06 Dec 2025

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:24):
It's just gone 5:00 as I welcome you warmly to
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online at VA radio via Radio Digital Adelaide and Darwin
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(00:48):
Investments in Western Australia, a big hello to you too
if you're listening through the Reading Radio Network and hello
and huge thanks to Disability Media Australia. Thank you so
much for your wonderful support. You can find link plus
much more at Powered Media. Media. Peter Greco saying tremendous

(01:09):
to be here. Thank you for making time to tune in.
We really appreciate that. The busy time of the year,
any time of the year, we appreciate it. This program
coming to you from Ghana land come to you very shortly.
We'll speak to Pat Mikan, inducted into the sport SA
Hall of Fame. We'll find out a bit about Pat.
And one of the great things that Pat has done

(01:29):
is also being part of the Stan Wickham Award at
five PP. So we'll chat to Pat very shortly. We'll
speak to Doctor Adam Bryant about multiple myeloma. Some really
good news that maybe someone you know or love may
be able to be helped via this will speak to
the family about an organization called mum for mum. The

(01:50):
family had triplets. That organization was a wonderful support. David
Mitchell will join us. Our health commentator. Ways to overcome
maybe even prevent hangover. All right. We'll chat to David
about that. Belinda Hellyer will join us from Brewed by
Belinda the brew. That is true. Cooking with tea with
a bit of a Christmas flavor. I'm getting hungry already. Also,

(02:14):
catch up with Professor Abraham Jacob, who talks about a
sensitive topic, the topic of incontinence. But there's some really
good news, some really helpful news that the professor will
share with us. And Mark Townsend will join us. The
always outspoken and forthright Matt Cameron from Spinal Life. Speaking
about incontinence, he's very upset about some of his members

(02:36):
having their services cut by the NDIS. And in a sense,
almost not allowing them to go to the toilet. Well,
last week, Sportsbet inducted their athletes and achievers into the
Hall of Fame. Pat Mickan was one such inductee. Pat Walkman, congratulations.

S2 (02:55):
Thank you very much, Pete. I was just saying off
air that I'm still replaying the night in my head,
and I'm hoping that I can return to normal soon.

S1 (03:05):
I guess when you were running around the fruit blocks
of Renmark. You wouldn't have expected something like this.

S2 (03:11):
Oh my goodness. No concept, no image in my mind
at all. But I do believe that grounding of living
on a fruit block, which was a relatively small size
for a large family, and that actually required everyone to
really participate. Everyone had jobs to do to make it
work financially. And one of the strongest images I have,

(03:33):
Pete having us planted watermelons and then come summer time
to pick them, the truck would go up the middle
of the patch like there were acres and acres of watermelons,
and dad knew which ones were ripe so he would
pick them. And then we would throw the watermelon down
the line to each of us kids, and then the
last person would throw it up to the guy in

(03:54):
the truck and away we'd go. So yeah, just physicalness,
you know, cutting apricots, picking apricots, putting them out to
dry in the sun, then grading them and lifting sweat
boxes and so on and so on. It was a
physical life, and it sort of laid the foundation, I think,
for a more active life in general.

S1 (04:12):
That's a different preseason.

S2 (04:16):
Oh, yes, you're absolutely right.

S1 (04:18):
If there's a fitness coach listening, they might take that
into account and think, well, maybe we can do something
like this with our team. But you represented Australia at
basketball and Olympic Games. You coached at netball, you coached
at Aussie Rules, which was a real breakthrough for your
particular time. Is there anything that kind of really you think, gee,
did I really do that.

S2 (04:36):
When the the task or the job, whatever it is,
when it really means something to you, you invest yourself
in it in a complete sort of way, and in
return you have these sensations, you have these feelings and emotions.
And I think because those emotions are so real that
I don't feel like it was surreal, it feels like

(04:57):
it was real, and that every one of those experiences
gave me something different, but something that really enriched my life.
I'd say, Pete.

S1 (05:06):
What about in terms of when you thought, well, like
sport is for me? Having said that, though, I mean,
you're a qualified journalist, so I mean, you've done things
outside sport as well, but when did you think, you know,
I want to make a life in sport?

S2 (05:16):
Yeah, that's a really good question, because when I knew
that I was going to be inducted into the Hall
of Fame, the South Australian Sport Hall of Fame, it
brought me to a point of reflection. And to be honest, Pete,
it was the first time that I realized and appreciated
the role that sport had played in my life. So

(05:37):
with all those twists and turns of different careers and
different pursuits and different roles within sport, I had never
really felt like I was making a decision to involve
myself in sport and stay in those lanes. So I
guess the first step into sport was becoming a PE
teacher straight after high school, and that was an extension

(05:58):
of my interest in sport, but it was also one
that dad encouraged me to get into. But really, my
heart laid in journalism. I just found the whole media.
The idea of being involved in the media was so
dynamic and immediate and challenging and stimulating. So after a
couple of years of teaching, I then went back to
university and studied a degree in journalism. And so it

(06:21):
went that way. And finding a love of writing. And
then I was sort of channelled, it was obvious to
go into sports coverage as a journalist. And so it
sort of just continued from there, but not really consciously
choosing that. But one thing that has become really obvious
to me is how important sport is. A lot of

(06:41):
the people that I invited to come to the dinner
were lifelong friends that I have made through sport, and
that only enriches your life. Those friendships are genuine, lifelong
friends that I deeply appreciate, and sport has been the
driver for those things.

S1 (06:58):
And when you catch up, it's like you've never been apart.

S2 (07:00):
Yes, absolutely. And you don't have to see each other
every couple of weeks. It is just there. You're right. Yeah.

S1 (07:06):
The reason I ask you about when you decide that
sport was for you, because I guess not that it
was that long ago, Pat, but in those days, you
probably couldn't really make a living at it. I mean,
young kids these days, if they've got a bit of talent,
that there's so many avenues now for their sporting pursuits
to make a career out of it, to make a
good living in some, a very good living out of it.
That wasn't the case in your time.

S2 (07:25):
No it wasn't. You're right. And but I accepted. I
don't wish that it was any different. Only that you're
born into a time, for whatever reason. And I happened
to be blessed by being born into a time when
at least the national organization, in this case Basketball Australia,
began investing support for the women's program. And so we

(07:47):
didn't have to pay our fares to tour overseas and
go to international tournaments and get more professional coaches into
our group of support staff. So we had psychologists and
conditioning coaches and so on. So I was blessed to
have those sorts of opportunities when before players who represented
the Opals in the 50s and 60s just had nothing.

(08:10):
They had to organize chook raffles to get to the
World Championships, for example.

S1 (08:16):
Amazing how times have changed. Pat, one of the great
things that she did, and I have very fond memories
and in a sense, some sad memories as well. When
you were a judge for the Stan Wickham Award, which
this radio station ran through the 90s, and you were
a judge along with the late Barry Robinson and Russell Ebert,
and I said, it's a bit of a sad reflection
because neither of those guys are with us. And if
there was two guys that you think were ten foot

(08:38):
tall and bulletproof, it would have been Russell and Barry.

S2 (08:40):
Absolutely. Pete, I do reflect on that two and two
fine human beings. It's funny that we know that as
female athletes. Very much so. You can't be what you
can't see. And so there was I, a kid growing up,
a girl who was a tomboy, admittedly, but growing up
on a fruit block in Renmark, miles away, remotely in

(09:03):
many ways from what was happening in football in South Australia,
at Adelaide Oval and so on. But my two role
models were Russell Ebert and Barry Robin. Yeah, as a female,
and I'm sure I speak for lots of young kids,
but especially boys. So there I was as part of
this selection panel for athletes with disabilities, and got to

(09:25):
know those two men quite closely. And I remember sitting
at a dinner for the presentation alongside Barry, Robin, and
as a journalist, I was interested to ask him about
whether a book would ever be written about him, because
of course, I was suggesting that I might be the
person if he was interested, but he just said, no,

(09:46):
I just am not interested yet. Of course, we all
know that every South Australian would have been interested to
know his story.

S1 (09:53):
And of course people say, oh, you know, Russell and Barry,
they're great place, but they're even better blokes. You think? Oh, yeah.
Of course. You know, people are going to say that
because that's what people do. But I think that is
so genuine, isn't it? I mean, you couldn't have met
two nicer guys, two more gentle guys, you know, on
the footy field, one thing, but off the ground you
just couldn't meet two nicer guys.

S2 (10:10):
I agree, and I don't know, Pete, where you were
born and raised, but I like to think that, you know,
Barry came from Whyalla and Russell came from Loxton. And
the thing about country people, I think now I'm saying
that because I'm from Renmark. So I think there's a
lack of pretence amongst country people. They're a bit more
down to earth or something like that. And I think

(10:31):
those qualities shine through whatever their circumstance and wherever they
are in life.

S1 (10:36):
I might play that card. I grew up at Waterloo Corner.
When I grew up there, it was a country town.
It's now a suburb, so maybe I can claim that
as well. Yeah, I remember fondly and I hope it's
okay to ask this. I remember fondly when you and
your husband Lou, adopted your first child, and I remember
you telling us the story about when you loo and

(10:56):
the child sat on the floor and kind of got
to know each other and kind of finding that trust,
that confidence in each other. I remember that interview vividly,
and you explained that to us. I'm sure you can
still remember that.

S2 (11:07):
Oh, absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. So our first child was
our biological daughter, Sydney, and then Reuben, we decided to adopt.
His name was Getahun. We later offered him the name Reuben,
which he accepted, but yes. So it was over in
Addis Ababa in Ethiopia. And I think the lead in

(11:27):
to that, the application for the adoption and all the
things that go before you actually can go to that
country to meet your child, had taken about three years.
And so finally we get the chance to go and
to meet him. And we were in the foster home
in Addis Ababa for children who were being adopted by
Australian families. And we had gone there and there was

(11:50):
so much anxiety in all of us leading into this.
Would he love us? Would he connect with us? All
of those things, this gigantic step that he was about
to take. And we were too. And we met the
woman who ran the she and her husband ran the
foster home beautifully, by the way, and she said, would
you like a cup of tea? And we said yes

(12:11):
to calm our nerves. She disappeared, but she came back
with Reuben in her hand and we just embraced him.
He stood there with his arms by his side, not
really knowing we can't speak to him other than a
few words to say how much we loved him. But
then we sat on the floor, and we had been

(12:32):
given some advice to take some toys with us. And
so we had this little battery operated red car that
when you flicked it on, it just took off and
and raced around the floor. And so Lou sat on
the floor and Reuben sat on his lap. And he
was so intrigued by this thing, switching it on and off,
letting it go around the floor and switching it on

(12:53):
and off again and studying it. And on that day,
on that very day, he called Lu dad. And there
was that physical connection that was made on that day,
and I think it took me a couple more days
to be called mum. But that was a very rich
beginning to a very rich life with that young man.

S1 (13:12):
Fantastic. It says a lot about you and Lu. Obviously
it says a lot about you because I mean this
in the nicest possible way. You're not just an outstanding sportsperson.
There's much more to you than that. I don't know
where that comes from. Maybe it's from your upbringing. Maybe
it's just the way you were born. I mean, sometimes
we don't know why we are like we are.

S2 (13:29):
Yeah. No. That's right. We don't know that. You know,
there are some things. So, for example, we always wanted
a brother or sister for our daughter Sydney. We started late,
so I was 39 when I had Sydney. And so
a cousin of ours, Pam Mickan, she and her partner
had adopted a beautiful little girl from Ethiopia, and we
met her and fell in love with her, and so

(13:52):
thought that we could accomplish the same thing. We could
have a sibling for Sydney, as well as give a family,
a home and family to a child that doesn't have one.
So we felt like it met quite a lot of needs,
and so we embarked on that journey.

S1 (14:07):
Yeah, it's a powerful story, isn't it? Pat, just wrapping up.
We could talk for hours and we have in the past.
You're now involved in administration, so you're still giving back
to sport?

S2 (14:15):
Yes. Sport SA is the peak representative body for sport
in South Australia. And I have been elected president of
the board of that. And it deepens my feeling of
responsibility to Sport Pete, because what is really clear is
that if kids come into sporting clubs, if their first
experiences are joyful ones, they feel connected, they feel welcomed,

(14:39):
they're well coached. It's and parents feel content there. Then
there's likely to be a lifelong involvement in sport in
some way. And so that's what my main priority is,
is to help clubs and associations be well governed and
have that very receptive, welcoming a safe environment for kids

(15:00):
and families.

S1 (15:01):
At Merkin Hall of Famer. Thanks for speaking to us. Congratulations.
Enjoy the moment.

S2 (15:05):
Thank you so much Pete. I am and I will
and but I will let go of it soon and
get on with normal life.

S1 (15:14):
I hope you enjoyed that as much. So that's Pat
McCann and we go back a long way. When Pat
was a judge in the Stan Wickham Awards and has
done so many other things, and just a little bit
of a snapshot there and wonderful recognition when the induction
into the Hall of Fame.

S3 (15:26):
Whoo! Hoo hoo! Hoo!

S1 (15:35):
Let's talk about my linemen. Maybe some good news. Let's
find out and speak to an expert. In fact, he's
a leading hematologist from the Liverpool hospital doctor Adam Bright. Adam,
great to meet you and thank you for your time.

S4 (15:46):
Yes. Thank you Peter.

S1 (15:47):
Well, maybe you could start off with a quick description
of what is myeloma. And then we can go talk
about some of the developments in terms of treatments that
are now available.

S4 (15:56):
Yes, for sure Peter. So multiple myeloma is the disease
that I primarily look after. And it is a type
of blood cancer where it can cause a number of
problems in a patient's body, such as anemia or kidney
problems or bone fractures. So at the moment our myeloma
is treated with combination chemotherapy. So a number of different

(16:17):
medications that are able to get a majority of patients
in remission. But unfortunately for all the patients with myeloma
at this stage, eventually they'll need their disease to be
addressed again once it stops responding to that therapy.

S1 (16:31):
Do we know what response the sort of original therapy?

S4 (16:34):
Well, we've done a lot of work over the over
the years. So in fact, since I've been a haematologist
in 2012, all of the treatments we have have been
used so many, many years of research and clinical trials
have gone into refining the exact treatments and the exact
combination of treatments that are useful. This agent. So really,
there's been a lot of research around this particular blood disorder.

S1 (16:57):
Is anyone more prone to it or are there kind
of common risk factors? How does that kind of play
out look overall?

S4 (17:03):
Probably not Peter. So I think the majority of patients,
it's just bad luck in essence. Um, you know, like
any other cancer, there's been an error in the way
that someone's cells divide in the body. And unfortunately, that
error in patients with multiple myeloma has led this disease,
this cell, to growing out of control and causing the
patient's a problem in that way. I mean, there are

(17:25):
certain sort of very rare families that may have an
increased risk, but overall, I think it's unfortunately just bad
luck for these patients.

S1 (17:34):
Okay, so there might be a genetic component, but fairly
rare overall.

S5 (17:38):
That would be pretty rare.

S1 (17:40):
And the symptoms are easy to pick up.

S6 (17:42):
Look, overall it for the majority of the patients.

S4 (17:46):
They do come to attention because of symptoms. The sorts
of things that might be seen would be a patient
being investigated for anaemia by their GP. I've got some
unfortunate patients who presented with a fracture that just shouldn't
have happened. For example, I had a lovely lady who'd
been shopping and she broke her arm just as she
was picking up her shopping bag and other patients. Maybe

(18:08):
if they've got kidney problems that don't have an explanation.
So overall, it's not a particularly hard disease to diagnose,
but it is very important that GPS and doctors in
general are sort of aware of this disease. So we
know how to intervene before it causes too much problem
in the body.

S1 (18:26):
Blood counts, blood tests, kind of first port of call.

S4 (18:29):
Look, there are a number of investigations that will lead
someone to being referred to see me. There will be
things that can stand out in the Bloods for a
majority of the patients. Um, you know, there's some people
with anemia or kidney disease will have a routine set
of investigations. And part of the thing that we'll be
thinking about is this disease called multiple myeloma. So yes,

(18:50):
for most patients, there can be some pretty clear signs
that will then lead them to be referred to see me.
But actually the ultimate investigation for Michael myeloma is generally, uh,
x ray imaging and a bone marrow biopsy. In the end, unfortunately.

S1 (19:04):
So are there two conditions, if you like multiple myeloma
and myeloma, or are they sort of one in the same?

S6 (19:10):
Yeah, I like that question.

S4 (19:11):
Actually. A lot of my patients will say why is
it multiple myeloma? But actually the reason what they're talking
about is typically cause blood cells, because you can picture
this as blood lives all the way through the body.
So actually for a majority of patients, blood disorders just
pop up throughout the body. And so there are multiple
sites of this disorder. The reason they define it separately,

(19:32):
there is a particular subtype of this disease where the
cell just decides it's going to grow in one spot.
And there's a disease called solitary plasmacytoma, where, for example,
someone might have a fracture in a single location in
their body and we biopsy and it looks like myeloma cells,
which we're expecting to see everywhere. But despite all the
tests I do, I can only find it in that

(19:53):
one spot. And those patients in some ways can be
lucky because we could potentially offer them a curative treatment
with radiotherapy. But overall, multiple myeloma for most patients, we
find it in a number of parts of the body,
and that's why we end up having to give whole
body treatments for these patients.

S1 (20:10):
So it's kind of located in one specific area, but
it doesn't kind of spread because, you know, the blood
goes throughout the body.

S4 (20:18):
Yeah. So for that particular patient it might be just
something about that particular cancer cell that decides it's just
going to stop growing and start growing in one location
so it doesn't have the, I guess, the knowledge to
move throughout the rest of the body. Because actually, cells
often do have to be pretty clever to disseminate themselves
through the body. So, you know, it's a particular type
of myeloma, I guess a solitary plasmacytoma. Really, it's probably

(20:42):
less than 5% of the patients I would see with
this disorder.

S1 (20:45):
Yeah, incredible. I guess the body's an amazing thing. And
sometimes when things go wrong, they're pretty, uh, head scratchers
as well, I would imagine.

S4 (20:52):
Yeah, well, they can be. I mean, look, I mean,
often we look in, occasionally we can have diagnostic dilemmas
where it can be tricky. But actually, luckily for most
myeloma patients, the actual diagnosis itself is relatively straightforward. And
what that means is I can get straight in and,
you know, offer these patients treatments to get all the
get this disease under control and hopefully get them back

(21:15):
to normal quality of life. Because unfortunately, often when patients
present this, this disease, they can be unwell with the
symptoms of anemia. They can have the problems with the
kidney failure. Bony fractures, as you can imagine, are extremely painful.
People can have them throughout their body. So actually when
I first meet a patient with this disease, they're often
a really tricky sort of situation. And, you know, I

(21:37):
think patients, you know, once they're under our care, we
can quickly work on getting the disease under control, getting
the pain under control and getting them back to a
normal quality of life. But unfortunately, as I said, for now,
we believe that a majority of patients are not cured.
So even though we do have these very good frontline treatments,
there's the real area of need for these patients is

(21:59):
what to do when those patients relapse or they start
having problems with their disease again, hopefully many years down
the track from when I first diagnosed them, knows them. But,
you know, in fact, some, you know, a fraction of
patients can run into trouble sooner rather than later, unfortunately.

S1 (22:15):
And there's some news on that front now.

S4 (22:17):
Yeah. So what we're talking about today, there's been some
quite exciting news in Australia. So the TGA, which has
a regulatory body, has approved a certain combination chemotherapy with
a very novel new agent. So it's a novel new
agent that many of my colleagues have been using in
clinical trials for many years to try and determine how

(22:38):
whether that's superior to the standard treatments in Australia. And
in fact, this new combination therapy has proven to be
very successful in clinical trials. It's actually doubled the time
of patients living without their disease progressing compared to the
standard of care. And I guess to put time on that,
it's actually improved the standard, the standard remission period. Once

(23:02):
a patient's relapsed is just over 12 months. And with
the new combination, patients have approximately three years of freedom
from their disease.

S1 (23:11):
Okay. Now, uh, it's been described as a Trojan horse
or Trojan horse approach.

S7 (23:16):
Yeah, I like that description.

S4 (23:18):
Of it because basically, look, this is a very clever treatment.
It has been used in other cancers before. Um, but
what they have is the human will have an antibody
which is part of everyone's immune system. And very clever
Scientists have decided to attach a very small chemotherapy molecule
to that antibody. And so what that means is that

(23:41):
that antibody can home in on the myeloma cell or
the myeloma cancer cell, and it will accept that antibody
into the cell. And it will. The chemotherapy that it's
delivering will kill the cell from within. So it's very clever.
It's like a smart therapy for our patients.

S1 (23:57):
So there's a kind of a bit more targeted approach
is it or.

S7 (24:00):
Yeah it's indeed targeted therapy.

S4 (24:03):
So I mean haematology we've got lots of examples of
targeted therapy. And this is a very specific type that
is the first real targeted therapy in multiple myeloma in
that in that way.

S1 (24:14):
So the news of recent days is that the fact
that it's it's now available, but I guess you have
to have the kind of original treatment first. And then
if or when that sort of ceases to deliver the goods,
as it were, then this other treatment could come into play.

S7 (24:28):
Yeah. So what patients.

S4 (24:29):
Have at this stage is good initial options that lead
to a significant period of remission. But where this one
is coming in is once a patient has relapsed in Australia,
with the standard therapies we've got, actually the outcomes are
somewhat short and we end up having to cycle through many,
many treatments. And so what this offers is really giving

(24:52):
a patient a treatment where they get another extended remission.
So we don't have to worry about treatments for many,
many more years down the track. And as you can imagine, Peter,
what's changing and come in in cancer therapy in Australia
and around the world, we're getting more and more agents
that are effective in this disease. So hopefully pushing things

(25:13):
right far down the track, because then will open up
many more effective options in the future for a patient.

S1 (25:20):
So this targeted approach, how has it kind of delivered?
Is it, uh, you know, intravenously or how do you
do the, the sort of, uh, logistics of that targeted approach.

S4 (25:29):
Yeah. So the patient will have to come into the
treatment center and they will have, um, a combination of
some injections and some tablets for that. So they will
come into the treatment center and there will be a
fixed schedule of how they have to come in. And there's,
you know, initially it's a, a frequent visits up to weekly,
but eventually there will be visits only three every three

(25:51):
weeks or less.

S1 (25:53):
And side effects from the Trojan horse.

S4 (25:55):
Look, overall, there's, um, targeted therapy has been very manageable
where there's sort of they tend to have the similar
sorts of side effects that we do see with our
all chemotherapies that are myeloma patients are given. And there
is a key side effect which patients will have heard about.
It's that they can get some, um, changes to their, um,

(26:18):
vision in the first stages of being on treatment. But
these changes are detected either just from the visiting the haematologist,
but we generally will recommend a patient sees an eye
care specialist during the, you know, during the initial phases
of their therapy and if there are any changes that
this is dealt with by pauses in the medication, reduction

(26:41):
in the dose of the medication and reduction in the
frequency of the medication with those combinations. This is very
effectively dealt with in a vast majority of patients are
able to remain on treatment and continue to get the
benefit from that treatment.

S1 (26:56):
So the vision impact that isn't impacted permanently.

S4 (26:59):
It's not impacted permanently. No.

S1 (27:01):
And the new treatment or the name of the treatment
is I'll let you do the pronunciation.

S4 (27:06):
Thank you. There's a number of ways we can say this.
Often a doctor will refer it to Bella, Bella or Blenrep,
but the actual drug name of this medication is Belantamab. Mafodotin.

S1 (27:18):
Well done, well done. I won't even try and repeat that.

S4 (27:21):
Thanks very.

S1 (27:22):
Much. And I'm assuming, obviously a lot of hematologists would
be across this sort of information and you kind of
keep up to date with what's available and when and
you know, when that could be applicable.

S4 (27:32):
Yeah. So look, I mean, the myeloma is a specialist disease.
So a majority of patients in Australia are looked after by, um,
people who are very experienced with the management of myeloma.
And many hospitals will have people who only look after
multiple myeloma. I'm almost there. I'm not quite I do
look after other patients, but, you know, these, um, the
hematologists are very, I guess, an academic type of specialist.

(27:57):
So all hematologists are very across the literature. But but,
you know, these have been exciting new changes and these
are the sort of changes that are hematologists are dying
to go to the conferences to find out and just
to find out new ways we can treat our patients
and effective treatments for our patients.

S1 (28:14):
Alright. We'll put the names of those drugs are both
the common name and the name that you so cleverly
pronounced up with our show notes, so people can go
there if they've missed it or indeed, obviously always call
us at the radio station. And it's been tremendous talking
to you. Thank you so, so much. We wish you well,
and hopefully it's a bit of extra good news for
people at this time of the year as well.

S4 (28:34):
Brilliant. Thanks, Peter. I appreciate your interest in this, and
I'm looking forward to our patients being able to get
the benefit of this new agent.

S1 (28:41):
Well, hopefully we might be able to speak to again
in the future.

S4 (28:43):
Brilliant. Okay.

S1 (28:44):
That's from Liverpool Hospital haematologist, one of the leading haematologist,
doctor Adam Bride.

S8 (28:52):
Hi, this is Pam Mitchell with a little bit of
my ho ho ho as we make our way further
into Ward Christmas. All that time of the year where
we forgot to get organized and all of a sudden
it's here. Just wishing everyone on 1197 peace, love, joy
with your loved ones. Let's hope for a year ahead

(29:12):
that has a lot of joy and celebration and love
between us. Happy festive season everyone!

S1 (29:25):
Recently we've had Perinatal Mental Health Awareness Week. Let's chat
to someone who I'm sure can talk very well about it.
My family. My family. Lovely to meet you and thank
you for your time.

S9 (29:35):
Absolute pleasure to chat about this very important cause.

S1 (29:38):
Tell us about your situation. You had triplets. Now, I
guess when you get that sort of news, a lot
of things run through your mind.

S9 (29:44):
It is, you know, you can say, you know, the
whole world can flash before you. And it absolutely did.
But the first thought is just panic. It really is.
You've got a thousand questions. It's just so overwhelming. And
in my case, multiples don't run in the family. So
they're classed as spontaneous natural triplets. And I'm still coming
to terms with it, to be honest.

S1 (30:05):
When did you find out in your pregnancy? When was
the news delivered?

S9 (30:08):
So I had actually had one son who was six,
and the children were born. So I had experienced the
pregnancy before and I felt symptoms very, very early on.
And I remember saying to my husband, something's a little
bit different. I feel really, really, really pregnant. I can
have this enormous amount of symptoms. I found out very,

(30:29):
very early on, we found out about the 7 or
8 week mark, and I was you'll never forget the
moment where the sonographer says, I'm just gonna step out
of the room for a moment. I'm going to grab
my colleague and have a chat with you. And I
automatically sat up and said, look, if there's a problem
and you can't see a heartbeat, just let me know.
Don't walk out of the room. She said, no, no, this.

(30:50):
There's three heartbeats. It's triplets.

S1 (30:52):
Oh, gosh. And as you said, Jasmine.

S9 (30:57):
Well, you didn't faint, but there was a very strong
grip at the end of the bed.

S1 (31:03):
Yeah. I guess all the things that flashed through your mind.
I mean, we're having a bit of fun. Sorry. I'm
having a bit of fun, which is probably very, uh,
unempathetic of me. But you did go through some challenging
times leading up to the birth.

S9 (31:14):
Absolutely. And I think technology as well played such a
huge part in that I instantly would start like googling
things and listening to podcasts and delving into like Google
Doctor and found myself typing in questions like what is
the survival rate? What's the impact on the body? Do
triplets survive? And it's really taxing and it's very stressful.

(31:36):
And I really had to get to a point where
I started to protect myself and really just keep calm
and happy and healthy and keep going. But the stress
factor from the beginning was very, very high. And we
also had a young son to think about. He was six,
and I remember at the time that they were doing
a kindergarten, like they were planting sunflowers and seeing which

(31:57):
sunflowers would grow, and if they all grew or if
they didn't, and how that process happened. And we were
very much taking that approach with George to just saying,
you know, we have some really exciting news, but we're
just going to keep going along and seeing what happens
at the other end because we were so unsure.

S1 (32:14):
Great metaphor, isn't it? The universal law might have been
speaking in more ways than one.

S9 (32:19):
Absolutely. So it was perfect timing that George was doing
that because it kept us calm, too. And we're very
conscious of little ears. So we just really tried to
not stress and protect ourselves.

S1 (32:29):
What about helping you through? My family, apart from obviously
yourself and your husband and trying to keep calm, what
about in terms of sort of outside help, if I
could call it that?

S9 (32:37):
I never thought I would be someone that would actively
seek help, and I'm so grateful that I did because
it didn't just end up helping me. It helped my
husband and my son and our entire household. And I
sometimes have a giggle thinking about the pregnant woman with triplets, thinking, oh,
it'll be fine, I can manage with this. I'll have
systems in place and schedules and it'll all work because

(32:58):
I'd been a mother before, but the reality was entirely
different and nothing prepared you. For once the baby arrived.
And that journey with Nick and my recovery, and I
was very lucky to be blessed, to be recommended that
I reach out to an organisation called mum for mum,
based in Sydney, and they partner you with a mother
that will come in and chat with you in that

(33:19):
last month of pregnancy and up to 12 months postpartum.
And that experience has really nurtured me to be able
to honestly label experiences that I was going through stress
and having panic attacks and being overstimulated and exhausted because
mums have all had that lived experience and it was
just so wonderful the support of that organisation to come

(33:43):
to my house and sit with me and talk me
through my feelings and advocate for me, and it was
a support. It was fantastic.

S1 (33:50):
But then we said at the beginning, one of the
things you thought of, you know, one of the things
you looked up was the impact on you, and your
body can ask about that. How different is it to
one birth or twins?

S9 (34:00):
It is really taxing and everybody's experience is so different.
So for me, it was the sheer size that I became.
I was very, very lucky to be able to carry
the girls. So I ended up having three girls to
34 weeks and two days gestation, and they were born
by elected cesarean 60s apart. But I had gestational diabetes.

(34:25):
I was absolutely. The sheer weight was hurting and impacting
my back and my knees. I was reliant on a
lot of insulin, and I had incredible support of the
fetal medicine department at the Royal Hospital for women, and
it was a lot to go through, and it's still
a lot to go through. I'm like, I'm not the
same person. I've been through such a I will use

(34:45):
the word traumatic. I've been through such a traumatic experience,
and it's a lot to kind of get to know
myself again after being through this. I never get a
moment to think about myself because I have four children
and three two year olds at once is a lot
to handle, though. You don't get to have the recovery
that you would with one, which plays a stressful part

(35:06):
in that as well. But they're all very beautiful and
I've just got to keep calm and carry on.

S1 (35:11):
Well, I guess sleep is important anytime. But, you know,
in this sort of instance, it is. And of course,
you're probably deprived of it. Well, maybe three times over
in a sense, or maybe four times over or five
times over, maybe, depending on how helpful your husband is
as well.

S9 (35:24):
Yes, we try not to mention that word in our house,
because we don't know when we'll ever get any of it.
And that's very challenging in itself, but my husband and
I have honest conversations where we would just be like,
I have only I think my battery's probably running on
about 50% today. And he'll be like, okay, I'm probably
on a 75. I'm going to do a little bit
of extra today, take it off of you. And we
obviously have our son, who's eight now, and he's dealing

(35:47):
with three toddlers that just idolize him, but it drives
him wild because they want everything he touches that we
just say, look, we're all a cog in a clock
and we all just have to turn together and then
it'll all work out. It's only for a period of time,
and then this is going to be like a really
lovely little game that our little family is, but we're
still very much going through a lot of challenges and

(36:09):
a lot of panic.

S1 (36:10):
You talked about mum for mum and the wonderful support
they've been, which is great. What about in terms of,
I guess more broadly, the medical system I guess. You know,
like triplets aren't very common and the sort of issues
and challenges maybe a lot of doctors or medical staff
don't see them very often. So do you get empathy?

S9 (36:26):
I absolutely do. I mean, my care was overseen by
the foetal medicine department at the Royal Hospital for women,
who were world class and so kind and nurturing. They
would keep me so supported that I had completely shifted
the mindset that I had originally, where I would Google things.
They would say, don't. We are the people who know

(36:48):
this and will tell you if there's something that you
need to worry about. Everything's looking perfectly wonderful and healthy
and we're very proud of you. Keep going along. And
as a result, I was able to have these three
healthy babies who really in neonatal intensive care, only really
needed that for a short period of time. And then
just the special care nursery to just get a little

(37:08):
bit more bigger and breathing and feeding and the control.
And then they were home with us. But obviously they
deal with a lot of triplets at their specialty. So
I wasn't much of a like a pregnancy celebrity there.
But certainly when I had my first appointment back with
my GP, the whole beautiful practice came out and we're like,
we've been copied in on the reports. Oh my goodness, congratulations.

(37:30):
And now postpartum, having a good GP who knows you
and understands the framework of not just yourself but your
household is just priceless. I think there's a lot of
value in having someone that can give care to your
entire family, because they get the whole picture.

S1 (37:48):
The great message three two year olds and eight year
old George are the three triplets differ from each other,
or how different are they from each other?

S9 (37:55):
It's very interesting. So two of the girls are a
split embryo. So they are, we believe, identical. Whether or
not they are or not, we can't tell them apart.
And then one of the girls is very, very much
like how my son George was when he was little.
So they're all very connected, but very different personality types. Ophelia,

(38:15):
known as triplet one. She was born first. She's the
one that's like my son. And they have a kinship
very connected. And the other two, Ivy and Violet, they're
as thick as thieves. They have their own language. They
do everything at the same time. And they're only just now,
at two and a half, starting to connect together as
a three, but very, very different personalities.

S1 (38:36):
And we thank you very much for speaking to me.
I know you've got plenty on your plate. That's probably
an understatement of the year. We'll put the details of
mum for mum on our show notes so people can
go there to get more information about them, but we
wish you and your family well. It sounds like it's
still going to be busy for a long time to come,
but as you said, you're going to go into a
wonderful family. Thank you for giving us just a little
snapshot today. It's been really enjoyable and we wish all

(38:59):
of you well.

S9 (39:00):
Oh, thank you so much and thank you for sharing
mum for mum. They're an incredible organization and I recommend
that everyone familiarize themselves with that or if they're in
a position to give. I couldn't think of a much
more incredible cause than that. Thank you for your time.

S1 (39:14):
That's my family. So Stokowski, who talked to us about
mum for mum, also about Perinatal Mental Health Week, a
lovely story, but also a very powerful message and great
of my family to join us for the program.

S10 (39:29):
You're in elite company listening to Lesley here on business Radio,
radio via radio, digital, VA radio and through the TuneIn
radio app.

S1 (39:54):
Right about this time each month, we catch up with
the health commentator David Mitchell. I think actually, David, you're
concluding your 22nd year with us. So well done.

S11 (40:04):
It's the 22nd. What can you do? I thought when
you said 22nd, that might have been how long you
were going to let me speak for today.

S1 (40:14):
That'll be novel.

S11 (40:15):
Yeah, indeed.

S1 (40:17):
Actually, without getting too much off the topic, I mean,
that's a lot of ways that people consume information these
days is through the 22nd grabs. Anyway, back to the
job in hand. Obviously, we're coming into that season where
perhaps a little bit of over involving goes on. You've
got a bit of an idea of things we can
do to maybe minimise the the after effects.

S11 (40:37):
Yes, indeed. In fact, way back when my radio career started,
which would have been 32 years, that every Christmas they
would ask me or every New Year's Eve they would
ask me, did I have any ideas about how to
avoid the hangovers? And at the first one was, well,
don't take the top off the bottle. But seriously, there

(41:02):
is always. The thing about Christmas and New Years is
that there's that conviviality that they're wanting to share with
other people, and just to to let your hair down
a bit and just relax a bit and suddenly start
to think about just the people around you rather than
just yourself. And when that happens, we we're always tempted

(41:22):
to have just that little bit extra. We have that
little bit extra. Our bodies often just can't do it.
They're just not used to it. They're not practiced with it.
So what we're talking about today really is what can
I do to avoid a hangover or the nasty effects.
Everyone that it does have some drink at some stage

(41:43):
in their life have felt themselves to have. Oh no,
I did overdo it last night and I've got the
headache and I'm ravenously hungry and I'm thirsty and I'm
grumpy and I can't think, can't think straight. And no
one I wonder after yesterday when I wanted to be
with everyone. Now no one wants to be with me.
So these are all common parts and pieces. It really

(42:06):
comes back to the fact that alcohol actually is. Although
it's good for you, it also is a toxin in
inverted commas that if you go over a certain level,
it has toxic effects on the body. And the things
that it does is that alcohol gets rid of or
burns up all your vitamin B12 and particularly B12. B12,

(42:31):
as we've often mentioned in our shows, is one of
the major chemicals that's used to make the brain chemicals,
particularly serotonin, which is the one that makes us happy
and makes us. Stops it from getting depressed. And that
converts into melatonin, which is the sleep chemical that the
body needs. And alcohol wipes out the B12. Therefore, you're

(42:54):
grumpy and irritable and you're you sluggish and you so
on because you've removed all the serotonin. Secondly, the toxicity
of the of the, uh, alcohol evolves from the fact
that the liver has trouble in keeping up in getting
rid of it quick enough. And so that also makes

(43:15):
us grumpy. It makes us sluggish. We even can put
on a couple of ounces or, uh, not heroes, but
certainly a couple of grams of weight, which is all
part of the fluid that that the body can't get
rid of at the same time. And if we look
at it on a chemical basis, this is what today

(43:36):
is all about, is that there are things that you
can actually do other than not drinking, that can allow
you to drink and feel good the next day. And
so they they evolve around the fact that if we
take a Berocca, which has lots of B12 in it.

(43:56):
If we take a milk thistle or an NAC milk
thistle and n-acetyl-cysteine, that helps the liver get rid of toxins,
including alcohol, much quicker. And they're readily available at health
food stores and they're very safe and don't have any

(44:17):
side effects. And we also need to realize that as
part of the toxicity of the alcohol is also inflammatory
or irritative, which is why we in the next day
are a bit irritable and and get headaches and aches
and pains. We take a we take a Voltaren. Voltaren
is one of those tablets that you take if you've

(44:39):
got arthritis or generalized aches and pains or sometimes even fevers.
But it actually turns off the inflammatory signals in the
in the body. So we've already got three things here
that we can very safely and easily and economically before
we go out to our festivities, whether it's Christmas drinks

(45:01):
or Christmas Day or it's New Year's Eve, or at
this special barbecue between Christmas and New Year, we have
to take these these three things before it happens. And
hopefully if we leave them, leave them out on the
sink when we get home, we'll room to take them again.

(45:22):
And possibly take them again the next morning. It is
as simple as that. We by by and I got
obviously some water. I need to wash the pills down
but water to help and the dehydration effect that alcohol
has on you. So the I that concept of if
you've got two glasses in your hand, one's got water

(45:44):
in and one's got the alcohol, that's, that's the way
to go. It's sort of a glass for a glass
as best as you can to keep the body hydrated
and also help flush things out and help those those
three tablets do good, good things for you. So it's
not a it's not a bad way of doing it.
It's simple and it's safe and it's easy. Berocca Voltaren

(46:07):
and Milk Thistle or NAC if you really get scientific,
it's my favourite. There's an even better version or an
even better effect than milk thistle in clearing the toxins.
They're also useful at other times during the year, but
those things alone a bit of practice. I found that

(46:28):
they do work, and I think if I could just
add one more thing. Be careful about how much you
mix or what types of alcohol you mix, because there
is that. The wonderful old, old Scottish adage that you
didn't mix the grape in the grain, which which means
you don't. You don't have Scotch or grain alcohol, which

(46:52):
could be vodka or could even be gin. You don't
have that plus one. You have one or the other.
If you mix the two together, you're almost guaranteed to
have even more of a hangover, or more of a headache,
or more of a grumpiness the next day. So try
and try and stay to one side or the other.
And we have to also think that beer, even if

(47:14):
you push the alcohol, is getting lower and lower and
lower in beer, but it too comes from the grain.
So don't add too much wine with with the beer,
so be more selective. It's quite easy to do then
that you will actually wake up the next morning feeling
really good. Not a bad, not a bad recipe.

S1 (47:35):
Alright, just on waking up. What about sleep? Because that
can be pretty important to recover from as well. Or
to use sleep to recover?

S11 (47:43):
Yes and no. Um, what it is, is you're actually
avoiding the the cognition or the the recognition or the
the noticing that, oh no, I did it, did I
did it all my fault type stuff. Um, yeah. It's
a way of avoiding the unpleasant side effects is to
sleep through them, honestly. But it's still it's probably part

(48:07):
of that sluggishness that goes on with with the toxicity
of the alcohol. So I don't know that you rejoice
from it. If you do get the habit, then at
least you will not be as bad as you think
you are because you were asleep and don't notice it.
That's probably it. So if you had a chance you

(48:27):
will sleep in. But. But it is more of a
reflection of the toxicity on the brain. Slow it down
rather than the ER. So if you can well it's
going to be noticing some of the side effects.

S1 (48:41):
David. Fantastic. I should say of course, that uh, please,
if you're going to have a drink, Drink responsibly. We
have to put that in. So please do that. David,
as I said, you've completed 22 years. This has been fantastic.
We have a laugh. But also you cover some very
serious topics and in a very unique way. And also
you give us ways of thinking about things in a
preventative nature. And that's very, very important as well, because

(49:03):
I guess it's all well and good to get yourself
fixed up. But if we can get ourselves a bit
healthier before we get crook, then that's going to be
a good thing as well.

S11 (49:11):
Indeed. It's that preventative. Yeah. So so it's a knowledge
of of what is happening and, and a knowledge of
what you might be able to do to avoid it
or to ameliorate it or lessen it, is really what
it's all about. So you can still lead a good life.
It's not thinking that I'm a wowser and the winger

(49:31):
all at the same time. It's about being practical, so
go and do it.

S1 (49:36):
Thank you for that. Now, I spoke to Pam before, uh,
you coming to her and she said you got to
do it again next year, so that's good enough for me.

S11 (49:43):
She He must be obeyed.

S1 (49:47):
I see you and Pam. We'll catch up with Pam
in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your wonderful contributions.
Have a great Christmas and all the best for the
New year, and we'll catch up in 2026.

S11 (49:57):
Terrific. Yes, I love speaking with you and I love
speaking with your people. So it's been fantastic for me.
It keeps me honest is one way of thinking about it.

S1 (50:08):
That's the very honest. David Mitchell joins the first week
of each month, and it's a topic you'd like David
to cover. Get in touch with us and we'll get
David to research it for us. Our good old Polly,

(50:35):
she's been there every month for us. When Belinda Hill
is on the line, somehow Polly knows and puts the
kettle on. Belinda Hedley Hellyer from brew Bob. Linda, the
brew that is true. Brew Bob. Linda. Oh, Linda. Great
to catch up again.

S12 (50:48):
Hi, Peter. Lovely to chat again.

S1 (50:50):
Now, we've had some great chats to you throughout the
year regarding drinking tea and the things we can do
with tea. You're going to do something a little bit different,
particularly with a bit of a Christmas feel to it.

S12 (50:59):
Yes. Well, I don't know. There's some teas that often
incorporate spices that are quite Christmassy, so it's just a
good opportunity to think outside the box and maybe do
a bit of cooking or baking or dessert making, using
some of these teas with that kind of spice element.

S1 (51:16):
Okay. What teas are you particularly thinking of?

S12 (51:18):
Well, we've talked before a little bit about a style
of tea called masala chai, which originates in India, but
it's traditionally a black tea that has like then a
spice mix. And usually those spices are things like cinnamon, ginger, cardamom,
star anise, clove, allspice, black pepper, things like that. So

(51:39):
these kind of cinnamon clove, you know, nutmeg spices kind
of lend themselves to that Christmas vibe. You know, if
you think about like pudding or.

S1 (51:50):
Yeah.

S12 (51:51):
Fruit mince pies, but also things like gingerbread and cakes
and things like that. So I've always loved to cook
with masala chai tea blends.

S1 (52:00):
I remember you telling us about people use the word
chai in the wrong context, don't they? I mean, you
put it right today, but I remember you telling us
about that.

S12 (52:08):
That's right. Because the Hindi word for tea is chai.
So in India, when you ask for a cup of tea,
you would say, I'd like a cup of chai. To
make it specific, we need to say masala chai. And
that's what differentiates this particular spice tea, because masala means spice.
So spice tea, masala chai.

S1 (52:29):
If we see chai tea it'll be chai chai or
TT wouldn't it? Which wouldn't really make any sense.

S12 (52:35):
That's exactly right. But you know those, you know cultural
differences that. Yeah, we can learn about.

S1 (52:41):
Well, it's good to get things right as well. So
what are some examples? You've given us a little bit
of an idea. What are some examples of the things
that we can cook that might include some of these.

S12 (52:49):
So some of the things that I've made before and
I do have like a journal section of my website
where some of these recipes are captured.

S1 (52:57):
Okay.

S12 (52:58):
If anybody ever, you know, likes the sound of something
that I mentioned and they'd like to give it a
go themselves on The Brood by Belinda website, in the
journal section you can find different recipes. So some of
the things that I've made with chai masala chai are
choucas chai chocolate cake. So infusing the chai through the

(53:18):
chocolate cake batter, it's beautiful. It just adds this lovely
richness and that little bit of spice cookies like madeleines
or gingerbread. Just adding some of that masala chai tea
through the batter again can just bring that lovely spice.
I've made a date and walnut loaf puddings. But something

(53:38):
as we get sort of more to the hot weather,
something that I'm going to do again is I once
made ice cream with masala chai and it was so delicious.
So yeah, it's quite easy if you sort of familiar
with making ice cream or never done it before, it's
actually pretty straightforward using milk and sugar and cream and

(54:01):
vanilla extract, but then adding in some masala chai tea
can make just a beautiful twist on ice cream. So
that's something I'm going to be doing again very soon
as we get closer to Christmas.

S1 (54:13):
What would you say, particularly with the warmer weather coming
up and I'm sure it will come. We've had a
couple of days during the week, so I'm sure there'll
be more in the next couple of months that that'll
be lovely. And it's kind of got a nice, refreshing
taste to it and a bit sort of different than,
you know, just sort of a common, boring vanilla flavored
ice cream, isn't it?

S12 (54:28):
Yeah, I would say it just adds like richness, a
little spice. So yeah, just such a beautiful addition to
any cooking. And the great thing is that these spices
are also really healthy and really good for you. You know,
provided that the tea that you're using is not laden
with sugar and artificial flavors and things like that. If
you're using like a good natural tea blend without any

(54:51):
sugars or chemical flavors, then these types of tea used
in cooking are really good for you. Um, these spices
tend to have really great health benefits in terms of
aiding with digestion, warming the system, which you know, is
maybe not what you want to do in summer, but
great in winter. But yeah, lots of health benefits.

S1 (55:11):
Of course, a lot of people in the old days,
but I know growing a lot of particularly English people
used to say, well, you know, on a hot day,
have a hot cup of tea because then you sweat
a bit and then the perspiration and the sort of
cool breeze cooling you down from the perspiration actually means
that the hot cup of tea actually can make you
feel cooler.

S12 (55:28):
Yeah, there are actually certain types of tea that are
cooling to the system and certain ingredients that we use
in tea blending that are cooling to the system. So yeah,
I guess that's kind of moving into some of that
Chinese medicine philosophy or philosophy. For example, white tea is
cooling to the system, so drinking white tea on a

(55:49):
hot day is actually cooling.

S1 (55:51):
Kind of makes sense in a way, doesn't it? Because
the black tea has got a bit more guts to it,
if I can put it crudely. Whereas the lighter teas,
you know, maybe aren't going to be quite as hot,
so that cooling effect might come into play.

S12 (56:02):
Absolutely. So all different teas, all different benefits.

S1 (56:05):
I know people would have heard the program over the years,
would have heard me talk about gender. My kind of
resident taxi driver who's from India and I when you
gave me a bit of a heads up about this
here in the week, I asked him about cinnamon and
also things like ginger, etc. he said they can also
have quite a we're not medical experts so please consult
your medical professional. But they also can have quite a

(56:26):
good effect on um, sort of insulin levels as well,
or regulating sugar, which is an interesting thing as well.
Things like cardamon and also cinnamon can have that sort
of regulating sugar effect, which I guess at Christmas time
can be very, very important and effective because we perhaps
do overdo it as far as the sweet stuff goes. Well,
I do anyway.

S12 (56:44):
That's right. We. It is a time of indulgence. So
anything that we can, you know, do to add into
our daily routine that's going to support some of those
health concerns is a great idea, especially when you're dealing
with really pure, healthy types of loose leaf tea.

S1 (57:00):
And that's the important point you make. You know, particularly
if it can be sort of organically grown, organically certified,
and as I say, be loose leaf rather than highly
manufactured stuff. That's probably got a lot of artificial colorings
and additives in it, then you're probably making a very
wise choice might be a little bit more expensive, but
you're probably going to use a bit less and maybe
even enjoy it a bit more.

S12 (57:19):
Yeah, and often you can get a good couple of
brews out of each teaspoon of leaves when you're investing
in that higher quality leaf. So yeah, I'm all for
loose leaf. It really is the best choice in terms
of your health and our environment. And also it does
actually go quite a long way.

S1 (57:36):
Now, Belinda, we learnt from you early on that your
grandparents were great tea drinkers and they kind of influenced
you to set yourself up on this career path. And
I remember last year you told us about Nana Nola,
who was probably the greatest tea drinker that we know of,
and she turned 100 last year, Christmas Day. And Nana
Nola is still going strong.

S12 (57:55):
She is. So, you know, she's what, 2020 odd days
away for 101 birthday. So yes, she's still having her
six cups of tea a day and, um, still sharp.
So sharp.

S1 (58:08):
All right. Well, it's a great message in that. So
it's a good example, a good thing to be employing
us all to do just a little bit more, drink
the good quality cups of tea. But if people want
to find out more, they can visit your website. And
as you say also there are recipes there. So if
people maybe with just under three weeks or so before Christmas,
if they'd like to do some preparation, that could be
a good point because I guess you also give the

(58:29):
quantities of the various ingredients that that can make a
bit of a difference as well.

S12 (58:33):
Yeah, absolutely. So all of the recipes that I do
currently have online are very thorough and detailed. I noticed
that I don't have the chai ice cream recipe up
there yet, but I'm going to do that because it
really is amazing. So I'll make sure in the next
few days that I get that added as well.

S1 (58:52):
Terrific. Well, thank you for that and thank you for
your wonderful contributions. Throughout the year. We've talked about all
sorts of things. And I do remember obviously just recently
your trip to South Korea, and you're telling us about
that and sharing some of the memories and highlights. So
thank you for that. And we're kind of hoping. Well,
in fact, we're more than kind of hoping. We're really
hoping that you'll be back with us in February next year.

S12 (59:11):
I would love to thank you for having me for
the whole year, Peter, and it's lovely to connect with
your listeners.

S1 (59:17):
Terrific. Now people want to find out more. What's your website?
And you've also got a phone number that people can
call too.

S12 (59:22):
That's right. So brewed by Belinda Comm A is where
you'll find all of the information online about Brood by Belinda.
And then my number 0419 839 702.

S1 (59:36):
What you need to know and all the hell is
a happy Christmas and all the best for the New Year.
Thanks for being with us.

S12 (59:42):
Thanks, Peter. And to you.

S1 (59:43):
That's Hayley there from Brew by Belinda. The brew that
is true brew by Belinda. Com.au if you have any
details or if you have any difficulties tracking those details,
you can go to our show notes. Or you can
always give us a call here at the radio station.

S13 (59:58):
Hi, I'm Sally Raphael, one of the executive managers at
See Differently. Just wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas and
a happy and healthy New Year from all of the
team here at See Differently. We look forward to working
with everyone in the New Year.

S14 (01:00:14):
Let's talk about a topic that we probably don't speak
enough about. And that's the topic of incontinence.

S1 (01:00:19):
Let's speak to a leading colorectal surgeon, Professor Abraham Jacob. Abe,
if I may call you that. Thanks so much for
your time and welcome.

S15 (01:00:26):
Thanks, Peter. Happy to be called Abe. Hello from Perth,
Western Australia.

S1 (01:00:31):
There is a bit of stigma attached to incontinence. I
guess we can all kind of understand why, but that
probably doesn't help you if you've got the condition or
seeking help.

S15 (01:00:40):
Yes, that's right. I think bowel and bladder issues sometimes
very difficult to discuss openly and in Australia itself. 1
in 4 people will be suffering from some kind of incontinence.
And it's something that's not very popular to discuss. So
that probably equates to about 7 million people in our

(01:01:00):
country that have from the age of 15 on, that
may have some kind of incontinence, and it's not really
talked about. Of course, it's an embarrassing topic to talk about,
but there's certainly lots of help that we can offer.

S1 (01:01:13):
It's one of the problems or one of the risk factors,
if you like, just the simple thing that we all
kind of want to do. We all want to get older.
We all want to age.

S15 (01:01:21):
Yeah. Look, I think the most common problem with age,
especially for a lot of women. Women can develop a
lot of pelvic floor disorders that result in both bladder
and bowel problems, and that can contribute to social distancing
and certainly not wanting to participate in social activities going out.

(01:01:42):
And certainly it's not something that people like to discuss
openly with even close friends and family. And it's just
generally the stigma that's associated with talking about bowel problems.
And sometimes local doctors as well may not ask individuals
whether they have problems, but it probably should be part
of the conversation so that there's awareness that this is

(01:02:02):
a relatively common problem. And we do have options to
improve people's quality of life and allow them to do
things that they otherwise would may not have thought possible.

S1 (01:02:12):
We'll come to those probable solutions in a second. I
guess one of the things is that if people, as
you said, are sort of socially isolated or remove themselves
from society. I mean, that can lead to all sorts
of other issues in terms of loneliness, mental health issues
and so on and so forth. So it's not just
the incontinence issue, but sort of associated problems that go
with it. If people don't speak up about it or

(01:02:33):
seek some support or help.

S15 (01:02:35):
Yeah. That's right. I mean, when your bowels aren't working
as they should be or what we expect it to be,
it creates a lot of anxiety. And that fear of
not being clean makes it difficult to participate in the
things that we take for granted. For example, going out,
having lunch or dinner with friends, or even simple things
like going out to do things like shopping. And a

(01:02:55):
lot of these individuals would carefully plan their day, make
sure they know where the toilets are so that they
don't get caught short. And sometimes it means taking extra
supplies in case they do have an accident when they're out.
So having both clothes or things to be able to
clean themselves so it can be very socially distancing problem.

S1 (01:03:15):
As you said, you're a leading a colorectal surgeon. What
about in that area then I guess, would it be
fair to say that that's probably down the list as
far as things that people want to try? I mean,
you try a few other things before you go to surgery.

S15 (01:03:29):
So initially it's really finding out what the problem is.
And people can have all sorts of problems that can
cause problems with bowel control. And that can range from
having problems with your hemorrhoids, which sometimes they can prolapse
out and all the way to something as bad as
having bowel cancer because it can cause changes in your
bowel habit. So all of these issues are certainly it's

(01:03:52):
something that we want to know about. We don't think
it's embarrassing. We like talking about it as colorectal surgeons.
And we like people to have good bowel function. And
having good bowel function actually leads to a very good
quality of life. And certainly a lot of people that
have bowel issues do suffer from mental health disorders because, again,
it affects their ability to socialize and that can lead

(01:04:15):
to depression and other problems. So I'm not saying that
it's necessarily linked, but certainly does contribute to mental health problems.

S1 (01:04:23):
I guess you're doing this all day, talking about all day.
So you got to get comfortable talking about it because
it's part of your day routine, if I could put
it that way.

S15 (01:04:31):
That's right. And if I can say, look, I enjoy
making sure that people have a good pool. It's an
important thing.

S1 (01:04:37):
Okay. Anyone who might be having anything to eat at
the moment, we are an aging population. I'm just thinking
that probably the progress in terms of the efficacy and
the recovery, the efficiency of surgery that probably improved over
the years because it's an aging population issue. There's probably
more and more people potentially that might be undergoing this
sort of treatment.

S15 (01:04:58):
That's right. So in Australia we have lots of options
for managing pelvic floor disorders, and certainly for both men
and women. And so men can also have pelvic floor
disorders certainly related to sometimes having surgery and sometimes having
prostate surgery because prostate cancer is relatively common in our society,
and we have simple innovations that can help improve quality

(01:05:22):
of life. And so one of these innovations we've probably
had for about 20 years, but it's sometimes hard to
know that these kind of things are available because it's
not really commonly talked about. And so one of those
procedures is sacral neuromodulation, which is essentially a day case
type procedure. And the concept behind this is to modulate
the nerves that supply the pelvic floor. And it can

(01:05:45):
help regulate both bladder and bowel control. And it's been
proven to be one of the most effective ways to
improve continence, both for bowel and bladder. Again, we do
several assessments to work out what the exact problems are.
Sometimes there are mechanical problems that can be repaired with
minimally invasive surgery. And then this is another option that

(01:06:06):
improves a lot of people's quality of life. With a
simple intervention.

S1 (01:06:11):
Like that a bit further.

S15 (01:06:12):
The second Neuromodulation.

S1 (01:06:14):
Yeah.

S15 (01:06:14):
So that's similar technology to what people have or pacemakers
for their heart. And essentially a lead that's placed into
the main nerve that supplies the pelvic floor. And it
regulates the signals that come from the brain to the
pelvic floor. Initially, the understanding was a bit vague as
to how it works, and we thought that it was

(01:06:36):
more of a stimulation to help the sphincter muscles work
better to close the anus, but actually it's more sophisticated
than that. And actually it modulates the brain and bowel
function and helps regulate the signals that come down into
the bowel to help regulate the bowel better. And it
seems to be really effective at improving people's continence and

(01:06:58):
allowing people to go back to activities that they thought
not possible with their continence issues.

S1 (01:07:04):
That's fantastic. Is it a kind of a one and
done a once you do it once, it's there for
a long time, if not forever.

S15 (01:07:10):
That's right. So the technology has improved, especially in the
last 3 or 4 years. So initially the implants that
were inserted needed to be replaced within five years. So
the new implants can last up to 15 years without
having to be replaced. They communicate via Bluetooth to a

(01:07:32):
device similar to our smartphones, and you can regulate the
settings depending on particular needs, and we can stimulate the
different nerves that are supplied by that nerve root. It's
MRI compatible, so if you had to have an MRI,
they certainly can. The image that sometimes people worry about
if they have an implant like this, can they have

(01:07:53):
certain imaging. But it's very safe and a very simple intervention.
The procedure itself I've been doing this procedure for the
last almost ten years and the technology has got better.
It's very simple to insert and usually it takes about
ten minutes. We tend to do it in the operating
theatre because it's an implant, so we want it to
be put in sterile, but it can be done under

(01:08:13):
local anaesthetic.

S1 (01:08:14):
And I guess the recovery from things like that are
much better than open surgery, if I could put it
that way.

S15 (01:08:19):
That's right. So there's very little impact on individuals. So
generally most people can go straight back to their regular routine.
And when the implant is inserted there's a small incision
that they recover from. But it allows them to go
back to sort of routine activities pretty much straight away.

S1 (01:08:37):
You're in the wonderful city of Perth obviously doing it there.
Is it available in most cities in Australia, do you know?

S15 (01:08:43):
Absolutely. So all capital cities in Australia offer this service
and it's amongst colorectal surgeons. Not all colorectal surgeons provide
this service, but surgeons that offer pelvic health or pelvic
floor education or assessment would generally be part of their
armamentarium to help people with pelvic floor disorders. So yeah,

(01:09:05):
it is available and certainly is a useful tool to
improve people's quality of life and a very simple intervention
which has very little risk. And some people may not
be suitable for this for various reasons. And as you
get older, sometimes it's not suitable. I'm saying when you
get into your late 80s and 90s, but the target

(01:09:26):
population is generally in their early 50s to 70s. But
saying that the youngest person that I've put an implant
on is in their teens. So a teenager the oldest
person can implant on is 85. So we tailored treatment
according to people's needs. And we have very fit 80

(01:09:46):
and 90 year olds. So I certainly don't want to
be seen as an ageist. And the quality of life
of some of our older patients is really good. We
have 90 year olds riding bicycles. They should be allowed
to have treatment if it can improve their quality of life.

S1 (01:10:01):
That's a great attitude. I've read a ton, but we
could have chatted for much longer. I've got your details. Obviously,
we might have to get you back because you explain
things so well just before you go. The name of
that technique or that surgery. We'll put that up with
our show notes because I'm sure people will want to know.
It's called.

S15 (01:10:17):
Sacral neuromodulation. And the implant that I use is generally
with Medtronic, which has been used and tried and tested
for over 20 years. So it's a very useful tool
for this problem.

S1 (01:10:30):
Hi. Thanks for tuning into this. Really appreciate it.

S15 (01:10:32):
Thanks a lot, Peter, and thanks for having me.

S1 (01:10:34):
It's Professor Abraham Jacob there. That's fascinating, isn't it? We'll
put those details up with our show notes. If you'd
like to find out more. We'll put the name there.
And also, if you need more details, get in touch
with us and we can try and help you out.

S16 (01:10:46):
On the Eastern Australia Network through your favorite podcast service
on 1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide. You're listening to leisurely.

S1 (01:10:57):
Well, it's always great catching up with Mark cannon, the
CEO for Spinal Life. He's a very forthright expresser of opinions. Mark,
Great to catch up with you again.

S17 (01:11:06):
I'm glad to be here this afternoon, Peter.

S1 (01:11:07):
Now the NDIS, that story that I was going to
say keeps giving but keeps taking. Maybe it's a better
way to put it.

S17 (01:11:13):
Yes. Well, this week there's another story, another classic story
of a failure from the administration of your taxpayer money.
This time I've got a person who can't even go
to the toilet in dignity because they want to make
a $10,000 saving for all these catheters and finding other
quotes that, um, and they've cut $10,000 out. So the
guy and when you have a spinal cord injury, you

(01:11:36):
can't you normally have to use catheters and you can't
use your bowel sometimes either. So what happens is I've
got two particular people, but one actually has had his
catheters cut out. He's been on public transport because he
hasn't had the catheters he needs. This is a classic
case of they're paying for music lessons and art lessons
and everything, but the real people who need it aren't

(01:11:56):
getting it.

S1 (01:11:57):
But someone listening in now would think you're kidding, or
someone's made a mistake somewhere. someone had a misunderstanding.

S17 (01:12:05):
Well, I think one of us would be. Hopefully we're
drinking or smoking something, but we're not. This is an
everyday occurrence of the ndia mal administration and it's your taxpayer.
I think every Australian doesn't mind the NDIS looking after
people with profound disabilities. That's what it was designed for.
Now I've got 720,000 people on there trying to make

(01:12:26):
cutbacks everywhere in the wrong places. And the people it
was designed for aren't getting the funds they need.

S1 (01:12:31):
Is it the issue that they see this as an overrun?
Too much is being spent. We've got to cut back.
But obviously. Well, what are they doing? They're picking and
choosing how and who they cut back on. What sort
of go wrong.

S17 (01:12:44):
Yeah. They shouldn't be. There's a then they go to
the Administrative Review Tribunal and then we go there to
defend the client. Then they hand, they give in because
they've got the evidence. We've got the evidence to show
how wrong they are. And they spend hundreds of thousands
of dollars, if not millions, on legal representation, Presentation on cases.
They can never win because they've made wrong decisions. Rather

(01:13:04):
than be less arrogant and say, we've made a mistake. Look,
what you've got to realise is this is $52 billion
of your taxpayer money. We're saying you could save 10%.
That's $5 billion by just administering it better and efficiently
run the organization like any other organization.

S1 (01:13:23):
Who makes that decision that you know you're not going
to get these, uh, issues that these, uh, costs, if
you like, that would be associated with just living a
dignified life. We're going to take that away from you.
Who makes that decision?

S17 (01:13:37):
Some numpty on the other end of the phone. I
got to tell you, I'm so frustrated because I should
not be having to defend someone, having the dignity to
go to the toilet because the this person other end
of the phone, who, by the way, we've dealt with
a few times the agency and they've lost their paperwork
each time you've got to go through the whole story,
all that stress again. So they're so inefficient. I don't

(01:13:59):
even believe they got like a CRM system that like
when you deal with any other organization, you ring up.
Oh yeah, I've got your file here. Yes, I can
see you talk to them at 4:00 on the 24th.
They don't have that. You gotta go through the whole
story again. It is such maladministration of taxpayers money.

S1 (01:14:16):
When the NDIS was set up, that was kind of
one of the things that was the plus for it,
that you come to this one place, all the services
could be, uh, kind of, uh, you know, shipped out
of this one unit, if you like. And, and you
wouldn't have to be repeating your story over and over again.
That was one of the things that was kind of
founded on.

S17 (01:14:32):
Now you come to the one stop place, they can
waste your taxpayer money, give you stress and anxiety, and
not perform in one area that's supposed to. It's what? Yeah,
it's a one stop shop. Nothing good about it.

S1 (01:14:43):
Like I laughed and I shouldn't because this is a
very serious matter. But I mean, that's part of the problem,
isn't it? The fact that, um, there doesn't seem to
be any empathy or there doesn't seem to be any
kind of getting it, of what people are needing and
the difference that makes the quality of life.

S17 (01:14:56):
I think that minister's got no idea what's going on downstream.
They need to say get get the CEO there and
the board of the Ndia. Hey guys, we've got $50
billion of taxpayers money. We've got a cohort of people
with disabilities who need to help. The Australian people have
voted on that policy. Now go to it and look
after them and you can do that. And for a

(01:15:18):
far less cost than the $52 billion, because I see
so much wastage as a taxpayer. And as soon as
you raise it, this is what they do. Peter and
Bill shorten was the minister previously. The new minister is
doing the same. Oh, we're going to save $40 million
this year on fraud. That's a drop in the ocean
to what's actually been wasted by the maladministration. There's 5

(01:15:38):
billion being wasted. As I say, they try and put
you off and say, we're saving all this fraud money.
So people say, oh, that's bad, but that's a diversion
from the real fact of maladministration to the point of
being corrupt, in my view.

S1 (01:15:51):
Mark, the person that you were referring to, were they
told that we'll kind of go with where to get
these services. That that can't be right.

S17 (01:15:59):
I'll get other quotes. But also they said, why can't
you reuse them? They got no idea. You know, you
can't you can't really do that. And there's a bigger problem.
It'll be a hospital problem then. So we just want
other people on the other side of the phone, have empathy,
have their policies, and make decisions just like that rather

(01:16:21):
than go on and on, then go to a legal tribunal,
then give in, cause all that stress, all that extra
money in legal costs from both sides, it is just ridiculous.
And every time I talk to you, I've got another
story like this. This isn't made up. This is what's
happening every day. I say, so get picked up in
me in in the media monitors. Chalmers Albanese, listen to it.

(01:16:42):
They'll pick that up and hopefully they'll take action because
they need to. I've written to the federal members, to
the federal labor member locally, and I've got crickets. Zero response.

S1 (01:16:52):
Well, why do you think that is? Because they can't
do anything. They won't do anything. They don't know what
to do. They they can't defend it.

S17 (01:16:59):
Don't forget the people running this country have never had
a real job, Peter. They've never had to find wages
every second week. They've never employed people. They've worked for
the unions office or the political office on both sides
of parliament. Right. And they've never had a real job
like you or me. So we need to make sure
that somehow we get through to them. You can't treat
Australian people with disabilities like this. That's 20% of the population.

S1 (01:17:22):
Well, you know, in a situation like this, I kind
of would say, okay, um, what if it was your brother? What?
What if it was your sister? What if it was
your parent? What if it was your child?

S17 (01:17:30):
You always need to put yourself on the other side
of the argument, the other side of the equation. And
what's fair? That's how I've operated for 50 years in business.
Think about, hey, you know, if that was me, what
would I think is fair? And if you deal with
it properly, you deal with it honestly. And people make mistakes.
There's no problem with that. Just admit them. But you
can't have an maladministration of this organisation organization spending $50

(01:17:53):
billion of your money and not getting the results we
all put taxpayer money in for. Into this organization. I
hope your listeners ask their federal member, what are you
doing about to help people with with disabilities and spending
our taxpayer money properly? And I keep hearing these stories
about the same stories that go round and round in circles.
Then 12 months later, it gets sorted out. After all

(01:18:15):
that stress and after all that wasted administration money.

S1 (01:18:17):
Mark, you talked about the impact that can have regarding
hygiene and that infection, and then they end up in hospital.
And we all know the situation about hospital cares, etcetera
and people being there that need to be there. And
people can't get out because they can't get into their home, etcetera.
But I mean, the story is also bigger than that
in terms of, I guess, the impact it has on
their mental health, on their quality of life and and

(01:18:39):
their outlook on life. I mean, this would be a
terrible way to be living.

S17 (01:18:43):
It's stressful for the family members around the person. It's
stressful for the person themselves, and it's not necessary. As
I say, the NDIS has got lots of money. Do
not think it needs more money. It's got plenty of money.
That's the problem. They could have bad administration and cover
it up because there's fields of gold. Really? Of your
taxpayer money. As I say, if you save 10% in administration,

(01:19:06):
that means they deal with the problem once. That would
easily save 10%. That's $5 billion. Now, ever since Rudd
came in, when Rudd was in, that's when we heard
the billions. Before that it was always a bridge got built,
something got done. It was hundreds of millions after it
was billions. Now politicians have said billions will flow off
their tongue like anything. That's your taxpayer money.

S1 (01:19:27):
What now? I mean, what what do you do? I mean,
apart from just sort of hammering and hammering and hammering
and hopefully someone here somewhere, something soon. What? What else
can we do? What else can anyone do?

S17 (01:19:37):
I only hope that someone picks this up right? And says,
you know what? This isn't right. What's going on there?
And that from from the top down from Albo and
from Jim Chalmers and the health minister, the minister say.
I keep hearing that. Counting on the radio. Is this
really happening? And they find out that it is. And
they take action because that's what we need. I just

(01:19:57):
want to make sure that people with disabilities get to
use the program that we've all agreed with and things
that the program, but not waste the money like they
do every day. And there's plenty of them money to
go around for everybody, for the people who need it.
And they stop saying, hey, mate, you can't have a
we in dignity because we're not going to supply the
$10,000 worth of catheters a year. That is disgusting, Mark.

S1 (01:20:20):
I mean, without going too much into it, do the
people on the phone kind of kind of admit that
I didn't get it or I didn't understand it? I mean,
they can't be that callous, can they? I mean, there'd
be a degree of empathy. A number of people with
disabilities actually work for the Ndia. Wouldn't there be some
empathy from that kind of angle?

S17 (01:20:38):
I haven't found them yet. All I find is non-responsive. Non-responsive,
and they start all over again. Maybe they're sick of
being abused by people on end of the phone. I
don't know, because we we find them so unresponsive. And
this isn't just a one off case. This is a
case I'm bringing you today. But I've got two currently.
One can't use his bowels and one can't get the

(01:20:58):
catheters to to urinate. That's two. There's lots of them.
That's just one little organization us to deal with. Two
particular cases at the moment there's lots of and it's
the same. There's no leadership from the top of the
Ndia to get customer service sorted out. So what they
should be doing is any organisation, that's what they call

(01:21:18):
the Pareto Rule 80 over 20. Rule 80% should just
go through the system automatically, get dealt with because there's
no spinal cord error recovery. There is zero cure. So
therefore you're only going to get worse. So when they
want their plan reviews, they should be updated if anything,
and then concentrate on the 20% that may be fraudulent
that maybe have other issues with it, but the 80%

(01:21:40):
should just flow through the system automatically.

S1 (01:21:42):
Yeah, I mean, I've read a bit about that as well, where,
you know, maybe people are like permanently blind or people
indeed have only got artificial eyes. They sort of kept
being asked to go back to their doctor and and
get it reviewed. I mean, like.

S17 (01:21:55):
Yeah, a miracle maybe. No. The doctor puts his hands
on the on their forehead and says, heal. You're healed, mate.
You're healed. You know, like, that's that's what I can't
get over. Exactly the same in your industry, you understand,
in your segment where you've got people from all different causes.
There's no cure. That's it. Yeah. So why are we
wasting time putting all that stress on those families and

(01:22:17):
those individuals when they should? Okay. No worries. Yep. We'll
just have to tick you off because actually it's deteriorated
even further in some cases. Um, this is what we
what we need. But majority of cases, there's no change
and there's not going to be until there's some miracle cure.
Let's continue to fund them properly. That's what they need
to do and concentrate on the ones that are a
bit iffy.

S1 (01:22:38):
Mark, you've been great contributors throughout the year. We appreciate that.
Let's hope that the new year is better for us.
In the meantime, enjoy the festive season as best as
you can and certainly those that are doing it tough.
Our thoughts are very much with them. If people want
to find out more then go to your website.

S17 (01:22:53):
Yes they can. Merry Christmas to you. And I've just
got to say Albo, Jim Chalmers, Minister for health, Minister
for NDIS, let this guy have a week for Christmas.

S1 (01:23:02):
Very powerful. Thank you Mark.

S17 (01:23:04):
See you later.

S1 (01:23:04):
Bye, Carmen. They're very outspoken, but, well, he's very passionate
and he's got the facts. He's got the people. He's
got the members that are giving him this information. So
spinal com is the website. We'll put that up with
our show notes. Good news Belinda Hellyer and David Mitchell
signing on for another year on the radio, which is great.

(01:23:27):
I'm sure we'll all be very grateful to hear them
again in 2026. Some quotes. Before we go, I'm going
to pinch one from the Brisbane Committee for Olympic and
Paralympic Games that was launched during the week. Their vision Belong, believe, become.
That's their mantra, I guess, for 2032. Here's one that

(01:23:50):
Mark has sent through. Mark says smart people learn from
their mistakes. Wise people learn from others. Thanks very much, Mark,
for sending that through. America has sent one through. Always
love hearing from America. Who says rather than scrolling? What
about scrolling? All right. Very appropriate with the band coming

(01:24:14):
up for under 16 from this week. So get out
and stroll. Okay. That is it for the program. If
you're listening through 1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide, I know
you'll be staying tuned because coming up very soon is
Vicki Cousins with Australian Geographic. Sam Rickard, thanks so much
for your help Pam Green, thanks so much for yours
James and Kev. Wonderful work again. Really appreciate all the

(01:24:38):
fabulous work you do. International Day for volunteers yesterday, so
thanks for your work guys, reminding you that the link
is available wherever you find your favorite podcast. We are there.
Trust me. Try us out. Be kind to yourselves, be
thoughtful and look out for others. All being well, let's
link back at the same time next week on Vision

(01:24:59):
Australia Radio and the Reading Radio Network. This is leisurely.

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