22 Nov 2025

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:25):
It's just gone 5:00 as I welcome you warmly to
later link here on Vision Australia Radio 1197. I'm Adelaide
online at Radio Theo, Radio Adelaide and Darwin through the
Community Radio Plus app. Look for Vision Australia Radio. If
you're listening through 103.9 Hope for Feminism in Western Australia.

(00:47):
Hello to you if you're listening on the radio network.
Hello to you and wonderful support we receive from Disability
Media Australia. Find out much more about them at Powered
Media p o w media. Peter Greco saying great to
be with you. Thank you for making time to tune
in this program coming to you from Ghana land. Come

(01:09):
to you very shortly. We'll speak to Minister Nat Cook
here in South Australia for human services. Talk about the
rescue of Bedford's look.so. Catch up with Sally Raphael from
See Differently. Party on the planes aren't Gillies planes for
International Day for people with disabilities. Your invitation to attend
is coming up very soon. Liz Wright and Veronica Levy

(01:32):
will join us. A filmed event coming up on Tuesday
for women with disabilities Victoria again. You'll be invited to
come along. We'll speak to Cathy about kindness. Such an
important topic, an easy topic. How can we do more?
We'll also speak to Keith Donnelly from Keith's Closet. He's
a winner of the Australian Mental Health Prize, making a

(01:54):
huge difference to people going into hospital and having mental illness.
We'll also catch up with Doctor Jenny Crosbie employing more
people with disabilities. That's a good idea. We'll also catch
up with Dan Lucas from Telstra. You can ring Santa
ho ho ho for your gift request to Santa. You

(02:18):
can do that from a public phone for free. We'll
find out about that. And doctor Anne-Marie Witherow will join
us along with Vicky Hamilton. They've got an art exhibition
they'd like to tell you about. The feature is Charles
Bonnet syndrome. So it's great to welcome to the program

(02:38):
the Minister for Human Services here in South Australia. Nat cook. Nat, welcome.
Good to catch up again.

S2 (02:43):
Hi, Peter. Yeah, very very good. I'm looking forward to
more of summer starting.

S1 (02:47):
Well I'm looking just this summer to say some signs. Anyway,
great news regarding Bedford. Or is it as good as
it seems? You were there when the announcement was made.

S2 (02:56):
Yeah, I think it's really complex, Peter, and there's a
number of layers. I hope that the majority of your
listeners are focused on what is really the best outcome
for people with disability who have been attending, been supported,
been wrapped up, have generated a circle of friends for
not just years, but decades through Bedford and the workplace

(03:17):
that they attend. And for some people, the dignity of
work is the important thing. For other people, and I
think it's the majority from the sense that I get
from talking to many friends. I have that work at Bedford.
It is actually the friends that they work with and
alongside every day, the lunch that they have with their
friends every day, the routine that they have with their

(03:39):
friends every day. So I think those are the things
that provide the certainty, support, the sense of independence, a
degree of autonomy and choice around being able to get out,
catch the bus, head to work, do their day, but
do it with people they want to be with. Now,
the secondary thing as well, for many families is that

(04:01):
it provides that opportunity for an adult person, often with
some intellectual disabilities, Abilities to be able to get out
of the house and spend time away from the home
doing alternate activities. So Bedford is not only a place
of work for people with disability, it provides day options
programs as well, not just in Adelaide right across South Australia.

(04:23):
That is the key. And that was gone within days.
Had we not acted way back in July. And then
we got to a point again in this past few
weeks that we knew there was a looming closure, had
action not happened. So there's been multiple points over the
last few months where, with the leadership of the Premier
and myself and other ministers and the treasurer stepping in

(04:45):
to provide support where we have made conscious, conscious. Well, yes.
And conscience in good conscience to be honest and conscious
decisions to intervene and lobby and work alongside the federal
government and also the national Bank to ensure the future
of Bedford as an entity. And this has come through

(05:07):
a complicated commercial process where the disability trust that operates
interstate has now taken over ownership of a range of
Bedford activities and entities and will keep the name. But Peter,
they have the chair and the CE. I was with
both of them the other day, and they both looked

(05:29):
at me and guaranteed me that they were keeping the
jobs of supporting employees, but those supported employees need support.
So this will also maintain a huge number. Hundreds of
support staff. But as I understand it, there are some
management jobs that have been lost. And of course that
is absolutely regrettable, but I need people to understand a

(05:54):
this was not the making of the government. This was
the making of a complex range of decisions made by
people in charge of decision making at Bedford that has then,
as a result, left Bedford in a really terrible position
and put all of the jobs, every job at risk
and with days to close on multiple occasions. So that's

(06:15):
where the government has come in to provide that protection.
So I hope that gives you a bit of a
sense that the government has supported Bedford to be an
entity in an ongoing way to this point, and now
it's in administration, and the administrators will be working out
the relationship between creditors and future operations outside of the

(06:37):
main sites that have been purchased.

S1 (06:38):
How long do you reckon this will be okay for?
I mean, is it a matter of time? Is it
forever and a day?

S2 (06:43):
Well, the commentary from the New Owners Disability Trust was
we don't want to see Bedford just operate for a
few years. We want another 80 years. So that is
as good as saying we have every mission and intent
to see Bedford last well into the future, well beyond
the years of service that anyone there currently is undertaking.

(07:05):
But I looked deeply into the history and the record
of the disability trust and only found reasonably good feedback.
I didn't find anything that made me worried, and I
spoke to some people that had been involved with them,
and they were very complimentary of the disability trust. And
they do a vast array of things, including supported workplace,
but including as well some of the things they were

(07:26):
talking about was sometimes people use this as a temporary
launching pad for different jobs. They love enterprise, they love innovation.
They want to see people in mainstream employment if they
can be supported in that they do housing and supports.
So they're big. I'm not sure, but this probably takes
them to be the biggest disability supported employer in the country.

(07:47):
I'll be keen to see the numbers once they wash down,
but also, as I understand it, they are now in
the top handful of disability service providers in the country,
so that's quite interesting as well.

S1 (07:59):
And they're not for profit.

S2 (08:00):
Yes, that's my understanding as well. So yes, that's a
positive thing isn't it? Not for profit is great. But
of course, as we know, Peter, it's not for long.

S1 (08:08):
Not for long either.

S2 (08:10):
It has to be for purpose and for stability and
and security. All that means is that the money doesn't
go in the pockets of the owner as such, or
a shared ownership. It goes back to the business to
be reinvested and used to support the operations. So let's
see that happen.

S1 (08:27):
I'm glad you mentioned the day off, because that's equally
important to the employment. I mean, the employment is important.
We saw how excited the staff were when they retained
their jobs, but to the day options is very important
and also for those not necessarily at the main site.
So this is right across the state.

S2 (08:43):
Yeah. So there are some sites that have not been
purchased though. So just to be clear, but let's focus
on the workers at those sites, the workers at those
sites who are supported in their jobs. So supported workers
have been advised that they will be still looked after,
and they're looking at alternate sites for them to undertake
their work that are in their local areas as well.

(09:05):
So they're still a piece of work to happen. But
the workers who are in the supported employment, that is
people within the main significant and complex intellectual disability, those
people are being looked after and are the number one priority.
That is the people that the government, you know, we
worry about all workers. We're a Labour government. We we
want all people to have meaningful work and be supported

(09:26):
and in those jobs. But the people with intellectual disability
provided a real layer of alarm for me, given that
there was about 800 people with intellectual disability that would
have suddenly not they would have turned up to closed
doors because many of these workers, for them, it is
a really long journey to learn how to catch a bus.

(09:47):
Even when the bus timetables change. This throws a degree
of disarray and confusion into workers going to Bedford, right?
So all of these things have to be done carefully.
and they were told on a Thursday that the doors
were shutting on the Monday and they panicked and it
was terrible. So we had to do something so we
couldn't stand back and do nothing. But unfortunately, it seems

(10:08):
that at the moment I'm advised there was 30 job losses.
And I do feel for all those people, and I
hope that they are able to secure good, meaningful jobs
and move on with their life in an employment situation.

S1 (10:20):
Probably isn't victims. I mean, they didn't do anything wrong.

S2 (10:22):
No, correct. And nor did the creditors. So nor did
the small businesses that have lost tens of thousands of
dollars because they, in good faith, provided supplies or resources
or services in a period of time where seemingly there
was challenges? So that is for the administrators to work through.
But that doesn't mean I don't care about them. I

(10:44):
really do care about them. And I'm sure there's people
in my local area that are affected, and I feel
really terrible for them. This is like what happens in
business closures. And when businesses go into administration, there are
always victims, Peter. But we as a community, we can
do well and we can look at who they are
and make a conscious effort to support those businesses as well.

S1 (11:04):
So and how do you become an interested bystander, if
you like, or do you have any sort of direct
contact with the disability trust from here on in?

S2 (11:12):
Oh, to completely. I've already spoken directly with the CEO
since the announcement. I spoke with the CEO and the
chair at the time and we exchanged details. So I
am always ready to speak to large providers. They do
a service for our community, so it's difficult to spread
myself around. So there's many, many small providers which I

(11:32):
just have to say, I'm sorry, I don't have time
to see all the tens of thousands of providers in
South Australia, but I do try and maintain contact with
the larger ones and provide an ear or whatever to those.
So I will meet up with the disability trust when
they set up more formally. And I'm advised that that
will happen over the course of the next few months,
that they'll be here in Adelaide.

S1 (11:53):
Alright, we've put in a request to have a chat
to someone from there, so hopefully they'll see that. Okay.
In the future maybe we can put your name up
as a referee. Nat. And that just before you go,
we're running out of time. We can always spend more time,
but we probably won't speak to you again before the
end of the year. Is there kind of one highlight?
I mean, apart from this rescuing of Bedfords, which is
really important, is there one highlight from the year that

(12:14):
you think about Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve?

S3 (12:17):
Let me give you just a couple of points.

S2 (12:19):
The Disability Inclusion Act and the plans that are coming out. Excellent.
I think we've got a much better eye on inclusion
in our community now than we did a decade and
two decades ago. I think the access to.

S3 (12:32):
The.

S2 (12:33):
Julia Farr Disability Inclusion grants, which closed last week, is
something I'm extremely proud of. We are now tying off
in a bow the world of the Julia Farr and
Highgate Park Trust to do goodness in the community in
the future. Today I was at government House and we
discussed the enactment of the changes to disability parking permits,

(12:55):
so that people with autism and other things are now
able to get them as well, because they were excluded before.
So we've done a lot of good things. The algal
bloom is going down. So in general, I hope that
people can enjoy some time at the beach over summer,
and I hope that people will have time with their
friends in the community where there are many more accessible

(13:18):
disability pieces of infrastructure, including. And I think it was
yesterday or the day before the International Day of the toilet.
So almost the Minister for toilets, I am very excited
about that.

S1 (13:29):
That you were asking me to say something I'll be
sorry for, so I won't. And on a serious note,
thank you so much to you and your team. To,
I should say, team has been wonderful in making you
available for us. We appreciate that and look forward to
continuing in the New year. And of course, then after
March 21st, we'll see what happens there as well.

S2 (13:45):
Thank you Peter. Have a good weekend. I'm back to
watch the cricket okay.

S1 (13:50):
That cook there? Minister for Human services here in South Australia. Well,
if you feel like a party on the plains on
December the 3rd here, you've come to the right place.
Let's chat about it with the San Rafael from sea. Definitely. Certainly.

(14:11):
Always great to catch up. Thanks for your time.

S4 (14:12):
Oh, pleasure. Peter, I love being on your show.

S1 (14:14):
Uh, this is great, Ted. December 3rd. A great day
to have a party and celebrate, I guess more than
just International Day for people with disabilities.

S4 (14:22):
Yeah, that's right. Peter. So last year, see differently with
the Royal Society for the blind, we turned 140. And
at the end of the year we had a what
we called party on the Plains, where we invited along
all of our clients, our staff, our volunteers and our donors.
And it was such a lovely, relaxed way to end

(14:42):
the year and really celebrate our community that, um, we've
brought it back by popular demand.

S1 (14:49):
Fantastic. Now, is it the same venue? Because it's a
nice venue for anyone that's been out there. It's a
great venue as well.

S4 (14:55):
Yeah, so it's at our Gillies Plains campus. So, um,
where we have our guide dog school and our manufacturing
and packaging and our low vision services, we're really lucky
we have a large oval here. And yeah, we get
some food trucks in, we get some music. We've actually got, um,
the incredible Rachael Leahcar. Oh, and and doing some singing

(15:16):
for us, which we're really excited about. And yeah, it's
really just a nice way to, um, thank all of
the people who are part of our community and, and
have that little get together at the end of the year.

S1 (15:27):
Oh, what a mighty ambassador Rachael speed for for see differently.
And also just for people who are blind or low
vision over must be getting on towards 15 years since
Rachael was on the voice. I know time gets away. We.
I still think she's about 17, but she's probably a
bit older than that actually. She's married with children now,
so she definitely is.

S4 (15:44):
She is. She was in our, um, wonderful Adelaide Christmas
Pageant a couple of weeks back and, um. Yeah, she
she came and did party on the Plains last year
and she's um. Yeah, she's a great entertainer. And like
you said, an excellent ambassador as well.

S1 (15:57):
And a great role model too. Just a bit more
about the day then. Uh, so you talked about the
the food trucks and a few of the other activities.

S4 (16:03):
Yeah. So, look, we do it, um, in the sort
of a twilight session. So for four till seven, um,
so people can, can come after work and, and have
a drink and, and some, some food and look, it's
a really relaxed environment. We'll have a marquee and some
picnic rugs. Um, we'll have the entertainment. We also sell
some of our merchandise, if anyone's after a last minute

(16:25):
Christmas gift. Um, and we also have a few sort
of local businesses come along and, and also do a
sort of like a mini Christmas market on the night
as well. So yeah, it's just a really, really nice,
chilled out sort of vibe. And yeah, just a, just
a casual way to, to end the year.

S1 (16:42):
It's a good time isn't it, between 4 and 7
if it's been a bit warmish by, you know, sort
of five, 6:00 it tends to cool down by that
time of the day, even on a on a warm day.

S4 (16:51):
Yeah. Last year we had a really, uh, really warm
evening for the event. Um, our Adelaide weather has been
all over the place, so who knows what what we'll get. But, um, look,
we've we've got the marquee, so, you know, if rain,
hail or shine, will, will will be there for party
on the Plains.

S1 (17:09):
I know that, uh, you know, it's been so coolish
that I think people will be, you know, almost welcoming
of something a bit hot just to kind of warm
up the blood a little bit because it's been a
little bit, uh, unseasonably cold, as they like to say.

S4 (17:21):
Yeah. We're all we're all looking forward to summer, I think.

S1 (17:24):
What about you? Sorry, Rachel. I've got Rachel on the line. Sally,
what about the year overall? Uh, how's it been, actually?
Definitely at the. I was at, uh, Tech Fest or what?
About a month or so ago. Very, very successful. Huge crowds.
There are lots of interest, a good vibe about that.

S4 (17:39):
Yeah. It's been a it's been a fantastic year with
some some big achievements for us. We're really proud of
our peer support program, which is providing peer support for
people who've particularly had a new low vision diagnosis. Um,
that's that's working really well and it's a free service,
but for people as well. Peter, um, we also held

(17:59):
our second, um, ever Braille challenge for um, primary and
secondary students in Adelaide earlier in the year. You mentioned Techfest.
We've just recently been appointed to offer, um, employment programs
under the new government, Inclusive Employment Australia. And we're ending
the year on a real high with, um, an increase

(18:20):
in our manufacturing and packaging workforce as well. So, um,
we're about to start manufacturing Carmen's fruit straps from Gillies Plains,
and we've just welcomed 35 new staff into our packaging division. So, gosh,
it's been a busy year, Peter. And I think we
all we all need a couple of weeks off. But um,

(18:40):
some really some really great things to support the low
vision and blind community, as well as well as our
veterans who we also support through our Assistance Dog program.

S1 (18:51):
See, that's employment thing is so important, isn't it? I mean,
you know, anyone listening in would obviously know about that
and agree with that. But you know, that's a great
opportunity for more people blind or low vision to be
gainfully employed. And I guess, you know, help with their
self esteem, help with their income and just help, I guess,
spread the message of abilities of people who might be
blind or have low vision.

S4 (19:10):
That's right. And it's a really individual program. So, you know,
everyone in life has different employment opportunities and and hopes
and dreams, and we're there to really support people in
a practical level to work out, um, what sort of
what sort of job or career that they would like
to help them find the right, right place to, to
do that and then help out with the really practical
elements like, like the technology and the, um, you know, just,

(19:35):
just those little changes that can make a big difference for,
for someone with low vision to, to find and then
keep the job that they're that they're after.

S1 (19:42):
Well, Techfest shows us what's happening and how quickly it's changing.
And you're at the coalface of that. So, you know,
often people think, oh, I'm not sure if someone might
be able to do that sort of job, but if
they know the sort of technology that's out there and
you guys obviously do not really well, it's kind of
your raison d'etre if you like, you know, that can
make a huge difference. Oh, I didn't know that was available.

(20:03):
But now that now that we know about it, we
can do something quite positive from it.

S4 (20:07):
Yeah. The technology is is a great leveler and it's
really making workforces and communication and everything far more accessible
for for everyone, particularly people with disabilities. So every year
the technology gets faster and smarter. And it's it's been
incredible just to watch over the last couple of years

(20:28):
how much more affordable and how much, um, how much
more helpful the technology and easy to use as well.
I think that's the other thing we always try and
get across. Peter, a lot of people are, particularly some of, say,
our older generation are sometimes a bit hesitant or sceptical
about how tech can work for them, but they often
come with, um, you know, their partner or one of

(20:50):
their adult kids, and they're often surprised at how easy
it is to use and how much of a difference
it can make in your life.

S1 (20:56):
It's a great way to maybe connect with kids and grandkids,
you say, particularly if they're, you know, quite a bit
younger than you. You kind of might be a bit
of a cool, cool pop or a cool Nana.

S4 (21:06):
Absolutely. It's worth a try, isn't it?

S1 (21:09):
Sally, what about this was the third ghost. It's free.
There's no charge for the day.

S4 (21:13):
No, it's a free. It's a free event. Um, the
only thing we charge for on the night is if
if anyone wants to buy some merchandise or, um, we
do have to charge for our alcoholic drinks, but, um,
free food and softies and all the entertainment are free.

S1 (21:26):
And that's a very great idea about last minute Christmas gifts.
I mean, by December 3rd, we're probably all starting to
get a little bit panicky as to what we can
buy for, you know, who. So, uh, you know, you
might be might better have a bit of fun, a
bit of entertainment, a bit of food, and also a
bit of Christmas shopping.

S4 (21:42):
Yep. Help out, help out a good cause along the way.

S1 (21:45):
Now do people need your book or can they just
turn up?

S4 (21:47):
We do have a registration available through our website which
is see differently. Um, so yeah, it's great for us
to know if people can come so we can make
sure we've we've got enough for everyone.

S1 (22:00):
Alright. We'll put those details up on our show notes. Sally,
to you and all those that see differently. We've had
great support from you. Well, not just this year for many,
many years, so I'm sure it'll continue for many, many
years to come. Have a great day December 3rd. Congratulations
on the year and thanks for speaking to us.

S4 (22:14):
Have a lovely Christmas to you, Peter.

S1 (22:16):
Okay Sally out there from see definitely the RSP. We'll
put those details up with our show notes.

S5 (22:23):
Hi, I'm Melissa Perrin, four time Winter Olympian, bronze medalist
and co-captain, and you're listening to Leisure Link with Peter
Greco on the Vision Australia radio network.

S1 (22:34):
Well, a very interesting film day coming up this Tuesday.
A little bit of late notice, but hopefully you might
have time to get there. Let's chat about it with
Liz Wright from women with disabilities. Victoria Liz, good to
meet you. Thanks for your time.

S4 (22:45):
Well good afternoon Peter.

S6 (22:46):
It's lovely to meet you too. And thank you for
giving us some time because we're really excited about this afternoon,
which my colleague and friend Veronica has been very instrumental
in organizing and wanting to have this film event to
show people over your side of town some really interesting
disability history.

S1 (23:05):
Well, Liz, maybe tell us when and where and then
the name of the film, and then we'll talk to
Veronica a bit about it.

S6 (23:10):
So it's Tuesday, which is the first day of the
16 Days of Activism, which is November the 25th, and
it ends with Human Rights Day on December the 10th,
and it's going to be at the Knox Arts Center
in the theater there. Entrance is via the car park
through the back. We're all very egalitarian now, so we
all enter by the same door. Our wheelchair users, those

(23:33):
with mobility aids, those like me who just can't see
very well. I like the idea of just being able
to head on in and catch up with people to
see some really great films. So Defiant Lives, which Veronica
will talk about, has been a groundbreaking film that is
talking about our Australian scene around the disability community, but
also linking us into kind of the world context. So

(23:55):
very excited. There's two sessions, not just 2:00 on the Tuesday,
but there's another one at 530, and there's a series
of short films from Bus Stop Productions, which are great.

S1 (24:04):
Veronica, just a bit about your involvement with this, how
and why have you got involved?

S4 (24:09):
Thank you Peter. So how I got involved was I
used to be a member of the wider steering committee.
Why does is the Youth Disability Advocacy Service from then
I joined the women with Disability Victoria Outer East Hub,
and when I was with Y Das, we watched the

(24:29):
film The Fine Line. I am passionate about people with
disability being represented in media, especially when it comes to
our history. Defiant lives tells the story of the disability
rights movements that happened here in Australia, Britain and America.
And it talked about how as people with disabilities, we

(24:51):
have to fight and protest to get out of the
institution and also our fight for equity. Coming out of that,
it also shows stories about how the journey started. So
once people got out of institutions, they started seeking social
connections with others and how to start living their lives

(25:13):
as members in society. And what we were saying was, no,
we don't want to be invisible. We deserve to have
equal rights like everybody else. And when I first watched
this film years ago and then recently watched it again
with Libby, who Two one. The women with Disabilities Victoria
Outer East hub. It reignited my passion of why the

(25:36):
general community needs to have access to disability film, not
just our community. Disability films don't get as shown as
often in mainstream cinemas and in particular as Australians. Disability.
I feel that we don't actually know a lot about
our own history, specifically as Australians with disability. So I

(25:59):
thought LEP hosted a community event not just for people
with disability, but so that for people in the general
public to come along to specifically learn about our community
and connect with us, particularly as International Day of People
with disability is on the 3rd of December.

S1 (26:18):
Yeah. Now good news. The film is already described.

S4 (26:21):
Yes, that's right, it's audio described. So if there's anybody
in the blind and low vision community who was interested.
They're welcome to come along if there's any other people
who are deaf or hard of hearing. It's also closed
captioned as well, so they can also access the film too.
But we're making sure that everybody is included, which is

(26:45):
what this film is all about, is having access and
inclusion for everybody.

S1 (26:52):
Veronica, just quickly, when was the film set? I'm thinking
that the issues are probably as relevant today as when
the film or the time that the film is set in.

S4 (27:01):
Yes they are. So the film came out in 2016.

S1 (27:05):
Okay.

S4 (27:06):
It sort of set in two bits. The first bits
talks about what happened to people's disabilities in institutions, so
that just to give a content warning, there is also
some outdated ableist language in the film. So just to
make sure. And also some heavy themes that might be

(27:27):
sensitive for some participants as well. So because of that
first half, you're giving you the heads up. And then
the second bit that sort of talks more about the
beginning of advice and inclusion. And then there's also some
talk around the NDIS. It first started back in 2013,
so there had been something that had progressed in some ways.

(27:52):
We realised, yes, we have the right to advocate for
ourselves and now we have disability led organisations as well.
But there's also some things that haven't quite progressed. So
for example, public transport, that is still a big access
problem today. Also, some people in mainstream society don't quite

(28:13):
know how to engage with people with disability, particularly in
shops as well. So that still needs a little bit
more progression and the NDIS as well. That is a
little bit all over the place at the moment.

S1 (28:29):
We've got to leave it there. But we'll get you back, babe.
We'll get you back in a few weeks to chat
about how the film went and the reception and the
response to it, but thank you both so much for
speaking to us. Now we'll put some details up with
our show notes, but it is this Tuesday, so people
got to be pretty quick off the mark to book
to come along. But thank you for speaking to us.

S6 (28:46):
Not a problem, Peter. Just everybody. Thank you. The 25th
of November.

S1 (28:52):
That's, uh, Lizz Wright and also Veronica Levy from women
with disabilities. Victoria, talk about that film day coming up
on Tuesday. All those details up with our show notes.

S7 (29:05):
You're in elite company listening to Leslie Peter on radio, radio,
VA radio, digital, VA radio and through the TuneIn radio app.

S1 (29:18):
Well, I'm delighted to welcome program, Kathy Hochul, who's played
cricket and done lots of other exciting things, and is
also very much in the kindness. November 13th was World
Kindness Day, but to me it's very relevant all year round.
It's great to meet you and thanks for your time.

S2 (29:34):
Oh, thanks, Peter. It's lovely to meet you too.

S1 (29:36):
Now tell us a bit about your career. You have
done lots of things and you've also had to overcome
a few challenges.

S2 (29:42):
I have, yeah, I, um, I guess I've experienced two
things in large amounts. That's kindness, but also a lot
of adversity as well. So, um, it was a professional athlete.
I've broken my back on two separate occasions. And in
and amongst that suffered some pretty significant loss as well. So, um,
I guess it was throughout those times of adversity that
kindness really sung through to me and was able to

(30:04):
sort of pull me out of those darker places and,
and put me back on track. So now I've kind
of committed my life, I guess, to, um, to spreading
that awareness about the importance of kindness. And that's why
days like, you know, World Kindness Day that we've just had, um,
are so important and so significant because they're a really
important reminder to be kind to ourselves and others?

S1 (30:24):
We'll come back to the World Kindness Day and kindness
in general in a while. But what about your career?
Obviously an elite athlete and then, you know, a very
serious accident. Where to say you break your back. I mean,
go from one extreme to another.

S2 (30:38):
Yeah. Um. It is. That's a pretty sobering reality to
have to face into when you've spent most of your
life being able to use your body, like in a
way that an elite people can. And it was a
big change that I had to adjust to. But yeah,
as I said, really small moments of kindness were able
to lift me. Um, in the times that I felt
like I couldn't keep going or I was too tired
to commit to rehab and all those sorts of things.

S1 (31:00):
Are you happy to share about what happened to you?

S2 (31:02):
Yeah. So, um, I used to play cricket professionally, and, um,
I actually broke my back playing, um, I was paralysed,
told I'd never walk again. And I went on to
rehab to teach myself how to walk again for 12
months and met and fell in love with the patient there.
And we grew to to love, but also to recover
together and to to build a life that would exist
outside of rehab. When 12 months into that, um, he

(31:26):
actually actually passed away by suicide. And I was only
22 at that point. And they're two pretty big life
hurdles to go through. So, um, I didn't really have
the coping skills. Um, you know, some could argue that
most wouldn't, but, um, I kind of had to fumble
my way through life there for a little bit, and
it was moments of kindness that pulled me through, and
I got my life somewhat back on track and started

(31:48):
Kindness Factory, which is now a registered non-profit. And I
got into triathlon successfully teaching myself how to walk again.
I didn't stop there. I started doing triathlon events and
one day I was on a training bike ride and
I got hit by a drunk driver from behind and
broke my back again, which saw me go back to
rehab to teach myself how to walk again for the
second time. And, um, and it was then that I

(32:09):
guess I went all in on kindness. I guess I'd
spent the first half of my life being obsessed with
high performance and what makes people tick and all that
kind of stuff. And then the second half has sort
of been committed to emotional intelligence and the power of kindness.
And so, um, I'm kind of combining both now where
I get to speak on stages around the world about,
you know, leadership and executive functioning and also the emotional

(32:30):
intelligence that comes into play when we're living in a
digitally increasing world that we are. So it's been a
fascinating journey to live. That's that's first and foremost. But
then secondly, um, it's really nice to be able to
take people on this journey with me where I can
teach them that those powers and those skills as well.

S1 (32:49):
Because athletes are very, uh, highly motivated and often, you know, perfectionists.
So they're not kind to themselves. Is that where it
kind of starts is like anything, you know, you can't
love someone else unless you love yourself. Is it a
bit the same as kindness?

S2 (33:01):
I'm so glad that you said that, actually, because I
think often we think about kindness in this way. That's
quite altruistic. And it is a lot of what being
kind is, is being kind to others. But, um, what
the research actually says to us is that there's a
very big difference between being kind and being nice. So
being nice can obviously or sometimes lead into the territory

(33:22):
of people pleasing, and it can often lack authenticity, whereas
kindness is rooted in, I guess, an unwavering belief of
doing right by yourself and others. And the best way
that I can kind of describe it, you know, like
what you just said, if you don't love yourself, you
can't love someone else. And, you know, I travel a
lot for work internationally and domestically. And the first message

(33:42):
I always hear on a plane is in case of
an emergency, oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling. Put
yours on first before helping others. And that's because we
can't help others unless we've helped ourselves first. We'll sink. Um,
and the same goes for kindness. We can't give true
and authentic kindness to others, you know, not wanting something
in return, etc. unless we are kind to ourselves. So perhaps,

(34:03):
you know, as we've seen, days like World Kindness Day
just appear and and go before us and all that
kind of stuff as the days roll on and we
get further and further away from World Kindness Day, maybe
we can remind ourselves to take an opportunity every single
day to be kind to ourselves and then to others
as well.

S1 (34:19):
I guess one could say, well, you know, how hard
can it be? I mean, you know, I'm not going
to be able to do a triathlon, but I probably
could if I really trained for it, but I don't
think I could. You know, I could be able to
climb a mountain, but maybe being kind. How hard can
it be?

S8 (34:33):
It doesn't have to be hard at all. And it's
all really relative.

S2 (34:36):
So, um, you know, I'm someone who, having spent most
of their life being an athlete, um, I need to
exercise most days to be kind to myself because I
know it regulates my mood and boosts my esteem and
all that kind of stuff. But other people like simply
walking their dog or hugging someone or having a coffee
with your favorite person. Whatever it is that really lifts
your esteem and your well-being, that is all that kindness

(34:58):
needs to look like. And then when we're giving it
to others as well, um, you don't have to overengineer
anything or overdo it or be inauthentic in your approach.
Simply just smile at the next person that you walk by,
because more often that you're going to get a smile back,
which will boost both of your moods, but it can
actually lead to things like a conversation and then growth
and friendship and connection. And we're living in this digitally

(35:21):
connected world where technology is rife and it's taken over.
Yet most people are feeling quite lonely. So I think
just simply being kind to one another, um, is a
really good starting place for all of, um, the well-being
of individuals around the country.

S1 (35:35):
And of course, we hear about, uh, the kind of
other epidemic that's breaking out at the moment that that
of loneliness.

S2 (35:41):
It is? Yeah. It's, um, I mean, the antidote or
the opposite of loneliness is to belong, right? And I
think as human beings, we're hardwired for connection. We really are.
We weren't born to go through life alone. And they
just say, you know, being lonely is kind of comparable
to smoking a packet of cigarettes today in terms of

(36:01):
the detriment it has on our health. And the more
I hear from people and there's a lot of people
out in the world struggling or feeling lonely and isolated
and disconnected and all those sorts of things, they all
are just craving someone to care or to to make
them feel seen and heard. And I think that's a
fundamental human right to be able to feel that way.
And the perfect way again, to do that is through kindness.

(36:22):
It's sort of ensuring that psychological safety is there and
that we can trust people and we can open up
and we can share our struggles, or we can share
and celebrate the good moments that are happening in life, too.
But often in times of crisis, as human beings, our
natural tendency is to go away. We avoid a lot
of pain, and we avoid people, and we isolate when
we're in these times of crisis. So again, I think

(36:42):
days like World Kindness Day that we've just had, they
often just serve as that little reminder to to practice
kindness again. But as I said, as the days move
away from World Kindness Day and we go into the
summer months and all those sorts of things and everything
takes over, maybe we can just try and keep that
at the forefront of our mind.

S1 (36:58):
Yeah, no, it's a very good thing to be reminded.
Reminding ourselves of. What about your talks then? You'd say
speak to corporates. I mean, is there room for kindness
in the corporate world, the cut throat corporate World Cup.

S2 (37:10):
Um, you know, I often used to get. I'll be
doing it for ten years now, and I fly all
around the world doing it. And we talk about the
research and we talk about my story, and it can
be quite funny at times and all that kind of
stuff as well. And I think at the start of
my journey in doing this, which I never intended to do,
to be honest, it's just kind of naturally happened. Um,
when I started doing it, you get the eye rolls
at the start. Oh my God, we've got this, you know,

(37:31):
white middle aged woman coming in to talk to us
about about kindness. Are you kidding me? Like, get her out. Um,
and and now.

S1 (37:40):
That there's that unkind as it can, surely.

S2 (37:42):
Well, I think it was just more like a. Are
you kidding me? Like, you know, like, I think the
Australian spirit is well and truly alive. And then they
hear my story and they hear, I guess, how simple
this concept is of being kind and how important it
is really to fundamental being. And they all love it
at the end. So it got quite catchy and quite
popular and I love doing it now. It's really cool.
But um, it does have a place. So what we've

(38:05):
seen in the organisations that we implement a strategy of
kindness or culture in that organization. And we're talking some
pretty big companies here as well. Around the world. We'll
see an increase increase in productivity by 22%, in well-being
by 66%, and profitability will lift by 18%. If kindness
is within that framework of culture in that organization. So

(38:28):
they're actually saving money. They're making more money, um, for
a profitability standpoint, but also they're better human beings in
the process, not just in the workplace, but outside of
it as well.

S1 (38:37):
Yeah. And I guess it's an investment, isn't it? Like, uh,
you know, they're investing in kindness, which is showing up
on their bottom line. And that's what corporates want in particular.

S2 (38:45):
Absolutely. Yeah. It's a win win.

S1 (38:47):
Yeah. What about kids. Because I guess the younger you
start the better.

S2 (38:51):
Yeah. So um, the charity that I founded ten years ago,
it's got a kindness curriculum. So we teach kindness to
kids in school. Yeah, yeah. And what that looks like
is there's 12 behaviors that encompass kindness. So things like compassion, gratitude, empathy, perspective, positivity, mindfulness, humility, humor.
So all these things, um, the earlier that we're getting

(39:13):
to children, the quicker we are able to sort of,
I guess, access their neural pathways in their brain chemistry
to be able to, I guess, uh, showcase or put
kindness at the forefront of their mind. So it's not
a case that needs to be sold. It's just a
natural byproduct of their behavior.

S1 (39:27):
Don't want to get too much off topic, but do
you think sometimes things happen for a reason? I mean,
I'm just thinking the way you speak is magnificent. It's
quite inspirational. I've got to be honest with you. You know,
if what had happened to you hadn't happened to you,
you might not be doing this. We might not be
speaking at the moment. You might not be spreading this message.

S2 (39:44):
Yeah.

S6 (39:45):
Look, I think.

S2 (39:45):
I've always been a pretty decent person. Um, but I yeah,
I do, maybe not that everything happens for a reason.
I think sometimes that's a hard reality to face into,
but I certainly without my life experience, I wouldn't be
doing what I'm doing. And and right now, look, I
wouldn't wish what I went through upon anyone, but I'm
the happiest, healthiest and most content I've ever been. And

(40:06):
so I think that just goes to show that if
there's anyone listening who's going through a struggle right now,
you're not alone. You will get through it. And please
lean on people around you to be able to do that.
There's support available and your life can be anything wonderful
that you make it. Um, and it truly can turn around.
So it's a message that I'm really proud to be

(40:26):
able to support, because there were times throughout my own
struggles that it felt like there was no way out,
and that it would never turn around or I wouldn't
be happy, and all those sorts of things and, um,
life can be beautiful again. It really can. And, um,
I'm not suggesting that everyone should start a global non-profit
or a business that centers around kindness, but find your
thing and and stick to that and, and have a

(40:46):
crack and, um, and just try but, um, yeah, I
know how hard it can be at certain times as well.
So feel the pain and you will get through it. Yeah.

S1 (40:56):
You talked about, uh, November 13th, uh, being in the
rear view mirror. But by the same token, I guess
with Christmas and holidays and all those fun times coming up.
That sort of message is very important as well because
some people don't see it that way.

S2 (41:09):
No, absolutely. I think, you know, times like Christmas and
that can be quite isolating for people who don't have
much support. But it can also be a very wonderful
celebration of what what is out there as well. So
anyone who does have support is going really well. Maybe
think about those people as Christmas approaches and realise how
lucky you are and give a little bit back as well.

S1 (41:27):
Kath, if people want to find out more about you,
how can we do that?

S2 (41:30):
There's a couple of different ways you can just reach
out to hello at kind Group, or you can go
to kindness. Com and log an act of kindness if
that's something that you feel like doing. The third way
actually is we've got a partnership this year with the
Kind Collective who commissioned some research about the impacts of kindness.
And there are beauty product brand and okay, um, on
World Kindness Day, they actually committed 100% of profits from

(41:53):
products to Kindness Factory, the charity that helps kids out
with kindness. So, um, go and support their products there
in big W. They'll be in Woolies soon, but look
out for Klan Collective and have a crack at their products.
They're really good as well.

S1 (42:05):
That's a great message, Kath. Great to catch up. I'd
love to talk to you again, but thank you for
spending some time with us today. And I can't believe
people say, get her out. I think you made that
bit up.

S2 (42:14):
I initially initially, but not now, but it's a lot better.

S1 (42:18):
Now that I get her back.

S2 (42:20):
Get her back, get her back. Exactly. Thanks. See ya. Bye.

S1 (42:24):
That's who we're from, the, uh, Candace factory. And also
been through some tough times, but also, uh, making a
real difference and kindness. We say that every week on
the program, which is kind of coincidental, but, uh, well,
like that kind of coincidental, but also really, really important.

S9 (42:41):
Keep in touch with Vision Australia radio.

S7 (42:44):
In Adelaide on 1190 7 a.m..

S1 (42:47):
For the very prestigious Australian Mental Health Prize. Winners were
announced during the week. I'm really delighted to welcome to
the program Keith Donnelly, who's the founder and CEO for
Keith's Closet. Keith, welcome and congratulations.

S10 (42:58):
Thank you so much for having me on.

S1 (43:00):
It's a kind of a cute, cool name, but it's
a very serious topic that you tackle. Keith.

S10 (43:05):
It sure is. Look, mental health is relevant. Absolutely everybody
and certainly doesn't discriminate, as we would well know.

S1 (43:14):
Tell us about your idea and how and why you
set up Keith's closet.

S10 (43:17):
Yeah. So going back a number of years, I did
my mental health training in Ireland. I started a bit
of a late stage in my life. At the age
of 36. I went to university for four years, specialising
in mental health, and it was really during that time
I would witness many men and women often arrive in

(43:37):
for a hospital admission unplanned, with just the clothing on
the back, and as a result of that, it often
just meant the only item of supporting clothing that we
could offer these men and women was a hospital gown,
and that never from the first I went in, it
never sat well with me to think this is the

(43:58):
only item of clothing because even for me handing someone
a white hospital gown, I felt I was stigmatizing people
even further. So I thought, what are we able to
do with all the clothing out there with all the clothes?
I was just really looking at my own wardrobe. First
of all, and actually thinking, look, I'm sure I have
some nice clothes at home, my own wardrobe. That would

(44:20):
make some difference to someone going through an already very,
very difficult time. So that's kind of where it started.
I just started writing my own wardrobe. I started writing
my wife's wardrobe for the ladies arriving in, and fairly
soon we thought, right, we need to plan something else.

S1 (44:37):
What about the difference it makes when you're quite right,
isn't it? I mean, hospitals are stressful at the best
of times, and, you know, you're given a white uniform,
if I can put it that way. It's hardly kind
of mood lifting, is it?

S10 (44:48):
It's definitely, definitely not. And we've got to recognise that
the people who are coming into a mental health The admission.
You are extremely unwell, extremely vulnerable and already in fear
of what lies ahead for the hospital admission. Like nobody
wants to be in a hospital. But I think especially
when it's against your own will and it's under the

(45:11):
Mental Health Act, it just adds an extra layer of
terror for people. So I think as well as just
offering those accessing the service some nice clothing and toiletries
that also start the conversation of just making them feel human,
just making them feel welcome. And just if a new
outfit lifts their mood for even a little while, I

(45:33):
think it's such an important factor like that. We would
recognise as well, from working in a hospital setting, that
everything is so organized, you know, as, as a patient
or as someone who's accessing the service in the admissions unit,
it's like your breakfast is at this time, your medication
at this time. You got to see the doctor at
this time. So all of a sudden, you've gone from

(45:56):
the outside world into this hospital where you're being told
like what to do and appointments are being lined up
for you and everybody wants to assess you. So I
think for Keith's closet, it's just a time to get
away from that. It's not a time to talk about
your mental illness. It's a time to share what wonderful
things you have going on in your life. What are
your hobbies? What do you really enjoy doing on a

(46:19):
good day? And just really giving them that sense of
want and a platform to just be open and share
whatever they want to share?

S1 (46:26):
Hey Keith, was this in Australia or was it back
in Ireland? You set it up.

S10 (46:30):
Yeah. So this I set this up in, uh, the
Prince of Wales Hospital in in 2019 whilst I was
working there as a mental health nurse, and it was
just like I was obviously juggling a lot of balls
at the time to get this up and running and
also manage my nursing sector. So it was just an
idea really, that I just wanted to help someone, and

(46:51):
then it kind of gathered a lot of interest from
media and New South Wales government, and it's kind of
snowballed a little bit from there.

S1 (47:00):
And I guess people might think, oh, it's a simple thing,
but like a lot of things, simple things can be very,
very powerful.

S10 (47:05):
They most definitely are. And and the feedback that we
get from those who are accessing the service, that's where
the proof is in the pudding for me. You know,
I often get some phone calls, like from people who
would often just ring to say, you wouldn't believe it.
I was in the call centre last week or some
part of New South Wales, and I accessed the kids
closet and you wonder where. And I got new new

(47:28):
outfit that I could then wear for a potential interview
on discharge, or just having some nice casual clothing. So
it really does have that ripple effect. And we have
a visitor's book as well that we ask those who
who've obviously gotten some items from the closet just to
leave a little message if they do. And honestly, the
mess is left in this book. It's quite empowering to

(47:51):
see how we can make such a big difference with
such a small town.

S1 (47:55):
Okay, the announcement of the presentations were during the week.
And how was that?

S10 (47:59):
I was blown away. Um, I got I got a
phone call a couple of months ago from one of
the committee members, and I thought she said that I
was being nominated for this award. And of course, I
was absolutely delighted because it's not only for me, but like,
I'm not one of those guys that needs to win awards.
It's more so for everybody associated with Keith's closet, especially

(48:22):
those who were supporting. So this whole nomination and award
thing is always for these guys and girls who we
help now to later realize in the conversation that she
actually said, I won the Australian boys. Oh, I nearly
fell off the chair. What? What really? So, um. And
yesterday was just a beautiful day. There was four other

(48:45):
winners and lots of nominees there on the day, which
I thought was really lovely that they wanted to come
along not as winners, but just like to see what
was happening within the realm. And I got a chance
to speak and share our story. And it was just
a room full of love and support. We're all there
to support each other and even us as mental health clinicians.

(49:07):
Like we go through some really tough times. We're only human,
you know, and that's what the floor really allowed for
that we were just able to take our armor off
and just be ourselves and share our journey. And of course,
like on on top of that, to have the presentation
of the Australian Mental Health Prize award in my hand
was the cherry on top.

S1 (49:29):
You deserve it, Keith. I'm assuming that you've now rated
yours and your wife's wardrobe. Do you look for clothes?
How do you go about getting more, uh, more ammunition
for the police?

S10 (49:38):
Yeah. So basically we're across all the socials, we're on LinkedIn,
we're on Insta, Kate's closet official, and Keith's closet on Facebook.
We also have a website. So if we have have
anybody out there that wants to donate some really, really
good clothing, but we do ask for it is like
to contact us through our enquiries line, because sometimes we

(50:02):
might have a certain amount of items, for example, that
we've already got hundreds and hundreds of. So we might
say to look okay for such a size or such
a item at this moment in time. But please keep
this in mind. And of course, we'd always have items
that were always short on new underwear, new socks, you know,
but as well as as well as the clothing. We're

(50:24):
a very, very small organisation. So it's more if anybody
is listening, if anybody is tuning in, that would really
like to come on board and help us with certain
areas like such as marketing, events management, fundraising events, social media,
I mean, there's something for everybody to really get involved.
And I think we're at a crucial point in our

(50:46):
their growth that we need more helping hands. We're absolutely
getting smashed at the moment. And and an important factor
is for us is that we maintain the closets. It's
not just about building them and thinking, oh, aren't we
so great? We're up to, uh, number seven now looking
at Keith's closet outlets. And that includes our mobile van

(51:06):
and our warehouse down in Alexandria. But it's really about
maintaining that service and making sure that when anybody arrives
at the hospital and needs support for the essential items,
that that closet is looking like a high street store.
You know, it's that whole experience as well where you
go in and everything is nicely organized and you can

(51:27):
navigate your way around whatever shape or size, whatever fashion
you enjoy. There's something there for everybody for them to choose.
And that's the key point as well. It's not me
or someone else choosing what they should wear. They have
that choice to go in and pick for themselves.

S1 (51:44):
Congratulations again. Keep up the great work. We'll put your
details up with our show notes, and hopefully you might
get some more takers or some more people to help out.
But richly deserved. And it's been a joy talking to you.

S10 (51:54):
Thank you so much for your time, Peter. I really
appreciate it.

S1 (51:57):
It's Keith Donnelly there from Keith Closet. What a wonderful
accent that just makes you smile just hearing Keith voice.

S11 (52:05):
Hi, I'm Emma merritt, a member of the Australian Gliders,
and you're listening to Leisa link with Peter Greco on
the Vision Australia radio network.

S1 (52:17):
I'm Doctor Jenny Crosby, he's from the Australian Centre for
Inclusive Employment, with some news that was released earlier this month. Jenny,
great to meet you and thanks for your time.

S12 (52:26):
Thanks for having me today, Peter.

S1 (52:28):
Now tell us a bit about this. Earlier this month,
you released some really interesting information about be an opportunity
for more people with disabilities to be more employed.

S12 (52:37):
Yes. We, um, the centre for Inclusive Employment has been
funded by the Department of Social Services, and its aim
is to improve employment outcomes for people with disability. And
the centrepiece of the centre for Inclusive Employment is our
new online hub, which went live on the 1st of November. So, uh,

(52:58):
your listeners can find it at centre for Inclusive Employment.

S1 (53:03):
Alright, we'll put those details up with our show notes
so people can go there to find out more. Just
a bit about the background of this. I think one
of the most impressive things about this reading about is
the fact that you've been very consultative as far as
this process goes.

S12 (53:17):
Yes, we built the centre based on a consortium. So
the consortium is led by Swinburne University of Technology through
the centre for Social Impacts. Um, and the centre for
Social Impact does a lot of very practical applied research.
So it's already got a very consultative approach to the
work that it undertakes. So in building the consortium, we

(53:39):
brought on board all of the disability representative organisations in Australia.
So they're going to be involved in helping design the
work of the centre, and they already have been involved
in the design of the online hub. Then we've also
got organisations that go under the branding Nasbo, which is
the National Association of Capacity Building Organisations and their family

(54:00):
led organisation that support life outcomes, basically for people with
significant disabilities. So that includes employment. And then we have
the University of Melbourne through the Melbourne Disability Institute and
also the two peak bodies that are support employment service
providers so that National Disability Services and Disability Employment Australia.

(54:20):
So we've been working very collaboratively as a consortium to
design to design the centre's work.

S1 (54:25):
You've got a pretty wide scope as far as uh,
sort of, uh, different points of view go or different
sort of angles go.

S12 (54:32):
Yeah. And that was deliberate because we what we wanted
to do was bring everybody together. So rather than having
us all in silos, it was very intentional, that we
would have everybody in the group in the room, and
then we can learn from each other and work together
around that same, you know, that overarching goal, which is
that employment is a human right, and we want people
with disability to have access to the right services and

(54:53):
support so that they can achieve their employment goals.

S1 (54:56):
Because I guess it's one thing to be given a
chance at employment. It's another thing to make the most
of it, or to make sure that the outcome is
successful for both parties, both the employee and the employer.

S12 (55:07):
Absolutely. And we saw in the disability Royal Commission evidence
and in some of the recommendations that came out of
the Disability Royal Commission, that employment service providers didn't know
enough about how to help people with disabilities look for employment.
They didn't know enough about things like assistive technology and

(55:27):
other workplace modifications that people use. And also there was
too much focus on compliance, government compliance, rather than providing
the supports that help people move along their pathway to work.
So the center's focus is on making sure that the
evidence about what works is strongly available. And we want

(55:47):
that evidence to be available to everyone people with disability themselves,
their family providers, employers, government and the general community schools.
So we'd like everyone to be using the same language and,
you know, having some commonality across everybody about what should
be delivered in terms of employment support to people with disability.

S1 (56:06):
It's a great point you make about the technology that's
available and that's moving at such a rapid rate. And obviously,
you know, in terms of accessibility and inclusiveness may be helping, but,
you know, if people don't know about it, who might
be making decisions in that sort of area. Well, it's
kind of a bit literally lost on them.

S12 (56:23):
Yeah, absolutely. And we've certainly you mentioned employers a moment ago,
and certainly we have heard from employers that they're not
getting the services they want from the employment providers as well.
So they're looking for long term support. You know they
want employment services to be available to them to help
them solve problems. And, you know, they recognize that there

(56:44):
might be hiccups or bumps along the way. And what
they want is somebody to be available to come back
in and, you know, potentially provide some new equipment or
some updated equipment or rearrange the way the work is done.
Some of the common things that employers are looking for. So, yeah,
rather than rather than a subsidy or, you know, a

(57:04):
quick in and out, they're really looking for a long
term relationship with a provider who can support them. And
I'm actually I'm sitting in Sydney today at Job Support
40th anniversary celebration and job support of an employment service
provider in Australia. Well, as it says, for 40 years
and I'm watching everybody walking in and, um, many of
the people who are here today have been employed for

(57:25):
20 or 30 years, either claim jobs. So yeah, it's amazing.
And and very long standing relationships with employers have been,
you know, To underpin that. So yeah, we know it's possible.

S1 (57:36):
I was going to say when you talk about role models,
there it is. Uh, in a nutshell.

S12 (57:41):
Yeah, absolutely. And um, Phil Tuckman who, who, uh, built
this service up from the ground, you know, he's been
an amazing supporter of employment services for people with disability
over that 40 year period. And now I'm watching lots
of employers arriving as well. So today to celebrate the birthday.
So yeah, the fact that those employers have been, you know,

(58:02):
willing to give up their time to come today just
shows that that there really is a strong relationship between
the the job support agency and employers they work with.

S1 (58:10):
That's a bit of a cliche, but if for some
thing or some organisation has been around for 40 years,
they must be doing some things right.

S12 (58:17):
Yeah, absolutely. And and it does actually lead me to
another change in the system. So we do have a
new program called Inclusive Employment Australia which started on the
1st of November. So many of your listeners will be
familiar with the acronym Des. So we're not using that
language anymore. We've changed to Inclusive Employment Australia, and there
are a number of what are called specific cohort providers,

(58:40):
which we would call them specialists. And a couple of
them are vision for people who are blind or have
low vision specifically. So it's worth people who are looking
for a job provider. It's worth having a look to
see whether those specific providers are operating where you live,
because those providers are blindness and low vision organisations who've

(59:01):
got deep, very deep knowledge and understanding about what supports
people need.

S1 (59:05):
Jenny, a bit of a question without notice. Any idea
what sort of percentage of the population that has a
disability that would like to be employed isn't employed? I mean,
we get figures bandied around all the time. Have you
got any thoughts about that?

S12 (59:17):
Well, we believe there's 2 million people of working age
in Australia who identify as having a disability, and we
know that they have about double the unemployment rate of
people without disability, so around about 7 or 8%. But
we also know that for some cohorts. So people with
intellectual disability would be one example. They're actually not counted

(59:38):
because they, um, are not technically listed as unemployed. So
there's also a big cohort of people who are not here.
They're not in the labour market at all. So there's
probably another half a million of those.

S1 (59:50):
And there's probably a lot of yeah, that's for sure.
And there's probably those people that, you know, maybe they
tried for a while and then given up, or maybe because,
you know, there's such a a negative feel about it,
depending on who they speak to and I guess their
surrounds etc.. You know, they probably don't even enter into
the statistics either.

S12 (01:00:07):
No, that's right. And I think the problem we've had
in Australia for many years is this, uh, focus on compliance.
And so for people who don't have mutual obligation, you
are not subject to mutual obligation. Employment services have really
dropped away for that group. So we're really hoping to
see in this new program, uh, there's about 15,000 places
available in the new program for people who either have

(01:00:29):
a under eight hour work capacity, so they only want
to work less than eight hours. Uh, and there's another
15,000 people who are not are not eligible for government benefits. So, yeah.
So government is responding to this issue that, uh, people
without mutual obligation have not not been in the system

(01:00:49):
as much as we would have liked.

S1 (01:00:51):
I was going to ask you about that because it's
kind of easy to say, what about the government can't
can't the government do something about it? Can't the government
do more? And this is a bit of an on
going discussion that we've had in South Australia with our
Minister for Human Services, Nat Cook, who's kind of undertaken
to have more people employed, even just in her own department.
I guess we need that kind of well, I guess

(01:01:12):
the whole of government, whole of community approach.

S12 (01:01:14):
Yeah, absolutely. And we need to start early. So, uh,
for young people who are blind or low vision, you know,
we want them to do work experience. We want them
to have good career advice. We want them to, uh,
going to pay for university or apprenticeships or traineeships. So
we want them to have that very typical pathway that
other students have. So it's important for schools to be

(01:01:37):
building expectations, not about work that people work. And that
work should be the expectation. And doing that with families
and with with young students themselves. So that will be
a focus of our centre as well. Is that early
career as early career steps that are so critical, but
that so many young people miss out on if they
have a disability?

S1 (01:01:56):
Well, it's like you touched on earlier when you saw
people walking in that have been employed for 20 or
30 years. I mean, you know, I know not necessarily
if you're blind or low vision, but you can't be
what you can't see or you can't be what you
can't hear about. So it's the sort of thing that, uh,
as I say, it can be a, an ongoing thing
that can be really important as far as, uh, people

(01:02:18):
sort of, you know, seeing those that have gone before them.

S12 (01:02:20):
Yeah, absolutely. And, um, we'll be running some communities of
practice next year, and we've already flagged that one of
them will be around assistive technology. So we'll be looking
to some of the leaders who are blind to allow
themselves to come and run those sessions for us. So
that will be a really great opportunity for the providers

(01:02:41):
and others to see, as you said, really, you know,
strong role models and people using technology in their in
their day to day life.

S1 (01:02:48):
So this is really only a start. Jenny.

S12 (01:02:49):
Yes, we're at the start line. Exactly right. Our online
hub has been live for 20 days now, and we're
already getting a lot of traffic to the site. So
we'll be working with different groups. And I was actually
with all the providers yesterday at a forum, and we
spent an hour working through what, what our resources and
tools they'd like to see on the site. So they've
got some really clear ideas about what they think would

(01:03:11):
help them to do better.

S1 (01:03:12):
And I guess they're always open to feedback.

S12 (01:03:14):
Absolutely. And we will be working with blind citizens. Australia
will be one group will be working with. I mean,
we've already added the eye to a future resource that
this was Australia. That's now on our hub. So they've
given us permission to share that. So yeah that's a
great resource. And we came off that when we were
looking for things. And they've kindly agreed to share that.

(01:03:35):
So if any of your listeners want to find that
that's now on our hub as well.

S1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, we've spoken about that program in the past on
the program as well. Jenny, I know you're really busy,
so thank you for making time. Just enjoy the party. And, uh, well,
the party's just getting started. The party's just getting started
in more ways than one.

S12 (01:03:53):
Absolutely. And look, I'm very keen to keep coming onto
your program. This update that's been pan out. So I'll
be very pleased to come back on.

S1 (01:04:01):
So we'd love to have you back. Thanks, Jenny.

S12 (01:04:03):
Thank you Peter.

S1 (01:04:04):
That's Jenny Crosby there from the centre for Inclusive Employment.
It's a great name too, isn't it? And we'll put
those details up, their show notes. And as always, if
you have any difficulty accessing them, please give us a
call here at the radio station and we can pass
them on.

S7 (01:04:19):
On the Australia Network through your favorite podcast service on
1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide. You're listening to leisurely.

S1 (01:04:29):
Well, it's beginning to feel a lot like Christmas. It
must be because Santa is ready to take our call,
particularly for a youngster. Let's find out a bit more
about and speak to Dan Lucas from Telstra. Dan, great
to catch up. Thanks for your time.

S13 (01:04:41):
Good morning mate. Merry Christmas to you and all your listeners.

S1 (01:04:44):
Thank you very much. I think you're the first person
who wished me that. So you're on the board as
far as that goes. Hey Dan, this is a fantastic initiative.
And I mean, it's got a sort of a serious
message behind it as well.

S13 (01:04:55):
Yeah, well, why don't I start with the fun stuff.
Santas out of office is officially off the shelves. Have
turned that off, and he's taking calls all over the
country again for young kids to put in their wish list.
And it's just a really amazing initiative that we've been
running for a few years now. It's going from strength
to strength. We've had over 1.5 million calls to the

(01:05:16):
North Pole since we launched, so lots of funny banter
with Santa And teaching young kids all over Australia a
really important life skill as well. And that is how
to dial a number on a phone.

S1 (01:05:26):
That's so important because I guess, you know, today a
lot of kids might not even be aware of the
those sort of phones are around. But, you know, in
an emergency that could be literally life saving.

S13 (01:05:37):
That's right Pete. And yeah, you know, a lot of
kids these days might call mum and dad. They might
ask Siri, they might just click a button, you know,
face time. So they're not familiar with dialing an analogue phone.
So yeah, it's just fantastic. And it's also fun. You
dial hash. Ho ho ho. Yeah. And that gets you
through to the big man. And then you can have
a really fun conversation with him.

S1 (01:05:57):
Well, that has to be the best number in the world,
wouldn't it? Yeah. Not everyone can have that phone number.

S13 (01:06:03):
That's right. There's only one person in the world that
can have that phone number and and look, it's great.
Kids can access these phones all over the country. There's
14,000 of them. So I'm sure everyone in their local
community sort of knows where one is nearby. If you don't,
you can jump on our website and there's a locator
to find your closest Telstra phone and and yeah so
it's really accessible and great for kids all over the country.

S1 (01:06:25):
And I mean it's like we kind of touched on
I mean it is so important because you know, sometimes
if either your phone's gone flat or you haven't got
coverage or whatever, you know, this might be the only
way of communicating, like in ordinary circumstances, of course. Hi, hi, hi.
Works all the time. But, you know, in other circumstances.

S13 (01:06:43):
Yeah. That's right. Phone's out of battery. Or you just
find yourself in a scenario where you where you need
to make a quick call. We made all these phones
free in 2021. And and we've seen huge numbers. Over
25 million free calls have happened since 2021, since we
made the phone calls free. And and that includes about
300,000 to 000 and other emergency services. So they are

(01:07:05):
a really important part of Australian life. You know.

S1 (01:07:08):
That's very topical in this day and age that 000.
So it's good to know that, you know it's working
in that sort of circumstance. And but what about I
mean I guess he can't kind of monitor how old
the kids are. I'm just thinking, Dan, if if I, uh,
got to my, uh, closest phone and the hash for six, four, 646.
Oh ho ho ho. Santa doesn't really know how old

(01:07:29):
I am. Does. Yeah, I could probably still get through.

S13 (01:07:31):
Oh, absolutely. Um. There's this. The chair and Santa's magic
is open for everyone. And we would encourage all people
to give him a call. Yeah, you can put your
wish list in. I'm not sure how lucky you'll be, but, um,
you know, that's up to him, I guess. Him and
the elves and Mrs. Claus.

S1 (01:07:48):
Well, I think it depends on how good I've been.
And I think I've been really good, but I'm probably
a bit subjective there. And when did this open? When
did this? Up and running now.

S13 (01:07:57):
Up and running now. All the public phones are live
right now. Santa's taking calls. And then in the first
week of December, for the first time ever, we're going
to bring that experience into our all of our stores
as well. So there's 280 stores across the country. There's
going to be a really cool Santa phone right at
the front of the store where you can go in
to call in from our stores to yeah, the elves
are busy 3D printing those at the moment, and they'll, um,

(01:08:20):
they'll be in the stores first week of December.

S1 (01:08:23):
I'm not sure how much of what you said to
take serious. Dan, you seem to be, uh, having a
lot of fun with this, which is great. And I mean,
I get again, you know, it's that message and in
the stores and, I mean, if you've got young kids
and a parent or a carer that might be with
them can kind of point out how important this could be.
And if you're a grandparent, perhaps you said, this is
the way we used to do it in our day.
This is the only way we did it in our day.

S13 (01:08:44):
That's right. Well, they're not quite the rotary phones, if
you remember. I do remember them from my early days.
They're they're the push button ones. But yes, the ones
in the stores are the push button ones too. So
you still learn that important life skill in the stores
or on the phones?

S1 (01:08:59):
Yeah. Well, it's a great message. And of course it's
absolutely free. We've got to point that out and get
on Telstra for kind of funding. It is a service
that costs absolutely nothing.

S13 (01:09:08):
Yeah. Thanks mate. We appreciate it. And um, want to,
you know, hope all your listeners get out there, make
a call, have some fun, and put in some weird
and wacky requests to Santa.

S1 (01:09:19):
So no need to register. No need to sign up anywhere.
You don't need an email address or phone number. Uh. Just, uh.
Ho ho ho. And away you go. Hashtag. That's right. Yeah.

S13 (01:09:28):
Ho ho ho! That's right. Very easy. No sign up process.
Just go and have fun with it.

S1 (01:09:33):
All right. Well, I think you had over 100,000 last year,
so I'm sure you'll probably break that. I think that
idea about being in stores is sensational. That's a great initiative.
So I'm sure that'll be very well received because of course,
that time of the year and shopping centers, uh, you'll
be overrun.

S13 (01:09:48):
That's right. Busiest time of year for us. Magical time
of year. Really fun. We love Christmas time, and this
is just a great way to celebrate it.

S1 (01:09:56):
Yeah, great to catch up. Thanks for your time.

S13 (01:09:58):
Thanks, mate. See you later. Merry Christmas.

S1 (01:10:00):
I said down the cars there from Chester. It's about
the hash. Ho ho ho. Phone number for its operating
right now from any, uh, public phone and, uh, in
stores in Tulsa from the first week of December as well.

(01:10:22):
Regularly to Doctor Anne Marie Witherow about Deafblindness dual sensory loss.
And Marie, welcome back.

S14 (01:10:29):
Pleasure to be here, Peter, as always.

S1 (01:10:31):
Now you've got your conference coming up, which is very exciting.
And one of the things that it'll be doing is
featuring some wonderful, accessible artwork.

S14 (01:10:39):
That's right. Um, that's one thing we really wanted to
highlight today, that at the conference on the 27th and
28th of November at the University of Sydney, that one
of our amazing coups of the century is getting Vicki
Hamilton and her incredible traveling art show about visual hallucinations,

(01:11:01):
and in particular, Charles Bonnet syndrome, which is visual hallucinations
in people with low vision of any cause plus or
minus hearing loss that Vicky will be able to show
in a myriad of wonderful, multimedia, multi-mode ways. What this

(01:11:25):
the stories of her participants and what they mean. Over
to you, Vicki.

S1 (01:11:30):
Yeah. Vicki, welcome and thank you so much for speaking
to us. Tell us a bit about how your interest
in this started.

S2 (01:11:35):
Oh, hi, Peter. Thanks so much for inviting me to
talk to you. It's come from lived experience, my interest
in Charles Bonnet syndrome. Um, I really wanted to show
friends and family and the medical doctors what it's like
to go through having a visual hallucination because they're so

(01:11:57):
hard to explain to somebody. And often when you do
tell somebody, oh, I've been seeing these things, they just
sort of look at you with a strange sort of
quizzical Look on their face. You know it's not purple
monsters over there. And what are you talking about?

S1 (01:12:16):
Yeah. Vicki, I think what we'll do is because obviously
we're on restricted time, we'll chat about your exhibition and
we'll get you back another time to more specifically talk
about Charles Bonnet, because it's a fascinating topic, which I'm
sure we can make a at least one interview out of.
So tell us about your artwork. So you've kind of
turned this into a literary, an art form.

S2 (01:12:37):
Yeah. Well, the exhibition is part of the research that
I'm doing. I'm doing a creative PhD at Queensland College
of Art and design. So the artwork, uh, I created
doing co-creation with participants from around the world, from England

(01:12:58):
and America, Canada and Australia, started with a survey, went
into focus groups and interviews and then, um, 13 participants
ended up co-creating their visions, and we made a video
and then some tactile artworks to visualize what it's like

(01:13:22):
to have Charles Bonnet syndrome.

S1 (01:13:25):
Has it kind of, um, quote unquote been released yet?
Has it shown yet? Is this the first time it'll
be shown back in?

S2 (01:13:31):
Oh, it was the end of April, May at the
Project Gallery at Queensland College of Art and Design in Brisbane.
Had a short exhibition then, which was wonderful. It was
the first time I've ever exhibited before I've actually got
a background in architecture and design, so this is sort

(01:13:52):
of a new direction for me going into the video.
Tactile works. So yeah, it was showing once before, but
coming down to Sydney is very exciting.

S1 (01:14:04):
Uh, the big smoke. What sort of response did you get? Because, um,
I guess, you know, people that, uh, may have Charles
Bonnet kind of know it, and maybe they find it
hard to express it or for other people to believe it.
But what about when kind of the general public sphere
does it kind of help maybe get the message across
in a way?

S2 (01:14:22):
Yeah, definitely. Because it's it's not often heard about Charles,
but a lot of people have no idea that this
even exists. You know, even though, you know, I think
the most recent numbers are 1 in 10 people with
vision loss, you know, do have CBS. So I think

(01:14:42):
most people haven't even heard about it. I think one
of the best things that feedback from that exhibition was
the accessibility. Every image had a QR code which linked
to audio descriptions that had transcripts as well. And, you know,
tactile strips underneath so you could find the QR codes.

(01:15:06):
So that was really nice that people responded to that
because you know, it's quite it's becoming more so that
you find these things in exhibitions. Or if you go
to an exhibition, there might be a couple of things
that are accessible, but they're not commonplace.

S1 (01:15:25):
What about the tactile side of it? People can actually
feel the work and and what what will people be feeling?

S2 (01:15:31):
Um, well, one of the visions is a kaleidoscope of tigers. Um,
and so I did a 3D print. That's it's about
36cm by 36cm, and I can't remember exactly how many

(01:15:54):
of these miniature little tigers are in there, but yeah,
that's one that you can pick up and feel and.
Then it sort of is to be read, you know,
by your tactile, tactile thinks the word together with the
transcripts or the audio description. So to sort of to

(01:16:16):
go together with so that you get the whole feel
of what the vision is like.

S1 (01:16:23):
What about the role that Braille plays and where he
touched on the fact that, uh, Braille was kind of
featured as well, or is part of this as well?

S2 (01:16:31):
Anne Marie, you might be able to help me out
with that one.

S14 (01:16:35):
Yeah. Well, we wanted, um, we're going to have some
Braille next to some of the models. And remember too,
that there's all this artwork comes from the stories and
the experiences of the participants. So we're going to have
some braille stories and little braille labels and things so

(01:16:57):
that people are able to who who Her used by
are able to be included.

S1 (01:17:03):
Vicki, what about a faras you talked about from different countries,
people being part of the the exhibition if you like,
or their contribution through their, uh, focus groups etcetera. Is
it different for different people in different countries in terms
of what they've contributed? How how sort of country different
is it? Or is there a very much a common

(01:17:24):
theme that runs through it?

S2 (01:17:25):
Well, that's an interesting question, Peter. There are common themes
as far as the vision go, and it's interesting. Some
people are very involved with the co-creation when it came to,
you know, making the creative works, because I created a

(01:17:46):
website and I sort of would feed back from the
initial descriptions of visions, and I'd make up an image
or a description for some of the people that were
in the groups where had a complete sight loss. No
sight whatsoever. But I sort of we sort of have
this back and forth conversations about what was being made. Um,

(01:18:11):
is this right? Is this wrong? To get the words
to a point that everybody will be happy with. There's
a few kaleidoscopes going on, and I think, you know,
one of the participants sort of said, oh, well, she
just loved Kaleidoscopes when she was a child. She thought
that was a link. But the, um, you know, neurologists

(01:18:34):
and neuro ophthalmologists sort of 100% think it's to do
with a certain part of the brain in the occipital lobe.
That is a link. And the reason behind kaleidoscopes. So,
you know, a lot of people that have Charles Bonnet
syndrome see soldiers and, um, images from the World War two. And,

(01:19:00):
you know, they wonder why there's these sort of common
themes coming through. And it's a lot to do with,
you know, in my opinion, it's linked to memories and
feelings that are connected back through. But I'm not saying
that it's CBS's to do with feelings, but it's whatever

(01:19:21):
your mind brings up to fill these gaps and voids
in the site at that time. And because your mind
is wandering and it's filling things in.

S1 (01:19:32):
It's a bit about the, the, the video. So this
is people speaking or give us a bit more information
about kind of how the video plays out or videos
play out.

S2 (01:19:41):
Yeah, the videos are a collection and it's um, the
13 participants and it's their own stories told. The video
lasts from end to end for 15 minutes.

S1 (01:19:52):
Yeah.

S2 (01:19:53):
And yeah, they're really quite beautiful. Some of them are very,
quite funny. Um, some of them are quite scary. And
the voices, because, you know, the people from around the world,
I've used computer audio to recreate the voices. And you
can't really tell that they're not humans where. But some

(01:20:13):
of the participants recorded their own voices and sent them through.
So it's a mixture of, um, techniques. Uh.

S1 (01:20:23):
Vicky, we're rapidly running out of time. Obviously, it's great
for people who are able to get there either, uh,
late next week or, um, December the 3rd. What about it?
Particularly with things like the video and indeed the exhibition itself,
is there something that you might think about kind of
taking it on the road? I know you said earlier
this year it was on as well, but would you
think about going to other states or would you think

(01:20:44):
about kind of making it accessible as a uh, as
far as the videos go, like as in sort of
openly accessible.

S2 (01:20:52):
Oh, I would love to travel around and we'd love
to go down to South Australia and to Perth. A
couple of my participants are from down that way. I
have got a website that's, um, I've used for the research, which,
you know, once I've completed it, I will turn that
into like a gallery website. It'll be a repository for

(01:21:14):
all of the work at the moment. Um, you can
sort of see bits of images, but you can't see
the full experience.

S1 (01:21:23):
Have you got the website handy there? Can you give
it to us over the radio, or do you want
to send it to me and we'll put up with
our show notes?

S2 (01:21:29):
It's, um, CBS visions.com. That's the visions v I s
I o n.com.

S1 (01:21:41):
Terrific. Well, Anne Marie, thank you for introducing us to Vicky.
And Vicky. Thank you for coming on board. We'll put
some of the details up with our show notes in particular.
As far as the conference goes, we've done that before,
so we can certainly do that. And, uh, Vicki, if
I may be a bit bold, maybe, uh, keep your
details and get you back to talk a bit more
sort of specifically about Charles Bonnet as well in the

(01:22:03):
in the future. That would be great.

S2 (01:22:04):
Thanks so much for having me, Peter. It's lovely to
meet you and Marie.

S1 (01:22:08):
Thank you for your time. And there's a spot out
there for finding Vicki for us.

S12 (01:22:12):
Pleasure. Goodbye.

S1 (01:22:14):
Doctor. Anne Marie Withrow and artist Vicki Hamilton. They're talking
about the exhibition coming up, um, during the dual Sensory
loss conference in Sydney next week, and also for International
Day for people with disabilities, December the 3rd. Some headlines.

(01:22:35):
The women's Australian bi cricket team, playing in the first
World Cup, playing against India in a semi-final, literally as
we speak. We'll talk more about that on the program
next week. Good luck girls basketball the rollers winning gold
in Thailand. Congratulations to them. The gliders winning bronze. Congratulations
to them. More information on the program next week. About that.

(01:22:59):
A couple of quotes before we go. Alex has sent
a quote through from Abraham Lincoln. He says, whatever you are,
be a good one. Thanks, Alex, for sending that through
all the way from Maine in the US of A
and the one from Stephen who says, today I am
older than I've ever been. Today I am as young

(01:23:23):
as I'll ever be. So, Stephen, thank you so much
for that one birthday. Before we go. Wonderful. Belinda Hellyer
from Brewed by Belinda. The brew. That is true. Find
out more. Brewed by Belinda. Having a birthday. Visit us
some great work, particularly in the area of helping out
organizations that work with arts and people with disabilities. So, Belinda,

(01:23:45):
happy birthday. We'll catch up with you in a couple
of weeks. Thanks so much for your help. Pam Green,
thanks so much for your support. James and Kev, thanks
so much for your expertise putting the program to air.
Really appreciate that and reminding you that listening is available
wherever you get your favorite podcast. Kelly friends throughout the program.

(01:24:06):
That'll be wonderful if you're listening through 1190 7 a.m.
in Adelaide, coming up very soon. Vicki Cousins with Australian Geographic.
Don't touch that dial. Be kind to yourselves. Be thoughtful
and look out for others. All being well, let's look
back at the same time next week on Vision Australia
Radio and the Reading Radio Network. This is leisurely.

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