December 14, 2022 • 46 mins
One of Sacramento’s most notable detectives, Carol Daly, has investigated many high profile cases spanning two decades. Anne Marie revisits some of them and talks about her incredible career as a trailblazing woman in California law enforcement.
(Originally aired 14Dec22)
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S1 (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in this program are those
of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the views
or positions of any entities they represent. Including OLAS Media.
Carol Daly (00:16):
When I was growing up, you never thought I'd be in law .
Charlie's Angels hadn't even been invented yet. The TV program
and the only angels I knew about were the ones
that were in church. Investigations isn't just about conviction. It's
about exoneration. It's about finding the truth. But I'm so
(00:40):
thankful that I did not have to see those crime scenes.
Every one of the crime scenes that I came that
I worked. I still have visions of it in my head.
It's funny to look back and see how we were
viewed at that time. Never really looked at us as women.
One day he was quoted in the newspaper, along with
(01:02):
their progressive thinking. They're all good looking broads. So one
of the guys in the class was an artist. He
drew a cartoon of the instructor holding my bra. I didn't.
I didn't know what to do. So I just kind
of sat there dumbfounded. But it was interesting. It was
(01:24):
a time when things were really changing to look at
what victims really go through and to try to prosecute
cases for the horrendous things that they did to victims.
You do what you can do and you do what
you can for the people who are the families and
the survivors.
S2 (01:48):
OLAS media presents insie the crime files.
Anne Marie (01:57):
Welcome to Inside Crime Files with Anne Marie Schubert podcast.
I am Anne Marie Schubert. This podcast takes listeners inside
and behind the scenes of the investigation and prosecution of
some of the most horrific in Victoria, criminal cases in
California as well as beyond. The podcast also examines some
of the most unique cases that we've seen and some
(02:17):
of the unexpected endings. But today we're going to talk
with a detective that is perhaps one of the most
well known from the 1970s and eighties here in Sacramento
that handled many, many high profile cases. Her name is
Carol Daly. So welcome, Carol Daly.
Carol Daly (02:35):
Thank you very much. Good morning.
Anne Marie (02:37):
Good morning. So, Carol, let's just start off. You know,
I've known you for a long time. I probably met
you mostly through cold cases because we started looking at
some of the cold cases around 2001 or so. Yes.
And you handled many of the perhaps highest profile cases
and kind of getting a little bit of it. But,
(02:59):
you know, and you can correct me if I'm wrong
with some of the obvious, the most notorious was the
serial rapist slash Golden State killer, the UC Davis sweetheart murders,
which was John Riggins and Sabrina Gonzalez in 1980. Mm hmm.
The Richard Chase case, which we just did a podcast
on recently, and then others that you want to mention
(03:20):
that you would consider some of the ones that you
remembered to this day?
Carol Daly (03:24):
Oh, I think one in particular was Paul Mescal, in
case a man who killed his wife in the middle
of the night. He was represented by Michael Sands. His
brother in law was actually a deputy on the department.
And the outcome of that case through the investigation. And
(03:44):
I was really privileged that Michael Sands, let me be
very much a part of their investigation. Paul Mescal, When
was that? He was found innocent by means of insanity
only case that Michael Sands ever worked where he was
able to get that defense. And I think it's quite
rare to be able to get that. But for me,
(04:05):
it showed investigations isn't just about conviction, it's about exoneration
or it's about finding the truth. And so that one
very much played out that way. Another one was a
gentleman well, a gentleman. He was a parolee who was
released from prison. And within ten days he took a
(04:27):
$3,000 bribe, along with some cocaine, to kill a couple
of people. And so he that was also an interesting
case in that he had a partner with him by
the name of Howard Smith. That one was interesting in
that Smith, his partner, actually became a kidnap victim of
(04:50):
Bruce Wayne Lane, who forced him to go along on
his crime spree. And so there were a lot of
twists and turns. But eventually, all the charges against Smith
were dropped. But just working closely with Bruce Wendling and
working going to court and the judge saying that he
(05:11):
was one of the most cold hearted murderers that he
had ever met. And of course, we know that since
then there are a ton of cases that people can
be typed as the most cold blooded murder that anybody
has ever met. So those were a couple that really
stood out, cases that maybe went unsolved or ones that
(05:33):
you that never leave your mind and you think about.
And thankfully for DNA, a lot of those are being
solved and justice is being brought forward.
Anne Marie (05:45):
So part of the reason I wanted you on today, Carol,
is because you had this incredible career. And I think
what I find fascinating is that you were a trailblazer
as a female in law enforcement. So I wanted to
kind of just. You know, walk the listeners through like
what what your experience was like when you started those
(06:06):
kinds of things and some of the challenges you faced
and how you overcame those challenges, if that's okay.
Carol Daly (06:12):
First of all, a question was always ask me, why
did you go into law enforcement? Well, when I was
growing up, you never thought of policewomen. Charlie's Angels hadn't
even been invented yet. That's a TV program. And the
only angels I knew about were the ones that were
in church that we talked about. And so actually, my
(06:33):
lifetime goal as a youngster was to be a missionary nurse.
And then, as we know, we all make decisions in
our life that change our path. And moving to Sacramento, California,
working in civil service, I was in my second marriage
to my husband, now current husband, Chad Daly. And he
was the one that actually brought a flyer in showing
(06:56):
that they were hiring female deputies. It was a separate classification,
separate qualifications. We had to be two years older than
the men who were being hired at the time. We
had to be 23. And I looked at it and
I thought I had worked with law enforcement because I
had worked at the DA's office, domestic records division, and
(07:18):
I had worked for the I was a secretary to
the coroner. So I had met a lot of the
officers in law enforcement. And what really took me was
that it was double the salary. The salary was $698
a month. And it was double what I was making
as a secretary. And so I decided to go ahead
(07:39):
and take the exam. But when you talk about true,
let me.
Anne Marie (07:42):
Ask let me ask you a quick question. What year
are we talking about?
Carol Daly (07:45):
1968. 1968. Okay. Okay. So when you talk about Trailblazer,
people actually forget that in 1947, at the age of 33,
a lady by the name of Dorothy New Bell hired
on to the sheriff's department. She was a stenographer, a clerk,
a dispatcher and a matron in the jail. And in 1958,
(08:07):
Cher Cox swore her in as the first woman to
ever be in law enforcement in the sheriff's department. And
when I first met Dorothy, when I joined the department,
she was working full time mostly on missing person cases
and working out of the office. So it wasn't until
in September of 1963 that Alex Cowan and Joyce Pierce
(08:30):
were hired on as female deputies. And reading back through
some of the newspaper clippings, and because it was always
a big deal with women hiring on and looking back,
they were talking about for the first two years, the
men wouldn't even talk to them. And Alex was then
reassigned to detectives and asked or to laughing about when
(08:51):
she was assigned a case. If she had a male partner.
They had to take separate cars and they couldn't ride
in the same car together. And I remember early on
in my career we would get an assignment and two
of us we would get in our own cars and
we would meet. And Alex was talking one day about
going up to a door. The officer was at the
(09:12):
front door and she had pulled up and she was
walking up the sidewalk and the lady said, Who is
that person that's following you? Because even when even when
we were out, we were never thought of as deputies.
I remember going to events and that was always either
the sheriff's secretary or somebody who was there just to
take notes. And they just never really looked at us
(09:36):
as women. So it was in 1968 when Sheriff Mr.
Lee decided that he wanted more women on the department,
and there were 36 women that took the exam at
the time. Only eight of the women passed and he
was going to hire all of them. And one decided
she didn't want to go into law enforcement and the
(09:56):
other one was pregnant at the time. So they were
just six of us that were hired. And the newspaper
clipping headlines at the time is the law's long arm
may end in painted nails.
Anne Marie (10:12):
Oh, my goodness.
Carol Daly (10:13):
It was really funny. Mr. Lee commented that he hired
the six women, wanted women on the force. He had
550 men working in the department at the time, and
he hired women because of their progressive thinking. And and
that there followed through because a lot of men would
sign up and never, you know, follow through with the
test or anything. One of he was quoted in the
newspaper and saying in along with their progressive thinking, they're
(10:39):
all good looking broads and oh, my goodness. And I thought,
you know, it's so funny to look back and see
how we were viewed at that time. And he said
they should be ready for rough treatment and tough language
whenever they're working with the deputies. And now we had
to be 23. Two years old, we had to be
five foot four and we had to weigh at least £115.
(11:02):
So Mr. Lee said in the newspaper, if it if
any female is six foot plus wearing heels, she's too
much of a girl to be a deputy.
Anne Marie (11:12):
Well, my goodness sakes.
Carol Daly (11:13):
Well, it was that was just the very beginning. But really,
when you look at the groundbreaking and being a leader
for me, my mentor was Alex Magnus. She took me
under her wing. She had been in the department and
hired on in 63, so almost five years prior to
(11:35):
us coming on. And she just took me under her
wing and she mentored me. We worked together a lot
when I was first assigned to detectives. She was the
first one to go to Homicide. She was the first
one to go to patrol as a sergeant and was
really the driving force for women have equal rights within
(11:56):
the department. And at the time, let.
Anne Marie (11:59):
Me ask you let me ask a quick question. Sorry.
When you went to the academy, you know what? Was
there certain things physically different between men and women in
terms of like the guns or the uniforms, those kinds
of things? Well.
Carol Daly (12:14):
When we went to the academy, it was six weeks,
8 hours a day. And our classroom was at the
gardener's building in McKinley Park. And so we had no
uniforms at the time. So when the uniforms were finally
made for us, we were wearing the men's shirts that
(12:34):
were tailored down. And we had a seamstress who was
making skirts for us because we were wearing skirts, wearing
high heels, carrying guns in our purses. So we didn't
have gun belts. We had to qualify the same as
the men did, drawing a gun from our purse as
they were getting from their hips. So it was really
a completely different time for women. And it was it
(12:58):
was quite a while before women fought for their rights
to be able to work in patrols so they could
promote matrons who were handling the female inmates in the jail.
So we weren't even assigned to the jail initially.
Anne Marie (13:12):
What's a matron?
Carol Daly (13:14):
A matron is classification of a woman who works in
the jail to handle female prisoners. So they said, Hey,
we're doing the same thing the male deputies are doing
in the jail. So we want equal pay and equal rights.
And so they were all sent to the academy, and
that was the end of the matron classification. And they
(13:35):
became female Japanese. So a lot of changes early on
in the first few years, uniform equipment, trying to find
safety vest with darts in them that would fit a
woman's body, trying to get leather gear that was shaped
to fit a woman's body. And our first uniforms all
(13:58):
had to be handmade by a seamstress. So a lot
of changes were made. Probably one of the biggest supporters
that we ever had at the time was a guy
by the name of Randy Butler. They own Butler's uniforms
here in Sacramento, and he really worked with the women.
And he believed that they belonged in law enforcement and
he was a great champion of making us look good
(14:21):
while we were working.
Anne Marie (14:23):
Let me ask you this at some point, So you
joined the department 68 at some point. Did you go
to the FBI Academy?
Carol Daly (14:32):
Okay, so maybe I need to go back just a
little bit and tell you that when I hired on Sheriff, Mr.
Lay was sheriff. Okay. And then in 1971, there was
a big campaign push by Dwayne Lowe to become Cher.
And actually about 331 of the officers in that department
were supporting Duane Lowe for sheriff. They thought it was
(14:54):
time for a change. And I was told don't get
involved in the campaign. And I thought, well, everybody else
says I will, too. So there the primary in 1971,
there was a runoff, and neither one of them took
enough votes to take office. So they had to go
(15:14):
to the November runoff. So because Alex and myself were
one of the ten that were demoted. And so when Mr.
Lee did not.
Anne Marie (15:27):
Why were you demoted?
Carol Daly (15:29):
Because we supported Dwayne Lowe in the primary. And so, Mr. Lee,
after after the primary said, okay, we're going to demote you.
So he sent Alex and Joyce Pierce and myself to
the courthouse and put us in a holding cell. And
we sat there until January when Duane Lowe took off
as he won the final election, the final election in November.
(15:54):
And when he took office in January, he promoted us
back to detective commitment to our long assignments. So from
the time of the primary until January of 72, when
Dwight Look took office, we were in a holding cell.
We were actually locked in. We sat there.
Anne Marie (16:12):
During the day.
Carol Daly (16:13):
Yes, we did Christmas gifts, ornaments. We worked on Afghans.
We we sat there and just chatted and had coffee.
We had to call for a male deputy to come
in and lock the door if we needed to go
to the bathroom. And so we just we were held
in custody for that period of months until Dwayne Lowe
(16:34):
took office and put us back to the assignments that
we had before. So there were three females.
Anne Marie (16:41):
The three female deputies basically got punished because you supported
one candidate over the other.
Carol Daly (16:47):
Yeah. And so then Dwayne Lowe took office, and right
after Dwayne Lowe took office, his the secretary who had
been there for years, Alma was retiring and they didn't
have a civil service list to fill her position. And
so Dwayne said, just bring one of them female deputies.
And they used to be secretaries. And so I happened
(17:09):
to be close by. So I was picked to go
back and be Dwayne Lowe, the secretary, that shortly after
he took office. And so then I forget how long
it was, a few months. And then Candy Mackler was
hired to be his secretary. And so I went back
to being a detective. Well, then Candy went on maternity leave,
(17:33):
and he said, Just bring that female deputy back here.
I mean, it was always the female deputy, not Carol Daley,
not anybody else. And because I worked in the same
building and I was close by, so I went back
to being a sheriff's secretary again. And I didn't care.
I was making the same amount of money. Gave me
an opportunity to know a little bit more about how
the department ran, you know, how to filter correspondence and
(17:55):
and do things. And then civil service said, hey, they
got wind of it and said, you can't use a
female deputy as your secretary. You're working her out of class.
And so I went back to being a detective. But
I think just because of the flexibility, I really didn't care.
The money was the same. You know, I cut couldn't pay.
And I think the flexibility that I had, it just
(18:20):
opened a lot of doors for me.
Anne Marie (18:23):
So in 1970, I think he told me before 1975.
Carol Daly (18:27):
Mm hmm.
Anne Marie (18:27):
You went to the FBI academy, right?
Carol Daly (18:29):
Right. Yeah. Sheriff's little. Such innovative sheriff. He wanted to
be the first of everything. They'd only been two other
women in California at that time who had ever been
to the FBI Academy. Probably less than 12 in the
nation who had attended. And so he nominated me. And
I went to I was interviewed by the local FBI
(18:51):
agent in charge of the Sacramento office. I had to
go and be interviewed. And during the interview, he looked
at me and he said, you know, this is a
class of 250 and there'll be 248 men and only
two women in the class and you've been divorced. And
so how do you think you're going to handle being
away from your husband and around all those men for
(19:12):
the next three months? And wow, I thought, what a question,
because I meant we'd never be able to ask a
question like that today. But I just was caught off
guard and I said, Well, I don't see any problem. Anyway,
I did go and it was a three month school
in Quantico, Virginia, and a great experience. But going as
(19:37):
a deputy, a line officer was more or less unheard of.
And most everybody attending there were executive staff, chefs, captains, chiefs.
And so it was a it was a good experience.
Anne Marie (19:53):
Did you find while you were there or you kind
of mentioned some of the ways that women were treated,
but did you find any experiences at the FBI Academy
that you felt were looking back now like it would
never happen?
Carol Daly (20:09):
I think looking back, when you look at, you know,
sexual harassment in law enforcement or you look at bias
towards women, we were more progressive in California. But when
I went back to the FBI academy, there were states,
especially Southern states, that felt women had no part in
law enforcement. And I think even the FBI thought there
(20:30):
was no place for women in law enforcement. So I
had there was about a group of six guys that
kind of took me under their wing. And we were
a study group and everything. But in one of the classes,
the instructor was also a magician on the side. And
(20:50):
my name was last name started with D, And so
I was always in the front row. And I remember
the instructor got up in front and I'm the only
female in the class. There's two women in the class
of about 250. But we were never in the same
class except for our homeroom class. And the instructor got
up in front and he said he looked at me
(21:13):
and he said, you know, he said, I could remove
your bra in front of the class without you even
knowing it. And I got him and I thought, Oh,
my gosh, I was just I was shocked. So one
of the guys in the class was an artist.
Anne Marie (21:29):
So one of the things that I think you're most
respected for is the way you did treat victims of crime.
So when when the East area rapist slash Golden State
killer started kind of the reign of terror, Sacramento in
76 here, what was your role when I mean, you're
the on the homicide team. These are rapes. At the time,
(21:52):
we didn't. We did not you didn't have the link
to the majority murders. But what was your you know,
you're on the homicide team. But what's your assignment?
Carol Daly (22:01):
Well, my assignment on the homicide team. When I first
moved to Homicide, we were working on felony assault. So
we were working rape cases, We were working kidnap, We
were working assault with a deadly weapon. And we were
working at camp murder and homicides. And it was sometime
after I was in Homicide that they decided they needed
(22:22):
to put all of the sex crimes in one unit
because a rape case would come in and it would
be work by in one unit, or it was just
whoever was free would pick up. When I initially went
to detectives, I was working every every rape case that
came into the department. And then when I went to homicide,
of course, the homicide cases took priority. And so at
(22:45):
the time, I was I was back and forth. I
was pulled in to work a rape case, and then
I'd be on a homicide case. So it wasn't until
months later, and almost within a year, these cases were
going that a task force was formed and I was
(23:06):
pulled to work, nothing but rape cases. But then I
can tell you I was still pulled back and forth
to work some of the homicide scenes and just because
they needed personnel.
Anne Marie (23:19):
Right. So. Kind of sticking with the serial rapist. I mean,
what was your what was your job in the East?
A rapist killer for the listeners. But what was your
primary job?
Carol Daly (23:33):
My primary job was to be there to interview the victims,
to make sure that they got to the hospital for
the examination, to just look out for their well-being and
to take care of them, to interview them. And the
interviews were long, as you know, the East area rapist
(23:55):
was in the home for sometimes 2 to 3 hours.
And so there was a lot going on and there
was a lot of detail that needed to be taken
from the victims. So my responsibility was almost solely to
work with the victims, although I, I did do search warrants.
I did travel out of town on other cases that
had similar families to try to, you know, eliminate those.
(24:18):
So I was sort of back and forth, but my
primary focus was just to be with the victims.
Anne Marie (24:23):
Okay. So over time, obviously, the case went cold. You
eventually retired from the sheriff's office, but did you stay
and what kind of go through that? In a minute. But,
you know, did you stay connected? I mean, I know
there was a lot of documentaries on the case, but
did you stay connected with some of those victims over
the years?
Carol Daly (24:41):
I there were, yes. Yes, I did. And and sometimes
long periods of time would go by and then, you know,
we would make a connection. And then when all of
the documentary started, you know, probably two or three years
at least before D'Angelo was even identified, we were brought
back together to work on the documentaries. And actually it
(25:03):
just seemed like I was the contact person. Media would
call me and they say, Would you would you talk
to so-and-so and see if they'd be willing to talk?
So I kind of helped coordinate and and I think
that was very professional of the media, that they didn't
go out and reach out to a victim first, that
I was able to talk with them and see, are
you willing to do this? And some of them did not.
(25:26):
They wanted nothing to do with the media, and others
were very willing to step forward early on. I remember
that one of the victims who wanted to come forward
and talk about her experience, her voice was disguised. She
was shielded so nobody could see her face. She was
so fearful that by speaking out, the serial rapist because
(25:48):
he had threatened to come back and kill them at
some point. And then I look at all of a
sudden you have Jane Carson Sandler, who is going forward,
who writes her book about being a victim. And women
were slowly coming out and saying. It wasn't my fault.
(26:12):
I have nothing to hide. And I think the support
of the group, you know, and knowing that there were
others early on when these rapes occurred, I had gotten
several of the victims together and did kind of a
come and meet session. But I also had Dr. John Coles,
(26:34):
who was a psychologist with our department that did critical
incident debriefing for our officers. He agreed to meet with
them and talk with them and kind of help them
sort through. And so I found that that was very helpful.
We did one session, and then I know that Jane
had other sessions at her house, just individually, you know,
(26:54):
with some of the victims. I tried to do the
same thing for the male victims who were involved, and
none of them wanted anything to do with it. It
was it was very revealing time about how these crimes
affect not only the female, but the male, because there
were so many males who were there present during. And
(27:15):
so it was it was a very difficult time for
everybody in the community.
Anne Marie (27:23):
I know for sure you did one town hall because
I've seen the footage. But was there more, you know,
back taking the listeners back to the time frame, 76
to 78, 79. You mean the community was pretty much
up in arms about this person running around committing these crimes?
How many? I mean, what was that like? I mean,
as an investigator to have to try to. To calm
(27:46):
the community, I guess, in a way. Well, there was.
Carol Daly (27:48):
A lot of fear in the community and there were
a lot of phone calls coming in. You know, what
can I do to protect myself? And there was also
a lot of false rumors going around about what the
right person was doing. And so we felt the sheriff
felt the best way to do handle that would be
to have town hall meetings. And these meetings. Yes, we
had at least two. There were 600 to 900 people
(28:08):
that showed up. It was a large venue. And I
remember standing in front and I'm looking at all of
the command staff who were sitting over to the side,
and I thought, oh, my goodness, what am I doing
up here? Because I'm kind of like low person on
the totem pole. But actually, because I had the answers
to the questions, because I had done so many of
the interviews and and we also had a crime prevention
(28:33):
specialist who was there to tell them what they could
do to protect themselves. And so it was twofold to
let them know exactly what was going on, to listen
to their questions and then to tell them, you know,
give them advice on how they could protect themselves. Because
you remember what it was like in the community. Everybody
was buying a gun. Alarms were going off. We didn't
(28:56):
have street lighting. We didn't have video cameras and things
like we have now. People were sleeping in shifts around
the clock. They were barricading the doors so nobody could
get in. And we did a lot of safety presentations
during that time to all kinds of service groups, schools, hospitals,
(29:18):
any place where, you know, they would have group meetings.
We were there to give classes on how to protect
yourself and not become a victim. So a lot of
teaching went on as well as a lot of community service. Yes.
Anne Marie (29:33):
All right. So let's fast forward 40 years or so
to April of 2018 and just throw it out there.
What tell us about how you found out about the
arrest of the Golden State killer. Is there a rapist?
Carol Daly (29:47):
Oh, Sheriff Scott Jones called me. I was in the
car and he said, Carol, he said, I just want
you to know we just arrested the East area rapist.
And I said, Oh, you've got to be kidding. Well,
and it was just something that came out because I
wasn't expecting to hear anything like this. You know, I'm
(30:08):
I'm a retired life and taking care of grandkids and things.
And it was just such a shock. And his response
and he would not have called the police about that
because we had never had that. He came up in
the office after I had left and he said, no.
In fact, his name is Joseph D'Angelo and he's in
booking right now. And I said, Oh, you've got to
(30:30):
start calling the victims and let them know. Because I
remember in 2001 when the DNA was matched with the
rapes here in Sacramento and homicides and rapes in Southern
California and all over California, the victims were not notified.
And they were they were just taken by shock. So
(30:50):
these victims still don't know who the suspect is. And
now they know that there is a lot of murders
that have taken place and they're still feeling like they
could become a victim again. And so first thing he
said was start calling. And then I think I talked
to you and you said, hey, hold off. So I
did make a couple of phone calls and. And because
(31:10):
you were doing a search warrant at the time. And
so I think there was so much frenzy going on.
But my main thing is I got up early in
the morning and I started making phone calls and and
I thought, okay, these are going to be quick. I'm
going to call them. And I'm going to say and
I wasn't prepared for the reaction of the crying and
(31:31):
asking questions. And and I couldn't just brush them off
and that everybody was making phone calls. It wasn't just me.
I know your department, was it? Sheriff's department? Other agencies
were making phone calls to the victims to let them
know that announcement was coming out, that the area rapist
had been arrested.
Anne Marie (31:50):
Yeah, it was a pretty surreal moment, I think, for everybody.
Carol Daly (31:53):
Yes, it was.
Anne Marie (31:55):
So let me fast let me go. Let me fast forward.
So not not from the arrest, but just to go
back in time. You know, you do all these cases.
You're doing homicides. At some point you get promoted to
various you're a detective, but then you get promoted up
and you ultimately become the undersheriff, right? Yes. And Undersheriff,
(32:18):
just for the listeners in Sacramento, is the number two.
So you're the number two in the court? Yes. Appointed.
And who who was the one that appointed you to Undersheriff?
Carol Daly (32:28):
Sheriff. L.A. appointed me to Undersheriff.
Anne Marie (32:31):
Okay. So, you know, before you got appointed to undersheriff,
we talk a little bit about some of these high
profile cases that you had. You know, sitting here today.
What would you say? You know, as for me, as
a prosecutor, for whatever, 37 years, there's moments I'm never
(32:52):
going to forget. There's moments of trial moments. There's moments
of sitting with crime victims. There's moments in a courtroom.
For you as a detective, I mean, again, some of
these cases that you've handled. Richard Chait, it's hard to
even talk about what Richard Chase did. He's just he's
in a way, very much like Dahmer. Right. Dahmer's seem
(33:15):
to be the most gory case right now that people
are interested in. Then you have what I call the
UC Davis sweetheart murders, which is the kidnap. Murders of
John Riggins and Sabrina Gonzalez, which is December of 1980. Right. Yes.
You were one of the main investigators on that case. Right? Yes.
Carol Daly (33:39):
I processed the crime scene and sat through the autopsies.
So when we were working homicide, you process a crime scene,
but very much a part of your assignment is to
be at the autopsy to work with the pathologist, to
give him all of the information that you have and
to get all of the information from him firsthand before
(34:00):
his report is even done so that you can feed
it back clues and things that maybe would have helped
with the investigators who were in the field. So my
main assignment for that, other than a couple of follow ups,
was being at the crime scene and being at the autopsy.
When we had a homicide at that time, our whole
(34:21):
detail would go and everybody had everybody had a job
in collecting evidence, making notifications. And a lot of times
mine was doing the crime scenes because everything had to
be recorded and detailed out and Regan's and against all
of us. And I very much remember when you when
(34:44):
you're at a crime scene, it just never leaves your thoughts.
And you have these visions of seeing them thrown into
the gulch. You and I have visions of the taped
around their face and and how they died and the
horrific ness of it. And and yet, on the other hand,
(35:05):
you look at the innocence of their pictures and there
were students going to school. And it's hard to put
your mind around how somebody could commit such a horrific killing. So, yes,
when you go to those crime scenes and even though
I work Richard case, I was spared from having to
be in those crime scenes. And I think sometimes God
(35:27):
just protects it because I was already saturated with the
East area rapist and what he was doing to the
victims and not being able to identify who it was
and working and sorting through the trauma of those horrific cases.
And then I respond to Richard Chase at the time
that he was arrested, but I'm so thankful that I
(35:51):
did not have to see those crime scenes. Every one
of the crime scenes that I came that I worked,
I still have visions of it in my head. But
you do what you can do and you do what
you can for the people who are the families and
the survivors. And if it weren't for that and there's
a lot of law enforcement officers that, you know, couldn't
(36:13):
work child abuse and they couldn't work and rape cases
and homicides. But I always look at it not as
to actually what happened, but how can you help people
through this? And I think that was a saving grace.
Anne Marie (36:31):
Well, there's no there's no doubt about that, because it's,
you know, the human toll of crime, as I say,
oftentimes is sometimes incomprehensible. You know, sitting here today after
this phenomenal career, what, you know, are there certain moments
like for me, I have moments where something happened in
(36:54):
a courtroom or, you know, I remember very distinctly telling
the husband of a seven month pregnant lady who had
been kidnapped, raped and murdered. Yes. In 1979. There's moments
I it just. It's never going to leave your soul
in a way. So, I mean, for you, I mean,
(37:15):
are there certain ones that really stand out?
Carol Daly (37:19):
Well, yes. First of all, going way back to when
I first started investigating child molest cases, there was a
victim whose father, she was sent down to L.A. to
visit with her father and he was molesting her. Well,
when we found out about it. The molest occurred in
the L.A. jurisdiction, and so we couldn't really do anything
(37:41):
about it. But he just happened to be up here
in within our jurisdiction when all of the molest occurred.
And I remember talking to this young girl, I think
she was maybe seven or eight at the time, and
I was going to have to take her to the
hospital for the examination. And, of course, Emory, I mean,
(38:01):
I'm not really all that experienced yet. And so I'm
telling her, look, it's not going to hurt. They're going
to be they're going to be very gentle with you. Well,
of course, when she went in for the examination, it
was painful and she screamed and she cried and she
didn't want anything to do with me again. And so
I remember writing her a letter and telling her thank
(38:23):
you for opening my eyes and helping me to be
a better investigator. Because through what I told her and
what actually happened, and I just asked her forgiveness. And
actually we became friends. And years later, and I knew
(38:44):
about her wedding, I knew about her family story, and
she stayed in touch with me. She ended up marrying
a deputy sheriff. And well, it was just you have
to humble yourself because we don't always have the right answers,
but we learn from our mistakes in any career. And
I think one of the other ones that always stayed
(39:04):
with me that I think about, if I had to say,
when was I the most scared? Working at Homicide case,
there was a boyfriend girlfriend who had been dealing drugs,
and I guess they crossed up the people who were
selling or owed money or something and they were down
in the Delta, which, you know, is the southern part
of Sacramento County where the rivers, everything are. And they
(39:26):
took him out and shot them both in the back
of the head. So I'm called to the hospital down
in Walnut Grove, I think it was, or somewhere down south.
And it's a very dark and we had no street
lights or anything. And I left there and I'm driving
down there and it's a scary place to get lost.
And I get to the hospital. And Ray Biondi was
(39:50):
the lieutenant at the time, and he said, I want
you to stay there and protect, you know, protect the family,
because we don't know if they're going to come back,
if they know that one of them is alive, that
they'll come back and try to kill her. And so
I'm sitting there in the waiting room with the mother
(40:10):
and thinking so much about what families go through, because
it isn't just the victim, it's the whole family. Right.
And so they had both been shot in the back
of the head and he succumbed to his injuries. He
died and she was brought in to well, they were
both brought into air and they shot her in the
(40:32):
back of the head. But it was like a small
caliber gun. And it went through the back of her head,
hit her skull, skull, and it slid around her skull
and came out her cheek and she survived.
Anne Marie (40:44):
Wow.
Carol Daly (40:45):
I think what is the most interesting her name was Serena,
I believe, is that her whole life changed after that.
And I'm always thinking about the support from family, the
prayers that go out, especially mothers for kids. Right. But anyway,
her whole life turned around. She ended up doing missionary
(41:06):
work on the streets in Hawaii and reaching out to
kids that were involved in drugs. And so for me,
the fun part is always looking back to see how
people recovered and how they went on with their life.
And because you can get lost in all of the
trauma that you saw. But it's it's how people overcome.
And so I remember leaving the hospital and it was dark.
(41:31):
And I'm looking all around to see if junk dealers
are telling me and and and actually I was a
little bit nervous. And then I look down my my
gas tank is almost empty if I'm in.
Anne Marie (41:45):
My good.
Carol Daly (41:45):
Way back there. And so I finally found a little
gas station with a man that was still working and
was able to fill up my car. I was so
happy to get home that night, and that probably stuck
with me as being the most frightening case just because
probably because I was all by myself or used to
working with partners and not knowing what the situation was
(42:06):
going to come to.
Anne Marie (42:08):
Well, I just I've been in awe, Carol, of your
your career, because, you know, myself, perhaps as a woman.
Just to see someone that has I mean, just listen
to you. You have the most positive attitude about even
even in the most difficult of times when there was
discrimination or there was sexual harassment. To me, what I've
(42:30):
learned from you is you just looked at it like
as another opportunity to overcome things and look at it
in a very positive way and look where you ended up.
You you rise after starting as a secretary, really all
the way up to the number two in the department.
And you handled some of the most. Significant cases that
(42:51):
Sacramento County saw over the years. But as we kind
of wrap it up, what what would you say sitting
here today? What's what's your message, do you think, to
folks that whether it's women, whether it's people that are
interested in law enforcement, whether it's crime victims? What do
you think is the most compelling thing you would want
(43:12):
folks to know?
Carol Daly (43:15):
Well, I think for me, trying to figure out where
you want to go in your path of life. And
when I look back, I told you my initial desire
was to be a missionary nurse and go to Africa,
that the company, the country where I was going to go.
But I think having for me, it was my relationship
(43:36):
with God and just being where he wanted me to be.
And so that to me has been the most important
aspect of my career before anybody. Just what is it
you want to do? I've talked to so many people
who are unhappy and I say, Can you can you move?
Can you change assignments? You know? Is there something else
that you can do? And I talked to people who
(43:57):
just had a dead end career and weren't happy at all.
And then I, I have a very close friend who
was a clerical worker her whole life. And we were
together and she said she she was talking about my career.
(44:17):
And I said, Joanne, I would give anything to have
a department full of employees like you. You're positive you
show up to work every day, you do your job,
and without people like you, departments can't run. And so
it's how you see yourself. And so if you can
see yourself, I've always believed that I needed to support
(44:39):
the person that I work for. And and it just
it worked for me. But having joy in your heart,
within yourself, regardless of what you're doing, I think is great.
Anne Marie (44:52):
Yeah, no doubt about that. Well, I just want to,
you know, from someone that didn't have the pleasure of
working with you when you were in the the crux
of your career, I just want to thank you for
what you did back then. And then I fast forward
to all of these cases that you then got subpoenas on,
that you then came to court and testify and. Even
(45:15):
like with the with Joseph D'Angelo, your commitment to crime
victims long since you retired has been truly extraordinary. Carol.
So I just I just want to thank you from
the bottom of my heart for what you've done for
this community. And, you know, with that, I want to
say thank you for joining us today and sharing your story.
Carol Daly (45:34):
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Emory, I just
admire you and I love following where you're going in
your next step in your career. And I hope to
be a part of it because I hope you'll solve
some of those cases that still haunt me.
Anne Marie (45:49):
I know. Well, I'm sure there's going to be more
cases to be solved. But for the listeners out there,
I hope you keep listening to these podcasts. You can
find us on inside crime files dot com, and listen
to more about the true consequences of crime and the
innovation and inspiration that comes out of these cases. So
I just thank you all.
S2 (46:17):
Lost media presents inside the crime files. OLAS Media .
The views and opinions expressed in this program are those
of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the views
or positions of any entities they represent. Including OLAS Media.
Carol Daly (00:16):
When I was growing up, you never thought I'd be in law .
Charlie's Angels hadn't even been invented yet. The TV program
and the only angels I knew about were the ones
that were in church. Investigations isn't just about conviction. It's
about exoneration. It's about finding the truth. But I'm so
(00:40):
thankful that I did not have to see those crime scenes.
Every one of the crime scenes that I came that
I worked. I still have visions of it in my head.
It's funny to look back and see how we were
viewed at that time. Never really looked at us as women.
One day he was quoted in the newspaper, along with
(01:02):
their progressive thinking. They're all good looking broads. So one
of the guys in the class was an artist. He
drew a cartoon of the instructor holding my bra. I didn't.
I didn't know what to do. So I just kind
of sat there dumbfounded. But it was interesting. It was
(01:24):
a time when things were really changing to look at
what victims really go through and to try to prosecute
cases for the horrendous things that they did to victims.
You do what you can do and you do what
you can for the people who are the families and
the survivors.
S2 (01:48):
OLAS media presents insie the crime files.
Anne Marie (01:57):
Welcome to Inside Crime Files with Anne Marie Schubert podcast.
I am Anne Marie Schubert. This podcast takes listeners inside
and behind the scenes of the investigation and prosecution of
some of the most horrific in Victoria, criminal cases in
California as well as beyond. The podcast also examines some
of the most unique cases that we've seen and some
(02:17):
of the unexpected endings. But today we're going to talk
with a detective that is perhaps one of the most
well known from the 1970s and eighties here in Sacramento
that handled many, many high profile cases. Her name is
Carol Daly. So welcome, Carol Daly.
Carol Daly (02:35):
Thank you very much. Good morning.
Anne Marie (02:37):
Good morning. So, Carol, let's just start off. You know,
I've known you for a long time. I probably met
you mostly through cold cases because we started looking at
some of the cold cases around 2001 or so. Yes.
And you handled many of the perhaps highest profile cases
and kind of getting a little bit of it. But,
(02:59):
you know, and you can correct me if I'm wrong
with some of the obvious, the most notorious was the
serial rapist slash Golden State killer, the UC Davis sweetheart murders,
which was John Riggins and Sabrina Gonzalez in 1980. Mm hmm.
The Richard Chase case, which we just did a podcast
on recently, and then others that you want to mention
(03:20):
that you would consider some of the ones that you
remembered to this day?
Carol Daly (03:24):
Oh, I think one in particular was Paul Mescal, in
case a man who killed his wife in the middle
of the night. He was represented by Michael Sands. His
brother in law was actually a deputy on the department.
And the outcome of that case through the investigation. And
(03:44):
I was really privileged that Michael Sands, let me be
very much a part of their investigation. Paul Mescal, When
was that? He was found innocent by means of insanity
only case that Michael Sands ever worked where he was
able to get that defense. And I think it's quite
rare to be able to get that. But for me,
(04:05):
it showed investigations isn't just about conviction, it's about exoneration
or it's about finding the truth. And so that one
very much played out that way. Another one was a
gentleman well, a gentleman. He was a parolee who was
released from prison. And within ten days he took a
(04:27):
$3,000 bribe, along with some cocaine, to kill a couple
of people. And so he that was also an interesting
case in that he had a partner with him by
the name of Howard Smith. That one was interesting in
that Smith, his partner, actually became a kidnap victim of
(04:50):
Bruce Wayne Lane, who forced him to go along on
his crime spree. And so there were a lot of
twists and turns. But eventually, all the charges against Smith
were dropped. But just working closely with Bruce Wendling and
working going to court and the judge saying that he
(05:11):
was one of the most cold hearted murderers that he
had ever met. And of course, we know that since
then there are a ton of cases that people can
be typed as the most cold blooded murder that anybody
has ever met. So those were a couple that really
stood out, cases that maybe went unsolved or ones that
(05:33):
you that never leave your mind and you think about.
And thankfully for DNA, a lot of those are being
solved and justice is being brought forward.
Anne Marie (05:45):
So part of the reason I wanted you on today, Carol,
is because you had this incredible career. And I think
what I find fascinating is that you were a trailblazer
as a female in law enforcement. So I wanted to
kind of just. You know, walk the listeners through like
what what your experience was like when you started those
(06:06):
kinds of things and some of the challenges you faced
and how you overcame those challenges, if that's okay.
Carol Daly (06:12):
First of all, a question was always ask me, why
did you go into law enforcement? Well, when I was
growing up, you never thought of policewomen. Charlie's Angels hadn't
even been invented yet. That's a TV program. And the
only angels I knew about were the ones that were
in church that we talked about. And so actually, my
(06:33):
lifetime goal as a youngster was to be a missionary nurse.
And then, as we know, we all make decisions in
our life that change our path. And moving to Sacramento, California,
working in civil service, I was in my second marriage
to my husband, now current husband, Chad Daly. And he
was the one that actually brought a flyer in showing
(06:56):
that they were hiring female deputies. It was a separate classification,
separate qualifications. We had to be two years older than
the men who were being hired at the time. We
had to be 23. And I looked at it and
I thought I had worked with law enforcement because I
had worked at the DA's office, domestic records division, and
(07:18):
I had worked for the I was a secretary to
the coroner. So I had met a lot of the
officers in law enforcement. And what really took me was
that it was double the salary. The salary was $698
a month. And it was double what I was making
as a secretary. And so I decided to go ahead
(07:39):
and take the exam. But when you talk about true,
let me.
Anne Marie (07:42):
Ask let me ask you a quick question. What year
are we talking about?
Carol Daly (07:45):
1968. 1968. Okay. Okay. So when you talk about Trailblazer,
people actually forget that in 1947, at the age of 33,
a lady by the name of Dorothy New Bell hired
on to the sheriff's department. She was a stenographer, a clerk,
a dispatcher and a matron in the jail. And in 1958,
(08:07):
Cher Cox swore her in as the first woman to
ever be in law enforcement in the sheriff's department. And
when I first met Dorothy, when I joined the department,
she was working full time mostly on missing person cases
and working out of the office. So it wasn't until
in September of 1963 that Alex Cowan and Joyce Pierce
(08:30):
were hired on as female deputies. And reading back through
some of the newspaper clippings, and because it was always
a big deal with women hiring on and looking back,
they were talking about for the first two years, the
men wouldn't even talk to them. And Alex was then
reassigned to detectives and asked or to laughing about when
(08:51):
she was assigned a case. If she had a male partner.
They had to take separate cars and they couldn't ride
in the same car together. And I remember early on
in my career we would get an assignment and two
of us we would get in our own cars and
we would meet. And Alex was talking one day about
going up to a door. The officer was at the
(09:12):
front door and she had pulled up and she was
walking up the sidewalk and the lady said, Who is
that person that's following you? Because even when even when
we were out, we were never thought of as deputies.
I remember going to events and that was always either
the sheriff's secretary or somebody who was there just to
take notes. And they just never really looked at us
(09:36):
as women. So it was in 1968 when Sheriff Mr.
Lee decided that he wanted more women on the department,
and there were 36 women that took the exam at
the time. Only eight of the women passed and he
was going to hire all of them. And one decided
she didn't want to go into law enforcement and the
(09:56):
other one was pregnant at the time. So they were
just six of us that were hired. And the newspaper
clipping headlines at the time is the law's long arm
may end in painted nails.
Anne Marie (10:12):
Oh, my goodness.
Carol Daly (10:13):
It was really funny. Mr. Lee commented that he hired
the six women, wanted women on the force. He had
550 men working in the department at the time, and
he hired women because of their progressive thinking. And and
that there followed through because a lot of men would
sign up and never, you know, follow through with the
test or anything. One of he was quoted in the
newspaper and saying in along with their progressive thinking, they're
(10:39):
all good looking broads and oh, my goodness. And I thought,
you know, it's so funny to look back and see
how we were viewed at that time. And he said
they should be ready for rough treatment and tough language
whenever they're working with the deputies. And now we had
to be 23. Two years old, we had to be
five foot four and we had to weigh at least £115.
(11:02):
So Mr. Lee said in the newspaper, if it if
any female is six foot plus wearing heels, she's too
much of a girl to be a deputy.
Anne Marie (11:12):
Well, my goodness sakes.
Carol Daly (11:13):
Well, it was that was just the very beginning. But really,
when you look at the groundbreaking and being a leader
for me, my mentor was Alex Magnus. She took me
under her wing. She had been in the department and
hired on in 63, so almost five years prior to
(11:35):
us coming on. And she just took me under her
wing and she mentored me. We worked together a lot
when I was first assigned to detectives. She was the
first one to go to Homicide. She was the first
one to go to patrol as a sergeant and was
really the driving force for women have equal rights within
(11:56):
the department. And at the time, let.
Anne Marie (11:59):
Me ask you let me ask a quick question. Sorry.
When you went to the academy, you know what? Was
there certain things physically different between men and women in
terms of like the guns or the uniforms, those kinds
of things? Well.
Carol Daly (12:14):
When we went to the academy, it was six weeks,
8 hours a day. And our classroom was at the
gardener's building in McKinley Park. And so we had no
uniforms at the time. So when the uniforms were finally
made for us, we were wearing the men's shirts that
(12:34):
were tailored down. And we had a seamstress who was
making skirts for us because we were wearing skirts, wearing
high heels, carrying guns in our purses. So we didn't
have gun belts. We had to qualify the same as
the men did, drawing a gun from our purse as
they were getting from their hips. So it was really
a completely different time for women. And it was it
(12:58):
was quite a while before women fought for their rights
to be able to work in patrols so they could
promote matrons who were handling the female inmates in the jail.
So we weren't even assigned to the jail initially.
Anne Marie (13:12):
What's a matron?
Carol Daly (13:14):
A matron is classification of a woman who works in
the jail to handle female prisoners. So they said, Hey,
we're doing the same thing the male deputies are doing
in the jail. So we want equal pay and equal rights.
And so they were all sent to the academy, and
that was the end of the matron classification. And they
(13:35):
became female Japanese. So a lot of changes early on
in the first few years, uniform equipment, trying to find
safety vest with darts in them that would fit a
woman's body, trying to get leather gear that was shaped
to fit a woman's body. And our first uniforms all
(13:58):
had to be handmade by a seamstress. So a lot
of changes were made. Probably one of the biggest supporters
that we ever had at the time was a guy
by the name of Randy Butler. They own Butler's uniforms
here in Sacramento, and he really worked with the women.
And he believed that they belonged in law enforcement and
he was a great champion of making us look good
(14:21):
while we were working.
Anne Marie (14:23):
Let me ask you this at some point, So you
joined the department 68 at some point. Did you go
to the FBI Academy?
Carol Daly (14:32):
Okay, so maybe I need to go back just a
little bit and tell you that when I hired on Sheriff, Mr.
Lay was sheriff. Okay. And then in 1971, there was
a big campaign push by Dwayne Lowe to become Cher.
And actually about 331 of the officers in that department
were supporting Duane Lowe for sheriff. They thought it was
(14:54):
time for a change. And I was told don't get
involved in the campaign. And I thought, well, everybody else
says I will, too. So there the primary in 1971,
there was a runoff, and neither one of them took
enough votes to take office. So they had to go
(15:14):
to the November runoff. So because Alex and myself were
one of the ten that were demoted. And so when Mr.
Lee did not.
Anne Marie (15:27):
Why were you demoted?
Carol Daly (15:29):
Because we supported Dwayne Lowe in the primary. And so, Mr. Lee,
after after the primary said, okay, we're going to demote you.
So he sent Alex and Joyce Pierce and myself to
the courthouse and put us in a holding cell. And
we sat there until January when Duane Lowe took off
as he won the final election, the final election in November.
(15:54):
And when he took office in January, he promoted us
back to detective commitment to our long assignments. So from
the time of the primary until January of 72, when
Dwight Look took office, we were in a holding cell.
We were actually locked in. We sat there.
Anne Marie (16:12):
During the day.
Carol Daly (16:13):
Yes, we did Christmas gifts, ornaments. We worked on Afghans.
We we sat there and just chatted and had coffee.
We had to call for a male deputy to come
in and lock the door if we needed to go
to the bathroom. And so we just we were held
in custody for that period of months until Dwayne Lowe
(16:34):
took office and put us back to the assignments that
we had before. So there were three females.
Anne Marie (16:41):
The three female deputies basically got punished because you supported
one candidate over the other.
Carol Daly (16:47):
Yeah. And so then Dwayne Lowe took office, and right
after Dwayne Lowe took office, his the secretary who had
been there for years, Alma was retiring and they didn't
have a civil service list to fill her position. And
so Dwayne said, just bring one of them female deputies.
And they used to be secretaries. And so I happened
(17:09):
to be close by. So I was picked to go
back and be Dwayne Lowe, the secretary, that shortly after
he took office. And so then I forget how long
it was, a few months. And then Candy Mackler was
hired to be his secretary. And so I went back
to being a detective. Well, then Candy went on maternity leave,
(17:33):
and he said, Just bring that female deputy back here.
I mean, it was always the female deputy, not Carol Daley,
not anybody else. And because I worked in the same
building and I was close by, so I went back
to being a sheriff's secretary again. And I didn't care.
I was making the same amount of money. Gave me
an opportunity to know a little bit more about how
the department ran, you know, how to filter correspondence and
(17:55):
and do things. And then civil service said, hey, they
got wind of it and said, you can't use a
female deputy as your secretary. You're working her out of class.
And so I went back to being a detective. But
I think just because of the flexibility, I really didn't care.
The money was the same. You know, I cut couldn't pay.
And I think the flexibility that I had, it just
(18:20):
opened a lot of doors for me.
Anne Marie (18:23):
So in 1970, I think he told me before 1975.
Carol Daly (18:27):
Mm hmm.
Anne Marie (18:27):
You went to the FBI academy, right?
Carol Daly (18:29):
Right. Yeah. Sheriff's little. Such innovative sheriff. He wanted to
be the first of everything. They'd only been two other
women in California at that time who had ever been
to the FBI Academy. Probably less than 12 in the
nation who had attended. And so he nominated me. And
I went to I was interviewed by the local FBI
(18:51):
agent in charge of the Sacramento office. I had to
go and be interviewed. And during the interview, he looked
at me and he said, you know, this is a
class of 250 and there'll be 248 men and only
two women in the class and you've been divorced. And
so how do you think you're going to handle being
away from your husband and around all those men for
(19:12):
the next three months? And wow, I thought, what a question,
because I meant we'd never be able to ask a
question like that today. But I just was caught off
guard and I said, Well, I don't see any problem. Anyway,
I did go and it was a three month school
in Quantico, Virginia, and a great experience. But going as
(19:37):
a deputy, a line officer was more or less unheard of.
And most everybody attending there were executive staff, chefs, captains, chiefs.
And so it was a it was a good experience.
Anne Marie (19:53):
Did you find while you were there or you kind
of mentioned some of the ways that women were treated,
but did you find any experiences at the FBI Academy
that you felt were looking back now like it would
never happen?
Carol Daly (20:09):
I think looking back, when you look at, you know,
sexual harassment in law enforcement or you look at bias
towards women, we were more progressive in California. But when
I went back to the FBI academy, there were states,
especially Southern states, that felt women had no part in
law enforcement. And I think even the FBI thought there
(20:30):
was no place for women in law enforcement. So I
had there was about a group of six guys that
kind of took me under their wing. And we were
a study group and everything. But in one of the classes,
the instructor was also a magician on the side. And
(20:50):
my name was last name started with D, And so
I was always in the front row. And I remember
the instructor got up in front and I'm the only
female in the class. There's two women in the class
of about 250. But we were never in the same
class except for our homeroom class. And the instructor got
up in front and he said he looked at me
(21:13):
and he said, you know, he said, I could remove
your bra in front of the class without you even
knowing it. And I got him and I thought, Oh,
my gosh, I was just I was shocked. So one
of the guys in the class was an artist.
Anne Marie (21:29):
So one of the things that I think you're most
respected for is the way you did treat victims of crime.
So when when the East area rapist slash Golden State
killer started kind of the reign of terror, Sacramento in
76 here, what was your role when I mean, you're
the on the homicide team. These are rapes. At the time,
(21:52):
we didn't. We did not you didn't have the link
to the majority murders. But what was your you know,
you're on the homicide team. But what's your assignment?
Carol Daly (22:01):
Well, my assignment on the homicide team. When I first
moved to Homicide, we were working on felony assault. So
we were working rape cases, We were working kidnap, We
were working assault with a deadly weapon. And we were
working at camp murder and homicides. And it was sometime
after I was in Homicide that they decided they needed
(22:22):
to put all of the sex crimes in one unit
because a rape case would come in and it would
be work by in one unit, or it was just
whoever was free would pick up. When I initially went
to detectives, I was working every every rape case that
came into the department. And then when I went to homicide,
of course, the homicide cases took priority. And so at
(22:45):
the time, I was I was back and forth. I
was pulled in to work a rape case, and then
I'd be on a homicide case. So it wasn't until
months later, and almost within a year, these cases were
going that a task force was formed and I was
(23:06):
pulled to work, nothing but rape cases. But then I
can tell you I was still pulled back and forth
to work some of the homicide scenes and just because
they needed personnel.
Anne Marie (23:19):
Right. So. Kind of sticking with the serial rapist. I mean,
what was your what was your job in the East?
A rapist killer for the listeners. But what was your
primary job?
Carol Daly (23:33):
My primary job was to be there to interview the victims,
to make sure that they got to the hospital for
the examination, to just look out for their well-being and
to take care of them, to interview them. And the
interviews were long, as you know, the East area rapist
(23:55):
was in the home for sometimes 2 to 3 hours.
And so there was a lot going on and there
was a lot of detail that needed to be taken
from the victims. So my responsibility was almost solely to
work with the victims, although I, I did do search warrants.
I did travel out of town on other cases that
had similar families to try to, you know, eliminate those.
(24:18):
So I was sort of back and forth, but my
primary focus was just to be with the victims.
Anne Marie (24:23):
Okay. So over time, obviously, the case went cold. You
eventually retired from the sheriff's office, but did you stay
and what kind of go through that? In a minute. But,
you know, did you stay connected? I mean, I know
there was a lot of documentaries on the case, but
did you stay connected with some of those victims over
the years?
Carol Daly (24:41):
I there were, yes. Yes, I did. And and sometimes
long periods of time would go by and then, you know,
we would make a connection. And then when all of
the documentary started, you know, probably two or three years
at least before D'Angelo was even identified, we were brought
back together to work on the documentaries. And actually it
(25:03):
just seemed like I was the contact person. Media would
call me and they say, Would you would you talk
to so-and-so and see if they'd be willing to talk?
So I kind of helped coordinate and and I think
that was very professional of the media, that they didn't
go out and reach out to a victim first, that
I was able to talk with them and see, are
you willing to do this? And some of them did not.
(25:26):
They wanted nothing to do with the media, and others
were very willing to step forward early on. I remember
that one of the victims who wanted to come forward
and talk about her experience, her voice was disguised. She
was shielded so nobody could see her face. She was
so fearful that by speaking out, the serial rapist because
(25:48):
he had threatened to come back and kill them at
some point. And then I look at all of a
sudden you have Jane Carson Sandler, who is going forward,
who writes her book about being a victim. And women
were slowly coming out and saying. It wasn't my fault.
(26:12):
I have nothing to hide. And I think the support
of the group, you know, and knowing that there were
others early on when these rapes occurred, I had gotten
several of the victims together and did kind of a
come and meet session. But I also had Dr. John Coles,
(26:34):
who was a psychologist with our department that did critical
incident debriefing for our officers. He agreed to meet with
them and talk with them and kind of help them
sort through. And so I found that that was very helpful.
We did one session, and then I know that Jane
had other sessions at her house, just individually, you know,
(26:54):
with some of the victims. I tried to do the
same thing for the male victims who were involved, and
none of them wanted anything to do with it. It
was it was very revealing time about how these crimes
affect not only the female, but the male, because there
were so many males who were there present during. And
(27:15):
so it was it was a very difficult time for
everybody in the community.
Anne Marie (27:23):
I know for sure you did one town hall because
I've seen the footage. But was there more, you know,
back taking the listeners back to the time frame, 76
to 78, 79. You mean the community was pretty much
up in arms about this person running around committing these crimes?
How many? I mean, what was that like? I mean,
as an investigator to have to try to. To calm
(27:46):
the community, I guess, in a way. Well, there was.
Carol Daly (27:48):
A lot of fear in the community and there were
a lot of phone calls coming in. You know, what
can I do to protect myself? And there was also
a lot of false rumors going around about what the
right person was doing. And so we felt the sheriff
felt the best way to do handle that would be
to have town hall meetings. And these meetings. Yes, we
had at least two. There were 600 to 900 people
(28:08):
that showed up. It was a large venue. And I
remember standing in front and I'm looking at all of
the command staff who were sitting over to the side,
and I thought, oh, my goodness, what am I doing
up here? Because I'm kind of like low person on
the totem pole. But actually, because I had the answers
to the questions, because I had done so many of
the interviews and and we also had a crime prevention
(28:33):
specialist who was there to tell them what they could
do to protect themselves. And so it was twofold to
let them know exactly what was going on, to listen
to their questions and then to tell them, you know,
give them advice on how they could protect themselves. Because
you remember what it was like in the community. Everybody
was buying a gun. Alarms were going off. We didn't
(28:56):
have street lighting. We didn't have video cameras and things
like we have now. People were sleeping in shifts around
the clock. They were barricading the doors so nobody could
get in. And we did a lot of safety presentations
during that time to all kinds of service groups, schools, hospitals,
(29:18):
any place where, you know, they would have group meetings.
We were there to give classes on how to protect
yourself and not become a victim. So a lot of
teaching went on as well as a lot of community service. Yes.
Anne Marie (29:33):
All right. So let's fast forward 40 years or so
to April of 2018 and just throw it out there.
What tell us about how you found out about the
arrest of the Golden State killer. Is there a rapist?
Carol Daly (29:47):
Oh, Sheriff Scott Jones called me. I was in the
car and he said, Carol, he said, I just want
you to know we just arrested the East area rapist.
And I said, Oh, you've got to be kidding. Well,
and it was just something that came out because I
wasn't expecting to hear anything like this. You know, I'm
(30:08):
I'm a retired life and taking care of grandkids and things.
And it was just such a shock. And his response
and he would not have called the police about that
because we had never had that. He came up in
the office after I had left and he said, no.
In fact, his name is Joseph D'Angelo and he's in
booking right now. And I said, Oh, you've got to
(30:30):
start calling the victims and let them know. Because I
remember in 2001 when the DNA was matched with the
rapes here in Sacramento and homicides and rapes in Southern
California and all over California, the victims were not notified.
And they were they were just taken by shock. So
(30:50):
these victims still don't know who the suspect is. And
now they know that there is a lot of murders
that have taken place and they're still feeling like they
could become a victim again. And so first thing he
said was start calling. And then I think I talked
to you and you said, hey, hold off. So I
did make a couple of phone calls and. And because
(31:10):
you were doing a search warrant at the time. And
so I think there was so much frenzy going on.
But my main thing is I got up early in
the morning and I started making phone calls and and
I thought, okay, these are going to be quick. I'm
going to call them. And I'm going to say and
I wasn't prepared for the reaction of the crying and
(31:31):
asking questions. And and I couldn't just brush them off
and that everybody was making phone calls. It wasn't just me.
I know your department, was it? Sheriff's department? Other agencies
were making phone calls to the victims to let them
know that announcement was coming out, that the area rapist
had been arrested.
Anne Marie (31:50):
Yeah, it was a pretty surreal moment, I think, for everybody.
Carol Daly (31:53):
Yes, it was.
Anne Marie (31:55):
So let me fast let me go. Let me fast forward.
So not not from the arrest, but just to go
back in time. You know, you do all these cases.
You're doing homicides. At some point you get promoted to
various you're a detective, but then you get promoted up
and you ultimately become the undersheriff, right? Yes. And Undersheriff,
(32:18):
just for the listeners in Sacramento, is the number two.
So you're the number two in the court? Yes. Appointed.
And who who was the one that appointed you to Undersheriff?
Carol Daly (32:28):
Sheriff. L.A. appointed me to Undersheriff.
Anne Marie (32:31):
Okay. So, you know, before you got appointed to undersheriff,
we talk a little bit about some of these high
profile cases that you had. You know, sitting here today.
What would you say? You know, as for me, as
a prosecutor, for whatever, 37 years, there's moments I'm never
(32:52):
going to forget. There's moments of trial moments. There's moments
of sitting with crime victims. There's moments in a courtroom.
For you as a detective, I mean, again, some of
these cases that you've handled. Richard Chait, it's hard to
even talk about what Richard Chase did. He's just he's
in a way, very much like Dahmer. Right. Dahmer's seem
(33:15):
to be the most gory case right now that people
are interested in. Then you have what I call the
UC Davis sweetheart murders, which is the kidnap. Murders of
John Riggins and Sabrina Gonzalez, which is December of 1980. Right. Yes.
You were one of the main investigators on that case. Right? Yes.
Carol Daly (33:39):
I processed the crime scene and sat through the autopsies.
So when we were working homicide, you process a crime scene,
but very much a part of your assignment is to
be at the autopsy to work with the pathologist, to
give him all of the information that you have and
to get all of the information from him firsthand before
(34:00):
his report is even done so that you can feed
it back clues and things that maybe would have helped
with the investigators who were in the field. So my
main assignment for that, other than a couple of follow ups,
was being at the crime scene and being at the autopsy.
When we had a homicide at that time, our whole
(34:21):
detail would go and everybody had everybody had a job
in collecting evidence, making notifications. And a lot of times
mine was doing the crime scenes because everything had to
be recorded and detailed out and Regan's and against all
of us. And I very much remember when you when
(34:44):
you're at a crime scene, it just never leaves your thoughts.
And you have these visions of seeing them thrown into
the gulch. You and I have visions of the taped
around their face and and how they died and the
horrific ness of it. And and yet, on the other hand,
(35:05):
you look at the innocence of their pictures and there
were students going to school. And it's hard to put
your mind around how somebody could commit such a horrific killing. So, yes,
when you go to those crime scenes and even though
I work Richard case, I was spared from having to
be in those crime scenes. And I think sometimes God
(35:27):
just protects it because I was already saturated with the
East area rapist and what he was doing to the
victims and not being able to identify who it was
and working and sorting through the trauma of those horrific cases.
And then I respond to Richard Chase at the time
that he was arrested, but I'm so thankful that I
(35:51):
did not have to see those crime scenes. Every one
of the crime scenes that I came that I worked,
I still have visions of it in my head. But
you do what you can do and you do what
you can for the people who are the families and
the survivors. And if it weren't for that and there's
a lot of law enforcement officers that, you know, couldn't
(36:13):
work child abuse and they couldn't work and rape cases
and homicides. But I always look at it not as
to actually what happened, but how can you help people
through this? And I think that was a saving grace.
Anne Marie (36:31):
Well, there's no there's no doubt about that, because it's,
you know, the human toll of crime, as I say,
oftentimes is sometimes incomprehensible. You know, sitting here today after
this phenomenal career, what, you know, are there certain moments
like for me, I have moments where something happened in
(36:54):
a courtroom or, you know, I remember very distinctly telling
the husband of a seven month pregnant lady who had
been kidnapped, raped and murdered. Yes. In 1979. There's moments
I it just. It's never going to leave your soul
in a way. So, I mean, for you, I mean,
(37:15):
are there certain ones that really stand out?
Carol Daly (37:19):
Well, yes. First of all, going way back to when
I first started investigating child molest cases, there was a
victim whose father, she was sent down to L.A. to
visit with her father and he was molesting her. Well,
when we found out about it. The molest occurred in
the L.A. jurisdiction, and so we couldn't really do anything
(37:41):
about it. But he just happened to be up here
in within our jurisdiction when all of the molest occurred.
And I remember talking to this young girl, I think
she was maybe seven or eight at the time, and
I was going to have to take her to the
hospital for the examination. And, of course, Emory, I mean,
(38:01):
I'm not really all that experienced yet. And so I'm
telling her, look, it's not going to hurt. They're going
to be they're going to be very gentle with you. Well,
of course, when she went in for the examination, it
was painful and she screamed and she cried and she
didn't want anything to do with me again. And so
I remember writing her a letter and telling her thank
(38:23):
you for opening my eyes and helping me to be
a better investigator. Because through what I told her and
what actually happened, and I just asked her forgiveness. And
actually we became friends. And years later, and I knew
(38:44):
about her wedding, I knew about her family story, and
she stayed in touch with me. She ended up marrying
a deputy sheriff. And well, it was just you have
to humble yourself because we don't always have the right answers,
but we learn from our mistakes in any career. And
I think one of the other ones that always stayed
(39:04):
with me that I think about, if I had to say,
when was I the most scared? Working at Homicide case,
there was a boyfriend girlfriend who had been dealing drugs,
and I guess they crossed up the people who were
selling or owed money or something and they were down
in the Delta, which, you know, is the southern part
of Sacramento County where the rivers, everything are. And they
(39:26):
took him out and shot them both in the back
of the head. So I'm called to the hospital down
in Walnut Grove, I think it was, or somewhere down south.
And it's a very dark and we had no street
lights or anything. And I left there and I'm driving
down there and it's a scary place to get lost.
And I get to the hospital. And Ray Biondi was
(39:50):
the lieutenant at the time, and he said, I want
you to stay there and protect, you know, protect the family,
because we don't know if they're going to come back,
if they know that one of them is alive, that
they'll come back and try to kill her. And so
I'm sitting there in the waiting room with the mother
(40:10):
and thinking so much about what families go through, because
it isn't just the victim, it's the whole family. Right.
And so they had both been shot in the back
of the head and he succumbed to his injuries. He
died and she was brought in to well, they were
both brought into air and they shot her in the
(40:32):
back of the head. But it was like a small
caliber gun. And it went through the back of her head,
hit her skull, skull, and it slid around her skull
and came out her cheek and she survived.
Anne Marie (40:44):
Wow.
Carol Daly (40:45):
I think what is the most interesting her name was Serena,
I believe, is that her whole life changed after that.
And I'm always thinking about the support from family, the
prayers that go out, especially mothers for kids. Right. But anyway,
her whole life turned around. She ended up doing missionary
(41:06):
work on the streets in Hawaii and reaching out to
kids that were involved in drugs. And so for me,
the fun part is always looking back to see how
people recovered and how they went on with their life.
And because you can get lost in all of the
trauma that you saw. But it's it's how people overcome.
And so I remember leaving the hospital and it was dark.
(41:31):
And I'm looking all around to see if junk dealers
are telling me and and and actually I was a
little bit nervous. And then I look down my my
gas tank is almost empty if I'm in.
Anne Marie (41:45):
My good.
Carol Daly (41:45):
Way back there. And so I finally found a little
gas station with a man that was still working and
was able to fill up my car. I was so
happy to get home that night, and that probably stuck
with me as being the most frightening case just because
probably because I was all by myself or used to
working with partners and not knowing what the situation was
(42:06):
going to come to.
Anne Marie (42:08):
Well, I just I've been in awe, Carol, of your
your career, because, you know, myself, perhaps as a woman.
Just to see someone that has I mean, just listen
to you. You have the most positive attitude about even
even in the most difficult of times when there was
discrimination or there was sexual harassment. To me, what I've
(42:30):
learned from you is you just looked at it like
as another opportunity to overcome things and look at it
in a very positive way and look where you ended up.
You you rise after starting as a secretary, really all
the way up to the number two in the department.
And you handled some of the most. Significant cases that
(42:51):
Sacramento County saw over the years. But as we kind
of wrap it up, what what would you say sitting
here today? What's what's your message, do you think, to
folks that whether it's women, whether it's people that are
interested in law enforcement, whether it's crime victims? What do
you think is the most compelling thing you would want
(43:12):
folks to know?
Carol Daly (43:15):
Well, I think for me, trying to figure out where
you want to go in your path of life. And
when I look back, I told you my initial desire
was to be a missionary nurse and go to Africa,
that the company, the country where I was going to go.
But I think having for me, it was my relationship
(43:36):
with God and just being where he wanted me to be.
And so that to me has been the most important
aspect of my career before anybody. Just what is it
you want to do? I've talked to so many people
who are unhappy and I say, Can you can you move?
Can you change assignments? You know? Is there something else
that you can do? And I talked to people who
(43:57):
just had a dead end career and weren't happy at all.
And then I, I have a very close friend who
was a clerical worker her whole life. And we were
together and she said she she was talking about my career.
(44:17):
And I said, Joanne, I would give anything to have
a department full of employees like you. You're positive you
show up to work every day, you do your job,
and without people like you, departments can't run. And so
it's how you see yourself. And so if you can
see yourself, I've always believed that I needed to support
(44:39):
the person that I work for. And and it just
it worked for me. But having joy in your heart,
within yourself, regardless of what you're doing, I think is great.
Anne Marie (44:52):
Yeah, no doubt about that. Well, I just want to,
you know, from someone that didn't have the pleasure of
working with you when you were in the the crux
of your career, I just want to thank you for
what you did back then. And then I fast forward
to all of these cases that you then got subpoenas on,
that you then came to court and testify and. Even
(45:15):
like with the with Joseph D'Angelo, your commitment to crime
victims long since you retired has been truly extraordinary. Carol.
So I just I just want to thank you from
the bottom of my heart for what you've done for
this community. And, you know, with that, I want to
say thank you for joining us today and sharing your story.
Carol Daly (45:34):
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Emory, I just
admire you and I love following where you're going in
your next step in your career. And I hope to
be a part of it because I hope you'll solve
some of those cases that still haunt me.
Anne Marie (45:49):
I know. Well, I'm sure there's going to be more
cases to be solved. But for the listeners out there,
I hope you keep listening to these podcasts. You can
find us on inside crime files dot com, and listen
to more about the true consequences of crime and the
innovation and inspiration that comes out of these cases. So
I just thank you all.
S2 (46:17):
Lost media presents inside the crime files. OLAS Media .
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