March 24, 2025 • 42 mins
In this powerful episode of Just Life and Lemons, we’re joined by Hugo Toovey, a two-time cancer survivor, keynote speaker, storyteller, and mental health advocate. Hugo shares his incredible journey of surviving 2 cancer diagnoses' and the crucial role early detection played in saving his life. He opens up about the emotional and physical toll cancer takes not just on the patient, but on their loved ones as well. Through his personal story, Hugo emphasises the importance of regular check-ups and how early detection can make all the difference. This conversation is a raw, inspiring reminder of the strength it takes to fight, and the courage it requires to support someone through their health battles.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apodje production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Please note that this conversation is a big one. Well,
we be discussing grief, loss and mental health. If this
isn't the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join
us on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just
Life and Lemons.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm Ash and I'm Kayla.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This podcast is all about embracing life's lemons and making
them into something beautiful. We've had a fair few lemons
thrown it away, but we're not letting that stop us.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Today we're joined by Hugo two V.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Welcome Hugo.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
You are a two times cancer survivor, mental health advocate,
keynote speaker, husband, new dad. The list goes on, Thank
you for being here today.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Thank you very much, Kaylas, Thank you Ash. It's a
privileged to be on your podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Now, can you tell us a little bit about your journey, Hugo.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Yeah, Look, I'd like to sort of start when I
sort to join the army, so I'm still serving in
the army. I'm a major in the Army and it's
been a big part of my life and the real
start of my health journey started in the army. In fact,
before I even went into that I lost my best mates.
He took his own life in the room next to me,
(01:20):
and I was only twenty one, he was twenty two.
So that was my first sort of experience with mental
illness and something like that. And then I think since
then we got a core group of mates. I like
to call them that. I got your for life mates,
those people in your life that I'm sure you've both
had over the years where you can pick the phone
up whatever time.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
And you know you've got that support.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
And I think it's so important to have that when
you're going through challenging times. And sure enough a year
or so went by and I was in my final
six months of military training, so it's four years all up.
I was twenty one, I was fit, supposedly healthy. It
was something like cancer did not even cross my mind.
And I remember the moment well. I was sitting in
(02:01):
my room eighteenth of June twenty thirteen. I called up
my old man and twish happy birthday, and then kind
of awkwardly, I said, Dad, I've got this weird lump
on my right testicle. And he said how long has
it been therefore made? And I said, look, probably over
six months even more and he said, don't be an idiot,
go to the doctor. But as a twenty one year
old bloke who's fit and you're in your final stint
(02:21):
of army training, you don't think much of it. And
I just sort of hope that it would just disappear.
And I just put it off, like a lot of
young blokes too, And it wasn't until my dad said
go to the doctor, and I walked in there and
eventually got told I had testicular cancer. But unfortunately, because
I put off that little I always say, picture little
frozen pea sized lump, it was there, it was hard,
(02:43):
it was painless, and it unfortunately spread through my body,
so it would have been pretty routine treatment meant type
to spend the next sort of a few years of
treatment recovery. I still managed to graduate before I commenced chemo,
but it did take a big chunk of my next
sort of a few years early twenties and the ups
and downs, the rollercoasters of chemotherapies and the anxiety of
follow on scans and all that stuff sort of stuff,
(03:05):
and you know, a couple of major surgeries, and eventually
got into a position where I got cancer free, which
I was very grateful for then got the five year
all clear mark. I was twenty six at that stage,
I was physically healthy, I'd moved to Britain with my partner,
and then the cherry on the cake was the complete remission.
I got lined up for a deployment and it's almost
(03:26):
like you could bloody click resume on your life, and.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
I thought, geez, that's a testicular cancer.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Part of my life was pretty interesting and I was
a proud survivor and I didn't think much of it now.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
But unfortunately, two months.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Later, after that feeling of freedom, two months later, I
started experiencing some bower complications.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
And I guess that's a young.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Twenty one year old me that learned the importance of
going to that doctor and not putting those things off.
I was pretty proactive with my health and that prompted
me to go to my doctor and he sent me
off for a colonoscopy and I woke up and eventually
found out that I had had bow cancer and it
was a completely separate cancer.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
It was nothing to do with testing cancer.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I've since done genetic testing because they've sat I could
have had a few mutator genes because it's quite unusual
to have both those cancers in your twenties, no mutator genes.
They've honestly put it down to a bit of bad luck,
which doesn't really help the situation. But that was yeah,
when I was twenty six, and I guess I got
it early enough that they could confidently treat it. But
since that point to where I am now at thirty two,
(04:27):
I've spent the last four or five six years of
my life with you know, I've had ten or so
abdominal surgeries, and I'm missing my large bow. I don't
have a colon erectum, missing part of my small bow.
I've got like an internal pouch thing, which is how
I function and go to the toilet, which took me
quite a bit of time to adjust to that. But
as I stand here today, it's talking to you too.
(04:48):
I'm in a pretty good place, albeit with the aftermath
of years and years of treatment and surgeries and all
that sort of stuff. My normal is very different to
other people's normal, but you learn to adapt and adjust.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
To what your normal is.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
And for me, I'm grateful, and I truly mean that
that I'm great from the fact I'm still here. I
think I remind myself of that all the time. It
sounds cliche, but I think it's cliche for a reason,
because I've got the opportunity to share my story to
do this advocacy work, and it's such purposeful work that
I love doing. So yeah, that's kind of a very
(05:22):
quick summary of my health journey from being twenty one
to where i'm today, being thirty two, last eleven years
of my life, and I guess we can explore bits
and pieces throughout that, but I guess the key thing too,
which I'd also love to talk about, is the mental
health side of cancer, and something initially I got very
used to kind of not talking about until it got
really bad, and it's something now that in a weird way,
(05:45):
I'm more of a even more passionate being sort of
a mental health advocate than I am with my cancer
stuff because I've seen the sides of mental illness and
you know when you don't treat that as well. So yeah,
there's been a journey, but I'm really grateful to be
here and talk to you too.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I was really going to touch on that point, Hugo,
because I imagine that once you had know you were
in remission, and things.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Are looking positive.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
You know, it was able to get back to normal life,
albeit in a different way, but at least sort of
close part of that chapter to be able to move on.
I imagine that then the second diagnosis, that must have been
a really big moment, Like I said, obviously for your
physical health, but certainly for that mental health to then
be back in that space.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Yes, spot on, Ash, it was.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
You've nailed that point in the fact that when I
first got diagnosed at twenty one, you kind of still
have that perception of you know, your bulletproof, you're young,
I'll beat this, even though you know it was still
an arduous for years, I kind of knew I was
going to beat it. And I think when you get
to that five year all clear, complete remission, you just
have this boost. You know, as you know Kayla better
(06:55):
than anyone. You know, cancer controls so many parts of
your life, and it's the anxiety of a follow up scan,
or will this surgery go well or this treatment go well?
And it just as a young in your twenties, you're
not doing the normal things that people do in their twenties,
but you kind of get used to. For me anyway,
getting the positive news, and I guess that's when I
(07:16):
felt like that whole part of me was behind me
and as you touched on ash, it wasn't until that
you have bow cancer diagnosis, and it was so foreign.
I often joke and say that I love talking about
testical on my bloody testicular cancer guru.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
I was on forum sites.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I've got a fake NATA, do bloody drunken party trips,
you name it, and it's testicular cancers was like my
go to everything there was to know about it. So
then when you find yourself being told you've got a
completely separate cancer, which at the time I thought was
that older person's cancer that people died from, it was
the first time at that point in my life where
(07:52):
I felt scared that I wouldn't get through it, and
that was probably the start of the declinent of my
mental health. So I think it's really challenging when you're
kind of on cloud nine and life's kind of plan
and then just in instant you come crashing right down.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
You do have you know, this sucks y me? What
did I do to deserve this?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And it puts you in such a downward spiral, and
at that stage I didn't really know how to navigate
that and deal with that, and I kind of just
put on a bit of a guard and felt like
I had to be that positive person all the time.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And I think as well, obviously you've you know, then
had two cancer diagnosis in your twenties, which is uncommon,
and that must have felt isolating.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, I think it's a good point to raise and
that I felt like there wasn't much awareness or advocacy
in that young adult space. You know, there's lots with
children and childhood cancers, which as there should be, and
it's fantastic to see all these camp qualities and these platforms.
And then there's sort of when you get a bit older.
You know, when you turn fifty, you get your screening
kits and your mammogram tests, and it's almost like that's
(08:54):
when people start to take their health seriously and that's
when they start to think that these things happen to them.
But you know that young adult twenties, thirties, forties, you're
in this bit of a gray area, and especially your
twenties because typically you've moved out of home, you might
have finished your degree, you might have started a new job.
Something like cancer is absolutely not on your radar, let
(09:14):
alone going and fan your checkups and acting on this stuff.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
So you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
You do feel like you're an outlier when you're going
through it, and you do feel like all your mates
and everyone around you they don't really understand what you're
going through. And it took me a while, you know,
I think that was before the real Instagram took off
where you see so many fantastic groups and obviously Kayla,
you know, your Cancer Collective group and stuff like that,
which starts to connecting people that are going through that,
(09:41):
because at the time, you definitely do feel alone, and
I think that makes it a makes it a lot
harder when you have an old schoolmate companies at you're
in hospital and you can tell they don't really not
to say that not the right thing to say is
to someone going through cancer treatment or recovering from surgery.
So you definitely feel feel isolated.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
And I think that was the purpose of Cancer Collective
when that came to life, was that isolation. You know,
you get diagnosed cancer in your thirties and it's like
you just don't even think about that being an option,
and you when I remember when Sean was diagnosed. That
was where Cancer Collective kind of came from, is because
we looked for support groups and it's seventy plus and
it's a lot more common for someone that age to
(10:19):
get cancer, and I was like, well, where's all the
young people? We can't be the only ones, and they
just was not support networks and pages for young adults.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So that's kind of how that came about.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
And I think the key message driving that was also,
you are not invincible in your twenties and thirties.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
You really are not.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
And it's only when you hear about a friend or
a family member being diagnosed with cancer as a young
adult that you're made aware of that. So I don't
know about you, Huo, but I get really frustrated when
people come to me and they're like, oh, I've had
this like lump or I've had this bump or this
rash or this scar or this something and something's not right,
but I'll be.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Fine, and I'm just like, what, go to the doctor.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
And it's even more frustrating when it's someone close to
your My father in law wouldn't mind me saying this,
but you know, he knows what I've gone through. He
knows what I advocate for, you know, go for your doctor,
don't wait until it's too late, be proactive with your health.
And he had one of these, turned fifty, had his
screening kits, just sitting there in the bathroom drawer, and
every time I'd see him, I'd say, Andy, have you
taken you bloody screening test yet?
Speaker 5 (11:17):
And He's like, no, no, I'll get around.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
So and this has been on f like over a year,
almost two years, and I kept bloody and I'm eventually
just found out and said, Andy, how do you expect
me to go out there and deliver a presentation and
have hoped that people are going to actually act on
what I'm saying when I can't even get my father
in law to do it anyway. Sure enough, he eventually
did it. He actually detected blood. He went to have
a colonoscopy there and moved some polyps and fortunately he's fine.
(11:40):
But the point is he did it, and he said, gee,
that was a bit easy than I thought. And he
felt so good that he had done it. And I said, see,
that's why we talk about this, That's why we've got
to do it.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
Don't just sit there not.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Taking things that you shield, or like you said, Kayla,
sit there with a lump on your testicle, lump on
your breast, this weird looking mole that's been there for
a few months, and you know deep down you should
go to a doctor, but you just make excuses. And
it's you shouldn't have to hear stories like mine or
stories like Sean's where you think that that's what gets
people to the doctor. You should just be in a
(12:11):
position where you go. You know what I'm now on adults.
You know, I don't live with mum and dad, I
don't have a family GP. I'm going to just book
in to see a local GP, have an annual check up,
or go get this lump checked.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
And you know it's not too tough.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
But you're right, it's the challenges of getting people to
get the foot in the door.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I think.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
And I think the next part to that is I
look back at Sean's diagnosis and we kind of find
out he had his cancer because he had a pain
in his rib cage.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
That's how it all sparked.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And he was like, I've got this sore muscle and
he's like, I've probably just done something at the gym,
and I was like, Okay, keep an eye on it.
And a couple of weeks later it wasn't going away.
I'm like, go see the doctor.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
So he did.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
He booked in and the doctor was basically like, oh,
you literally have You've just pulled a muscle at the gym.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Either that or you have cancer. Ha ha.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
And Sean came home and told me that, and I
was like, that's an odd thing to say, you know,
And I think it put a little bit of doubt
in his mind. And it was a couple days later,
with a bit of force from me, I'm like, go
back and challenge that, and he did it.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
He went back and he's like, no, like something's not right.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
And it really took him having to go back to
prompt that second appointment, prompting no, I want another test.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
There has to be something else you can look at,
and he did.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
He went back and he obviously had a CT scan
and that's when he was diagnosed.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
They call him and told him he had cancer and
his abdomen.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
But it took him going back a second time. So
I guess my question for you, you know someone who's gone
through that, what advice would you give to someone who
feels like their doctor has said one thing, and they
want to challenge it.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I think the other thing there that's really difficult is
that fortunately Sean had someone like yourself who was like Sean,
you know, go back. But for a lot of guys, especially,
I find that it takes a lot of almost carriage
for them to step their foot in the door, see
their doctor in GP and then it's almost like sometimes
take what they say as gospel and they come home
and say, oh, yeah, no, he said it's all good,
(14:01):
or it's just this, So sometimes that it's almost that
they want to think that right.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
So sometimes you need someone like yourself.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
But my advice is that generally speaking, even if people
don't admit it, you know your body better than anyone else, right,
So if you know, generally speaking, they call you gut
instinct if you know that something's just not quite right.
And the medical advice they say is the two week rule.
So they say, like, if your bows are playing up
for more than two weeks, if you've got that lump
that's been there for more than two weeks, that's usually
(14:30):
big enough sample size for you to go, Okay, it's
still there.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
Another week goes but it's still here.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
No I'm going to go back or this gashtro stop
they gave me because my bows were playing up isn't
really working. So I guess the point there is if
you're listening to this and your bows are playing up,
and you've got a bit of diary and not to
just rush off to the doctor after a couple of days,
but if it's been going on for a couple of weeks,
it's a good sample size. And then if you get
sort of turned away like unfortunately Sean did that first time,
(14:57):
and you do hear it a lot, especially with something
like bowercamps for young people, because a lot of gps
are still in that old school mindset that young people
can't get bow cancer. Speak to your loved ones, if
you have a partner, a parent, a sibling, speak to
them about it, exactly what Sean did to you. And
if it just doesn't sound right and it's just a
bit of this sort of gray area of did it
(15:17):
really solve what's going on? Or was it kind of
just like a mask. Here's a script for some medication
and you kind of you still confused. Absolutely, U should
either go back to that GP or get a second
or even third opinion. And I've met plenty of people
who encourage plenty of people when they've come back they
just did not like their GP. And GPS are like
any profession. You get very good GPS, you get not
(15:40):
so good GPS, and you even get to the far
right old school gps who are just you know, they're
not in the current way of thinking with these sort
of things. So if you don't like your GP, you
don't have to go back and see that GP. We
live in a country where we have access to healthcare.
We're so fortunate to have that access and usually where
you live there are multiple different sort of GPS or
(16:00):
practices you can go to.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
So that's my advice.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
On that is, if you're just something in you telling
you that, you know what, I'm not happy with what
I was just told, then it's your body.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
It's not the GP's body.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
There's nothing stopping you from picking the phone up and
booking an appointment and to see another GP. You know,
get even a third opinion, because sometimes that's what it
takes to someone to actually take you seriously and they
can kind of say, hey, I get what you're saying.
Let's run a few tests, Let's go for a ct scan,
So be proactive. Don't give up. If you hear some
news you don't think it's right, do exactly what Sean did.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Go back to that GP, or go see another one
that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
It's really about trusting that gut and not everyone does
have that support person where they can come and discuss
the appointment and get that feedback, but certainly not being
afraid to ask again, whether that be that same person
or a different doctor or someone else another professional.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Right, And I think people think that GPS or health
professionals what they say is gospel, and there are some
fantastic doctors out there, but you can't just take what
they say as being must be that, you know, It's
like not even every GP is going to know the
exact condition that you've got so exactly right, trust your
guden and don't take for what GPS say has always
(17:12):
been completely right.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
So if we're talking about I guess your diagnosis now, Hugo,
as I know you know, being diagnosed with cancer doesn't
just affect you, it affects the loved ones around you.
How did they navigate that alongside you?
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Look, it's an interesting one because when I first got diagnosed,
I was.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
I was young, twenty one.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
I was a single bloke, lived away from home, so
it was actually pretty challenging because I kind of shared
some of it with my mates, but I actually didn't
tell many people, and in fact, there was plenty of
mates that I didn't even tell, even when I was
going through chemo. You know, a lot of mates thought
that I just shaved my head because that's what you
do on the army and you want to look tough.
I think, to be honest, I felt really embarrassed in
(17:52):
how I looked, and I didn't really know how to
talk to people about it. So it definitely is a
lot more challenging when you don't have that immediate partner
or that immediate support. Of course, my parents and family
were supportive, but then it almost flied entirely when I
then met my now wife and she went on that
journey with me, and then when I got diagnosed with
bow cancer, it's completely changed. You know, sitting there next
(18:15):
to her hearing that news, you know, she had to
handle my knee and she was getting quite emotional, and
I was getting quite emotional because in that point you
realize that this doesn't just impact me, you know, it
has these ripple effects of impacting loved ones, and I
think that's where I felt like I was also causing
them so much pain. And to this day, I still
(18:36):
feel like I cause Amber, you know that pain from
when I'm unwell and I'm back in hospital with our abstractions,
and I know it's so stressful and so difficult for
her to go through it. And that's what I think
I just probably underestimated when I was a young lad
that knew I'd get through it. Is when you're a
bit older and you've got these loved ones in your life,
you realize that they're going through this with you. And
(18:58):
I actually often say that in many respects, it's harder
for the care it's harder for the support person. Katie,
you've experienced this because you still need to function, you
still need to live your normal life. You know you've
got your job, You need to try and be positive.
You know you're supporting your loved one going through this.
You're often the ones you know relaying the updates to family,
and you're kind of that rock in the situation. Whereas
(19:19):
the person going through the cancer journey, like myself, it's
you're almost in this bubble.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
You know, you're in hospital. My whole world revolves.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Around, you know, the next test, the next treatment, where
Amber she goes through it and still has.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
To function and live a normal life.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
So I think it's off in many respects, a lot
harder for the care and the support person. But as
I learned the hard way, it's important to talk to
them about how you're feeling and be open and honest
with that, because for too long I put on this
front and amb would every day come in and bring
up the little frozen watermelon, whatever I could eat, and
I'd kind of be cracking jokes and smiling and pretending
(19:54):
hours fine, and then as soon as she would leave,
I'd often burst into tears and you know, numb myself
on the painkillers, and I was just in.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Such an unhappy place.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
But I didn't want to show that to Amber because
I felt like I had to be strong for her,
because if I was upset and telling her how I
really felt, I felt like, how the hell is she
going to react to that?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
So it was a really challenging time.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
It's something that I don't think spoken about enough with
that sort of cancer diagnosis, and when you're going through
it is the mental health side of it and how
you can express that to your loved ones can be
really challenging.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
So when you talk about Amber obviously supporting you through
that journey, I know that there will be people listening
to this podcast who are currently.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Caring for a loved one with cancer.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Now that you've been through that, is there any wisdom
sort of hindsight that you could share with them.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
Yeah, Look, it's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
I think for me, I sometimes liked in moments pretending
that I wasn't going through it. I wasn't going to
this cancer bubble that I was in because you're constantly
seeing nurses and doctors, and so when Amber would come in,
or when my dad or mum would come in, often
liked when they spoke to me about what's going on
there where. Or I had a ship day at work,
(21:06):
my boss was being a prick orp you know, did
you see the body Adelaide Crows have a good Win
on the weekend, and you know, we watch the show
together and you kind of escape a little bit because
you kind of still want to feel normal. I think
you have to really try and and it's hard to
do because it's your entire world. But you can't just
solely talk about what you're going through and your life,
and you know, people then kind of dismiss their issues.
(21:29):
So then Amber I found out probably six months a
year later, that she had her own health struggles going
through all this sort of stuff, but she didn't want
to tell me about that because she said, oh, it's
nothing compared to what you're going through. And the important
part is to try and treat someone going through something
like cancer as a normal person and not a cancer patient.
And then when they start doing that, it then makes
the person going through it also feel like, hey, even
(21:52):
though I'm going through this, I can actually still support
my wife, my partner, my best mate. You know, I
can give advice to my dad who's going through relationship troubles, etc.
And it actually distracts you from the real shitty stuff
that's going on. So that's a key bit of advice
which really helped me. If you're a Cara, don't think
when you go in there and you start talking about
the issues in your life or work or you know,
(22:12):
did you hear my friend buddy got pregnant on the weekend,
all this sort of stuff. He's so important to do
that because all of a sudden that cancer patient isn't
just a cancer patient. They're a normal person that's part
of everyday life as well. And that's something that once
I communicated that, people kind of knew that, and there
was still that banter. You know, I'd have mates come
in that was still like paying me out, or there's
a bit of that friendly band we're talking about the
(22:34):
footy teams and stuff like that, not kind of tiptying
around thinking, you know, they can't say something or you know,
this poor guy sitting over here, because that eventually gets
pretty draining.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I often say in the context of grief, people ask me, oh,
you know, I'm sorry if I said something bad, or
you know, what's the right thing to say.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Like I'm in the grief as well, and we're navigating it,
so I imagine.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
It's probably similar in this regard.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Is also to know that there is no right or
wrong and that we're all figured it out together, whether
you're the patient or the care Would you agree with.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
That, Yeah, I think that's such a really good point
to highlight ash And you know, I know you've gone
through your own immense challenges around that, and I'm sure
you've had people that you've probably grown apart from because
they didn't really know what to say.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
And I've had similarly.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I'd really close friends, for example, that I didn't really
speak to for a good year or a couple of years,
and then I'd randomly see them when I was recovering.
And that's so mate, I've been following your long. How
you be. Look, I wanted to give you a caller,
send your message, but man, I just I felt like
you would have had so much, so many people there,
and I didn't really know what to say. And I'm
sure you both can agree with this, that someone reaching
(23:41):
out saying exactly that, Hey, hugo, Ash Kayla, I have
no idea what you're going through. I have no idea
what to say, but hey, I just wanted to just
check in. I'm here, Can I drop in the seas
there anything I can do that's something like that goes
a long way, And I think that's what people underestimate.
They don't need to have the answers because, like you said, Ash,
the person in the bed or the going to the grief,
(24:03):
we don't have the answers either. So simply just you know,
ficking someone a message, give them a call. Like I said,
it doesn't have to be related to that grief or
that cancer. It could be a if a mate message
me said, bloody, how I'm sick of these guys losing?
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Or how good is that win on the weekend. That's awesome.
I'm still connecting with this person.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
They don't always have to be like mate, So tell
me how you going house today?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Because you know what, you get a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I think just someone reaching out, someone connecting with you,
having that interaction with someone is so much better than
someone just you're not hearing from someone for six months
or a year.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
And I don't know if neither of you.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Experienced that when you've had people in your life that
you seem to be close with and for some reason
you didn't really hear from them for a while.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I don't know if you experienced that.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, I have, and it's it's tricky, I think for
both parties involved, because people don't know what to say,
so they just go silent, and I like, I respect that. Yeah,
there's certainly friendships of mine that have changed, and not
just my friendships, but mutual friendships. And I think for me,
I find it devastating it actually, but I get it,
(25:06):
and I try and be really respectful of that other
person because like I'm a different person as well. So
obviously it's heavy. I think where I struggle now is
I don't have all of the stories about Matt to
share with the kids. So that's where my devastation comes from.
I'm devastated that the friendship has changed, but I can
(25:27):
see why, and I try to be understanding of that.
But I'm more devastated for the children because there are
stories that I just don't have, And you know, we
talk about Matt every single day and he's very present.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
However, there are gaps.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
We still have obviously a big collection of friends who
will be able to feel but I am very conscious
that there are still gaps that the kids will miss
out on. And that's devastating for me because I feel
the devastation for the kids and for Matt because I
know that he would have shared those stories. And so
that's a heavy one.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
Thanks for sharing that, Ash.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
It's talk about losing the friendships, but I'm sure you've
had those that have either surprised you in a really
good way and you've created like these absolute rocks in
your life where they've just come in there at the
right time, and then to this day they're like the
closest person in your life.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Have you had the flip side of that?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Absolutely, And I think in a way that is surprising
and beautiful at the same time. Because there was a
quote that I found recently. It was something along the
lines of isn't it amazing to know that some of
your best friends you haven't met yet? And I think
we sort of grow up with childhood friends and uni
friends or whatever, anyboy thinking oh, these are our friends,
(26:37):
and then you do get surprised and Kayla is that
person for me.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
And you know, the amazing thing.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
About how Kayla and I met was through a Widows
of Brisbane page. However, we've actually realized that we've joined
the dots and we used to work together twelve years ago.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
That's so good, which is wild.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
And we often say that people come into your life
when you least expect it and when do you need
them the most, And you know, realistically, we've not been
friends for all that long in this chapter of our life,
so it's quite amazing that the universe has put us together.
And the ironic part of that is that obviously there's
that work history, but also we live a kilometer away
(27:18):
from each other, so we're isolated and felt isolated in
this grief journey, and then we came together and we went,
oh my god, we could if we really wanted to.
It's a little bit hot in Brisbane, but we could
actually walk to each other's homes. And our kids are
the best of friends.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Max often calls our kids my triplets, and he often says,
how am I going to manage three of them at once?
I was like, let me know. When you figure that out,
let me know. So that's really beautiful.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
How beautiful set relationship? If you don't mind me asking
you how long? But when did you first connect?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think it's like being twelve months this year, so
it's not a long time.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
But what's really beautiful is that it was almost instant friendship,
and it was an easy friendship. And you know, we've
been through so much where making new adult friends can
be really taxing and explaining your whole story and all
that sort of stuff, but with us, we're just there's
no bullshit, so easy.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Yeah you need that, And I love that quote act
and it's so true.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Is that you could have these lifelong friends, and you
know what, they're going to be lifelong friends, but they're
different friends. You know, you might get your old schoolmates.
What the friendship you guys have is something so unique
and special, and I think it's a really beautiful thing
that You're right. It doesn't matter if you've known each
other for a month, a year, you know, two years.
You can just become this special bond and this deep
(28:35):
connection which you might not have with anyone else, and
you just almost know that you'll be really close friends
for the rest of your life, which is such.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
A such a lovely thing.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I think the other great thing is that, yeah, to
your point, yes, there's been some friendships that have changed,
and there's been friendships that have become even stronger and
again felt so organic and beautiful. And there's some friends
that I can think of in my grief journey who
I wouldn't have necessarily expected to become so close with,
(29:05):
and they have become such an important part not just
a friendship for me, but as part of our family.
And that's another thing that is special with those friends
and also with Kayler, is it's actually not just a
friendship with me as the adult or the parent or
the widow. It's the children and they have their own bond,
and then together we have like this beautiful bond when
we all hang out and get fish and chips in
(29:27):
the park and things like that. But that's really special
is that they've got their own bond. And I love
that they will be able to support each other. You know,
as mums, we can support our kids in our own way,
but they will support each other as well. And I
think that has been both such a beautiful friendship and
really yes, in twelve months.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
But geez, what's going to happen after two years with
you guys?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Oh wait and see watch out?
Speaker 5 (29:50):
Now that's lovely. I love hearing that hugo you.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Obviously, as you've explained, you've had a lot of lemons
thrown your way throughout your life, and that obviously hasn't
come without mental health challenges, which I believe is why
you're now such a big advocate in that space. Can
you share a little bit about that story and how
you got to where you are now?
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Yeah, I think the best way to describe it is
I actually show this in I do a presentational workshop.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
Is there's this photo of me that might be.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
All too close for home for you, Caleb, because I'm
sure Sean had similar with all the scars and the
external bag and you've lost a lot of weight and
you look on well. And I think anyone can see
that photo or that person go they look unwell. And
I think these particular photos are selfie in the mirror,
and I was just very unhappy, whereas all the other photos,
you know, I was smiling and I looked like I
(30:39):
was doing pretty well, and that was kind of you know,
the behind the scenes and this selfie in the hospital
room of when I'm just having my top off and
physically I look on well, but I look at that
face and I just can put myself into that moment.
And I was so mentally unhappy, depressed, and there were
stages I just didn't actually want to be there. But
I didn't ever tell anybody that I didn't, you know,
(31:00):
not even my wife and my parents, nobody.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
I just kept that all to myself.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
And and I think that's because I felt that I
had to be this strong person all the time. And
I think the reason why I like reflecting on that
photo is because sometimes something like cancer, when you're going
through a physical illness. It's a lot easier to see,
it's a lot easier to treat. And I remember I'd
be in hospital and there'd be doctors with clipbores, and
(31:24):
I had a pain specialist, and the nurses would come
in and check your bloody, heart rate and blood pressure
and put you on these nutrients and they're doing everything
they could to keep you alive. But during that whole time,
I didn't have anyone or anything to do with my
mental health, nothing to look after that, and it was
a really light bulb moment really for me. I'm like, here,
I am with like ten different doctors and specialists and
(31:45):
nurses and everything, but there was nothing about how you're going,
you know, how you're struggling with this. It was just
it was very much to let's treat the cancer, which
I get that's what they needed to do. But it
was that moment where I realized I had to do
a bit more for my mental health too, and that's
when I started to open up to Amber a bit more.
And it was actually my Army GP who recognized I
was really struggling, and he actually referred me to a
(32:07):
psychologist in the hospital. And it's the first time of
my adult life that i'd first seen a psychologist and
she actually came into the hospital and she sat down
with me and she.
Speaker 5 (32:18):
Just let me unpack things.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
And little did I know that psychologists are really just
people that listen to you and it says talking therapy,
and they're unbiased and they let you just before I
know it, I'm just like unloading things for an hour,
which I hadn't done before, and it made things make
a bit more sense. It made me feel seen, It
made me feel justified in how I was feeling, that
you can actually have cancer and be shrugging with your
(32:40):
mental health too. And then I started to treat my
mental health no different to how I was treating my cancer,
and it's looking at it in the same light. And
I often say to people too, when I was at
my lowest of lows and I really didn't want to
be there, and I was in such a dark place,
some of the pain I was experiencing with those thoughts
those emotions was often more painful than some of that
(33:00):
physical stuff that I was going through. And I think
it can just put a bit of a spotlight on
for those who have never experienced poor mental health or
mental illness. When people are struggling, or when people are
at the very end of what they're going through in
severe crisis, the pain they're experiencing is truly painful. It's
not like having a bad day or a week. They're
(33:21):
in such a bad place. And I think we've got
to start looking in that same way. And I think
the more I started doing that, the more I realized
it justified in how I was feeling, and the fact
that I could actually treat it was almost like what
you're telling me, that I can actually treat this.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
I just thought this is how I'd feel forever.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
It took a long time, and to this day, I
still see a psychologist, and I still do my gratitude journaling,
and I still have days or weeks where I'm not
in a very good place. But I put my hand
up and now say to Amber, I'm really not having
a great day, and I don't know what it is.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
And guess what we talk about it.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
I see my psychologists and do the things that I've
worked to doing, and mindfulness and the breath work, and
you can actually help yourself, no different to if you're
recovering from a cancer surgery. You get up, you physically
need to keep moving, you do all those sort of
things that they tell you to do. And that was
kind of that moment in my life where I made
a big shift and I realized I didn't have to
just keep quiet.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
I didn't have to go through this by myself.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Because a lot of time, when you're going through these
and you have these really bad mental thoughts and you're
in a really bad place, you feel very isolated. Nothing
can be very hard to talk to someone about that.
And even for me, opening up to my wife was
so difficult, which I did never thought that would be
the case. We have such an open relationship, but I
just couldn't break that barrier. So it's something that I
(34:36):
continue to work on. It's something that you know, I
don't think you're ever just mentally healthy and yeay that
we meet the rest of my life. It's something that
you've got to keep working on. You're going to have
days and weeks that you feel like you've gone backwards
a bit. But it's like your physical fitness after a
bloody Christmas break of eating and drinking too much and
you go, jeez, and you need to get back into
(34:57):
some of that exercise. I feel like you have the
same that version of you know, looking after your mental
health where you feel like you just slipped back a
bit and you got that, so okay, I'm going to
work myself back into it, become mentally mentally fit, not
just physically fits. So yeah, it's a work in progress,
but that's kind of how it stemmed from that really
difficult time in hospital.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I love the way you've explained that that, Yeah, after
that Christmas break, we're all a little sluggish, you know,
need to get back into that routine and we know
it and we do something about it. And I think
we do need to apply a similar thinking to the
mental health. You know, unlike the when you're talking about
all the observations in hospital, they've got the numbers, they've
got the metrics to check your heart rate, etc. You know,
we just don't have that. The mind is complex, so
(35:37):
we don't have that with their mental health. So to
continue working on that routine and acknowledge yep, Okay I
slipped a bit behind and that's okay, what do I
need to do to get back to that point? So
thanks for explaining it in that way. That was really great.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
No, no no worries, And I think it falls into
that invisible illness side of things too, which you can't
often see. And mental health and mental illness is so
complex that someone with Bower cancer typically has, you know,
that same treatment as that person with Bower cancer. There
are a few other little path you can take, but
someone with x mental illness or who might be depressed
that might work from that might not. You know, they
(36:10):
might be very good at putting on that mask, and
so it's a lot harder. So it makes you feel
a bit more sort of isolated, you know, you think
you're going through it by yourself.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
So yeah, it's a really important one.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
And like you said, Kayla, like everything I've gone through
and regardless, I'll always be a cancer advocate, but I
think it's taught me over the years why the mental
health conversation in mental Fitness is such a great terminology
because it makes people realize that this stuff is so important.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yeah, and we've acknowledged that obviously. You know, dealing with
a cancer diagnosis or mental health, it's a lot easier
when you have that support person with you. What advice
do you give to people though, who might be suffering
with mental health who don't have that support person by
their side.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
Yeah, and that's a it's a really tough one and
it's something that it's so important for me to be
reminded of that myself. And you know, I've done talk
where I've finished and shared my story and my presentation,
and I've had people come up and I've got this
one guy in my head and it was a taught
recently earlier this year who came up and literally asked
(37:14):
me a similar question. And when you've got and I
always say, when you're lucky enough to have all that support.
I am so lucky that I've got family, support, beautiful partner,
great group of friends.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
I've got a supportive workplace.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
You know, sometimes I think you take that for granted,
but you don't realize how much that does for you.
I couldn't imagine what it would be like going through
what I've gone through not having any of that. I
don't even know if I'd still be here. So if
you're that person who doesn't have that support network, there's
two things I'll say, I'll leave the second one to
finish off on. The first one is finding if there
(37:49):
is just that one person. Now, I know we said
if you don't have anyone, but often we think that
it needs to be family members, a partner. It could
be a colleague, it could be an old friend. But
having someone just that one person that you can connect
with with a hobby, just a similar passion where you
can connect with, and that could be as simple as
the pub or it could be as simple as you know,
(38:10):
State of Orange is on and old Matt also goes
for New South Wales and just finding that little bit
of connection that you've both got something similar with and
then developing that particular relationship. And I've seen that work
before when someone kind of started to put themselves out there.
Speaker 5 (38:23):
It's kind of like not just finding a partner.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
They wanted to find a friend, and they did that
by finding a common interest and a common hobby or
a passionate straight away. There's none of that awkward small
talk because you can just connect and talk about goal
for swimming or whatever you want to talk about that
if you still don't have that and you're in that space,
if i'd have nothing, I've got no friends in min
I've burnt every bridge possible, I mean, absolute crisis. And
this is the guy recently, my recommendation to him and
(38:47):
he actually did it, which is amazing.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
Is animals Now.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I say this because when I was in hospital and
I was really struggling, Amber actually got me my Ernie.
Who's my little therapy dog, and she literally we basically
said yep, here's your puppy, and she knew I was
in a bad way. I wasn't really getting out of
the couch. She then had to start going to work,
and having a little dog did so much for my
mental health because you've got a little mate. Dogs aren't
(39:12):
like humans. There's no judgment. They love you for you.
They don't care that you're having a bad day or
a good day. They'll still treat you the same. But
it gives you a little bit of purpose. And I
vividly a memory I used to just get up and
have to little feed Ernie.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
I take them for a little walk.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
You get me off the couch, and you develop such
a beautiful special bond. And this guy who reached out,
I followed him up and so much so that he
wasn't employed. Unfortunately, he was addicted to drugs and he
was in a really bad way. He since now not
only got a dog, he's part of a group called
Delta Therapy Dogs and essentially you can take your own
dog and train him up to be a therapy dog,
(39:47):
and then you can take that dog to go into hospitals.
I volunteer once a month with Ernie. We go to
Saint Vincent's Hospital palliative care. People are end of life,
and I walked through the hospital with Ernie and people
who are missing their dogs. They just smile and then
he jumps up on their bed and I leave there
and I feel fantastic. You know, I've got this like
boost of men health. You've just made these people smile,
your little mates wagging his tail next to you, and
(40:09):
it's such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
So that's what I will see.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
I think you can hear Ernie bark now, actually on
que you can hear I'm talking about it.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
Anyway, I think, to.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Me, that's something that if you're listening to this and
you don't know what to do next, you don't know
who to talk to. Don't underestimate the power of animals
and dog therapy and healing because they do so much
for you, but you don't even realize you can actually
turn that into a new found passion. I mean, if
you want to know more or find out more, reach
out and I can point you in the right directions.
But the group I work with called Delta Therapy Dogs,
(40:37):
and it truly is one of the things that to
this day people say, what's your happy place?
Speaker 5 (40:42):
What do you do to boost your mental health?
Speaker 4 (40:44):
I literally leave my phone at home, I go for
a walk with Ernie, I talk to other crazy dog
people out there, the owners, and you just feel great
and you watch him sniff around, you throw the ball,
and that's being in the present. That's mindfulness, that's looking
after your mental health. So it doesn't always have to
be humans, believe it or not. And you can start
small and get a little dog and he can be
your best at all mate. And I promise you he
(41:05):
can do wonders or she can do wonders for your
mental health.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
That's such a good idea. Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Often we default too journaling or therapies and things like that,
but I really love that fresh perspective. I just want
to say thank you so much. You've shared so much.
I think that we could all sit here for hours
and continue talking, and I just wanted to say thank
you so much. But before we wrap up, is there
a way that people can connect with you again? To
follow your journey and what you're doing now in the
(41:32):
advocacy space.
Speaker 5 (41:33):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
If you want to reach out through social media is
probably the best avenue. Or if you're listening to this
in you've got a workplace that you're at and I
do workshops, and I work with a group called Gotcha
for Life and we do this sort of mental fitness workshops.
We get out there and I've even brought Ernie to
some of them too, so it's a pretty cool thing.
But yeah, I love connecting with people, and you know,
(41:55):
I love when people can open up and share something
that you're going through. And I take that as a
privilege if you've got someone that can feel comfortable enough
to share something they're going through, So absolutely give to
give you the time to have a chat and talk
to about anything you want to. And who knows, we
can ye potentially cross paths and come to your workplace
and meet you in person, just like you two. I'd
(42:16):
love to love to go to Brisbane again soon and
maybe we can all sit down and grab a coffee.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Love that awesome, Thanks Hugo, It's been really great connecting again.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Thanks so much for having me and look forward to
following along the podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Thank you, Thanks Hugo.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
If you loved this episode, please don't keep it a secret,
Share it with a friend on social media and tag
us at just life and Lemons. Please click the follow
button and leave us a review. Just Life and Lemons
is not a mental health service or a substitute for
professional mental health advice, treatment, or assessment. Any conversations in
this podcast are general in nature. If you are struggling,
(42:55):
please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on one three,
one four
Apodje production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Please note that this conversation is a big one. Well,
we be discussing grief, loss and mental health. If this
isn't the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join
us on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just
Life and Lemons.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm Ash and I'm Kayla.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This podcast is all about embracing life's lemons and making
them into something beautiful. We've had a fair few lemons
thrown it away, but we're not letting that stop us.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Today we're joined by Hugo two V.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Welcome Hugo.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
You are a two times cancer survivor, mental health advocate,
keynote speaker, husband, new dad. The list goes on, Thank
you for being here today.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Thank you very much, Kaylas, Thank you Ash. It's a
privileged to be on your podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Now, can you tell us a little bit about your journey, Hugo.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Yeah, Look, I'd like to sort of start when I
sort to join the army, so I'm still serving in
the army. I'm a major in the Army and it's
been a big part of my life and the real
start of my health journey started in the army. In fact,
before I even went into that I lost my best mates.
He took his own life in the room next to me,
(01:20):
and I was only twenty one, he was twenty two.
So that was my first sort of experience with mental
illness and something like that. And then I think since
then we got a core group of mates. I like
to call them that. I got your for life mates,
those people in your life that I'm sure you've both
had over the years where you can pick the phone
up whatever time.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
And you know you've got that support.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
And I think it's so important to have that when
you're going through challenging times. And sure enough a year
or so went by and I was in my final
six months of military training, so it's four years all up.
I was twenty one, I was fit, supposedly healthy. It
was something like cancer did not even cross my mind.
And I remember the moment well. I was sitting in
(02:01):
my room eighteenth of June twenty thirteen. I called up
my old man and twish happy birthday, and then kind
of awkwardly, I said, Dad, I've got this weird lump
on my right testicle. And he said how long has
it been therefore made? And I said, look, probably over
six months even more and he said, don't be an idiot,
go to the doctor. But as a twenty one year
old bloke who's fit and you're in your final stint
(02:21):
of army training, you don't think much of it. And
I just sort of hope that it would just disappear.
And I just put it off, like a lot of
young blokes too, And it wasn't until my dad said
go to the doctor, and I walked in there and
eventually got told I had testicular cancer. But unfortunately, because
I put off that little I always say, picture little
frozen pea sized lump, it was there, it was hard,
(02:43):
it was painless, and it unfortunately spread through my body,
so it would have been pretty routine treatment meant type
to spend the next sort of a few years of
treatment recovery. I still managed to graduate before I commenced chemo,
but it did take a big chunk of my next
sort of a few years early twenties and the ups
and downs, the rollercoasters of chemotherapies and the anxiety of
follow on scans and all that stuff sort of stuff,
(03:05):
and you know, a couple of major surgeries, and eventually
got into a position where I got cancer free, which
I was very grateful for then got the five year
all clear mark. I was twenty six at that stage,
I was physically healthy, I'd moved to Britain with my partner,
and then the cherry on the cake was the complete remission.
I got lined up for a deployment and it's almost
(03:26):
like you could bloody click resume on your life, and.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
I thought, geez, that's a testicular cancer.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Part of my life was pretty interesting and I was
a proud survivor and I didn't think much of it now.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
But unfortunately, two months.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Later, after that feeling of freedom, two months later, I
started experiencing some bower complications.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
And I guess that's a young.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Twenty one year old me that learned the importance of
going to that doctor and not putting those things off.
I was pretty proactive with my health and that prompted
me to go to my doctor and he sent me
off for a colonoscopy and I woke up and eventually
found out that I had had bow cancer and it
was a completely separate cancer.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
It was nothing to do with testing cancer.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I've since done genetic testing because they've sat I could
have had a few mutator genes because it's quite unusual
to have both those cancers in your twenties, no mutator genes.
They've honestly put it down to a bit of bad luck,
which doesn't really help the situation. But that was yeah,
when I was twenty six, and I guess I got
it early enough that they could confidently treat it. But
since that point to where I am now at thirty two,
(04:27):
I've spent the last four or five six years of
my life with you know, I've had ten or so
abdominal surgeries, and I'm missing my large bow. I don't
have a colon erectum, missing part of my small bow.
I've got like an internal pouch thing, which is how
I function and go to the toilet, which took me
quite a bit of time to adjust to that. But
as I stand here today, it's talking to you too.
(04:48):
I'm in a pretty good place, albeit with the aftermath
of years and years of treatment and surgeries and all
that sort of stuff. My normal is very different to
other people's normal, but you learn to adapt and adjust.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
To what your normal is.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
And for me, I'm grateful, and I truly mean that
that I'm great from the fact I'm still here. I
think I remind myself of that all the time. It
sounds cliche, but I think it's cliche for a reason,
because I've got the opportunity to share my story to
do this advocacy work, and it's such purposeful work that
I love doing. So yeah, that's kind of a very
(05:22):
quick summary of my health journey from being twenty one
to where i'm today, being thirty two, last eleven years
of my life, and I guess we can explore bits
and pieces throughout that, but I guess the key thing too,
which I'd also love to talk about, is the mental
health side of cancer, and something initially I got very
used to kind of not talking about until it got
really bad, and it's something now that in a weird way,
(05:45):
I'm more of a even more passionate being sort of
a mental health advocate than I am with my cancer
stuff because I've seen the sides of mental illness and
you know when you don't treat that as well. So yeah,
there's been a journey, but I'm really grateful to be
here and talk to you too.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I was really going to touch on that point, Hugo,
because I imagine that once you had know you were
in remission, and things.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Are looking positive.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
You know, it was able to get back to normal life,
albeit in a different way, but at least sort of
close part of that chapter to be able to move on.
I imagine that then the second diagnosis, that must have been
a really big moment, Like I said, obviously for your
physical health, but certainly for that mental health to then
be back in that space.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Yes, spot on, Ash, it was.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
You've nailed that point in the fact that when I
first got diagnosed at twenty one, you kind of still
have that perception of you know, your bulletproof, you're young,
I'll beat this, even though you know it was still
an arduous for years, I kind of knew I was
going to beat it. And I think when you get
to that five year all clear, complete remission, you just
have this boost. You know, as you know Kayla better
(06:55):
than anyone. You know, cancer controls so many parts of
your life, and it's the anxiety of a follow up scan,
or will this surgery go well or this treatment go well?
And it just as a young in your twenties, you're
not doing the normal things that people do in their twenties,
but you kind of get used to. For me anyway,
getting the positive news, and I guess that's when I
(07:16):
felt like that whole part of me was behind me
and as you touched on ash, it wasn't until that
you have bow cancer diagnosis, and it was so foreign.
I often joke and say that I love talking about
testical on my bloody testicular cancer guru.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
I was on forum sites.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I've got a fake NATA, do bloody drunken party trips,
you name it, and it's testicular cancers was like my
go to everything there was to know about it. So
then when you find yourself being told you've got a
completely separate cancer, which at the time I thought was
that older person's cancer that people died from, it was
the first time at that point in my life where
(07:52):
I felt scared that I wouldn't get through it, and
that was probably the start of the declinent of my
mental health. So I think it's really challenging when you're
kind of on cloud nine and life's kind of plan
and then just in instant you come crashing right down.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
You do have you know, this sucks y me? What
did I do to deserve this?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And it puts you in such a downward spiral, and
at that stage I didn't really know how to navigate
that and deal with that, and I kind of just
put on a bit of a guard and felt like
I had to be that positive person all the time.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And I think as well, obviously you've you know, then
had two cancer diagnosis in your twenties, which is uncommon,
and that must have felt isolating.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, I think it's a good point to raise and
that I felt like there wasn't much awareness or advocacy
in that young adult space. You know, there's lots with
children and childhood cancers, which as there should be, and
it's fantastic to see all these camp qualities and these platforms.
And then there's sort of when you get a bit older.
You know, when you turn fifty, you get your screening
kits and your mammogram tests, and it's almost like that's
(08:54):
when people start to take their health seriously and that's
when they start to think that these things happen to them.
But you know that young adult twenties, thirties, forties, you're
in this bit of a gray area, and especially your
twenties because typically you've moved out of home, you might
have finished your degree, you might have started a new job.
Something like cancer is absolutely not on your radar, let
(09:14):
alone going and fan your checkups and acting on this stuff.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
So you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
You do feel like you're an outlier when you're going
through it, and you do feel like all your mates
and everyone around you they don't really understand what you're
going through. And it took me a while, you know,
I think that was before the real Instagram took off
where you see so many fantastic groups and obviously Kayla,
you know, your Cancer Collective group and stuff like that,
which starts to connecting people that are going through that,
(09:41):
because at the time, you definitely do feel alone, and
I think that makes it a makes it a lot
harder when you have an old schoolmate companies at you're
in hospital and you can tell they don't really not
to say that not the right thing to say is
to someone going through cancer treatment or recovering from surgery.
So you definitely feel feel isolated.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
And I think that was the purpose of Cancer Collective
when that came to life, was that isolation. You know,
you get diagnosed cancer in your thirties and it's like
you just don't even think about that being an option,
and you when I remember when Sean was diagnosed. That
was where Cancer Collective kind of came from, is because
we looked for support groups and it's seventy plus and
it's a lot more common for someone that age to
(10:19):
get cancer, and I was like, well, where's all the
young people? We can't be the only ones, and they
just was not support networks and pages for young adults.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So that's kind of how that came about.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
And I think the key message driving that was also,
you are not invincible in your twenties and thirties.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
You really are not.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
And it's only when you hear about a friend or
a family member being diagnosed with cancer as a young
adult that you're made aware of that. So I don't
know about you, Huo, but I get really frustrated when
people come to me and they're like, oh, I've had
this like lump or I've had this bump or this
rash or this scar or this something and something's not right,
but I'll be.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Fine, and I'm just like, what, go to the doctor.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
And it's even more frustrating when it's someone close to
your My father in law wouldn't mind me saying this,
but you know, he knows what I've gone through. He
knows what I advocate for, you know, go for your doctor,
don't wait until it's too late, be proactive with your health.
And he had one of these, turned fifty, had his
screening kits, just sitting there in the bathroom drawer, and
every time I'd see him, I'd say, Andy, have you
taken you bloody screening test yet?
Speaker 5 (11:17):
And He's like, no, no, I'll get around.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
So and this has been on f like over a year,
almost two years, and I kept bloody and I'm eventually
just found out and said, Andy, how do you expect
me to go out there and deliver a presentation and
have hoped that people are going to actually act on
what I'm saying when I can't even get my father
in law to do it anyway. Sure enough, he eventually
did it. He actually detected blood. He went to have
a colonoscopy there and moved some polyps and fortunately he's fine.
(11:40):
But the point is he did it, and he said, gee,
that was a bit easy than I thought. And he
felt so good that he had done it. And I said, see,
that's why we talk about this, That's why we've got
to do it.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
Don't just sit there not.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Taking things that you shield, or like you said, Kayla,
sit there with a lump on your testicle, lump on
your breast, this weird looking mole that's been there for
a few months, and you know deep down you should
go to a doctor, but you just make excuses. And
it's you shouldn't have to hear stories like mine or
stories like Sean's where you think that that's what gets
people to the doctor. You should just be in a
(12:11):
position where you go. You know what I'm now on adults.
You know, I don't live with mum and dad, I
don't have a family GP. I'm going to just book
in to see a local GP, have an annual check up,
or go get this lump checked.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
And you know it's not too tough.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
But you're right, it's the challenges of getting people to
get the foot in the door.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I think.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
And I think the next part to that is I
look back at Sean's diagnosis and we kind of find
out he had his cancer because he had a pain
in his rib cage.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
That's how it all sparked.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And he was like, I've got this sore muscle and
he's like, I've probably just done something at the gym,
and I was like, Okay, keep an eye on it.
And a couple of weeks later it wasn't going away.
I'm like, go see the doctor.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
So he did.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
He booked in and the doctor was basically like, oh,
you literally have You've just pulled a muscle at the gym.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Either that or you have cancer. Ha ha.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
And Sean came home and told me that, and I
was like, that's an odd thing to say, you know,
And I think it put a little bit of doubt
in his mind. And it was a couple days later,
with a bit of force from me, I'm like, go
back and challenge that, and he did it.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
He went back and he's like, no, like something's not right.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
And it really took him having to go back to
prompt that second appointment, prompting no, I want another test.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
There has to be something else you can look at,
and he did.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
He went back and he obviously had a CT scan
and that's when he was diagnosed.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
They call him and told him he had cancer and
his abdomen.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
But it took him going back a second time. So
I guess my question for you, you know someone who's gone
through that, what advice would you give to someone who
feels like their doctor has said one thing, and they
want to challenge it.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I think the other thing there that's really difficult is
that fortunately Sean had someone like yourself who was like Sean,
you know, go back. But for a lot of guys, especially,
I find that it takes a lot of almost carriage
for them to step their foot in the door, see
their doctor in GP and then it's almost like sometimes
take what they say as gospel and they come home
and say, oh, yeah, no, he said it's all good,
(14:01):
or it's just this, So sometimes that it's almost that
they want to think that right.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
So sometimes you need someone like yourself.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
But my advice is that generally speaking, even if people
don't admit it, you know your body better than anyone else, right,
So if you know, generally speaking, they call you gut
instinct if you know that something's just not quite right.
And the medical advice they say is the two week rule.
So they say, like, if your bows are playing up
for more than two weeks, if you've got that lump
that's been there for more than two weeks, that's usually
(14:30):
big enough sample size for you to go, Okay, it's
still there.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
Another week goes but it's still here.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
No I'm going to go back or this gashtro stop
they gave me because my bows were playing up isn't
really working. So I guess the point there is if
you're listening to this and your bows are playing up,
and you've got a bit of diary and not to
just rush off to the doctor after a couple of days,
but if it's been going on for a couple of weeks,
it's a good sample size. And then if you get
sort of turned away like unfortunately Sean did that first time,
(14:57):
and you do hear it a lot, especially with something
like bowercamps for young people, because a lot of gps
are still in that old school mindset that young people
can't get bow cancer. Speak to your loved ones, if
you have a partner, a parent, a sibling, speak to
them about it, exactly what Sean did to you. And
if it just doesn't sound right and it's just a
bit of this sort of gray area of did it
(15:17):
really solve what's going on? Or was it kind of
just like a mask. Here's a script for some medication
and you kind of you still confused. Absolutely, U should
either go back to that GP or get a second
or even third opinion. And I've met plenty of people
who encourage plenty of people when they've come back they
just did not like their GP. And GPS are like
any profession. You get very good GPS, you get not
(15:40):
so good GPS, and you even get to the far
right old school gps who are just you know, they're
not in the current way of thinking with these sort
of things. So if you don't like your GP, you
don't have to go back and see that GP. We
live in a country where we have access to healthcare.
We're so fortunate to have that access and usually where
you live there are multiple different sort of GPS or
(16:00):
practices you can go to.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
So that's my advice.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
On that is, if you're just something in you telling
you that, you know what, I'm not happy with what
I was just told, then it's your body.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
It's not the GP's body.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
There's nothing stopping you from picking the phone up and
booking an appointment and to see another GP. You know,
get even a third opinion, because sometimes that's what it
takes to someone to actually take you seriously and they
can kind of say, hey, I get what you're saying.
Let's run a few tests, Let's go for a ct scan,
So be proactive. Don't give up. If you hear some
news you don't think it's right, do exactly what Sean did.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Go back to that GP, or go see another one
that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
It's really about trusting that gut and not everyone does
have that support person where they can come and discuss
the appointment and get that feedback, but certainly not being
afraid to ask again, whether that be that same person
or a different doctor or someone else another professional.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Right, And I think people think that GPS or health
professionals what they say is gospel, and there are some
fantastic doctors out there, but you can't just take what
they say as being must be that, you know, It's
like not even every GP is going to know the
exact condition that you've got so exactly right, trust your
guden and don't take for what GPS say has always
(17:12):
been completely right.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
So if we're talking about I guess your diagnosis now, Hugo,
as I know you know, being diagnosed with cancer doesn't
just affect you, it affects the loved ones around you.
How did they navigate that alongside you?
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Look, it's an interesting one because when I first got diagnosed,
I was.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
I was young, twenty one.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
I was a single bloke, lived away from home, so
it was actually pretty challenging because I kind of shared
some of it with my mates, but I actually didn't
tell many people, and in fact, there was plenty of
mates that I didn't even tell, even when I was
going through chemo. You know, a lot of mates thought
that I just shaved my head because that's what you
do on the army and you want to look tough.
I think, to be honest, I felt really embarrassed in
(17:52):
how I looked, and I didn't really know how to
talk to people about it. So it definitely is a
lot more challenging when you don't have that immediate partner
or that immediate support. Of course, my parents and family
were supportive, but then it almost flied entirely when I
then met my now wife and she went on that
journey with me, and then when I got diagnosed with
bow cancer, it's completely changed. You know, sitting there next
(18:15):
to her hearing that news, you know, she had to
handle my knee and she was getting quite emotional, and
I was getting quite emotional because in that point you
realize that this doesn't just impact me, you know, it
has these ripple effects of impacting loved ones, and I
think that's where I felt like I was also causing
them so much pain. And to this day, I still
(18:36):
feel like I cause Amber, you know that pain from
when I'm unwell and I'm back in hospital with our abstractions,
and I know it's so stressful and so difficult for
her to go through it. And that's what I think
I just probably underestimated when I was a young lad
that knew I'd get through it. Is when you're a
bit older and you've got these loved ones in your life,
you realize that they're going through this with you. And
(18:58):
I actually often say that in many respects, it's harder
for the care it's harder for the support person. Katie,
you've experienced this because you still need to function, you
still need to live your normal life. You know you've
got your job, You need to try and be positive.
You know you're supporting your loved one going through this.
You're often the ones you know relaying the updates to family,
and you're kind of that rock in the situation. Whereas
(19:19):
the person going through the cancer journey, like myself, it's
you're almost in this bubble.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
You know, you're in hospital. My whole world revolves.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Around, you know, the next test, the next treatment, where
Amber she goes through it and still has.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
To function and live a normal life.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
So I think it's off in many respects, a lot
harder for the care and the support person. But as
I learned the hard way, it's important to talk to
them about how you're feeling and be open and honest
with that, because for too long I put on this
front and amb would every day come in and bring
up the little frozen watermelon, whatever I could eat, and
I'd kind of be cracking jokes and smiling and pretending
(19:54):
hours fine, and then as soon as she would leave,
I'd often burst into tears and you know, numb myself
on the painkillers, and I was just in.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Such an unhappy place.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
But I didn't want to show that to Amber because
I felt like I had to be strong for her,
because if I was upset and telling her how I
really felt, I felt like, how the hell is she
going to react to that?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
So it was a really challenging time.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
It's something that I don't think spoken about enough with
that sort of cancer diagnosis, and when you're going through
it is the mental health side of it and how
you can express that to your loved ones can be
really challenging.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
So when you talk about Amber obviously supporting you through
that journey, I know that there will be people listening
to this podcast who are currently.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Caring for a loved one with cancer.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Now that you've been through that, is there any wisdom
sort of hindsight that you could share with them.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
Yeah, Look, it's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
I think for me, I sometimes liked in moments pretending
that I wasn't going through it. I wasn't going to
this cancer bubble that I was in because you're constantly
seeing nurses and doctors, and so when Amber would come in,
or when my dad or mum would come in, often
liked when they spoke to me about what's going on
there where. Or I had a ship day at work,
(21:06):
my boss was being a prick orp you know, did
you see the body Adelaide Crows have a good Win
on the weekend, and you know, we watch the show
together and you kind of escape a little bit because
you kind of still want to feel normal. I think
you have to really try and and it's hard to
do because it's your entire world. But you can't just
solely talk about what you're going through and your life,
and you know, people then kind of dismiss their issues.
(21:29):
So then Amber I found out probably six months a
year later, that she had her own health struggles going
through all this sort of stuff, but she didn't want
to tell me about that because she said, oh, it's
nothing compared to what you're going through. And the important
part is to try and treat someone going through something
like cancer as a normal person and not a cancer patient.
And then when they start doing that, it then makes
the person going through it also feel like, hey, even
(21:52):
though I'm going through this, I can actually still support
my wife, my partner, my best mate. You know, I
can give advice to my dad who's going through relationship troubles, etc.
And it actually distracts you from the real shitty stuff
that's going on. So that's a key bit of advice
which really helped me. If you're a Cara, don't think
when you go in there and you start talking about
the issues in your life or work or you know,
(22:12):
did you hear my friend buddy got pregnant on the weekend,
all this sort of stuff. He's so important to do
that because all of a sudden that cancer patient isn't
just a cancer patient. They're a normal person that's part
of everyday life as well. And that's something that once
I communicated that, people kind of knew that, and there
was still that banter. You know, I'd have mates come
in that was still like paying me out, or there's
a bit of that friendly band we're talking about the
(22:34):
footy teams and stuff like that, not kind of tiptying
around thinking, you know, they can't say something or you know,
this poor guy sitting over here, because that eventually gets
pretty draining.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I often say in the context of grief, people ask me, oh,
you know, I'm sorry if I said something bad, or
you know, what's the right thing to say.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Like I'm in the grief as well, and we're navigating it,
so I imagine.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
It's probably similar in this regard.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Is also to know that there is no right or
wrong and that we're all figured it out together, whether
you're the patient or the care Would you agree with.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
That, Yeah, I think that's such a really good point
to highlight ash And you know, I know you've gone
through your own immense challenges around that, and I'm sure
you've had people that you've probably grown apart from because
they didn't really know what to say.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
And I've had similarly.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I'd really close friends, for example, that I didn't really
speak to for a good year or a couple of years,
and then I'd randomly see them when I was recovering.
And that's so mate, I've been following your long. How
you be. Look, I wanted to give you a caller,
send your message, but man, I just I felt like
you would have had so much, so many people there,
and I didn't really know what to say. And I'm
sure you both can agree with this, that someone reaching
(23:41):
out saying exactly that, Hey, hugo, Ash Kayla, I have
no idea what you're going through. I have no idea
what to say, but hey, I just wanted to just
check in. I'm here, Can I drop in the seas
there anything I can do that's something like that goes
a long way, And I think that's what people underestimate.
They don't need to have the answers because, like you said, Ash,
the person in the bed or the going to the grief,
(24:03):
we don't have the answers either. So simply just you know,
ficking someone a message, give them a call. Like I said,
it doesn't have to be related to that grief or
that cancer. It could be a if a mate message
me said, bloody, how I'm sick of these guys losing?
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Or how good is that win on the weekend. That's awesome.
I'm still connecting with this person.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
They don't always have to be like mate, So tell
me how you going house today?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Because you know what, you get a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I think just someone reaching out, someone connecting with you,
having that interaction with someone is so much better than
someone just you're not hearing from someone for six months
or a year.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
And I don't know if neither of you.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Experienced that when you've had people in your life that
you seem to be close with and for some reason
you didn't really hear from them for a while.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I don't know if you experienced that.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, I have, and it's it's tricky, I think for
both parties involved, because people don't know what to say,
so they just go silent, and I like, I respect that. Yeah,
there's certainly friendships of mine that have changed, and not
just my friendships, but mutual friendships. And I think for me,
I find it devastating it actually, but I get it,
(25:06):
and I try and be really respectful of that other
person because like I'm a different person as well. So
obviously it's heavy. I think where I struggle now is
I don't have all of the stories about Matt to
share with the kids. So that's where my devastation comes from.
I'm devastated that the friendship has changed, but I can
(25:27):
see why, and I try to be understanding of that.
But I'm more devastated for the children because there are
stories that I just don't have, And you know, we
talk about Matt every single day and he's very present.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
However, there are gaps.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
We still have obviously a big collection of friends who
will be able to feel but I am very conscious
that there are still gaps that the kids will miss
out on. And that's devastating for me because I feel
the devastation for the kids and for Matt because I
know that he would have shared those stories. And so
that's a heavy one.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
Thanks for sharing that, Ash.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
It's talk about losing the friendships, but I'm sure you've
had those that have either surprised you in a really
good way and you've created like these absolute rocks in
your life where they've just come in there at the
right time, and then to this day they're like the
closest person in your life.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Have you had the flip side of that?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Absolutely, And I think in a way that is surprising
and beautiful at the same time. Because there was a
quote that I found recently. It was something along the
lines of isn't it amazing to know that some of
your best friends you haven't met yet? And I think
we sort of grow up with childhood friends and uni
friends or whatever, anyboy thinking oh, these are our friends,
(26:37):
and then you do get surprised and Kayla is that
person for me.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
And you know, the amazing thing.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
About how Kayla and I met was through a Widows
of Brisbane page. However, we've actually realized that we've joined
the dots and we used to work together twelve years ago.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
That's so good, which is wild.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
And we often say that people come into your life
when you least expect it and when do you need
them the most, And you know, realistically, we've not been
friends for all that long in this chapter of our life,
so it's quite amazing that the universe has put us together.
And the ironic part of that is that obviously there's
that work history, but also we live a kilometer away
(27:18):
from each other, so we're isolated and felt isolated in
this grief journey, and then we came together and we went,
oh my god, we could if we really wanted to.
It's a little bit hot in Brisbane, but we could
actually walk to each other's homes. And our kids are
the best of friends.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Max often calls our kids my triplets, and he often says,
how am I going to manage three of them at once?
I was like, let me know. When you figure that out,
let me know. So that's really beautiful.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
How beautiful set relationship? If you don't mind me asking
you how long? But when did you first connect?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think it's like being twelve months this year, so
it's not a long time.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
But what's really beautiful is that it was almost instant friendship,
and it was an easy friendship. And you know, we've
been through so much where making new adult friends can
be really taxing and explaining your whole story and all
that sort of stuff, but with us, we're just there's
no bullshit, so easy.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Yeah you need that, And I love that quote act
and it's so true.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Is that you could have these lifelong friends, and you
know what, they're going to be lifelong friends, but they're
different friends. You know, you might get your old schoolmates.
What the friendship you guys have is something so unique
and special, and I think it's a really beautiful thing
that You're right. It doesn't matter if you've known each
other for a month, a year, you know, two years.
You can just become this special bond and this deep
(28:35):
connection which you might not have with anyone else, and
you just almost know that you'll be really close friends
for the rest of your life, which is such.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
A such a lovely thing.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I think the other great thing is that, yeah, to
your point, yes, there's been some friendships that have changed,
and there's been friendships that have become even stronger and
again felt so organic and beautiful. And there's some friends
that I can think of in my grief journey who
I wouldn't have necessarily expected to become so close with,
(29:05):
and they have become such an important part not just
a friendship for me, but as part of our family.
And that's another thing that is special with those friends
and also with Kayler, is it's actually not just a
friendship with me as the adult or the parent or
the widow. It's the children and they have their own bond,
and then together we have like this beautiful bond when
we all hang out and get fish and chips in
(29:27):
the park and things like that. But that's really special
is that they've got their own bond. And I love
that they will be able to support each other. You know,
as mums, we can support our kids in our own way,
but they will support each other as well. And I
think that has been both such a beautiful friendship and
really yes, in twelve months.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
But geez, what's going to happen after two years with
you guys?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Oh wait and see watch out?
Speaker 5 (29:50):
Now that's lovely. I love hearing that hugo you.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Obviously, as you've explained, you've had a lot of lemons
thrown your way throughout your life, and that obviously hasn't
come without mental health challenges, which I believe is why
you're now such a big advocate in that space. Can
you share a little bit about that story and how
you got to where you are now?
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Yeah, I think the best way to describe it is
I actually show this in I do a presentational workshop.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
Is there's this photo of me that might be.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
All too close for home for you, Caleb, because I'm
sure Sean had similar with all the scars and the
external bag and you've lost a lot of weight and
you look on well. And I think anyone can see
that photo or that person go they look unwell. And
I think these particular photos are selfie in the mirror,
and I was just very unhappy, whereas all the other photos,
you know, I was smiling and I looked like I
(30:39):
was doing pretty well, and that was kind of you know,
the behind the scenes and this selfie in the hospital
room of when I'm just having my top off and
physically I look on well, but I look at that
face and I just can put myself into that moment.
And I was so mentally unhappy, depressed, and there were
stages I just didn't actually want to be there. But
I didn't ever tell anybody that I didn't, you know,
(31:00):
not even my wife and my parents, nobody.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
I just kept that all to myself.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
And and I think that's because I felt that I
had to be this strong person all the time. And
I think the reason why I like reflecting on that
photo is because sometimes something like cancer, when you're going
through a physical illness. It's a lot easier to see,
it's a lot easier to treat. And I remember I'd
be in hospital and there'd be doctors with clipbores, and
(31:24):
I had a pain specialist, and the nurses would come
in and check your bloody, heart rate and blood pressure
and put you on these nutrients and they're doing everything
they could to keep you alive. But during that whole time,
I didn't have anyone or anything to do with my
mental health, nothing to look after that, and it was
a really light bulb moment really for me. I'm like, here,
I am with like ten different doctors and specialists and
(31:45):
nurses and everything, but there was nothing about how you're going,
you know, how you're struggling with this. It was just
it was very much to let's treat the cancer, which
I get that's what they needed to do. But it
was that moment where I realized I had to do
a bit more for my mental health too, and that's
when I started to open up to Amber a bit more.
And it was actually my Army GP who recognized I
was really struggling, and he actually referred me to a
(32:07):
psychologist in the hospital. And it's the first time of
my adult life that i'd first seen a psychologist and
she actually came into the hospital and she sat down
with me and she.
Speaker 5 (32:18):
Just let me unpack things.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
And little did I know that psychologists are really just
people that listen to you and it says talking therapy,
and they're unbiased and they let you just before I
know it, I'm just like unloading things for an hour,
which I hadn't done before, and it made things make
a bit more sense. It made me feel seen, It
made me feel justified in how I was feeling, that
you can actually have cancer and be shrugging with your
(32:40):
mental health too. And then I started to treat my
mental health no different to how I was treating my cancer,
and it's looking at it in the same light. And
I often say to people too, when I was at
my lowest of lows and I really didn't want to
be there, and I was in such a dark place,
some of the pain I was experiencing with those thoughts
those emotions was often more painful than some of that
(33:00):
physical stuff that I was going through. And I think
it can just put a bit of a spotlight on
for those who have never experienced poor mental health or
mental illness. When people are struggling, or when people are
at the very end of what they're going through in
severe crisis, the pain they're experiencing is truly painful. It's
not like having a bad day or a week. They're
(33:21):
in such a bad place. And I think we've got
to start looking in that same way. And I think
the more I started doing that, the more I realized
it justified in how I was feeling, and the fact
that I could actually treat it was almost like what
you're telling me, that I can actually treat this.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
I just thought this is how I'd feel forever.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
It took a long time, and to this day, I
still see a psychologist, and I still do my gratitude journaling,
and I still have days or weeks where I'm not
in a very good place. But I put my hand
up and now say to Amber, I'm really not having
a great day, and I don't know what it is.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
And guess what we talk about it.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
I see my psychologists and do the things that I've
worked to doing, and mindfulness and the breath work, and
you can actually help yourself, no different to if you're
recovering from a cancer surgery. You get up, you physically
need to keep moving, you do all those sort of
things that they tell you to do. And that was
kind of that moment in my life where I made
a big shift and I realized I didn't have to
just keep quiet.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
I didn't have to go through this by myself.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Because a lot of time, when you're going through these
and you have these really bad mental thoughts and you're
in a really bad place, you feel very isolated. Nothing
can be very hard to talk to someone about that.
And even for me, opening up to my wife was
so difficult, which I did never thought that would be
the case. We have such an open relationship, but I
just couldn't break that barrier. So it's something that I
(34:36):
continue to work on. It's something that you know, I
don't think you're ever just mentally healthy and yeay that
we meet the rest of my life. It's something that
you've got to keep working on. You're going to have
days and weeks that you feel like you've gone backwards
a bit. But it's like your physical fitness after a
bloody Christmas break of eating and drinking too much and
you go, jeez, and you need to get back into
(34:57):
some of that exercise. I feel like you have the
same that version of you know, looking after your mental
health where you feel like you just slipped back a
bit and you got that, so okay, I'm going to
work myself back into it, become mentally mentally fit, not
just physically fits. So yeah, it's a work in progress,
but that's kind of how it stemmed from that really
difficult time in hospital.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I love the way you've explained that that, Yeah, after
that Christmas break, we're all a little sluggish, you know,
need to get back into that routine and we know
it and we do something about it. And I think
we do need to apply a similar thinking to the
mental health. You know, unlike the when you're talking about
all the observations in hospital, they've got the numbers, they've
got the metrics to check your heart rate, etc. You know,
we just don't have that. The mind is complex, so
(35:37):
we don't have that with their mental health. So to
continue working on that routine and acknowledge yep, Okay I
slipped a bit behind and that's okay, what do I
need to do to get back to that point? So
thanks for explaining it in that way. That was really great.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
No, no no worries, And I think it falls into
that invisible illness side of things too, which you can't
often see. And mental health and mental illness is so
complex that someone with Bower cancer typically has, you know,
that same treatment as that person with Bower cancer. There
are a few other little path you can take, but
someone with x mental illness or who might be depressed
that might work from that might not. You know, they
(36:10):
might be very good at putting on that mask, and
so it's a lot harder. So it makes you feel
a bit more sort of isolated, you know, you think
you're going through it by yourself.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
So yeah, it's a really important one.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
And like you said, Kayla, like everything I've gone through
and regardless, I'll always be a cancer advocate, but I
think it's taught me over the years why the mental
health conversation in mental Fitness is such a great terminology
because it makes people realize that this stuff is so important.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yeah, and we've acknowledged that obviously. You know, dealing with
a cancer diagnosis or mental health, it's a lot easier
when you have that support person with you. What advice
do you give to people though, who might be suffering
with mental health who don't have that support person by
their side.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
Yeah, and that's a it's a really tough one and
it's something that it's so important for me to be
reminded of that myself. And you know, I've done talk
where I've finished and shared my story and my presentation,
and I've had people come up and I've got this
one guy in my head and it was a taught
recently earlier this year who came up and literally asked
(37:14):
me a similar question. And when you've got and I
always say, when you're lucky enough to have all that support.
I am so lucky that I've got family, support, beautiful partner,
great group of friends.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
I've got a supportive workplace.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
You know, sometimes I think you take that for granted,
but you don't realize how much that does for you.
I couldn't imagine what it would be like going through
what I've gone through not having any of that. I
don't even know if I'd still be here. So if
you're that person who doesn't have that support network, there's
two things I'll say, I'll leave the second one to
finish off on. The first one is finding if there
(37:49):
is just that one person. Now, I know we said
if you don't have anyone, but often we think that
it needs to be family members, a partner. It could
be a colleague, it could be an old friend. But
having someone just that one person that you can connect
with with a hobby, just a similar passion where you
can connect with, and that could be as simple as
the pub or it could be as simple as you know,
(38:10):
State of Orange is on and old Matt also goes
for New South Wales and just finding that little bit
of connection that you've both got something similar with and
then developing that particular relationship. And I've seen that work
before when someone kind of started to put themselves out there.
Speaker 5 (38:23):
It's kind of like not just finding a partner.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
They wanted to find a friend, and they did that
by finding a common interest and a common hobby or
a passionate straight away. There's none of that awkward small
talk because you can just connect and talk about goal
for swimming or whatever you want to talk about that
if you still don't have that and you're in that space,
if i'd have nothing, I've got no friends in min
I've burnt every bridge possible, I mean, absolute crisis. And
this is the guy recently, my recommendation to him and
(38:47):
he actually did it, which is amazing.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
Is animals Now.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I say this because when I was in hospital and
I was really struggling, Amber actually got me my Ernie.
Who's my little therapy dog, and she literally we basically
said yep, here's your puppy, and she knew I was
in a bad way. I wasn't really getting out of
the couch. She then had to start going to work,
and having a little dog did so much for my
mental health because you've got a little mate. Dogs aren't
(39:12):
like humans. There's no judgment. They love you for you.
They don't care that you're having a bad day or
a good day. They'll still treat you the same. But
it gives you a little bit of purpose. And I
vividly a memory I used to just get up and
have to little feed Ernie.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
I take them for a little walk.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
You get me off the couch, and you develop such
a beautiful special bond. And this guy who reached out,
I followed him up and so much so that he
wasn't employed. Unfortunately, he was addicted to drugs and he
was in a really bad way. He since now not
only got a dog, he's part of a group called
Delta Therapy Dogs and essentially you can take your own
dog and train him up to be a therapy dog,
(39:47):
and then you can take that dog to go into hospitals.
I volunteer once a month with Ernie. We go to
Saint Vincent's Hospital palliative care. People are end of life,
and I walked through the hospital with Ernie and people
who are missing their dogs. They just smile and then
he jumps up on their bed and I leave there
and I feel fantastic. You know, I've got this like
boost of men health. You've just made these people smile,
your little mates wagging his tail next to you, and
(40:09):
it's such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
So that's what I will see.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
I think you can hear Ernie bark now, actually on
que you can hear I'm talking about it.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
Anyway, I think, to.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Me, that's something that if you're listening to this and
you don't know what to do next, you don't know
who to talk to. Don't underestimate the power of animals
and dog therapy and healing because they do so much
for you, but you don't even realize you can actually
turn that into a new found passion. I mean, if
you want to know more or find out more, reach
out and I can point you in the right directions.
But the group I work with called Delta Therapy Dogs,
(40:37):
and it truly is one of the things that to
this day people say, what's your happy place?
Speaker 5 (40:42):
What do you do to boost your mental health?
Speaker 4 (40:44):
I literally leave my phone at home, I go for
a walk with Ernie, I talk to other crazy dog
people out there, the owners, and you just feel great
and you watch him sniff around, you throw the ball,
and that's being in the present. That's mindfulness, that's looking
after your mental health. So it doesn't always have to
be humans, believe it or not. And you can start
small and get a little dog and he can be
your best at all mate. And I promise you he
(41:05):
can do wonders or she can do wonders for your
mental health.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
That's such a good idea. Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Often we default too journaling or therapies and things like that,
but I really love that fresh perspective. I just want
to say thank you so much. You've shared so much.
I think that we could all sit here for hours
and continue talking, and I just wanted to say thank
you so much. But before we wrap up, is there
a way that people can connect with you again? To
follow your journey and what you're doing now in the
(41:32):
advocacy space.
Speaker 5 (41:33):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
If you want to reach out through social media is
probably the best avenue. Or if you're listening to this
in you've got a workplace that you're at and I
do workshops, and I work with a group called Gotcha
for Life and we do this sort of mental fitness workshops.
We get out there and I've even brought Ernie to
some of them too, so it's a pretty cool thing.
But yeah, I love connecting with people, and you know,
(41:55):
I love when people can open up and share something
that you're going through. And I take that as a
privilege if you've got someone that can feel comfortable enough
to share something they're going through, So absolutely give to
give you the time to have a chat and talk
to about anything you want to. And who knows, we
can ye potentially cross paths and come to your workplace
and meet you in person, just like you two. I'd
(42:16):
love to love to go to Brisbane again soon and
maybe we can all sit down and grab a coffee.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Love that awesome, Thanks Hugo, It's been really great connecting again.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Thanks so much for having me and look forward to
following along the podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Thank you, Thanks Hugo.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
If you loved this episode, please don't keep it a secret,
Share it with a friend on social media and tag
us at just life and Lemons. Please click the follow
button and leave us a review. Just Life and Lemons
is not a mental health service or a substitute for
professional mental health advice, treatment, or assessment. Any conversations in
this podcast are general in nature. If you are struggling,
(42:55):
please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on one three,
one four
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