November 4, 2025 • 26 mins
“It’s a bird! It’s a plane! No! It’s SUPERMAN! It seems like everybody today is searching for a hero and to be “saved” from our otherwise difficult situations in life. In this episode of K&C, returning guest and “all things superhero, sci-fi & fantasy specialist,” Aaron Welty, unpacks the most recent Superman movie, Directed by James Gunn, and compare and contrasts it with previous Superman movies in light of Judeo-Christian faith themes. We also dig into the almost century long affinity Americans have had for this iconic character.
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Perhaps you've heard the phrase, it's a bird, it's a plane,
it's Superman or truth, justice and the American way. I
know that's the old school way of saying it, but
my friends, both of these phrases are an iconic American
cultural reality. Superman, AKA Clark Kent. Welcome to Kingdom and Culture.
(00:40):
Where the truth and grace of the kingdom of God
courageously intersect the complexity or in this case the superheroes
of culture.
Today on Kingdom and Culture, we have actually a returning guest,
Aaron Welty.
And for those who don't know his credentials, all you
need to know today is he is an authority on
(01:01):
all things superhero, geekdom, nerding out, anything and everything under
the sun as far as it pertains to sci-fi, superheroes,
and even fantasy. This guy knows his stuff. What's more,
is he is able to correlate it to biblical truth
and living. And so that's why we have Aaron on today.
(01:21):
And so, in light of all that, we're gonna just
jump right in and we're gonna talk about Superman.
So Aaron, welcome back. Good to have you.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Great to be here, man. It's good to see
you.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
You too. Uh, Superman, as I mentioned, has long been
an American icon of sorts since his creation in the
1930s and in the very first official comic book, as
it has been known, with Action Comics number one.
And I'm sure for Halloween in 2025, we're going to
see and or will have seen a plethora of little
(01:55):
Supermen flying around the United States. So, Aaron, why do
you think Superman has had such a long and enduring
influence over Americans, both young and old? Why, why, why
has this character lasted almost 100 years since his inception?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Mike, I can give it to you in a single
statement that I'll unpack, and that, and that statement is
Superman is a symbol of hope. Superman is a symbol
of hope. He's a symbol of goodness, of truth, and
of justice wrapped in superpowers. There you go. Superman is
(02:40):
like Captain America, the best.
The best a man can be.
Wow, this is, this is why Lex Luthor hates him
so much, because he is the best of us.
Even though he comes to us from some place other
than our own, he's the best of us.
(03:04):
Superman is the, he's the hero that calls us upward.
He's someone to believe in and aspire to as he
shows us.
What we can look like at our best, Superman is
the symbol that fulfills our longing. He fulfills our longing
(03:25):
for safety, for sanctuary.
And for savior.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Oh, you just did alliteration there. You, you put three
S's on there. I did going with Superman.
And
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Superman, Superman's the symbol of what we know to be
deeply true and just. And to borrow a phrase from
William Wilberforce, the English abolitionist, Superman makes goodness fashionable.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, that's
good.
So what you're saying is, and, and I love that
you brought Lex Luthor into there, the antithesis to Superman, uh, and,
and would you say in that, that contrast of his
character Lex Luthor to Superman, and we're just doing in
general here, we'll get into the nitty gritty of James Gunn, Superman,
Christopher Reeve, Superman. I know that I'm not going to
(04:16):
give that, I'm going to say Christopher Reeve because that's
how I know him.
But, uh, would you say there's a certain jealousy in
that Lex Luthor somehow cannot achieve said greatness and so
therefore he was, OK, absolutely. Well, I just I softball
lobbed that up for you and you hit it like
Shoe Otani
Speaker 2 (04:36):
even in, even in the latest one, I mean it,
it is undeniable that that Lex looks at Superman.
That way and
Speaker 1 (04:45):
gel with jealousy and and maybe that taps into the
the darker parts of even our human nature that we,
we almost despise that which we ourselves cannot achieve, which
is really a sad condition of our human condition if
you will. So, uh, before we go into that dark depth,
(05:06):
but go ahead if you have any response to that, I,
Speaker 2 (05:08):
I do think, I do think that Lex Luthor is
a great example of kind of the reality.
Of our human condition that even at our supposed best.
There's something better out there.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, and Lex Luthor, I mean, he's rich, he, he's smart, he,
he makes a whole bunch of cool gadgets that do
a lot of cool things and everything you see him do,
and yet even with all of his great intellect and, uh,
riches and pursuits, he cannot achieve that X factor, if
you will, that, that, that goodness, uh, of making goodness fashionable. Uh,
(05:47):
he just can't do it.
So it, yeah, well, OK, so moving on in light
of the most recent James Gunn Superman movie, which I'll
admit when, when I saw the preview for that.
And I heard the John Williams da da da da
da da da da apologies for those on radio as
I try and hum this classic uh uh compo composition
(06:11):
of music. When I heard that, I was like, yes,
that's the one thing I felt like, and sorry if
I digress here, Man of Steel lacked. No, no, uh,
shade toward Hans Zimmer. I loved, I love the Man
of Steel soundtrack.
But one thing I, I felt like that they, they
lost was that, that, uh, hopeful music, if you will,
from the original soundtrack from Superman 1 and 2 with
(06:32):
Christopher Reeves. But with regard to James Gunn's Superman, sorry, I,
I went on a tangent there, but I'm bringing it
back here.
And, uh, Superman 1 and 2, I won't even mention
the other two, let's go 1 and 2, Superman Returns,
which I thought was a worthy notable, uh, movie, Man
of Steel in the Schneider-Verse, how do you think each
of these, uh, each has captured people's hearts and minds, um,
(06:57):
with regard to some common threads of, of faith, uh, uh,
like you mentioned, truth and justice, and as I mentioned earlier,
the American way, as it were.
Uh, how do these movies holistically capture those elements?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So we're gonna do a deep dive for the next
few minutes. All right guys, and get ready
and I'm gonna come back.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
He's not joking. He's
Speaker 2 (07:20):
going in. No, I'm not. Well, we're going in and
I'm gonna come back to what I said before about hope,
because if you're gonna talk about the live action interpretations
of Superman on the silver screen, you have to know
a little bit about.
What was happening in cinema in the 1970s,
Speaker 1 (07:41):
OK, when the Christopher Reeve movies came out,
Speaker 2 (07:44):
correct, because in the 1970s, that decade, you had Watergate,
you had the end of Vietnam, you had the Nixon administration,
all of these things that kind of put America in
a place where they didn't.
Trust authority and didn't trust institutions and rightfully so. Um,
you could argue we're back at some of that, you know,
(08:07):
now today, and it's part of the reason why Superman
is so important. But at that time, you had movies
like The Godfather and Godfather 2. You had movies like
Taxi Driver and Dirty Harry and The French Connection, also
starring Gene Hackman, and all of these movies had a,
a kind of darker, moodier vibe to them.
(08:30):
And, and then in 1977 in May, things begin to change.
Star Wars. No, no, that, that's it though. Star Wars
came out. Star Wars came out. Yes, you're, you are
crossing the streams and that's intentional because Star Wars.
It was the movie that started to bring that hopeful
(08:52):
idealism back into American cinema, into American
culture.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I mean, it's titled A New Hope, Episode 4, A
New
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Hope. Exactly, exactly. And so you could, you could argue
that Star Wars was a new hope for cinema.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So we're kind of going on a deep dive of,
of American cultural.
History here, Aaron. I didn't even anticipate that. This is great.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
We are and then a year, a year later, 1978,
you get Superman. You get Richard Donner's Superman, and you
get Christopher Reeves's Superman. And part of the reason that
that worked so well, part of the reason why that
movie has provided, in the words of Glen Weldon, um,
(09:33):
from NPR who wrote.
Uh, the essentially Superman, the unauthorized biography, very, very good book.
He essentially, he essentially makes the argument that the Donner
film provided the superhero film template that we've used for
over the last almost 40, 50 years. Wow.
(09:56):
And part of the reason that it worked so well
was because Christopher Reeves played the character earnestly, right, going
back to the idea of making goodness fashionable.
You get that in Superman 1 and Superman 2. He's
still playing it earnestly. He's up against Lex Luthor. He's
(10:17):
up against General Zod, and these two characters are representations
of both earthly and cosmic evil pause that he goes
up against
Speaker 1 (10:26):
for, for those that are like Lex Luthor and, uh,
General Zod, who are these guys? Listen, my friends in
radio and podcast land.
You got to watch even the most recent Superman to
get an idea or Man of Steel to get an idea.
These are iconic characters which, like we said earlier, point
out the depravity of humanity and our darkest sides, which
(10:49):
contrast with the character of Clark Kent slash Superman, who
brings out the best of us. So continue, Aaron, keep going.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So Superman 2, you have him going up against Zod
and Luthor, but the thing that I find most interesting
about Superman 2.
is actually the fact that he gets to a point
where he's willing to give up his powers. He's willing
to give up his Superman-ness to be with Lois. And
every time I watch that sequence, I think about what
(11:20):
Paul wrote in Philippians 2, right, the Kenosis poem about
Christ and his willing to empty, his willingness to empty himself,
you know, Superman was willing to empty himself of his Kryptonianness,
of his superness.
And
You know, take on a degree of human form that
he hadn't taken on before,
Speaker 1 (11:40):
right,
so you're pulling out an allegorical, almost parallel to what
Paul writes about Jesus and his, his willful choosing of
humility in Philippians 2:1 through 11 and, and taking on
the mantle of a servant.
And making himself nothing in order to serve and to
(12:01):
save humanity in correlation to that character trait of Superman.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That and the fact that in order to be with,
to be present as much as he could with the
individual that he loved the most, Lois Lane, that's what
he had to do.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
And which I think, Aaron, and feel free to keep
going on what you're doing because I, I feel like
we haven't gone as deep as you want to and
hopefully we'll be able to get there, but I, I've
got to go with this. John 3:16, where the Bible
says in the new international version, for God so loved
the world that He gave His one and only Son.
That whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
(12:40):
eternal life, and I'm gonna go into verse 17, for
God did not send His Son into the world to
condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
And so we know Jesus, who is truly the, uh,
ultimate Superman, or rather Godman, and he is fully God,
fully man as we know, and yet as you, I
(13:02):
love that you brought out that Greek word kenosis.
That Jesus emptied himself to become nothing so that he
could be with us and show us who God truly is,
the Father, because Jesus said, if you've seen me, you've
seen the Father, and then of course, as we know
I'm a, I'm a a spoiler alert, Jesus dies on
(13:22):
the cross and here it goes 3 days later.
He rises from the dead. Oh, let's have Easter right now.
I mean, we celebrate that resurrection every week on the
Lord's Day, every Sunday. So, so there's this correlation. Sorry,
if I am, if I'm preaching, I'm gonna try and
pull back here because now I'm gonna go deep with preaching.
I wanna let you continue. I hope our listeners are
engaging here. By the way, if you're just joining us,
(13:43):
Aaron Welty.
He is with us. He is, uh, uh, uh, all
authority on all things geek and Superman and superheroes, and
so we have him here talking about Superman. And so Aaron,
continue on in light of this correlation as you brought
out Philippians 2, and, and we see that John 3:16,
arguably the most popular New, New Testament passage when believers
(14:04):
in Jesus, uh, that is in our Savior, are watching
these movies, Superman, and, and, and, and hopeful things as
you said, uh.
And like I said, keep talking as you were before,
but also answer this if you can intertwine it. How
should we approach this mythical character of Superman in light of,
and you're probably getting there anyway, and I probably cut
(14:24):
you off, but I apologize, but here we go, in
light of the real savior Jesus and Scripture, how do we,
how do we find that, um, using that quote unquote
altar to the unknown God as Paul talks about
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Superman 17, right? There
Speaker 1 (14:37):
you go, and, uh, and, and point to Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So you mentioned Easter, right, and the reality of Jesus'
death and resurrection discharged, I did, right? That is what
the Snyder, the Snyder verse, the Zack Snyder movies are
all about from Man of Steel forward, from, from Man
of Steel forward through particularly his version of Justice League
(15:02):
that came out in 2021. You basically have the, you know,
Christ ark.
Of death and resurrection across those three films. I mean
there's other, there's other things that, that happen, you know,
that are related more towards, you know, the comic books
(15:23):
that they're drawn from, but that's the overarching arc is that.
You know, Superman is killed by Doomsday, comes back to life, and,
and joins with the Justice League to defeat Steppenwolf and
at least temporarily prevent Dark side from invading Earth.
So you, you go ahead, continue. You have that, that
(15:47):
arc that happens in these movies, but the thing about
when we look at, you know, Superman and Jesus, the
thing I feel like I have to say is Superman
and Jesus are not the same, right? Amen. it's not,
it's not a 1 to 1, and I don't think
that that's what either of us are arguing just for
our
Speaker 1 (16:06):
studio audience or not studio audience, sorry, I don't even
know what I'm saying there.
Our, our, our radio audience and our podcast audience to clarify,
we see Jesus as Jesus, the Son of the living God.
He is God. Superman is a mythical character. We're just
having fun with the correlation and the allegory here.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yep, yep. But here's what I, here's what I think
is interesting. I'm going to quote some, some writers who
have written Superman comics and who have written about Superman.
So Grant, Grant Morrison.
Who is a well-known comic book writer for both Marvel
and DC. He's written Superman, Batman, the X-Men, the Justice League,
(16:44):
you name it. He's probably dabbled a little bit.
Years ago, he wrote a book called Super Gods. And
in this, he says, Grant Morrison says, there is a
persistent set of characteristics that define Superman through decades of
creative voices, and it is that essential unshakable quality of
(17:07):
Supermanness that the character possesses in every incarnation, which is
divinity by any other name.
Specifically, there was the Western deity that Superman best resembled.
Superman was Christ, an unkillable champion sent, sent down by
(17:29):
His Heavenly Father, Jorel to redeem us by example. But
if the story of Jesus has a central theme, it's
this When a God elects to come to earth, he
has to make a few sacrifices. Wow.
So that's Grant Morrison.
And then Glenn Weldon.
(17:49):
Who wrote a book called The Unauthorized Biography of Superman.
He writes that with Siegel, you know, Jerry Siegel, who
wrote Superman, with Siegel's use of the phrase sleeping babe,
there's a biblical subtext forever that forever becomes part of
Superman's DNA. The reader may think of Moses amidst the
(18:13):
reeds or Jesus in the manger. It's an element of
the character.
That has inspired comic book writers and filmmakers for years.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Wow. So they're really modeling after what God already wrote. Uh,
the originality comes from God in Scripture. I love that
you correlated Moses, who is a Christ figure in the
Old Testament and, and a savior to the people of Israel, uh,
from Egypt, and then Jesus himself in the mangers. He's
come through the virgin birth and is incarnate, and he,
(18:45):
he is among us.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
So I think, I think some of this, you know,
to go back and to talk a little bit about
history and context again.
1938.
Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster are two Jewish guys from Cleveland, right? So,
and a lot of the early, um, comic book writers,
(19:08):
Bob Kane and Bill Finger, who gave us Batman, Jack Kirby,
Steve Ditko, all six of these guys, they're all Jewish.
And so what, and this is, this is my personal opinion,
after years of reading comic books and reading about the
industry and reading about these guys, I think.
That part of what was happening is that part of
(19:30):
their Jewish identity and part of their Jewish longing for
Messiah was coming out in the panels and pages of
these comic books. Well,
Speaker 1 (19:41):
and also I say this in all seriousness, Aaron, guys,
trust me when I say this, Aaron is like, you'll
be hard pressed to find somebody who knows more about
comic books and all things superhero and Star Wars and
all that.
So when you say that, uh, I take that as a, a,
an authoritative statement, Erin, where these guys, they're, they're, they're
looking for hope and probably I don't, I don't think
(20:04):
any of those gentlemen were Christians, so they're still longing
for Messiah. There's still a longing in them, not realizing
that Messiah came 2000 years ago and is fulfilled in
the person of Jesus Christ. The parallels obviously of Moses
and Jesus are, are, you can't, you can't deny that.
And the deliverance of, of God's people. So, uh, that
(20:24):
is a, that is a awesome, awesome correlation and in
light of time because I wanna make sure we can
keep moving here and get to the new Superman movie,
is there anything else you wanted to say before I
move to the next question?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
The thing I'll, I'll, the thing I'll go back to
that I said at the beginning is you can't talk
about Superman without talking about hope, and you can't, you
can't talk about hope without understanding that hope, at least
according to Paul in the New Testament and other writers
in the New Testament, hope was a confident expectation of
(21:01):
the future. Hope was tenacious confidence in future expectation.
That was ultimately rooted in the events of the life, death,
and resurrection of Jesus. And so if you don't have that,
if you don't wrestle with that.
There's a piece that I believe of the Superman mythos
(21:23):
that you're not going to understand as deeply if you're
not able to parallel it with what we're talking about
today about Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, and even Romans 5, where, where Paul says perseverance
produces character and character hope and hope does not disappoint. Uh,
even the lines where they, it's a bird, it's a plane,
it's Superman, it's like people looking for a savior, looking
above for somebody to come save them in their moment
of need.
Well, as we continue on, uh, and Superman Returns, Kal-El.
(21:55):
That is Superman, he says to Lois Lane.
You wrote the world doesn't need a savior, and yet
I hear them crying out for one every day. That line,
when I heard that, I'm like, oh come on, this,
it's there. And in Gun's Superman, you hear Lois Lane
say to Superman or Clark Kent, my point is I
question everything and everyone, and she says to Superman, you
(22:16):
trust everyone and think everyone you've ever met is like beautiful,
and then Superman replies, maybe that's the real punk rock.
And so in both of these lines, it reveals a
heart from the character of Superman to help, to serve,
and even save people. So we've kind of answered a
little bit of this, but let's go in this for
(22:39):
the next few minutes because that's all we have. How
should we as Christians embody or even enhance that superpower
of kindness also happens to be one of the eight
fruits of the Holy Spirit, as we find in Galatians
chapter 5.
How, how do we, how do we take that into
our own living reality, that character trait of kindness.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
In the time that we've got left, let me see
if I can connect some dots, right? We, we mentioned
Star Wars earlier, to quote a famous line from Star Wars,
Rebellions are built on hope. Rebellions are built on hope, right?
And we talked just a moment ago about hope being
(23:22):
a confident expectation of the future.
And that that's got to be rooted in the reality
of Christ on the cross at Calvary and the resurrection.
Because
Hope.
Is actually the real punk rock. Hope, hope is the
real punk rock because hope is a rebellion towards a
(23:47):
selfish and cynical culture, and I don't think I'd be,
you know, too hard pressed to say that's the kind
of culture we live in in this moment. And so
hope is the real punk rock, but if you don't
have the reality of the hope of Jesus, right, then
you don't have access to the Holy Spirit.
And if you don't have access to the Holy Spirit,
(24:10):
you don't necessarily have access to the fruit of the Spirit,
one of which, as you said, is kindness. So I
see there being a direct link, granted, there's some dots
to connect, but there's a link between hope as an
act of rebellion and kindness,
Speaker 1 (24:26):
and an act of rebellion against the darkness.
Uh, with, with this last thing, and, and this is
something that I think will just, uh, maybe people, you
can settle this, Aaron, in light of Christopher Reeves, Superman, uh,
in Superman one and two, Superman Returns, Man of Steel,
and all the movies there after the Schneider-verse, and the
most recent Superman 2025, um, what level would you put
(24:51):
the new Superman at, Aaron? We need a professional opinion and.
Uh, do you recommend people see it if they haven't already?
But yeah, what, what, uh, in, in the last minute
that we, that I have with you here, um, how
would you rank these movies and does it fit? And
if so, how
Speaker 2 (25:08):
does the new the new
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Superman, the new Superman, yeah, how does it fit in
the others? I,
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I believe that it does. I would put it 3rd, OK,
behind the original Superman, the classic Reeves.
Uh, I would put Man of Steel 2nd, and then
I would put this 1 3rd, and then, you know,
you can deal with whatever beyond that. Um, do I
think you say
Speaker 1 (25:29):
the
original Superman's with Christopher Reeve 1 and 2 would be the,
the top level Superman?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Well, I, I would, I, I would put, I would
put Man of Steel.
After the original Superman, and I would put Superman 2
somewhere else because in Man in Man of Steel you
get a better Zod. Yeah, you, you get a Zod.
You get azo who actually believes he's the hero that
(25:56):
he's doing the right thing, and you don't necessarily get
that with Terrence Stamp as much as I love Terrence.
Stamp is on. So, you know, do I think that
people should see the new Superman? Absolutely,
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I do. On that note, Superman's fun and we've had
fun talking about him today. Aaron. Thank you so much
for joining us on Kingdom and Culture. Thanks for having me, Mike.
Thank you, all of you out there on radio and podcast.
We'll see you next time on Kingdom and Culture.
Perhaps you've heard the phrase, it's a bird, it's a plane,
it's Superman or truth, justice and the American way. I
know that's the old school way of saying it, but
my friends, both of these phrases are an iconic American
cultural reality. Superman, AKA Clark Kent. Welcome to Kingdom and Culture.
(00:40):
Where the truth and grace of the kingdom of God
courageously intersect the complexity or in this case the superheroes
of culture.
Today on Kingdom and Culture, we have actually a returning guest,
Aaron Welty.
And for those who don't know his credentials, all you
need to know today is he is an authority on
(01:01):
all things superhero, geekdom, nerding out, anything and everything under
the sun as far as it pertains to sci-fi, superheroes,
and even fantasy. This guy knows his stuff. What's more,
is he is able to correlate it to biblical truth
and living. And so that's why we have Aaron on today.
(01:21):
And so, in light of all that, we're gonna just
jump right in and we're gonna talk about Superman.
So Aaron, welcome back. Good to have you.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Great to be here, man. It's good to see
you.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
You too. Uh, Superman, as I mentioned, has long been
an American icon of sorts since his creation in the
1930s and in the very first official comic book, as
it has been known, with Action Comics number one.
And I'm sure for Halloween in 2025, we're going to
see and or will have seen a plethora of little
(01:55):
Supermen flying around the United States. So, Aaron, why do
you think Superman has had such a long and enduring
influence over Americans, both young and old? Why, why, why
has this character lasted almost 100 years since his inception?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Mike, I can give it to you in a single
statement that I'll unpack, and that, and that statement is
Superman is a symbol of hope. Superman is a symbol
of hope. He's a symbol of goodness, of truth, and
of justice wrapped in superpowers. There you go. Superman is
(02:40):
like Captain America, the best.
The best a man can be.
Wow, this is, this is why Lex Luthor hates him
so much, because he is the best of us.
Even though he comes to us from some place other
than our own, he's the best of us.
(03:04):
Superman is the, he's the hero that calls us upward.
He's someone to believe in and aspire to as he
shows us.
What we can look like at our best, Superman is
the symbol that fulfills our longing. He fulfills our longing
(03:25):
for safety, for sanctuary.
And for savior.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Oh, you just did alliteration there. You, you put three
S's on there. I did going with Superman.
And
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Superman, Superman's the symbol of what we know to be
deeply true and just. And to borrow a phrase from
William Wilberforce, the English abolitionist, Superman makes goodness fashionable.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, that's
good.
So what you're saying is, and, and I love that
you brought Lex Luthor into there, the antithesis to Superman, uh, and,
and would you say in that, that contrast of his
character Lex Luthor to Superman, and we're just doing in
general here, we'll get into the nitty gritty of James Gunn, Superman,
Christopher Reeve, Superman. I know that I'm not going to
(04:16):
give that, I'm going to say Christopher Reeve because that's
how I know him.
But, uh, would you say there's a certain jealousy in
that Lex Luthor somehow cannot achieve said greatness and so
therefore he was, OK, absolutely. Well, I just I softball
lobbed that up for you and you hit it like
Shoe Otani
Speaker 2 (04:36):
even in, even in the latest one, I mean it,
it is undeniable that that Lex looks at Superman.
That way and
Speaker 1 (04:45):
gel with jealousy and and maybe that taps into the
the darker parts of even our human nature that we,
we almost despise that which we ourselves cannot achieve, which
is really a sad condition of our human condition if
you will. So, uh, before we go into that dark depth,
(05:06):
but go ahead if you have any response to that, I,
Speaker 2 (05:08):
I do think, I do think that Lex Luthor is
a great example of kind of the reality.
Of our human condition that even at our supposed best.
There's something better out there.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, and Lex Luthor, I mean, he's rich, he, he's smart, he,
he makes a whole bunch of cool gadgets that do
a lot of cool things and everything you see him do,
and yet even with all of his great intellect and, uh,
riches and pursuits, he cannot achieve that X factor, if
you will, that, that, that goodness, uh, of making goodness fashionable. Uh,
(05:47):
he just can't do it.
So it, yeah, well, OK, so moving on in light
of the most recent James Gunn Superman movie, which I'll
admit when, when I saw the preview for that.
And I heard the John Williams da da da da
da da da da apologies for those on radio as
I try and hum this classic uh uh compo composition
(06:11):
of music. When I heard that, I was like, yes,
that's the one thing I felt like, and sorry if
I digress here, Man of Steel lacked. No, no, uh,
shade toward Hans Zimmer. I loved, I love the Man
of Steel soundtrack.
But one thing I, I felt like that they, they
lost was that, that, uh, hopeful music, if you will,
from the original soundtrack from Superman 1 and 2 with
(06:32):
Christopher Reeves. But with regard to James Gunn's Superman, sorry, I,
I went on a tangent there, but I'm bringing it
back here.
And, uh, Superman 1 and 2, I won't even mention
the other two, let's go 1 and 2, Superman Returns,
which I thought was a worthy notable, uh, movie, Man
of Steel in the Schneider-Verse, how do you think each
of these, uh, each has captured people's hearts and minds, um,
(06:57):
with regard to some common threads of, of faith, uh, uh,
like you mentioned, truth and justice, and as I mentioned earlier,
the American way, as it were.
Uh, how do these movies holistically capture those elements?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So we're gonna do a deep dive for the next
few minutes. All right guys, and get ready
and I'm gonna come back.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
He's not joking. He's
Speaker 2 (07:20):
going in. No, I'm not. Well, we're going in and
I'm gonna come back to what I said before about hope,
because if you're gonna talk about the live action interpretations
of Superman on the silver screen, you have to know
a little bit about.
What was happening in cinema in the 1970s,
Speaker 1 (07:41):
OK, when the Christopher Reeve movies came out,
Speaker 2 (07:44):
correct, because in the 1970s, that decade, you had Watergate,
you had the end of Vietnam, you had the Nixon administration,
all of these things that kind of put America in
a place where they didn't.
Trust authority and didn't trust institutions and rightfully so. Um,
you could argue we're back at some of that, you know,
(08:07):
now today, and it's part of the reason why Superman
is so important. But at that time, you had movies
like The Godfather and Godfather 2. You had movies like
Taxi Driver and Dirty Harry and The French Connection, also
starring Gene Hackman, and all of these movies had a,
a kind of darker, moodier vibe to them.
(08:30):
And, and then in 1977 in May, things begin to change.
Star Wars. No, no, that, that's it though. Star Wars
came out. Star Wars came out. Yes, you're, you are
crossing the streams and that's intentional because Star Wars.
It was the movie that started to bring that hopeful
(08:52):
idealism back into American cinema, into American
culture.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I mean, it's titled A New Hope, Episode 4, A
New
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Hope. Exactly, exactly. And so you could, you could argue
that Star Wars was a new hope for cinema.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So we're kind of going on a deep dive of,
of American cultural.
History here, Aaron. I didn't even anticipate that. This is great.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
We are and then a year, a year later, 1978,
you get Superman. You get Richard Donner's Superman, and you
get Christopher Reeves's Superman. And part of the reason that
that worked so well, part of the reason why that
movie has provided, in the words of Glen Weldon, um,
(09:33):
from NPR who wrote.
Uh, the essentially Superman, the unauthorized biography, very, very good book.
He essentially, he essentially makes the argument that the Donner
film provided the superhero film template that we've used for
over the last almost 40, 50 years. Wow.
(09:56):
And part of the reason that it worked so well
was because Christopher Reeves played the character earnestly, right, going
back to the idea of making goodness fashionable.
You get that in Superman 1 and Superman 2. He's
still playing it earnestly. He's up against Lex Luthor. He's
(10:17):
up against General Zod, and these two characters are representations
of both earthly and cosmic evil pause that he goes
up against
Speaker 1 (10:26):
for, for those that are like Lex Luthor and, uh,
General Zod, who are these guys? Listen, my friends in
radio and podcast land.
You got to watch even the most recent Superman to
get an idea or Man of Steel to get an idea.
These are iconic characters which, like we said earlier, point
out the depravity of humanity and our darkest sides, which
(10:49):
contrast with the character of Clark Kent slash Superman, who
brings out the best of us. So continue, Aaron, keep going.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So Superman 2, you have him going up against Zod
and Luthor, but the thing that I find most interesting
about Superman 2.
is actually the fact that he gets to a point
where he's willing to give up his powers. He's willing
to give up his Superman-ness to be with Lois. And
every time I watch that sequence, I think about what
(11:20):
Paul wrote in Philippians 2, right, the Kenosis poem about
Christ and his willing to empty, his willingness to empty himself,
you know, Superman was willing to empty himself of his Kryptonianness,
of his superness.
And
You know, take on a degree of human form that
he hadn't taken on before,
Speaker 1 (11:40):
right,
so you're pulling out an allegorical, almost parallel to what
Paul writes about Jesus and his, his willful choosing of
humility in Philippians 2:1 through 11 and, and taking on
the mantle of a servant.
And making himself nothing in order to serve and to
(12:01):
save humanity in correlation to that character trait of Superman.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That and the fact that in order to be with,
to be present as much as he could with the
individual that he loved the most, Lois Lane, that's what
he had to do.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
And which I think, Aaron, and feel free to keep
going on what you're doing because I, I feel like
we haven't gone as deep as you want to and
hopefully we'll be able to get there, but I, I've
got to go with this. John 3:16, where the Bible
says in the new international version, for God so loved
the world that He gave His one and only Son.
That whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
(12:40):
eternal life, and I'm gonna go into verse 17, for
God did not send His Son into the world to
condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
And so we know Jesus, who is truly the, uh,
ultimate Superman, or rather Godman, and he is fully God,
fully man as we know, and yet as you, I
(13:02):
love that you brought out that Greek word kenosis.
That Jesus emptied himself to become nothing so that he
could be with us and show us who God truly is,
the Father, because Jesus said, if you've seen me, you've
seen the Father, and then of course, as we know
I'm a, I'm a a spoiler alert, Jesus dies on
(13:22):
the cross and here it goes 3 days later.
He rises from the dead. Oh, let's have Easter right now.
I mean, we celebrate that resurrection every week on the
Lord's Day, every Sunday. So, so there's this correlation. Sorry,
if I am, if I'm preaching, I'm gonna try and
pull back here because now I'm gonna go deep with preaching.
I wanna let you continue. I hope our listeners are
engaging here. By the way, if you're just joining us,
(13:43):
Aaron Welty.
He is with us. He is, uh, uh, uh, all
authority on all things geek and Superman and superheroes, and
so we have him here talking about Superman. And so Aaron,
continue on in light of this correlation as you brought
out Philippians 2, and, and we see that John 3:16,
arguably the most popular New, New Testament passage when believers
(14:04):
in Jesus, uh, that is in our Savior, are watching
these movies, Superman, and, and, and, and hopeful things as
you said, uh.
And like I said, keep talking as you were before,
but also answer this if you can intertwine it. How
should we approach this mythical character of Superman in light of,
and you're probably getting there anyway, and I probably cut
(14:24):
you off, but I apologize, but here we go, in
light of the real savior Jesus and Scripture, how do we,
how do we find that, um, using that quote unquote
altar to the unknown God as Paul talks about
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Superman 17, right? There
Speaker 1 (14:37):
you go, and, uh, and, and point to Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So you mentioned Easter, right, and the reality of Jesus'
death and resurrection discharged, I did, right? That is what
the Snyder, the Snyder verse, the Zack Snyder movies are
all about from Man of Steel forward, from, from Man
of Steel forward through particularly his version of Justice League
(15:02):
that came out in 2021. You basically have the, you know,
Christ ark.
Of death and resurrection across those three films. I mean
there's other, there's other things that, that happen, you know,
that are related more towards, you know, the comic books
(15:23):
that they're drawn from, but that's the overarching arc is that.
You know, Superman is killed by Doomsday, comes back to life, and,
and joins with the Justice League to defeat Steppenwolf and
at least temporarily prevent Dark side from invading Earth.
So you, you go ahead, continue. You have that, that
(15:47):
arc that happens in these movies, but the thing about
when we look at, you know, Superman and Jesus, the
thing I feel like I have to say is Superman
and Jesus are not the same, right? Amen. it's not,
it's not a 1 to 1, and I don't think
that that's what either of us are arguing just for
our
Speaker 1 (16:06):
studio audience or not studio audience, sorry, I don't even
know what I'm saying there.
Our, our, our radio audience and our podcast audience to clarify,
we see Jesus as Jesus, the Son of the living God.
He is God. Superman is a mythical character. We're just
having fun with the correlation and the allegory here.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yep, yep. But here's what I, here's what I think
is interesting. I'm going to quote some, some writers who
have written Superman comics and who have written about Superman.
So Grant, Grant Morrison.
Who is a well-known comic book writer for both Marvel
and DC. He's written Superman, Batman, the X-Men, the Justice League,
(16:44):
you name it. He's probably dabbled a little bit.
Years ago, he wrote a book called Super Gods. And
in this, he says, Grant Morrison says, there is a
persistent set of characteristics that define Superman through decades of
creative voices, and it is that essential unshakable quality of
(17:07):
Supermanness that the character possesses in every incarnation, which is
divinity by any other name.
Specifically, there was the Western deity that Superman best resembled.
Superman was Christ, an unkillable champion sent, sent down by
(17:29):
His Heavenly Father, Jorel to redeem us by example. But
if the story of Jesus has a central theme, it's
this When a God elects to come to earth, he
has to make a few sacrifices. Wow.
So that's Grant Morrison.
And then Glenn Weldon.
(17:49):
Who wrote a book called The Unauthorized Biography of Superman.
He writes that with Siegel, you know, Jerry Siegel, who
wrote Superman, with Siegel's use of the phrase sleeping babe,
there's a biblical subtext forever that forever becomes part of
Superman's DNA. The reader may think of Moses amidst the
(18:13):
reeds or Jesus in the manger. It's an element of
the character.
That has inspired comic book writers and filmmakers for years.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Wow. So they're really modeling after what God already wrote. Uh,
the originality comes from God in Scripture. I love that
you correlated Moses, who is a Christ figure in the
Old Testament and, and a savior to the people of Israel, uh,
from Egypt, and then Jesus himself in the mangers. He's
come through the virgin birth and is incarnate, and he,
(18:45):
he is among us.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
So I think, I think some of this, you know,
to go back and to talk a little bit about
history and context again.
1938.
Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster are two Jewish guys from Cleveland, right? So,
and a lot of the early, um, comic book writers,
(19:08):
Bob Kane and Bill Finger, who gave us Batman, Jack Kirby,
Steve Ditko, all six of these guys, they're all Jewish.
And so what, and this is, this is my personal opinion,
after years of reading comic books and reading about the
industry and reading about these guys, I think.
That part of what was happening is that part of
(19:30):
their Jewish identity and part of their Jewish longing for
Messiah was coming out in the panels and pages of
these comic books. Well,
Speaker 1 (19:41):
and also I say this in all seriousness, Aaron, guys,
trust me when I say this, Aaron is like, you'll
be hard pressed to find somebody who knows more about
comic books and all things superhero and Star Wars and
all that.
So when you say that, uh, I take that as a, a,
an authoritative statement, Erin, where these guys, they're, they're, they're
looking for hope and probably I don't, I don't think
(20:04):
any of those gentlemen were Christians, so they're still longing
for Messiah. There's still a longing in them, not realizing
that Messiah came 2000 years ago and is fulfilled in
the person of Jesus Christ. The parallels obviously of Moses
and Jesus are, are, you can't, you can't deny that.
And the deliverance of, of God's people. So, uh, that
(20:24):
is a, that is a awesome, awesome correlation and in
light of time because I wanna make sure we can
keep moving here and get to the new Superman movie,
is there anything else you wanted to say before I
move to the next question?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
The thing I'll, I'll, the thing I'll go back to
that I said at the beginning is you can't talk
about Superman without talking about hope, and you can't, you
can't talk about hope without understanding that hope, at least
according to Paul in the New Testament and other writers
in the New Testament, hope was a confident expectation of
(21:01):
the future. Hope was tenacious confidence in future expectation.
That was ultimately rooted in the events of the life, death,
and resurrection of Jesus. And so if you don't have that,
if you don't wrestle with that.
There's a piece that I believe of the Superman mythos
(21:23):
that you're not going to understand as deeply if you're
not able to parallel it with what we're talking about
today about Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, and even Romans 5, where, where Paul says perseverance
produces character and character hope and hope does not disappoint. Uh,
even the lines where they, it's a bird, it's a plane,
it's Superman, it's like people looking for a savior, looking
above for somebody to come save them in their moment
of need.
Well, as we continue on, uh, and Superman Returns, Kal-El.
(21:55):
That is Superman, he says to Lois Lane.
You wrote the world doesn't need a savior, and yet
I hear them crying out for one every day. That line,
when I heard that, I'm like, oh come on, this,
it's there. And in Gun's Superman, you hear Lois Lane
say to Superman or Clark Kent, my point is I
question everything and everyone, and she says to Superman, you
(22:16):
trust everyone and think everyone you've ever met is like beautiful,
and then Superman replies, maybe that's the real punk rock.
And so in both of these lines, it reveals a
heart from the character of Superman to help, to serve,
and even save people. So we've kind of answered a
little bit of this, but let's go in this for
(22:39):
the next few minutes because that's all we have. How
should we as Christians embody or even enhance that superpower
of kindness also happens to be one of the eight
fruits of the Holy Spirit, as we find in Galatians
chapter 5.
How, how do we, how do we take that into
our own living reality, that character trait of kindness.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
In the time that we've got left, let me see
if I can connect some dots, right? We, we mentioned
Star Wars earlier, to quote a famous line from Star Wars,
Rebellions are built on hope. Rebellions are built on hope, right?
And we talked just a moment ago about hope being
(23:22):
a confident expectation of the future.
And that that's got to be rooted in the reality
of Christ on the cross at Calvary and the resurrection.
Because
Hope.
Is actually the real punk rock. Hope, hope is the
real punk rock because hope is a rebellion towards a
(23:47):
selfish and cynical culture, and I don't think I'd be,
you know, too hard pressed to say that's the kind
of culture we live in in this moment. And so
hope is the real punk rock, but if you don't
have the reality of the hope of Jesus, right, then
you don't have access to the Holy Spirit.
And if you don't have access to the Holy Spirit,
(24:10):
you don't necessarily have access to the fruit of the Spirit,
one of which, as you said, is kindness. So I
see there being a direct link, granted, there's some dots
to connect, but there's a link between hope as an
act of rebellion and kindness,
Speaker 1 (24:26):
and an act of rebellion against the darkness.
Uh, with, with this last thing, and, and this is
something that I think will just, uh, maybe people, you
can settle this, Aaron, in light of Christopher Reeves, Superman, uh,
in Superman one and two, Superman Returns, Man of Steel,
and all the movies there after the Schneider-verse, and the
most recent Superman 2025, um, what level would you put
(24:51):
the new Superman at, Aaron? We need a professional opinion and.
Uh, do you recommend people see it if they haven't already?
But yeah, what, what, uh, in, in the last minute
that we, that I have with you here, um, how
would you rank these movies and does it fit? And
if so, how
Speaker 2 (25:08):
does the new the new
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Superman, the new Superman, yeah, how does it fit in
the others? I,
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I believe that it does. I would put it 3rd, OK,
behind the original Superman, the classic Reeves.
Uh, I would put Man of Steel 2nd, and then
I would put this 1 3rd, and then, you know,
you can deal with whatever beyond that. Um, do I
think you say
Speaker 1 (25:29):
the
original Superman's with Christopher Reeve 1 and 2 would be the,
the top level Superman?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Well, I, I would, I, I would put, I would
put Man of Steel.
After the original Superman, and I would put Superman 2
somewhere else because in Man in Man of Steel you
get a better Zod. Yeah, you, you get a Zod.
You get azo who actually believes he's the hero that
(25:56):
he's doing the right thing, and you don't necessarily get
that with Terrence Stamp as much as I love Terrence.
Stamp is on. So, you know, do I think that
people should see the new Superman? Absolutely,
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I do. On that note, Superman's fun and we've had
fun talking about him today. Aaron. Thank you so much
for joining us on Kingdom and Culture. Thanks for having me, Mike.
Thank you, all of you out there on radio and podcast.
We'll see you next time on Kingdom and Culture.
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