October 30, 2025 • 26 mins
Can't we all just get along? Yes! Dr. Kara Powell and Rev. Mike DeVito both share a passion for connecting the generations in their mutually held Christian faith. Kara is a nationally renowned author of "Sticky Faith" and the Executive Director of the Fuller Theological Seminary Youth Institute and Rev. Mike DeVito is a former youth pastor of 40+ years and advocate for both students and seniors and connecting the generations with purpose in God's Kingdom! If you're a parent, grandparent, student or just a person who cares about the unity of the generations in the church, then this episode is for you!
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Malachi 45 to 6 says, Look, I am sending you
the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of
the Lord arrives. His preaching will turn the hearts of
the fathers to their children and the hearts of their
children to their fathers. Otherwise, I will come and strike
the land with a curse. That's a pretty intense and
boding last prophetic end point of the Old Testament.
(00:37):
Which prepares the way of Jesus hundreds of years later.
But fear not, because we have a couple of people
here today on Kingdom and Culture who are going to
help us unpack this verse as it applies to today.
Reverend Mike DeVito, former youth pastor in National Network of
Youth Ministries' West Coast director and Dr. Kara Powell, who
is the chief of Leadership formation at Fuller Seminary and
(00:58):
the executive director of Fuller Youth Institute and the author
of Sticky Faith are both here today to help us
answer three important areas.
Of how culture impacts us and how we impact culture.
It is with purpose and how we practice our lives
out and for the future of our children, which we're
talking about today and the intergenerational connection that we all
(01:18):
have together. So, welcome to Kinmen Culture. Let's go. All right,
so I wanna just open up with some questions because
you guys are both pretty cool. Mike DeVito, you've been
in youth ministry for, well,
Since 1978. Wow, since I started. I'm not trying to
say wow as in wow, you sound.
(01:40):
Mature, but wow, that's a long time ago. And on
a relational level, Carrot, you, you, you are Mike DeVito's
youth person. You were in his youth
ministry.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, he was my youth pastor and his wife was
my first small group leader in high school. So I
don't know that I'd be doing what I do now
with young people if it wasn't for how God worked
through Mike and Christy. So it's great to be able
to have this conversation together.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
And as a former youth pastor myself, I know you
got to feel some pretty big pride, I could have
stopped the impact that you have multiplied myself so many
times over. I'm just
So out of her. Love it. Well, let's, uh, for
those that don't know who we are and what this
is all about, I'm gonna ask some questions and just
(02:26):
get us going with the conversation. And really it's about
connecting the generations together, which I know both of you
have a passion for. Uh, Kas written books and now
leading institutes and you're still going as you, uh, lead
at Mariners' Church and, and youth ministry and, and small groups. So, I, uh, Kara,
I want to ask you this, for the past 25 years, um,
(02:48):
Uh, or more, we have seen students engage, um, reject,
but most recently re-engage the church, um, and the gospel. Uh,
so in both of your experiences is actually for both
of you, so feel free to interchange as you respond here.
Um, and data collection, because Kara, that's, I think, one
of your expertise areas. What has been a common thread
(03:11):
through student and multi-generational ministry that you've seen develop over
these last 25 years? I know that's a large scope,
but I know somewhere in there you guys will be
able to pull something out. But what have you seen
as a common thread that has led us kind of
on this, this up and down journey to this point
where we're seeing an uptick, um, with the students?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, I remember a 15 year old once saying to
his youth leader, I'm tired of the church answering questions
I'm not asking. Wow. I'm tired of the church answering
questions I'm not asking. So thanks to a grant from
the Lilly Endowment, we were able to study the questions
that young people are actually asking, and we landed on 3.
(03:50):
And let me just tell you, as a leader and
as a parent of 3 young adults, these questions have
been so helpful for me.
Um, we think young people are asking questions of identity.
Who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose,
what difference can I make? Identity, belonging and purpose. So, Michael,
(04:11):
in the midst of the last 25 years of youth ministry,
I would say that is one of the common threads
is that young people are are asking those questions.
Uh, you know, in different eras, they come up with
different answers to those questions, but ultimately, Jesus is the
best and only fully satisfying answer to those questions. So
(04:32):
that's what Mike and I are really passionate about pointing
young people to Jesus's answers to those questions.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Very passionate. You know, the last.
I would say the last 10 years or so, one
of the things that I've seen youth ministry struggle with, Kara,
you can jump in on this is that
I, I call them the weapons of mass distraction. Uh,
they are, um, they're great things, athletics, academics, but we're
(05:00):
finding that students, they have, they, they're making a choice,
and they're not showing up to church like, like we
hope they do. Kara and Kara and I were together,
I mean,
We, we were probably meeting together. We had probably 34
times a week, and they're saying now, Kara, you could
affirm this that maybe it's twice a month that students
(05:22):
are showing up and parents too. So it's, it's made
it really difficult, uh, for youth workers to go to
the next level with their students, and then we hit
the pandemic. And so, coming out of that, hopefully, we're
seeing that change a little bit, but I'm seeing it
within my granddaughter.
Tonight, you know, we'll go to life group, but does
(05:43):
she have practice? Does she not have practice? And so
you just kind of have to kind of go with
the flow, but it's made it real challenging because sometimes
I look at youth workers and go, how can you
disciple somebody when you're only seeing them twice a month?
I don't care if you see a change in that, but, um,
but that's, that's been frustrating for youth workers.
(06:03):
Well, Kara, you, you had said too, uh, Jesus is
the answer, and obviously you want to dig more into
that and how that becomes uh the answer. But when
you're only spending a little bit of time with them,
hopefully something's hitting online as well, but you can't quantify
that really because the distraction online is there with their
phones and everything. But um as we, we dig into
(06:26):
Jesus being the answer, Kara, what have you found in
Um, in research or even in your, in your experiences
and writings and both of you, with regard to how
we get to that place of influencing culture, not just in,
I mean, because I'm going to be going to that
that you, you also said purpose, uh, which thankfully, yes,
we hit one of those questions in this, in this
(06:46):
whole episode, what the purpose is, both for us as
those who are older, as well as for students. So, um, yeah,
how do we get to that place of helping them
see that Jesus is the answer and connecting that to
their purpose?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, I'm actually right. Like, you know, students are coming
to church less because of their busyness and other factors.
And so, you know, I think that means we need
to do what God did through Jesus in terms of
being incarnational and go to where they are. Um, and
I love what one.
here in Southern California did. They, they did what we
(07:21):
encourage churches and adults to do, which is actually spend
time with young people, listen to young people, empathize with
young people, and they asked young people, you know, when
do you feel most at home? When do you feel
most connected to our church?
And what the young people said, this was a church
of maybe 3, 15 to 20 youth, uh, young people.
(07:41):
What these teenagers said is we love it when adults
come to our events. When they show up at our
soccer games, when they show up at our places, whatever
it is.
And so what this church has done is they've created
a Google doc where families and young people and any
adult can enter kids' events into this Google doc, so
church members can show up. And then they announce every
(08:05):
Sunday morning, they put up a slide where they just
highlight teenagers' events in the next few weeks. And so
the pastor was telling me about this, you know, he
said he was at a soccer game for a 16
year old because he had heard about it from the slide.
He looks down the sidelines and they
There's an 81 year old from the church, sitting there
in his lawn chair, cheering on the 16 year old.
And so, you know, uh, there's so many things I
(08:26):
love about that, that example. But first off, it's giving
young people a sense of belonging, identity belonging to purpose belonging.
It's going to where they are, and it's mobilizing adults, especially, uh,
senior adults. And Mike's done some really important work on this,
just the unique tenderness and connections that can happen between
teenagers and senior adults.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, that's, I'm seeing that happen. The other thing that
comes to my mind, Michael, is, is that not only
do we need the adults, but I really, I'm very
passionate still, probably since 1978.
About students making an impact on their campus. And we
call it SRS students reaching students. And so I'm just
(09:10):
really passionate about challenging students to maybe find a different
place to sit at lunch because they've gotten really comfortable,
get outside their comfort zone and start listening to their
friend's story. They don't even have to say anything about
Jesus because they will show it through their love and
compassion and serve them.
And so I'm challenging youth workers. If you wanna see
some growth in your youth ministry, challenge your students.
(09:33):
To find that place on the campus where they're impacting.
And then, you know, that's what I'm trying to do,
you know, I've walked life with these, these junior highers
and now we're moving into high school. But just being present,
and it's so nice as a 71 year old, that
these junior highers still want me around, and I think
that's what Kara is saying. And um but I just,
(09:55):
I think students, we got to challenge them about connecting
with their peers and then hopefully they'll bring them to church.
Well, and that you guys actually answered my next question.
What are some of the positive things we're seeing the
church do to do this, that, that Google doc? What
a great opportunity there. And Mike, you had mentioned even
uh seniors connecting with young adults and high school students
(10:16):
through pickleball. I mean, pickleball is a thing right now,
and what a great opportunity to go have fun.
And you know, some of those, dare I say, more
wise people, older ones, are showing young bucks what's up
because they have all that skill and ability that the
young ones are yet to learn. So I'm just speaking
(10:36):
as one who maybe is in that bracket of older
age people now. Kara, we haven't had a chance to
talk about this and uh but the whole identity of
belonging and purpose.
I have, I have implemented within the flourish group that
I'm going to on Sundays, 60s and older, those young
pups starting out at 60, but we're finding, Kara, that it's,
(10:59):
and Michael, it's the same thing. Senior adults want to belong.
They want to belong. And they, they, they're trying to
figure out who they are at this time and then
trying to find purpose. And I've just, Michael sounds like
a teenager. It's so fun to see because I, because
I started saying, we've got to do something about this.
(11:20):
We've got to get some senior adults engaging with, with
the next generation. And so make a long story short,
we got 5 seniors that graduated. I found 5 senior
adults and hooked them up, and they've been, and I'm
doing it too. They've been texting them and praying for them,
and one of the best stories is Sue and her friend.
Stella, she goes, Stella goes to Utah State. They spend
(11:43):
2 hours on the phone talking to each other. And
then what happened is, Stella came home for spring break.
Had friends with her, and guess who they went to visit?
They went to visit Sue. I thought, come on. That's awesome. Now,
I wish it was happening more and more, but I really,
that's where I'm at in my life right now. Not
(12:03):
only walking life with students, but trying to figure out
how we can connect the generations. Cause back in the day,
we talk about students feeling isolated, fragmented and abandoned.
Same thing with senior adults. Could it be possible? Could
it be possible that they empower each other, and he's
giving them power. So it's a challenge, but it's it's
(12:26):
worth fighting for. Well, if anybody's just joining us on
radio or podcasts, again, we have uh Doctor Kara Powell and,
and Reverend Mike DeVito here, both of these wonderful people are,
I would say, deeply involved in both youth ministry as well.
as parent and uh senior ministry in terms of um
connecting the generations. And as I said at the beginning
of this episode, or rather quoted Malachi 45 to 6,
(12:48):
that God wants to turn the hearts of the fathers,
that is older people to the children, that is teenagers
and the hearts of teenagers to the fathers and mothers,
that the generations ultimately could connect. And that's an interesting
endpoint of the Old Testament that God's heart is for
the generations to connect. He ends it all with that.
And then Jesus is born. And so it's like, wow, that's,
(13:09):
that's a major leap right there. And so I think
that might be important. That's an exclamation point that the
generations connect. So I think we're hopefully tying into something here. Uh, Kara, you, um,
you did write a book, or a few books rather,
but let's go with one that's pretty popular if people
don't know, Sticky Faith. And I'm gonna quote something you wrote,
so hopefully it sounds familiar to you since you wrote it. Um.
(13:32):
Uh, you said, how you express and live out your
faith may have a greater impact on your son or
daughter than anything else. Um, how, OK, so continue to
unpack that. That is to parents directly. And maybe, as
you were mentioning, Mike, uh, mentors, that how you live
out your faith may impact sons and daughters in the
(13:53):
faith and or your actual son and daughter more than
anything else. Can we impact that more? What does that
look like? And what are we seeing in terms of that?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that, Michael. I mean, I
just say a hearty amen to what Mike said earlier
about identity, belonging and purpose just being constant questions for
all of us. Me too. It's not just teenagers and
senior adults, it's all of us who are perhaps in between.
And so the more that we can talk about, uh,
our own journey for identity, belonging and purpose and what
(14:24):
we're experiencing in our own faith life, our own relationship
with Jesus, uh, the better. And uh, you know, I
think a lot of times, um.
We, we, we need to be more overt about what's
happening in our faith life. In other words, modeling is super,
super important, absolutely. And when that's paired with actual discussion,
(14:47):
that's all the better.
So, you know, when our sticky faith research was just
coming out, um, if my son Nathan, who was in
the elementary school at the time, if he would come
in and see me pray and say, hey, mom, you know,
where are my tennis shoes, um, before our research, I
would have said, I think they're down the hall, you know,
in the laundry room. Well, after.
After our research, not only did I see the importance
(15:08):
of modeling, but also the importance of talking about my faith.
And so, you know, after our research, and Nathan came
in and said, Mom, where are my tennis shoes, before
I gave him an answer, I would say, hey, bud,
you know, can I show you the prayer, the page
in my prayer journal where I'm praying for you?
And how can I be praying for you? And so,
and by the way, the shoes are down the hall
(15:29):
by the laundry room. So, you know, I eventually got
to where the shoes are. So, you know, I just
want to say for mentors, for families, you know, that's
the ideal. It's when we're living our faith, but then
when we're also talking about it so that young people
can understand.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I thought you were going to say something like, uh,
let's walk in the shoes of Jesus and find them.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Oh, Michael, where were you
Speaker 1 (15:51):
that you did better
than I do because that's totally cheesy and that's probably
what I would have done. I probably have done something
like that actually with my three kids and they're probably
despising me now because of it. But uh anyway, now
my kids are good, they're doing well. Um, but OK,
that's good. So modeling, yeah, Mike, anything you got there?
One of the things because in my mind, I think,
and I think in the research that they're doing is
(16:11):
the influence that parents have. Yeah.
Um, and we try to figure out how to do
that because I, I mean, as in the church youth ministry,
because I remember in those early days, we were afraid
to kind of connect with them because we didn't know
how they were going to get mad at us or whatever.
But I really believe the church, senior pastors and speaking
(16:32):
to the church, to parents trying to
Provide resources and just really challenge them along the lines
of how to disciple, how to love their kids, because
if they still are a major, they are a major influence,
I think we're trying to figure that out and I'm,
I'm not sure, you know, how we're doing because I
talked to a lot of youth workers and they're, they're
(16:54):
still struggling because usually when parents show up to something,
it's usually the ones that don't need it, you know,
and especially if we're in a setting where a lot
of kids' parents don't come.
It's something I think to really, it's really to think
about and grapple with. Well, I mean, I think of
the parable of four soils. There's so many distractions. Like
people receive the word of God with joy and, oh yeah,
(17:15):
I want to do the good things. And Google Doc,
what a great idea. Pickleball sounds great. And then when
it comes time to actually do the thing, oh, but
there's these other things I need to do. I need,
I need to go do that. There's a lot of
distraction and it's, it's hard to get that commitment for sure. Uh,
and maybe it's the heart of it, the hearts of
the fathers, hearts of the children.
So, and I think Carrie, you mentioned this earlier, listening,
(17:36):
how we listen to each other, how we, how we
listen to students as older ones listen to students and
vice versa, you know, uh, uh, a classic parent line,
I've said it in joking to my children, respect my authority,
you know, it's like you're the parent and you, you
hope your children will respect you and but how might
students and parents proactively listen to each other better.
(17:58):
To both impact their faith because my kids, their faith
impacts me. When the light goes on in them, I'm
inspired by their passion for Jesus. Uh, you know, I'm
not just teaching them something, they're teaching me something.
So how do we, what, what kind of tools can
we give both students and parents to better listen to
each other? Maybe it is as simple as playing pickleball
(18:20):
and going to coffee together. I don't know. I know
if I tell my daughter, hey, I'm going to buy
you a cup of coffee for free, that that is off,
it's not free for me, it's free for her. She's
usually down for it, but my 19 year old
anyway.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, sure. Well, thanks for mentioning that, Michael, because, you know,
and there are research at the Fuller Youth Institute genuinely,
the primary question has been how are churches, how are ministry.
How are adults impacting young people? But every time we
study that we see the direction goes both ways. And
you know, Mike, you're Sue and Stella's story. I love
that story. And you know who's been impacted by that?
(18:53):
The senior adult, not just the teenager and her friends. So, um,
you know, Michael, I would just say this is where we,
we need to get as practical as possible. So for,
for leaders who are listening or watching this, I would
say like give, give parents or adults questions.
Um, you know, I, I highly recommend that if you're
teaching regularly, uh, to young people, like, have a way
(19:16):
to communicate, text, email, whatever it is to parents and
give them a couple questions to talk about afterwards for
that car ride home or maybe the next day at dinner,
and I even love it when churches and nonprofits give, uh,
a question or two to talk about ahead of time because,
you know, the message that that sends is that the
conversation starts at home and then is reinforced by the church.
(19:39):
So, so, you know, and that's what I need as
a parent. I have a PhD in practical theology, and
I still need really tangible tools to know how to
talk to my kids. In fact, I mean, uh, one
of our, uh, I'll be super, super candid, uh, this morning, I,
there's something that my husband and I want to talk
about with one of our kids. And so I went
on to AI and asked AI like, give me some
(20:02):
questions that we can ask our kid about this. And
they gave AI gave me 2 or 3.
Three great questions that Dave and I are gonna talk
about tonight and then hopefully have the conversation in the
next few days. So, uh, so you know, whether it's AI,
whether it's, uh, others that you talk to other parents,
other adults you respect where you say, gosh, how can
I bring this up? I, I appreciate, Michael, that you
(20:24):
said questions because, you know, one of our mantras out
of our research for adults, both mentors and parents, uh, stepparents, caregivers,
guardians is never make a statement if you can ask.
A question instead. You'll never make a statement if you,
you know, I give myself about a C+ on that. Um, but,
you know, as Dave and I are getting ready to
(20:45):
have this conversation with our young adult child, hopefully this week, like,
we're thinking not about what do we want to lecture
them on, but what questions can we ask that can
open up a real generative conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Well, Jesus did that a lot. He would say, Who's
inscribed on the coin? Well, Caesar, well then give to
Caesar what to see. Oh, he's a genius. Jesus is
a genius. Yeah,
Anybody in a lecture,
it was
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Like if anybody had the right to lecture, it was
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So he asked questions and listened
Speaker 2 (21:13):
instead, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Hey, you know, as you guys talk, we're talking about listening.
I think I hadn't thought about it till just right
now because I've written it down here and challenging students
of how to listen to their friends, but also for
their parents. I've challenged them to think about you can
listen not only with your ears, but with your eyes,
observing listen with your mind.
(21:35):
Listen with your heart.
And listen with your hands. Come on, baby. That preach
stuff together. But I'm just saying it's, it, I think
it's it's, it's enveloping kind of relationship with them and
really seeing them because I think sometimes we hear, but
we don't hear. But if we, we go into using
those other senses where you get your hands and your
(21:57):
feet involved in the listening that you're all of a sudden.
You're showing up to something together. Exactly, yeah, and appreciating
each other. Well, with the limited time we have, um, uh.
I, you know, I wanna, you know, pan out just
a little bit and care you kind of got there, but, um, collectively, what,
(22:18):
what would be your hope for the church right now,
both young and old, as it pertains to multi-generational connection.
And, uh, and doing life together, uh, how, how do
we continue to meet each other? What, how, I, I
guess the question, it's kind of a question slash hope
I'm going to state. I'm trying to be questioned here,
(22:40):
give good question, but how do we integrate, what do
we want to see next? Uh, what's our hope? Where
where do we want to leave this? I mean, this conversation,
of course, but
Where do we want to leave people and, you know,
to be true to kingdom and culture, how do we
impact the kingdom by impacting culture? And I really believe
students are on the cutting edge of culture. I have
(23:02):
to ask my, my kids, Hey, is this cool? Does,
does my, is my fit on? Am I, am I,
can I walk out like this? And my daughter will say, yeah.
Dad, you're good, or no, Dad, you need to go change.
So they're on the cutting edge of culture. So how
do we do that together? And then Mike, I'm gonna
have you pray us out just with a blessing. But yeah,
in a couple 30 seconds or so. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I'm
constantly. I'm constantly asking my daughters, can I pull this
off for when it comes to something I'm trying to wear.
So anyway, um, so here's the great news about young people.
They're hungry for Jesus. There's so much research that is
showing this, that they are drawn to Jesus. They see
Jesus as loving, kind.
Uh, and, and they're he's like a magnet for young people,
(23:43):
which is awesome. Here's the challenge. While they're hungry for Jesus,
they're hesitant about the church, and we have to rebuild
trust with this generation because they see the church and
Christian adults as judgmental, negative, etc. Just two weeks ago,
I was speaking in Ontario here in Southern California, and
a woman came up to me afterwards and she said,
(24:05):
I want to tell you this story.
Uh, when her kids were in elementary school, her husband
passed away. So she was a widow with 3 young kids.
And at the funeral, this widow didn't know the pastor
was gonna do it, but the pastor, he was close
to the husband, and, you know, he was crying during
the funeral, and he said to these 3 little kids
sitting on the front row of the funeral service,
(24:25):
You know, guys, your dad, he can't show up at
your basketball games anymore. He can't be your soccer coach anymore.
But we, the men in this church, we are going
to step in and, and be that support for you.
And he said to the men, if you're willing to
be a support for this family, men, would you stand up?
And like men all over the funeral service did.
(24:46):
And as the woman is telling me the story, I'm thinking, oh,
I hope the men came through. I hope the men
came through. And she continued on and she said, and
those men delivered. They showed up. She said, I was
working full time because I had to put food on
the table, and they were at my kids' games. They
were that safe place for my, my kids.
And so you know, if, if we can all have
that kind of mentality as adults like what kids are
(25:08):
we investing in our own and other kids, we can
rebuild that trust and help young people really experience the
fullness of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Hearts of the fathers of the children, the children of
the fathers. I love it.
Mike, would you pray us out a blessing in light
of everything going on in schools, campuses, the church, young
people's lives and our culture, just pray a blessing. Father,
we thank you again today for this opportunity to come
and encourage one another and stir one another on toward
love and good deeds. Lord, I thank you for the research,
(25:38):
for the resources that Sarah and Fuller have provided.
And Lord, we, we just pray for more adults in
the lives of kids. We pray that you would give
parents the ability to connect like they've never connected before.
We pray for our churches that our churches will understand
what is happening within the generations that we can, we
(25:59):
can see how we can belong together, how we can
help with our identity and how we can have purpose.
So Father, we thank you. We pray for those that
are listening today, that may be something they've said that
they can grab on to.
We ask these things in your son's name. Amen. Well,
thank you, Doctor Kara Powell and uh Mike DeVito. Thank
you so much for being on Kingdom and Culture and
(26:21):
uh we'll see you next time on Kingdom and Culture.
Malachi 45 to 6 says, Look, I am sending you
the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of
the Lord arrives. His preaching will turn the hearts of
the fathers to their children and the hearts of their
children to their fathers. Otherwise, I will come and strike
the land with a curse. That's a pretty intense and
boding last prophetic end point of the Old Testament.
(00:37):
Which prepares the way of Jesus hundreds of years later.
But fear not, because we have a couple of people
here today on Kingdom and Culture who are going to
help us unpack this verse as it applies to today.
Reverend Mike DeVito, former youth pastor in National Network of
Youth Ministries' West Coast director and Dr. Kara Powell, who
is the chief of Leadership formation at Fuller Seminary and
(00:58):
the executive director of Fuller Youth Institute and the author
of Sticky Faith are both here today to help us
answer three important areas.
Of how culture impacts us and how we impact culture.
It is with purpose and how we practice our lives
out and for the future of our children, which we're
talking about today and the intergenerational connection that we all
(01:18):
have together. So, welcome to Kinmen Culture. Let's go. All right,
so I wanna just open up with some questions because
you guys are both pretty cool. Mike DeVito, you've been
in youth ministry for, well,
Since 1978. Wow, since I started. I'm not trying to
say wow as in wow, you sound.
(01:40):
Mature, but wow, that's a long time ago. And on
a relational level, Carrot, you, you, you are Mike DeVito's
youth person. You were in his youth
ministry.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, he was my youth pastor and his wife was
my first small group leader in high school. So I
don't know that I'd be doing what I do now
with young people if it wasn't for how God worked
through Mike and Christy. So it's great to be able
to have this conversation together.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
And as a former youth pastor myself, I know you
got to feel some pretty big pride, I could have
stopped the impact that you have multiplied myself so many
times over. I'm just
So out of her. Love it. Well, let's, uh, for
those that don't know who we are and what this
is all about, I'm gonna ask some questions and just
(02:26):
get us going with the conversation. And really it's about
connecting the generations together, which I know both of you
have a passion for. Uh, Kas written books and now
leading institutes and you're still going as you, uh, lead
at Mariners' Church and, and youth ministry and, and small groups. So, I, uh, Kara,
I want to ask you this, for the past 25 years, um,
(02:48):
Uh, or more, we have seen students engage, um, reject,
but most recently re-engage the church, um, and the gospel. Uh,
so in both of your experiences is actually for both
of you, so feel free to interchange as you respond here.
Um, and data collection, because Kara, that's, I think, one
of your expertise areas. What has been a common thread
(03:11):
through student and multi-generational ministry that you've seen develop over
these last 25 years? I know that's a large scope,
but I know somewhere in there you guys will be
able to pull something out. But what have you seen
as a common thread that has led us kind of
on this, this up and down journey to this point
where we're seeing an uptick, um, with the students?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, I remember a 15 year old once saying to
his youth leader, I'm tired of the church answering questions
I'm not asking. Wow. I'm tired of the church answering
questions I'm not asking. So thanks to a grant from
the Lilly Endowment, we were able to study the questions
that young people are actually asking, and we landed on 3.
(03:50):
And let me just tell you, as a leader and
as a parent of 3 young adults, these questions have
been so helpful for me.
Um, we think young people are asking questions of identity.
Who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose,
what difference can I make? Identity, belonging and purpose. So, Michael,
(04:11):
in the midst of the last 25 years of youth ministry,
I would say that is one of the common threads
is that young people are are asking those questions.
Uh, you know, in different eras, they come up with
different answers to those questions, but ultimately, Jesus is the
best and only fully satisfying answer to those questions. So
(04:32):
that's what Mike and I are really passionate about pointing
young people to Jesus's answers to those questions.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Very passionate. You know, the last.
I would say the last 10 years or so, one
of the things that I've seen youth ministry struggle with, Kara,
you can jump in on this is that
I, I call them the weapons of mass distraction. Uh,
they are, um, they're great things, athletics, academics, but we're
(05:00):
finding that students, they have, they, they're making a choice,
and they're not showing up to church like, like we
hope they do. Kara and Kara and I were together,
I mean,
We, we were probably meeting together. We had probably 34
times a week, and they're saying now, Kara, you could
affirm this that maybe it's twice a month that students
(05:22):
are showing up and parents too. So it's, it's made
it really difficult, uh, for youth workers to go to
the next level with their students, and then we hit
the pandemic. And so, coming out of that, hopefully, we're
seeing that change a little bit, but I'm seeing it
within my granddaughter.
Tonight, you know, we'll go to life group, but does
(05:43):
she have practice? Does she not have practice? And so
you just kind of have to kind of go with
the flow, but it's made it real challenging because sometimes
I look at youth workers and go, how can you
disciple somebody when you're only seeing them twice a month?
I don't care if you see a change in that, but, um,
but that's, that's been frustrating for youth workers.
(06:03):
Well, Kara, you, you had said too, uh, Jesus is
the answer, and obviously you want to dig more into
that and how that becomes uh the answer. But when
you're only spending a little bit of time with them,
hopefully something's hitting online as well, but you can't quantify
that really because the distraction online is there with their
phones and everything. But um as we, we dig into
(06:26):
Jesus being the answer, Kara, what have you found in
Um, in research or even in your, in your experiences
and writings and both of you, with regard to how
we get to that place of influencing culture, not just in,
I mean, because I'm going to be going to that
that you, you also said purpose, uh, which thankfully, yes,
we hit one of those questions in this, in this
(06:46):
whole episode, what the purpose is, both for us as
those who are older, as well as for students. So, um, yeah,
how do we get to that place of helping them
see that Jesus is the answer and connecting that to
their purpose?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, I'm actually right. Like, you know, students are coming
to church less because of their busyness and other factors.
And so, you know, I think that means we need
to do what God did through Jesus in terms of
being incarnational and go to where they are. Um, and
I love what one.
here in Southern California did. They, they did what we
(07:21):
encourage churches and adults to do, which is actually spend
time with young people, listen to young people, empathize with
young people, and they asked young people, you know, when
do you feel most at home? When do you feel
most connected to our church?
And what the young people said, this was a church
of maybe 3, 15 to 20 youth, uh, young people.
(07:41):
What these teenagers said is we love it when adults
come to our events. When they show up at our
soccer games, when they show up at our places, whatever
it is.
And so what this church has done is they've created
a Google doc where families and young people and any
adult can enter kids' events into this Google doc, so
church members can show up. And then they announce every
(08:05):
Sunday morning, they put up a slide where they just
highlight teenagers' events in the next few weeks. And so
the pastor was telling me about this, you know, he
said he was at a soccer game for a 16
year old because he had heard about it from the slide.
He looks down the sidelines and they
There's an 81 year old from the church, sitting there
in his lawn chair, cheering on the 16 year old.
And so, you know, uh, there's so many things I
(08:26):
love about that, that example. But first off, it's giving
young people a sense of belonging, identity belonging to purpose belonging.
It's going to where they are, and it's mobilizing adults, especially, uh,
senior adults. And Mike's done some really important work on this,
just the unique tenderness and connections that can happen between
teenagers and senior adults.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, that's, I'm seeing that happen. The other thing that
comes to my mind, Michael, is, is that not only
do we need the adults, but I really, I'm very
passionate still, probably since 1978.
About students making an impact on their campus. And we
call it SRS students reaching students. And so I'm just
(09:10):
really passionate about challenging students to maybe find a different
place to sit at lunch because they've gotten really comfortable,
get outside their comfort zone and start listening to their
friend's story. They don't even have to say anything about
Jesus because they will show it through their love and
compassion and serve them.
And so I'm challenging youth workers. If you wanna see
some growth in your youth ministry, challenge your students.
(09:33):
To find that place on the campus where they're impacting.
And then, you know, that's what I'm trying to do,
you know, I've walked life with these, these junior highers
and now we're moving into high school. But just being present,
and it's so nice as a 71 year old, that
these junior highers still want me around, and I think
that's what Kara is saying. And um but I just,
(09:55):
I think students, we got to challenge them about connecting
with their peers and then hopefully they'll bring them to church.
Well, and that you guys actually answered my next question.
What are some of the positive things we're seeing the
church do to do this, that, that Google doc? What
a great opportunity there. And Mike, you had mentioned even
uh seniors connecting with young adults and high school students
(10:16):
through pickleball. I mean, pickleball is a thing right now,
and what a great opportunity to go have fun.
And you know, some of those, dare I say, more
wise people, older ones, are showing young bucks what's up
because they have all that skill and ability that the
young ones are yet to learn. So I'm just speaking
(10:36):
as one who maybe is in that bracket of older
age people now. Kara, we haven't had a chance to
talk about this and uh but the whole identity of
belonging and purpose.
I have, I have implemented within the flourish group that
I'm going to on Sundays, 60s and older, those young
pups starting out at 60, but we're finding, Kara, that it's,
(10:59):
and Michael, it's the same thing. Senior adults want to belong.
They want to belong. And they, they, they're trying to
figure out who they are at this time and then
trying to find purpose. And I've just, Michael sounds like
a teenager. It's so fun to see because I, because
I started saying, we've got to do something about this.
(11:20):
We've got to get some senior adults engaging with, with
the next generation. And so make a long story short,
we got 5 seniors that graduated. I found 5 senior
adults and hooked them up, and they've been, and I'm
doing it too. They've been texting them and praying for them,
and one of the best stories is Sue and her friend.
Stella, she goes, Stella goes to Utah State. They spend
(11:43):
2 hours on the phone talking to each other. And
then what happened is, Stella came home for spring break.
Had friends with her, and guess who they went to visit?
They went to visit Sue. I thought, come on. That's awesome. Now,
I wish it was happening more and more, but I really,
that's where I'm at in my life right now. Not
(12:03):
only walking life with students, but trying to figure out
how we can connect the generations. Cause back in the day,
we talk about students feeling isolated, fragmented and abandoned.
Same thing with senior adults. Could it be possible? Could
it be possible that they empower each other, and he's
giving them power. So it's a challenge, but it's it's
(12:26):
worth fighting for. Well, if anybody's just joining us on
radio or podcasts, again, we have uh Doctor Kara Powell and,
and Reverend Mike DeVito here, both of these wonderful people are,
I would say, deeply involved in both youth ministry as well.
as parent and uh senior ministry in terms of um
connecting the generations. And as I said at the beginning
of this episode, or rather quoted Malachi 45 to 6,
(12:48):
that God wants to turn the hearts of the fathers,
that is older people to the children, that is teenagers
and the hearts of teenagers to the fathers and mothers,
that the generations ultimately could connect. And that's an interesting
endpoint of the Old Testament that God's heart is for
the generations to connect. He ends it all with that.
And then Jesus is born. And so it's like, wow, that's,
(13:09):
that's a major leap right there. And so I think
that might be important. That's an exclamation point that the
generations connect. So I think we're hopefully tying into something here. Uh, Kara, you, um,
you did write a book, or a few books rather,
but let's go with one that's pretty popular if people
don't know, Sticky Faith. And I'm gonna quote something you wrote,
so hopefully it sounds familiar to you since you wrote it. Um.
(13:32):
Uh, you said, how you express and live out your
faith may have a greater impact on your son or
daughter than anything else. Um, how, OK, so continue to
unpack that. That is to parents directly. And maybe, as
you were mentioning, Mike, uh, mentors, that how you live
out your faith may impact sons and daughters in the
(13:53):
faith and or your actual son and daughter more than
anything else. Can we impact that more? What does that
look like? And what are we seeing in terms of that?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that, Michael. I mean, I
just say a hearty amen to what Mike said earlier
about identity, belonging and purpose just being constant questions for
all of us. Me too. It's not just teenagers and
senior adults, it's all of us who are perhaps in between.
And so the more that we can talk about, uh,
our own journey for identity, belonging and purpose and what
(14:24):
we're experiencing in our own faith life, our own relationship
with Jesus, uh, the better. And uh, you know, I
think a lot of times, um.
We, we, we need to be more overt about what's
happening in our faith life. In other words, modeling is super,
super important, absolutely. And when that's paired with actual discussion,
(14:47):
that's all the better.
So, you know, when our sticky faith research was just
coming out, um, if my son Nathan, who was in
the elementary school at the time, if he would come
in and see me pray and say, hey, mom, you know,
where are my tennis shoes, um, before our research, I
would have said, I think they're down the hall, you know,
in the laundry room. Well, after.
After our research, not only did I see the importance
(15:08):
of modeling, but also the importance of talking about my faith.
And so, you know, after our research, and Nathan came
in and said, Mom, where are my tennis shoes, before
I gave him an answer, I would say, hey, bud,
you know, can I show you the prayer, the page
in my prayer journal where I'm praying for you?
And how can I be praying for you? And so,
and by the way, the shoes are down the hall
(15:29):
by the laundry room. So, you know, I eventually got
to where the shoes are. So, you know, I just
want to say for mentors, for families, you know, that's
the ideal. It's when we're living our faith, but then
when we're also talking about it so that young people
can understand.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I thought you were going to say something like, uh,
let's walk in the shoes of Jesus and find them.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Oh, Michael, where were you
Speaker 1 (15:51):
that you did better
than I do because that's totally cheesy and that's probably
what I would have done. I probably have done something
like that actually with my three kids and they're probably
despising me now because of it. But uh anyway, now
my kids are good, they're doing well. Um, but OK,
that's good. So modeling, yeah, Mike, anything you got there?
One of the things because in my mind, I think,
and I think in the research that they're doing is
(16:11):
the influence that parents have. Yeah.
Um, and we try to figure out how to do
that because I, I mean, as in the church youth ministry,
because I remember in those early days, we were afraid
to kind of connect with them because we didn't know
how they were going to get mad at us or whatever.
But I really believe the church, senior pastors and speaking
(16:32):
to the church, to parents trying to
Provide resources and just really challenge them along the lines
of how to disciple, how to love their kids, because
if they still are a major, they are a major influence,
I think we're trying to figure that out and I'm,
I'm not sure, you know, how we're doing because I
talked to a lot of youth workers and they're, they're
(16:54):
still struggling because usually when parents show up to something,
it's usually the ones that don't need it, you know,
and especially if we're in a setting where a lot
of kids' parents don't come.
It's something I think to really, it's really to think
about and grapple with. Well, I mean, I think of
the parable of four soils. There's so many distractions. Like
people receive the word of God with joy and, oh yeah,
(17:15):
I want to do the good things. And Google Doc,
what a great idea. Pickleball sounds great. And then when
it comes time to actually do the thing, oh, but
there's these other things I need to do. I need,
I need to go do that. There's a lot of
distraction and it's, it's hard to get that commitment for sure. Uh,
and maybe it's the heart of it, the hearts of
the fathers, hearts of the children.
So, and I think Carrie, you mentioned this earlier, listening,
(17:36):
how we listen to each other, how we, how we
listen to students as older ones listen to students and
vice versa, you know, uh, uh, a classic parent line,
I've said it in joking to my children, respect my authority,
you know, it's like you're the parent and you, you
hope your children will respect you and but how might
students and parents proactively listen to each other better.
(17:58):
To both impact their faith because my kids, their faith
impacts me. When the light goes on in them, I'm
inspired by their passion for Jesus. Uh, you know, I'm
not just teaching them something, they're teaching me something.
So how do we, what, what kind of tools can
we give both students and parents to better listen to
each other? Maybe it is as simple as playing pickleball
(18:20):
and going to coffee together. I don't know. I know
if I tell my daughter, hey, I'm going to buy
you a cup of coffee for free, that that is off,
it's not free for me, it's free for her. She's
usually down for it, but my 19 year old
anyway.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, sure. Well, thanks for mentioning that, Michael, because, you know,
and there are research at the Fuller Youth Institute genuinely,
the primary question has been how are churches, how are ministry.
How are adults impacting young people? But every time we
study that we see the direction goes both ways. And
you know, Mike, you're Sue and Stella's story. I love
that story. And you know who's been impacted by that?
(18:53):
The senior adult, not just the teenager and her friends. So, um,
you know, Michael, I would just say this is where we,
we need to get as practical as possible. So for,
for leaders who are listening or watching this, I would
say like give, give parents or adults questions.
Um, you know, I, I highly recommend that if you're
teaching regularly, uh, to young people, like, have a way
(19:16):
to communicate, text, email, whatever it is to parents and
give them a couple questions to talk about afterwards for
that car ride home or maybe the next day at dinner,
and I even love it when churches and nonprofits give, uh,
a question or two to talk about ahead of time because,
you know, the message that that sends is that the
conversation starts at home and then is reinforced by the church.
(19:39):
So, so, you know, and that's what I need as
a parent. I have a PhD in practical theology, and
I still need really tangible tools to know how to
talk to my kids. In fact, I mean, uh, one
of our, uh, I'll be super, super candid, uh, this morning, I,
there's something that my husband and I want to talk
about with one of our kids. And so I went
on to AI and asked AI like, give me some
(20:02):
questions that we can ask our kid about this. And
they gave AI gave me 2 or 3.
Three great questions that Dave and I are gonna talk
about tonight and then hopefully have the conversation in the
next few days. So, uh, so you know, whether it's AI,
whether it's, uh, others that you talk to other parents,
other adults you respect where you say, gosh, how can
I bring this up? I, I appreciate, Michael, that you
(20:24):
said questions because, you know, one of our mantras out
of our research for adults, both mentors and parents, uh, stepparents, caregivers,
guardians is never make a statement if you can ask.
A question instead. You'll never make a statement if you,
you know, I give myself about a C+ on that. Um, but,
you know, as Dave and I are getting ready to
(20:45):
have this conversation with our young adult child, hopefully this week, like,
we're thinking not about what do we want to lecture
them on, but what questions can we ask that can
open up a real generative conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Well, Jesus did that a lot. He would say, Who's
inscribed on the coin? Well, Caesar, well then give to
Caesar what to see. Oh, he's a genius. Jesus is
a genius. Yeah,
Anybody in a lecture,
it was
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Like if anybody had the right to lecture, it was
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So he asked questions and listened
Speaker 2 (21:13):
instead, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Hey, you know, as you guys talk, we're talking about listening.
I think I hadn't thought about it till just right
now because I've written it down here and challenging students
of how to listen to their friends, but also for
their parents. I've challenged them to think about you can
listen not only with your ears, but with your eyes,
observing listen with your mind.
(21:35):
Listen with your heart.
And listen with your hands. Come on, baby. That preach
stuff together. But I'm just saying it's, it, I think
it's it's, it's enveloping kind of relationship with them and
really seeing them because I think sometimes we hear, but
we don't hear. But if we, we go into using
those other senses where you get your hands and your
(21:57):
feet involved in the listening that you're all of a sudden.
You're showing up to something together. Exactly, yeah, and appreciating
each other. Well, with the limited time we have, um, uh.
I, you know, I wanna, you know, pan out just
a little bit and care you kind of got there, but, um, collectively, what,
(22:18):
what would be your hope for the church right now,
both young and old, as it pertains to multi-generational connection.
And, uh, and doing life together, uh, how, how do
we continue to meet each other? What, how, I, I
guess the question, it's kind of a question slash hope
I'm going to state. I'm trying to be questioned here,
(22:40):
give good question, but how do we integrate, what do
we want to see next? Uh, what's our hope? Where
where do we want to leave this? I mean, this conversation,
of course, but
Where do we want to leave people and, you know,
to be true to kingdom and culture, how do we
impact the kingdom by impacting culture? And I really believe
students are on the cutting edge of culture. I have
(23:02):
to ask my, my kids, Hey, is this cool? Does,
does my, is my fit on? Am I, am I,
can I walk out like this? And my daughter will say, yeah.
Dad, you're good, or no, Dad, you need to go change.
So they're on the cutting edge of culture. So how
do we do that together? And then Mike, I'm gonna
have you pray us out just with a blessing. But yeah,
in a couple 30 seconds or so. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I'm
constantly. I'm constantly asking my daughters, can I pull this
off for when it comes to something I'm trying to wear.
So anyway, um, so here's the great news about young people.
They're hungry for Jesus. There's so much research that is
showing this, that they are drawn to Jesus. They see
Jesus as loving, kind.
Uh, and, and they're he's like a magnet for young people,
(23:43):
which is awesome. Here's the challenge. While they're hungry for Jesus,
they're hesitant about the church, and we have to rebuild
trust with this generation because they see the church and
Christian adults as judgmental, negative, etc. Just two weeks ago,
I was speaking in Ontario here in Southern California, and
a woman came up to me afterwards and she said,
(24:05):
I want to tell you this story.
Uh, when her kids were in elementary school, her husband
passed away. So she was a widow with 3 young kids.
And at the funeral, this widow didn't know the pastor
was gonna do it, but the pastor, he was close
to the husband, and, you know, he was crying during
the funeral, and he said to these 3 little kids
sitting on the front row of the funeral service,
(24:25):
You know, guys, your dad, he can't show up at
your basketball games anymore. He can't be your soccer coach anymore.
But we, the men in this church, we are going
to step in and, and be that support for you.
And he said to the men, if you're willing to
be a support for this family, men, would you stand up?
And like men all over the funeral service did.
(24:46):
And as the woman is telling me the story, I'm thinking, oh,
I hope the men came through. I hope the men
came through. And she continued on and she said, and
those men delivered. They showed up. She said, I was
working full time because I had to put food on
the table, and they were at my kids' games. They
were that safe place for my, my kids.
And so you know, if, if we can all have
that kind of mentality as adults like what kids are
(25:08):
we investing in our own and other kids, we can
rebuild that trust and help young people really experience the
fullness of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Hearts of the fathers of the children, the children of
the fathers. I love it.
Mike, would you pray us out a blessing in light
of everything going on in schools, campuses, the church, young
people's lives and our culture, just pray a blessing. Father,
we thank you again today for this opportunity to come
and encourage one another and stir one another on toward
love and good deeds. Lord, I thank you for the research,
(25:38):
for the resources that Sarah and Fuller have provided.
And Lord, we, we just pray for more adults in
the lives of kids. We pray that you would give
parents the ability to connect like they've never connected before.
We pray for our churches that our churches will understand
what is happening within the generations that we can, we
(25:59):
can see how we can belong together, how we can
help with our identity and how we can have purpose.
So Father, we thank you. We pray for those that
are listening today, that may be something they've said that
they can grab on to.
We ask these things in your son's name. Amen. Well,
thank you, Doctor Kara Powell and uh Mike DeVito. Thank
you so much for being on Kingdom and Culture and
(26:21):
uh we'll see you next time on Kingdom and Culture.
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.