Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:14):
On Vision Australia Radio. Welcome to this special broadcast thanks
to Vision Australia Library in partnership with the Melbourne Writers
Festival 2025 at the Vision Australia Library on Friday the
9th of May, Melbourne Writers Festival held a conversation with
award winning author Nadia Simpson. Musician and author Nahdi reflects
on motherhood, belonging and connection to country in The Bellbird,
(00:36):
her lyrical novel weaving the everyday with the metaphysical. Vision
Australia Radio is a proud media partner to Melbourne Writers Festival,
and we hope you enjoyed this special broadcast of Nadia Simpson,
The Bellbird, presented by Vision Australia Library.
S2 (00:57):
Welcome everyone. Welcome to the Vision Australia Library and we're
delighted to have you with us this evening in conversation
with Nardi Simpson for the Melbourne Writers Festival. As we
begin the evening, we take a moment to acknowledge the
traditional custodians of the land on which we gather today
here at Kooyong. That's the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nations.
(01:20):
We pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging.
Recognising their rich history of tens of thousands of years
of storytelling, oral storytelling is so important to our Vision
Australia library community. And as a library service, we're committed
to the telling of First Nations stories and continuing to
support the traditions of oral storytelling. So my name is
(01:44):
Justine Heath and I'm the acting CEO of Vision Australia.
Vision Australia is Australia's leading service provider for people living
with blindness and low vision. Our library service is hosting
tonight's event. Vision Australia Library is the national public library
for Australians living with a print disability. Sibility we open
up the world of books and learning and accessible audio,
(02:06):
braille and digital formats and support a wonderful community of
readers and writers across the country. It's fantastic to welcome
some of our members and volunteers with us here tonight
at Kooyong, as well as those joining us online. So
it's a tradition when we gather at Vision Australia to
do a roll call and a description of the space
in which we're meeting. Now, with so many of us
(02:29):
here tonight, we're not going to do the roll call,
but I will do a bit of a description of
the space. So we're in a large conference room and
we have a stage at the front, and I'm standing
just next to the stage and we have our guests
on the stage. You came in through a door to
my right. To your left and out that door are
(02:49):
the are the facilities. So getting to the important part
of this evening, I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome Nadia Simpson.
Nadia is a storyteller. You might have to correct me
on the on the pronunciation, because you know, that oral
storytelling bit that might not, might not be my strength.
So her first novel, song of the crocodile, was long
(03:12):
listed for the 2021 Stellar Prize and the Miles Franklin Awards.
92nd novel, The Bell Bird, was released in October 2024
and is described as a masterfully woven novel about the
precious fragility of life. 90 works as a research associate
at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music. Growing story and sound
(03:34):
projects in both her Sydney and Yuwaalaraay communities. I also
know that we've just been having a debate about whether
Nadia is in a band or actually in a duo.
So is a duo a band? And I can assure you,
she has a very lovely voice. Now Nadia is going
to be in conversation with Kate Mildenhall, and Kate is
(03:54):
the author of three novels Skylarking, The Mother Fault, and
The Hummingbird Effect. The hummingbird effect, was long listed for
the 2024 Stellar Prize, and shortlisted for the 2024 Abia
Literary Fiction Book of the year. In 2024, she released
her first children's book, To Stir with love, and for
(04:14):
the past six years she has co-hosted the First Time podcast,
interviewing hundreds of writers including Tim Winton, Helen Garner, Richard Flanagan,
George Saunders and Charlotte Wood. Her fourth novel will be
published in late 2025. So if you'll join me in
welcoming Maddie and Kate.
S3 (04:37):
Thank you so much, Justine, for that warm welcome and acknowledgement.
It is an absolute delight to be with you all
here tonight. Um, I just want to also acknowledge Daniel James,
Yorta Yorta man, journalist and writer who had prepared to
host this event tonight and sends his apologies. He's been
(04:57):
called away on family matters, but his regret is my joy.
Natty I've had the opportunity to interview Natty Simpson a
couple of times, once for the podcast and more recently
with the wonderful doctor Anita Heiss in at Newcastle Writers Festival,
and I am a huge fan. So it's my absolute
(05:18):
delight to be here tonight with you all, Natty. We
didn't have a lot of time to prep with each other,
but one of the things that you did last night
at opening night of Melbourne Writers Festival was sing for
us ladies duo. The stiff gins are quite fabulous, and
(05:38):
I have asked Natty to sing before and sing us
into a session, which is what she has agreed to
do for us tonight. Thank you Natty. Thank you. Mhm.
S4 (05:51):
Mhm. What happens if I throw that to you and
you do that bit. Breathe. Mhm. Whatever I do you
just keep doing that. Mhm. Little bird hatched on paper but.
(06:14):
Skin and bone. Featherless and free. Mother's womb to the
edge of fire and possum fur. Little bird. Clutch of
(06:35):
salty tongue within smoke. Paddle coming wave. Downy bone. Running fast.
Seams of crumbling cold. Oof! Little bird. Little bird. Little bird.
(07:10):
Little bird. Little bird. You. Two. We're going on the road.
(07:32):
We need a big bus.
S3 (07:34):
What an absolute treat. As I knew it would be
to have us sing us into here. And let's begin
with song. For those people in the audience who don't
yet know Nash's novels. And I encourage you very much
as Justine has, to make sure you get them after
the session. If you don't already have them, you turn
(07:54):
towards writing novels after years of music and singing. What?
What happened? Why the change? Where did the stories come from?
Where did Song of Crocodile come from?
S4 (08:04):
Yeah, I, I, I love singing, but I'm impatient. And
I thought I always need to be moving, you know,
or feel like I'm in some kind of motion. And
after 20 years of singing, I thought, I know what
(08:25):
the next 20 years is going to look like. It's
going to look like exactly where I am now. And
that was because I thought, I ain't going to get
any better. Um, I had reached the my maximum, whatever
it was, I was going to do more of that,
(08:45):
but I wondered if it was going to be challenging. And, uh,
you know, if I could push myself. So I thought, oh,
my songs are getting real long. Anyway, I'm going to
try writing. And actually, looking back now was wanting a
different way to, um, um, engage with ideas. So singing
(09:14):
for me is me saying something, but writing is me
asking something. So I kind of cut. I thought I
would retire my guitar and take up writing, but of course,
you know, I needed to bring my musical self into
(09:38):
my writing to get it done. I just didn't know that. Yeah.
S3 (09:42):
What question were you asking when you began writing song
of the crocodile? Um.
S4 (09:51):
I think it was, um, something about the way I
kind of think about myself is I've got. I've got
one foot on different sides of a river. I got
two really different things working in me a lot. So, um.
(10:20):
My mum's non-Indigenous, my dad's blackfella. He's from the bush.
I was born in the city, musically. Um. My dad's
family are really oral. Amazing. They can hear anything. Pick
it up straight away. And then mum's musical training. She
(10:42):
went to Catholic school and learn instruments and in choirs.
And I'm kind of a mixture of both. I'm neither.
I'm a mixture. And I really do think that there's
these two kind of, uh, um, they're not opposing, but
they're complementary differences working in me. And I think being located.
(11:11):
Away from my cultural self, I wasn't lacking, but I
was existing as a person in my community up there
and an Aboriginal person in Sydney. And that writing of
(11:32):
crocodile was, how do I how does this work for me?
How can I understand the joy and the frustration and,
you know, all those opposing halves? How can I connect
to the thing that I'm away from when I'm not there?
(11:54):
And so really, it was writing. It was writing. It
was writing myself into my homeland, even though my life, um,
was rooted in somebody else's homeland.
S3 (12:12):
You say there that your songs had started to get
quite long. There's a very different practice, um, in, in
going from writing a song, which I imagine is, what, 300,
400 words, something like that, to writing a 70, 80,000
word novel. What? What skills did you have? What muscles
(12:32):
did you have to work on to be able to
write the novel? What was that like for you?
S4 (12:38):
I think, uh, I felt a very natural change because
I was frustrated and ready For a different thing. Um,
and the freedom, actually, of being able to swim in
(12:59):
a single idea, and also because I didn't know how
to structure a long story, I had zero idea, but
I knew how to make a solid song. So I
didn't understand what the needs of readers were, so I
could just. You know, whatever. Wax lyrical for days about
(13:26):
a single minute detail. Um, and all that stuff came
later when you, you know, you're working on it with somebody,
which I really enjoyed that, um, knowledge system as well.
Somebody else held on to that for me, but I really, uh,
you know, I was just ready to be still, I
(13:49):
think even though I said I got into writing because
I wanted movement there. See opposites again. I really enjoyed, um,
not having to move or the having the choice of
how to progress, because it was very different to, um,
what I'd kind of been trained and do naturally.
S3 (14:12):
You mentioned the readers there, but as one of your
big fangirls, uh, and a reader of song of the crocodile,
the experience for us is immersive. It's compelling. It's the
story of place and family and generations of River of story. Um,
what I'm interested in is that you you spoke to
(14:33):
the wonderful Michael Williams in the read this podcast about
the fact that once you finish song of the crocodile,
you made a list of the things for your next
book that you were not going to do the same
as in song of the crocodile. Can you tell us
about that? Because that's about learning and progress, right?
S4 (14:50):
Yeah. Uh, biggest mistake ever. Rookie mistake. Uh, I made
a list of. It was. I thought it was a
list of what I wasn't going to do, but it
probably was a list of. Um. Who I didn't want
(15:16):
to be, you know, and just coming out, um, in
my creative pursuit, I mean, what I was. Oh, I
may list, you know, no long sentences, no creative spirits,
things that I. And looking at that now, it's because
(15:39):
I know those things and I'm comfortable there that I thought, well,
I want to try and push myself to do things
that are that don't feel warm.
S3 (15:58):
Before we go on to talking about the bellbird specifically
because I want to deep dive on that, um, I
want to ask about your Ualarai language and, and how
the use of that shapes your creative works.
S4 (16:14):
I, I've been on a 25 year journey of learning.
And during that time, this is what I love about it.
You know, I, I feel I have a relationship with
language in which I'm the kindergartener all the time. I
(16:36):
love that. And I, I relate to. those words, but
more importantly, the concepts of the words, the context of
how they come about not as an acquisition thing, but
(16:56):
as a relationship, an ongoing unfurling relationship with a much
greater knowing than me. And that makes me feel really good. Um,
and so bringing my learning, not my knowing, into writing, um,
(17:23):
means that I'm always able to discover things and, uh.
Sort of a, um, a connection with, um, things that are.
(17:43):
That know you, but you don't know them. Is the
you know, it's it makes me feel good. But it's
also really rich, fertile place to write from when you're
discovering things and discovering, um, yes, words, but also the
(18:06):
space around the words, the things you don't have words for,
or concepts that are slightly skewed to how we move
in the world. It for me, it always makes me
mindful of the things that I'm not and leaving space
for that and that that sort of approach works for me.
S3 (18:30):
I think that you're asking of questions, but also your interest,
your ear for your curiosity about language and your playfulness
with it is one of the great joys of reading
your work, and particularly of reading the Bell bird. You
can really sink into the sentences, the the rhythm and
the sound of them as well. There's to begin our
(18:54):
conversation about the bell bird. There's a very specific origin
story for this novel. Can you tell us about the
train ride? Yeah.
S4 (19:03):
I was on a train. Short little trip from my
home into Circular Quay in Sydney. And there was a
mob of women talking about. One of them was house hunting,
trying to find house, you know. And they saw. She
saw this place. It wasn't big enough. She saw that place.
Not enough bedrooms. Another place had a pool. And so
(19:26):
they were going to show it to her kids on
the weekend. And if they liked it, they'll put in
an offer, and then the universe will decide. That happened
at the very instant that the announcer said, next stop, Redfern.
And so it was like those two sides of the
river coming together. And I thought, you know, I remember thinking,
(19:51):
that's that's not how it works. That's not how the
universe works. That's how decision making in your family works.
But you know that that kind of bounty isn't available
to everybody, and certainly not people that I am connected to.
And then I got I pulled myself up because I
(20:12):
heard myself being, um, not nice about people that I
don't even know. And I thought, well, you're so great, Nattie.
How do you know how the universe works? And just that,
that provocation of being in Redfern and Black Sydney. My
dad was in the wave of country people in the 70s. Um,
(20:33):
probably happened here too, down in Fitzroy. That moved from
the from the country into the cities. Um, so he
was it's really close to me that time where our
family were living in tin shacks, you know, and these
mob talking about games rooms and pools. But, um, it
(20:58):
stopped me. I pulled up from judging and I thought, well,
what is the universe in this context? And I had known, um,
the story of this little girl who was born to
two very important First Nation people. Um, when the First
Fleet came and that little their child, they they owned
(21:19):
both sides of the harbour, Bennelong and Barangaroo. They had
a little baby who was born at a time, uh,
when we were born. And she was everything that had been.
And she was going to be everything to come. And
so I just started imagining that little baby as the universe.
(21:43):
And that was a great gift those ladies gave me.
And bringing that little baby back into into my mind.
S3 (21:57):
So it it is her story in part, the story
of the past and the present and the future of
bellbird of the daughter. And it's also the story of Ginny,
who's a black poet navigating uni and performance and identity.
And I want to know where, where she came from.
And what did you want her story to say about
(22:18):
being young and Aboriginal in Sydney now?
S4 (22:20):
Yes. Well, I think, you know, going back to that
list that I made, you know, I know, um, no
dreaming spirits. And then I was well on the way
to breaking that rule, uh, And I mean, it's natural
for me to see those that ancientness in the modern world. Um,
(22:42):
but I am also quite aware that, um, if you're
not socialized that way, it may be hard to see
those connections. Which is why, um, Jinny, who is, you know,
the young woman I wished I was, was so important, um,
(23:04):
for me, but also for the telling of the story
when you're kind of not digging up, it's not digging up,
but you're dragging in, um, long times ago. Uh, you
need you need a strong now moment to be able
(23:26):
to show that that continuance and to hint to the future.
And so she was important for me to say there's
all this kind of old, rich, beautiful business. It's like
magical thinking. You know why we're here? There's all this magical.
(23:49):
Beauty in our cultures. But what's happening now is also
magical and beautiful. Um. And. I'm always quite aware of, um.
What's that word? Authentic. Representations of what is authentic. I
(24:13):
don't even I don't, you know, it's incumbent upon me
to celebrate how we were, are and always will be.
S3 (24:25):
Um, Michael Williams said that, among other things, The Bellbird
is actually a novel about making art. And Jenny's Ginny's
not only a poet, she's a publisher as well. What
did you want to say about the the act of
art making?
S4 (24:42):
Writing a little bit about this today. And, you know,
we're so lucky. We're so lucky. Creative people in general.
We're so lucky because we know a lot of creative
people and we see creativity everywhere. Same for First Nation
communities like we, you know, we're we're deadly and we
have a level of deadliness that that is an everyday
(25:04):
deadliness that people may not know about. There are artists
and singers and writers and entertainers and comedians galore in
our communities who are born that way, but may not
(25:25):
necessarily have a mic and some lights and. camera on them. So.
It's natural for me to know that. And to have
(25:50):
the option for everybody to have the skill that, um.
Only some people are not afforded. But, you know, thing with.
So of course, she's going to publish because, you know,
her stuff's good enough, and the way she wants to
do it is different to everyone. And I think that's
(26:13):
a blackfella thing, but it's also a very creative thing. Um.
We're lucky that we know a lot of people who
wake up deadly and they don't need, you know, a
book on a shelf to prove it.
S3 (26:32):
I won't give any spoilers because I know that you'll
all go and read The Bellbird, but when you get
to Jenny's publication, I want you to really enjoy that
and think about what Natty's just said now. Natty, um,
there's an aspect of the bellbird story and that you
took a really particular approach to, and you've said in
(26:52):
an interview that you wanted to use a story to
uphold someone else's sovereignty, and that there was enormous responsibility
in you working out how you were going to tell
that particular story. Can you just share what that involved? Yeah.
S4 (27:10):
So that little baby who was living, breathing baby, she
only lasted for five months. Um, even though, um, you know,
she her mother was cameragirl and her father was wangal.
Clans of the Sydney Basin. And even though I live there,
(27:31):
I can't tell. She lived a life. She has connections
and obligations that I am um, in significant to. And
it's not my job. Especially when your name, you know,
(27:52):
on a book. Your name is big. Um. It's not my.
It's not my place to. Become an authority on her
because she has family. That should tell that story if
(28:15):
they so choose. And it was a navigation for me
about being drawn to the possibility of this Baby and
who I believe she is without saying, um, without telling
(28:37):
any of the detail of her breathed life. I know
that's not the right way to say, but that's how
it happens in my head all the time that she
was on that she breathed, took breath. That belongs to
someone else. But I can imagine the richness of what
happened before the breath and what happened after. And that's
(29:03):
why I made those decisions, not to write anything about
the life of that little girl, because that's not mine.
And I. I also get frustrated when I see non-Indigenous
people telling Blackfella stories, um, and their name on top.
So if I hold, if I have that Reaction to them.
(29:26):
I should also make sure that I don't do the same.
That was my response really to. And also I'm really interested,
you know, how how do those things, how can you
how can the opportunity to make something like that? Um.
How can a novel, how can I use a novel to.
(29:54):
Maintain my relationships? Because if I would have, I thought, well,
I was writing, you know, I got an 18 year
old son I didn't want him to be. Oh, that's
the son of that one who wrote that story that
didn't belong to her. Because my connections become his. Um, so,
you know, it was a kind of, um, conceptual thing,
(30:18):
but also a real lived thing. How can a book
Ensure I have proper relationship with the people and the
places that I'm connected to. And I'm not connected to.
S3 (30:33):
The the kind of ethical responsibilities that you took into account,
along with that conceptual understanding of what comes before, gives
life to this extraordinary thread throughout the book where we
where we follow sprite. Um, and, and the novel is
really so rich with questions of, of birth and of
(30:58):
grief and of nurturing. Um, what what were you kind
of exploring about motherhood and generation and birth?
S4 (31:08):
Um, um, I think the a lot of my, a
lot of mob everywhere have these really beautiful ways that
are child. The idea of a child is conceived, um,
whether the mother knows it or not. That, you know,
(31:29):
whatever the elements are, whether it's land or spirit or, um,
ancestors conspire to give you a connection. So there's love
behind the way that it happens before the mother is
even aware, which just sort of shows to me. I
(31:51):
love that idea of, um, a continued and a love
that never began. It just always was. And so sprite
is a, um, a way to share that ideal, you know, up,
up where we are, you know? Um. You got to
(32:15):
be careful if you see an echidna, if a echidna
walks past you, you know, maybe that that echidna can
give you that baby. Or if you drink, you drink,
you drink from a lake. A particle in that could
be the gift of a child from whatever. And those
(32:37):
things are. That's just love in beautiful ways. So it's
natural to want to try and. Evoke those kinds of things.
And sprite is a little unborn birth spirit. And she's
living on in an underground lair and this, uh, big
(33:03):
eel who is in charge of giving all this birth
spirits out is her first mother. Um. Yeah. It's, beautiful
and natural to think that there's a succession of people
(33:23):
who have invested in us before we're even aware.
S3 (33:31):
She's got, um, she's got such spunk. Her voice. Right.
I can still kind of feel her buzzing and wiggling around. Um,
when I'm thinking about the book, um, I know that
there are writers in the audience, and I know and
imagine there'll be some joining us online and in the
podcast after. So I want to just ask you a
little bit about the writing process, and I want to
(33:51):
bring it back to Ginny because she imagines at one
point in the book, and I'm going to quote, quote this, um,
the writing room of her dreams. And this is what
she says. This would be her writing room, where the
thin shyness of the boulder hemmed Creek would dip her
words in wisdom, and the bold River would push movement
and vigor onto her page. Like Nadia, I want that
(34:14):
writing room to write. I.
S4 (34:16):
I know where that place is too, because I've seen it.
It's a walleye creek up in Sydney.
S3 (34:21):
So what does your writing space, your writing time? What
does that feel like? Where do you put your body
and how to get the words on the page?
S4 (34:33):
I think as I'm coming to know my writerly self
better because it's a different process to making music. I
think what I require is. A bit of nature, not
(34:55):
in my writing room, but access. Access to, you know,
river or escarpment with a bush. And I think that's
what I need to be able to then, you know,
(35:16):
write anywhere. And I really am starting to understand that,
because I think what happens for me in those places
is that's where the ideas and I get sort of
energized with, um, the possibility of, um, writing an idea.
So that feeds those places. Place feeds my, um, activity.
(35:42):
So as long as I got somewhere quiet and. What,
I don't know, earthy or watery, um, to be. I
should be able to write anywhere.
S3 (36:02):
Work every day.
S4 (36:04):
I just see. This is the other thing. I've got
an iPad. I was telling somebody the other day, last night, actually,
it's probably a boring little yarn, but, Uh, I've got
an iPad, and I write on that because I write longhand,
but I'm always procrastinating about the right pen and the
(36:24):
right the right paper. And you know.
S3 (36:26):
What all writers.
S4 (36:27):
Do? I waste so much making time on getting my
tools right. I've got iPad now, and I've got the
little pen, and I've got the texture that makes it
feel like it's a real thing.
S3 (36:40):
Does it make noises like a pen scratching?
S4 (36:43):
No, it's just got a little bit of resistance. That
feels nice, but the pages unending. Ah.
S3 (36:50):
But when do you have a break? When do you
get a cuppa?
S4 (36:53):
This is what I'm excited about. This is nerdy stuff now. Sorry. Um, it.
You stop when the idea is. Exhaled. You know, and
if I got one of them, I'll go. Ah, I'll
go flip the page off. Fresh page. I'm not going to.
(37:15):
I'll just stop there. But having that unending page for
me at the moment is helping me to follow an
idea to when it's ready, not when I get in
its way when it's ready to finish up.
S3 (37:32):
Oh, that's really good. I'm going to steal that from you, Nattie.
There's there's a line in the bellbird about how we're
all connected from before we begin to long after we
begin again. What what's the importance of that idea for
you as a storyteller? Yeah.
S4 (37:49):
Um. Well. Um, that's what I. Yeah. That's what I believe.
It's what I want to share, actually, um, all the, um,
(38:11):
all the. What's the word now? All the. Um. It's
a swirling. Um. Organic. Freshness. Of black fallaway is the
(38:41):
thing that I want everyone to feel and experience. That.
And the thing that I think is, uh, a framework
for that richness is connection and relationship and being, I
(39:02):
was going to say, being essential to each other. It's
not that it's not not that, but being invested in
each other. Investors a yucky word too. It's a bit
Excel spreadsheet, but. um, um, being, um. Whatever. Finish that yarn.
That's the thing that I love to share. That's the
(39:26):
thing that gives me my highest resonance in life, being
connected to people. Um, it's not all fun and games.
It's hard work, too. But that connection continued investment that
(39:47):
somebody has for you, no matter where you are, is
the thing that I want everyone to experience. And that's
the gift of culture, I think. So that continuance, if
in our continuance, we can help you to feel how
special it is to be connected that can that's that
(40:09):
can only be good for all of us.
S3 (40:14):
The way that you share and one of the gifts
you have shared, um, with with me and through me,
that I have shared with so many writers, is an
absolutely extraordinary piece. You wrote, um, for the Griffith Review,
which I talk about all the time. He must be
sick of this. It's called gifts across Space and Time. Um,
and I encourage everyone to go and read it. You
(40:36):
can get it on the Griffith Review website. I was
reminded of it again last night at opening night, when
uncle Bill Nichols did his his superb and very generous
welcome to country to open the festival. And he talked
about the difference, um, in in his language, which I
don't know if it's the same in Ualarai, um, between
the words or the concepts of listening and hearing and
(41:01):
in in your piece you describe the speak, listen trade
and its importance. And it's such a gift for me
and for so many writers. Can you share a little
bit about that? Speak. Listen. Trade?
S4 (41:15):
Um. Um, well. Um, our word for listen is the
same as, um, remember, and also the same word to acknowledge. Um,
(41:37):
also the same word to know. And I know all
for you people. It's all about your ear and, uh. Yeah,
the ear is the seed of knowledge. And so to
listen is to respect. It's just a way to orient yourself,
(41:59):
you know? And I find it hard to to listen.
And not respond. And also to listen going to connection.
The thing that I was on about with that something
(42:21):
beautiful happens when you just receive and then that receiving dissolves.
You don't then go and oh, someone told me this,
someone told me this and I'm telling you this now
that's different. Um, there's a. To me, a really, um,
(42:52):
a really important respect in the moment of connection and
that staying here, and I understand, you know, I get
it when, um, I do it too with my other
black fellow friends and they tell me something. I think
that is the most amazing thing. I'm hungry for that.
(43:15):
So listening. And allowing your part of the exchange to
accept that's hard. But that's a really deep way of respecting.
And it's reminding me to. We got this thing. Babies.
(43:38):
They're born. They told to give. Don't. Don't hold anything
you can't afford to give away. And we've got this
word which the linguistic break up of the word is, um,
continuous reciprocal giving. So it's not I'll give you take.
(44:01):
It's I give you I give, I give you give
give give give give give. So if you're in a
relationship or relationality where everybody's giving different to listening and
then forwarding on. These are all practices that language holds
(44:24):
that I engage with. But, you know, of course I can.
I need to be better at it. But I think
that deep listening is about, um, the way that you
receive and allowing that, um, content to work on new
(44:44):
internally and not be a thing that you use as a, um, in,
in a, in, um, you know, for it to settle
in you. And that's the work you do, and it
just stays there for that long answer. but that's what
that that is. It's about giving and being in a,
(45:07):
in a, in a connection where you're giving and you're
safe and it's very intimate and it is strong because
it stays there.
S3 (45:24):
Well, we are so lucky to be in this space
while you are giving so generously to us. And though
I might look like I am not paying attention to
anything other than not speaking to me, I am keeping
note of the time, and I do want to make
sure there is time for our audience to pose some
questions before we finish. So if you have a question,
please begin thinking about it. I've got one more question
(45:44):
for Nati, and then Maureen will bring around the microphone.
So if you can just hold your question until the
microphone gets to you, just to make sure that we
capture it for the recording as well. Nati, I got
a kind of little buzz tingle of excitement when you
were talking about your iPad and whatever you're writing on there,
because that must mean something else is coming, right? Yeah.
(46:07):
So I don't know. Do you want to just give
us like a little hint about, can we expect a
book or a song or some other way that you're
going to tell your next story?
S4 (46:15):
Oh, well, this this is this is a book. See,
when I did song of the crocodile and they said, oh,
we'll take you down. I'd never came to Melbourne Writers Festival.
This is my first time here. But, um, come to
this festival and come to that. And I was living
the life, you know, I forgot everything about writing until
I got to a stage. And I thought, I'm talking
(46:35):
about something I did a long time ago. How am
I going to start this up again? And then I
made a list of things not to do. So I
went backwards. Um, so I've been while I'm talking, I
love while I'm talking about this one here and a
(46:55):
little bit that one there that I'm making up. Um, so, um,
the next one, because they're family, you know? You know,
and I only just get that. I think coming from music,
you think, oh, you make an album and you want
that to do that thing, then you make a next
album and you want. And it's only really connected because
(47:18):
you're the maker, but you don't really see it as a. Um,
a body of work. But I'm getting it now. And so,
you know, there's Mum and Dad and Little One on
the way, but, um, uh, yeah, that's what I'm doing
(47:40):
on my iPad.
S3 (47:41):
I am very excited for the, um, little one on
the way. Can I ask you now, have we got
any questions from from the audience? Just raise your hand,
and Maureen will bring a, um, microphone over to you.
And don't worry, I've got more questions. If you. If
no one has one. But I'll, we'll give a moment
because sometimes it's scary. Yes. There's one in the front
(48:03):
row here.
S5 (48:06):
Um, I just want you to talk a little bit
about the symbolism of water, both in your first book
and your second book, and how they're so connected, and
it's just such a beautiful allegory on both of them.
But can you explain that a bit more for us?
S4 (48:18):
Yeah. Water. So to me, um, song The Crocodile that was,
you know, make believe about who I am, where I'm from,
all that that, that kind of world. And that's all
fresh water where fresh water, river people. We understand our
world through flood and also drought. Um, and that's who
(48:47):
I was born into. Yeah. Bellbird is about that salty business.
It's about, Um, um, salt water country and the owners
of that place and, um, everything that I'm not. So.
(49:15):
It's natural for me to come at it from under
the under the water's edge, under the under the waterline.
I am the flood. That's what we say up in Oregon.
I'm the flood. But here, this is a salty, gritty,
different world. And even though it's not me. Even though
(49:37):
that water is. Buzzing on my tongue. It's still telling
me about myself. It's still holding a part of me.
And so that's the way I get into things. If
it's not water, it's earth. I probably need to branch
out a bit more.
S3 (50:00):
Are there any other questions? Oh, yes. There's one over here.
S6 (50:05):
Hi. Thanks so much. Um, are there any books or
musicians from your childhood that really inspired you to want
to be a musician or an author?
S4 (50:14):
Oh, my. Um. What happened? We always had music and
books at home. Different sides of the river. Um, my
(50:35):
dad's one of 11, and, you know, six of them
brothers were in a band. One word full of binds.
And it was all covers. Covers? Um. Oh, it was
all covers. I shouldn't be judgy on that, but they
could hear it and play anything, you know. And I
(50:58):
think what I learned, there was a lot of country
music and Creedence and all that sort of stuff. The, um,
the the Eagles. And I think what I learned rather than. The,
the song I was watching, what music was to. The
(51:22):
Yanks and they were showing me that you can make sound.
And offer it as a way for everybody to interact
and relate. That's what I learned from them. So it
wasn't really like this is a musical output, even though
(51:44):
they were wonderful players. What they were modeling for me
was you can use a kind of creative way to
be the platform for other people to not just feel good,
but to get to know each other. The sound of
relationship and mum, um, she, um, is a great reader
(52:08):
and she wrote a couple of books when we were
very young. I was in year six, and I remember
I cried to be in one of the books. She
wrote a little series called The Mindy Series, and it
was six books, all targeted to different year in primary school.
And she took all the photos, and her and dad, um,
(52:31):
worked on those little stories. And what I saw from
there was how to use your connections. To inspire work.
(52:53):
two different ways. The one was music used music to
help people relate. The other one was bring your connections
onto a page and and and put the people that
you love in things like that. So I didn't, I
didn't know, but they were showing me. They were giving
(53:16):
me the gift of being of, um, the, the courage
to be creative. But put that to work for other
than yourself.
S3 (53:28):
So to finish then and to bring all these ideas together,
you're talking about the courage to be creative about the
things that you learnt from those who came before you.
And now you, Nardi Simpson, are in that position because
you are making art for us and you are sharing it,
and you are at places like here, surrounded by the
incredible library of Vision Australia and with Melbourne Writers Festival,
(53:51):
and you're curating and bringing creatives together for the people
in this room and listening at home who are writers
or who are art makers of any kind, and they're
feeling a bit worried about how they're going to make
their art. What advice to finish would you give them
about how to go forward in, in making the art
(54:15):
they want to make?
S4 (54:16):
Yeah. I don't know much, but, um, what I've started
telling myself, which I think is a. Good thing for everybody,
whether you're writing or not. Be kind to yourself. You know,
(54:38):
I was doing them ones today on the iPad. Oh,
that's that's silly that, you know. And then I went
to rub it out and I thought, be kind. It'll
get better. It will change. It may. You may have
a better idea. Leave it there. Be kind to yourself.
(55:00):
And that's made a real difference to me. Because I think,
you know, for me, that second my the bellbird, I
wanted to I wanted old naughty kicked in. I wanted
to start achieving things. And, um, um, now I want
(55:20):
to tell myself that, you know, you got to you
got to show kindness to yourself wherever you're at, whatever
you're doing. And that just doing that slows you down
and connects you to the moment that you're in. I think, um, and,
(55:40):
you know, I think it's easier to be kind to somebody.
It's harder to be kind to yourself. So just that
little thing, you know? Um, that's probably the best advice
I can give from somebody who gets in her own
way and makes trips over things. And, um, um, is
(56:00):
loved and supported and encouraged. That's still the one thing that, um,
I can do through all those little tributaries is to
just be kind to yourself. You're going to be right.
S3 (56:14):
And what an utterly beautiful note, um, for us to
finish on, can you please join me in thanking Nadia
Simpson for the most generous and wise conversation?
S1 (56:37):
Thank you for listening to Nadia Simpson The Bellbird, a
special broadcast from the Melbourne Writers Festival 2025, in partnership
with Vision Australia Library. Nardi Simpson's book The Bellbird is
available in Daisy audio through Vision Australia Library, and you
can find more information about the wonderful services and content
available through Vision Australia Library by heading to Vision Australia.
(56:58):
Org or calling 130654656. That's 130654656. If you'd like to
share this program with someone, it's available via podcast. All
you need to do is search for interview highlights from
Vision Australia Radio wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you
(57:19):
for listening to this special broadcast presented by Vision Australia
Library and Melbourne Writers Festival here on Vision Australia Radio.
VA radio digital and online at VA radio.