May 14, 2025 • 28 mins
🎧 Behind the Scenes – Global Access Awareness Day Special
Presented by Chris Thompson | Vision Australia Radio
In recognition of Global Access Awareness Day (GAAD), this special episode of Behind the Scenes features an insightful interview with Professor Kim Marriott, Head of the Assistive Technology and Society (MATS) department at Monash University.
With over 100 members, MATS is the largest centre of its kind globally, dedicated to empowering people with disabilities to lead self-directed lives through innovative technology.
Tune in as Kim discusses the ground-breaking work being done at MATS, the role of inclusive design, and the future of assistive technology in Australia and beyond.
🎙️ A Vision Australia Radio feature to celebrate accessibility, inclusion, and the power of technology to transform lives.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:19):
You're listening to Vision Australia Radio and I'm Chris Thompson,
presenter of Behind the Scenes. May 16th is Global Access
Awareness Day and recently I visited Kim Marriott at Mat's
Monash Assistive Technology and Society Centre at Monash University. Mat
supports people with disabilities to live self-directed lives through innovative
(00:40):
developments in technology. With over 100 members. Mats is the
largest centre of its kind in the world. In recognition
of Global Access Awareness Day, Vision Australia Radio would like
to share this interview with you. I hope you enjoy
meeting Kim Marriott as much as I did. Let's say
(01:04):
welcome back to the show. Kim Marriott.
S2 (01:05):
Thank you very much, Chris.
S1 (01:07):
Now we are in a rather lovely, light and airy
space here.
S2 (01:13):
Yes. Yeah. Look, we're incredibly lucky to have this space.
Monash Assistive Tech and Society Centre spans all the different
faculties in Monash, but where we are at the moment
is in the faculty of it and to support the centre,
the faculty of it has created a makerspace. So we've
got 3D printers, laser cutters, electronic components, you name it,
(01:38):
we've got it here. And it's just a wonderful place
for us to to create new technologies and to trial
different technologies. It's open space. PhD students and research fellows
and other researchers are all sitting here developing new technologies.
S1 (01:54):
Of course, there are computers around here, but predominantly I
feel like I'm in a kind of cross between a
craft room and a toy shop.
S2 (02:04):
Absolutely.
S1 (02:05):
I want to touch everything. But let's talk about what
you do here. Um, because you're really plugged into the
university at large. But the community as well.
S2 (02:15):
That's correct. So, um, Monash Assistive Tech and Society Center
is new. It was only launched in December, and it brings, um,
about 100 researchers and educators from across Monash together. So
from all different disciplines. So we've got educators. We've got it.
People like myself, we've got linguists, we've got, um, occupational therapists,
(02:41):
we've got industrial designers, engineers. And what we're doing is
working with communities so different disability communities to develop new
technologies that can help, but also more broadly, just to
understand the role of technology in the lives of people
with disability. What are the barriers to its use? What
(03:02):
are the problems with its use? But also how can
it actually remove many of the current issues that face
people with disability? And we do that very closely by
working with community organizations.
S1 (03:14):
And so is the goal in working with such a
broad range of disciplines at the university and community interests
as well. Are you looking forward to the future, where
all those people at the beginning of what they do
in their work are taking into account the broad range
(03:39):
of disability access, rather than coming up with clever ways
of solving the fact that we didn't think about those
things at the beginning.
S2 (03:48):
Yeah. Look, that's a really good question, Chris. So exactly,
one of the things that we want to do is
to ensure that everybody who graduates from Monash, all of
our students have an understanding of disability and the need
for inclusive design, and how they can work with people
with disability and co-design solutions that are designed from the
very beginning to be disability friendly, rather than retrofitting something
(04:14):
which is much harder when it's too late.
S1 (04:16):
Yeah. And in that work with the students in particular,
do you see those little moments of revelation where you know,
that kind of wow, this had just never occurred to me?
S2 (04:29):
Happens. Um, I teach professional practice, and, um, that's a
first year unit which has 600 students in one semester
and 500 in another semester. And I show them what
a screen reader is and how that works. And you
can just see the sort of the eyes opening up
(04:54):
and understanding what it would be like to be blind
and to have that way Why of accessing websites and
programs and things like that. And you can see them
just really going, ah, now I get it.
S1 (05:06):
Um, so let's talk about what happens in this space. Um,
you seem to have an awful lot of projects on
the go at the same time. Um, which I guess
is a good thing. Uh, I guess what that means
is the project just keeps finding different points of access
(05:27):
for this kind of work.
S2 (05:29):
Look there. It's a really exciting time, uh, to be
involved in assistive technology research. It's because, uh, particularly in it,
there have just been so many changes. So, uh, robots, uh,
3D printing, um. Head mounted, uh, virtual reality and mixed
(05:53):
reality displays and of course, AI. And I think these
technologies are set to transform the lives of everybody, but
particularly people with disabilities.
S1 (06:03):
Is there a risk that you get overwhelmed with how
much you could do? Do you have to be disciplined
in Italy where your focus lies?
S2 (06:13):
Absolutely. And that's why it's so important that we have
community partners who go. Actually, that might be cool technology,
but it isn't solving a problem that we care about.
What we really need to do is to find something
that will help us find our keys are in the
house because we don't remember where they are. So you've
got to be always focused on real problems for real people.
S1 (06:37):
Now, I guess it would be easy to get an
impression that in that kind of work in a university,
it's sort of research and development. It's testing, but maybe
it just all happens in this room. But that's not
the case, is it? You get out and about and
put things into practice in the field.
S2 (06:58):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, um, one of the most important
things that we, uh, we believe in is that we
have to be making real world impact. So we work
closely with partners. Um, one of the projects that we
worked on was to develop, uh, 3D printing to help, uh,
in education and for orientation and mobility with blind and
(07:20):
low vision, um, people. And so because of that project,
Australia is now leading the world in the provision of
3D printed educational materials, uh, across Australia. And it's really
important that the research that we're doing is out there
in the community and is actually really making a difference.
S1 (07:40):
Let's go and look at a few things rather than
just talking about it. In theory, um, we usually think
that Elvis has left the building, but in fact, Elvis
has come into this building.
S2 (07:49):
That's right. So we're just walking over to a display
that we, um, developed, um, for the Bendigo Art Gallery.
So the Bendigo Art Gallery is wonderful. And one of
the things that they want to do is to make
sure that the art gallery is accessible to everybody in
their community, and that includes people who are blind and
(08:10):
low vision. So they came to us and asked, could
we develop, um, tours for people who are blind and
low vision to visit the gallery and, uh, experience some
of the exhibits? So, uh, we worked with them on
the Elvis exhibition, the Graceland exhibition. And one of the
things that we developed by Erica, who is a low
(08:32):
vision artist, uh, is a diorama of Elvis's life. So
starting with him being born in a little shack which
is on the left, um, and this diorama has in
the middle, um, a model of the Hollywood Hills with
the big Hollywood sign. And on the right, there's a
model of Graceland, and there's a train track following from
(08:53):
the left to the right. So from the shack past
the Hollywood sign and then to the Graceland mansion, which
has cars. And Priscilla is also there as well.
S1 (09:03):
So that's about making an existing exhibition more accessible than
it would ordinarily have been. Yeah. Um, now in Melbourne,
we've just recently had the Flower and Garden show, and
I think I noticed around here, maybe not in the
(09:25):
most recent one, but at some point you've had some
involvement in the Melbourne International Flower and Garden Show?
S2 (09:31):
Yes.
S1 (09:31):
So are you looking at here, Kim?
S2 (09:33):
A few years ago, um, Guide Dogs Victoria approached us
and asked us to create a map, a 3D printed
map of the Melbourne International Flower and Garden Show. So
Guide Dogs Victoria have a stand at the the show,
and they wanted to provide that for blind and low
vision visitors to the show, but also as a way
of showcasing the work and accessibility issues to the broader community.
(09:58):
So Leona Holloway developed a model, so she used 3D
printing to print a map or, sorry, a model of
the exhibition buildings, but also really carefully sat down with co-designed, uh, icons,
3D printed icons of the sort of facilities that are
(10:19):
at the fantastic show.
S1 (10:22):
The kind of like a version of a little monopoly
game icons, aren't they? Yeah.
S2 (10:28):
That's right. So you've got a very realistic little toilet
that represents where the toilets are. You've got, uh, chopsticks
in a bowl representing where you can find food.
S1 (10:38):
You've got a tap for water.
S2 (10:40):
Yeah. And there's a fountain to to show you where
the fountain is. Ah. And this is something, um, that
blind and low vision people who've experienced the map find
really fun. You know, it's so much easier to understand
what something is if you can touch it and feel it.
S1 (10:57):
We talked, I think, when you were on the show
in December. Um, not as elaborate as this, but Vision
Australia has, um, an orientation map at the entrance.
S2 (11:09):
One of our early.
S1 (11:09):
Maps as well. That's right. Yeah. Um. All right, where
do we go now? What will we look at? Oh,
let's go shopping.
S2 (11:18):
Okay. Now, what we're looking at is, uh, a 3D
model that was created by Ruth Nagata. And what she
was interested in doing was exploring how you could create
3D models of multi-level environments. So when we talk to
our blind and low vision friends and partners, um, they
(11:42):
said really what they wanted to have maps or models
of were of shopping centres and also of train stations,
particularly the Southern Cross was, you know, it's very hard
to understand because it's on different levels and Collins Street
moves between those levels.
S1 (11:59):
So it effectively has two different ground levels. Yes.
S2 (12:02):
That's right. And you know, it's confusing for everybody. Um,
but so what she did was to construct, um, multi-level
models where you could, um, you can move the floors
sideways on a sort of rail mechanism so you can explore,
get a sense if all of the different floors are
lined up of the overall shape and the way that
(12:23):
the different floors connect to one another, but then you
can move the floors to one side and explore it
more carefully with your fingers. And again, there are 3D
icons to, um, show different parts of the shopping centre.
S1 (12:35):
One of the things I'm noticing is that, you know,
these little 3D printed icons, they're consistent. So the bowl
with the chopsticks in it appears regularly. The toilet appears regularly.
So does that mean that as each new project happens,
you're given a challenge to go? Now develop an icon
(12:57):
to add to the collection.
S2 (12:58):
That's right. And so we now have a methodology for
developing these icons. So it's first of all you try
a number of designs, but then you test them with
uh people who are sighted um, but can't see the icons.
And that's to check that they're actually, um, understandable or distinguishable.
(13:22):
But then, of course, we also test them with people
who have been blind from birth, because it can be
as a sighted person that you think something is understandable,
but if you've never seen.
S1 (13:34):
It, you've got to have known about it at some.
S2 (13:36):
Point. Exactly. That's right. So it's important to test with
those two sort of extreme audiences.
S1 (13:44):
And does that mean that over time this will develop
as a sort of universal icon language? Is that what
you hope will happen?
S2 (13:54):
So it's interesting. Um, map map makers have always, uh,
over the centuries, gone. Let's come up with a universal
set of icons for maps. So this is for visual maps.
But in reality, every country is different. Um, every context
is slightly different. So rather, I think what the way
(14:15):
I view it is that you have a bank of
different designs that you can use, but, um, you know,
it's not that you should use this, but rather it's
just a resource that can help you to develop the
icons and things that are appropriate for your particular situation.
S1 (14:32):
And is this the sort of thing, you know, I'm
thinking kind of longer term. Yeah. Um, because these are
being made here. Yeah. With your 3D printer and laser
cutting and all that kind of thing. Um, but longer term,
I can imagine that other people could sort of access
that technology and make their own.
S2 (14:51):
Absolutely. Well, everything that we develop here is, um, open
source and the designs are available through repositories. Um, 3D
printing repositories like Thingiverse. And we hope that other people
are using them. And in fact, some of the stuff
that we developed, we know it is being used all
over the world. What we would hope is, yeah, that
(15:13):
there are other providers who come along and go, ah, actually,
there's a big market. Let's try and or, let's create
maps for every public space in Victoria or every public
space in Australia.
S1 (15:25):
Where should we go next? What will we look at?
You were showing me some devices that worked with computers before.
S2 (15:32):
Yes. So, okay, we're coming across and looking at a
collection of refreshable tactile displays. So refreshable tactile displays, um,
Are designed to show tactile graphics and multiline braille, and
they consist of something, say, 60 by 40 grid of
(15:54):
little pins that can move up and down. And refreshable.
Tactile displays have been around for quite a number of years,
but they've always been very, very expensive. But in the
last three years or over the last five years, there's
been a big push to develop new refreshable tactile displays
(16:14):
that are more affordable. And so we have, uh, the
dot pad. We also have a monarch and a graffiti,
which are examples of this.
S1 (16:25):
So there are three different brands.
S2 (16:27):
Yes. Yeah. That's right. With with slightly different characteristics. And
they cost somewhere between 10 and $30,000.
S1 (16:35):
Is that.
S2 (16:35):
All? Yeah, which sounds like a lot, but, um, it
is making them more affordable. and also as more people
use them, you.
S1 (16:43):
Would.
S2 (16:43):
Expect the price will come down. Yeah. Um, and we're
really excited about them because we're working with education departments. Um,
Spivey and Roundtable to look at how you can use
these devices to support students who are blind or have
low vision studying mathematics in upper secondary school. So what
(17:05):
we know is that those students are dropping out of
mathematics as soon as they can, or many of them are.
And that's because of issues in accessing graphical information, issues
in communicating with sighted students and teachers because they're working
in Braille, and the which is not understood, necessarily understood
(17:29):
by those people, and also having access to accessible calculators.
And we think the refreshable tactile displays provide an opportunity
to really overcome these barriers. Obviously, they can provide graphics.
They can also act as an accessible, um, calculator. And um, monarch,
for example, will also show a dual view of what's
(17:51):
being shown on the the monarch as in a visual way.
So it will translate, you know, the Braille into, um,
text or into equations.
S1 (18:01):
And so that means then does it, um, if I
was a vision impaired person in a classroom, in a
maths classroom, and I'm sitting at a desk beside someone
who is not a vision impaired person, and we both
have our computers and but mine is connected to one
(18:23):
of these devices, then we're working on the same material.
That's correct. And the teacher is preparing one class for everyone.
If I'm the vision impaired person, I'm not off in
the corner working on something separate that Has been made
just for me. I'm part of the class.
S2 (18:42):
That's right.
S1 (18:43):
So that's not just a that's actually not just about
the education experience. It's the social experience as well.
S2 (18:50):
Totally, Chris. It completely changed for too long. Students who
are blind or have low vision are just sitting in
a corner all by themselves, marginalized. Um, if they're lucky,
they have an aide who's going to help them, but
they're feeling really excluded from, uh, all of the activities
that are going on in the classroom. And we need
to change that. And these new technologies are one of
(19:12):
the ways that we can do it. 3D printing is
another way. So we've also been looking at how you
can bring 3D prints into the classroom. And you know,
a 3D printed object is something that everybody wants to touch. So,
you know, you're no longer the blind kid with the
really nerdy equipment and special needs. You're the cool kid
(19:35):
who's got this latest model of Tyrannosaurus rex or something
like that. What we saw when we were using 3D
models in the classroom and feedback from teachers, they were going, ah,
this is great for our our blind student. But this
is also going to be great for our student who
has autism or it's going to be great for us. Well,
(19:57):
the entire classroom. So they become tools for inclusion rather
than exclusion.
S1 (20:02):
Yeah. Which again means there's a social aspect to that,
isn't it, that that you understand the way I work
and I understand the way you work rather than what?
I don't get what you're doing.
S2 (20:14):
That's exactly.
S1 (20:15):
Right. Fantastic. Tell me about CVI.
S2 (20:19):
Okay, so, um, we have another project. Uh, and we're
looking at how you can use, um, head mounted, uh,
mixed reality displays like the Vision Pro, Apple Vision Pro
to help people with CVI cerebral vision impairment understand their environment.
S1 (20:39):
Now, cerebral vision impairment is different from what we commonly
understand as blindness or low vision.
S2 (20:46):
That's correct. So commonly we think of blindness and low
vision occurring because of some sort of impairment associated with
the eye. Um, but in fact, the eye is only
a very small part of our visual processing system. And
much of what we think of as vision, uh, is
occurs because of different areas in the brain. So cerebral
(21:09):
vision impairment is a condition where, um, because of brain,
various different sorts of brain impairment, um, you can no longer, um,
see properly or.
S1 (21:22):
And that would come about from a whack to the
head in some way.
S2 (21:26):
Yeah. It can come about from a variety of different reasons. So, um,
it can be acquired later in life or it can also,
increasingly it's, uh, happens um, because premature babies may be
born with CVI and it's been only recently diagnosed. So um,
(21:48):
but it's now recognized that it's probably the most common
cause of vision impairment in young children. And while it
hasn't been recognized in adults, it's also believed to be widely, um, uh,
true in adults as well.
S1 (22:09):
Um, and so how will that work? You were telling
me before about the kind of the cluttered visual idea.
S2 (22:17):
So, so one of the issues with CVI, uh, is
that you can see things and in a very uncluttered environment,
you'll be able to find your, um, cup on the table,
but in an environment where you've got a lot of
things on the table.
S1 (22:38):
Because I haven't done the dishes. Yeah, exactly.
S2 (22:40):
Um, your brain will sort of go into overload. They'll
just be too much visual stimulation, and you'll find it
very difficult to to find your cup. So what we're
doing is exploring how you can use the Vision Pro
to actually change what you're seeing. So what it will
do is you say, ah, where's my cup? And your
cup will glow. And the other things will fade out
(23:03):
so that you can actually find where it is.
S1 (23:05):
Wow.
S2 (23:06):
Um, another thing that it will do is if you're
reading a menu, it will. You can run your finger
down the side of the menu, and it will overlay
the menu with clearer text. And if you like, also
audio reading out whatever the menu item is. And you
can control that with your finger.
S1 (23:26):
Fantastic. And did you say to me before, um, the
person you're working with on the CVI project is someone
who lives with CVI.
S2 (23:36):
Yes, yes, she has lived experience of CVI and is
a researcher in.
S1 (23:40):
And is that common in a lot of what you
do here?
S2 (23:44):
It's absolutely.
S1 (23:45):
It kind of has to be, doesn't it?
S2 (23:46):
It has to be. Nothing for us without us. Yeah. It's, uh,
co-design is a really core part of what we do.
Our centre manager is blind. She provides input into what
we're doing.
S1 (23:59):
And she has a pretty good Barbie on her desk
as well.
S2 (24:03):
That's right. So our centre manager, Ramona Mandy, is blind.
And so she has a Barbie doll with a seeing
eye dog on her desk.
S1 (24:11):
Fantastic. So, have we touched on everything we should? I mean,
there's lots of other things here that you might want
to talk about, but.
S2 (24:21):
I was just going to quickly say, um, I is
something that's really going to change things. And so we're
doing quite a lot of work with conversational agents as well.
And how you can make 3D models, um, talk to
you and feel alive. You can pick them up and
they'll vibrate and, um, yeah, it's just like having a
conversation with not a person, but with the model itself.
(24:43):
And I think, you know, this is something that's also
going to change the future.
S1 (24:47):
You get very excited coming to work every day. Absolutely, Chris.
S2 (24:50):
We are so lucky. We're so lucky to have this
wonderful environment. And, um, and as I said before, we're
living in a really exciting time where these technologies, I
think can make a real are going to make a
significant difference.
S1 (25:05):
It must be almost the perfect time, isn't it? Because
is it a race between what you can come up
with as an idea to pursue and what technology is
doing in terms of the capabilities it offers?
S2 (25:17):
Absolutely. You know, you go, oh, we could do this.
Oh no, somebody's already done this.
S1 (25:21):
So, you.
S2 (25:22):
Know, it's just so much out there, which is fantastic.
S1 (25:25):
So what's the do you have like a long term
plan for what will happen here? Um.
S2 (25:33):
Long term plan? Um, well, we only started last year, but, uh,
we want to get more staff. We would like we're
working with, uh, other organisations across Australia, other academics across Australia.
So what we well, what we want to do is
for Australia to become a leader in assistive technology. And
(25:53):
we're looking at how we can work with organisations like remarkable, uh, who, um,
generate a start up entrepreneurial support for disability tech. And
so what we want is for this centre to become
a hub for the development of different sorts of assistive technologies.
Some of those will be commercially sold, but also a
(26:14):
lot of them will be, you know, where appropriate will
be provided as open source.
S1 (26:23):
It's fantastic. Um, I'm really glad I was able to
come out. And thank you so much for showing me
around and explaining what all these things are. It's pretty
remarkable work. It just seems like it's really fun at
the same time. Oh yeah.
S2 (26:42):
It is. And look, if you're interested in maths, please
have a look at our website. And we have a
Friends of Maths program for individuals who want to learn
more about maths and get our newsletter and be invited
to seminars and things like that. And we also have
partners of maths. So for organisations who would like to
(27:03):
work with maths and there's on our website, there are
contact details and how you how you can join those programmes.
S1 (27:10):
Do we all wear the same t shirt?
S2 (27:13):
Well we should get a t shirt. Yes. We don't
have one yet, but we. Yeah. Good idea.
S1 (27:18):
Chris. So, um, that website, how do we find it?
S2 (27:21):
So it's, uh, just w.w.w. Monash.
S1 (27:29):
Fantastic. And then just follow the links to the friends of.
S2 (27:33):
Thank you so much for coming, Chris. Uh, it's been
a pleasure.
S1 (27:42):
If you'd like to listen to this interview again or
share it with a friend or family member, it's available
on our podcast feed. Just search for Vision Australia Radio.
Interview highlights wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again to
Kim Marriott for showing me around the maths department at
Monash Uni. You can hear me Chris Thompson on Behind
the Scenes every Monday night on Vision Australia Radio or
(28:03):
in your own time, or at VA radio, Digital or
online at VA Radio.com. Thanks again, Kim Marriott, and thanks
to Mark Ridout for producing.
You're listening to Vision Australia Radio and I'm Chris Thompson,
presenter of Behind the Scenes. May 16th is Global Access
Awareness Day and recently I visited Kim Marriott at Mat's
Monash Assistive Technology and Society Centre at Monash University. Mat
supports people with disabilities to live self-directed lives through innovative
(00:40):
developments in technology. With over 100 members. Mats is the
largest centre of its kind in the world. In recognition
of Global Access Awareness Day, Vision Australia Radio would like
to share this interview with you. I hope you enjoy
meeting Kim Marriott as much as I did. Let's say
(01:04):
welcome back to the show. Kim Marriott.
S2 (01:05):
Thank you very much, Chris.
S1 (01:07):
Now we are in a rather lovely, light and airy
space here.
S2 (01:13):
Yes. Yeah. Look, we're incredibly lucky to have this space.
Monash Assistive Tech and Society Centre spans all the different
faculties in Monash, but where we are at the moment
is in the faculty of it and to support the centre,
the faculty of it has created a makerspace. So we've
got 3D printers, laser cutters, electronic components, you name it,
(01:38):
we've got it here. And it's just a wonderful place
for us to to create new technologies and to trial
different technologies. It's open space. PhD students and research fellows
and other researchers are all sitting here developing new technologies.
S1 (01:54):
Of course, there are computers around here, but predominantly I
feel like I'm in a kind of cross between a
craft room and a toy shop.
S2 (02:04):
Absolutely.
S1 (02:05):
I want to touch everything. But let's talk about what
you do here. Um, because you're really plugged into the
university at large. But the community as well.
S2 (02:15):
That's correct. So, um, Monash Assistive Tech and Society Center
is new. It was only launched in December, and it brings, um,
about 100 researchers and educators from across Monash together. So
from all different disciplines. So we've got educators. We've got it.
People like myself, we've got linguists, we've got, um, occupational therapists,
(02:41):
we've got industrial designers, engineers. And what we're doing is
working with communities so different disability communities to develop new
technologies that can help, but also more broadly, just to
understand the role of technology in the lives of people
with disability. What are the barriers to its use? What
(03:02):
are the problems with its use? But also how can
it actually remove many of the current issues that face
people with disability? And we do that very closely by
working with community organizations.
S1 (03:14):
And so is the goal in working with such a
broad range of disciplines at the university and community interests
as well. Are you looking forward to the future, where
all those people at the beginning of what they do
in their work are taking into account the broad range
(03:39):
of disability access, rather than coming up with clever ways
of solving the fact that we didn't think about those
things at the beginning.
S2 (03:48):
Yeah. Look, that's a really good question, Chris. So exactly,
one of the things that we want to do is
to ensure that everybody who graduates from Monash, all of
our students have an understanding of disability and the need
for inclusive design, and how they can work with people
with disability and co-design solutions that are designed from the
very beginning to be disability friendly, rather than retrofitting something
(04:14):
which is much harder when it's too late.
S1 (04:16):
Yeah. And in that work with the students in particular,
do you see those little moments of revelation where you know,
that kind of wow, this had just never occurred to me?
S2 (04:29):
Happens. Um, I teach professional practice, and, um, that's a
first year unit which has 600 students in one semester
and 500 in another semester. And I show them what
a screen reader is and how that works. And you
can just see the sort of the eyes opening up
(04:54):
and understanding what it would be like to be blind
and to have that way Why of accessing websites and
programs and things like that. And you can see them
just really going, ah, now I get it.
S1 (05:06):
Um, so let's talk about what happens in this space. Um,
you seem to have an awful lot of projects on
the go at the same time. Um, which I guess
is a good thing. Uh, I guess what that means
is the project just keeps finding different points of access
(05:27):
for this kind of work.
S2 (05:29):
Look there. It's a really exciting time, uh, to be
involved in assistive technology research. It's because, uh, particularly in it,
there have just been so many changes. So, uh, robots, uh,
3D printing, um. Head mounted, uh, virtual reality and mixed
(05:53):
reality displays and of course, AI. And I think these
technologies are set to transform the lives of everybody, but
particularly people with disabilities.
S1 (06:03):
Is there a risk that you get overwhelmed with how
much you could do? Do you have to be disciplined
in Italy where your focus lies?
S2 (06:13):
Absolutely. And that's why it's so important that we have
community partners who go. Actually, that might be cool technology,
but it isn't solving a problem that we care about.
What we really need to do is to find something
that will help us find our keys are in the
house because we don't remember where they are. So you've
got to be always focused on real problems for real people.
S1 (06:37):
Now, I guess it would be easy to get an
impression that in that kind of work in a university,
it's sort of research and development. It's testing, but maybe
it just all happens in this room. But that's not
the case, is it? You get out and about and
put things into practice in the field.
S2 (06:58):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, um, one of the most important
things that we, uh, we believe in is that we
have to be making real world impact. So we work
closely with partners. Um, one of the projects that we
worked on was to develop, uh, 3D printing to help, uh,
in education and for orientation and mobility with blind and
(07:20):
low vision, um, people. And so because of that project,
Australia is now leading the world in the provision of
3D printed educational materials, uh, across Australia. And it's really
important that the research that we're doing is out there
in the community and is actually really making a difference.
S1 (07:40):
Let's go and look at a few things rather than
just talking about it. In theory, um, we usually think
that Elvis has left the building, but in fact, Elvis
has come into this building.
S2 (07:49):
That's right. So we're just walking over to a display
that we, um, developed, um, for the Bendigo Art Gallery.
So the Bendigo Art Gallery is wonderful. And one of
the things that they want to do is to make
sure that the art gallery is accessible to everybody in
their community, and that includes people who are blind and
(08:10):
low vision. So they came to us and asked, could
we develop, um, tours for people who are blind and
low vision to visit the gallery and, uh, experience some
of the exhibits? So, uh, we worked with them on
the Elvis exhibition, the Graceland exhibition. And one of the
things that we developed by Erica, who is a low
(08:32):
vision artist, uh, is a diorama of Elvis's life. So
starting with him being born in a little shack which
is on the left, um, and this diorama has in
the middle, um, a model of the Hollywood Hills with
the big Hollywood sign. And on the right, there's a
model of Graceland, and there's a train track following from
(08:53):
the left to the right. So from the shack past
the Hollywood sign and then to the Graceland mansion, which
has cars. And Priscilla is also there as well.
S1 (09:03):
So that's about making an existing exhibition more accessible than
it would ordinarily have been. Yeah. Um, now in Melbourne,
we've just recently had the Flower and Garden show, and
I think I noticed around here, maybe not in the
(09:25):
most recent one, but at some point you've had some
involvement in the Melbourne International Flower and Garden Show?
S2 (09:31):
Yes.
S1 (09:31):
So are you looking at here, Kim?
S2 (09:33):
A few years ago, um, Guide Dogs Victoria approached us
and asked us to create a map, a 3D printed
map of the Melbourne International Flower and Garden Show. So
Guide Dogs Victoria have a stand at the the show,
and they wanted to provide that for blind and low
vision visitors to the show, but also as a way
of showcasing the work and accessibility issues to the broader community.
(09:58):
So Leona Holloway developed a model, so she used 3D
printing to print a map or, sorry, a model of
the exhibition buildings, but also really carefully sat down with co-designed, uh, icons,
3D printed icons of the sort of facilities that are
(10:19):
at the fantastic show.
S1 (10:22):
The kind of like a version of a little monopoly
game icons, aren't they? Yeah.
S2 (10:28):
That's right. So you've got a very realistic little toilet
that represents where the toilets are. You've got, uh, chopsticks
in a bowl representing where you can find food.
S1 (10:38):
You've got a tap for water.
S2 (10:40):
Yeah. And there's a fountain to to show you where
the fountain is. Ah. And this is something, um, that
blind and low vision people who've experienced the map find
really fun. You know, it's so much easier to understand
what something is if you can touch it and feel it.
S1 (10:57):
We talked, I think, when you were on the show
in December. Um, not as elaborate as this, but Vision
Australia has, um, an orientation map at the entrance.
S2 (11:09):
One of our early.
S1 (11:09):
Maps as well. That's right. Yeah. Um. All right, where
do we go now? What will we look at? Oh,
let's go shopping.
S2 (11:18):
Okay. Now, what we're looking at is, uh, a 3D
model that was created by Ruth Nagata. And what she
was interested in doing was exploring how you could create
3D models of multi-level environments. So when we talk to
our blind and low vision friends and partners, um, they
(11:42):
said really what they wanted to have maps or models
of were of shopping centres and also of train stations,
particularly the Southern Cross was, you know, it's very hard
to understand because it's on different levels and Collins Street
moves between those levels.
S1 (11:59):
So it effectively has two different ground levels. Yes.
S2 (12:02):
That's right. And you know, it's confusing for everybody. Um,
but so what she did was to construct, um, multi-level
models where you could, um, you can move the floors
sideways on a sort of rail mechanism so you can explore,
get a sense if all of the different floors are
lined up of the overall shape and the way that
(12:23):
the different floors connect to one another, but then you
can move the floors to one side and explore it
more carefully with your fingers. And again, there are 3D
icons to, um, show different parts of the shopping centre.
S1 (12:35):
One of the things I'm noticing is that, you know,
these little 3D printed icons, they're consistent. So the bowl
with the chopsticks in it appears regularly. The toilet appears regularly.
So does that mean that as each new project happens,
you're given a challenge to go? Now develop an icon
(12:57):
to add to the collection.
S2 (12:58):
That's right. And so we now have a methodology for
developing these icons. So it's first of all you try
a number of designs, but then you test them with
uh people who are sighted um, but can't see the icons.
And that's to check that they're actually, um, understandable or distinguishable.
(13:22):
But then, of course, we also test them with people
who have been blind from birth, because it can be
as a sighted person that you think something is understandable,
but if you've never seen.
S1 (13:34):
It, you've got to have known about it at some.
S2 (13:36):
Point. Exactly. That's right. So it's important to test with
those two sort of extreme audiences.
S1 (13:44):
And does that mean that over time this will develop
as a sort of universal icon language? Is that what
you hope will happen?
S2 (13:54):
So it's interesting. Um, map map makers have always, uh,
over the centuries, gone. Let's come up with a universal
set of icons for maps. So this is for visual maps.
But in reality, every country is different. Um, every context
is slightly different. So rather, I think what the way
(14:15):
I view it is that you have a bank of
different designs that you can use, but, um, you know,
it's not that you should use this, but rather it's
just a resource that can help you to develop the
icons and things that are appropriate for your particular situation.
S1 (14:32):
And is this the sort of thing, you know, I'm
thinking kind of longer term. Yeah. Um, because these are
being made here. Yeah. With your 3D printer and laser
cutting and all that kind of thing. Um, but longer term,
I can imagine that other people could sort of access
that technology and make their own.
S2 (14:51):
Absolutely. Well, everything that we develop here is, um, open
source and the designs are available through repositories. Um, 3D
printing repositories like Thingiverse. And we hope that other people
are using them. And in fact, some of the stuff
that we developed, we know it is being used all
over the world. What we would hope is, yeah, that
(15:13):
there are other providers who come along and go, ah, actually,
there's a big market. Let's try and or, let's create
maps for every public space in Victoria or every public
space in Australia.
S1 (15:25):
Where should we go next? What will we look at?
You were showing me some devices that worked with computers before.
S2 (15:32):
Yes. So, okay, we're coming across and looking at a
collection of refreshable tactile displays. So refreshable tactile displays, um,
Are designed to show tactile graphics and multiline braille, and
they consist of something, say, 60 by 40 grid of
(15:54):
little pins that can move up and down. And refreshable.
Tactile displays have been around for quite a number of years,
but they've always been very, very expensive. But in the
last three years or over the last five years, there's
been a big push to develop new refreshable tactile displays
(16:14):
that are more affordable. And so we have, uh, the
dot pad. We also have a monarch and a graffiti,
which are examples of this.
S1 (16:25):
So there are three different brands.
S2 (16:27):
Yes. Yeah. That's right. With with slightly different characteristics. And
they cost somewhere between 10 and $30,000.
S1 (16:35):
Is that.
S2 (16:35):
All? Yeah, which sounds like a lot, but, um, it
is making them more affordable. and also as more people
use them, you.
S1 (16:43):
Would.
S2 (16:43):
Expect the price will come down. Yeah. Um, and we're
really excited about them because we're working with education departments. Um,
Spivey and Roundtable to look at how you can use
these devices to support students who are blind or have
low vision studying mathematics in upper secondary school. So what
(17:05):
we know is that those students are dropping out of
mathematics as soon as they can, or many of them are.
And that's because of issues in accessing graphical information, issues
in communicating with sighted students and teachers because they're working
in Braille, and the which is not understood, necessarily understood
(17:29):
by those people, and also having access to accessible calculators.
And we think the refreshable tactile displays provide an opportunity
to really overcome these barriers. Obviously, they can provide graphics.
They can also act as an accessible, um, calculator. And um, monarch,
for example, will also show a dual view of what's
(17:51):
being shown on the the monarch as in a visual way.
So it will translate, you know, the Braille into, um,
text or into equations.
S1 (18:01):
And so that means then does it, um, if I
was a vision impaired person in a classroom, in a
maths classroom, and I'm sitting at a desk beside someone
who is not a vision impaired person, and we both
have our computers and but mine is connected to one
(18:23):
of these devices, then we're working on the same material.
That's correct. And the teacher is preparing one class for everyone.
If I'm the vision impaired person, I'm not off in
the corner working on something separate that Has been made
just for me. I'm part of the class.
S2 (18:42):
That's right.
S1 (18:43):
So that's not just a that's actually not just about
the education experience. It's the social experience as well.
S2 (18:50):
Totally, Chris. It completely changed for too long. Students who
are blind or have low vision are just sitting in
a corner all by themselves, marginalized. Um, if they're lucky,
they have an aide who's going to help them, but
they're feeling really excluded from, uh, all of the activities
that are going on in the classroom. And we need
to change that. And these new technologies are one of
(19:12):
the ways that we can do it. 3D printing is
another way. So we've also been looking at how you
can bring 3D prints into the classroom. And you know,
a 3D printed object is something that everybody wants to touch. So,
you know, you're no longer the blind kid with the
really nerdy equipment and special needs. You're the cool kid
(19:35):
who's got this latest model of Tyrannosaurus rex or something
like that. What we saw when we were using 3D
models in the classroom and feedback from teachers, they were going, ah,
this is great for our our blind student. But this
is also going to be great for our student who
has autism or it's going to be great for us. Well,
(19:57):
the entire classroom. So they become tools for inclusion rather
than exclusion.
S1 (20:02):
Yeah. Which again means there's a social aspect to that,
isn't it, that that you understand the way I work
and I understand the way you work rather than what?
I don't get what you're doing.
S2 (20:14):
That's exactly.
S1 (20:15):
Right. Fantastic. Tell me about CVI.
S2 (20:19):
Okay, so, um, we have another project. Uh, and we're
looking at how you can use, um, head mounted, uh,
mixed reality displays like the Vision Pro, Apple Vision Pro
to help people with CVI cerebral vision impairment understand their environment.
S1 (20:39):
Now, cerebral vision impairment is different from what we commonly
understand as blindness or low vision.
S2 (20:46):
That's correct. So commonly we think of blindness and low
vision occurring because of some sort of impairment associated with
the eye. Um, but in fact, the eye is only
a very small part of our visual processing system. And
much of what we think of as vision, uh, is
occurs because of different areas in the brain. So cerebral
(21:09):
vision impairment is a condition where, um, because of brain,
various different sorts of brain impairment, um, you can no longer, um,
see properly or.
S1 (21:22):
And that would come about from a whack to the
head in some way.
S2 (21:26):
Yeah. It can come about from a variety of different reasons. So, um,
it can be acquired later in life or it can also,
increasingly it's, uh, happens um, because premature babies may be
born with CVI and it's been only recently diagnosed. So um,
(21:48):
but it's now recognized that it's probably the most common
cause of vision impairment in young children. And while it
hasn't been recognized in adults, it's also believed to be widely, um, uh,
true in adults as well.
S1 (22:09):
Um, and so how will that work? You were telling
me before about the kind of the cluttered visual idea.
S2 (22:17):
So, so one of the issues with CVI, uh, is
that you can see things and in a very uncluttered environment,
you'll be able to find your, um, cup on the table,
but in an environment where you've got a lot of
things on the table.
S1 (22:38):
Because I haven't done the dishes. Yeah, exactly.
S2 (22:40):
Um, your brain will sort of go into overload. They'll
just be too much visual stimulation, and you'll find it
very difficult to to find your cup. So what we're
doing is exploring how you can use the Vision Pro
to actually change what you're seeing. So what it will
do is you say, ah, where's my cup? And your
cup will glow. And the other things will fade out
(23:03):
so that you can actually find where it is.
S1 (23:05):
Wow.
S2 (23:06):
Um, another thing that it will do is if you're
reading a menu, it will. You can run your finger
down the side of the menu, and it will overlay
the menu with clearer text. And if you like, also
audio reading out whatever the menu item is. And you
can control that with your finger.
S1 (23:26):
Fantastic. And did you say to me before, um, the
person you're working with on the CVI project is someone
who lives with CVI.
S2 (23:36):
Yes, yes, she has lived experience of CVI and is
a researcher in.
S1 (23:40):
And is that common in a lot of what you
do here?
S2 (23:44):
It's absolutely.
S1 (23:45):
It kind of has to be, doesn't it?
S2 (23:46):
It has to be. Nothing for us without us. Yeah. It's, uh,
co-design is a really core part of what we do.
Our centre manager is blind. She provides input into what
we're doing.
S1 (23:59):
And she has a pretty good Barbie on her desk
as well.
S2 (24:03):
That's right. So our centre manager, Ramona Mandy, is blind.
And so she has a Barbie doll with a seeing
eye dog on her desk.
S1 (24:11):
Fantastic. So, have we touched on everything we should? I mean,
there's lots of other things here that you might want
to talk about, but.
S2 (24:21):
I was just going to quickly say, um, I is
something that's really going to change things. And so we're
doing quite a lot of work with conversational agents as well.
And how you can make 3D models, um, talk to
you and feel alive. You can pick them up and
they'll vibrate and, um, yeah, it's just like having a
conversation with not a person, but with the model itself.
(24:43):
And I think, you know, this is something that's also
going to change the future.
S1 (24:47):
You get very excited coming to work every day. Absolutely, Chris.
S2 (24:50):
We are so lucky. We're so lucky to have this
wonderful environment. And, um, and as I said before, we're
living in a really exciting time where these technologies, I
think can make a real are going to make a
significant difference.
S1 (25:05):
It must be almost the perfect time, isn't it? Because
is it a race between what you can come up
with as an idea to pursue and what technology is
doing in terms of the capabilities it offers?
S2 (25:17):
Absolutely. You know, you go, oh, we could do this.
Oh no, somebody's already done this.
S1 (25:21):
So, you.
S2 (25:22):
Know, it's just so much out there, which is fantastic.
S1 (25:25):
So what's the do you have like a long term
plan for what will happen here? Um.
S2 (25:33):
Long term plan? Um, well, we only started last year, but, uh,
we want to get more staff. We would like we're
working with, uh, other organisations across Australia, other academics across Australia.
So what we well, what we want to do is
for Australia to become a leader in assistive technology. And
(25:53):
we're looking at how we can work with organisations like remarkable, uh, who, um,
generate a start up entrepreneurial support for disability tech. And
so what we want is for this centre to become
a hub for the development of different sorts of assistive technologies.
Some of those will be commercially sold, but also a
(26:14):
lot of them will be, you know, where appropriate will
be provided as open source.
S1 (26:23):
It's fantastic. Um, I'm really glad I was able to
come out. And thank you so much for showing me
around and explaining what all these things are. It's pretty
remarkable work. It just seems like it's really fun at
the same time. Oh yeah.
S2 (26:42):
It is. And look, if you're interested in maths, please
have a look at our website. And we have a
Friends of Maths program for individuals who want to learn
more about maths and get our newsletter and be invited
to seminars and things like that. And we also have
partners of maths. So for organisations who would like to
(27:03):
work with maths and there's on our website, there are
contact details and how you how you can join those programmes.
S1 (27:10):
Do we all wear the same t shirt?
S2 (27:13):
Well we should get a t shirt. Yes. We don't
have one yet, but we. Yeah. Good idea.
S1 (27:18):
Chris. So, um, that website, how do we find it?
S2 (27:21):
So it's, uh, just w.w.w. Monash.
S1 (27:29):
Fantastic. And then just follow the links to the friends of.
S2 (27:33):
Thank you so much for coming, Chris. Uh, it's been
a pleasure.
S1 (27:42):
If you'd like to listen to this interview again or
share it with a friend or family member, it's available
on our podcast feed. Just search for Vision Australia Radio.
Interview highlights wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again to
Kim Marriott for showing me around the maths department at
Monash Uni. You can hear me Chris Thompson on Behind
the Scenes every Monday night on Vision Australia Radio or
(28:03):
in your own time, or at VA radio, Digital or
online at VA Radio.com. Thanks again, Kim Marriott, and thanks
to Mark Ridout for producing.
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