February 17, 2025 • 33 mins
In Episode 3 of Just Life and Lemons, Ash and Kayla explore the familiar "stages of grief" model, offering their own insights on each stage. They discuss how the model doesn’t always align with everyone’s personal experience of loss and emphasise that it’s perfectly ok to challenge it. This thought-provoking conversation provides a fresh perspective on grief, advocating for a more open and nuanced approach to mourning and healing. Join them for an honest discussion on the complexities of grief and the space we all need to navigate it.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apogae production. Please note that this conversation is a big one.
Will be discussing grief, loss, and mental health. If this
isn't the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join
us on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just
Life and Lemons. I'm Ash and I'm Kayla. This podcast
(00:26):
is all about embracing life's lemons and making them into
something beautiful. We've had a fair few lemons thrown it
our way, but we're not letting that stop us.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome back to another episode of Just Life and Lemons. Today,
we're going to be chatting about the stages of grieving,
navigating loss in the early days, finding the right support network,
and all the unexpected things that come with grief.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now, this is something that we've spoken a little bit about.
If you google grief, this is what comes up. And
I think you and I both struggled with this because
we don't really agree with it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think it's a lot of shit. Can I say that?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, you can say that. So, according to Google, the
stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, and
there's actually been a sixth one ad it. In case
you didn't know, meaning, Okay, So the first one is denial,
and this is where we're really in that state of disbelief,
feeling numb, clinging to false reality, or just that shock factor.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I think for me, I think my denial kind of
happened when Shawn was diagnosed with cancer. I think my
denial of the whole process started back then, so we
were in denial when we were going through that journey,
and then I think when he passed, I don't think
I was in a denial. I think I had not
call it time to prepare, but the whole thing was denial.
(01:50):
I was living in an autopilot, probably denying the whole thing,
the whole.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Way, because yeah, your grief process started before the actual
loss of sure exactly. Look, I definitely felt the shock
because my loss was instantaneous, you know, and my whole
life changed in that split second of losing that. So
I remember being sort of physically here, but mentally I
(02:16):
was just not present, and really that feeling of numbness
carried for some time because I couldn't understand what had happened.
I was really in that state of shock. I feel
like as we go through these stages, though, I feel
like I felt all of them all the time. I
don't think they're just these stages. What about anger for you?
Did you feel that?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I don't really think anger was a part of it.
I think it's more you're kind of like, why did
this happen to him? Like? Why did this happen to
such a good person? You know? That was more of it.
They say that the good day young you know, you
hear that saying thrown out a lot, and it's like,
but why why did that happen? You know, he had
the whole world going for him. He was a great person.
(02:57):
He was great at his job, he was intelligent, he
was a great partner, he was a great son, he
was a great friend. Why, Like that was probably where
the anger came from. It's like, why him? Why did
he have to go?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So more confusion then as opposed to anger. Yeah, and
that like disbelief.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Possibly a little bit of anger in the fact that
why did he go through what he went through? Why
did we go through all of that pain and suffering?
And why did he go through all that pain and
suffering to pass away? That was probably the extent of
the anger. It's like because he was he was in
pain like he was in agony, and then you know,
we adjusted to his new body, and you know that
was pain for him, you know, But why that was
(03:35):
the anger that I felt in that situation.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, And I think anger for me is I don't
think I've felt it. I truly struggle to have met
and anger in the same sentence. I can't reconcile that.
Sure there's moments of like, how did this happen? But
that feels more shocked for me as opposed to anger
toward the situation. I just I really struggle with that emotion.
(03:59):
I don't feel like I'm an angry person. I've never
really related to that emotion anyway, and certainly in the
context of Matt, it just doesn't make sense to me.
I don't feel like I'm going to get to that point.
There's definitely part of me that if we look at this,
oh well, that's a stage of grief. So there's a
part of me that's going, oh shit, I haven't experienced
that yet. Does that mean it's building and that it's
going to be quite explosive when I do feel that anger?
(04:20):
You know, there's definitely been challenging times through the last
four years, and definitely, you know, frustration around different situations
or challenges, but not anger. I really struggle with that one,
and I don't think I've felt it. Part of me
worries that it might be building, but then there's also
part of me that feels like, well, it's been this
long and I haven't felt it, so I think I'm good.
(04:42):
I don't think I'm going to feel that. And like
I said, the big part for me is the association
between Matt and anger is just nothing. It doesn't resonate
with me at all. Depression is a big one. You know,
sadness from the loss, but also the sadness of the
impact on life, crying, sleep, isolation, overwhelm and loneliness. Is
that something that you've experienced.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I mean, I think it's the wrong choice of word
because I don't think I've ever been depressed. I think
I felt sadness and obviously heartbreak and readjustment, but I
don't think I've been depressed. And I think when Sean
passed away, I went into autopilot. I was so busy
(05:23):
I literally filled my calendar to the brim. I went
back to work the following week. Max went back to
daycare and we just kept going, and it was probably
only about six months ago that I kind of got tired.
I was like, I've been on autopilot, filling my days
to the brim, from the moment I wake up to
the moment I go to bed. I haven't allowed myself
(05:44):
to be depressed.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So that was your coping stress.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That's how I coped. I went straight back to work.
People like, what are you doing, Like, you're crazy, you
need to stop, you need to take time off, And
I'm like, but why I can't, Like, I can't sit
in my own thoughts. I can't sit in my house
and feel sadness. And the times that I have felt
sadness are those times at night when you know, Maxwell
goes to bed and you're sitting on the couch and
you're like, Okay, now I'm sad, and you know what,
(06:07):
I go put myself to bed. I can't sit here.
So I haven't allowed myself to be in that stage
of depression that people say that you're going to be in.
You know it kind of in a way, it makes me,
you feel like a bad person. It's like, is it
bad that I lost the love of my life and
I haven't been depressed I've been sad and I'm heartbroken
and I will always be heartbroken. But yeah, I don't
(06:27):
completely agree with that phase.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And see I'm probably the opposite. I really did struggle
with the label. I went through all of that, you know,
the extreme sadness, the loneliness, which is I think something
that people would probably not realize that I was and
am still dealing with, because particularly when our little trio
(06:50):
were born, well, even after Matt's accident, there was an
influx of support and help, you know, family friends, colleagues
like incredible the love that I received to help me
get through that time, but particularly when the babies were born,
and it was a necessity for me to have twenty
four to seven help at home with the kids, and
(07:11):
I struggled with that because there was someone in my
face all the time, and that was a combination of family,
friends and even professional nannies because ultimately, it's me and
three babies and it's you know, I think on average
I would get three hours sleep night, and that was
for the first eighteen months. I'm sleep deprived, new mum
with triplets, grieving and all this help. Yes, it was helpful,
(07:34):
and it wasn't at the same time because I was,
you know, inundated with all these people around me, and
I sort of didn't realize it at the time. I
knew I was sad, and like, obviously I was, but
I didn't really know what it was. I just thought, well,
of course I'm going to be sad with all of
this going on. It wasn't until my psychologist was telling me, well, yeah, ash,
that's called depression. I couldn't connect with that label. I
(07:57):
struggled to accept. I suppose that I was depressed. I
could understand the why, but then I was also like,
but I've also got them most incredible thing. I've got
our babies, and I'm a mum, which is, you know,
what I dreamed of. So it's this really confusing headspace
of navigating both Like I kind of knew it was depression,
but I didn't. I think I just didn't want the label.
(08:19):
I didn't want to be in that category because I
had already found myself in this category of being a
widow and filling out paperwork to say widow is like
still really hard for me, Like I cry every time
I see a form like that. It was like coming
to terms with all these labels and I kind of
didn't want another one, and for me, it was a
really heavy label, just like widow is. That's probably the
(08:40):
one stage of grief that I'm like, Okay, I now
have to acknowledge that that was and kind of still
is part of me. It's something I still struggle with
a lot, and probably now that it's been four years,
I would say it's almost the isolation and the loneliness.
It's actually bigger than the early days for me. So
(09:01):
I'm working on that. But that's the depression one, except
this is where the reality is and accepting the reality
and moving forward. How does that fit for you?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
For me, I feel like it's nearly been five years
and I only feel like now I can move forward
with my life, like I have reclaimed my power as such.
You know, I now have the courage to make big
decisions in my life to benefit Maxwell and I like
I have the courage to do that on my own
(09:32):
without Sean, and I have the courage again to try
and tick off some of the bucket list items that
we had together. But it's taken me a very long
time to reclaim my power as such. I wouldn't call
this acceptance though, I'll never accept that Sean's gone. Ever.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I struggle with that too. I don't like that word.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I'll never accept that he went through pain and suffering
only to lose his fight. I'll never accept that Maxwell
has to grow up without his dad. I'll just never
accept that a good thirty year old man was taken
from this world. Like, I just won't accept that. How
do you accept that?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I find really heartless the word acceptance, because we're not
going to accept it. How can you accept the loss
of a loved one that is so intertwined in your life,
that is part of your present and your future. And
you're building a life together, you're building a family together,
You're at the start of the journey together. So I
think it's really heartless to think that we just accept
(10:32):
that and move on, Like we don't move on. I think,
you know, there's terms that get thrown around around, like
you know, moving forward or moving forward with like they're
still with us. I don't feel acceptance, and I don't
feel that that's the right word to be using in
the context of grief.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I agree, and then bargaining, I think I go through
this one a lot still, the whole What if I think,
because the journey was so long for us, you know,
from when Sean got sick. I always find myself being like,
what if we had tried a different doctor, what if
you'd started a different chemo? Was there signs that I
missed early down the track that he was in pain?
You know, he had pains in his rib? Did I
(11:09):
miss something? You know? Did he make mention of something
else that I missed? What if we'd gone and had
routine checkups every year? You know? And this is something
that I talk about a lot now. I send everybody
everyone I talked to him, like when did you last
have your health check? When did you last get this checked?
When did? I'm completely paranoid, But you know, is that
what if? What if Sean had gone twelve months earlier
to go get a general health check up? You know?
(11:32):
But why would a twenty nine year old man going
get tested for nothing when he's completely fine? You know?
So it's that what if for me is what if
we had done something different?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I think, being the partner that's left, like, we're always
going to think that because for me, it was very
much around you know, my situation happened in that instance,
so it was really jolting, and I couldn't understand, Like
I said, that real shock factor, but I didn't know
what the what ifs should have been. I felt like
I had no time to have that thought process. But
(12:01):
when you talk about it, it sounds, you know, like
there's a lot of I don't know if it's guilt
all like that control of like you've taken all of
that on, like what if I did something different? But
it's interesting. I did actually see this article pop up recently,
and I'd heard about stages of grief, but I kind
of didn't really take much notice because I thought I've
just got to move through what I'm moving through right
now and get support for what I am trying to
(12:22):
process and cope with. But grief that I didn't know
about and I hadn't seen before, but I thought it
was really interesting and it's meaning, so finding meaning and
a sense of closure and honoring the person with more
peace than pain. And I kind of think that that's
almost what we're doing on this show, really is we're
coming together and you know, these are conversations that you
(12:42):
and I have all the time anyway, but sharing that
with people to say that we've had these lemons story
art us. We've navigated all this really tough time with
our life and with our partners and now without them.
But to like create something.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Good of it, create some purpose, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Have that purpose, but in a way that is respectful
and to honor them and ourselves and the kids to
move forward. So that's probably the only one that I'm
now feeling like, yes, I can connect with depression, but
I'm feeling like it's more this meaning And that's hard.
I mean when we're still trying to navigate the challenges
of loss, but to rise above it in a way
(13:21):
and go, yeah, that's happening, and I'm still going to
be working through that. Like I fully accept that I'm
probably going to be seeing a psychologist for the long term.
And that's okay, that's the support I need. I find
it helpful. It works for me. But to also now
go and what else and how can I create a life,
you know, with that meaning for myself, for our family
in a way that is honoring that and doing it
(13:43):
in a way that's purposeful and aligned to our values.
But this article also was from the ABC, and it
said that there's no scientific basis for this model, so
it's interesting to me that there is this common conversation
around stages of grief, and I'm not clear on what
it's backed by. You know, sure there's some themes of
what people experience, but I don't think we should ply
(14:05):
it to say, when you're grieving, you will experience these
six stages like they're not a neatly packaged process and
you don't just do one phase, tick that off and
then move on.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I agree, and I think it's important that we don't
feel bad that we're grouping the wrong way because we're
not following this process.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Because there is no right or wrong. And that's what
we speak about a lot is it's all relative. Like
you have a very different experience to what I have
and all of our loved ones, you know, with the
loss and everyone listening, whether it's a loss of a person,
loss of a job, like, there's lots of forms of
grief and it's so complex and it's so delicate. I
think there's definitely times when I've felt like, you know,
(14:43):
some people think that someone's grief is better or worse
than the others in those situations. Have you come across
that too, I think yes.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Going back to the Facebook page of the widows, and
you know, attending some of the widow groups, like we're
all in the same situation. But it was really interesting
being in a room full of other women who have
all lost their partners and are on an equal playing
field essentially, and how you connect with some more than others,
and people are all at different stages, and you know,
(15:12):
there's a lot of people that are feeling like they're
a victim more than others, and there's more people that
support one another, and it's just so different, and I
just don't think you can put a label on any
of it.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I think there's also some people that are very comfortable
in talking about it, and sometimes they're talking about it
in a struggling you know, accepting that they're struggling, and
they kind of can be a bit woe is Me,
and everything's doom and gloom and very sad, and it is.
But then there's others that I was talking to a
friend actually, in her grief story, she now uses humor
(15:42):
and so she tells a lot of duck jokes and
she said it's funny because then people just go, you know,
feel really awkward and.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Just so silent to say.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And I was like, well, good on you, but that's
not for me. So even to know that people now
cope with it differently, even like years later, like it's
still an ongoing thing. But you're right, grief is not equal.
No one is better or worse. We're just different, you know.
For me, I can say I'm just doing the best
I can, but there is also no right or wrong.
I'm human and I'm just trying to show up every day,
(16:12):
and I think that's all that we can do in
grief is do our best. So you said at the
beginning that you thought that the stages of grief were
a load of shit. Now what do you think now
that we've spoken out a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I mean, I think it's not an order. You don't
have to follow it. You're not doing the wrong thing.
You're not a bad person if you don't feel all
these stages the way that they're labeled and the way
that you're meant to inning. Even with the two of us,
I think some of them apply to you more than
they do to me, and to me more than they
do to you, And that's okay.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think the other thing people talk a lot about
is the first year of grief, and that is the
first year of all of the milestones and getting through.
We wanted to talk a little bit today about the
early stages of grief and all of the first I mean,
you know, at the time Max, I just turned one,
Like I said, you sort of had a bit of
(17:00):
a lead up, and then you've got this first year
of grief. In those early phases.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I found actually no in my phone that I wrote
this week Sean passed away, and it says, and suddenly
the life you know is over fever, You're gone, and
I'm just supposed to carry on. It's like I've been
given a book without a bookmark. I don't know where
I've left off. I just have to open a new
page and keep going. It's hard to see the light
at the end of the tunnel. When you can't see
the light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
How are you feeling when you wrote that down?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It brings back a lot, It really does, I think
sum up the loss in the early days. I think
it really is you don't know what's next. You don't
know what's next tomorrow or the next day or the
day after that. And it's like you have this chapter
in front of you, you have this book. You're writing
this book with your person, and then it's like they
if someone's just come along and torn all the pages out.
(17:51):
You know, you don't know what's next, you don't know
what your next chapter looks like. And that's hard to
process in that moment.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
And it's completely dark. You're in that darkness. Yeah, I
definitely relate to that and that for me, it was
that moment of change. And I'm you know, pregnant with triplets.
I'm seventeen weeks pregnant, and I'm going what like, I'm
not meant to be here on my own. This is
meant to be our thing and our family, and now
(18:18):
we're sort of talk a lot about how do I
do this? You know, what am I meant to be doing?
And you know that guidance from them or just the conversations,
you know, after a long day of mothering and being
at home with the kids. And for me, my first
year was also with newborns, so I've got my first
year of grief and newborns. So that is a lot
(18:40):
to navigate.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Physically, it was draining. Like I said, I was getting
three hours sleep at night and that was broken sleep,
but three hours of sleep because just feeding triplets overnight
takes a long time. So it's physically draining, mentally and
emotionally because of everything else that's going on. But that
first year grief is not restricted to a year. We
also know that after that first year, it does feel
(19:05):
like in a way that the novelty wears off other people.
Like people go back to work, they go back to
their life, they go back to their homes, they go
back to their families, their routine. We don't have that luxury.
Well it now feels like a luxury. We don't get
to return to anything. Everything is new. And that was
something that I really struggled with was from this moment,
(19:27):
from this point onwards, everything has changed. The future of
the hopes and dreams as well has changed. So it's
not just the actual day to day practicalities of life,
but the hopes and dreams are now being taken away.
So and even now four and five years later, we
still face this every single day, and I think that
we do a good job of hiding that most of
the time from other people, but sometimes to ourselves. As
(19:50):
a coping strategy, I think to just show up and
keep doing that while everyone's going.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Home and I think we're also carrying the grief of
the kids as well, because it's all those things that
we know that they're missing out on. Like it's not easy,
you know, when it's a birth day and Maxwell started
school this year, and it's seeing all of those little
milestones that you're supposed to do with your significant other
or that you're now having to do by yourself. I
feel like I grieve a lot more than Maxwell. Yeah,
(20:18):
in a way. You know, he's going to go out
without his dad, which is just such a shame. It's
just such a sad thought that I got to know,
and so many people got to know how amazing Sean was,
and his own son can't learn that. You know, he'll
learn that through stories and things that we tell him,
but yeah, it's just such a shame.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I find that bit really heartbreaking because of course, we
tell our kids constantly about how amazing their dad is,
and you know, all the things, and you know, we've
got videos on our phone, but none of the videos
are for them. You know, they're just snippets of their
life or their photos and their stories, and you know
there's only components, like you know, prior to us meeting
(20:56):
Sean and Matt, you know, their childhood. We don't have
all the stories. It's the moment of the kids won't
get that opportunity to have Dad at those milestones. I
feel a lot of grief for Matt in that as well,
knowing and I know Sean would be the same, how
desperately they would want to be part of it, would
love that and would be so present in that. But
(21:19):
it's not just the big milestones either. And I think
that's what I feel at times, is what people forget.
It's not just the birthdays or the graduating from KINDI
and starting school. It's not the big moments. It's part
of our everyday life. And obviously another big one though,
is like Christmas morning, that's a really hard day. Everyone
(21:40):
is at home with their families, they're opening presents in
their pajamas, and they're doing all the family things. And
I think you and I and we've spoken about this,
is that that's a heavy day because it's so obvious
what's not there. They're obviously big milestones, but just every day,
you know.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, I think another like every day one for me
that I struggled with in the early days is every
day I finished work, I'd call Sean I was about
to see him. I would call him just out of
routine every day. But you know, you talk about your
day quickly, and it's still something I find myself doing,
Like I still finish work to pick up the phone
to call Sean. And it's been nearly five years, and
(22:18):
that's really hard. Like you said, it's the little things
that people don't see. It's not just the milestone days
and the birthdays and this and that. It's just everyday life.
So do you think your grief has then changed over time? Yeah,
I think it has. I think I took baby steps,
you know, I think I had to find the courage
(22:39):
to keep going again. I'm doing it for Maxwell, I'm
doing it for Sean. And I took little baby steps
of things that I wanted to do. You know, Like
Sean and I were big travelers. We traveled a lot,
so you know, booking a holiday for Max and I
was a big thing. You know. We went, and we
were fortunate enough to go with friends, so it wasn't
us completely by ourselves, but we went and it was
(23:00):
just such an accomplishment for me that I managed to
do it. I think a big thing I've struggle good
with over time is you know, trying to just reclaim
my power again. So I think from the early days
to now, I feel like I'm doing that. It's not easy,
but I'm doing things that short and I wanted to do.
And at the beginning, you feel very like you can't
(23:21):
do anything anymore, like you're by yourself, and there's so
many avenues we can touch on. But I think that's
a big thing that's changed for me is over time,
I've reclaimed my power again, and I think that's how
my grief is now different. Is I felt helpless and
I felt like there was no hope and I had
no idea what I was going to do. And by
keeping busy and by like setting myself up to do
(23:43):
little things along the way, I feel like I'm coping better.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Now and the reality is real.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
It's definitely sunk in now. But like more time that passes,
it doesn't get easier. If anything, I feel like the
more years that go by, the harder it is.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
That is one of the sayings that I really struggle with.
Everyone's like it'll get easier.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Every year like it's another year it'll get easier.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
To manage to comprehend that it has been five years
this year and Maxwell's turning six and he passed when
Max was one. Like that to me is crazy, because
then you go down the whole of thinking of all
the things that they've missed out on, and you know,
even friends getting married and friends having kids, like we
have some friends with kids who sure never met, like
(24:25):
and you start spiraling and you start thinking about things
like that. So I think the grief over time is
just so different. But it's never going away. It's never
going to go away. It's just different.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I'm probably similar in like finding myself again. I was
a complete shell of a person. I literally struggled to
string a sentence together to my family and friends, like
the closest people to me, I couldn't even speak. I've
obviously done a lot of work to get back to
kind of a baseline perspective. I mean, I will never
be the same person. And there's also this I guess
(25:00):
new person coming and I actually find that difficult. I'm
now becoming a person that Matt doesn't know. That's hard,
And I also know that I'm becoming a person that
I know that he would be really proud of. Like
I said, I'm here and I get to live this
life and I'm doing it for us. I still wear
my wedding rings. I still very much consider myself married.
(25:21):
Like I feel as though Matt is really present in
our life, and I do that a lot with the kids,
and they know him and he's very present. So I
think that that is what has changed, is I've kind
of brought him into our life more and I'm creating
this with him, and I do feel like he is
still with us in the sense that, you know, living
(25:42):
out our values, living out our dreams, and of course
it's heartbreaking that he's not here, but I owe it
to him and I owe it to us as a couple.
I know that it feels like a lot of pressure,
but I also take it with a lot of gratitude
that this is what I want to do, I suppose,
and you know, carving out like I never expected that
I'd be hosting a podcast, but I feel this sense
(26:06):
of opportunity of sharing and you know, connecting with people,
and that is something I truly believe in, and you know,
we felt it in each other in our friendship, saying
how we're supporting each other extends and we you know,
in the series, we're going to be talking about things
that are not just grief related, but other lemons that
life throws at you. And that's really important to us because,
you know, even though there's moments of heaviness in our story,
(26:29):
and you know in some of the episodes that we
were talking about, we just really want to focus on
the possibilities and the life that can be created and
reclaiming the power. And that's a journey, but it is
something that we are both really passionate about us not
being these widows that just stay at home and cry
and don't get out and see the world. And we
have that drive and we want to be active and
(26:51):
out there and doing fun things with the kids and
enjoying our life and making the most of it because
we know how precious it is.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
So precious. I think another unexpected thing that happened for
me is changing things along the way. I remember I
left my job that Sean knew that I was in,
and I found it so difficult to come to terms
with the fact that I was moving to a new
job in a new industry that Sean didn't know me in.
(27:19):
You know, little things like that, just to change the
routine and it sounds ridiculous. But to change like internet providers,
it feels big, right, like I'm changing who our internet
is with, but I feel like I'm changing something and
I'm not telling him, And that something I still find
completely bizarre, Like when I'm making like adult life decisions. Yes,
(27:39):
internet is one of them.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And in some ways it feels like a really trivial thing,
like what does it matter, you know, whether you're getting
a better deal or whatever. The reason is right, and
it is so hard to do that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Whoever thought changing internet would be so difficult?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yep, I've had those phone calls. I can totally relate
to that.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
I think you'd never really understand how hard it'll be
sharing your story over and over and over again with
new people. And I think you have a child and
people just assume there's a dad, And I've been asked
a lot, you know, oh, where's Max's dad? Where is
Maxwell's dad? Where is he? And it never gets easier
telling them like, oh, Max's dad passed away. That's something
(28:20):
I've really struggled with and it's not something you expect
will be that hard. But to come to that reality,
it's like that reality is hits you every time someone,
and especially now he's at school. You know, there's so
many parents and they're like, well, where's Maxis dad today?
And you've got to like take a deep breath and
then you tell them. And it's the unexpected reactions that
(28:40):
people give back. You never know what people are going
to say back to you, and I found that really
hard throughout the process. As well. Is their facial expressions.
People are like shock, horror. Some people are like okay,
and then like change the subject. They feel guilty for asking,
they feel when they hear the asking, and because I
feel like there's an element of they want the goss,
they're like, oh, where's Max's dad? Someone asked me and
(29:03):
I told them and I said, oh no, it's just
like and they burst out crying in front of me,
and that was unexpected. I was like, I don't really
know this person at all, and that was a shock.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
I've had that too, When then they start crying and
I'm just standing there. And then there's moments when I'm
like I should be crying, but I'm so shocked in
the moment that I don't have the emotion, and I
feel like I'm working so hard to keep my emotions
in check, and I can't support you at the same time,
like I literally all of my energy goes to myself
and our kids. I can't cope with you crying too.
(29:35):
And I'm like, I know, it's sad, Like it's my life,
so it's hard when people cry. I get it and
it's shocking. But yeah, I do find that they ask
the question hoping to get a little bit of gossip,
and then when they hear the response, they freak out
and go oh, and they have this moment of like,
I wish I didn't ask, same, I wish I didn't
ask as well, because now you've just bought it all
(29:56):
love for me. But it's hard to navigate that one
when they want to know, but then they actually don't
want to know the eetza. I think the other thing
that people probably don't see is and we talk about
it a lot. Actually, we talk about sort of the
mental load that we're now running the house as well.
So obviously it's the grief component looking after kids. You know,
in your case, you've got Max and then for me,
I've got the three, but it's everything around the house,
(30:19):
so it's not just the daycare drop offs, and managing
the kids and getting them to birthday parties and whatever.
But it's everything, taking the bins out, cleaning the house
like everything. Washing the car, yeah, no one likes that job. No,
washing the car, like all of it. Whereas you know,
Matt and I never really had oh you're responsible for
the inside the house and I do the outside of
the house, or you know, we never really had set
(30:42):
jobs per se. It was all very shared, and now
we have to do it all. So I was recently
I had to like the door handle had broken, and
I can figure it out. I wasn't worried to figure
it out, but I did have a moment where I've
got to do everything, and I've got to think about everything.
I've got to make sure the kids, you know, lunchboxes
(31:02):
are packed or whatever, and there's that load. But this doorhand,
it really got to me, and I, you know, was
problem solving it. And I figured out that it wasn't
just the door handle itself, it was like the internal mechanics.
And then I'm pulling all this out, I'm covered in grease,
and I just was like, it's just a lot, and
it's all of the little things, and yeah, washing the
car like everything is up to us now, and I'm
(31:26):
very grateful to have help with some of those things.
Washing the car is just something I can't bring myself
to do. I don't know. Matt just did that and
he actually enjoyed it, and so for me that's too much.
So I just now pay to get it washed. And
I also don't think about it. I think my mental
load it like I'm so busy with trying to keep
up with everything else that I forget that the car
is dirty, like I can see and it absolutely annoys me.
(31:47):
But it's just pretty low on the priority order. So
often someone will be like, ash, you might need to
wash the car. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, thanks, Or
I have a beautiful friend that calls me he's like, hey,
actually need the lawns mode Oh yep, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I find sometimes that's helpful, but ultimately doing all the
jobs around the house, are you the same?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
And I think it also it's not the physical, but
it's the mental lowe Like when you're in a relationship
with someone, you both bring something to the table. You know.
I'm very much an overthinker, Like I can't make decisions
at all, Like I really struggle, like what's for dinner?
And I'm like, okay, Sean's like pick something Indian or Chinese.
I can't, Like, I can't decide you pick. So, you know,
it's like funny when you're in a relationship with someone,
(32:26):
you compliment each other in the way that I can't
decide he will make the decisions, or just in different
scenarios you compliment each other. Well, when you find your person,
you know what I mean, you both blend to become united,
you know. And I think when you don't have that
person with you anymore, the things that they used to
compliment you with are gone. You find yourself like I
(32:48):
found myself anyway, trying to take on this emotional load
where Sean would sometimes even it out, and there was
things that I did for Sean, and so it's almost
remembering who you were before you met them.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I think the biggest thing that we have learnt over
these couple of years is that is constant. It looks
different for everyone. I think that that is the biggest thing,
and that probably really ties back to those stages of grief,
is like we don't think it's this linear process. It's
so complicated and it's so unique even to us, Like
we have a lot of similarities in our grief, and
(33:20):
then we have a lot of differences and it's all valid.
I think that's the biggest lesson for me is that
it is individual. It's also going to be lifelong, and
we're going to keep working, like we've done a lot
of work to get to this point and to start
reclaiming our power and finding our joy again. And it's
going to continue so that we can keep discovering that
person and creating that life for ourselves and our family.
(33:42):
If you loved this episode, please don't keep it a secret,
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Apogae production. Please note that this conversation is a big one.
Will be discussing grief, loss, and mental health. If this
isn't the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join
us on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just
Life and Lemons. I'm Ash and I'm Kayla. This podcast
(00:26):
is all about embracing life's lemons and making them into
something beautiful. We've had a fair few lemons thrown it
our way, but we're not letting that stop us.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome back to another episode of Just Life and Lemons. Today,
we're going to be chatting about the stages of grieving,
navigating loss in the early days, finding the right support network,
and all the unexpected things that come with grief.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now, this is something that we've spoken a little bit about.
If you google grief, this is what comes up. And
I think you and I both struggled with this because
we don't really agree with it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think it's a lot of shit. Can I say that?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, you can say that. So, according to Google, the
stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, and
there's actually been a sixth one ad it. In case
you didn't know, meaning, Okay, So the first one is denial,
and this is where we're really in that state of disbelief,
feeling numb, clinging to false reality, or just that shock factor.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I think for me, I think my denial kind of
happened when Shawn was diagnosed with cancer. I think my
denial of the whole process started back then, so we
were in denial when we were going through that journey,
and then I think when he passed, I don't think
I was in a denial. I think I had not
call it time to prepare, but the whole thing was denial.
(01:50):
I was living in an autopilot, probably denying the whole thing,
the whole.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Way, because yeah, your grief process started before the actual
loss of sure exactly. Look, I definitely felt the shock
because my loss was instantaneous, you know, and my whole
life changed in that split second of losing that. So
I remember being sort of physically here, but mentally I
(02:16):
was just not present, and really that feeling of numbness
carried for some time because I couldn't understand what had happened.
I was really in that state of shock. I feel
like as we go through these stages, though, I feel
like I felt all of them all the time. I
don't think they're just these stages. What about anger for you?
Did you feel that?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I don't really think anger was a part of it.
I think it's more you're kind of like, why did
this happen to him? Like? Why did this happen to
such a good person? You know? That was more of it.
They say that the good day young you know, you
hear that saying thrown out a lot, and it's like,
but why why did that happen? You know, he had
the whole world going for him. He was a great person.
(02:57):
He was great at his job, he was intelligent, he
was a great partner, he was a great son, he
was a great friend. Why, Like that was probably where
the anger came from. It's like, why him? Why did
he have to go?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So more confusion then as opposed to anger. Yeah, and
that like disbelief.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Possibly a little bit of anger in the fact that
why did he go through what he went through? Why
did we go through all of that pain and suffering?
And why did he go through all that pain and
suffering to pass away? That was probably the extent of
the anger. It's like because he was he was in
pain like he was in agony, and then you know,
we adjusted to his new body, and you know that
was pain for him, you know, But why that was
(03:35):
the anger that I felt in that situation.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, And I think anger for me is I don't
think I've felt it. I truly struggle to have met
and anger in the same sentence. I can't reconcile that.
Sure there's moments of like, how did this happen? But
that feels more shocked for me as opposed to anger
toward the situation. I just I really struggle with that emotion.
(03:59):
I don't feel like I'm an angry person. I've never
really related to that emotion anyway, and certainly in the
context of Matt, it just doesn't make sense to me.
I don't feel like I'm going to get to that point.
There's definitely part of me that if we look at this,
oh well, that's a stage of grief. So there's a
part of me that's going, oh shit, I haven't experienced
that yet. Does that mean it's building and that it's
going to be quite explosive when I do feel that anger?
(04:20):
You know, there's definitely been challenging times through the last
four years, and definitely, you know, frustration around different situations
or challenges, but not anger. I really struggle with that one,
and I don't think I've felt it. Part of me
worries that it might be building, but then there's also
part of me that feels like, well, it's been this
long and I haven't felt it, so I think I'm good.
(04:42):
I don't think I'm going to feel that. And like
I said, the big part for me is the association
between Matt and anger is just nothing. It doesn't resonate
with me at all. Depression is a big one. You know,
sadness from the loss, but also the sadness of the
impact on life, crying, sleep, isolation, overwhelm and loneliness. Is
that something that you've experienced.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I mean, I think it's the wrong choice of word
because I don't think I've ever been depressed. I think
I felt sadness and obviously heartbreak and readjustment, but I
don't think I've been depressed. And I think when Sean
passed away, I went into autopilot. I was so busy
(05:23):
I literally filled my calendar to the brim. I went
back to work the following week. Max went back to
daycare and we just kept going, and it was probably
only about six months ago that I kind of got tired.
I was like, I've been on autopilot, filling my days
to the brim, from the moment I wake up to
the moment I go to bed. I haven't allowed myself
(05:44):
to be depressed.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So that was your coping stress.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That's how I coped. I went straight back to work.
People like, what are you doing, Like, you're crazy, you
need to stop, you need to take time off, And
I'm like, but why I can't, Like, I can't sit
in my own thoughts. I can't sit in my house
and feel sadness. And the times that I have felt
sadness are those times at night when you know, Maxwell
goes to bed and you're sitting on the couch and
you're like, Okay, now I'm sad, and you know what,
(06:07):
I go put myself to bed. I can't sit here.
So I haven't allowed myself to be in that stage
of depression that people say that you're going to be in.
You know it kind of in a way, it makes me,
you feel like a bad person. It's like, is it
bad that I lost the love of my life and
I haven't been depressed I've been sad and I'm heartbroken
and I will always be heartbroken. But yeah, I don't
(06:27):
completely agree with that phase.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And see I'm probably the opposite. I really did struggle
with the label. I went through all of that, you know,
the extreme sadness, the loneliness, which is I think something
that people would probably not realize that I was and
am still dealing with, because particularly when our little trio
(06:50):
were born, well, even after Matt's accident, there was an
influx of support and help, you know, family friends, colleagues
like incredible the love that I received to help me
get through that time, but particularly when the babies were born,
and it was a necessity for me to have twenty
four to seven help at home with the kids, and
(07:11):
I struggled with that because there was someone in my
face all the time, and that was a combination of family,
friends and even professional nannies because ultimately, it's me and
three babies and it's you know, I think on average
I would get three hours sleep night, and that was
for the first eighteen months. I'm sleep deprived, new mum
with triplets, grieving and all this help. Yes, it was helpful,
(07:34):
and it wasn't at the same time because I was,
you know, inundated with all these people around me, and
I sort of didn't realize it at the time. I
knew I was sad, and like, obviously I was, but
I didn't really know what it was. I just thought, well,
of course I'm going to be sad with all of
this going on. It wasn't until my psychologist was telling me, well, yeah, ash,
that's called depression. I couldn't connect with that label. I
(07:57):
struggled to accept. I suppose that I was depressed. I
could understand the why, but then I was also like,
but I've also got them most incredible thing. I've got
our babies, and I'm a mum, which is, you know,
what I dreamed of. So it's this really confusing headspace
of navigating both Like I kind of knew it was depression,
but I didn't. I think I just didn't want the label.
(08:19):
I didn't want to be in that category because I
had already found myself in this category of being a
widow and filling out paperwork to say widow is like
still really hard for me, Like I cry every time
I see a form like that. It was like coming
to terms with all these labels and I kind of
didn't want another one, and for me, it was a
really heavy label, just like widow is. That's probably the
(08:40):
one stage of grief that I'm like, Okay, I now
have to acknowledge that that was and kind of still
is part of me. It's something I still struggle with
a lot, and probably now that it's been four years,
I would say it's almost the isolation and the loneliness.
It's actually bigger than the early days for me. So
(09:01):
I'm working on that. But that's the depression one, except
this is where the reality is and accepting the reality
and moving forward. How does that fit for you?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
For me, I feel like it's nearly been five years
and I only feel like now I can move forward
with my life, like I have reclaimed my power as such.
You know, I now have the courage to make big
decisions in my life to benefit Maxwell and I like
I have the courage to do that on my own
(09:32):
without Sean, and I have the courage again to try
and tick off some of the bucket list items that
we had together. But it's taken me a very long
time to reclaim my power as such. I wouldn't call
this acceptance though, I'll never accept that Sean's gone. Ever.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I struggle with that too. I don't like that word.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I'll never accept that he went through pain and suffering
only to lose his fight. I'll never accept that Maxwell
has to grow up without his dad. I'll just never
accept that a good thirty year old man was taken
from this world. Like, I just won't accept that. How
do you accept that?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I find really heartless the word acceptance, because we're not
going to accept it. How can you accept the loss
of a loved one that is so intertwined in your life,
that is part of your present and your future. And
you're building a life together, you're building a family together,
You're at the start of the journey together. So I
think it's really heartless to think that we just accept
(10:32):
that and move on, Like we don't move on. I think,
you know, there's terms that get thrown around around, like
you know, moving forward or moving forward with like they're
still with us. I don't feel acceptance, and I don't
feel that that's the right word to be using in
the context of grief.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I agree, and then bargaining, I think I go through
this one a lot still, the whole What if I think,
because the journey was so long for us, you know,
from when Sean got sick. I always find myself being like,
what if we had tried a different doctor, what if
you'd started a different chemo? Was there signs that I
missed early down the track that he was in pain?
You know, he had pains in his rib? Did I
(11:09):
miss something? You know? Did he make mention of something
else that I missed? What if we'd gone and had
routine checkups every year? You know? And this is something
that I talk about a lot now. I send everybody
everyone I talked to him, like when did you last
have your health check? When did you last get this checked?
When did? I'm completely paranoid, But you know, is that
what if? What if Sean had gone twelve months earlier
to go get a general health check up? You know?
(11:32):
But why would a twenty nine year old man going
get tested for nothing when he's completely fine? You know?
So it's that what if for me is what if
we had done something different?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I think, being the partner that's left, like, we're always
going to think that because for me, it was very
much around you know, my situation happened in that instance,
so it was really jolting, and I couldn't understand, Like
I said, that real shock factor, but I didn't know
what the what ifs should have been. I felt like
I had no time to have that thought process. But
(12:01):
when you talk about it, it sounds, you know, like
there's a lot of I don't know if it's guilt
all like that control of like you've taken all of
that on, like what if I did something different? But
it's interesting. I did actually see this article pop up recently,
and I'd heard about stages of grief, but I kind
of didn't really take much notice because I thought I've
just got to move through what I'm moving through right
now and get support for what I am trying to
(12:22):
process and cope with. But grief that I didn't know
about and I hadn't seen before, but I thought it
was really interesting and it's meaning, so finding meaning and
a sense of closure and honoring the person with more
peace than pain. And I kind of think that that's
almost what we're doing on this show, really is we're
coming together and you know, these are conversations that you
(12:42):
and I have all the time anyway, but sharing that
with people to say that we've had these lemons story
art us. We've navigated all this really tough time with
our life and with our partners and now without them.
But to like create something.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Good of it, create some purpose, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Have that purpose, but in a way that is respectful
and to honor them and ourselves and the kids to
move forward. So that's probably the only one that I'm
now feeling like, yes, I can connect with depression, but
I'm feeling like it's more this meaning And that's hard.
I mean when we're still trying to navigate the challenges
of loss, but to rise above it in a way
(13:21):
and go, yeah, that's happening, and I'm still going to
be working through that. Like I fully accept that I'm
probably going to be seeing a psychologist for the long term.
And that's okay, that's the support I need. I find
it helpful. It works for me. But to also now
go and what else and how can I create a life,
you know, with that meaning for myself, for our family
in a way that is honoring that and doing it
(13:43):
in a way that's purposeful and aligned to our values.
But this article also was from the ABC, and it
said that there's no scientific basis for this model, so
it's interesting to me that there is this common conversation
around stages of grief, and I'm not clear on what
it's backed by. You know, sure there's some themes of
what people experience, but I don't think we should ply
(14:05):
it to say, when you're grieving, you will experience these
six stages like they're not a neatly packaged process and
you don't just do one phase, tick that off and
then move on.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I agree, and I think it's important that we don't
feel bad that we're grouping the wrong way because we're
not following this process.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Because there is no right or wrong. And that's what
we speak about a lot is it's all relative. Like
you have a very different experience to what I have
and all of our loved ones, you know, with the
loss and everyone listening, whether it's a loss of a person,
loss of a job, like, there's lots of forms of
grief and it's so complex and it's so delicate. I
think there's definitely times when I've felt like, you know,
(14:43):
some people think that someone's grief is better or worse
than the others in those situations. Have you come across
that too, I think yes.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Going back to the Facebook page of the widows, and
you know, attending some of the widow groups, like we're
all in the same situation. But it was really interesting
being in a room full of other women who have
all lost their partners and are on an equal playing
field essentially, and how you connect with some more than others,
and people are all at different stages, and you know,
(15:12):
there's a lot of people that are feeling like they're
a victim more than others, and there's more people that
support one another, and it's just so different, and I
just don't think you can put a label on any
of it.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I think there's also some people that are very comfortable
in talking about it, and sometimes they're talking about it
in a struggling you know, accepting that they're struggling, and
they kind of can be a bit woe is Me,
and everything's doom and gloom and very sad, and it is.
But then there's others that I was talking to a
friend actually, in her grief story, she now uses humor
(15:42):
and so she tells a lot of duck jokes and
she said it's funny because then people just go, you know,
feel really awkward and.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Just so silent to say.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And I was like, well, good on you, but that's
not for me. So even to know that people now
cope with it differently, even like years later, like it's
still an ongoing thing. But you're right, grief is not equal.
No one is better or worse. We're just different, you know.
For me, I can say I'm just doing the best
I can, but there is also no right or wrong.
I'm human and I'm just trying to show up every day,
(16:12):
and I think that's all that we can do in
grief is do our best. So you said at the
beginning that you thought that the stages of grief were
a load of shit. Now what do you think now
that we've spoken out a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I mean, I think it's not an order. You don't
have to follow it. You're not doing the wrong thing.
You're not a bad person if you don't feel all
these stages the way that they're labeled and the way
that you're meant to inning. Even with the two of us,
I think some of them apply to you more than
they do to me, and to me more than they
do to you, And that's okay.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think the other thing people talk a lot about
is the first year of grief, and that is the
first year of all of the milestones and getting through.
We wanted to talk a little bit today about the
early stages of grief and all of the first I mean,
you know, at the time Max, I just turned one,
Like I said, you sort of had a bit of
(17:00):
a lead up, and then you've got this first year
of grief. In those early phases.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I found actually no in my phone that I wrote
this week Sean passed away, and it says, and suddenly
the life you know is over fever, You're gone, and
I'm just supposed to carry on. It's like I've been
given a book without a bookmark. I don't know where
I've left off. I just have to open a new
page and keep going. It's hard to see the light
at the end of the tunnel. When you can't see
the light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
How are you feeling when you wrote that down?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It brings back a lot, It really does, I think
sum up the loss in the early days. I think
it really is you don't know what's next. You don't
know what's next tomorrow or the next day or the
day after that. And it's like you have this chapter
in front of you, you have this book. You're writing
this book with your person, and then it's like they
if someone's just come along and torn all the pages out.
(17:51):
You know, you don't know what's next, you don't know
what your next chapter looks like. And that's hard to
process in that moment.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
And it's completely dark. You're in that darkness. Yeah, I
definitely relate to that and that for me, it was
that moment of change. And I'm you know, pregnant with triplets.
I'm seventeen weeks pregnant, and I'm going what like, I'm
not meant to be here on my own. This is
meant to be our thing and our family, and now
(18:18):
we're sort of talk a lot about how do I
do this? You know, what am I meant to be doing?
And you know that guidance from them or just the conversations,
you know, after a long day of mothering and being
at home with the kids. And for me, my first
year was also with newborns, so I've got my first
year of grief and newborns. So that is a lot
(18:40):
to navigate.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Physically, it was draining. Like I said, I was getting
three hours sleep at night and that was broken sleep,
but three hours of sleep because just feeding triplets overnight
takes a long time. So it's physically draining, mentally and
emotionally because of everything else that's going on. But that
first year grief is not restricted to a year. We
also know that after that first year, it does feel
(19:05):
like in a way that the novelty wears off other people.
Like people go back to work, they go back to
their life, they go back to their homes, they go
back to their families, their routine. We don't have that luxury.
Well it now feels like a luxury. We don't get
to return to anything. Everything is new. And that was
something that I really struggled with was from this moment,
(19:27):
from this point onwards, everything has changed. The future of
the hopes and dreams as well has changed. So it's
not just the actual day to day practicalities of life,
but the hopes and dreams are now being taken away.
So and even now four and five years later, we
still face this every single day, and I think that
we do a good job of hiding that most of
the time from other people, but sometimes to ourselves. As
(19:50):
a coping strategy, I think to just show up and
keep doing that while everyone's going.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Home and I think we're also carrying the grief of
the kids as well, because it's all those things that
we know that they're missing out on. Like it's not easy,
you know, when it's a birth day and Maxwell started
school this year, and it's seeing all of those little
milestones that you're supposed to do with your significant other
or that you're now having to do by yourself. I
feel like I grieve a lot more than Maxwell. Yeah,
(20:18):
in a way. You know, he's going to go out
without his dad, which is just such a shame. It's
just such a sad thought that I got to know,
and so many people got to know how amazing Sean was,
and his own son can't learn that. You know, he'll
learn that through stories and things that we tell him,
but yeah, it's just such a shame.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I find that bit really heartbreaking because of course, we
tell our kids constantly about how amazing their dad is,
and you know, all the things, and you know, we've
got videos on our phone, but none of the videos
are for them. You know, they're just snippets of their
life or their photos and their stories, and you know
there's only components, like you know, prior to us meeting
(20:56):
Sean and Matt, you know, their childhood. We don't have
all the stories. It's the moment of the kids won't
get that opportunity to have Dad at those milestones. I
feel a lot of grief for Matt in that as well,
knowing and I know Sean would be the same, how
desperately they would want to be part of it, would
love that and would be so present in that. But
(21:19):
it's not just the big milestones either. And I think
that's what I feel at times, is what people forget.
It's not just the birthdays or the graduating from KINDI
and starting school. It's not the big moments. It's part
of our everyday life. And obviously another big one though,
is like Christmas morning, that's a really hard day. Everyone
(21:40):
is at home with their families, they're opening presents in
their pajamas, and they're doing all the family things. And
I think you and I and we've spoken about this,
is that that's a heavy day because it's so obvious
what's not there. They're obviously big milestones, but just every day,
you know.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, I think another like every day one for me
that I struggled with in the early days is every
day I finished work, I'd call Sean I was about
to see him. I would call him just out of
routine every day. But you know, you talk about your
day quickly, and it's still something I find myself doing,
Like I still finish work to pick up the phone
to call Sean. And it's been nearly five years, and
(22:18):
that's really hard. Like you said, it's the little things
that people don't see. It's not just the milestone days
and the birthdays and this and that. It's just everyday life.
So do you think your grief has then changed over time? Yeah,
I think it has. I think I took baby steps,
you know, I think I had to find the courage
(22:39):
to keep going again. I'm doing it for Maxwell, I'm
doing it for Sean. And I took little baby steps
of things that I wanted to do. You know, Like
Sean and I were big travelers. We traveled a lot,
so you know, booking a holiday for Max and I
was a big thing. You know. We went, and we
were fortunate enough to go with friends, so it wasn't
us completely by ourselves, but we went and it was
(23:00):
just such an accomplishment for me that I managed to
do it. I think a big thing I've struggle good
with over time is you know, trying to just reclaim
my power again. So I think from the early days
to now, I feel like I'm doing that. It's not easy,
but I'm doing things that short and I wanted to do.
And at the beginning, you feel very like you can't
(23:21):
do anything anymore, like you're by yourself, and there's so
many avenues we can touch on. But I think that's
a big thing that's changed for me is over time,
I've reclaimed my power again, and I think that's how
my grief is now different. Is I felt helpless and
I felt like there was no hope and I had
no idea what I was going to do. And by
keeping busy and by like setting myself up to do
(23:43):
little things along the way, I feel like I'm coping better.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Now and the reality is real.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
It's definitely sunk in now. But like more time that passes,
it doesn't get easier. If anything, I feel like the
more years that go by, the harder it is.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
That is one of the sayings that I really struggle with.
Everyone's like it'll get easier.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Every year like it's another year it'll get easier.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
To manage to comprehend that it has been five years
this year and Maxwell's turning six and he passed when
Max was one. Like that to me is crazy, because
then you go down the whole of thinking of all
the things that they've missed out on, and you know,
even friends getting married and friends having kids, like we
have some friends with kids who sure never met, like
(24:25):
and you start spiraling and you start thinking about things
like that. So I think the grief over time is
just so different. But it's never going away. It's never
going to go away. It's just different.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I'm probably similar in like finding myself again. I was
a complete shell of a person. I literally struggled to
string a sentence together to my family and friends, like
the closest people to me, I couldn't even speak. I've
obviously done a lot of work to get back to
kind of a baseline perspective. I mean, I will never
be the same person. And there's also this I guess
(25:00):
new person coming and I actually find that difficult. I'm
now becoming a person that Matt doesn't know. That's hard,
And I also know that I'm becoming a person that
I know that he would be really proud of. Like
I said, I'm here and I get to live this
life and I'm doing it for us. I still wear
my wedding rings. I still very much consider myself married.
(25:21):
Like I feel as though Matt is really present in
our life, and I do that a lot with the kids,
and they know him and he's very present. So I
think that that is what has changed, is I've kind
of brought him into our life more and I'm creating
this with him, and I do feel like he is
still with us in the sense that, you know, living
(25:42):
out our values, living out our dreams, and of course
it's heartbreaking that he's not here, but I owe it
to him and I owe it to us as a couple.
I know that it feels like a lot of pressure,
but I also take it with a lot of gratitude
that this is what I want to do, I suppose,
and you know, carving out like I never expected that
I'd be hosting a podcast, but I feel this sense
(26:06):
of opportunity of sharing and you know, connecting with people,
and that is something I truly believe in, and you know,
we felt it in each other in our friendship, saying
how we're supporting each other extends and we you know,
in the series, we're going to be talking about things
that are not just grief related, but other lemons that
life throws at you. And that's really important to us because,
you know, even though there's moments of heaviness in our story,
(26:29):
and you know in some of the episodes that we
were talking about, we just really want to focus on
the possibilities and the life that can be created and
reclaiming the power. And that's a journey, but it is
something that we are both really passionate about us not
being these widows that just stay at home and cry
and don't get out and see the world. And we
have that drive and we want to be active and
(26:51):
out there and doing fun things with the kids and
enjoying our life and making the most of it because
we know how precious it is.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
So precious. I think another unexpected thing that happened for
me is changing things along the way. I remember I
left my job that Sean knew that I was in,
and I found it so difficult to come to terms
with the fact that I was moving to a new
job in a new industry that Sean didn't know me in.
(27:19):
You know, little things like that, just to change the
routine and it sounds ridiculous. But to change like internet providers,
it feels big, right, like I'm changing who our internet
is with, but I feel like I'm changing something and
I'm not telling him, And that something I still find
completely bizarre, Like when I'm making like adult life decisions. Yes,
(27:39):
internet is one of them.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And in some ways it feels like a really trivial thing,
like what does it matter, you know, whether you're getting
a better deal or whatever. The reason is right, and
it is so hard to do that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Whoever thought changing internet would be so difficult?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yep, I've had those phone calls. I can totally relate
to that.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
I think you'd never really understand how hard it'll be
sharing your story over and over and over again with
new people. And I think you have a child and
people just assume there's a dad, And I've been asked
a lot, you know, oh, where's Max's dad? Where is
Maxwell's dad? Where is he? And it never gets easier
telling them like, oh, Max's dad passed away. That's something
(28:20):
I've really struggled with and it's not something you expect
will be that hard. But to come to that reality,
it's like that reality is hits you every time someone,
and especially now he's at school. You know, there's so
many parents and they're like, well, where's Maxis dad today?
And you've got to like take a deep breath and
then you tell them. And it's the unexpected reactions that
(28:40):
people give back. You never know what people are going
to say back to you, and I found that really
hard throughout the process. As well. Is their facial expressions.
People are like shock, horror. Some people are like okay,
and then like change the subject. They feel guilty for asking,
they feel when they hear the asking, and because I
feel like there's an element of they want the goss,
they're like, oh, where's Max's dad? Someone asked me and
(29:03):
I told them and I said, oh no, it's just
like and they burst out crying in front of me,
and that was unexpected. I was like, I don't really
know this person at all, and that was a shock.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
I've had that too, When then they start crying and
I'm just standing there. And then there's moments when I'm
like I should be crying, but I'm so shocked in
the moment that I don't have the emotion, and I
feel like I'm working so hard to keep my emotions
in check, and I can't support you at the same time,
like I literally all of my energy goes to myself
and our kids. I can't cope with you crying too.
(29:35):
And I'm like, I know, it's sad, Like it's my life,
so it's hard when people cry. I get it and
it's shocking. But yeah, I do find that they ask
the question hoping to get a little bit of gossip,
and then when they hear the response, they freak out
and go oh, and they have this moment of like,
I wish I didn't ask, same, I wish I didn't
ask as well, because now you've just bought it all
(29:56):
love for me. But it's hard to navigate that one
when they want to know, but then they actually don't
want to know the eetza. I think the other thing
that people probably don't see is and we talk about
it a lot. Actually, we talk about sort of the
mental load that we're now running the house as well.
So obviously it's the grief component looking after kids. You know,
in your case, you've got Max and then for me,
I've got the three, but it's everything around the house,
(30:19):
so it's not just the daycare drop offs, and managing
the kids and getting them to birthday parties and whatever.
But it's everything, taking the bins out, cleaning the house
like everything. Washing the car, yeah, no one likes that job. No,
washing the car, like all of it. Whereas you know,
Matt and I never really had oh you're responsible for
the inside the house and I do the outside of
the house, or you know, we never really had set
(30:42):
jobs per se. It was all very shared, and now
we have to do it all. So I was recently
I had to like the door handle had broken, and
I can figure it out. I wasn't worried to figure
it out, but I did have a moment where I've
got to do everything, and I've got to think about everything.
I've got to make sure the kids, you know, lunchboxes
(31:02):
are packed or whatever, and there's that load. But this doorhand,
it really got to me, and I, you know, was
problem solving it. And I figured out that it wasn't
just the door handle itself, it was like the internal mechanics.
And then I'm pulling all this out, I'm covered in grease,
and I just was like, it's just a lot, and
it's all of the little things, and yeah, washing the
car like everything is up to us now, and I'm
(31:26):
very grateful to have help with some of those things.
Washing the car is just something I can't bring myself
to do. I don't know. Matt just did that and
he actually enjoyed it, and so for me that's too much.
So I just now pay to get it washed. And
I also don't think about it. I think my mental
load it like I'm so busy with trying to keep
up with everything else that I forget that the car
is dirty, like I can see and it absolutely annoys me.
(31:47):
But it's just pretty low on the priority order. So
often someone will be like, ash, you might need to
wash the car. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, thanks, Or
I have a beautiful friend that calls me he's like, hey,
actually need the lawns mode Oh yep, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I find sometimes that's helpful, but ultimately doing all the
jobs around the house, are you the same?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
And I think it also it's not the physical, but
it's the mental lowe Like when you're in a relationship
with someone, you both bring something to the table. You know.
I'm very much an overthinker, Like I can't make decisions
at all, Like I really struggle, like what's for dinner?
And I'm like, okay, Sean's like pick something Indian or Chinese.
I can't, Like, I can't decide you pick. So, you know,
it's like funny when you're in a relationship with someone,
(32:26):
you compliment each other in the way that I can't
decide he will make the decisions, or just in different
scenarios you compliment each other. Well, when you find your person,
you know what I mean, you both blend to become united,
you know. And I think when you don't have that
person with you anymore, the things that they used to
compliment you with are gone. You find yourself like I
(32:48):
found myself anyway, trying to take on this emotional load
where Sean would sometimes even it out, and there was
things that I did for Sean, and so it's almost
remembering who you were before you met them.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I think the biggest thing that we have learnt over
these couple of years is that is constant. It looks
different for everyone. I think that that is the biggest thing,
and that probably really ties back to those stages of grief,
is like we don't think it's this linear process. It's
so complicated and it's so unique even to us, Like
we have a lot of similarities in our grief, and
(33:20):
then we have a lot of differences and it's all valid.
I think that's the biggest lesson for me is that
it is individual. It's also going to be lifelong, and
we're going to keep working, like we've done a lot
of work to get to this point and to start
reclaiming our power and finding our joy again. And it's
going to continue so that we can keep discovering that
person and creating that life for ourselves and our family.
(33:42):
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