March 17, 2025 • 34 mins
In this raw and honest episode, Ash and Kayla dive deep into the complex world of hyper independence after loss. As two widowed mums, they unpack how being 'super capable' is less about wanting to do it alone and more of a coping strategy to mask the pain. Listen as they share their personal journeys of navigating solo parenting. From doing all the midnight nappy changes to refusing help with tasks around the house, they share moments that made them realise: sometimes the strongest thing we can do is ask for support. Whether you're navigating life after loss or simply finding yourself in the 'I can do it all' trap, this episode offers insight, understanding, and permission to lean on others.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apodjay production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Please note that this conversation is a big one. Well,
we're discussing grief, loss and mental health. If this isn't
the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join us
on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just Life
and Lemons. I'm Ash and I'm Kayla. This podcast is
all about embracing life's lemons and making them into something beautiful.
We've had a fair few lemons thrown it away, but
(00:33):
we're not letting that stop us.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Today. We're diving into a topic that many of us
can relate to hyperindependence. As a result of trauma, This
mindset often leads to shutting others out and coping in
ways that might not be healthy.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So, Kayla, we often talk about the term autopilot. What
does that mean for you?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
My whole life for the last five years has been
on autopilot. I think, without even realizing it. You know,
you have milestone after milestone, you work, you come home,
you do the grind, and do you see your friends,
you see your family? You know, and then before you
know it, it's September October and a whole nother year's
nearly finished. And I think I've very much been living
(01:14):
on autopilot as a coping mechanism the last five years.
You know, we touched on our first episode about the
stages of grieving and you know, that cycle, and we
touched a little bit on you know, the whole depression
phase and looking at it now, you know, I think
that really only hit me probably of maybe March this year,
where that autopilot and novelty of that has worn off completely,
(01:38):
and you know, you're so busy that the adrenalines kind
of finished now, you know, and the autopilot is coming
to an end, and that's when the reality of your
life just sets in. It just hits you like a
ton of bricks. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And I know that you've spoken a lot about as well,
when you're in that autopilot phase that you feel almost
emotionless during that completely.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I think I have described myself the last five years
as basically like I'm made of concrete. I don't show
my feelings. I don't talk about my feelings, which is
not a good thing. I don't like people in I
don't like people helping me. I don't ask for help
as much as I can avoid it. I feel like
anything people say to me, especially about Maxwell or about parenting.
(02:23):
I just shut it down. I just cannot cope with it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
So the autopilot is a coping strategy ipposed to a
state that you want to be in.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I don't think it's a healthy state to be in.
But I think after you know, a lemon in life
or you know, losing your partner, I think it's a
coping strategy. And it's only now five years on that
I actually can reflect on it has been a coping strategy.
And you know, people say to you, how are you,
you know, managing, how are you working full time? How
are you raising your son? How are you You're okay?
(02:54):
Like you seem so fine, and it's like, well, one
I've had to be fine, and two I have been
living a completely on autopilot.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And so you think that part of that has then
been unintentionally blocking people out. Like you say that you don't,
you know, talk to people, and you sort of shut
that down.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah. I mean I came across this. I didn't know
what hype independence was and I actually saw it, I
think maybe on Instagram or something, and I looked into
it and I was like, wow, that is me. I'm
blocking people out I'm stopping evolving relationships being so independent.
It's hard to explain, but I now realize that this
whole hype independencing is me to a t.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think for me, I really agree with what you're saying,
and I also feel that I'm almost trying to convince
myself I'm okay when I actually know I'm not. So
I am feeling like I'm struggling. So I'm feeling, you know,
elements of the realities is hard, you know, to continue
on after loss and to keep showing up and putting
(03:53):
on the brape face like it's exhausting. So I feel
like for me there's that element as well. It's like
I'm almost trying to convince myself. I explain a lot
actually that I feel like I'm vis here, but that
I'm pretty vacant in my own head at times because
I'm literally just all of my energy goes into showing up.
And that's really that resilience that we talk a lot about.
(04:14):
But you know, I think you kind of keep insisting
that you're fine, but then over time you realize that
it's like far from the truth and you need to
get to a point of accepting that and.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
It's very much a defense mechanism. I think blocking people
out and not asking for help it's because you feel
like you're admitting to weakness. You're admitting that your life
has changed and you no longer can do the things
that maybe you used to do a lot easier with
that person by your side. So I think it's a
coping mechanism for me, where I'm like, I'm okay, I
can do it, I can wear both hats, I'm fine,
I'm fine, you.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Know, yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing that
I often feel is, you know, I have received so
much help and support, which often well, certainly in the
initial days, was necessary when I was in that real
state of survival, but I don't want to be a
burden to other people. So even now when people are
a help point, no, it's okay, But in reality, I like,
(05:06):
I need the help and it would be a huge help.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Have you ever felt that completely? You don't want to
feel like your problems are someone else's problems when everybody
else is dealing with their own stuff. I mean, I
don't know about you, but I constantly hear myself saying
it's easier if I do it myself. I don't need
a man. I'm a strong, independent woman, and I think
it's because I just hate relying on people. Maybe it's
(05:28):
to be let down if you don't ask for help,
you won't be let down if someone can't deliver. You know,
the expectations are low. I expect it from myself.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Is that because of the other person or is it
because of you? Like that internal dialogue.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I think it's it's more of I don't want to
let anybody else in. You know, it should be shown
by my side helping out, but it's not. It's me now,
and I think it's just a coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I definitely relate to that because I've found myself not
necessarily in the practical help, but certainly from probably more
of an emotional stage. There's definitely conversations that I've not had,
or a level of detail that I have not shared
with people because I actually don't want their response. And
it's not that I don't appreciate that person or their opinion.
(06:18):
I guess I'm so desperate to just hear Matt's response.
Like I the conversation I've been having with Matt and
I would have been having it, you know, whether it
be about the kids, or about just like how my
day at work was. Whatever the content of the conversation,
I don't want anyone else to reply, because I just
want Matt's reply, and I know that whoever I'm talking
(06:38):
to they may not even have the same view as Matt.
They might instead of maybe agreeing with me or saying
oh I would do it this way, They're going to
say something different, and I don't want that response, so
then I just don't tell them. So then I just
shut out the conversation entirely. And then I guess for me,
it's like, yeah, I absolutely hold back that emotional support
for myself, and it, you know, probably sounds crazy that
(07:00):
I just want to hear Matt's reply because obviously he's
not here to give that. So then I find that
that's how I shall down really more of that emotional state.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I find I get really snappy when people provide me feedback,
which I think is another element of hype independence when
people it's really a trigger for me when people talk
about parenting and Maxwell in particular, I think because I'm
living on autopilot and you're wearing both the hats of
mum and dad and you're working and doing everything. And
(07:28):
for me, when people start talking about Maxwell, I see
it as I'm not doing okay, I'm not coping, you know,
I'm not maybe doing things well. And I think, out
of this whole situation, parenting Maxwell is like the thing
that keeps me going. It's the thing I know that
I'm really good at. Again, it's not a good thing,
but it falls under this hyper independence bracket. Is getting
(07:49):
really snappy and defensive. Defensive mode when people talk about.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Max, as when they're talking about how you're parenting him.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
More about how I'm parenting him, or they give examples,
or it's like have you done this with him lately?
And has he had this? And have you bought this?
And you know, it's that can be so minor, but
it just is such a trigger.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, And I guess certainly in the sense of the
decisions that you're making, because something I've struggled with is
that I am now making decisions about things that Matt
and I didn't get the opportunity to talk about, or
even the conversation. We didn't get to finish it, so
we might have had some ideas, but the conversation. So
now it's on me, and there's a lot of I
feel a lot of pressure to make those decisions on
(08:29):
my own.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I think there's also that dependence on trying to live out,
you know, the dreams that you once had with somebody
as well and try you're still trying to do all
the family holidays you'd planned, and you're still trying to
follow the same routine that you once had and do
all the fun weekend adventures that you once had, and
I think there's this pressure to keep all that going.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, that's a huge one for me, the pressure for
both now and into the future. And that could be anything,
like you say, it's travel or holidays, experiences that we
thought we'd have, but also just the general experiencing of
parenting our children together as a family, which is now
not true. So like I feel like I still need
to live out those dreams because I'm still here with
(09:13):
our children. So I just can't explain how hard that feels, like,
for example, traveling, you know, and dreams that we had
of travel, but it's now on a single income, we
just don't have those luxuries, and then doing all of
the planning, like everything is now on our shoulders. So
I guess for me. When I lost Matt, I also
lost our future and what our family unit was going
(09:34):
to be, so not just the relationship and the marriage,
but also the family dynamic and the family unit and
the dreams that we had for that. I think another
pressure is not just in our own personal loss and
you know, the loss of those dreams and hopes that
we had with Matt and Sean, but is just that
general feeling that we're in our thirties and we just
(09:56):
genuinely didn't even imagine that this is how we would be.
So I guess, you know, the fairy tale is married
by a house, have kids, and just live this li
happy life. But instead we are now in a completely
different situation, and I guess for us it's lost, But
for others it might be a different job that they've
changed from, or you know, any lemon that gets thrown
their way. But I think that's another feeling of loss,
(10:18):
is not just the actual person, but just that what
we envisaged our life to be.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
It's like that expectation verst reality concept. No, it's a
tough pill to swallow knowing that your life isn't going
to play out the way you used to.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Or that it's also like different to how your friends'
lives are playing out with you know, there's friends that
do have the family and are doing the family things together.
So I think there's also that comparison of what we
dreamed of, you know, even as a little girl, like
I dreamed of, you know, this getting married and having
a family. So there's that loss, but also the comparison
(10:54):
and seeing what other families have that you don't.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
How do you deal with that on a day to
day basis that expectation vers reality.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I find it hard because, particularly with social media, it's
really in your face that everyone lives this fabulous life
and it's the highlights real and everyone's happy, and that's difficult.
But also the reality is is I'm a different person
now as well because of it. So not only have
I lost what I thought I would be, but I've
also lost myself in the process, and I'm trying to
(11:23):
find myself. But family and friends are moving on with
their life. So I'm a different person in my own world.
I'm in a stage of evolving and changing as an individual.
But it's difficult to see other people around you, and
not just necessarily close people, but just yeah, the highlight's
real that everyone's happy and loving life.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah. I think for me, one of our big things
Sean and I was we love to travel. And it
was like, okay, how am I going to want to
afford all these holidays that we used to do so,
you know, our spontaneous safari trips in Africa and our
snowboarding holidays. Was like, okay, I'm going to rain this
in a little bit. But it was accepting that they
can look a bit different. We can still do the travel,
but it has to be a bit different. Sean was
(12:06):
always like, I want Max on a snowboard by I
managed to get him on a snowboard by three, you know,
so I had to see that as like a little win.
You know, I did it. I managed to. He's now
been on a snowboard twice and he's only just turned six,
which is pretty pretty good. It's more, you know, the
weekend adventures that we used to do, Sean and I
and Max when he was a baby. But it's more
now what can I actually do on my own? You know,
(12:28):
I can't do little weekends away all the time. But
I've made a note on my phone of family days out.
So every weekend We'll pick a little activity and you
name it, I've done it.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I think you are really good at that, and not
letting the heaviness or the burden of Okay, I don't
have as much money to do the elaborate travel that
we used to, or can't just go away for the
weekend easily because I've now got a child, but you
don't let that stop you, and you do get out
and about and do things. That is also a part
(12:58):
of the independence to prove to ourselves that we are capable.
I've definitely grabbed the kids and we've gone out and
had a family venture. And it's hard, like it's a
lot of work to find the motivation to do that,
except that it can't be as expensive as maybe we
would have done. So there's definitely looking more at say
free activities or low cost activities, which you know are
obviously great. There's a lot of amazing opportunities out there,
(13:21):
but it's also not what we would have done, you know,
if Matt was here, So that's definitely difficult. However, it
is making the most of that and still getting out
to enjoy that family time to create those memories. That's
part of that independence as well. Like I find myself
often doing things. I'm like, jeez, that was a lot
of work. I get home and I'm absolutely exhausted, but
(13:42):
it's proving to myself that I can do it as well.
Even though it's hard, it's so worth it. But the independence,
I think we become so hyper independent as well, and
we definitely push people away and block as a coping strategy.
But also I think I do it almost to protect
our family unit. I want our kids to also know
that this is our core family. And yes, they've obviously
(14:04):
got extended family, but it's also really important to me
that they know who the family is. So that has
also been a reason why I've been quite independent, is
to really create that from their young age.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I think this whole hype independence it's another way to
cope with uncertainty. No if I know my routine like
you do, if I only rely on myself, then I
know the outcome. If I let someone in, what will
that outcome be? I think it's another way to prevent
disappointment and in some ways almost prevent rejection. We'll obviously
(14:37):
probably touch on this more another episode, but letting people
into your life, I guess romantically after losing a partner
and the hype independence that comes into play there, like
I think I'm going to scape your away for the
rest of my life. It will take a very special
person to bring down the walls again and that hyper
independence that I now live in.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I agree, and I think you you know the word
that you use, rejection, because we have already experienced the
worst possible type of loss, and so there's a fear
that we're going to lose something again because we had
the most amazing person in our life that brought so
much love and joy in our children as well, and
then it got taken away from us. So I definitely
(15:17):
feel this sense of rejection or fear of loss again.
So it's like I don't want to let people in
because if something good happens, I could lose it. And
I know that People say, oh, you know, that's it's
such a small chance, and like, you can't live life
like that. But there is still that underlying trauma. I
suppose that definitely plays into it. But you think you're
going to scare people off forever?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, I'm going to be that old lady with like
twelve cats. That's my future?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Is that? Because that is so prominent in your mind though,
that you don't want to let people in.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Like, I think it's more the awareness now that I
know what this concept is and you know, tying that
in with the autopilot, like, yeah, I think it's probably
time in my life now to go and jump out
of my comfort zone and change the routine a little bit.
And I'm not sure what that looks like yet, but
i think I'm now very aware of it, and I
think it's that awareness, and I think that is how
(16:09):
you get out of this pattern, you know. I think
it's how you get back out of this hyper independent
mode that you're living in is being aware of it
and talking about it. And probably for me, it's going
to be letting people into my life in different ways,
one thing at a time.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Do you think you've started that even with like your
close like family and friends, to start allowing them back
in or is that still a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I think it's still a work in progress. I think
for me, I'm now in this stage of recognition, like
I recognize it, you know, I'm very aware of it now,
and it's there's things that I can do now to
help it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I think it's so hard because there is times, like anything,
whatever the lemon is, whether it's loss or changes in
your life. Like of course, there are times when we
need to come together as family, friends, community and support
each other and help out. And then there's also times
when you do need to rEFInd that inner confidence and
spend time with yourself to work through your own in processing.
(17:06):
Like I know, initially I had help in the house
twenty four to seven for the first two years that
their babies were born, and that was necessary, and it
was also suffocating. I didn't have time to grieve because
there was always someone in my house. I didn't have
time to even start the thoughts and processing because of
(17:27):
the demands as well of being a new mum three newborns.
But now I've been able to spend some of that
time to create that independence and find myself as an
adult and as a mother and as a widow, and
to start rebuilding that confidence and reclaiming I suppose that
that confidence and starting to really work through like my
(17:51):
inner story and the inner narrative of what I've been
through and not just in the last few years. But
I guess as a person generally speaking, and why do
we hold the beliefs that we do and why do
we do or don't do certain things, And a lot
of my actions are trauma based and that's where a
lot of my independence has come from. That, Yeah, I
(18:12):
do or don't do certain things too as that protection,
like you're saying, and to retain that control, because I
think we've both learned that there is so much that
is out of our control. So if there is one
thing to control and to provide us with that stability
and comfort, we're going to latch on. And it's hard
to let go and to know that that's not necessarily
(18:32):
always healthy, but that's also where we're at in that
journey as well and finding ourselves again.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I think it's also important to be able to say no.
I think with the research I've been doing into this,
it's delegating responsibilities and building on the relationships, but it's
also recognizing the relationships that are not serving you. And
I think this is one thing maybe I started doing
a while ago, is I really pulled back from relationships
that weren't serving me. Whether that was friendships or colleagues,
(19:02):
or you know, if they weren't serving me. I don't
know if it was a hyper independence tactic, you know,
let's just strip away from everybody. But it's also a
way to strengthen the relationships that are good and move
away from the people who might disappoint you down the track.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Was that met with resistance.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, but I think it was gradual. It wasn't like
we're not friends anymore. It was more of a I
recognize that maybe they weren't giving me anything in return,
and they weren't helping the situation. And if I'm going
to get out of this bubble, I need to rely
on people and actually find who my core circle of
people are. And I think as you get older, you
realize that that circle around you doesn't have to be
(19:43):
hundreds of people. You know, you don't have to have
a core group of lots and lots of friends. You'd
have to have a core group of people who are
there for you, who you trust them, who will support you,
who have your back. And I think that's okay. And
I think that's another thing that I've now recognized, is
who those people are.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, it's so hard, you know, you definitely lose people
through this proton People move on with their life. Some
people can't handle it. It's too much. There's change for
everyone involved, and I think it impacts people in different
ways and in unique ways. And you know, there's sort
of saying grief brings out the best and the worst
in people, and it's difficult, it's delicate, but certainly there's
(20:23):
no right or wrong, and I like I don't get
it right all the time either, you know, in terms
of showing up in those friendships or whatever, but like,
I genuinely do my best, and I think for me,
I've also found that there's times when I actually just
have not had the capacity to support others. And yes,
everyone's going through their own stuff, but all of my physical,
(20:46):
mental and emotional capacity was like had to be on
myself and our kids, and I actually couldn't give anymore.
So that was where I was at. But certainly around
the like knowing that as individuals we have changed, but
the people around us have changed too, And knowing that
that relationship is not it's not what it used to
be and it will never return. That's devastating. I find
(21:07):
that so hard to know that there are people in
my life who I adore, that that relationship will never
be the same, and I don't know that I've I
think I've still got some work to do on that,
because it's yeah, it's processing to know that, like you
can't get it back, and it's tricky for me because
like those people are still here. But you know, we've
(21:27):
gone through change where we've sort of tried to identify
our own independence, but the relationships and like you say,
you're now sort of at a point where you're able
to really move away from those people and acknowledge where
it's not working.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
It's crazy how this hype independence is just another layer
that comes from trauma and loss and lemons in life.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I think the other thing with hyperindependence is initially you
do need to be independent because you need to do
some soul searching or whatever term you want to use
in self awareness. But I think that can be really
difficult in the immediate stages of grief. You know, you
sort of mentioned that sometimes you feel like you can't
rely on other people but yourself. Did you feel that
(22:08):
from the beginning or has that now been something that's
come up lately.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
No, I think that was something that came up in
the beginning. It's more like, okay, and I guess it
was probably stemmed back from when Sean got sick. It's
like Okay, I'm now the family unit. I have to
look after Sean, I have to look after Maxwell, and
I have to look after myself. And I think the
autopilot probably started during his cancer diagnosis. You know, I
don't have any choice. I can't just crumble into a
(22:34):
million pieces. I have to keep going, and you know,
he's the one fighting for his life and I have
this newborn baby, and I just have to keep going.
So I think the autopilot started from then. But I
think I was like, Okay, they rely on me now,
and I think that's where it probably started. And I
don't think that reliance of me and taking on all
the responsibility has gone away since that point.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Did you ever feel that you needed to be both
mum and dad.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I think every day I feel like I have to
be mum and dad. And I think that's to me
why the parenting top and when people start prodding into that,
it's such a trigger, because parenting Maxwell now is like
my why, it's my purpose. It's the reason why I
get up every day, you know, And it's the one
good thing I guess that's come out of this is
I have a little piece of Shawn with me every day.
(23:20):
You know, which is so special, so I do. I
grab onto that with both hands and I won't let
that go, and I don't think I can ever rely
on anybody else to put on that hat.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, I guess not to like replace Sean either in
that sense, right, and that it's yeah, I take that
really seriously in that I would agree that that is
quite triggering for me. Even in those early days. I remember,
you know, the newborns, like all three waking up multiple
times a night, and despite having help around the clock,
(23:51):
you know, I would go in, you know, I was
doing everything I wanted to change every nappy, which in
hindsight like it's exhausting. I was doing it all, but
for me it was such a I think I was
trying to prove myself that I was capable and that
I was okay, but also to fill the shoes off
Matt because if he was here, like we would have
(24:12):
been doing that together, and so I didn't want anyone
else almost taking his place in that, And so I
felt a lot of pressure to be that person, particularly overnights.
There were definitely nights when I didn't and I did
have help to support me to get some sleep, which
I desperately needed, but I took it. I've put a
lot of pressure on myself to be that person, and
(24:32):
I know a lot of people kept saying, you know,
we're here to help, like you don't have to do
it all. But I couldn't. I just didn't believe it
and I didn't want to because it meant accepting the
pain that Matt wasn't there. You know, it sounds a
bit silly, but like I knew he wasn't there, but
I didn't want to accept that he wasn't there. That
makes sense. So I didn't want to allow someone to
go into their room at night or you know, take
(24:54):
over a role that was the role of a parent.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Do you think you'll ever be able to overcome that?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Nope. I know that I put a lot of pressure
on myself to do that wasn't necessarily fair, and I
know there were people that wanted to help and I couldn't.
I think it's with so much sadness because I know
that Matt would have wanted to do it, and that
we would have done it together, so we would have
(25:21):
tagged teams in the night, and it's like, okay, well
you know, Matt, you're working tomorrow, so like I'll get
up or Matt knows I've had, you know, a tough day,
so he's like, you know, you get some rest. And
even that's another example, I don't get the opportunity to
sleep in. Other moms say things like, oh, you know,
I was feeling a bit tired, so my husband just
put the kid in the in the prem and went
(25:42):
off for a walk so I could have a sleep
in for an hour. I went, huh, that must be nice.
And I would never say that out loud, but internally
and of course that mother deserves that rest and et cetera.
So like no hard feelings. And at the same time
that was like deeply painful because I'm like, I'm so
exhausted and that's a luxury and the fact that not
(26:04):
only are you getting that rest. I think what I
also found difficult with that moment was your child is
having that bond with their dad, and so there are
always I feel like everything is almost like a double
edged sword, Like it's the sadness of not having that
opportunity to create those family bonds, and then it's the
(26:26):
exhaustion of the load. Like I talk a lot about
the mental load, you know, realistically, there is the financial
pressure that is scary. I find that really terrifying of
the providing and also into the future, that's a lot
to carry.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
So touching on this subject of hyper independence, we talk
about how it's a result of trauma and you know,
there is no real cure to it, and it's about
building those relationships and it takes time and you've got
to be aware of it and stopping living in the
auto pilot. I guess what do you think is going
to be next for you?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I think it's all about that inner work for me
and continuing to prioritize that. So I do see a
psychologis regularly. I'm also spending more time journaling and just
working through my own thoughts. And also I would say
a part of it is getting back out and making
like adult friendships. Again that's really hard, and I've been
(27:20):
really grateful for, you know, a circle of friends who've
been with me, you know, through the thick of it
and support me. But also there is the reality of
going out and getting new friends. And you know, as
you go into different stages of your life. You know,
the kids are in daycare and that comes with kids'
parties and now I'm going to kids' birthday parties, so
that's a different circle. So that is really hard, and
I didn't expect that. I've also tried to reconnect with friends.
(27:45):
I know that I've gone off the grid in recent
years because I have been beyond exhausted as well, and
I haven't had the energy to socialize. I'm working really
hard to socialize again. And it sounds silly, but it
has been emotionally difficult for me to even leave the house,
Like I had huge trauma and anxiety with even leaving
the house, leaving the kids with my family and babysitters,
(28:07):
So that has been something that I've had to work through.
So I would say it's a mix of both professional
support and it's courage. It's like showing up and doing
like little bits and going oh, I got out of
the house and I went and had a coffee with
a friend. And you know, pre all of this, I
would have never expected that going out to have a
coffee with a friend would have been hard. I remember
(28:28):
the first day that I decided to go out and
do something, already crying thinking about the trauma. But it
took me twenty minutes to get from the door like
the internal garage door to the actual garage door, so
walking like the length of a car. It took me
that long, and the trauma that I had, I remember,
(28:48):
and I remember my dad saying, like, you can do this.
And I never expected that I would need my dad
to say that I could walk the length of a
car and that I could actually leave the house. So
I remember that that it was just such a I
would have never even thought about it previously, but that
was huge, and I remember coming back from that event
(29:08):
and I just crumbled. So I think for me, it's
also been these little milestones, and that's what people don't see.
I keep that very private, and I've never really like
I think people know I've been struggling, but they probably
don't know the extent because I've been so paranoid to
show them that. And I want to be shown as
capable and I want them to see happy, but I
think the reality is far from that. And so it's
(29:30):
continual work, I would say, and I'm now at a
point where I can do it, but it doesn't mean
it's easy either.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I think working through this hype independence, it will just
take time.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I agree, you don't get to a point and say yep,
tick done, I've achieved that, or I've outgrown that phase.
I think there are always elements, and particularly in these
last few years, we have had to become independent, so
we've had to learn either new skills or other things.
It's now part of us, though I would say the
independence because this lemon that's been thrown at us we
had to learn, and we've learned some new skills, and
(30:00):
some of them have been really great skills that I
probably needed to learn anyway. So I don't think it's
it all like dooming gloom like. Obviously, it's hard and
it's certainly not the way we expected it to be,
but I would also say that it does bring almost
like new opportunities. So I think it's just a part
of us now, and I don't think that we need
to resolve it or remove it from our life, but
(30:22):
probably allow people in because I think you and I
are the same, like we want to have these people
in our life. It's not as if we want to
shut it off and just be on our own, like
that's not what we want, but it's a journey to
get there.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I think it's about recognizing these patterns and understanding that
it's okay to reach out for help, but it's also
okay to feel like you can't rely on anybody and
you have to do everything yourself. It's knowing that hyper
independence is a result of trauma, and it's okay. I
think this hyper independence thing is scary, but I think
there is a silver lining in a way. You know.
I look at some of my friends and the things
(30:55):
that the hats that they wear versus the hats that
I wear, you know, And you know, I'm proud to
say that I can't fix a car tire, not up
to that yet place a car tire, But you know,
I can paint my house, and I can set up
all my bills, and I can raise a child on
my own and I'm doing a bloody good job. And
(31:17):
I can work full time while I'm doing that, and
there's so many things that I can do. I can
maintain a garden and I can you know, manage a home,
and these are things that, yes, I could do before,
but you were dependent with somebody else. And it's a
proud feeling in a way to see a silver lining
and be like I can do this.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I'm good, absolutely, Like I think it's been helpful to
acknowledge yep, Okay, this independence has been thrust upon me,
but like I can do it. And it doesn't mean
it hasn't been hard or it hasn't been emotional, because
of course it has been because of the circumstances. And
we now get to show our kids like you are capable,
like you can do this and you will figure it out.
(31:57):
And that's probably the best role model ever, right to
do it well and to do it with that positive
And I think that's what you and I really strive for,
is to show that we can make something good. You know,
yes we've been throwing lemons, but we can make it
something good. That's I think a lesson that I really
want our kids to show. You know, certainly having both
(32:17):
a mix of girls and boys is you know, those
stereotypes like in our household, we don't have boy jobs
and girl jobs, you know, as maybe some other families do.
But in time the kids will be chipping in as well,
and it is a family unit. So I think that's
a really great opportunity that we can break down some
of those stigmas or expectations or models of what a
(32:42):
family should be and what the jobs that mum should
do versus dad. It's like, well, no, we actually just
all band together and figure it out. I came across
something interesting on Instagram about this exact topic around showing
kids that, you know, if something just needs to be
done around the house, like being that proactive and doing it.
And I really hope that our kids now will be
able to see that maybe a little clearer than others,
(33:04):
to go, oh yeah, I can help mum, and I
can ship in. You know, I am a member of
the household because they're a valued member. And I think
that's another silver lining as well, is to really show
that value to them, and.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
We can still have dreams and we can still have goals.
They just might look a little different now, and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
I think what I really love about us as well
is that we are both so committed to living out
some of those traditions and the dreams that we shared,
and we're also creating new dreams with our children because
they are, you know, these innocent little people and they
crack us up because they're so funny. But they also
they will have their own dreams and we get to
(33:42):
facilitate that. So I think that's certainly a lesson and
really as independent as we probably think we are, we're
probably not because we've got these little kids that are
having demands from us as well.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
And I'm sorry, Sean, but Max might not be a
professional snowboarder or golfer like he dreamed, but I'm trying.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
So we really hope that this conversation resonates with people.
I think we've touched on quite a lot, but also
mainly to I guess, encourage you to reflect on your experiences,
to acknowledge the independence and remember to tap into two
people to support you, but also to acknowledge the silver lining.
So despite the lemon that gets thrown your way, there
(34:22):
is still good of it. And it doesn't mean that
it's not tricky or difficult to navigate, but it's possible
and you can be that role model or whatever that
looks like in your life. If you loved this episode,
please don't keep it a secret, Share it with a
friend on social media and tag us at Just Life
and Lemons. Please click the follow button and leave us
a review. Just Life and Lemons is not a mental
(34:45):
health service or a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment,
or assessment. Any conversations in this podcast are general in nature.
If you are struggling, please see a healthcare professional or
call Lifeline on one three, one four
Apodjay production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Please note that this conversation is a big one. Well,
we're discussing grief, loss and mental health. If this isn't
the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join us
on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just Life
and Lemons. I'm Ash and I'm Kayla. This podcast is
all about embracing life's lemons and making them into something beautiful.
We've had a fair few lemons thrown it away, but
(00:33):
we're not letting that stop us.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Today. We're diving into a topic that many of us
can relate to hyperindependence. As a result of trauma, This
mindset often leads to shutting others out and coping in
ways that might not be healthy.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So, Kayla, we often talk about the term autopilot. What
does that mean for you?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
My whole life for the last five years has been
on autopilot. I think, without even realizing it. You know,
you have milestone after milestone, you work, you come home,
you do the grind, and do you see your friends,
you see your family? You know, and then before you
know it, it's September October and a whole nother year's
nearly finished. And I think I've very much been living
(01:14):
on autopilot as a coping mechanism the last five years.
You know, we touched on our first episode about the
stages of grieving and you know, that cycle, and we
touched a little bit on you know, the whole depression
phase and looking at it now, you know, I think
that really only hit me probably of maybe March this year,
where that autopilot and novelty of that has worn off completely,
(01:38):
and you know, you're so busy that the adrenalines kind
of finished now, you know, and the autopilot is coming
to an end, and that's when the reality of your
life just sets in. It just hits you like a
ton of bricks. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And I know that you've spoken a lot about as well,
when you're in that autopilot phase that you feel almost
emotionless during that completely.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I think I have described myself the last five years
as basically like I'm made of concrete. I don't show
my feelings. I don't talk about my feelings, which is
not a good thing. I don't like people in I
don't like people helping me. I don't ask for help
as much as I can avoid it. I feel like
anything people say to me, especially about Maxwell or about parenting.
(02:23):
I just shut it down. I just cannot cope with it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
So the autopilot is a coping strategy ipposed to a
state that you want to be in.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I don't think it's a healthy state to be in.
But I think after you know, a lemon in life
or you know, losing your partner, I think it's a
coping strategy. And it's only now five years on that
I actually can reflect on it has been a coping strategy.
And you know, people say to you, how are you,
you know, managing, how are you working full time? How
are you raising your son? How are you You're okay?
(02:54):
Like you seem so fine, and it's like, well, one
I've had to be fine, and two I have been
living a completely on autopilot.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And so you think that part of that has then
been unintentionally blocking people out. Like you say that you don't,
you know, talk to people, and you sort of shut
that down.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah. I mean I came across this. I didn't know
what hype independence was and I actually saw it, I
think maybe on Instagram or something, and I looked into
it and I was like, wow, that is me. I'm
blocking people out I'm stopping evolving relationships being so independent.
It's hard to explain, but I now realize that this
whole hype independencing is me to a t.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think for me, I really agree with what you're saying,
and I also feel that I'm almost trying to convince
myself I'm okay when I actually know I'm not. So
I am feeling like I'm struggling. So I'm feeling, you know,
elements of the realities is hard, you know, to continue
on after loss and to keep showing up and putting
(03:53):
on the brape face like it's exhausting. So I feel
like for me there's that element as well. It's like
I'm almost trying to convince myself. I explain a lot
actually that I feel like I'm vis here, but that
I'm pretty vacant in my own head at times because
I'm literally just all of my energy goes into showing up.
And that's really that resilience that we talk a lot about.
(04:14):
But you know, I think you kind of keep insisting
that you're fine, but then over time you realize that
it's like far from the truth and you need to
get to a point of accepting that and.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
It's very much a defense mechanism. I think blocking people
out and not asking for help it's because you feel
like you're admitting to weakness. You're admitting that your life
has changed and you no longer can do the things
that maybe you used to do a lot easier with
that person by your side. So I think it's a
coping mechanism for me, where I'm like, I'm okay, I
can do it, I can wear both hats, I'm fine,
I'm fine, you.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Know, yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing that
I often feel is, you know, I have received so
much help and support, which often well, certainly in the
initial days, was necessary when I was in that real
state of survival, but I don't want to be a
burden to other people. So even now when people are
a help point, no, it's okay, But in reality, I like,
(05:06):
I need the help and it would be a huge help.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Have you ever felt that completely? You don't want to
feel like your problems are someone else's problems when everybody
else is dealing with their own stuff. I mean, I
don't know about you, but I constantly hear myself saying
it's easier if I do it myself. I don't need
a man. I'm a strong, independent woman, and I think
it's because I just hate relying on people. Maybe it's
(05:28):
to be let down if you don't ask for help,
you won't be let down if someone can't deliver. You know,
the expectations are low. I expect it from myself.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Is that because of the other person or is it
because of you? Like that internal dialogue.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I think it's it's more of I don't want to
let anybody else in. You know, it should be shown
by my side helping out, but it's not. It's me now,
and I think it's just a coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I definitely relate to that because I've found myself not
necessarily in the practical help, but certainly from probably more
of an emotional stage. There's definitely conversations that I've not had,
or a level of detail that I have not shared
with people because I actually don't want their response. And
it's not that I don't appreciate that person or their opinion.
(06:18):
I guess I'm so desperate to just hear Matt's response.
Like I the conversation I've been having with Matt and
I would have been having it, you know, whether it
be about the kids, or about just like how my
day at work was. Whatever the content of the conversation,
I don't want anyone else to reply, because I just
want Matt's reply, and I know that whoever I'm talking
(06:38):
to they may not even have the same view as Matt.
They might instead of maybe agreeing with me or saying
oh I would do it this way, They're going to
say something different, and I don't want that response, so
then I just don't tell them. So then I just
shut out the conversation entirely. And then I guess for me,
it's like, yeah, I absolutely hold back that emotional support
for myself, and it, you know, probably sounds crazy that
(07:00):
I just want to hear Matt's reply because obviously he's
not here to give that. So then I find that
that's how I shall down really more of that emotional state.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I find I get really snappy when people provide me feedback,
which I think is another element of hype independence when
people it's really a trigger for me when people talk
about parenting and Maxwell in particular, I think because I'm
living on autopilot and you're wearing both the hats of
mum and dad and you're working and doing everything. And
(07:28):
for me, when people start talking about Maxwell, I see
it as I'm not doing okay, I'm not coping, you know,
I'm not maybe doing things well. And I think, out
of this whole situation, parenting Maxwell is like the thing
that keeps me going. It's the thing I know that
I'm really good at. Again, it's not a good thing,
but it falls under this hyper independence bracket. Is getting
(07:49):
really snappy and defensive. Defensive mode when people talk about.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Max, as when they're talking about how you're parenting him.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
More about how I'm parenting him, or they give examples,
or it's like have you done this with him lately?
And has he had this? And have you bought this?
And you know, it's that can be so minor, but
it just is such a trigger.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, And I guess certainly in the sense of the
decisions that you're making, because something I've struggled with is
that I am now making decisions about things that Matt
and I didn't get the opportunity to talk about, or
even the conversation. We didn't get to finish it, so
we might have had some ideas, but the conversation. So
now it's on me, and there's a lot of I
feel a lot of pressure to make those decisions on
(08:29):
my own.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I think there's also that dependence on trying to live out,
you know, the dreams that you once had with somebody
as well and try you're still trying to do all
the family holidays you'd planned, and you're still trying to
follow the same routine that you once had and do
all the fun weekend adventures that you once had, and
I think there's this pressure to keep all that going.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, that's a huge one for me, the pressure for
both now and into the future. And that could be anything,
like you say, it's travel or holidays, experiences that we
thought we'd have, but also just the general experiencing of
parenting our children together as a family, which is now
not true. So like I feel like I still need
to live out those dreams because I'm still here with
(09:13):
our children. So I just can't explain how hard that feels, like,
for example, traveling, you know, and dreams that we had
of travel, but it's now on a single income, we
just don't have those luxuries, and then doing all of
the planning, like everything is now on our shoulders. So
I guess for me. When I lost Matt, I also
lost our future and what our family unit was going
(09:34):
to be, so not just the relationship and the marriage,
but also the family dynamic and the family unit and
the dreams that we had for that. I think another
pressure is not just in our own personal loss and
you know, the loss of those dreams and hopes that
we had with Matt and Sean, but is just that
general feeling that we're in our thirties and we just
(09:56):
genuinely didn't even imagine that this is how we would be.
So I guess, you know, the fairy tale is married
by a house, have kids, and just live this li
happy life. But instead we are now in a completely
different situation, and I guess for us it's lost, But
for others it might be a different job that they've
changed from, or you know, any lemon that gets thrown
their way. But I think that's another feeling of loss,
(10:18):
is not just the actual person, but just that what
we envisaged our life to be.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
It's like that expectation verst reality concept. No, it's a
tough pill to swallow knowing that your life isn't going
to play out the way you used to.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Or that it's also like different to how your friends'
lives are playing out with you know, there's friends that
do have the family and are doing the family things together.
So I think there's also that comparison of what we
dreamed of, you know, even as a little girl, like
I dreamed of, you know, this getting married and having
a family. So there's that loss, but also the comparison
(10:54):
and seeing what other families have that you don't.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
How do you deal with that on a day to
day basis that expectation vers reality.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I find it hard because, particularly with social media, it's
really in your face that everyone lives this fabulous life
and it's the highlights real and everyone's happy, and that's difficult.
But also the reality is is I'm a different person
now as well because of it. So not only have
I lost what I thought I would be, but I've
also lost myself in the process, and I'm trying to
(11:23):
find myself. But family and friends are moving on with
their life. So I'm a different person in my own world.
I'm in a stage of evolving and changing as an individual.
But it's difficult to see other people around you, and
not just necessarily close people, but just yeah, the highlight's
real that everyone's happy and loving life.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah. I think for me, one of our big things
Sean and I was we love to travel. And it
was like, okay, how am I going to want to
afford all these holidays that we used to do so,
you know, our spontaneous safari trips in Africa and our
snowboarding holidays. Was like, okay, I'm going to rain this
in a little bit. But it was accepting that they
can look a bit different. We can still do the travel,
but it has to be a bit different. Sean was
(12:06):
always like, I want Max on a snowboard by I
managed to get him on a snowboard by three, you know,
so I had to see that as like a little win.
You know, I did it. I managed to. He's now
been on a snowboard twice and he's only just turned six,
which is pretty pretty good. It's more, you know, the
weekend adventures that we used to do, Sean and I
and Max when he was a baby. But it's more
now what can I actually do on my own? You know,
(12:28):
I can't do little weekends away all the time. But
I've made a note on my phone of family days out.
So every weekend We'll pick a little activity and you
name it, I've done it.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I think you are really good at that, and not
letting the heaviness or the burden of Okay, I don't
have as much money to do the elaborate travel that
we used to, or can't just go away for the
weekend easily because I've now got a child, but you
don't let that stop you, and you do get out
and about and do things. That is also a part
(12:58):
of the independence to prove to ourselves that we are capable.
I've definitely grabbed the kids and we've gone out and
had a family venture. And it's hard, like it's a
lot of work to find the motivation to do that,
except that it can't be as expensive as maybe we
would have done. So there's definitely looking more at say
free activities or low cost activities, which you know are
obviously great. There's a lot of amazing opportunities out there,
(13:21):
but it's also not what we would have done, you know,
if Matt was here, So that's definitely difficult. However, it
is making the most of that and still getting out
to enjoy that family time to create those memories. That's
part of that independence as well. Like I find myself
often doing things. I'm like, jeez, that was a lot
of work. I get home and I'm absolutely exhausted, but
(13:42):
it's proving to myself that I can do it as well.
Even though it's hard, it's so worth it. But the independence,
I think we become so hyper independent as well, and
we definitely push people away and block as a coping strategy.
But also I think I do it almost to protect
our family unit. I want our kids to also know
that this is our core family. And yes, they've obviously
(14:04):
got extended family, but it's also really important to me
that they know who the family is. So that has
also been a reason why I've been quite independent, is
to really create that from their young age.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I think this whole hype independence it's another way to
cope with uncertainty. No if I know my routine like
you do, if I only rely on myself, then I
know the outcome. If I let someone in, what will
that outcome be? I think it's another way to prevent
disappointment and in some ways almost prevent rejection. We'll obviously
(14:37):
probably touch on this more another episode, but letting people
into your life, I guess romantically after losing a partner
and the hype independence that comes into play there, like
I think I'm going to scape your away for the
rest of my life. It will take a very special
person to bring down the walls again and that hyper
independence that I now live in.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I agree, and I think you you know the word
that you use, rejection, because we have already experienced the
worst possible type of loss, and so there's a fear
that we're going to lose something again because we had
the most amazing person in our life that brought so
much love and joy in our children as well, and
then it got taken away from us. So I definitely
(15:17):
feel this sense of rejection or fear of loss again.
So it's like I don't want to let people in
because if something good happens, I could lose it. And
I know that People say, oh, you know, that's it's
such a small chance, and like, you can't live life
like that. But there is still that underlying trauma. I
suppose that definitely plays into it. But you think you're
going to scare people off forever?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, I'm going to be that old lady with like
twelve cats. That's my future?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Is that? Because that is so prominent in your mind though,
that you don't want to let people in.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Like, I think it's more the awareness now that I
know what this concept is and you know, tying that
in with the autopilot, like, yeah, I think it's probably
time in my life now to go and jump out
of my comfort zone and change the routine a little bit.
And I'm not sure what that looks like yet, but
i think I'm now very aware of it, and I
think it's that awareness, and I think that is how
(16:09):
you get out of this pattern, you know. I think
it's how you get back out of this hyper independent
mode that you're living in is being aware of it
and talking about it. And probably for me, it's going
to be letting people into my life in different ways,
one thing at a time.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Do you think you've started that even with like your
close like family and friends, to start allowing them back
in or is that still a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I think it's still a work in progress. I think
for me, I'm now in this stage of recognition, like
I recognize it, you know, I'm very aware of it now,
and it's there's things that I can do now to
help it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I think it's so hard because there is times, like anything,
whatever the lemon is, whether it's loss or changes in
your life. Like of course, there are times when we
need to come together as family, friends, community and support
each other and help out. And then there's also times
when you do need to rEFInd that inner confidence and
spend time with yourself to work through your own in processing.
(17:06):
Like I know, initially I had help in the house
twenty four to seven for the first two years that
their babies were born, and that was necessary, and it
was also suffocating. I didn't have time to grieve because
there was always someone in my house. I didn't have
time to even start the thoughts and processing because of
(17:27):
the demands as well of being a new mum three newborns.
But now I've been able to spend some of that
time to create that independence and find myself as an
adult and as a mother and as a widow, and
to start rebuilding that confidence and reclaiming I suppose that
that confidence and starting to really work through like my
(17:51):
inner story and the inner narrative of what I've been
through and not just in the last few years. But
I guess as a person generally speaking, and why do
we hold the beliefs that we do and why do
we do or don't do certain things, And a lot
of my actions are trauma based and that's where a
lot of my independence has come from. That, Yeah, I
(18:12):
do or don't do certain things too as that protection,
like you're saying, and to retain that control, because I
think we've both learned that there is so much that
is out of our control. So if there is one
thing to control and to provide us with that stability
and comfort, we're going to latch on. And it's hard
to let go and to know that that's not necessarily
(18:32):
always healthy, but that's also where we're at in that
journey as well and finding ourselves again.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I think it's also important to be able to say no.
I think with the research I've been doing into this,
it's delegating responsibilities and building on the relationships, but it's
also recognizing the relationships that are not serving you. And
I think this is one thing maybe I started doing
a while ago, is I really pulled back from relationships
that weren't serving me. Whether that was friendships or colleagues,
(19:02):
or you know, if they weren't serving me. I don't
know if it was a hyper independence tactic, you know,
let's just strip away from everybody. But it's also a
way to strengthen the relationships that are good and move
away from the people who might disappoint you down the track.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Was that met with resistance.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, but I think it was gradual. It wasn't like
we're not friends anymore. It was more of a I
recognize that maybe they weren't giving me anything in return,
and they weren't helping the situation. And if I'm going
to get out of this bubble, I need to rely
on people and actually find who my core circle of
people are. And I think as you get older, you
realize that that circle around you doesn't have to be
(19:43):
hundreds of people. You know, you don't have to have
a core group of lots and lots of friends. You'd
have to have a core group of people who are
there for you, who you trust them, who will support you,
who have your back. And I think that's okay. And
I think that's another thing that I've now recognized, is
who those people are.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, it's so hard, you know, you definitely lose people
through this proton People move on with their life. Some
people can't handle it. It's too much. There's change for
everyone involved, and I think it impacts people in different
ways and in unique ways. And you know, there's sort
of saying grief brings out the best and the worst
in people, and it's difficult, it's delicate, but certainly there's
(20:23):
no right or wrong, and I like I don't get
it right all the time either, you know, in terms
of showing up in those friendships or whatever, but like,
I genuinely do my best, and I think for me,
I've also found that there's times when I actually just
have not had the capacity to support others. And yes,
everyone's going through their own stuff, but all of my physical,
(20:46):
mental and emotional capacity was like had to be on
myself and our kids, and I actually couldn't give anymore.
So that was where I was at. But certainly around
the like knowing that as individuals we have changed, but
the people around us have changed too, And knowing that
that relationship is not it's not what it used to
be and it will never return. That's devastating. I find
(21:07):
that so hard to know that there are people in
my life who I adore, that that relationship will never
be the same, and I don't know that I've I
think I've still got some work to do on that,
because it's yeah, it's processing to know that, like you
can't get it back, and it's tricky for me because
like those people are still here. But you know, we've
(21:27):
gone through change where we've sort of tried to identify
our own independence, but the relationships and like you say,
you're now sort of at a point where you're able
to really move away from those people and acknowledge where
it's not working.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
It's crazy how this hype independence is just another layer
that comes from trauma and loss and lemons in life.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I think the other thing with hyperindependence is initially you
do need to be independent because you need to do
some soul searching or whatever term you want to use
in self awareness. But I think that can be really
difficult in the immediate stages of grief. You know, you
sort of mentioned that sometimes you feel like you can't
rely on other people but yourself. Did you feel that
(22:08):
from the beginning or has that now been something that's
come up lately.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
No, I think that was something that came up in
the beginning. It's more like, okay, and I guess it
was probably stemmed back from when Sean got sick. It's
like Okay, I'm now the family unit. I have to
look after Sean, I have to look after Maxwell, and
I have to look after myself. And I think the
autopilot probably started during his cancer diagnosis. You know, I
don't have any choice. I can't just crumble into a
(22:34):
million pieces. I have to keep going, and you know,
he's the one fighting for his life and I have
this newborn baby, and I just have to keep going.
So I think the autopilot started from then. But I
think I was like, Okay, they rely on me now,
and I think that's where it probably started. And I
don't think that reliance of me and taking on all
the responsibility has gone away since that point.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Did you ever feel that you needed to be both
mum and dad.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I think every day I feel like I have to
be mum and dad. And I think that's to me
why the parenting top and when people start prodding into that,
it's such a trigger, because parenting Maxwell now is like
my why, it's my purpose. It's the reason why I
get up every day, you know, And it's the one
good thing I guess that's come out of this is
I have a little piece of Shawn with me every day.
(23:20):
You know, which is so special, so I do. I
grab onto that with both hands and I won't let
that go, and I don't think I can ever rely
on anybody else to put on that hat.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, I guess not to like replace Sean either in
that sense, right, and that it's yeah, I take that
really seriously in that I would agree that that is
quite triggering for me. Even in those early days. I remember,
you know, the newborns, like all three waking up multiple
times a night, and despite having help around the clock,
(23:51):
you know, I would go in, you know, I was
doing everything I wanted to change every nappy, which in
hindsight like it's exhausting. I was doing it all, but
for me it was such a I think I was
trying to prove myself that I was capable and that
I was okay, but also to fill the shoes off
Matt because if he was here, like we would have
(24:12):
been doing that together, and so I didn't want anyone
else almost taking his place in that, And so I
felt a lot of pressure to be that person, particularly overnights.
There were definitely nights when I didn't and I did
have help to support me to get some sleep, which
I desperately needed, but I took it. I've put a
lot of pressure on myself to be that person, and
(24:32):
I know a lot of people kept saying, you know,
we're here to help, like you don't have to do
it all. But I couldn't. I just didn't believe it
and I didn't want to because it meant accepting the
pain that Matt wasn't there. You know, it sounds a
bit silly, but like I knew he wasn't there, but
I didn't want to accept that he wasn't there. That
makes sense. So I didn't want to allow someone to
go into their room at night or you know, take
(24:54):
over a role that was the role of a parent.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Do you think you'll ever be able to overcome that?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Nope. I know that I put a lot of pressure
on myself to do that wasn't necessarily fair, and I
know there were people that wanted to help and I couldn't.
I think it's with so much sadness because I know
that Matt would have wanted to do it, and that
we would have done it together, so we would have
(25:21):
tagged teams in the night, and it's like, okay, well
you know, Matt, you're working tomorrow, so like I'll get
up or Matt knows I've had, you know, a tough day,
so he's like, you know, you get some rest. And
even that's another example, I don't get the opportunity to
sleep in. Other moms say things like, oh, you know,
I was feeling a bit tired, so my husband just
put the kid in the in the prem and went
(25:42):
off for a walk so I could have a sleep
in for an hour. I went, huh, that must be nice.
And I would never say that out loud, but internally
and of course that mother deserves that rest and et cetera.
So like no hard feelings. And at the same time
that was like deeply painful because I'm like, I'm so
exhausted and that's a luxury and the fact that not
(26:04):
only are you getting that rest. I think what I
also found difficult with that moment was your child is
having that bond with their dad, and so there are
always I feel like everything is almost like a double
edged sword, Like it's the sadness of not having that
opportunity to create those family bonds, and then it's the
(26:26):
exhaustion of the load. Like I talk a lot about
the mental load, you know, realistically, there is the financial
pressure that is scary. I find that really terrifying of
the providing and also into the future, that's a lot
to carry.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
So touching on this subject of hyper independence, we talk
about how it's a result of trauma and you know,
there is no real cure to it, and it's about
building those relationships and it takes time and you've got
to be aware of it and stopping living in the
auto pilot. I guess what do you think is going
to be next for you?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I think it's all about that inner work for me
and continuing to prioritize that. So I do see a
psychologis regularly. I'm also spending more time journaling and just
working through my own thoughts. And also I would say
a part of it is getting back out and making
like adult friendships. Again that's really hard, and I've been
(27:20):
really grateful for, you know, a circle of friends who've
been with me, you know, through the thick of it
and support me. But also there is the reality of
going out and getting new friends. And you know, as
you go into different stages of your life. You know,
the kids are in daycare and that comes with kids'
parties and now I'm going to kids' birthday parties, so
that's a different circle. So that is really hard, and
I didn't expect that. I've also tried to reconnect with friends.
(27:45):
I know that I've gone off the grid in recent
years because I have been beyond exhausted as well, and
I haven't had the energy to socialize. I'm working really
hard to socialize again. And it sounds silly, but it
has been emotionally difficult for me to even leave the house,
Like I had huge trauma and anxiety with even leaving
the house, leaving the kids with my family and babysitters,
(28:07):
So that has been something that I've had to work through.
So I would say it's a mix of both professional
support and it's courage. It's like showing up and doing
like little bits and going oh, I got out of
the house and I went and had a coffee with
a friend. And you know, pre all of this, I
would have never expected that going out to have a
coffee with a friend would have been hard. I remember
(28:28):
the first day that I decided to go out and
do something, already crying thinking about the trauma. But it
took me twenty minutes to get from the door like
the internal garage door to the actual garage door, so
walking like the length of a car. It took me
that long, and the trauma that I had, I remember,
(28:48):
and I remember my dad saying, like, you can do this.
And I never expected that I would need my dad
to say that I could walk the length of a
car and that I could actually leave the house. So
I remember that that it was just such a I
would have never even thought about it previously, but that
was huge, and I remember coming back from that event
(29:08):
and I just crumbled. So I think for me, it's
also been these little milestones, and that's what people don't see.
I keep that very private, and I've never really like
I think people know I've been struggling, but they probably
don't know the extent because I've been so paranoid to
show them that. And I want to be shown as
capable and I want them to see happy, but I
think the reality is far from that. And so it's
(29:30):
continual work, I would say, and I'm now at a
point where I can do it, but it doesn't mean
it's easy either.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I think working through this hype independence, it will just
take time.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I agree, you don't get to a point and say yep,
tick done, I've achieved that, or I've outgrown that phase.
I think there are always elements, and particularly in these
last few years, we have had to become independent, so
we've had to learn either new skills or other things.
It's now part of us, though I would say the
independence because this lemon that's been thrown at us we
had to learn, and we've learned some new skills, and
(30:00):
some of them have been really great skills that I
probably needed to learn anyway. So I don't think it's
it all like dooming gloom like. Obviously, it's hard and
it's certainly not the way we expected it to be,
but I would also say that it does bring almost
like new opportunities. So I think it's just a part
of us now, and I don't think that we need
to resolve it or remove it from our life, but
(30:22):
probably allow people in because I think you and I
are the same, like we want to have these people
in our life. It's not as if we want to
shut it off and just be on our own, like
that's not what we want, but it's a journey to
get there.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I think it's about recognizing these patterns and understanding that
it's okay to reach out for help, but it's also
okay to feel like you can't rely on anybody and
you have to do everything yourself. It's knowing that hyper
independence is a result of trauma, and it's okay. I
think this hyper independence thing is scary, but I think
there is a silver lining in a way. You know.
I look at some of my friends and the things
(30:55):
that the hats that they wear versus the hats that
I wear, you know, And you know, I'm proud to
say that I can't fix a car tire, not up
to that yet place a car tire, But you know,
I can paint my house, and I can set up
all my bills, and I can raise a child on
my own and I'm doing a bloody good job. And
(31:17):
I can work full time while I'm doing that, and
there's so many things that I can do. I can
maintain a garden and I can you know, manage a home,
and these are things that, yes, I could do before,
but you were dependent with somebody else. And it's a
proud feeling in a way to see a silver lining
and be like I can do this.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I'm good, absolutely, Like I think it's been helpful to
acknowledge yep, Okay, this independence has been thrust upon me,
but like I can do it. And it doesn't mean
it hasn't been hard or it hasn't been emotional, because
of course it has been because of the circumstances. And
we now get to show our kids like you are capable,
like you can do this and you will figure it out.
(31:57):
And that's probably the best role model ever, right to
do it well and to do it with that positive
And I think that's what you and I really strive for,
is to show that we can make something good. You know,
yes we've been throwing lemons, but we can make it
something good. That's I think a lesson that I really
want our kids to show. You know, certainly having both
(32:17):
a mix of girls and boys is you know, those
stereotypes like in our household, we don't have boy jobs
and girl jobs, you know, as maybe some other families do.
But in time the kids will be chipping in as well,
and it is a family unit. So I think that's
a really great opportunity that we can break down some
of those stigmas or expectations or models of what a
(32:42):
family should be and what the jobs that mum should
do versus dad. It's like, well, no, we actually just
all band together and figure it out. I came across
something interesting on Instagram about this exact topic around showing
kids that, you know, if something just needs to be
done around the house, like being that proactive and doing it.
And I really hope that our kids now will be
able to see that maybe a little clearer than others,
(33:04):
to go, oh yeah, I can help mum, and I
can ship in. You know, I am a member of
the household because they're a valued member. And I think
that's another silver lining as well, is to really show
that value to them, and.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
We can still have dreams and we can still have goals.
They just might look a little different now, and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
I think what I really love about us as well
is that we are both so committed to living out
some of those traditions and the dreams that we shared,
and we're also creating new dreams with our children because
they are, you know, these innocent little people and they
crack us up because they're so funny. But they also
they will have their own dreams and we get to
(33:42):
facilitate that. So I think that's certainly a lesson and
really as independent as we probably think we are, we're
probably not because we've got these little kids that are
having demands from us as well.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
And I'm sorry, Sean, but Max might not be a
professional snowboarder or golfer like he dreamed, but I'm trying.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
So we really hope that this conversation resonates with people.
I think we've touched on quite a lot, but also
mainly to I guess, encourage you to reflect on your experiences,
to acknowledge the independence and remember to tap into two
people to support you, but also to acknowledge the silver lining.
So despite the lemon that gets thrown your way, there
(34:22):
is still good of it. And it doesn't mean that
it's not tricky or difficult to navigate, but it's possible
and you can be that role model or whatever that
looks like in your life. If you loved this episode,
please don't keep it a secret, Share it with a
friend on social media and tag us at Just Life
and Lemons. Please click the follow button and leave us
a review. Just Life and Lemons is not a mental
(34:45):
health service or a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment,
or assessment. Any conversations in this podcast are general in nature.
If you are struggling, please see a healthcare professional or
call Lifeline on one three, one four
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