April 7, 2025 • 35 mins
In this special season finale, Ash and Kayla sit down for a heart-to-heart episode dedicated entirely to you, our amazing listeners. We're diving deep into the questions you've sent us throughout our first season, sharing raw and honest answers about solo parenthood, resilience, and creating joy after loss. Join us as we wrap up this incredible season and reflect on the powerful journey we've shared together.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apodjay production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Please note that this conversation is a big one. We
were discussing grief, loss and mental health. If this isn't
the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join us
on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just Life
and Lemons.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm Ash and I'm Kayla.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This podcast is all about embracing life's lemons and making
them into something beautiful. We've had a fair few lemons
thrown it our way, but we're not letting that stop us.
This is it our last episode of the season. We
are excited to have you here on Just Life and Lemons.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I'm Ash and I'm Kayla.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We have been so blown away by the support that
we have received doing this podcast. Sorry, today, we want
to have a little bit of a chat about some
of the questions that we've had and basically just reflect
on the last ten episodes. We've had such awesome guest
speakers as well and some really great chats. So should
we dive straight in, Kayler.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Let's dive in.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
One of the first questions I get asked a lot,
and since this podcast has come to light, is how
do you find joy again after facing such significant loss?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's such a big question, isn't it, Because I think
it's only been for me really the last twelve months
that I've felt that I've made that progress. I think
the first three years was very much survival, and definitely
there were pockets of joy, but it was always overshadowed
by the sadness and the realities of what I was
(01:37):
facing and my own mental health. I really struggled to
see beyond that. So I would say that I've had
to make a really conscious effort in the last twelve
months to make those choices. And I think a moment
for me was particularly when the little ones were babies
and I was in that newborn phase, which is hard
for any new parent. There's a lot of sleep deprivation,
(02:00):
a lot of emotions, hormones, etc. You know, navigating a
lot in parallel with my grief. It was a really
difficult time because I was in the darkest day of
my life and I had this beauty and this joy
in front of me, and I didn't want to be
sad all the time. So I really had this moment
of probably more so for the kids than for me.
I wasn't really in the mental state yet to think
(02:21):
of myself, but I was very much thinking about the kids.
I didn't want them to see sad mummy all the time.
And so that was a turning point for me, was
to go, Okay, I can't wait for joy to come
to me. I don't think you find joy. I think
you have to create joy. And so I made a
really conscious effort to ramp up my psychology and start
getting a little bit deeper with the conversations. And I
(02:42):
was having with a psychologist to make sure that I
could get to that point, because I knew I wanted to,
but I also knew I had to do some of
those hard conversations to get to that point. I don't
think you just sort of wake up and go, Okay,
I'm just going to be joyful now and that's great,
Like you don't. It's continual work, and it doesn't mean
that you just get to those happy moments and you're
just happy all the time. It's sort of ebbs and flows,
(03:03):
I suppose. So that's probably how I've gone about it.
I think I'm still on the journey of finding and
creating that joy.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Though it's a big.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Moment for me, I think in a way, the kids
almost make it easy, Like, we're so blessed to have
these kids because it's so hard to be sad and miserable,
and you've got these little bundles of joy and they're
hitting all their milestones and you know, Maxwell just comes
out with the funniest stuff now, and like you, there's
just joy in such little things. I think it's also
reflecting on this so much to be grateful for. You know,
it's not just doom and gloom. There is so much
(03:34):
to be grateful for. And we're living these lives now
that our partners don't get to live, and I think
you do it for them and you find joy in
the little things. And even with Maxol we've started a
grateful book and every night for bed we write two
or three things down we're grateful for. And it does
make you realize that there is joy out there, even
sometimes you can't see it.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think that's such a good point because we have
now become more grateful and joyful of those little moments.
They're not necessarily the Instagram highlights or the big milestones,
but those simple things. And it's so right those little
moments of doing that grateful journal before bed, is that's
actually more about the bonding that you have with Max
and to talk about that and share. And we do
(04:13):
a very similar practice before bed to just say what
was our favorite thing of the day, And it's actually.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Quite a wholesome thing. So yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I think before trauma sometimes you look at the big
things and you forget what actually brings you joy. And
then you know, when you go through something huge in
your life, it makes you really reassess everything and you
know your joy comes from the little things. It doesn't
come from the highlights. And yes, the holidays are nice
and the big houses are ne but it really is
joy from those everyday, little moments.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Another question is what does moving forward with grief look like?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I would say, I think you and I are very
similar in our grief and there's a lot of similarities
but also a lot of differences. But you know, we
talk about this a lot. Is like it never goes away.
We will never not love Matt and Sean. Ever, we
will never forget, like so much of my on a
daily basis is consumed by him and with him, and
(05:09):
so I think for me it's about moving forward is
for me, there's a lot of traditions that we do.
And that's not just the milestones or the big things,
but it is those little days and what are the
little moments in each day that can honor Matt as
my husband or even as an individual, you know, the
(05:29):
things that he loved doing as a person. That is
always at the forefront of my mind. So also honoring
my marriage and that is really important to me. And
of course it's daddy, you know, for the kids. So
we make sure that he is very present in our
life and we do talk about him every day, multiple
times a day, so he is with us in our journey.
(05:52):
And that's different for everyone, you know, that's not for everyone,
but that is something that's important to me. So moving
forward is continuing traditions and also creating new memories. And
there's a lot more joy ahead of us. And we've
had some beautiful moments in the last four years, and
I just know there's so many more and I really
believe that Matt will be part of that in a
(06:14):
different way. So I think that's what moving forward with
grief is. But also to not be sad, like Matt
would be devastated if we were just sitting at home
crying all the time, which like sometimes I think would
be easier and I could do that, and then I
miss out on such a beautiful life with our children,
Like I am here and I get to have this
beautiful life with them. It's not always sunshine and rainbows, obviously,
(06:36):
but no one's life is. No one's life is, and
we can make it the best we can, and it's
okay to acknowledge the sadness. But that's what I think
moving forward with grief is is acknowledging that it is
still part of us and bring them with us into
the new memories and the beautiful memories that are to
be made.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I say all the time, our little quote that we
do is we're living with the love he left behind,
Like that's our biggest thing. And I think that's how
you move forward with grief. I think on that. I
love that this question was moving forward with grief and
not moving on, because I really struggle with when people say, oh,
when are you going to move on? Like that to me,
I really struggle with because I do think you ever
(07:12):
will move on. You know, you never broke up with
these people, you never parted ways like they were taken
unfairly from the world, you know, So I think you
will never move on.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
But moving forward is that keyword so true, and a
lot of people, I think say it with love. I
suppose when they ask, oh, you know, are you seeing someone,
and I'm like, what, why would I be? For me?
I find that really difficult. I'm not ready for that,
And sometimes it feels really hurtful because it's like, but
regarding mat yeah, yeah, and for me, but I'm still married,
(07:43):
I don't. Yeah, it's a difficult one. So yeah, to
say moving on and to points sometimes they say it
really bluntly and I know they don't mean it like that,
but it's like, oh, just move on, like I will
never move on, Yeah, moving forward because he's still part
of our life, and that sort of really ties in
actually to that next question that we get and we
also get this a lot, not just with the cast
(08:05):
but even in our lives prior is when you say
that grief doesn't go away. So the question is you
say that grief doesn't go away, So how do you
cope with the challenges whilst still living your life.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I think for me, that perspective on what a challenge
has really changed, Like I'm very much now, don't sweat
the small stuff. If it's not a first world problem,
I don't give it the time I probably used to,
you know. I think, to me, a challenge now in
life is someone being diagnosed with terminal cancer, Like that's
my biggest challenge I've ever faced and living through that,
So anything else now to me kind of seems irrelevant.
(08:39):
And I think I probably used to be a stresshead.
I probably still am, but a lot less. So things
that used to be challenges and stresses in my life
just seem completely irrelevant now.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Probably why I struggle to also connect with people these days.
You know. I sometimes feel like I'm this concrete shell
of a human where people come to me with their problems,
and I sometimes find myself I don't have anything to say,
or I can't really say what I want to.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Say because it's not a lot of emotion.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yeah, I think that maybe that's me forever now, who knows.
But it's sometimes those challenges in life. Unless it is
actually a first world problem, it's not a problem. And
we talk about grateful a lot, and we look around
the world and we're so lucky, you know, we are
so lucky, and even going through the medical system when
Sean was unwell.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
As we have a roof.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Over our head, we have hospitals, we have doctors, we
have access to everything, you know, we have people around us,
we have jobs, we have voices, we have everything.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
We are very lucky. So I think challenges for me now,
I see them very differently.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I would agree I'm the same because there's certain things
I absolutely know that. Initially, in that first probably two years,
i'd say I was absolutely petrified. I felt really paralyzed
by fear. I physically felt as if I held my
breath for two years. I was so scared about anything
(10:05):
and everything. I struggled to have conversation with people. Driving
was hard, I was, Yeah, I actually felt it in
my body physically, like I was tense, like my muscles
were fatigued because of the fear and because of the trauma.
You know, I had lost Matt in an instant, and
I had evidence that accidents happen, and so you can
(10:26):
go from being on cloud nine and being excited for
the future that you have created together and then that
can be taken away from you. So I then really
struggled with you know, the fact of my life can change,
and I can lose everything, and I've just welcomed these
beautiful babies and I was petrified that I would lose them.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
So that was the biggest challenge for me.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And now that I've got passed and worked really hard
on freeing myself from some of that fear, I'm the
same where there's challenges and that people will say either
in their life or just situations that I come across myself.
Whereas previously, just you know, pre accident, I would have
been you know, okay, yep, that's challenger. I would have
got flustered about that, versus then that first twelve months
(11:11):
where I was absolutely helicopter mum to the nth degree,
and I was very aware of that, and I used
to get really upset because I didn't want to be
that helicopter mum that I knew I was being, But
I also as if I didn't have the ability not
to be, and I was doing it for very valid reason.
So everything I was doing or not doing was very
logical in my mind, and I had a really heavily
(11:33):
triggered trauma response to that and I just had to
get through. But now it was like, yeah, those challenges,
I go, oh, yeah, I'm quite unfazed by it, and
I feel at times that I'm almost too blast a
with some things that should worry me. But it's very
much around your point, around that the gratefulness and like, Okay, well,
this is what we have got and that's not a
(11:53):
real challenge like in the scheme of things. And I
do say that to a lot of people. They say, oh,
you're really calm about this. I'm like, Okay, this is
a really good question. Actually, how do you cope with
anniversaries and other significant dates.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I think you have to embrace them. You can't run
away from them. The anniversaries, the milestones, They're not going
to skip the date in the calendar. They're going to
come around every year, and I think you really have
to embrace them and celebrate them. And for Suan, every
year on his anniversary from the first year he passed
is I got all his friends and family together and
we do Sean's Day every year, and every year we
(12:29):
do an event of something he loves. So one year
we wore one and played top golf. One year, I
hide out a cinema and we all watch Art to Flight,
which was his favorite snowboarding movie.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And yeah, I've just really embraced that.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
So every year now we do something special to celebrate that,
and it's a celebration. I have people messaging me months
prior being like, what are you.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Doing this year?
Speaker 4 (12:50):
You know, And I've set the bar so high now
where I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing anymore,
Like I can't beat this. But it's a celebration, you know.
It really helps you get through those hard days. I
think with birthdays and anniversaries, they're always going to sting
a little bit, but it's doing something that you would
likely be doing together.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
On Sewan's birthday, we go and have Nando's and we
go play golf, or we go to the driving range,
or we just do something we probably would have been
doing with Sean anyway. Same thing for Father's Day. I
threw it to Maxwell this year and I said, what
do you want to do for Daddy on Father's Day?
And he said, I want to go have Nando's And
I was like, not perfect, you know. So I think
it's Max knows now enough about his dad and what
(13:29):
he used to love, and he now leads the way.
So it takes that pressure off me having to make
sure the days are special as it can be, you know,
and it's well, what would we have been doing anyway?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
You know birthdays.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I always used to make waffles where they used to
write messages on plates with sauce, with strawberry saw So
I do little things like that that we would have
been doing.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Same with me, it's very much about normalizing it as
best we can. I think for me, it's about acknowledging
that day, not ignoring it. It is, of course it's hard.
The lead up I find is quite stressful. I get,
you know, certainly feel anxious and upset with the date
approaching and that realization like, oh my god, I can't
believe it's.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Been another year.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And particularly this year, I've struggled because I am thirty
three this year, and that's an age that Matt didn't
get to live, and so I've really struggled this year
with I've seen what thirty three brings and Matt hasn't,
so that's difficult.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And then this year was also the wedding.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Anniversary, where I've had more at anniversaries without Matt than
we did together. So we've been together for many years,
but our actual wedding anniversary, so that was certainly a
tough day for me, and not negotiable is taking the
kids out of daycare and we have a family day.
So whether we've got work, daycare, that all stops and
we are together. There is both traditions that we continue
(14:53):
to do, and just like you, it's well, what would
we be doing together anyway, what are the things that
we just love doing, what are the places that we
love going.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And space for new memories.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So in the morning, certainly it's those you know, get
those traditions done and do what needs to be done
to remember, and then it's an opportunity for new memories.
And certainly as the kids are getting older. I mean
they're still a little young now, but certainly the opportunity
for them to decide what that looks like. You know,
it's not just me, it's them as well. But it's
a very important family day for me. And then around
(15:23):
that we do have a day, so I always organize
a day at the sporting field. So there are some
sporting fields in Brisbane that are named after Matt, which
is such an honor and every year I invite our
family and friends to join there and it's so casual.
It's just as Matt would like it coming together and
you know, having a hit on the cricket pitch and
(15:44):
just friends hanging out, and that's really special. So that
is a tradition that we have as a shared tradition.
But certainly it's like you say, it's not about ignoring
those dates, but it is about celebrating them in a
really beautiful way that honors and includes Matt and Shawn,
I guess because it's stuff that we would have done.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Anyway, when you look at how far you've what moments
stand out as significant milestones in your healing journey?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Big question, I would say, And I don't know if
I can really pinpoint this as a moment, but there
was definitely a moment in the first year when the
babies were born where I I think I was so
exhausted of being sad, and that was the moment that
I was like, I don't want to miss out on
(16:30):
the joy, Like I don't get to have this newborn
phase again, this is it. I don't get to have
maternity leave again or anything like that. And look, you know,
with solo parenting for triplets, I certainly didn't have a
standard maternity leave that you think, which is going to
mum's groups and going out to coffees, and that was
far from my experience. That's probably not a podcast in itself,
(16:53):
but the moment for me was I don't want to
just be cooped up in the house.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And it took me a really long time.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I had a lot of trauma in order to leave
the house and to leave the house with the babies.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So I know that there was moment.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Like I said, I can't pinpoint exactly what it was,
but I just remember feeling I don't want to be
this sad anymore, Like this isn't me and it's not
what Matt would want. So I felt that I was
doing a disservice to him as well. It's like I'm
the parent here and I get to see all these
milestones and the first smiles, the first laughs, and all
these beautiful moments. I want to be genuinely happy, and
(17:28):
I wasn't, and I was faking the whole thing, you know,
the smiles, the joy I was. It took a lot
of energy and effort for me to appear happy and
smiling in photos.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I look back now and.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
It was all forced, and I just have this look
on my face, like of desperation, I think. So for me,
that was a moment where I was like, I don't
want to live like this either. And so you know,
that took a lot of work, and that's when I
reached out to some other support. So I did have
a psychologist, I had a lot of family and friends,
but I connected with another mentor and just a beautiful
soul that I work with as well, and I was like,
(18:02):
I think I need help, and I just knew at
that point I need a different help to get me
to that next level. But also, like I'd say, it'd
probably be in the last twelve months where I've felt
a bit of a shift where I'm like I can
do this. And now it's not that I'm not just
doing it just for that or just for the kids.
I'm starting to want to do this for myself. And
again that just means different support and you know, still
(18:24):
having boundaries around what I want to do it with
work and you know, time with the kids, and just
saying it's okay, I can have it all. I can
work and I can still have time with the kids
and not feeling the pressure to I guess people please
and just compromise with what others expect of me, but
to actually take ownership of my life and go, I'm
(18:45):
actually creating a joyful life for the kids and I
and I get to do that. So that's probably the
significant moments for me. This is a big question.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
It kind of can be interpreted a couple of ways,
but I think it is it's staying true to my
values and who I am, and just staying a good
human being throughout the whole thing. You know, you can
kind of go into that victim mode and take it
out on everybody and that's okay, but I've seen that
happen in ways that I don't probably agree with. So
I think it is it's staying a good human being,
(19:17):
stay true to your values, true to your purpose and what.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Makes you happy.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
And I think being selfish along the way as well
is okay, you don't have to people please, like you said,
and perhaps that was something I was prone to doing prior.
It's being a bit selfish, knowing what brings you joy,
knowing what fills your cup, and being really aware of that.
I think I've probably come a long way in that area.
Is what actually makes me happy again. And I think
(19:43):
seeing Maxwell, you know, he is my biggest accomplishment at
this point, you know, I have this happy, healthy little boy,
and that's a huge milestone in your healing journey, because like,
no matter what we've had to overcome, with these little
humans by our side, we've done it, you know, And
I think that's that's massive.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I think that's part of.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
It as well, is the realization that, oh, my god,
look at what I have gone through and I am
still standing. I'm still getting up every morning despite all
of the pain. And you raise a really good point,
and that is probably now that I think about it,
One of the big things for me was yes, accepting help.
And then there was also actually a moment just before
the kids turned to I made the decision to step
(20:24):
back from some of the help I was receiving. So
for the first two years that the kids were born,
we had help in the house twenty four to seven,
and that was including family friends and nannies. So we
had two nannies doing like a rotating roster. So twenty
four to seven there was someone in our home and
that was necessary and it was really hard for me
and I didn't realize how much of an impact that
(20:46):
was actually having on my mental health. I never felt
comfortable in our home, and I really struggled with that
because this was meant to be a joyful family moment
and it was not for so many reasons. And I
made the choice to say I don't need overnight to
help anymore. And that was hard because the realities of
three babies overnight is difficult. But I always carry this
(21:08):
fear that like what if something happens to me, Like
what if in the middle of the night, I'm walking
to their room and I just trip in the bathroom,
Like no one's going to know that I've hurt myself.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So there was a lot of fear that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Came with that, But I also needed to make that
choice to find my independence. And i'd sort of made
this choice, and I was really nervous and I was
brewing on it for a long time about how to
say it in the right way. So it didn't come
across that I was ungrateful or anything like that, but
I remember just thinking, I think the benefit is going
to be better. So I think this is going to
(21:38):
be better for myself and for our babies if we
have space, And I never realized how beneficial that was
going to be. I remember saying that to our help
that we had and saying like thank you, but like
I'm good, I don't want to give this a go.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I was absolutely terrified.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I was like far out, I actually don't know if
I can do this, And I was really battling with that.
But I knew that it would kind of be like
that short term pain for long term gain, and I
didn't realize how much of a weight that would lift
off my shoulders when I actually made that decision and
when I actually did it and could see myself doing it,
and I think that was probably the first moment that
(22:17):
I saw in myself that I could do this, And
that was a really beautiful moment where I felt like
I could bond with our children really authentically. I didn't
have an audience, like even reading precious stories, and I
had a lot of private moments with them, but there
was always someone in the next room, you know, whether
they were cleaning dishes or helping with something else, like
they were always around. So I think that would be
(22:38):
a really significant moment and it was really difficult, and
I still to a degree I feel a moment of
guilt about saying no to the help, but I so
needed it and I needed to feel like I was capable,
so that would be a really big moment for me.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
How are the.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Kids coping without their dad's being here?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
This is hard.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
I think this is one that chokes me up a lot.
It's because they catch you off guard. You can't predict kids,
and Max in particular, when I at least expecting it.
You know, he he's okay.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
He's a happy kid.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
You know, he doesn't know any different. However, he knows
his dad is not here. He knows Daddy lives on
the moon. That's the narrative that we've created. And it's hard,
but he's happy, you know. He he just had his
sixth birthday and when we finished, we went to bed
and he goes, my daddy would have loved my party today,
(23:32):
you know. And it's just little things like that that
he will always struggle in his own way. But again,
it comes back to that celebration of his dad and
us talking about him. And every night before he goes
to bed, I say, Mommy and Dad, he love you.
And you know, I've said that to him since the
day he was born. And it's hard, you know, And
it's hard, and I think you've just got to navigate
(23:53):
day by day because you just they're on their own
grieving journeys and we can't compare ours with theirs, and
we have to just protect them and take it day
by day. But they catch you off guard, they really do.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
You know. He makes wishes all the time.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
He's like, I wish we could go to Disneyland again,
and I wish Daddy could come back, and when's Daddy
going to come back?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
And you know, they just it's hard.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It's so heartbreaking and beautiful when they talk about Daddy,
and they absolutely have a level of awareness, but there's
also this innocence and they don't know any different. I mean,
Max was obviously one when Sean passed, whereas I was
pregnant when I lost Matt. So they have their own
(24:37):
journey and they've got their own bond with their dad.
And I feel a lot of weight with the grief
because obviously I've got my own grief of my husband
and the future that we were creating. And I feel
this like weight because the kids aren't sort of old
enough to even understand what grief is, let alone how
they're navigating it.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So I feel like we're almost holding their grief.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And also that we are protecting them, and for me,
that's really important to like honor their emotions and allow
them their own journey, but also to protect them, you know,
from questions and situations I suppose, so for example, something
that I really protect them from at this point until
they decide otherwise. But at their daycare, they naturally they
(25:24):
do a Father's Day event and you know, they've said
to me, oh, like, you know, someone else could come,
like another male figure. I was like, no, I don't
want another male going because that's that's for Mat to
go to. And I appreciate what they're saying and that
they're keeping us options and stuff, but I'm like, no,
So that's a really difficult time for us. So I
(25:45):
you know, the kids will go in the morning and
they will still make the Father's Day gift and the
craft format because that's important. They have a dad, of course,
so they still.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Do the craft.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
And that's heartbreaking because we bring it home and we
talk about it and then it goes in a cupboard
and it's safe, but it's for Matt and we know
that that where we put our things for Matt. But yeah,
that's heartbreaking and beautiful. So look, I think for me,
our little ones are still a little young to fully understand,
of course, and we've got a long journey and I
(26:16):
really know that. God I've been seeing a psychologist regularly
for four years, and they will need their own support,
not just from me, but from others. And you know,
there's a really important part of meeds to make sure
that I'm sharing stories of Matt so that they know
him and they know about his childhood and about him
as a person. And I'm very lucky to have beautiful
(26:39):
people around me to share stories too, because of course
I only have a certain element of stories that I
can share from our time together, and I know a
lot of stories from his childhood, for example, but I
don't know them all, you know, on the sporting field, etc.
So that's really where the role of others come into that,
and I'm really hopeful that our kids get that because
they deserve that. And that's probably one of the many
things I struggle with, is that Matt's not here to
(27:02):
share that with them, those stories, or to say, oh, oh,
when I was a kid, I used to do that too,
or whatever that story might be. So I think that
they're a lot more aware than we probably give them
credit for, but it's certainly heartbreaking to watch. And I
have a lot of moments where we'll be doing something
and I'll get upset and you know, I'll be crying
and they always say, you know, don't be sad, and
(27:23):
I'll just say, I mean, really miss study And they've
started saying I'm misstudied too. So they're very aware and
they know they have a loss, and I think that
they feel that a lot more than we probably realize
they do. And so it's you know, I think it's
just a journey. There's no coping strategies that are right
(27:44):
or wrong. It's just a journey. So I think it's
my role, mum, to really support them, just like I
will in any scenario or any challenge that they face,
and that this is just a deeply personal one and
we just, you know, like I'm realizing in time, is
what my boundaries are and what I can cope with
and what's upally too much and I need to tap
out of. Is They will learn the same, and then
(28:05):
it's up to me to honor that and protect that
for them.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
What advice would you give to others who were trying
to rebuild their lives after losing a loved one.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
The first thing I would say, and this is probably
more a hindsight thing that I've learned, is to allow
yourself to be sad.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
That's okay.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
And the other point would be, like, I remember, very
early on in the grief, people kept asking me questions
and I was so overwhelmed, and I remember saying I
don't know. And when I said I don't know, I
was so stressed. I couldn't think straight, I couldn't answer.
I didn't have the capacity, and I felt almost guilty
for saying I don't know. And then I would stress
(28:43):
more because it's like why I don't know the answer
to that, because sometimes there were really basic questions. And
then someone said to me, I don't know is a
full sentence and an answer, and that gave me the
permission to be okay with not knowing yet. And I
remember this person saying to me, you might not figure
it out, and that's okay too, and that relieved a
(29:04):
lot of pressure. But firstly, I would say to just
allow yourself that time and space, and also to honor
your needs. The reality was I had to do all
of the estate planning, and I had to sort the
mortgage out, and there were a lot of admin things
that needed to be done. I was also on a
time pressure with regards to the babies, and I was
(29:26):
told that I could welcome or lose them at any point,
So that was weighing heavily on my mind and so
my health through that pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So I felt a lot of time pressure.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
So I felt like I had to rush a few
things more than I probably would have liked to, but
that was my reality. So I think to acknowledge that
was also a coping strategy. It kept me busy and
I could just get down to business and I actually
really needed that. I know a lot of people struggled
with that and found it either intense or too much
at the time, but I actually really needed that. So
I think it's also allowing what you need in your grief.
(29:59):
Would you be the same what was different for you?
Speaker 4 (30:01):
No, I think that's the same. I think for me,
this question makes me think of two different quotes. I'm
very much a quote person, but there's two quotes, and
I think they've both come into play it different parts
of rebuilding again, and it's every day might not be
a good.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Day, but there is good in every day.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
It means you don't have to have the best day,
but there's something good that happened today. You know, even
if you can't see it, there would have been something.
And then I think another one is be the moon
and inspire people even when you're far from full.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
That's nice. I've never heard that one.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Those are two, and I think they have both come
into play it. Different parts of trying to rebuild.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
My life again, you know that have impacted me, I
think as well, like grief is different. I mean, you
and I talk a lot about this, but we obviously
have similarities and differences, and then we know that other
people in our life cope with it differently as well.
And you know, I don't ever compare my grief like
everyone's grief is valid. We've all lost a huge part
(30:58):
of our life and everyone deals with it differently and
that can be hard at times to accept and see
how different people cob or not cope and things like that.
But I think that that's also an element of it.
I think that comparison is a huge one. You might
not feel like some days you're as sad as you
should be, but that's okay. In those days where you falling.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
To pieces and other people are happier, you know, and
I think it's okay.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I think that's a really good point. Is grief is
different for everybody.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah. Absolutely. There's actually a quote that I came across
many years prior to this happening, and it's something that
I've said to myself a lot is what are you
willing to give up to have the life that you
keep pretending that you want? And I think that comes
into what we're talking about around creating this joy and
like our grief will always be here. So I think
(31:46):
that's something to say to anyone else experiencing grief is
to actually go, well, what is this taught me? And
how can I if I really want something or I
want to create a more joyful life, you know what
am I willing to give up? And for me, to
be honest, that was like full time work. Financially, I
need full time work. However, I don't want to lose
time with the kids, So that sort of comes into
(32:07):
play as well. As you're grieving, I think to go,
what do you want from this and what does this
mean moving forward? I don't think it's always about just
returning to your old life, because you won't ever return
to that that person in your life has gone, and
therefore the person that you were has gone as well.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Your last question, what insights all lessons have emerged from
doing this podcast.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I didn't think i'd be able to do this.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I am really grateful for you because you really encouraged
me and you said, Ash, we've got something worth sharing,
and I didn't have the confidence and I was nervous
to speak. But I've really learned that I guess I'm
worthy of sharing. But also it's been really powerful to feel.
(32:53):
I mean, these were conversations that you and I were
having anyway, and we sort of spoke about this podcast idea,
but I was still terrified and You're like, no, no,
like I've got you, and that was really amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I felt really sad. I'm like, yeah, like we've got
this and we can do this together. And we've been
navigating our grief.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
You know, yes, with our loved ones, but ultimately in
isolation as the widows and raising the kids on our own.
But yeah, it was something that was really nice to go, Yeah,
we can step into our power and we can share
something and we can support others, and that's something that's
really core to my values and yours is that what
we really believed in was providing inspiration and support to others,
(33:31):
and even though we've been through hell, we really wanted to.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Give that back.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And I've just felt more confident that, yeah, like I
can do this, and I really want to thank you
for that. And I would say that that's been probably
the biggest lesson that I've learned through this process.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
I'm so glad we did it.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
I can't believe we did it.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I think just life and Lemon stemmed from a really
big lemon that came into both of our lives. But
I think the purpose of this podcast was to provide,
like you said, some inspiration to other people. And lemons
don't have to be losing a loved one. They happen
every single day, and it's really how you navigate those
lemons and how you either navigate through them or you
(34:13):
turn them into something great, like we've done with this podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And I hope that we've been real through this podcast
journey as well to say we haven't got it all
figured out. We're genuinely trying our best every day, and
there are still moments of sadness, absolutely, and they always
will be, but we're so determined to find happiness for
ourselves and for our kids. And I think that that's
hopefully what we've shared with our listeners to say it's okay,
(34:38):
Lemons will continue coming our way, and it's how we
show up every day to navigate that together. So that's
probably a reminder, and that's what this podcast has been
for me, as a reminder that we can do it.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
We can do it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
And also we're showing our kids that we're not defined
by the doom and gloom. You know, we want to
live a joyful life and we want to live a
purposeful life, and we're showing them that we're doing it.
We're not just talking about.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
It, we're creating our narrative a we are.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Season two will be ready, but it will be a
little different. Kayla will be overseas in Canada living her
life and we'll still connect and still bring you a
great season.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next season.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
If you loved this episode, please don't keep it a secret,
Share it with a friend on social media and tag
us at Just Life and Lemons. Please click the follow
button and leave us a review. Just Life and Lemons
is not a mental health service or a substitute for
professional mental health advice, treatment, or assessment. Any conversations in
this podcast are general in nature. If you are struggling,
(35:44):
please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on one
three one one four
Apodjay production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Please note that this conversation is a big one. We
were discussing grief, loss and mental health. If this isn't
the conversation for you today, that's okay. Please join us
on one of our other episodes. Welcome to Just Life
and Lemons.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm Ash and I'm Kayla.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This podcast is all about embracing life's lemons and making
them into something beautiful. We've had a fair few lemons
thrown it our way, but we're not letting that stop us.
This is it our last episode of the season. We
are excited to have you here on Just Life and Lemons.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I'm Ash and I'm Kayla.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We have been so blown away by the support that
we have received doing this podcast. Sorry, today, we want
to have a little bit of a chat about some
of the questions that we've had and basically just reflect
on the last ten episodes. We've had such awesome guest
speakers as well and some really great chats. So should
we dive straight in, Kayler.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Let's dive in.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
One of the first questions I get asked a lot,
and since this podcast has come to light, is how
do you find joy again after facing such significant loss?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's such a big question, isn't it, Because I think
it's only been for me really the last twelve months
that I've felt that I've made that progress. I think
the first three years was very much survival, and definitely
there were pockets of joy, but it was always overshadowed
by the sadness and the realities of what I was
(01:37):
facing and my own mental health. I really struggled to
see beyond that. So I would say that I've had
to make a really conscious effort in the last twelve
months to make those choices. And I think a moment
for me was particularly when the little ones were babies
and I was in that newborn phase, which is hard
for any new parent. There's a lot of sleep deprivation,
(02:00):
a lot of emotions, hormones, etc. You know, navigating a
lot in parallel with my grief. It was a really
difficult time because I was in the darkest day of
my life and I had this beauty and this joy
in front of me, and I didn't want to be
sad all the time. So I really had this moment
of probably more so for the kids than for me.
I wasn't really in the mental state yet to think
(02:21):
of myself, but I was very much thinking about the kids.
I didn't want them to see sad mummy all the time.
And so that was a turning point for me, was
to go, Okay, I can't wait for joy to come
to me. I don't think you find joy. I think
you have to create joy. And so I made a
really conscious effort to ramp up my psychology and start
getting a little bit deeper with the conversations. And I
(02:42):
was having with a psychologist to make sure that I
could get to that point, because I knew I wanted to,
but I also knew I had to do some of
those hard conversations to get to that point. I don't
think you just sort of wake up and go, Okay,
I'm just going to be joyful now and that's great,
Like you don't. It's continual work, and it doesn't mean
that you just get to those happy moments and you're
just happy all the time. It's sort of ebbs and flows,
(03:03):
I suppose. So that's probably how I've gone about it.
I think I'm still on the journey of finding and
creating that joy.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Though it's a big.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Moment for me, I think in a way, the kids
almost make it easy, Like, we're so blessed to have
these kids because it's so hard to be sad and miserable,
and you've got these little bundles of joy and they're
hitting all their milestones and you know, Maxwell just comes
out with the funniest stuff now, and like you, there's
just joy in such little things. I think it's also
reflecting on this so much to be grateful for. You know,
it's not just doom and gloom. There is so much
(03:34):
to be grateful for. And we're living these lives now
that our partners don't get to live, and I think
you do it for them and you find joy in
the little things. And even with Maxol we've started a
grateful book and every night for bed we write two
or three things down we're grateful for. And it does
make you realize that there is joy out there, even
sometimes you can't see it.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think that's such a good point because we have
now become more grateful and joyful of those little moments.
They're not necessarily the Instagram highlights or the big milestones,
but those simple things. And it's so right those little
moments of doing that grateful journal before bed, is that's
actually more about the bonding that you have with Max
and to talk about that and share. And we do
(04:13):
a very similar practice before bed to just say what
was our favorite thing of the day, And it's actually.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Quite a wholesome thing. So yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I think before trauma sometimes you look at the big
things and you forget what actually brings you joy. And
then you know, when you go through something huge in
your life, it makes you really reassess everything and you
know your joy comes from the little things. It doesn't
come from the highlights. And yes, the holidays are nice
and the big houses are ne but it really is
joy from those everyday, little moments.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Another question is what does moving forward with grief look like?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I would say, I think you and I are very
similar in our grief and there's a lot of similarities
but also a lot of differences. But you know, we
talk about this a lot. Is like it never goes away.
We will never not love Matt and Sean. Ever, we
will never forget, like so much of my on a
daily basis is consumed by him and with him, and
(05:09):
so I think for me it's about moving forward is
for me, there's a lot of traditions that we do.
And that's not just the milestones or the big things,
but it is those little days and what are the
little moments in each day that can honor Matt as
my husband or even as an individual, you know, the
(05:29):
things that he loved doing as a person. That is
always at the forefront of my mind. So also honoring
my marriage and that is really important to me. And
of course it's daddy, you know, for the kids. So
we make sure that he is very present in our
life and we do talk about him every day, multiple
times a day, so he is with us in our journey.
(05:52):
And that's different for everyone, you know, that's not for everyone,
but that is something that's important to me. So moving
forward is continuing traditions and also creating new memories. And
there's a lot more joy ahead of us. And we've
had some beautiful moments in the last four years, and
I just know there's so many more and I really
believe that Matt will be part of that in a
(06:14):
different way. So I think that's what moving forward with
grief is. But also to not be sad, like Matt
would be devastated if we were just sitting at home
crying all the time, which like sometimes I think would
be easier and I could do that, and then I
miss out on such a beautiful life with our children,
Like I am here and I get to have this
beautiful life with them. It's not always sunshine and rainbows, obviously,
(06:36):
but no one's life is. No one's life is, and
we can make it the best we can, and it's
okay to acknowledge the sadness. But that's what I think
moving forward with grief is is acknowledging that it is
still part of us and bring them with us into
the new memories and the beautiful memories that are to
be made.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I say all the time, our little quote that we
do is we're living with the love he left behind,
Like that's our biggest thing. And I think that's how
you move forward with grief. I think on that. I
love that this question was moving forward with grief and
not moving on, because I really struggle with when people say, oh,
when are you going to move on? Like that to me,
I really struggle with because I do think you ever
(07:12):
will move on. You know, you never broke up with
these people, you never parted ways like they were taken
unfairly from the world, you know, So I think you
will never move on.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
But moving forward is that keyword so true, and a
lot of people, I think say it with love. I
suppose when they ask, oh, you know, are you seeing someone,
and I'm like, what, why would I be? For me?
I find that really difficult. I'm not ready for that,
And sometimes it feels really hurtful because it's like, but
regarding mat yeah, yeah, and for me, but I'm still married,
(07:43):
I don't. Yeah, it's a difficult one. So yeah, to
say moving on and to points sometimes they say it
really bluntly and I know they don't mean it like that,
but it's like, oh, just move on, like I will
never move on, Yeah, moving forward because he's still part
of our life, and that sort of really ties in
actually to that next question that we get and we
also get this a lot, not just with the cast
(08:05):
but even in our lives prior is when you say
that grief doesn't go away. So the question is you
say that grief doesn't go away, So how do you
cope with the challenges whilst still living your life.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I think for me, that perspective on what a challenge
has really changed, Like I'm very much now, don't sweat
the small stuff. If it's not a first world problem,
I don't give it the time I probably used to,
you know. I think, to me, a challenge now in
life is someone being diagnosed with terminal cancer, Like that's
my biggest challenge I've ever faced and living through that,
So anything else now to me kind of seems irrelevant.
(08:39):
And I think I probably used to be a stresshead.
I probably still am, but a lot less. So things
that used to be challenges and stresses in my life
just seem completely irrelevant now.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Probably why I struggle to also connect with people these days.
You know. I sometimes feel like I'm this concrete shell
of a human where people come to me with their problems,
and I sometimes find myself I don't have anything to say,
or I can't really say what I want to.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Say because it's not a lot of emotion.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yeah, I think that maybe that's me forever now, who knows.
But it's sometimes those challenges in life. Unless it is
actually a first world problem, it's not a problem. And
we talk about grateful a lot, and we look around
the world and we're so lucky, you know, we are
so lucky, and even going through the medical system when
Sean was unwell.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
As we have a roof.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Over our head, we have hospitals, we have doctors, we
have access to everything, you know, we have people around us,
we have jobs, we have voices, we have everything.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
We are very lucky. So I think challenges for me now,
I see them very differently.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I would agree I'm the same because there's certain things
I absolutely know that. Initially, in that first probably two years,
i'd say I was absolutely petrified. I felt really paralyzed
by fear. I physically felt as if I held my
breath for two years. I was so scared about anything
(10:05):
and everything. I struggled to have conversation with people. Driving
was hard, I was, Yeah, I actually felt it in
my body physically, like I was tense, like my muscles
were fatigued because of the fear and because of the trauma.
You know, I had lost Matt in an instant, and
I had evidence that accidents happen, and so you can
(10:26):
go from being on cloud nine and being excited for
the future that you have created together and then that
can be taken away from you. So I then really
struggled with you know, the fact of my life can change,
and I can lose everything, and I've just welcomed these
beautiful babies and I was petrified that I would lose them.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
So that was the biggest challenge for me.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And now that I've got passed and worked really hard
on freeing myself from some of that fear, I'm the
same where there's challenges and that people will say either
in their life or just situations that I come across myself.
Whereas previously, just you know, pre accident, I would have
been you know, okay, yep, that's challenger. I would have
got flustered about that, versus then that first twelve months
(11:11):
where I was absolutely helicopter mum to the nth degree,
and I was very aware of that, and I used
to get really upset because I didn't want to be
that helicopter mum that I knew I was being, But
I also as if I didn't have the ability not
to be, and I was doing it for very valid reason.
So everything I was doing or not doing was very
logical in my mind, and I had a really heavily
(11:33):
triggered trauma response to that and I just had to
get through. But now it was like, yeah, those challenges,
I go, oh, yeah, I'm quite unfazed by it, and
I feel at times that I'm almost too blast a
with some things that should worry me. But it's very
much around your point, around that the gratefulness and like, Okay, well,
this is what we have got and that's not a
(11:53):
real challenge like in the scheme of things. And I
do say that to a lot of people. They say, oh,
you're really calm about this. I'm like, Okay, this is
a really good question. Actually, how do you cope with
anniversaries and other significant dates.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I think you have to embrace them. You can't run
away from them. The anniversaries, the milestones, They're not going
to skip the date in the calendar. They're going to
come around every year, and I think you really have
to embrace them and celebrate them. And for Suan, every
year on his anniversary from the first year he passed
is I got all his friends and family together and
we do Sean's Day every year, and every year we
(12:29):
do an event of something he loves. So one year
we wore one and played top golf. One year, I
hide out a cinema and we all watch Art to Flight,
which was his favorite snowboarding movie.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And yeah, I've just really embraced that.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
So every year now we do something special to celebrate that,
and it's a celebration. I have people messaging me months
prior being like, what are you.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Doing this year?
Speaker 4 (12:50):
You know, And I've set the bar so high now
where I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing anymore,
Like I can't beat this. But it's a celebration, you know.
It really helps you get through those hard days. I
think with birthdays and anniversaries, they're always going to sting
a little bit, but it's doing something that you would
likely be doing together.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
On Sewan's birthday, we go and have Nando's and we
go play golf, or we go to the driving range,
or we just do something we probably would have been
doing with Sean anyway. Same thing for Father's Day. I
threw it to Maxwell this year and I said, what
do you want to do for Daddy on Father's Day?
And he said, I want to go have Nando's And
I was like, not perfect, you know. So I think
it's Max knows now enough about his dad and what
(13:29):
he used to love, and he now leads the way.
So it takes that pressure off me having to make
sure the days are special as it can be, you know,
and it's well, what would we have been doing anyway?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
You know birthdays.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I always used to make waffles where they used to
write messages on plates with sauce, with strawberry saw So
I do little things like that that we would have
been doing.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Same with me, it's very much about normalizing it as
best we can. I think for me, it's about acknowledging
that day, not ignoring it. It is, of course it's hard.
The lead up I find is quite stressful. I get,
you know, certainly feel anxious and upset with the date
approaching and that realization like, oh my god, I can't
believe it's.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Been another year.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And particularly this year, I've struggled because I am thirty
three this year, and that's an age that Matt didn't
get to live, and so I've really struggled this year
with I've seen what thirty three brings and Matt hasn't,
so that's difficult.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And then this year was also the wedding.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Anniversary, where I've had more at anniversaries without Matt than
we did together. So we've been together for many years,
but our actual wedding anniversary, so that was certainly a
tough day for me, and not negotiable is taking the
kids out of daycare and we have a family day.
So whether we've got work, daycare, that all stops and
we are together. There is both traditions that we continue
(14:53):
to do, and just like you, it's well, what would
we be doing together anyway, what are the things that
we just love doing, what are the places that we
love going.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And space for new memories.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So in the morning, certainly it's those you know, get
those traditions done and do what needs to be done
to remember, and then it's an opportunity for new memories.
And certainly as the kids are getting older. I mean
they're still a little young now, but certainly the opportunity
for them to decide what that looks like. You know,
it's not just me, it's them as well. But it's
a very important family day for me. And then around
(15:23):
that we do have a day, so I always organize
a day at the sporting field. So there are some
sporting fields in Brisbane that are named after Matt, which
is such an honor and every year I invite our
family and friends to join there and it's so casual.
It's just as Matt would like it coming together and
you know, having a hit on the cricket pitch and
(15:44):
just friends hanging out, and that's really special. So that
is a tradition that we have as a shared tradition.
But certainly it's like you say, it's not about ignoring
those dates, but it is about celebrating them in a
really beautiful way that honors and includes Matt and Shawn,
I guess because it's stuff that we would have done.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Anyway, when you look at how far you've what moments
stand out as significant milestones in your healing journey?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Big question, I would say, And I don't know if
I can really pinpoint this as a moment, but there
was definitely a moment in the first year when the
babies were born where I I think I was so
exhausted of being sad, and that was the moment that
I was like, I don't want to miss out on
(16:30):
the joy, Like I don't get to have this newborn
phase again, this is it. I don't get to have
maternity leave again or anything like that. And look, you know,
with solo parenting for triplets, I certainly didn't have a
standard maternity leave that you think, which is going to
mum's groups and going out to coffees, and that was
far from my experience. That's probably not a podcast in itself,
(16:53):
but the moment for me was I don't want to
just be cooped up in the house.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And it took me a really long time.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I had a lot of trauma in order to leave
the house and to leave the house with the babies.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So I know that there was moment.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Like I said, I can't pinpoint exactly what it was,
but I just remember feeling I don't want to be
this sad anymore, Like this isn't me and it's not
what Matt would want. So I felt that I was
doing a disservice to him as well. It's like I'm
the parent here and I get to see all these
milestones and the first smiles, the first laughs, and all
these beautiful moments. I want to be genuinely happy, and
(17:28):
I wasn't, and I was faking the whole thing, you know,
the smiles, the joy I was. It took a lot
of energy and effort for me to appear happy and
smiling in photos.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I look back now and.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
It was all forced, and I just have this look
on my face, like of desperation, I think. So for me,
that was a moment where I was like, I don't
want to live like this either. And so you know,
that took a lot of work, and that's when I
reached out to some other support. So I did have
a psychologist, I had a lot of family and friends,
but I connected with another mentor and just a beautiful
soul that I work with as well, and I was like,
(18:02):
I think I need help, and I just knew at
that point I need a different help to get me
to that next level. But also, like I'd say, it'd
probably be in the last twelve months where I've felt
a bit of a shift where I'm like I can
do this. And now it's not that I'm not just
doing it just for that or just for the kids.
I'm starting to want to do this for myself. And
again that just means different support and you know, still
(18:24):
having boundaries around what I want to do it with
work and you know, time with the kids, and just
saying it's okay, I can have it all. I can
work and I can still have time with the kids
and not feeling the pressure to I guess people please
and just compromise with what others expect of me, but
to actually take ownership of my life and go, I'm
(18:45):
actually creating a joyful life for the kids and I
and I get to do that. So that's probably the
significant moments for me. This is a big question.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
It kind of can be interpreted a couple of ways,
but I think it is it's staying true to my
values and who I am, and just staying a good
human being throughout the whole thing. You know, you can
kind of go into that victim mode and take it
out on everybody and that's okay, but I've seen that
happen in ways that I don't probably agree with. So
I think it is it's staying a good human being,
(19:17):
stay true to your values, true to your purpose and what.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Makes you happy.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
And I think being selfish along the way as well
is okay, you don't have to people please, like you said,
and perhaps that was something I was prone to doing prior.
It's being a bit selfish, knowing what brings you joy,
knowing what fills your cup, and being really aware of that.
I think I've probably come a long way in that area.
Is what actually makes me happy again. And I think
(19:43):
seeing Maxwell, you know, he is my biggest accomplishment at
this point, you know, I have this happy, healthy little boy,
and that's a huge milestone in your healing journey, because like,
no matter what we've had to overcome, with these little
humans by our side, we've done it, you know, And
I think that's that's massive.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I think that's part of.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
It as well, is the realization that, oh, my god,
look at what I have gone through and I am
still standing. I'm still getting up every morning despite all
of the pain. And you raise a really good point,
and that is probably now that I think about it,
One of the big things for me was yes, accepting help.
And then there was also actually a moment just before
the kids turned to I made the decision to step
(20:24):
back from some of the help I was receiving. So
for the first two years that the kids were born,
we had help in the house twenty four to seven,
and that was including family friends and nannies. So we
had two nannies doing like a rotating roster. So twenty
four to seven there was someone in our home and
that was necessary and it was really hard for me
and I didn't realize how much of an impact that
(20:46):
was actually having on my mental health. I never felt
comfortable in our home, and I really struggled with that
because this was meant to be a joyful family moment
and it was not for so many reasons. And I
made the choice to say I don't need overnight to
help anymore. And that was hard because the realities of
three babies overnight is difficult. But I always carry this
(21:08):
fear that like what if something happens to me, Like
what if in the middle of the night, I'm walking
to their room and I just trip in the bathroom,
Like no one's going to know that I've hurt myself.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So there was a lot of fear that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Came with that, But I also needed to make that
choice to find my independence. And i'd sort of made
this choice, and I was really nervous and I was
brewing on it for a long time about how to
say it in the right way. So it didn't come
across that I was ungrateful or anything like that, but
I remember just thinking, I think the benefit is going
to be better. So I think this is going to
(21:38):
be better for myself and for our babies if we
have space, And I never realized how beneficial that was
going to be. I remember saying that to our help
that we had and saying like thank you, but like
I'm good, I don't want to give this a go.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I was absolutely terrified.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I was like far out, I actually don't know if
I can do this, And I was really battling with that.
But I knew that it would kind of be like
that short term pain for long term gain, and I
didn't realize how much of a weight that would lift
off my shoulders when I actually made that decision and
when I actually did it and could see myself doing it,
and I think that was probably the first moment that
(22:17):
I saw in myself that I could do this, And
that was a really beautiful moment where I felt like
I could bond with our children really authentically. I didn't
have an audience, like even reading precious stories, and I
had a lot of private moments with them, but there
was always someone in the next room, you know, whether
they were cleaning dishes or helping with something else, like
they were always around. So I think that would be
(22:38):
a really significant moment and it was really difficult, and
I still to a degree I feel a moment of
guilt about saying no to the help, but I so
needed it and I needed to feel like I was capable,
so that would be a really big moment for me.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
How are the.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Kids coping without their dad's being here?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
This is hard.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
I think this is one that chokes me up a lot.
It's because they catch you off guard. You can't predict kids,
and Max in particular, when I at least expecting it.
You know, he he's okay.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
He's a happy kid.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
You know, he doesn't know any different. However, he knows
his dad is not here. He knows Daddy lives on
the moon. That's the narrative that we've created. And it's hard,
but he's happy, you know. He he just had his
sixth birthday and when we finished, we went to bed
and he goes, my daddy would have loved my party today,
(23:32):
you know. And it's just little things like that that
he will always struggle in his own way. But again,
it comes back to that celebration of his dad and
us talking about him. And every night before he goes
to bed, I say, Mommy and Dad, he love you.
And you know, I've said that to him since the
day he was born. And it's hard, you know, And
it's hard, and I think you've just got to navigate
(23:53):
day by day because you just they're on their own
grieving journeys and we can't compare ours with theirs, and
we have to just protect them and take it day
by day. But they catch you off guard, they really do.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
You know. He makes wishes all the time.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
He's like, I wish we could go to Disneyland again,
and I wish Daddy could come back, and when's Daddy
going to come back?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
And you know, they just it's hard.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It's so heartbreaking and beautiful when they talk about Daddy,
and they absolutely have a level of awareness, but there's
also this innocence and they don't know any different. I mean,
Max was obviously one when Sean passed, whereas I was
pregnant when I lost Matt. So they have their own
(24:37):
journey and they've got their own bond with their dad.
And I feel a lot of weight with the grief
because obviously I've got my own grief of my husband
and the future that we were creating. And I feel
this like weight because the kids aren't sort of old
enough to even understand what grief is, let alone how
they're navigating it.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So I feel like we're almost holding their grief.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And also that we are protecting them, and for me,
that's really important to like honor their emotions and allow
them their own journey, but also to protect them, you know,
from questions and situations I suppose, so for example, something
that I really protect them from at this point until
they decide otherwise. But at their daycare, they naturally they
(25:24):
do a Father's Day event and you know, they've said
to me, oh, like, you know, someone else could come,
like another male figure. I was like, no, I don't
want another male going because that's that's for Mat to
go to. And I appreciate what they're saying and that
they're keeping us options and stuff, but I'm like, no,
So that's a really difficult time for us. So I
(25:45):
you know, the kids will go in the morning and
they will still make the Father's Day gift and the
craft format because that's important. They have a dad, of course,
so they still.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Do the craft.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
And that's heartbreaking because we bring it home and we
talk about it and then it goes in a cupboard
and it's safe, but it's for Matt and we know
that that where we put our things for Matt. But yeah,
that's heartbreaking and beautiful. So look, I think for me,
our little ones are still a little young to fully understand,
of course, and we've got a long journey and I
(26:16):
really know that. God I've been seeing a psychologist regularly
for four years, and they will need their own support,
not just from me, but from others. And you know,
there's a really important part of meeds to make sure
that I'm sharing stories of Matt so that they know
him and they know about his childhood and about him
as a person. And I'm very lucky to have beautiful
(26:39):
people around me to share stories too, because of course
I only have a certain element of stories that I
can share from our time together, and I know a
lot of stories from his childhood, for example, but I
don't know them all, you know, on the sporting field, etc.
So that's really where the role of others come into that,
and I'm really hopeful that our kids get that because
they deserve that. And that's probably one of the many
things I struggle with, is that Matt's not here to
(27:02):
share that with them, those stories, or to say, oh, oh,
when I was a kid, I used to do that too,
or whatever that story might be. So I think that
they're a lot more aware than we probably give them
credit for, but it's certainly heartbreaking to watch. And I
have a lot of moments where we'll be doing something
and I'll get upset and you know, I'll be crying
and they always say, you know, don't be sad, and
(27:23):
I'll just say, I mean, really miss study And they've
started saying I'm misstudied too. So they're very aware and
they know they have a loss, and I think that
they feel that a lot more than we probably realize
they do. And so it's you know, I think it's
just a journey. There's no coping strategies that are right
(27:44):
or wrong. It's just a journey. So I think it's
my role, mum, to really support them, just like I
will in any scenario or any challenge that they face,
and that this is just a deeply personal one and
we just, you know, like I'm realizing in time, is
what my boundaries are and what I can cope with
and what's upally too much and I need to tap
out of. Is They will learn the same, and then
(28:05):
it's up to me to honor that and protect that
for them.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
What advice would you give to others who were trying
to rebuild their lives after losing a loved one.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
The first thing I would say, and this is probably
more a hindsight thing that I've learned, is to allow
yourself to be sad.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
That's okay.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
And the other point would be, like, I remember, very
early on in the grief, people kept asking me questions
and I was so overwhelmed, and I remember saying I
don't know. And when I said I don't know, I
was so stressed. I couldn't think straight, I couldn't answer.
I didn't have the capacity, and I felt almost guilty
for saying I don't know. And then I would stress
(28:43):
more because it's like why I don't know the answer
to that, because sometimes there were really basic questions. And
then someone said to me, I don't know is a
full sentence and an answer, and that gave me the
permission to be okay with not knowing yet. And I
remember this person saying to me, you might not figure
it out, and that's okay too, and that relieved a
(29:04):
lot of pressure. But firstly, I would say to just
allow yourself that time and space, and also to honor
your needs. The reality was I had to do all
of the estate planning, and I had to sort the
mortgage out, and there were a lot of admin things
that needed to be done. I was also on a
time pressure with regards to the babies, and I was
(29:26):
told that I could welcome or lose them at any point,
So that was weighing heavily on my mind and so
my health through that pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So I felt a lot of time pressure.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
So I felt like I had to rush a few
things more than I probably would have liked to, but
that was my reality. So I think to acknowledge that
was also a coping strategy. It kept me busy and
I could just get down to business and I actually
really needed that. I know a lot of people struggled
with that and found it either intense or too much
at the time, but I actually really needed that. So
I think it's also allowing what you need in your grief.
(29:59):
Would you be the same what was different for you?
Speaker 4 (30:01):
No, I think that's the same. I think for me,
this question makes me think of two different quotes. I'm
very much a quote person, but there's two quotes, and
I think they've both come into play it different parts
of rebuilding again, and it's every day might not be
a good.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Day, but there is good in every day.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
It means you don't have to have the best day,
but there's something good that happened today. You know, even
if you can't see it, there would have been something.
And then I think another one is be the moon
and inspire people even when you're far from full.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
That's nice. I've never heard that one.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Those are two, and I think they have both come
into play it. Different parts of trying to rebuild.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
My life again, you know that have impacted me, I
think as well, like grief is different. I mean, you
and I talk a lot about this, but we obviously
have similarities and differences, and then we know that other
people in our life cope with it differently as well.
And you know, I don't ever compare my grief like
everyone's grief is valid. We've all lost a huge part
(30:58):
of our life and everyone deals with it differently and
that can be hard at times to accept and see
how different people cob or not cope and things like that.
But I think that that's also an element of it.
I think that comparison is a huge one. You might
not feel like some days you're as sad as you
should be, but that's okay. In those days where you falling.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
To pieces and other people are happier, you know, and
I think it's okay.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I think that's a really good point. Is grief is
different for everybody.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah. Absolutely. There's actually a quote that I came across
many years prior to this happening, and it's something that
I've said to myself a lot is what are you
willing to give up to have the life that you
keep pretending that you want? And I think that comes
into what we're talking about around creating this joy and
like our grief will always be here. So I think
(31:46):
that's something to say to anyone else experiencing grief is
to actually go, well, what is this taught me? And
how can I if I really want something or I
want to create a more joyful life, you know what
am I willing to give up? And for me, to
be honest, that was like full time work. Financially, I
need full time work. However, I don't want to lose
time with the kids, So that sort of comes into
(32:07):
play as well. As you're grieving, I think to go,
what do you want from this and what does this
mean moving forward? I don't think it's always about just
returning to your old life, because you won't ever return
to that that person in your life has gone, and
therefore the person that you were has gone as well.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Your last question, what insights all lessons have emerged from
doing this podcast.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I didn't think i'd be able to do this.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I am really grateful for you because you really encouraged
me and you said, Ash, we've got something worth sharing,
and I didn't have the confidence and I was nervous
to speak. But I've really learned that I guess I'm
worthy of sharing. But also it's been really powerful to feel.
(32:53):
I mean, these were conversations that you and I were
having anyway, and we sort of spoke about this podcast idea,
but I was still terrified and You're like, no, no,
like I've got you, and that was really amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I felt really sad. I'm like, yeah, like we've got
this and we can do this together. And we've been
navigating our grief.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
You know, yes, with our loved ones, but ultimately in
isolation as the widows and raising the kids on our own.
But yeah, it was something that was really nice to go, Yeah,
we can step into our power and we can share
something and we can support others, and that's something that's
really core to my values and yours is that what
we really believed in was providing inspiration and support to others,
(33:31):
and even though we've been through hell, we really wanted to.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Give that back.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And I've just felt more confident that, yeah, like I
can do this, and I really want to thank you
for that. And I would say that that's been probably
the biggest lesson that I've learned through this process.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
I'm so glad we did it.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
I can't believe we did it.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I think just life and Lemon stemmed from a really
big lemon that came into both of our lives. But
I think the purpose of this podcast was to provide,
like you said, some inspiration to other people. And lemons
don't have to be losing a loved one. They happen
every single day, and it's really how you navigate those
lemons and how you either navigate through them or you
(34:13):
turn them into something great, like we've done with this podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And I hope that we've been real through this podcast
journey as well to say we haven't got it all
figured out. We're genuinely trying our best every day, and
there are still moments of sadness, absolutely, and they always
will be, but we're so determined to find happiness for
ourselves and for our kids. And I think that that's
hopefully what we've shared with our listeners to say it's okay,
(34:38):
Lemons will continue coming our way, and it's how we
show up every day to navigate that together. So that's
probably a reminder, and that's what this podcast has been
for me, as a reminder that we can do it.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
We can do it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
And also we're showing our kids that we're not defined
by the doom and gloom. You know, we want to
live a joyful life and we want to live a
purposeful life, and we're showing them that we're doing it.
We're not just talking about.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
It, we're creating our narrative a we are.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Season two will be ready, but it will be a
little different. Kayla will be overseas in Canada living her
life and we'll still connect and still bring you a
great season.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next season.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
If you loved this episode, please don't keep it a secret,
Share it with a friend on social media and tag
us at Just Life and Lemons. Please click the follow
button and leave us a review. Just Life and Lemons
is not a mental health service or a substitute for
professional mental health advice, treatment, or assessment. Any conversations in
this podcast are general in nature. If you are struggling,
(35:44):
please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on one
three one one four
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