
way this peace process should work. But that's incredibly theoretical.
It's been going nowhere. We've had the October 7th attacks.
We've had the war. We've had the Israeli government moving
in a much more right wing direction. So I think
(22:06):
there's an element of desperation to some of this, of
saying what we're doing isn't working. We're going to try
and turn over the table, change up the playbook. Um,
hopefully recognition will do something useful. Uh, but I do
think it's from that place of, uh, well-meaning, you know,
but but rather desperate attempt to make something happen here.
(22:27):
And maybe it will nudge things in the right direction.
Some of the commitments from the Palestinian Authority sound good,
but it's obviously a huge problem that there's no buy
in from the Israeli side, not just the Netanyahu government,
but even the left wing parties in Israel say this
whole recognition push is so badly timed. You know, you're
(22:50):
going to need, uh, two partners for peace and a
two state solution who are going to have to make big,
difficult historic compromises on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side.
And that's something we don't have yet.
S1 (23:05):
Mm. Well, it's devastating that we're even talking about this
two years on, but, uh, it was great to talk
to two of the best informed journalists on this topic
in the country, although he's not in the country anymore. But, David,
it was great to have you. Thanks both for joining.
S2 (23:20):
Great to be back. Thanks.
S3 (23:22):
Thanks for that.
S1 (23:30):
Today's episode was produced by. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
and Tom McKendrick is head of Audio. To listen to
our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics
on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you like to listen
to your podcasts. To stay up to date with all politics,
news and exclusives, visit The Age and Sydney Morning Herald websites.
To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting the
page or subscribe. I'm Paul Cockle. Thank you for listening.
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