November 19, 2025 • 28 mins
“What is God’s will for my life? What is my purpose for living? Why am I here?” World renowned Social Scientist & author of over 30 books, including “The Call”, Dr. Os Guinness joins K&C, along with University & Theology Professor, Dr. Richard Park to answer these and other existential questions about life, according to the word of God and “God‘s call” on our lives. If you’ve ever wondered what God‘s purpose is for you or if you are going through a season of doubt, this episode is for you!
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Maybe some of you have asked what is God's will
for my life? What is my purpose? What do I
want to do when I grow up? I'm almost 50
years old. I just blasted out on the Internet, and
I still want to know what I'm gonna do when
I grow up because I'm planning on living to be
100 as long as I can think straight and walk straight,
so there's that.
But these are deep questions on identity and purpose, and
(00:37):
they seem to be as applicable today for people as
they were, I think way back when, where you got
people like Joseph in the Bible who was sold into
slavery by his brothers and then was put into jail
for a crime he didn't commit. I think most of
us who know our Bible know this story and if
you don't read up Genesis late parts of Genesis, it's
(00:58):
amazing and yet God was with him. God gave him
a sense of purpose even in the midst of struggle.
And what I want to unpack today is if we
can get to the place where we.
Experience God's.
Sense of, well, our sense of purpose in Christ, that's
what we wanna do. I'm gonna give you one scripture verse,
Romans 12:12 says, therefore I urge you brothers and sisters,
(01:21):
in view of God's mercy to offer your bodies as
living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. This is your
spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to
the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the
renewing of your mind. And here's the payoff pitch for
our purpose today.
And then you will be able to test and approve
what God's will is, His good, pleasing, and perfect will, will.
(01:45):
So today our guests, we have, uh, Oz Guinness, Doctor
Oz Guinness, who has worked at Oxford and I believe
is still connected with Oxford University and.
Is uh a a uh help me out Doctor Rich. Well,
the social sciences is his background and he's a theologian
(02:05):
as we talked about anybody who talks about God as
a theologian in many respects. We also have Doctor Richard
Park who is a professor of theology and at a
local university, and both of these awesome men of God
are going to help us unpack what God's will is
for our lives. So no pressure, gentlemen.
We want God's will and you're going to tell us
God's will today, so I say that a little facetiously,
(02:28):
but I just want to start off with both of
you guys, uh, Doctor Oz, Doctor Rich Park, if you
guys could give us just a little context and what
you're doing right now, where you live, and just a
little interest so our listeners on radio and on podcast
can know who you guys are.
After you, Rich. Oh, well, all right, um, so yeah, Mike,
I mean, as you know, I, I teach over at
Vanguard University in the theology department. I'm, um, honored to
(02:51):
lead their honors program there as well, and I also
help run a nonprofit organization, the Renaissance Group, but we're
actually a lot of our work is to help folks
figure out their calling in life.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I'm a writer and in my eighties now, and I
live in the Washington DC area, and I have the
privilege of doing a fair amount on Capitol Hill, and
we're moving towards next year, 2026, the 250th anniversary of
the revolution. And so I think it's gonna be an
extraordinary milestone year for Christians and others to think, where
(03:26):
is America?
And where do we put, where, where do we need
renewal and remedy and put things right?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Wow, that, that right there is enough to unpack on
another topic, no doubt. And you, Doctor Oz Guinness, you're
going to actually get some data to help unpack that,
I imagine, through your writings and findings. So I'm excited
to hear more about that. Uh, if you're listening on radio,
put a pin in that and uh we'll hear more
from Doctor Oz Guinness hopefully sooner or later on that.
(03:53):
Well today as we just sort of wanting to unpack,
there's people, I think young people, there's middle aged people,
there's older people still wondering what is God's will for
my life and both of you have done work on
this topic as you mentioned Doctor Rich with your Renaissance
Project and Doctor Oz with your many writings, um, in
American culture we're gonna stick with that or even Western culture.
(04:15):
It's oftentimes there's an assumption that only young people are
looking for purpose in life. They go through high school
to get to college so they can figure out what
to do with their lives, and yet even after graduating,
people are still wondering what am I going to do
with my life? And it seems like people of all
ages are looking for this sense of purpose. Um, the
Westminster catechism, this is not news to you guys, but
(04:37):
I'm going to just read a snippet, says man's chief
end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
Uh, which basically unders it defines man's chief end is
our goal in life. But the question I have for,
I guess the first question, which is a large one,
why is it that there are so many.
Uh, people still searching for purpose. What, what is the
(05:00):
depth of humanity? What have we found? What have you
guys found that people are looking for in regards to purpose?
And why is it there are so many middle aged
men and or women who maybe lose their jobs and
or just can't find their way? Help us navigate and
understand what is it about knowing our purpose in Christ
and connecting it to vocation eventually. Uh, I hope that
(05:23):
you guys are able to unpack that somewhere.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, back up a bit, I think all human beings
need three things in a very deep way, meaning.
Belonging and purpose, meaning making sense of the world, belonging,
having a security and knowing where your place in the
world is, and purpose, what life is about. Now I
(05:48):
always start by comparing the biblical position with the alternatives,
cos contrast is the mother of clarity, so you look
at the eastern religions, Hinduism and Buddhism, essentially they say,
forget it.
When you take yourself so seriously, and you want fulfillment
for yourself, that's part of the illusion. You've gotta break
(06:11):
through that illusion and through yoga or whatever, become one
with the ground of being and lose yourself, get beyond yourself.
They don't have a high view of purpose, and there
are many like that in Southern California.
And then you have our secularist friends, atheists and others,
and their view of purpose is very different. Do it yourself.
(06:33):
There's no God.
There's no meaning out there for you to discover, so
if you want meaning, do it yourself. You know, I,
I had seminars with Bertrand Russell, and his picture was
of the Greek giant Atlas, who carried the world on
his own shoulders. Now the biblical position is wonderfully different.
(06:56):
God who created us in whose image we are, he
calls us to himself.
And when we come to know him like that, all
that we are, all that we do, all that we have,
finds a direction and a dynamic, because it's done for
the whole of our lives unto him.
(07:17):
And I think that's the most profound view of purpose
the world has ever seen.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I need to say first of all I'm out of
my league. Doctor Oz, that was awesome. Doctor Rich, I
see why you're friends with this guy wow I mean
right there if anybody can put that on repeat, listen
to that again. Doctor Rich, what, well, I mean, I
of course I, I follow Oz on on on so
much of my thinking on calling and.
Um, the verse that you refer to in Romans 12
(07:47):
at the end of verse 2 there, um, is really
in line with this thought of how do we live
our entire lives as Oz says in virtual worshipful response
to the call of God on our lives. And so, um,
I know we'll get into this, but I think what
I find beautiful about this way of thinking about calling
is that there is, as theologians in the past have
(08:08):
talked about a sort of primary calling and a secondary calling,
simply put.
I like to think of it as a calling from God, sorry,
first and foremost a calling to God, and then a
calling from God. So the first call is a call
to discipleship, to love him and to love people. But
then there's a calling that we have a secondary calling
(08:28):
that is ambassadorship. So first discipleship always and then ambassadorship
and we are to represent him in different sectors of society,
different places in the world.
And I know a lot of times when people talk
about what's the will of God for my life, they're
thinking about that secondary calling, but I, I love in
Oz's book, which I have right here that the idea
of the primary calling is primary, that discipleship, our calling
(08:50):
to God, our calling to Christ before our calling from Christ.
Um, is, is where we need to focus. So this
worshipful response, as, you know, as Oz has mentioned and
has described so well, and as Paul refers to in
Romans 12:2, I think that is the appropriate way to
think of calling in both the primary sense and in
the secondary sense. And the book you're referring to, is
(09:12):
it The Call? OK, great segue, because my second question, Dr. Oz,
is for you specifically in regards to that in your book,
The Call.
I'm gonna tell you what you argue and then you
can correct me if I got it wrong.
You basically argue that the deepest human need for purpose
is met by a calling from God or as you said,
(09:33):
Doctor Rich to God, not merely by individual desires, careers,
or self-fulfillment, and then you go on to assert that
people require a purpose that provides an overarching direct direction
and meaning to their lives, um, a goal basically that
encompasses everything that they do.
Uh, and so you do emphasize that people, and I'm
giving a review, have a, uh, specific calling for each
(09:55):
individual life, but discovering that and fulfilling that is part
of the plan that God has. So in, in your book,
The Call, can you, how can our listeners apply your
findings from your book with current cultural realities that we face?
Even I wanna.
Pull back on what you said earlier that you know
the 250th birthday of America that's going to have cultural
(10:16):
and spiritual significance to to this nation and beyond, uh,
but then, but so how does that all impact? How
can people take your findings based upon what you've found
and apply these things in their lives today from young
to old.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well, there's an awful lot you could say in response
to that, but one would be this. One of the
traps down the centuries, and you can see this very
clearly in the Catholic Church, is that the spiritual is
higher than the secular. In other words, calling, and I
was almost taught this when I came to faith many,
(10:54):
many years ago, and John Stott became a great friend
of mine.
And as we shared this, he was taught virtually the
same thing, that if you're all out for Jesus, the
three highest things you can do are be a minister,
an evangelist, or a missionary. In other words, spiritual, and
that's wrong. Calling means everyone, everywhere, in everything. Wow. In
(11:19):
other words, it's do what you are. What are the
gifts God has given you, and I don't just mean
spiritual gifts.
Natural gifts. Now, sometimes the Lord uses people against their gifts,
that's relatively rare. Yeah. Much more often people discovering who
they are, and giving that giftedness, whatever it is, working
(11:39):
with their hands, leadership, something very practical or speaking or
whatever the gift is, and doing it as unto Him
in the whole of life. Now when you see it
this way, you talked about people in their 50s.
You never retire from a calling, you retire from a job, sure,
but you never retire from a calling, and you follow
(12:02):
the call of the caller, right through to the end
of life, and when we die and go to be
with the Lord, then we see the one who called us,
and until that moment we've only heard him.
Heard him through the scriptures, heard him through the spirit,
but one day we'll see him. So calling is not
(12:23):
something you do when you're young or whatever, no, it's a,
a lifetime calling.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
That's good, and I think Doctor Rich, uh, specific to
what Doctor Oz pointed out, um, as I understand it,
you have college students that clamor to your class. Uh,
and when I was at Vanguard, I always heard them, oh,
I'm gonna take Doctor Rich's class on calling and, and,
and vocation. Uh, I only paid some of them to, yeah, you, well,
apparently they need more because they have to pay for
(12:49):
their college bills, but.
Um, so you've given multiple academically informed and theologically sound
messages in chapels before hundreds of students and, and, uh,
your fellow, your peers, um.
Uh, given what Doctor Oz just said with regard to
this greater calling that is lifelong, what are some practical ways, um, uh, that,
(13:11):
that plays out that you've observed in students' lives, anecdotal
and or some, some patterns that you've seen in, in
regard to holding on to that, that one or maybe
two things that God has called you to.
And how it plays out in practical real time. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um,
so what I said about, you know, your deepest giftings, I, I,
(13:34):
I love this thought, um, that God, I think William
Placard in his book Callings, um, says that we serve
a wise and good God, um, because the fact that
we
have work to do and that we enjoy doing it.
He's wise because he sort of maps those together, kind
of Frederick Buchner talked about this, but he's good because
(13:54):
he allows us the pleasure to do it. And so, um, um,
so I talk a little bit about GPS kind of
finding your way in the kingdom, and I talk about
giftings as being crucial to understanding maybe your secondary calling,
what you're called to, um.
And then I, and then I add into that this
idea of passions, and I, and I don't mean passion
in the kind of the sense we often talk about here,
(14:16):
but it really is in the Greek term, you know,
that for what you're willing to suffer. So, um, I
once had a student ask me, you know, Park, I think,
I think I know what I'm called to, um, but I,
which is medical missions, she said, but I have zero
passion for Monday night labs. And I, and I said
to her, well, hold on a minute, let's think about this. Um,
would you rather do Monday night labs? I get it.
(14:37):
It's a lot of work and you got med school
after this.
Um, or would you rather go to the library and
read Shakespeare? And she said, well, I don't even know
how to spell Shakespeare. And so the simple thought is
she's got this calling and a caller, and she's willing
to suffer for what she is called. And so I
take gifts and passions and as I, I take this
(14:58):
from Oz too, but you know, uh, King David, you know,
essentially on his epitaph and
In Acts 13:36, um, essentially the best thing they could
say of King David was that he served the purposes
of God in his generation. This is really wholesale me
just to kind of channeling Oz here at this point,
but there's a sense in which if you take your
gifts and your passions, what you're born with and what
(15:19):
you're born for, if you will, and you line them
up with the purposes of God in our generation.
Then you'll have a way to navigate what you're meant
to be doing with your life. Um, and so again,
God is up to some things in our generation that
he wasn't doing a generation ago because he's fulfilled them
through other people's gifts and passions and, and, and, but
(15:40):
there are something particular to our generation and so, um,
I don't want to think of this as some have
put it, um, you know, the sweet spot of your
life or what have you.
Because, first of all, because passion involves suffering, but secondly,
we're not serving our own purposes, but, but we're truly
serving the purposes of God. And so if you look
closely at your passions, what you enjoy doing with suffering,
(16:03):
what your giftings, what maybe others enjoy you doing, and
I think that's often a great tell as to what
your gift is, others enjoy you doing it.
Um, and you place those in service of God's God. Now,
I think that's, that, that's how I like to think
of it. I don't think it's a simple and cookie
cutter and a formula like that that probably gets you
maybe 75% of the way there, you know, you can
kind of eliminate things that don't line up with your
(16:25):
gifts and passions, um, as Oz says, I think God
does sometimes use us against our gifts earn against our passions,
but generally speaking, I think we serve a good and
wise God who set it up such that we can
have pleasure as we serve Him.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I'm glad um Rich added that about passions and service
and sacrifice, because I've heard teaching around this area where
find your gifts and your calling and find your sweet spot,
and it becomes a form of self-fulfillment and selfishness, and
that's terrible. Yeah. You know, the first person called openly
(17:00):
in scripture is Abraham. Yeah. And the first word to
Abraham is negative. Leave.
He had to leave his country, his culture, his kin.
And follow the Lord.
And there's always a break, so to follow Jesus is countercultural.
We take up our crosses and we have to pay
(17:23):
the price of everything that contradicts his lordship, and that's
increasingly painful. And the church needs to rediscover that countercultural stance.
There's far too much soft worldliness in the American church
and calling is tough
Speaker 1 (17:40):
again.
That that's the it's what the the the young people
would would call that's that's fire right there that's fire.
That's good stuff right there. I hope people are picking
up on this. So there's a common theme.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And one more thing. Yes, please. There's a danger in
confusing calling with guidance.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
OK, that helps me
Speaker 2 (18:03):
does guide us specifically, but calling adds something else. Calling
is partly entrepreneurial, because the fact the Lord guides us
through His word or scriptural teaching.
And through his spirit, a voice can check us, go
here or don't go there or whatever it is, we
are guided, but we're not guided at every step. And
(18:27):
we're responsible, creative human beings and we follow his calling.
That's entrepreneurial. And so we want to bring into the
world visions that haven't been fulfilled yet. So we mustn't
just think of it, I can't move unless I know
God said yes, go there, no, no, no.
We're always open to the Lord's guidance, of course, yes,
(18:51):
but we've got to be entrepreneurial too. That's
Speaker 1 (18:53):
faith. Uh, OK, you just, I'm glad you said that
word faith because I can say there's a common theme
between Abraham and Jesus and taking up your cross daily
and denying yourself Luke 9:27 and following Jesus, and that's
faith because wait, why would I want to deny the
riches of the world to get nothing.
Immediately, no immediate gratification, and it requires faith that God
(19:15):
will meet you along the way somewhere, uh, and the
other question I had in the midst of that and
both of you please feel free to chime in on
this is the practical steps like you said, the guidance
how do we today, how does a person put out
a fleece as Gideon did or when you say, God,
what do I do next and you're looking for that
(19:36):
next step and he either does reveal or he doesn't.
How do we mix faith and what I would call
confirmation of the calling together? What, how do those two
intermix together as you're walking?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Well, of course, scripture is primary,
Speaker 1 (19:53):
sure,
Speaker 2 (19:54):
trusting the Lord through his spirit to lead us in
terms of what he's revealed already in scripture.
But if we're still in doubt, I think we have
our friends, our our our faithful friends and put things
before them. What do you think of this? And sometimes
they'll say, yeah, that's obvious, that's right, and some, what,
you think that's the way to go? No. You know,
(20:16):
so you as our friends too, but at times we've
just got to go before the Lord.
And there's a risk of faith, and one of the
most precious things for me, is the notion that actually
more people have picked up from my book than any other,
and that's the notion we live before one audience, the
audience of one. Yeah.
(20:38):
Now the fact is we all have audiences, beginning with
our families and our friends and our colleagues, and then
our peers, and you think of, say, the social media today, Twitter, X,
Truth Social, they are cauldrons.
Of people's opinions around us.
But they are all secondary, and at the end of
(21:01):
the day, we have one audience that really counts, the
audience of one, and the trouble is too many Christians
are bowing to other audiences, the wrong ones. You know,
David Reisman, the great social scientist, a long time ago,
he said the Puritans, and they had a high view
of calling, they were as if they'd swallowed gyroscopes. Their north, south,
(21:24):
east and west was internal.
Because of calling,
Speaker 1 (21:28):
whereas
Speaker 2 (21:28):
modern Christians are if they swallowed Gallop poles.
In other words, 51% are now doing this, 80% are following, no, no,
so we fall Gallup polls. I got that's a recipe
for compromise and worldliness. We have one audience, the audience
of one, and sometimes there's a cost, and it takes
(21:50):
courage to live like that. Martin Luther, here I stand,
so help me God, I can do no other.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Wow.
Wow, I, I can I, Dr. Rich Holden, I want
to point out for younger people in our audience, so
you're saying Instagram, X, Snapchat, TikTok, that's secondary, maybe even
tertiary to the primary calling of God. Guys, you just
heard it from a world renowned social scientist. So take
(22:22):
it from here, everybody follow God
Speaker 2 (22:24):
first. It doesn't matter whether I'm a social scientist or whatever, but.
A Christian brother, that's, yes sir,
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I think authority
Speaker 2 (22:31):
biblical teaching that's by Christian faithfulness down the centuries.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, forgive me, I may have just appealed to the
Gallup poll more than I did to the Bible. So
Doctor Rich, well, no, just speaking of Christian faithfulness, I
just wanna, I just wanna, um, uh, give due respect
here in a sense where I know one thing we
talked about or we want to talk about is just, um,
this idea of again, going back to primary calling being
called to Christ.
(22:58):
And then our secondary client comes secondarily. Um, I think
the reason, part of the reason, if I could say
that Oz is able to share these sorts of ideas
with us here is because I, I have seen a
man who's lived this where he does keep primary calling primary.
And um just to say Oz, I don't know if
I'm sure you might remember, but we had this retreat
on the Cotswold, in the middle of England, about a
(23:19):
dozen friends, and we invited Oz to.
You know, kind of a mini laree for all of
3 days, but you know, we were, we were there together.
And I often remember, I never said this to you, Oz,
but I remember Oz would often talk about how before anything,
before we do anything for the Lord, we're always before
the Lord. And so 30 minutes in the word and
30 minutes in prayer, he, he seeks to do wherever
(23:40):
he goes, wherever his travels take him and so forth.
And I remember that weekend, well, um, not that I
was particularly watching, but I had observed that.
Before breakfast where everyone else is already in the kitchen
and having their, their meal, 2 nights, 3 days, he, he,
he was, he was upstairs, he was in his room
and he was with the Lord and, um, and so
(24:00):
I think because of that, uh, characters formed in such
a way that these insights are not just insights, they're
lived realities.
And I think, um, I think that's just worth pointing
out that primary calling has always to come first. Otherwise,
we do follow Gallup polls, we just do what's popular,
we just get confused by, you know, our multiple audiences
(24:21):
as opposed to the audience of one. And so I
think Oz fully lives this and that's why he's able
to speak so powerfully about it. Um, he's always kept
primary calling first. Here, here's another quick little story if
I don't, if you don't mind, but Oz and I
were out.
Um, at a pub in England, as you do, right? Um, and, uh,
and I don't know if you remember this, Oz, but, um,
this is a cold winter in the middle of Oxford
(24:42):
and you know, the, the gentleman who brought us our drinks,
he managed to spill an entire pint, you know, on,
onto Oz and, and had that happen to me. Well,
I remember it very clearly, I mean,
You know, Jesus flipped tables, and I would have just
used that as an excuse to flip tables myself if it,
if it happened to me. But Oz so graciously said, said,
(25:03):
no worries. You know, this is a nervous young man,
you know, carry, and I just thought this, this is
instinctual for him and because it's because it's born out
of a character that's been lived over a lifetime. And
so one thing I try to instill in my students
is that, um, the calling is important. Secondary calling is important.
We want to be ambassadors for Christ wherever we go,
whatever field to which we're called.
(25:25):
But, um, but gosh, we got to keep primary calling
primary and character always precedes calling. And so um I
think as we read this book, you'll you'll see that
out of the I said some 3031 chapters, um, most
all of it is about primary calling and secondary calling
will just naturally flow out of that.
(25:46):
Doctor Oz, we only have a few minutes left for our,
our audience, but.
Uh, with the context of what Doctor Rich shared about
your character, what final word would you leave with our
listeners just to encourage them on how to pursue? I mean,
taking what Rich mentioned, but how to pursue that is
that primary secondary calling.
(26:07):
Final word, even a prophetic word, do you want to
leave with our audience to say this is thus saith
the Lord and Doctor Oz? No, but seriously, what, what
final word? No, I know, I know, I don't want
to conflate those two first, no, I love that he
checked me on that. But yeah, what final word do
you want to leave with our listeners?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Well, I would say you can read Rich's book or
my book, and there's an awful lot in terms of
how you discover the sense of calling and how you
live it, but I would just broaden it.
We're an extraordinary generation, for America, for the West, for
the world.
If you think the global menace is authoritarianism,
(26:48):
The only counter are those who know the freedom of
the scriptures.
And if we who follow Jesus link hands with all
the global church all around the world, that is the
only possible counter to the coming totalitarianism that's in the wings.
But calling.
(27:09):
I think it's the single truth that's second only to
the cross in putting its stamp on history.
And the trouble with American Christians isn't that they aren't
where they should be, it's that they're not what they
should be where they are. Wow. And if there was
a general recovery of calling, everyone, everywhere, in everything, engaging, penetrating,
(27:33):
being salt and light, America and the West would be
turned around in 10 years. Wow.
And so this is one of these truths which if
recovered properly, makes an incredible personal difference, and that's the
first thing that's important, but a cultural and national difference too,
and that's what you see in the Reformation, and that's
(27:54):
what we need today.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Wow.
Doctor Richard Park, Doctor Oz Guinness, there's not enough time
to unpack the wealth of wisdom and knowledge you both have.
Thank you for joining us on Kingdom and Culture, and
I hope we can have both of you back again
sometime because we got to talk about the 250th birthday
of America. So God bless you guys and listeners join
(28:18):
us next time on Kingdom and Culture. Thank you so
much for joining us.
Maybe some of you have asked what is God's will
for my life? What is my purpose? What do I
want to do when I grow up? I'm almost 50
years old. I just blasted out on the Internet, and
I still want to know what I'm gonna do when
I grow up because I'm planning on living to be
100 as long as I can think straight and walk straight,
so there's that.
But these are deep questions on identity and purpose, and
(00:37):
they seem to be as applicable today for people as
they were, I think way back when, where you got
people like Joseph in the Bible who was sold into
slavery by his brothers and then was put into jail
for a crime he didn't commit. I think most of
us who know our Bible know this story and if
you don't read up Genesis late parts of Genesis, it's
(00:58):
amazing and yet God was with him. God gave him
a sense of purpose even in the midst of struggle.
And what I want to unpack today is if we
can get to the place where we.
Experience God's.
Sense of, well, our sense of purpose in Christ, that's
what we wanna do. I'm gonna give you one scripture verse,
Romans 12:12 says, therefore I urge you brothers and sisters,
(01:21):
in view of God's mercy to offer your bodies as
living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. This is your
spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to
the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the
renewing of your mind. And here's the payoff pitch for
our purpose today.
And then you will be able to test and approve
what God's will is, His good, pleasing, and perfect will, will.
(01:45):
So today our guests, we have, uh, Oz Guinness, Doctor
Oz Guinness, who has worked at Oxford and I believe
is still connected with Oxford University and.
Is uh a a uh help me out Doctor Rich. Well,
the social sciences is his background and he's a theologian
(02:05):
as we talked about anybody who talks about God as
a theologian in many respects. We also have Doctor Richard
Park who is a professor of theology and at a
local university, and both of these awesome men of God
are going to help us unpack what God's will is
for our lives. So no pressure, gentlemen.
We want God's will and you're going to tell us
God's will today, so I say that a little facetiously,
(02:28):
but I just want to start off with both of
you guys, uh, Doctor Oz, Doctor Rich Park, if you
guys could give us just a little context and what
you're doing right now, where you live, and just a
little interest so our listeners on radio and on podcast
can know who you guys are.
After you, Rich. Oh, well, all right, um, so yeah, Mike,
I mean, as you know, I, I teach over at
Vanguard University in the theology department. I'm, um, honored to
(02:51):
lead their honors program there as well, and I also
help run a nonprofit organization, the Renaissance Group, but we're
actually a lot of our work is to help folks
figure out their calling in life.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I'm a writer and in my eighties now, and I
live in the Washington DC area, and I have the
privilege of doing a fair amount on Capitol Hill, and
we're moving towards next year, 2026, the 250th anniversary of
the revolution. And so I think it's gonna be an
extraordinary milestone year for Christians and others to think, where
(03:26):
is America?
And where do we put, where, where do we need
renewal and remedy and put things right?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Wow, that, that right there is enough to unpack on
another topic, no doubt. And you, Doctor Oz Guinness, you're
going to actually get some data to help unpack that,
I imagine, through your writings and findings. So I'm excited
to hear more about that. Uh, if you're listening on radio,
put a pin in that and uh we'll hear more
from Doctor Oz Guinness hopefully sooner or later on that.
(03:53):
Well today as we just sort of wanting to unpack,
there's people, I think young people, there's middle aged people,
there's older people still wondering what is God's will for
my life and both of you have done work on
this topic as you mentioned Doctor Rich with your Renaissance
Project and Doctor Oz with your many writings, um, in
American culture we're gonna stick with that or even Western culture.
(04:15):
It's oftentimes there's an assumption that only young people are
looking for purpose in life. They go through high school
to get to college so they can figure out what
to do with their lives, and yet even after graduating,
people are still wondering what am I going to do
with my life? And it seems like people of all
ages are looking for this sense of purpose. Um, the
Westminster catechism, this is not news to you guys, but
(04:37):
I'm going to just read a snippet, says man's chief
end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
Uh, which basically unders it defines man's chief end is
our goal in life. But the question I have for,
I guess the first question, which is a large one,
why is it that there are so many.
Uh, people still searching for purpose. What, what is the
(05:00):
depth of humanity? What have we found? What have you
guys found that people are looking for in regards to purpose?
And why is it there are so many middle aged
men and or women who maybe lose their jobs and
or just can't find their way? Help us navigate and
understand what is it about knowing our purpose in Christ
and connecting it to vocation eventually. Uh, I hope that
(05:23):
you guys are able to unpack that somewhere.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, back up a bit, I think all human beings
need three things in a very deep way, meaning.
Belonging and purpose, meaning making sense of the world, belonging,
having a security and knowing where your place in the
world is, and purpose, what life is about. Now I
(05:48):
always start by comparing the biblical position with the alternatives,
cos contrast is the mother of clarity, so you look
at the eastern religions, Hinduism and Buddhism, essentially they say,
forget it.
When you take yourself so seriously, and you want fulfillment
for yourself, that's part of the illusion. You've gotta break
(06:11):
through that illusion and through yoga or whatever, become one
with the ground of being and lose yourself, get beyond yourself.
They don't have a high view of purpose, and there
are many like that in Southern California.
And then you have our secularist friends, atheists and others,
and their view of purpose is very different. Do it yourself.
(06:33):
There's no God.
There's no meaning out there for you to discover, so
if you want meaning, do it yourself. You know, I,
I had seminars with Bertrand Russell, and his picture was
of the Greek giant Atlas, who carried the world on
his own shoulders. Now the biblical position is wonderfully different.
(06:56):
God who created us in whose image we are, he
calls us to himself.
And when we come to know him like that, all
that we are, all that we do, all that we have,
finds a direction and a dynamic, because it's done for
the whole of our lives unto him.
(07:17):
And I think that's the most profound view of purpose
the world has ever seen.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I need to say first of all I'm out of
my league. Doctor Oz, that was awesome. Doctor Rich, I
see why you're friends with this guy wow I mean
right there if anybody can put that on repeat, listen
to that again. Doctor Rich, what, well, I mean, I
of course I, I follow Oz on on on so
much of my thinking on calling and.
Um, the verse that you refer to in Romans 12
(07:47):
at the end of verse 2 there, um, is really
in line with this thought of how do we live
our entire lives as Oz says in virtual worshipful response
to the call of God on our lives. And so, um,
I know we'll get into this, but I think what
I find beautiful about this way of thinking about calling
is that there is, as theologians in the past have
(08:08):
talked about a sort of primary calling and a secondary calling,
simply put.
I like to think of it as a calling from God, sorry,
first and foremost a calling to God, and then a
calling from God. So the first call is a call
to discipleship, to love him and to love people. But
then there's a calling that we have a secondary calling
(08:28):
that is ambassadorship. So first discipleship always and then ambassadorship
and we are to represent him in different sectors of society,
different places in the world.
And I know a lot of times when people talk
about what's the will of God for my life, they're
thinking about that secondary calling, but I, I love in
Oz's book, which I have right here that the idea
of the primary calling is primary, that discipleship, our calling
(08:50):
to God, our calling to Christ before our calling from Christ.
Um, is, is where we need to focus. So this
worshipful response, as, you know, as Oz has mentioned and
has described so well, and as Paul refers to in
Romans 12:2, I think that is the appropriate way to
think of calling in both the primary sense and in
the secondary sense. And the book you're referring to, is
(09:12):
it The Call? OK, great segue, because my second question, Dr. Oz,
is for you specifically in regards to that in your book,
The Call.
I'm gonna tell you what you argue and then you
can correct me if I got it wrong.
You basically argue that the deepest human need for purpose
is met by a calling from God or as you said,
(09:33):
Doctor Rich to God, not merely by individual desires, careers,
or self-fulfillment, and then you go on to assert that
people require a purpose that provides an overarching direct direction
and meaning to their lives, um, a goal basically that
encompasses everything that they do.
Uh, and so you do emphasize that people, and I'm
giving a review, have a, uh, specific calling for each
(09:55):
individual life, but discovering that and fulfilling that is part
of the plan that God has. So in, in your book,
The Call, can you, how can our listeners apply your
findings from your book with current cultural realities that we face?
Even I wanna.
Pull back on what you said earlier that you know
the 250th birthday of America that's going to have cultural
(10:16):
and spiritual significance to to this nation and beyond, uh,
but then, but so how does that all impact? How
can people take your findings based upon what you've found
and apply these things in their lives today from young
to old.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well, there's an awful lot you could say in response
to that, but one would be this. One of the
traps down the centuries, and you can see this very
clearly in the Catholic Church, is that the spiritual is
higher than the secular. In other words, calling, and I
was almost taught this when I came to faith many,
(10:54):
many years ago, and John Stott became a great friend
of mine.
And as we shared this, he was taught virtually the
same thing, that if you're all out for Jesus, the
three highest things you can do are be a minister,
an evangelist, or a missionary. In other words, spiritual, and
that's wrong. Calling means everyone, everywhere, in everything. Wow. In
(11:19):
other words, it's do what you are. What are the
gifts God has given you, and I don't just mean
spiritual gifts.
Natural gifts. Now, sometimes the Lord uses people against their gifts,
that's relatively rare. Yeah. Much more often people discovering who
they are, and giving that giftedness, whatever it is, working
(11:39):
with their hands, leadership, something very practical or speaking or
whatever the gift is, and doing it as unto Him
in the whole of life. Now when you see it
this way, you talked about people in their 50s.
You never retire from a calling, you retire from a job, sure,
but you never retire from a calling, and you follow
(12:02):
the call of the caller, right through to the end
of life, and when we die and go to be
with the Lord, then we see the one who called us,
and until that moment we've only heard him.
Heard him through the scriptures, heard him through the spirit,
but one day we'll see him. So calling is not
(12:23):
something you do when you're young or whatever, no, it's a,
a lifetime calling.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
That's good, and I think Doctor Rich, uh, specific to
what Doctor Oz pointed out, um, as I understand it,
you have college students that clamor to your class. Uh,
and when I was at Vanguard, I always heard them, oh,
I'm gonna take Doctor Rich's class on calling and, and,
and vocation. Uh, I only paid some of them to, yeah, you, well,
apparently they need more because they have to pay for
(12:49):
their college bills, but.
Um, so you've given multiple academically informed and theologically sound
messages in chapels before hundreds of students and, and, uh,
your fellow, your peers, um.
Uh, given what Doctor Oz just said with regard to
this greater calling that is lifelong, what are some practical ways, um, uh, that,
(13:11):
that plays out that you've observed in students' lives, anecdotal
and or some, some patterns that you've seen in, in
regard to holding on to that, that one or maybe
two things that God has called you to.
And how it plays out in practical real time. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um,
so what I said about, you know, your deepest giftings, I, I,
(13:34):
I love this thought, um, that God, I think William
Placard in his book Callings, um, says that we serve
a wise and good God, um, because the fact that
we
have work to do and that we enjoy doing it.
He's wise because he sort of maps those together, kind
of Frederick Buchner talked about this, but he's good because
(13:54):
he allows us the pleasure to do it. And so, um, um,
so I talk a little bit about GPS kind of
finding your way in the kingdom, and I talk about
giftings as being crucial to understanding maybe your secondary calling,
what you're called to, um.
And then I, and then I add into that this
idea of passions, and I, and I don't mean passion
in the kind of the sense we often talk about here,
(14:16):
but it really is in the Greek term, you know,
that for what you're willing to suffer. So, um, I
once had a student ask me, you know, Park, I think,
I think I know what I'm called to, um, but I,
which is medical missions, she said, but I have zero
passion for Monday night labs. And I, and I said
to her, well, hold on a minute, let's think about this. Um,
would you rather do Monday night labs? I get it.
(14:37):
It's a lot of work and you got med school
after this.
Um, or would you rather go to the library and
read Shakespeare? And she said, well, I don't even know
how to spell Shakespeare. And so the simple thought is
she's got this calling and a caller, and she's willing
to suffer for what she is called. And so I
take gifts and passions and as I, I take this
(14:58):
from Oz too, but you know, uh, King David, you know,
essentially on his epitaph and
In Acts 13:36, um, essentially the best thing they could
say of King David was that he served the purposes
of God in his generation. This is really wholesale me
just to kind of channeling Oz here at this point,
but there's a sense in which if you take your
gifts and your passions, what you're born with and what
(15:19):
you're born for, if you will, and you line them
up with the purposes of God in our generation.
Then you'll have a way to navigate what you're meant
to be doing with your life. Um, and so again,
God is up to some things in our generation that
he wasn't doing a generation ago because he's fulfilled them
through other people's gifts and passions and, and, and, but
(15:40):
there are something particular to our generation and so, um,
I don't want to think of this as some have
put it, um, you know, the sweet spot of your
life or what have you.
Because, first of all, because passion involves suffering, but secondly,
we're not serving our own purposes, but, but we're truly
serving the purposes of God. And so if you look
closely at your passions, what you enjoy doing with suffering,
(16:03):
what your giftings, what maybe others enjoy you doing, and
I think that's often a great tell as to what
your gift is, others enjoy you doing it.
Um, and you place those in service of God's God. Now,
I think that's, that, that's how I like to think
of it. I don't think it's a simple and cookie
cutter and a formula like that that probably gets you
maybe 75% of the way there, you know, you can
kind of eliminate things that don't line up with your
(16:25):
gifts and passions, um, as Oz says, I think God
does sometimes use us against our gifts earn against our passions,
but generally speaking, I think we serve a good and
wise God who set it up such that we can
have pleasure as we serve Him.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I'm glad um Rich added that about passions and service
and sacrifice, because I've heard teaching around this area where
find your gifts and your calling and find your sweet spot,
and it becomes a form of self-fulfillment and selfishness, and
that's terrible. Yeah. You know, the first person called openly
(17:00):
in scripture is Abraham. Yeah. And the first word to
Abraham is negative. Leave.
He had to leave his country, his culture, his kin.
And follow the Lord.
And there's always a break, so to follow Jesus is countercultural.
We take up our crosses and we have to pay
(17:23):
the price of everything that contradicts his lordship, and that's
increasingly painful. And the church needs to rediscover that countercultural stance.
There's far too much soft worldliness in the American church
and calling is tough
Speaker 1 (17:40):
again.
That that's the it's what the the the young people
would would call that's that's fire right there that's fire.
That's good stuff right there. I hope people are picking
up on this. So there's a common theme.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And one more thing. Yes, please. There's a danger in
confusing calling with guidance.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
OK, that helps me
Speaker 2 (18:03):
does guide us specifically, but calling adds something else. Calling
is partly entrepreneurial, because the fact the Lord guides us
through His word or scriptural teaching.
And through his spirit, a voice can check us, go
here or don't go there or whatever it is, we
are guided, but we're not guided at every step. And
(18:27):
we're responsible, creative human beings and we follow his calling.
That's entrepreneurial. And so we want to bring into the
world visions that haven't been fulfilled yet. So we mustn't
just think of it, I can't move unless I know
God said yes, go there, no, no, no.
We're always open to the Lord's guidance, of course, yes,
(18:51):
but we've got to be entrepreneurial too. That's
Speaker 1 (18:53):
faith. Uh, OK, you just, I'm glad you said that
word faith because I can say there's a common theme
between Abraham and Jesus and taking up your cross daily
and denying yourself Luke 9:27 and following Jesus, and that's
faith because wait, why would I want to deny the
riches of the world to get nothing.
Immediately, no immediate gratification, and it requires faith that God
(19:15):
will meet you along the way somewhere, uh, and the
other question I had in the midst of that and
both of you please feel free to chime in on
this is the practical steps like you said, the guidance
how do we today, how does a person put out
a fleece as Gideon did or when you say, God,
what do I do next and you're looking for that
(19:36):
next step and he either does reveal or he doesn't.
How do we mix faith and what I would call
confirmation of the calling together? What, how do those two
intermix together as you're walking?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Well, of course, scripture is primary,
Speaker 1 (19:53):
sure,
Speaker 2 (19:54):
trusting the Lord through his spirit to lead us in
terms of what he's revealed already in scripture.
But if we're still in doubt, I think we have
our friends, our our our faithful friends and put things
before them. What do you think of this? And sometimes
they'll say, yeah, that's obvious, that's right, and some, what,
you think that's the way to go? No. You know,
(20:16):
so you as our friends too, but at times we've
just got to go before the Lord.
And there's a risk of faith, and one of the
most precious things for me, is the notion that actually
more people have picked up from my book than any other,
and that's the notion we live before one audience, the
audience of one. Yeah.
(20:38):
Now the fact is we all have audiences, beginning with
our families and our friends and our colleagues, and then
our peers, and you think of, say, the social media today, Twitter, X,
Truth Social, they are cauldrons.
Of people's opinions around us.
But they are all secondary, and at the end of
(21:01):
the day, we have one audience that really counts, the
audience of one, and the trouble is too many Christians
are bowing to other audiences, the wrong ones. You know,
David Reisman, the great social scientist, a long time ago,
he said the Puritans, and they had a high view
of calling, they were as if they'd swallowed gyroscopes. Their north, south,
(21:24):
east and west was internal.
Because of calling,
Speaker 1 (21:28):
whereas
Speaker 2 (21:28):
modern Christians are if they swallowed Gallop poles.
In other words, 51% are now doing this, 80% are following, no, no,
so we fall Gallup polls. I got that's a recipe
for compromise and worldliness. We have one audience, the audience
of one, and sometimes there's a cost, and it takes
(21:50):
courage to live like that. Martin Luther, here I stand,
so help me God, I can do no other.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Wow.
Wow, I, I can I, Dr. Rich Holden, I want
to point out for younger people in our audience, so
you're saying Instagram, X, Snapchat, TikTok, that's secondary, maybe even
tertiary to the primary calling of God. Guys, you just
heard it from a world renowned social scientist. So take
(22:22):
it from here, everybody follow God
Speaker 2 (22:24):
first. It doesn't matter whether I'm a social scientist or whatever, but.
A Christian brother, that's, yes sir,
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I think authority
Speaker 2 (22:31):
biblical teaching that's by Christian faithfulness down the centuries.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, forgive me, I may have just appealed to the
Gallup poll more than I did to the Bible. So
Doctor Rich, well, no, just speaking of Christian faithfulness, I
just wanna, I just wanna, um, uh, give due respect
here in a sense where I know one thing we
talked about or we want to talk about is just, um,
this idea of again, going back to primary calling being
called to Christ.
(22:58):
And then our secondary client comes secondarily. Um, I think
the reason, part of the reason, if I could say
that Oz is able to share these sorts of ideas
with us here is because I, I have seen a
man who's lived this where he does keep primary calling primary.
And um just to say Oz, I don't know if
I'm sure you might remember, but we had this retreat
on the Cotswold, in the middle of England, about a
(23:19):
dozen friends, and we invited Oz to.
You know, kind of a mini laree for all of
3 days, but you know, we were, we were there together.
And I often remember, I never said this to you, Oz,
but I remember Oz would often talk about how before anything,
before we do anything for the Lord, we're always before
the Lord. And so 30 minutes in the word and
30 minutes in prayer, he, he seeks to do wherever
(23:40):
he goes, wherever his travels take him and so forth.
And I remember that weekend, well, um, not that I
was particularly watching, but I had observed that.
Before breakfast where everyone else is already in the kitchen
and having their, their meal, 2 nights, 3 days, he, he,
he was, he was upstairs, he was in his room
and he was with the Lord and, um, and so
(24:00):
I think because of that, uh, characters formed in such
a way that these insights are not just insights, they're
lived realities.
And I think, um, I think that's just worth pointing
out that primary calling has always to come first. Otherwise,
we do follow Gallup polls, we just do what's popular,
we just get confused by, you know, our multiple audiences
(24:21):
as opposed to the audience of one. And so I
think Oz fully lives this and that's why he's able
to speak so powerfully about it. Um, he's always kept
primary calling first. Here, here's another quick little story if
I don't, if you don't mind, but Oz and I
were out.
Um, at a pub in England, as you do, right? Um, and, uh,
and I don't know if you remember this, Oz, but, um,
this is a cold winter in the middle of Oxford
(24:42):
and you know, the, the gentleman who brought us our drinks,
he managed to spill an entire pint, you know, on,
onto Oz and, and had that happen to me. Well,
I remember it very clearly, I mean,
You know, Jesus flipped tables, and I would have just
used that as an excuse to flip tables myself if it,
if it happened to me. But Oz so graciously said, said,
(25:03):
no worries. You know, this is a nervous young man,
you know, carry, and I just thought this, this is
instinctual for him and because it's because it's born out
of a character that's been lived over a lifetime. And
so one thing I try to instill in my students
is that, um, the calling is important. Secondary calling is important.
We want to be ambassadors for Christ wherever we go,
whatever field to which we're called.
(25:25):
But, um, but gosh, we got to keep primary calling
primary and character always precedes calling. And so um I
think as we read this book, you'll you'll see that
out of the I said some 3031 chapters, um, most
all of it is about primary calling and secondary calling
will just naturally flow out of that.
(25:46):
Doctor Oz, we only have a few minutes left for our,
our audience, but.
Uh, with the context of what Doctor Rich shared about
your character, what final word would you leave with our
listeners just to encourage them on how to pursue? I mean,
taking what Rich mentioned, but how to pursue that is
that primary secondary calling.
(26:07):
Final word, even a prophetic word, do you want to
leave with our audience to say this is thus saith
the Lord and Doctor Oz? No, but seriously, what, what
final word? No, I know, I know, I don't want
to conflate those two first, no, I love that he
checked me on that. But yeah, what final word do
you want to leave with our listeners?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Well, I would say you can read Rich's book or
my book, and there's an awful lot in terms of
how you discover the sense of calling and how you
live it, but I would just broaden it.
We're an extraordinary generation, for America, for the West, for
the world.
If you think the global menace is authoritarianism,
(26:48):
The only counter are those who know the freedom of
the scriptures.
And if we who follow Jesus link hands with all
the global church all around the world, that is the
only possible counter to the coming totalitarianism that's in the wings.
But calling.
(27:09):
I think it's the single truth that's second only to
the cross in putting its stamp on history.
And the trouble with American Christians isn't that they aren't
where they should be, it's that they're not what they
should be where they are. Wow. And if there was
a general recovery of calling, everyone, everywhere, in everything, engaging, penetrating,
(27:33):
being salt and light, America and the West would be
turned around in 10 years. Wow.
And so this is one of these truths which if
recovered properly, makes an incredible personal difference, and that's the
first thing that's important, but a cultural and national difference too,
and that's what you see in the Reformation, and that's
(27:54):
what we need today.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Wow.
Doctor Richard Park, Doctor Oz Guinness, there's not enough time
to unpack the wealth of wisdom and knowledge you both have.
Thank you for joining us on Kingdom and Culture, and
I hope we can have both of you back again
sometime because we got to talk about the 250th birthday
of America. So God bless you guys and listeners join
(28:18):
us next time on Kingdom and Culture. Thank you so
much for joining us.
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.