23 Aug 2025

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:14):
Hi, my name is Kane Perez. Paralympic cyclist. Ready for
the para cycling track World Championships in Rio, Brazil. And
you're listening to leisure link with Peter Greco on the
Vision Australia radio network.

S2 (00:48):
It's just gone 5:00 as I welcome you all to
leisure link here on Vision Australia Radio 1190 7 a.m.
Adelaide online at Via radio via Radio Digital Adelaide in
Darwin through the Community Radio Plus app. Look for Vision Australia,
Radio Adelaide your favourite podcast or streaming service. Our friends
listening through 103.9 FM in Esperance in Western Australia. Also,

(01:13):
if you're listening to the Reading Radio Network, hello to
you and you can find out much more about Disability
Media Australia at Powered Media. Also, you can get leisure
link there. Thank you for your support. This program coming
to you from Garner Land. Peter Greco saying wonderful to
be here. Thank you for making time to tune in.
Coming up on the program, we'll speak to cane, Paris

(01:35):
Paralympic cyclist and also about to star in a movie.
We'll also catch up with Tasha Ovens talking wheelchair basketball
back from South Africa. We'll catch up with Heidi Geronimo,
the deputy leader in the upper house for the Liberal Party.
Talk about cost of living, talk about support for Bedford
and a few other things. We'll also be joined by

(01:56):
Professor Vlado Perkovic, who's going to talk about Ozempic and
the fact that it is now available and being cleared
by the TGA for people with kidney conditions. So we'll
hear much more about that. Sounds really important. Sounds maybe
good news. Professor Anthony Harris will join us from Monash University.
The Disability Wellbeing Index is something they've been working on

(02:20):
in consultation with other people with disabilities, so we'll find
out about that. Darren Pauli will join us from Telstra.
Cyber security is Dan's topic and Juliet Middleton will join
us from Live Big. Always lots of good things to
talk about. Today it's occupational therapy and how they can
help you connect with your kids. Well, first time we've

(02:42):
spoken to Katy Perry's Paralympian who went to Paris and
is now shortly off to Rio. Not for the Paralympic
Games for a world championship. Kate, great to meet you.
Thanks for your time and welcome.

S1 (02:52):
Hi Pete, it's great to be here with you and
a big hello to all of your listeners as well.

S2 (02:56):
Now, your career has been interesting. Like most of our athletes,
you were discovered at a talent ID day.

S1 (03:01):
Yeah, it's been a bit of a bit of a
different journey for me in terms of entry into Paralympic sport. Um,
I've always loved training in the gym and being a
massive advocate for for exercise and movement as a whole. Um,
and I was was at a bit of a loss
during 2019, 2020 was was kind of looking for something
that could challenge me in a different way. And I

(03:22):
saw that the WA Institute of Sport waist was putting
on a talent ID day. Um, and I thought, why
not have a crack jump in? Um, and turns out
I got some pretty strong legs from all my time
in the gym. So, um, yeah, really enjoyed that experience
of going in and kind of challenging myself at that level. And, um,
with my brother Chad Parris, who's also a Paralympian as well.

(03:44):
I knew I knew what it took, and I knew
that I was ready for the next step and the
next challenge. And and here we are five years later,
after competing at a Paralympic Games and now preparing for
a World Championships, too.

S2 (03:55):
Did you think cycling was the sport for you? Because
of course, Chad is a sprinter.

S1 (03:59):
Well, I'm a sprint cyclist on the velodrome, so, uh,
clearly we're a sprinting family, and I never thought that
cycling would actually be a possibility for me because growing
up with a vision impairment, um, we're always told that
it wasn't really safe for us to ride a bike.
And and it is such a powerful opportunity riding on
a tandem bike to, to be able to compete in

(04:20):
an event that otherwise I wouldn't be able to do
without the opportunity on the tandem bike, and to have
a sighted pilot on the front of the bike to.

S2 (04:28):
Just about your pilot, because that must be a good
relationship and obviously a trusting relationship on both sides.

S1 (04:33):
Yeah, Luke and I are very, very close. Luke Zachariah,
very experienced track cyclist, um, took up the opportunity on
on the tandem in 2018 and has um, has piloted
for a few athletes now. And Luke and I have
been together through my whole career on the bike as
well for the last five years. And, and we've been
through a lot together on our journey. And, and that

(04:56):
is what makes our connection on the bike so special
is the journey that we've been on together. And now
we are two teammates with a shared goal of of
standing on the podium at whatever competition we're at, but
we're also just two very, very close mates now that
that have this, have this shared target. And we absolutely
love what we do together. And um, yeah, the definition

(05:16):
of mateship.

S2 (05:17):
Terrific. Now you chatted about the fact that you went
to Paris in 2024, which is great. You were on
target for Tokyo and then, uh, things went a bit wrong.

S1 (05:26):
Yeah. Well, I would say, yeah, we were on target.
We were kind of looking at it with one eye going, oh,
there's a chance here. When? When Covid delayed the games,
it definitely wasn't an opportunity for us during 2020. But
the announcement of it being delayed, that did hurt a
lot of people in terms of their opportunity through the
next year, but it actually opened up a bit of
a potential for us, considering that I had only just

(05:48):
come into the sport. Um, but unfortunately I had quite
a serious back injury in that preparation where I wasn't
quite ready to be competing at that level yet. And
we're almost trying to move things a little bit too
quickly for what my body was ready for. And, um,
my lower back said, no thank you. Um, and that
put me out of action for quite a while. Which,
which then we waved goodbye to the, the potential of

(06:10):
of Tokyo. But but for me, I had I had
the long term view in mind knowing that Tokyo. It
would have been pretty special to get there. But but
we had the long term view in mind, and that's
where we just got we knuckled down, got stuck into
the really hard work over the whole journey through the
the lead up to the Paris cycle and then ultimately
making the Paralympic Games as well. It kind of made

(06:31):
it a lot more special in a way.

S2 (06:33):
Did it make you stronger as well? I guess you
had to dig into your resistance toolkit.

S1 (06:37):
Yeah, you're exactly right. I think, having faced some serious
challenges around Non-selection multiple times early in my career and
and serious injuries, amongst amongst lots of other challenges too,
I think I built, I built these really foundational strengths
of resilience and determination that really pushed me forward. That

(06:57):
meant that that I had such a toolkit of how
to deal with, with profound challenge. So there were massive
challenges that that led up to the Paris Games even
during 2024. We went across to World championships last year
and had a had a massive crash on the track
at over 65km an hour. And I think having been
through such hardship, um, through those early years of my career,

(07:22):
but also growing up as a child with a disability
as well, really meant that I could lean on some
of those strategies that I'd developed and, and thought, how
can I control the controllables of this situation, this really
challenging situation, and then absolutely let go of the rest
to be able to, to to focus on what I
could do, which was getting fit, strong, ready and preparing

(07:44):
and then selected for the games.

S2 (07:46):
I mean this in the most respectful way. I was
having a bigger brother who had been to the Paralympics,
both a help and a hindrance.

S1 (07:53):
Uh, look, I would say it was it's always been
a help, right? Like like having Chad by my side
through my whole journey has been so, so powerful. Chad's
been my, like, personal sporting consultant, basically. He was he
was the one that I could get on the phone
to when I was having a bad day and say,
look like, this is this is the challenge that I'm having.

(08:14):
And knowing that he's got that lived experience through through
his sporting like very long and successful sporting career, he
was able to draw on his experience and and provide
me with that, that peer support. And he was he
was also the one that could be a bit firm
with me too and say like, come on, mate, like
you need to, you need to pull your finger out
here and and get back to work. Because there was,

(08:37):
there was a moment where, like, I was really down
in the dumps during my injury and he's like, he's like,
come on, mate, you'll be fine. You'll get back. Look,
look at the bigger picture here, which is leading towards
the Paris Games. And if anybody else said that to me,
I'd probably tell them to get stuffed. Right. But like
having Chad there by my side, he was the one
that could be a bit firm as well. And I'm

(08:58):
the sort of person that really needs that.

S2 (09:00):
Now you're a training camp at the moment. What are
you getting ready for?

S1 (09:04):
Yeah, we're in, uh, sunny Melbourne today. It's been a
very cold week. Uh, earlier in the week, but it's
it's turned it on today. The Victorian weather. Perfect blue sky.
I'm sitting out here, um, right now. Um, yeah. Preparing
for the track world Championships in Rio, Brazil. And obviously
last year we, we did go to Rio, same track
and had quite a big crash. So, um, it's a

(09:25):
bit of a redemption mission for us, but we've just
spent some time over here in Melbourne working with the, the, um,
women's tandem, Jess Gallagher and, uh. Oh, yeah. And I know,
I know you've had Jess on the show before. Yeah. Um, yeah.
So had spent a bit of time with them because
there's quite a bit of technical work that goes into
one of our mixed team events that we do with
the women's tandem. Um, and we rarely get the opportunity to,

(09:48):
to train with them because we're on the other side
of the country. So we've been very fortunate enough to
be able to satisfy some time in our prep to
come across and and get stuck in for a week
and kind of break up the long winter grind as well.

S2 (10:01):
How does that mix event work?

S1 (10:03):
So on the velodrome, the track is 250m and the the,
the women come out of the gate and do a
standing start, and we start up the track alongside them
and they come out of the gate and do 500m.
So two laps of the track. Um, and then as
they're coming through at the end of their second lap,
they'll pull up the track and we'll come through and

(10:25):
do one lap and it's, it takes a total time
of the three laps. Um, so, so basically you've got
a mixed, uh, a mixed team of a men's tandem
and a women's tandem taking the total time of three laps.

S2 (10:38):
And seconds wise or minute wise. That wouldn't be very long,
would it?

S1 (10:42):
Yeah. So so we did we did a 49 point
something at nationals, which was uh, which was very, a
very competitive time and a very exciting time for us
knowing that if we can, if we can build on
what we did in March with the same team, um,
with a bit of work, which is what we're here
in Melbourne for right now. Like, we're we're a big chance.

(11:03):
We're a big chance to win. So, um, it's yeah,
it's a really exciting opportunity and I've just. Yeah, just
loved working with the team and, um, looking forward to
seeing what we can do over there.

S2 (11:12):
It's kind of like a bit of a baton change
without a baton.

S1 (11:15):
Well, it's exactly that. The the, um, exchange at the
end of that second lap is, is the crucial part
for the team sprint for us, um, making sure that
we manage that and get that right, because once you
start accelerating a tandem bike that's almost 200 kilos with
your two humans on it, it's not stopping. So you
really have to manage, manage the acceleration and make sure

(11:36):
that we don't cross the cross the line before they
do at the end of their second lap. Otherwise we
get dq'd. So, um, it's very much, very much cut
and dry that event, whether whether it's a good exchange
or not. So that's all the work that we're doing
this week.

S2 (11:50):
Well, keep an eye out for that. I came you
sent me a very interesting link to a YouTube clip. Uh,
a trailer for a film coming up. Tell us a
bit about this.

S1 (11:58):
Yeah. So at the Paris Paralympic Games, Ara films. Ara
is a is a large construction, um services company that
is our primary sponsor for of cycling. They, they put
put forward a proposal to build a powerful documentary about
the para cycling team and their journey to Paris. So
we had a film crew with us at our staging

(12:20):
camp in, in Bordeaux and then. And then in Paris
at the games as well, kind of showcasing our journey
and what it takes to to get to the Paralympics.
And the documentary that we have been featured in is
is less about the performance aspect of, of cycling itself.
So if you're not a cycling fan, like, like tune

(12:40):
in because it's less about the bike riding and more
about the stories of resilience and determination that lead to
getting to a Paralympic Games. Because there's the stories are
just so, so powerful? And, um, I was fortunate enough. Well,
Luke and I were both fortunate enough to be selected
to be one of the starring roles in the film. Um,

(13:01):
considering our unique journeys and unique story as a pairing
and the journey that we've been on over the last
couple of years. And, um, I've absolutely loved the opportunity
to be in front of the camera and in front
of the microphone and, and, and share my story. And
I'm looking forward to the platform. And I was a
big advocate for, um, full audio description for the film
as well, which I know the production team have, have

(13:23):
worked really hard on to, um, and I, we've had
a private screening last week with.

S2 (13:29):
Okay.

S1 (13:30):
With some vision impaired individuals who've given us incredible feedback
on the audio description of the film, too. And, um,
coming soon, November, December in cinemas all around Australia. So
look out for that. It's going to be great, and
I'm sure you'll leave a link for your viewers to
the trailer, um, as well to to tune in.

S2 (13:47):
Oh, very powerful, very moving. And yeah, some really emotional moments.
And you're quite right. I mean, you know, when you
win a gold medal, you're up there and politicians are
all around you. We think how cool. But, you know,
there's a story behind that, isn't there?

S1 (13:59):
The story of of the Paralympics is what makes it
so special. And I think I think that's why it's
great that the Paralympic Games is is separate to the Olympics,
because I think that the Olympics and the Paralympics are
two very, very different things. The Olympics are are showcasing
what the human body is capable of. But the Paralympic
Games are are the stories of resilience and determination and

(14:22):
and what has led these individuals to change their track
in life, to be able to build on something bigger
than them. After after dealing with something very challenging, like
growing up with a disability or or serious trauma or
or or whatever it might have been that led to
them finding para sport.

S2 (14:42):
Yeah. And if you've got a child or if you
know someone with a disability and the documentary covers all
types of disabilities. You know, there's there's there's great role
models there. And you can sort of say, well, you know,
this could be you as well. Or, you know, they're
great examples of how the the human spirit can triumph.

S1 (15:01):
Yeah. I think for me, the, the catalyst, I had
a catalyst moment at about 15 years old to find
exercise where where my parents really pushed me to get
off my backside and get out and get moving. And I,
I fell in love with exercise and movement. And it
honestly has changed my life in so many different ways.
And ultimately, that's what led me to to finding parasport

(15:24):
and building towards the Paralympics, because I just became addicted
to movement and how and what a profound positive impact
it has on life. And if a film like Changing
Track can have that impact on on even one person
to be the catalyst for, for for them to get
moving and out and challenge themselves, then then then I'll
be super proud.

S2 (15:43):
Well, you should be super proud of what you've achieved already.
great to catch up. First time we've spoken, I'm sure
it won't be the last. Good luck in Rio. Uh,
keep off Coca Cabana beach, just at least until the
competition is over.

S1 (15:56):
Yeah. Thanks, Pete. It's been great coming on. And thanks
to the listeners for tuning in as well.

S2 (16:01):
That's okay. Paris there. Who's, uh. Uh, well, Paralympian already
been to Paris and looking to get obviously two more
Paralympic Games, but also off very shortly to the World
Championships in Rio. Always plenty happening in the world of
wheelchair basketball, especially lately. Let's catch up with Tasha Ovens
to speak a bit more about it. Tasha, good to

(16:22):
speak to you again.

S3 (16:23):
Yeah. Nice to speak with you again there, Peter.

S2 (16:25):
Now, you're not long back from South Africa.

S3 (16:27):
Yeah, it feels like a whirlwind ago. A while ago,
I think a couple of weeks now. So. Yeah, not
long back, but yeah, it was a good trip.

S2 (16:33):
Where do we go? Well, we went to South Africa.
What was what was the event and how did we go?

S3 (16:36):
So I was there competing for the 3X3 World Cup
in Sun City. Uh, the women finished third and the
men finished fifth. So pretty good for both of us
up there.

S2 (16:46):
So come back with a bronze medal.

S3 (16:48):
Yeah. Bronze medals. Always nice.

S2 (16:49):
Yeah. What about in terms of the performance compared to
what you might have been hoping for? How was it?

S3 (16:54):
I think we performed as sort of as expected disappointed
in that semifinal game. Of course losing it to Spain
to then go into the bronze medal. But overall I
think we played together well, like we came together when
it mattered and really had some fun with the games.

S2 (17:07):
And the men. How did they go? They finished fifth. Uh,
who took that out of the men's division?

S3 (17:11):
Canada finished first for both the men and women. And then?
Then it was Spain for silver, for both men and women,
and then us for bronze for the women. And I
believe Poland for the men were third.

S2 (17:24):
Does that say anything about, I guess, the sport in
those particular countries, Canada and Spain, being right up there
for both men and women?

S3 (17:31):
There's some strong teams and pretty well built for three
on three for Canada and I guess ourselves and a
few of the other teams leading into com games next year.
Getting some prep with the World Cup was really big.

S2 (17:40):
And Sun City in South Africa. What was that like?

S3 (17:43):
Really good. They were a really good host. It's about
a three hour drive out of Johannesburg, so it took
us a bit of time, maybe hour and a half.
Felt like three hours by the time we got there. Um,
went through all the other towns in South Africa and
it was just very contrast in difference when you got
to Sun City. Um, Sun City as itself were a
great host for us. Good food, good accommodation.

S2 (18:04):
What about in terms of accessibility to Asia? What was
that like? You know, with obviously a number of people
using wheelchairs. What was that like?

S4 (18:10):
I think accessibility.

S3 (18:11):
Was overall pretty good. Um, I've definitely been in places
where it's been worse. I think we all manage pretty
well with accessibility and getting around Sun City, which was
really good. We did try to do the maze at
the accommodation. That was probably the least accessible thing, just
being all uphill, but we got partway and then decided
to come back. Didn't want to ruin ourselves before the games.

S2 (18:29):
Can I ask you? You said you've been to some
places that have been worse. What's the least accessible place
you've been to? Can I ask you that, or would
that get you in trouble?

S3 (18:35):
I don't think would get me into trouble. I just
don't think. I think it's just going to like some
of the smaller, like the Asian, more Asian countries like
in Thailand, and stuff like footpaths and stuff aren't always
the best to get up and down. So just the
easier way in that way. So I don't think I'd
get into trouble for saying that.

S2 (18:50):
No. Well, I guess you're probably speaking the truth. And
maybe it's sometimes it's things like Paralympic Games that kind
of raise the awareness of the importance of accessibility.

S3 (18:59):
Yeah, I think so. I definitely think the countries hosting
a Paralympic Games or a World Cup tend to tidy
it up a bit in the lead up.

S2 (19:05):
Well, I know Brisbane obviously spending a lot of energy
in making it as good as it can be, and
I guess part of that is accessibility as well.

S3 (19:11):
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

S2 (19:12):
Okay. So what happens now as far as the women's
Australian team goes, you've won bronze. Where does that put
you in terms of further competition down the track?

S3 (19:20):
There is potentially a qualifiers for com games still to
be ironed out. And just depending on what countries put
in teams for us. But the big one for us
with three on three would be the. Com games next
year leading up to that and preparing, hoping to do
1 or 2 places better than bronze.

S2 (19:37):
Would the countries that were there in South Africa will
probably be there next year. In Scotland.

S3 (19:41):
There'll be a few. Yeah. So the GB team that
we came up against in the bronze medal game, GB
actually sent over two Scottish teams in the lead up
to Glasgow, which is really impressive. So we'll probably see
similar players for both teams there and then Canada and
then South African teams I believe so as well.

S2 (19:56):
Does the come go get you a bit excited Tasha.
Because I mean you know we've been a bit of
a cloud over them over the last few years since
Victoria said no to them. Is it still something that
excites you to just go to games like that? I've
mentioned this before, but if you want to, if you
win a bronze medal or indeed win a gold medal,
that counts to Australia's overall tally.

S3 (20:14):
Yeah, I definitely think it's exciting. Uh, it's a big
year for wheelchair basketball next year with some games and
a World Cup. Yeah, just having three on three at
home games will be a really cool experience.

S2 (20:25):
Now what about are your form and b your position
in the team? How do you feel that goes after this?

S3 (20:30):
Competition is still pretty new for wheelchair basketball, so I
think we're all trying to figure out where we fit
in with the team. I've definitely stated that I would
like to be involved with it in the lead up
for home games and hopefully the two home games, but
depending on combinations of classifications and players that come in
and out, that might change. But it is still a
very new sport, so we're still figuring out where everyone

(20:51):
fits with it.

S2 (20:51):
Well, I won't get you in trouble and ask you
too much more about selection, because I've often said selectors
are a funny breed and we all think we know
more than they do. Well, you probably don't, but I do.
We all think we know more than selectors, and I
guess you've got to respect the decision they make, but
certainly wish you in good stead. And obviously a bronze
medal kind of that can't do the team's chances any harm.

S3 (21:12):
It's in a good place going into next year and
selections for all of it.

S2 (21:15):
Yeah. Well also coming up the next few weeks, the
the finals of the national leagues are on. Um, I
know that perhaps you haven't been all that pleased with
the way you've performed, but you're probably your harshest critic.

S3 (21:26):
Yeah, most likely my harshest critic. Yeah, I think it's
it's been a whirlwind of a season, and it's been
somehow both quick and a fairly long season. Um, but yeah,
we got finals next weekend in Manly in Sydney, so
that should be good. Uh, we come up against Victoria
first in the play off playoffs, and then if we

(21:47):
win that, then we'll play the loser of the two
Sydney's teams game. And then if we win that we'll
hopefully be playing for the gold.

S2 (21:54):
I'm a bit of a sucker for nicknames. The Victorians
have got a little bit of a, uh, a bit
of a precocious nickname for themselves, haven't they?

S3 (22:02):
Uh, the Victorian one is. I think it's.

S2 (22:03):
Something that's a bit rich, isn't it?

S3 (22:05):
No, I think it's gone well for him. Pretty good. Yeah.
They they seem to be a good team coming together,
this new team. So I think it's worked out well
for them all.

S2 (22:13):
Yeah. Well I like the fact that, you know, those
abstract names are pretty cool, aren't they? You know, they're
not an animal or a bird or whatever, but, uh,
a thing like wonder and interesting to read about the
men's team and the men's team from the Northern Territory
obviously had a really good season.

S3 (22:28):
A lot of teams, I guess, will be eyeing them
as a team to beat in the coming into finals. Um,
and yes, hopefully some exciting games there too, with Darwin, Wollongong,
Perth and Spartans making finals.

S2 (22:39):
Now you're obviously not part of that competition. Who would
be your tip there? We won't hold you to it.
So you're okay or would you rather not comment?

S3 (22:47):
Probably not comment. I think I think I think we'll
just hope for some good basketball.

S2 (22:51):
Basketball's the winner. But as I said, I'm a bit
of a sucker for nicknames. And the team from the
Northern Territory being called the Salties. I'm assuming that's after
the saltwater crocodiles.

S3 (23:01):
Yeah, yeah. So the Darwin Salties. Their home court is
called the Crock Pot, though we are all, after all,
the crocs up there yet.

S2 (23:11):
Unfortunately, that's the Sydney one. So unfortunately, they all go
to Sydney because all the matches are in Sydney.

S3 (23:16):
Yeah. They've been travelling.

S2 (23:16):
For the finals in Sydney.

S3 (23:18):
Yeah. So yeah, finals are in Sydney so we'll see
them all there.

S2 (23:20):
Well what about as far as the season overall? We've
had some international players as part of it. I know
as I said, your harshest critic, but overall has the
you think the success of the season has been pretty good.
A bit of a rebranding relaunching this year?

S3 (23:33):
Yeah, I think it's been a good season. I think
having the extra teams, extra games have really helped us
with players like develop, and getting that extra game time
always helps in the lead up to qualifiers and everything.
And I think, yeah, it's been good and I think
having international players come over and play for some teams
to help develop them has been really good.

S2 (23:51):
Because of course you're getting a good competition against very
good athletes. So particularly for young players coming through, they
kind of get to measure their standard or indeed where
they may have to lift to get to the standard
that they'd like to.

S3 (24:02):
Yeah, 100%.

S2 (24:03):
Alright, so the finals start next week. And I think
that there's also information or I'm sure there's information on
the website, but I think games are also on, on
the website as far as being able to watch live go.

S3 (24:14):
Yeah. WBA website will have all the fixtures and games.
They'll also have the links to the live stream, which
will probably be on their YouTube channel.

S2 (24:22):
And that must be a great thing to know that
it doesn't matter where you are. You can if you've
got family or friends that aren't able to get to
Sydney for the competition, they can watch it.

S3 (24:29):
Yeah, yeah, it would be good to know families are
watching it from home.

S2 (24:32):
All right, well, as I said, I know you're your
harshest critic, so I'm sure you'll perform extremely well, because
I just read in some of the information that's been
sent out, they call you an emerging leader. That must
be a nice thing to be held in that company.

S3 (24:45):
It's definitely felt nice to be held in that company,
and definitely a role I've taken on a bit this season,
especially within weights and training in that environment too, and
then getting to then train and play with some of
those girls in the wheelcats too, really helped it.

S2 (24:59):
We'll certainly be keeping an ear and eye out for
the results. We'll let people know how it goes so
they get underway or next weekend, I think on the Friday.
Don't they.

S3 (25:05):
Don't start on the Friday.

S2 (25:07):
Through the weekend. Yeah. Good to catch up. I know
you've got plenty on your plate. So thank you for
speaking to us. Congratulations on the bronze medal. That must
be something pretty special in your collection.

S3 (25:14):
Yes. Pretty good. Everyone at work love seeing it too.
So we've had to bring it in for show and tell.

S2 (25:19):
That's a good thing to do. We'll speak again soon.

S3 (25:21):
Okay. No worries. Thanks.

S2 (25:22):
Peter Evans there. One of the members of the bronze
winning Australian team at the 3X3 competition in Sun City
in South Africa and the National Wheelchair Basketball League. The
finals getting underway next weekend. We'll keep you across all
those details, and I'm sure we'll catch up with some
of the winners the weekend afternoon. We're always very pleased
to welcome to the program, Heidi. She's the deputy leader

(25:46):
of the Liberal Party in the upper house, as well
as being a shadow minister for education, finance, tax reform
and a few other things. Heidi. Great to catch up.
Thanks for your time.

S5 (25:56):
Thank you Peter. Always good to be speaking with you.

S2 (25:59):
Yeah. Heidi, you're actually celebrating a special day Sunday on
the 24th of August.

S5 (26:03):
Yes. That's right. That's my four years in the Legislative Council.
So I was sworn in four years ago, and it's
been a great four years and I've really enjoyed it.

S2 (26:11):
Now you, of course, filled a casual vacancy. So does
that mean you're up for election next year?

S5 (26:16):
Yes. That's correct. So I'll be up for re-election on
the 21st of March. So hoping to put myself forward
for another eight years here.

S2 (26:24):
Terrific. And of course, there's been a little bit of
news in recent days regarding the Liberal Party, and one
of your colleagues has been in the Legislative Council, is
now one of your colleagues is in part of the
Liberal Party.

S5 (26:35):
That's correct. So we've got Frank Pangallo coming on board
officially today, actually. So really looking forward to having Frank
as a member of our team. We've worked very closely
together in the Legislative Council. He's a great man and
good person to advocate for our community and always looking
forward to working closely with Frank.

S2 (26:54):
I think Frank said since being a member, and I
guess he kind of accepted to say this, but he
said there's a lot of potential in the Liberal Party,
and having spoken to, I was working it out before.
I think ten of the members that are in Parliament
at the moment are. I'd agree with that probably. I
guess it's the way that the opposition works. You don't
get much of a chance to kind of show your
wares when you're in opposition. And I guess that's one

(27:14):
of the things about trying to get into government. It's
the it's a bit difficult when you're coming from opposition.

S5 (27:19):
Absolutely. And but we are working hard to make sure
we're highlighting different issues from the government. And also there
are elements that will be bipartisan. There'll be elements that
are more political in nature, but we're certainly working hard
every day to make sure that all voices across South
Australia are heard, and particularly making sure that we're speaking
out when we know that there are issues with what

(27:39):
the government of the day is doing. We're trying to
make sure that we're putting our best foot forward. We're
working on key policies in the lead up to the
election to show good alternative for us and working hard
every day.

S2 (27:51):
There were four known through television in the media over
the years, he said. He's a hard cookie. He doesn't
take no prisoners. But he was a little bit upset
about the Premier's chip at his age. And I've got
to say, being closer to Frank's age than Premier Malinauskas
his age, I kind of agreed with him. What do
you think of that? I mean, I guess in politics
you can say anything.

S5 (28:08):
I think it was an example of ageism at its finest,
and it's very disappointing to see the Premier make such comments.
I think in both parties we've got people with a
range of different age and experience. We've got some that
are very young, we've got some that are older, but
everyone makes their contribution. And I think Frank's got a
lot of energy, a lot more than than most his
age or younger for that matter. So I don't think

(28:29):
that age should matter. And I think the Premier should
be mindful before making comments like that in the future.

S2 (28:34):
Well, actually, I did speak to Nat Cook after that,
who's the Minister for ageing well in South Australia, and
she said she was going to have a word to
the Premier and I said could we broadcast the conversation?
But she didn't like that idea, which is fair enough,
I guess.

S5 (28:46):
But absolutely.

S2 (28:49):
Heidi. Of course, some of the things that have happened
in more recent months, the the sad situation regarding Bedfords
and the rescue package from the state government. What's the
Liberal Party's view on that with Bedfords?

S5 (28:59):
They're just such a key organisation. I think it's important
that they were given that lifeline, but at the same
time making sure that they do have the support that
they can continue on. And the people that are working
there provide fantastic services, but also the importance of being
able to employ people with disabilities and being able to
support them to have a very fulfilling life. And many

(29:20):
of the people at benefits have been there for a
very long time, and it was very concerning when all
of that happened. But I do hope that things head
in the right direction and that everything is able to
continue on there as well.

S2 (29:32):
It sounds like some federal government intervention is going to
be needed.

S5 (29:35):
I think for the long term, there needs to be
the federal support there, but also making sure that they
are able to continue to operate effectively. I think it's
been obviously they've branched out to a lot of different areas. Obviously,
there may well be changes within the leadership of the organization,
but I do think that the federal government needs to

(29:56):
make sure that they're providing the right amount of support
for Bedford and also, from the state perspective, making sure
that this employer is able to, given the support they
need to be able to continue on.

S2 (30:05):
In the intro, I said that you're also a shadow
minister for. Well, I didn't say. I think that your
cost of living a shadow minister and also for education.
I mean, one of the things that happens that I've
kind of gleaned over the years is that particularly parents
of kids with disabilities whilst they're at school say it's great,
but it's kind of okay. Often it's that after school
part of their life that they're most concerned about regarding, say,

(30:28):
employment or day options and that sort of thing.

S5 (30:30):
Exactly right. And I think that's why Bedfords does an
exceptional job in that space, but also within the school system,
you know, everyone's entitled to a good education, and you
would hope kids with disabilities or without disabilities are all
able to have a good time at school and have
the right supports put in place. But you're right, for
a lot of families, that next step after school finishes

(30:51):
can be quite daunting, and having job opportunities at Bedfords
can be an absolute lifeline for many families.

S2 (30:58):
I also get in a past life in a past
short life in politics. You are a shadow spokesman for
the circular economy and of course, the amount of work
that Bedford doing that recycling area is staggering. I've been
fortunate enough to speak to a couple of people involved
with that, and they are literally making a huge difference
in that area. So things like that should be encouraged
and kind of promoted and that deserves a government support

(31:19):
at all levels.

S5 (31:20):
Absolutely, 100%. And I know other organisations like minder as well.
They do a huge amount in that space and it's
just so important, not just from an employment perspective, but
the environmental impact that they're making is quite substantial, and
I hope that it continues on for a long time
to come.

S2 (31:35):
Yeah, we're speaking about the environment, of course, a lot
since March regarding the algal bloom. More and more recent months.
What about the way that particularly the government has handled,
I guess, from a Liberal Party's point of view, the
way you guys have handled it or questioned the government
over some of the actions or non-actions.

S5 (31:51):
Yeah, we've been questioning the government on the algal bloom
for many months, certainly. David Basham, the member out, in fairness,
highlighted this back in March. We've been asking questions. We've
been raising it as a concern. And I think the
reliance was that as soon as the rain came that
it was going to clear. And it's pretty clear that
all that happened, then it spread it right across our
beautiful coastline. And it's particularly concerning now in the Yorke

(32:15):
Peninsula and into parts of the Eyre Peninsula, where we're
really reliant on the seafood and fishing industries there. And
they really do need more support from both the federal
and state government. It is hugely concerning. I was out
recently with our candidate in Gibson, Jane Fleming, who's also
the deputy mayor in holdfast Bay, that there was areas

(32:36):
like Brighton and Hove and right across the metropolitan beaches.
The concerns are will the beaches be open during summer
and what's going to be the potential impact on our businesses?
These businesses do close to 80 or 90% of their
trading over the summer months, and it would be hugely
damaging if they're not able to open. Also hugely concerning

(32:57):
for many South Australian families, where the beach is just
such a brilliant place to go. Obviously it's free as
well for many families who are doing it tough during
the summer months, they're able to get out and about
and enjoy our beautiful coastline, but at the moment we
just do not know what's going to happen. We don't
know how long it's going to last for. And I
think more recently it's become clear that because there wasn't

(33:19):
any action taken in the early stages, it would be
interesting to see whether measures can be put into place
to try and relieve some of this hugely damaging algal
bloom that's happening right across the state.

S2 (33:30):
Your leader was calling for a royal commission. Is that
still the stance for the Liberal Party?

S5 (33:35):
Yes, absolutely. I think the Royal Commission needs to be considered.
We need to have an inquiry into what's gone wrong.
Should action have been taken earlier? There's a lot of
questions around that. And also what measures need to be
put into place in case this happens in the future
as well?

S2 (33:51):
I think if there's one taken or one undertaken, one
would hope that it's pretty speedy, because sometimes these things
can take a long time and the report gets handed in,
the recommendations get made and thus gets gathered.

S5 (34:01):
Absolutely. I think with all royal commissions or all inquiries, actually,
they need to be taking actions straight away and hopefully
that we are able to go down that path, really
to be able to delve into things further and understand
and make sure that measures are put into place. We
know that scientists have been highlighting this as a potential
issue for a number of years now, and that should

(34:21):
have been taken on board then, and we wouldn't be
in this situation now. So we'll certainly continue to call
for the Royal commission into the algal bloom. But at
the same time, we also need supports right now. We
need to make sure that businesses are getting the support
they need. We've also called for travel vouchers similar to
what happened in Covid. We do worry about a lot

(34:42):
of regional areas along the coastline, particularly the peninsula and
also the Yorke Peninsula, where people are cancelling bookings at
the moment and that's really concerning again, when they're very
reliant on that travel during the summer months, we want
to make sure that as many people are able to
get down to the coast over the Christmas break as possible.

S2 (35:02):
Shadow spokesperson for the cost of living at the state
budget was handed down a couple of months ago. Now,
we haven't had a chance to speak to you since then.
Any thoughts regarding the state budget and protect the addressing
of the cost of living issues.

S5 (35:13):
Well, I think the state budget was from a cost
of living perspective, quite disappointing. There wasn't a huge amount
in that budget. We were calling for changes around Essar
water bills, and to be able to come up with
some constructive ideas like that. We didn't see any relief
when it comes to tax relief as well. I think
there's a lot that could be done around cost of living.
Things just keep getting more and more expensive for South Australians,

(35:37):
and there's definitely measures that the state government can do.
Certainly a lot of measures that the federal government can do.
But at the moment, the government's benefiting from record revenue
when it comes to a lot of things like stamp
duty and payroll tax. And I think a lot of
that should be looked at to see whether there's measures
that can be put into place, to be able to
give some of that money back to South Australians who

(35:58):
are doing it incredibly tough.

S2 (35:59):
Marty, we're at a time now. We must speak again
in the not too distant future, because I'm sure there
are policies that are being formulated that you'd like to
let our listeners know about. So we'll have to make
another time to get you back, but it's been really
great catching up with you today. And again, congratulations on
your four year anniversary, and we'll certainly look forward to
the election next year. And you've already got the date
penciled in, haven't you?

S5 (36:19):
Yes, absolutely.

S2 (36:22):
Okay. Great to catch up.

S5 (36:23):
Thanks, Peter. Appreciate it.

S2 (36:25):
That's right. Who's the shadow minister for education, cost of
living and a few other things like tax reform and
finance as well. So great. If you're joining us this afternoon.
We've spent a lot of news out regarding Ozempic and
some more recent news regarding the TGA and maybe it

(36:45):
being suitable for people with kidney conditions. Let's chat about
it with Professor Vlado Perkovic. Vlado from I call you doctor.
Thank you for your time.

S6 (36:53):
Absolute pleasure. Peter, thank you for your interest.

S2 (36:55):
Now tell us about this. As I say, we all
know about. Not all know, but we know a lot
about ozempic, particularly for weight loss and type two diabetes.
But the TGA has made an interesting move during the week.

S6 (37:05):
Yeah. Look, it's a very exciting time for people with
kidney disease. There have been a number of studies of ozempic, semaglutide,
and drugs like it that have looked at their cardiovascular safety,
and in a number of those, there was a suggestion
that it might have some beneficial effects on the kidney.
So a specific trial was run called the flow trial,
which looked at the use of semaglutide once weekly in

(37:27):
people with established diabetic kidney disease. And what that trial
found was that the risk of kidney failure and related
kidney conditions could be reduced by about a quarter, the
risk of cardiovascular events by 18%, and the risk of
death due to any cause by about 20%. So it
was very, very positive news suggesting a range of benefits
for people with diabetes and kidney disease. And what's happened
now is the TGA has reviewed that and decided that

(37:50):
it does indeed warrant and justify the use of ozempic
in people with diabetes and kidney disease to help protect
their kidneys and also other parts of their health.

S2 (37:59):
So in terms of kidney conditions or kidney disease, it's
people who have kidney disease due to type two diabetes.

S6 (38:05):
Yeah, it's people with diabetes and kidney disease. It's very
hard to prove that it's due to diabetes, but it
is in most cases. And so what that means is
that people who have reduced kidney function or significant amounts
of protein in their urine and who have diabetes because
they're the most important markers of kidney disease that we've got,
people who have those conditions should now talk to their
doctor about the treatments that are available to them, because

(38:28):
people with diabetes who also have these markers of kidney
disease are at very high risk of kidney failure, but
also heart attack and stroke. And potentially, if those conditions occur,
that can be a threat to life. So there's now
treatments available to help protect both their kidneys but also
their general health in that circumstance.

S2 (38:45):
And apart from the drug itself, are there other things
that are kind of complemented with the drug to help
with people's health?

S6 (38:51):
Yeah, absolutely. So people with diabetes and kidney disease are
at very high risk of a range of complications. So
it's really important that they eat well, that they exercise
to the extent that they're able to, you know, in
a reasonable way that they look after their general health,
so avoiding smoking, managing cholesterol, etc.. Blood pressure keeping the
blood pressure under control is very important. But now there

(39:11):
are also a number of treatments available, including SMP, which
have been shown to protect kidney function but also reduce
cardiovascular events and extend life in people with diabetes and
kidney disease. And there are at least four separate treatments
now that have been shown to do this. An older
type of blood pressure lowering drug called angiotensin receptor blockers,
which are widely used, have protective effects. A new class

(39:32):
of diabetes drugs called the Sglt2 inhibitors, or the Gliflozins,
also have a protective effect. Another type of drug that
was commonly used for blood pressure called finerenone, and now
most recently, ozempic. So we've got an arsenal of tools
available to help protect the kidneys, but also the general
health of people with diabetes and kidney disease. So for
people with diabetes, it's really important that they get out there,

(39:54):
get to their GP and make sure that they know
what's happening with their kidneys. And if they've got markers
of kidney damage or kidney disease, it's really important that
they ask their GP whether some of these very effective
preventative therapies and protective therapies might be suitable for them.

S2 (40:08):
Because kidney disease is a bit insidious, it kind of
sneaks up slowly.

S6 (40:12):
It's exactly right. Most people with kidney disease have no symptoms.
Sometimes people will start, you know, in early kidney disease,
noticing that they have to get up at night to pee.
But many people with normal kidney function also have to
get up at night to pee, so that doesn't really help.
It's really a matter of checking blood tests and urine tests.
And they're very simple tests. They're very cheap. They're quick,
they're easy. But they're so important in identifying people at

(40:33):
high risk.

S2 (40:34):
Are they also accurate. So, you know a test is
kind of pretty conclusive.

S6 (40:37):
Absolutely. They're very robust and reliable tests. So if people
have diabetes it's really important that they're having their kidney
function checked at least once a year. And if they've
got other markers of risk or if they have established
kidney damage more frequently than that, perhaps every 3 to
6 months, or even more frequently if they're quite severe.
So it's a really important element of the holistic care

(40:58):
of people with type two diabetes.

S2 (41:00):
So in particular with Ozempic. Does it kind of halt
the kidney disease proceeding, or can it actually reverse any
damage that might be done?

S6 (41:08):
So once kidney damage is done, it's done. Can't regrow.
We can't regenerate kidney tissue unlike some other organs. So
once the damage is there, it's there. But what ozempic
and other drugs that are effective do is they slow
down the further damage they help to protect the kidney
function that's there and therefore reduce the risk of developing
kidney failure. Needing dialysis or a kidney transplant, but also

(41:30):
reduce the risk of heart attack, stroke, premature death, etc..

S2 (41:33):
You talked about the fact that it's hard to kind
of prove that diabetes causes the kidney disease. I kind
of get that. My kind of understanding of it is
that with Ozempic, it's good for people who want to
lose weight. Is that associated with kidney disease as well,
being overweight?

S6 (41:48):
Yeah it is. Certainly there's good data suggesting that people
who are overweight have a higher risk of kidney disease,
perhaps because of the strain that's put on their kidneys.
They have to work a bit harder with the extra
weight that's being carried, and that increases the risk of
scarring in the kidneys. There have been fewer studies at
the moment looking at the effects of ozempic in people
who are overweight and who don't have diabetes. But even

(42:10):
in some of those studies, there's a signal that some
of the markers of kidney disease may improve. The data
is nowhere near as robust as it is for people
with diabetes, and it's an area that we need to
study more going forward. At the moment, we'd really only
use Ozempic for kidney protection in people who've got diabetes,
but it's certainly an area that's worthy of further study
moving forward.

S2 (42:29):
Now, Olympic's been around for a while. It kind of
came on with a bit of fanfare a few years ago.
What about in terms of its sort of safety and efficacy? And,
you know, I guess in sort of the medium to
long term, it probably hasn't been around long enough for
long term evaluation. Or has it?

S6 (42:43):
We now have, you know, hundreds of thousands of people
who've been treated with these sort of drugs for a
number of years. So out to sort of 5 or
6 years, we've got very good data. Beyond that, we
don't have very good data at this stage. But we
know a lot about certainly its safety at 5 or
6 years. And what we've learned is that there's a
proportion of people who get significant gastrointestinal side effects, nausea

(43:03):
or vomiting or diarrhea, and who therefore can't tolerate it.
But that's actually a small proportion. It's a few percent.
Most patients, particularly with the sort of regimen that we
use to slowly increase the dose, tolerate it just fine,
although they often do get a little bit of nausea
or whatever else, that's usually manageable. And then after that
they tolerate it fine. People who've got eye disease due
to diabetes that's needing treatment at the time probably should

(43:26):
wait until that's under control before they start ozempic and
drugs like it. But other than that, really the safety
profile of these drugs is extraordinarily good. There have been
a lot of studies that have looked at whether there
are signals of other risks and really haven't been able
to find any. So I think people can feel really
quite reassured that the data for this drug is looking
remarkably positive.

S2 (43:46):
You would expand a bit on people with heart disease,
how that might impact.

S6 (43:49):
Yeah. So in people with diabetes, these drugs are also
very good at improving diabetes control. So they lower average
glucose levels significantly. And there's some evidence that in people
who've got eye disease related to diabetes, it can damage
the little blood vessels at the back of the eye
in those people. If that disease is unstable. Lowering the
blood sugar quickly can make the eye disease worse temporarily,

(44:11):
so we'd recommend getting the eye disease under control before
starting one of these treatments.

S2 (44:15):
What about as far as administering the drug? Is it
orally or is it via injection? Or can it depend
on how much you have and when you have it?

S6 (44:23):
Yeah. With these drugs, it's a once weekly injection with ozempic.
It's very simple and easy to administer, not painful. People
can administer it to themselves. Most people feel a bit
icky about starting any sort of injection, but this is
actually a really easy thing for people to get used
to very quickly. And it's only once a week, which
makes it quite simple. We'd usually start at a low
dose at 0.25mg, and then increase it every few weeks

(44:45):
up to the sort of treatment dose of one milligram
if people tolerate it. It's quite a simple treatment regimen.
There are new tablet versions of these drugs coming that
are looking pretty effective at lowering glucose and also lowering
body weight in the data that's been done so far.
But they're not available. They're still a few years away
at this stage.

S2 (45:02):
I was going to ask you about the increase in
dosage as you go along. That kind of is contained
in that injection. So in a few weeks time, the
injection that you have has got more drug in it
rather than this week type of thing.

S6 (45:13):
Right. You just administer a tiny bit more every few weeks,
and it's usually very well tolerated by the vast majority
of people.

S2 (45:19):
Would also be okay for people who are injecting insulin.

S6 (45:22):
Yes, absolutely. So in the trials, a significant proportion of
people were using insulin as well. And they also benefited
from ozempic in a whole range of ways. Indeed, in
some of those people, they were able to reduce the
amount of insulin that they needed. Obviously, in discussion with
their doctor, managing their diabetes and managing their glucose. But
in those people, they also lose weight, their diabetes improves,

(45:43):
and they have evidence of kidney protection and cardiovascular protection
to that.

S2 (45:47):
So often when I speak to people like you often
ask this question, and I have a lot of empathy
for GPS because they have such a huge workload and
have to know so much. What about in terms of
the regular GP? I was going to say rank and file,
but the regular GP being aware of this has just
come out this week or to the media anyway. Would
most GPS be kind of across this sort of information?

S6 (46:06):
It's been communicated to GPS, but it'll take a little
while to trickle down. But the news and the information
is out there. So if people with diabetes, type two
diabetes and it's important to say that this data relates
to people with type two diabetes and not type one diabetes,
but type two diabetes who have kidney disease or who
aren't sure if their kidneys are okay or not. I
think should go and speak to their GP and ask
them about it, and if their GP hasn't heard, they

(46:28):
can look it up very quickly and the information is
widely available and quite simple.

S2 (46:32):
Well, it sounds like really good news. So I guess
your GP, your GP is the first point of contact
and ask the question. Exactly right. Thanks so much for
your time. It's really much appreciated, particularly seeing the news
off the press. So thank you for sharing your time
with us.

S6 (46:46):
Absolute pleasure. Thank you Peter.

S2 (46:48):
That's Professor Vlado Perkovic, who talked to us about Ozempic
and the fact that it's now been okay by the
TGA for people with kidney disease. So if you want
more details, contact your doctor and we'll put some details
up on our show notes as well. Well, it's a
really interesting work done by Monash University regarding the Disability

(47:09):
Wellbeing Index. Let's chat about it with the co-author, Professor
Anthony Harris at the FMI call you that. Thanks so
much for your time. My pleasure. Tell us a bit
about the background to this. It sounds like a really
great idea and I'm sure would give lots of insights.
Tell us a bit about how this all came about.

S7 (47:24):
This has been a project, a program with quite a
long period of development years actually. So it first came about,
I think really when the NDIS was considering thinking about
improving on its measurement of outcomes. As you know, it
does have an outcome framework. And it's been talking over
time about how to make that a better means of
measuring how well it was doing and developing something that

(47:47):
was fit for purpose. But I think generally there was
a kind of desire in the whole sector to have
some measure of the performance of the way things were going.
That was easy to use and it would be suitable
for comparing across programs. And so it was first proposed
by staff in the NDIS who were interested particularly in

(48:07):
using a tool to help their resource allocation. What what
what they should do, what they shouldn't do, what they
should invest in. And so it came about from their initiative,
but it's developed from there into something a bit broader.

S2 (48:18):
And you've consulted quite widely, I see.

S7 (48:20):
We have consulted very widely. The project involved really from
the start, thinking about what was important to people living
with a disability. So we got together groups of people
with different streams of life, if you like, both stakeholders
and people with lived experience of disability in forums, in
1 to 1 sessions and in surveys. So over a

(48:41):
period of time for different aspects of the project, we
consulted very widely with a range of people, both people
with lived experience, either as consumers, if you like, of
services and people who work for agencies who commission services
and some providers of services.

S2 (48:57):
How challenging was that? Because I guess in any walk
of life, it's kind of hard to get consensus about
a lot of things or most things. How difficult was
that in this instance?

S7 (49:05):
Well, getting people to participate wasn't a problem. People were
very keen to talk about their life and about their
experience of services, particularly experienced with NDIS, which of course
has been such a major revolution in the last few years.
But at the same time, most people have strong views
about it one way or the other.

S2 (49:21):
Yes.

S7 (49:22):
On the other hand, you know, it's been frustrating for
many people. So a lot of the discussion was actually
around the services that they received themselves. So people were
willing to talk. It was a little bit difficult when
we came to some of the trickier aspects of the project,
which we were asking people how important things were in
their life, aspects like family, like security, like services they receive.

(49:44):
And that was more difficult for people to make those
kind of assessments and doing surveys. The other aspect was
that people are a bit tired of doing surveys, particularly
on the NDIS. Yeah, I have to say, we got
the NDIS to help us with the survey and that
again was a positive and a negative. They have a
large group of people who are able to talk about things,
but on the other hand they're a bit tired of

(50:05):
answering questions. So it wasn't always as high as we
would have liked to have been, which we still think
we've got a pretty good coverage of people who responded
and talked about these things, but it would have been
nice to get twice or three times as many people
talking about it. And so there may be a few gaps.
The other thing, obviously with people with a profound disability,
sometimes find it difficult to answer questions on their own.

(50:28):
They need some help with it. We provided as much
help as we could. We did 1 to 1 sessions
with people, but inevitably some people relied on a friend
or a carer to answer the questions, which made us
feel sometimes we may not have got quite to the
nub of the issue. We weren't often not talking to
the person themselves with disability. We tried hard to do that.
We tried to make it accessible, both the language we

(50:50):
used and the way in which we contacted people and
made it available. Nonetheless, there were quite a few people
who responded through a friend or a carer or someone
someone who's helping them. And so that's one of the difficulties,
I think, in all this work. But we've tried our best.

S2 (51:06):
So how does it work like? Because I guess wellbeing
is a very broad term, isn't it? And wellbeing to
you might be different to wellbeing to me.

S7 (51:13):
You're absolutely right. Clearly each individual has their own notion
of what matters to them. And the index ideally, if
it was to be used for an individual to measure
how well they're doing through their life would be personalised.
But this is not the purpose of this index. The
purpose of the index really is to measure the average
across a group of people who might be using a service,

(51:33):
so we can assess whether that service is improving their
wellbeing when it's introduced or when it's changed. So whilst
the index could be used by an individual to track
their wellbeing. It's not designed to do that because we
do recognize that individuals will be quite different from each other.
That said, what we found with the index was that
vast majority of people, the things that were important to

(51:54):
one person, were pretty similar to things that were important
to the other. So we're quite clear that the the
life aspects, things like safety, independence, good relationships with your
family and friends, those kind of things are pretty common
amongst people, and they tend to give a similar kind
of weight to them. What's more or less important in
these things is pretty similar. There will be differences in
different groups. So for example, this is not an index

(52:15):
that we designed for use, for example, amongst First Nations peoples.
We didn't specifically look at the aspects of wellbeing that
might be important to different cultural groups within this population.
So it is pretty much an average for most of
the population. So I have to admit that there will
certainly be groups of people. This may be less appropriate.
For example, we haven't got an index for children who

(52:37):
clearly think about things, and things that are important to
them are different perhaps than adults. So that's work for
the future. I think this is the first version of
the index. I think it probably needs to be developed
for First Nations peoples, perhaps for other cultural groups, for children,
perhaps for things I haven't thought of, to be honest.

S2 (52:55):
I guess you've got the template there to go forward
with it. I'll ask you a bit more about the
future in a second. What about in terms of who
has access to the information? How does that work?

S7 (53:02):
This will be freely available. This is an index which
it's now, I believe online. We launched the other day.
It's online. People can download it. They just have to
register and tell us who they are, maybe a little
bit what they're going to do with it. But it's
freely available and there's no restrictions. We'd like people to
keep it as it is and not tamper with it.
Aside from that, it's available to download and people can

(53:22):
use it. And I guess it's our child, if you like,
and it will go out there in the world and
we'll grow and people will use it as they wish.
What I mentioned before is how we think it's best used,
but people will use it and we hope we will
see some data coming in the future that might help
us improve it in terms of what people think is
missing or what works and what doesn't. So this is
very much, as I said, version one of the instrument.

S2 (53:44):
What about as far as the service providers or people
who might be being sort of asked about what they're
providing and how that's contributing to the well-being? Did they
have access to this information as well?

S7 (53:54):
Well, they'll have access. They can download the instrument, use it.
We hope, in fact, that providers might do that. We're
quite open to people using it to measure their own services.
It was sponsored by the NDIS, but the owners of
the instrument and they may or may not use it
in the future. That's a little bit unclear. As I
said before, they're constantly updating their outcomes framework and we

(54:14):
hope that they will use the DWI, the wellbeing Index,
as part of their suite of outcome measures, and that
may encourage providers to use it as a performance measure.
But even if they don't, or in the meantime, I
think it still could be useful for people providing services
or running programs. They may want to use this in
a survey or routinely give it to their clients. Yeah,

(54:37):
and I think they find it useful. It's easy to use.
We think it's easy to use when it's used in
the population, just how easy people find it. It's relatively simple.
I think it's easy to score mechanism given on the website,
and I don't see why people couldn't experiment with it
and see if it helps them in the design of
their services. Other groups of individuals, or as you say,

(54:57):
providers I think could find it quite helpful.

S2 (55:00):
All right. What I might get you to do, Anthony,
is if you email me the link to the information,
we can put that up with our show notes. Can
we put show notes up about the programme every week?
It's been really good to talk to you and maybe
down the track. Perhaps when there's a few tweaks made
or major changes made, it'd be good to get you back.
I'm just kind of intrigued. The centre for Health Economics,
that's a rather interesting term.

S7 (55:20):
Well, the Centre's been around since about 1989 or 90,
something like that. We were around for more than 35 years,
and we're one of a few centres of health economics.
But I'd like to think we're the leading centre for
health economics in the country and leading one worldwide. And
we've been involved. We're in the economics faculty, and we
do a range of things from this kind of thing

(55:42):
outcome measurement, evaluation of programs from an economics perspective, looking
at value for money and looking at funding mechanisms the
way things are paid for doctors, nurses, hospitals, drugs. And
we look at mechanisms for improving the healthcare system through
incentives and payments and generally improving resource allocation and value

(56:02):
for money. That's our aim in life.

S2 (56:04):
It sounds like you're doing a very good job, and
this is really very interesting as far as our listeners go.
So thank you for spending a little bit of time
with us.

S7 (56:10):
My pleasure. Nice to talk to you.

S2 (56:11):
That's Professor Anthony Harris from the centre for Health Economics
at Monash University, talking about the Disability Wellbeing Index. We'll
put those details up with our show notes. Let's catch
up with cyber security expert from Telstra. Darren Paul who's
been good enough to join us. Don't appreciate speaking to us.

(56:32):
So thank you for your time.

S8 (56:33):
Oh, thanks very much for having me along.

S2 (56:35):
Now, some disturbing news regarding the increase of cybersecurity intrusions,
if you like, in the last few years.

S8 (56:41):
Yeah, I'm a bit of an old hand in the industry,
and the numbers still don't fail to shock me. So
we've if you have a look at the number of
scam calls that we've been blocking with a dam blocking
platforms that we've got in place in the year, the
12 months to June this year, we blocked on average,
18 million scam calls every month, which was double that

(57:03):
of the previous 12 months and massive numbers.

S2 (57:05):
Why is that? I mean, did these scammers, you know,
make a quid out of it? Therefore they keep persisting?
I mean, you think if it was not working they'd
go find something else. Or maybe this is the something else.

S8 (57:16):
You hit the nail on the head right there. Scams
and a lot of cybercrime in general is all about money.
And that's a good way to think about it in
terms of, you know, when you're thinking about your defence.
So they're all after volume. They might not get you
and me and probably most people most of the time,
but they will get some. And so sending out SMSes
and phone calls and this sort of stuff is a

(57:38):
well oiled machine for them and pretty low cost. So
they do it in huge numbers. And so yeah, it
really comes down to those kind of blocking mechanisms to
really take the volume of the stuff away in order
to minimise what's, what's getting through to individuals.

S2 (57:53):
So if you send out 8 million a month, chances
are no one's going to get through and make it
worth your while.

S8 (57:59):
Yeah that's right. So they rely on that and they
we see them moving around a fair bit. So for
instance the numbers of sms's have dropped off. That's down
to a paltry 8 million blocked every month. That's um,
it was a bit higher than that before.

S2 (58:13):
Nothing to worry about.

S8 (58:15):
Oh, yeah. No, no, nothing at all. Yeah. It's, um.
It is. The scale is huge, and quite often it's
not from an army, although there is a lot. Cybercrime
is industrializing and gotten massive compared to about 20 years
ago when I was I was writing about it, but
it is often a small number of perpetrators with just
really well oiled machines, tools and stuff that kind of
blast this stuff out. So when we start blocking things.

(58:37):
So we've got this. We've been running this cleaner pipes,
as we call it, blocking stuff since about April 2022.
And the folks who work behind that, the engineers and
so forth, way too clever for me. But they I
reckon there's some sort of obsession with them in blocking
this stuff, seeing what works. And they do a whole
bunch of little tweaks and things, experimental stuff to see

(58:57):
how they can crush the latest kind of trick and campaign.
I was thinking before that if they weren't such kind
of horrible people, I'd almost have sympathy for them. Yeah.
You know, they send them packing. It's good stuff.

S2 (59:08):
So is it kind of one of those things where
it's almost like unknown horse racing or, you know, in
even athletics or Olympic sports, you know, the drug treats
are trying to keep ahead of the drug testers or
vice versa.

S8 (59:20):
Yeah, it's a good way to think of it. The
defensive industry, the people who work in cybersecurity as an
industry are orders of magnitude better than the cyber criminals
out there. They're very, very, very good. It's always a
harder job to defend, much harder than it is to attack.
So that's a really good thing that we've got so many,
you know, on the on the right side. But yeah,
they're constantly trying new things. You block off one avenue

(59:43):
and they'll go for the next. So if you look
at attacks that hit businesses, I suppose, rather than the
kind of scams to our phones and so forth that
affect us consumers, those attacks, bulk of them, and the
bulk of the ones that work aren't using new kind
of avenues of attack. They're using really old stuff that
people have just, you know, businesses have just sort of
forgotten to fix or haven't gotten around to it or

(01:00:03):
missed it or whatever. They do that because it works.
So the global thing really global. It touches everyone. Biggest,
biggest business to the smallest. But if they really sort
of got all that kind of security well, in order
not an easy job, then you'd find that the cyber
criminals would have to come up with very, very new ideas,
which would be a lot tougher. It would certainly knock
out the bulk of the, you know, less skilled kind

(01:00:26):
of cyber criminals.

S2 (01:00:26):
Well, if we have a business, I guess you're particularly
looking at small and medium sized businesses. I'm going to
assume that maybe the the big corporates of the world
are Telstra's, etc., probably across this sort of stuff. What's
your kind of advice? Or if we have a small business,
what can we do as individuals? What can we do
to make ourselves as safe as possible?

S8 (01:00:44):
I love this question. And you're right. The big end
of town we've got. I couldn't even tell you how
many people out there. It's a lot that work in
cyber security and all across there's a huge big thing
all across. Telstra are really sort of laser focused on that.
But the small businesses, I have a lot of sympathy
for them because they pull all of their heart and
soul resources, time everything into their business. And this is

(01:01:04):
just security's, you know, technology problems. So there's another thing
you should be able to go and sort of have
that solved for you. But it's a bit of a challenge.
Keeping it simple. So keeping your technology simple, your processes
simple really good. And then also the data that you're collecting.
Imagine that you're collecting phone numbers, names of your customers,
all that sort of stuff, and you're storing it somewhere
on the computer system. The minute that you think that

(01:01:24):
you don't need, that is a good time to get
rid of it or change it into something else. Because
if you don't have a terrible amount of valuable stuff,
remember that the criminals are trying to make a buck
off it. That's what they're not. After stalking anyone, generally
they're after money. How can they monetize it if you
don't have that kind of information there? They really they'll
break in with a grab the bag of data and
open it up when they get home and there'll be

(01:01:46):
nothing in it. So that's a really good way to
do it. Minimize the kind of data that you're keeping,
and then make sure that you've got backups for all
your stuff. Because if the lights do go off and
everything falls to bits, you want to be able to
go back to pen and paper, know who to call,
and then get your tech people to restore everything back
up to order. And that minimizing that downtime is super important.
That's very costly for businesses.

S2 (01:02:06):
So making yourself a smaller target in a way.

S8 (01:02:08):
Perfect, absolutely smaller target less valuable. And, you know, make
sure the lights can go back on as quick, as
quick as possible.

S2 (01:02:15):
So you talked about the people they're targeting. I mean,
I'm thinking of maybe people with disabilities who people who
might be more vulnerable. My mom. Your dad sort of thing.
It might be my lovely next door neighbor who might
be a little bit older and maybe not quite, uh,
maybe not as quite as suspicious as they should be.
Is that part of the problem as well? That people
are a bit too naive and that makes them vulnerable

(01:02:36):
as well?

S8 (01:02:37):
So there is a point of that. And so when
you just sort of forget, you mentioned vulnerable people. There's
a type of scam at the moment called recruitment scams.
They're fake job offers. So targeting people who've.

S2 (01:02:48):
Had one of those. I've had one of those myself.

S8 (01:02:50):
Yeah.

S2 (01:02:51):
Yeah. I didn't take it up though.

S8 (01:02:53):
Yeah. Did it seem a bit too good to be true, though?

S2 (01:02:56):
I didn't think that could afford me.

S8 (01:02:59):
Yes. Well, that's a that's a good way to think
about it. So. Fantastic. Well, you know, it's the same as,
you know, the advice for that is the same as
it is with most scams. And, you know, I always
say if something's unexpected, whether it's, you know, I get
scams in the post op post, write a proper cyber
scam sent to my address. Don't know where that came from.
But anyway, so whether it's in the post or smoke signal,

(01:03:20):
phone call, whatever, if it's unexpected. You didn't expect that
person to say that thing at that time. Use your
better judgment. But in terms of naivety and those kinds
of certain cohorts of people, it is interesting because I
speak to a bunch of community groups and so forth,
and I absolutely love speaking to the Country Women's Association,
which I've done a number of times. Once as the

(01:03:41):
youngest person in the room is 84, eldest was over
a century, 103, you know, Queen of scones, they call them.
And and I asked them about scams, you know, the
kind of scams that they've seen when they were kids.
And it was marvelous. Just marvelous. So I left with
a sense that they've done enough orbits around the sun.
They know what dodgy looks like. They might not be
so afraid with computers, but they get it. And so

(01:04:03):
they need simple advice and a good sense of being suspicious,
that sort of thing. And that sets them in pretty
good stead, I reckon.

S2 (01:04:10):
Yeah, we've heard a lot about AI in the last
or nearly three years. I think the anniversary for ChatGPT is,
I guess, again, it's that sort of battle between the
goodies and the baddies and the goodies are using AI
to defend themselves. The baddies are using AI to try
and infiltrate.

S8 (01:04:23):
Yes. So if you think about AI in terms of
cyber security now, yes, it's all emergent, right? It's been,
you know, floating around for a bit, but the way
it's being used or abused right now is in text
messages or in emails. So you can imagine, you know,
typos and, you know, kind of what a Telstra scam
might look like or an auspost scam, that sort of stuff.

(01:04:44):
Imagine a subtle difference. So instead of six words, you've
won an offer or your account's been hacked or something
like that, but it will come out as a different
sort of a sentence, you know, something that you might
write in a paragraph or whatever. That's what the output
of these AI's been doing. And a couple of years ago,
they experimented a little bit, didn't do such a good job.
They tried to sound Aussie, and they were saying things
like bonza and it just came across as a bit odd.

(01:05:05):
But they're getting better now. They're getting better now. And
then of course, you've got video and audio deepfakes, you know,
all that kind of stuff which will cyber criminals are slow,
maybe call them lazy, you know, in terms of adopting
this stuff, but it's on the horizon. They're waiting in
the wings.

S2 (01:05:18):
So I guess the sort of parting message, uh, Darren,
or the take home message is kind of be alert
but not alarmed, because, I mean, we don't want to
scare people into, you know, into being worried at every
single moment of the day. But I guess, by the
same token, you got to keep your guard up.

S8 (01:05:32):
It is. And security. I've seen a lot of bad stuff.
I see it all the time. But really, the ways
to stay safe are dead simple. Dead simple. So, you know,
I mean, I say that as a security person, but honestly,
they're pretty good. Skepticism is a great thing. So slow
things down. Scammers don't like it. They don't. They want
to rush it. Right? Anyone else who's ringing you in
their legit asking for your info, whatever it is, they

(01:05:53):
should have no problem calling you back. You calling the
organization on their property? No problem. If they do, you know.
And then make sure please, please, please make sure that
you don't use the same password for your different services
because that is collateral damage.

S2 (01:06:07):
Yeah, I think I took your advice the last time
you chatted to us a few months ago. And I
guess just kind of reassuring people, I mean, organizations like Telstra,
you kind of talked about your, uh, your team, uh,
with their laser, laser like focus is trying to, you know,
keep us as safe as they can. So I guess
we can have a bit of comfort from things like that.

S8 (01:06:26):
Absolutely. You know, I'm a I'm a natural skeptic. Bit
of a cynic, especially with seeing security for the last
person to be impressed, I'd say. And genuinely across the industry, telcos,
Telstra has definitely done amazing work there. The banks, all
that kind of intersection of money and communication, all that.
It's a huge, huge amount of effort, lots of data.
They're real smart people and they're just working tirelessly. So,

(01:06:47):
you know, the scammers aren't having a good time. And
if you ever do get a scam that slips through
to your phone, you can always report that that's a
beautiful thing to help immunize the broader kind of Australian
public against these kind of threats. And it's also an
indicator that if one got through, there's probably, well, 18
million a month that didn't.

S2 (01:07:04):
Yeah. Great point. Great to catch up with you make sense.
And it's also good to get a bit of a
different perspective on things. We appreciate your time. I look
forward to the next time we catch up.

S8 (01:07:14):
I love catching up. Thanks very much for the opportunity.

S2 (01:07:16):
Cheers there from Telstra. Cyber security expert with some sobering messages,
but also some message that we can all take heed of.

S9 (01:07:26):
That's what it's like catching up with.

S2 (01:07:28):
Our friend from live big Theo is Juliette Middleton and
she's with us. Hello, Juliette.

S10 (01:07:33):
Hello. Thanks for the lovely, warm welcome. I always get
that from you. And it's really lovely. Thank you.

S2 (01:07:38):
Well, I think our friends of the program, I think
we can say that with a great deal of confidence.

S10 (01:07:41):
Friends of the program. Friends of vision. Yes.

S2 (01:07:45):
That's right.

S10 (01:07:45):
Absolutely.

S2 (01:07:46):
When you put yourself out for Vision Australia, trekking across
New Zealand, that sort of stuff.

S10 (01:07:50):
So it was great fun. But I think my toenails
are still recovering. All right.

S2 (01:07:55):
Hey Juliette, interesting topic. You've got to chat to us
today about OTS and perhaps with families who maybe aren't
connecting as well with their kids as they might like to.

S10 (01:08:03):
Yes, absolutely. I love big, does a lot of work
with the children, but it's also so much about the families,
the carers, the educators. You know, they say it takes
a village and it really does. Particularly for children and
families that are feeling somewhat disconnected or struggling with challenging
behaviors or children who have autism spectrum disorder. There is

(01:08:25):
so much need in our communities.

S2 (01:08:27):
Towards the roles cannot play, and you kind of touched
on it already. But it's not just people who might
have kids with autism. It's kind of lots of different
types of disabilities or.

S10 (01:08:37):
Different.

S2 (01:08:37):
Life experiences.

S10 (01:08:38):
Yes, and we know that change for everybody is hard.
Change for children is particularly hard. And I've experienced that
with my own children as we go, as we go
through life. But one of the things that we work
really hard at is understanding where that child, where that
family is at, meeting them where they are, and finding
approaches that will work for them and the way that

(01:09:01):
they are living their life, and the other things that
they're having to deal with and putting in really meaningful steps.
You know, You know, we're not trying to address everything
at once. And that's also where that connection with the school,
the educators and the community, things that they're involved with
so that the strategies and the things that we're recommending,

(01:09:23):
everybody's on board with it. It's really important. And that
that also helps in turn and build the confidence, stability,
security of the child.

S2 (01:09:32):
Now, I guess OT is a fairly overarching term, if
you like. What about the sort of things they've got
in their toolkit that can help?

S10 (01:09:40):
So so many things that come even, you know, that
seems simple, but we design them in a way that
will engage the child. So little calendars or reward charts.
And for some of these children communication can be quite difficult.
So we'll work with the family and find a way
to design something that child will understand. It's particularly useful

(01:10:02):
for those what we call activities of daily living. So dressing, eating,
brushing the teeth They are some of the surface challenges.
Obviously there's things that are much deeper than that, but
we will work to really tailor them for each child
and be realistic. Let's not try and tick them all
off in a week, but let's pick 1 or 2
things and and really focus on that. You know, the
other thing is I've talked a lot with you about

(01:10:24):
the sensory, how important the sensory processing and having things
for children that they can touch and feel, not just
so they're not just having to listen to what we
want them to do. And occupational therapists are especially good
at that. Identifying sensory patterns, working with the families to
build the strategies that reduce the distress and increase the
confidence both for the child, but of course, for the

(01:10:46):
parents as well.

S2 (01:10:47):
What about the time as in the time in a
child's life when an it sort of comes into the picture?
How important is that look?

S10 (01:10:53):
It's you know, I'm a big believer of early intervention,
but we know that things you can take sometimes a
while to understand what the challenge is or to identify it.
And of course, as a provider of these services. Live
big news, as well as anyone else that actually finding
the support can be really difficult, let alone securing funding
and the means to enable it for your child. Certainly

(01:11:15):
the earlier the better, but it's never too late.

S2 (01:11:19):
Because I know of families, obviously that put a lot
of energy and resources, both financially and emotionally, into getting
their best for their children. So that's kind of part
of it. But then it's finding that other side of
the service, if you like, the other side of the equation,
that is going to give them what they need or
give them something that's going to really benefit the whole family.

S10 (01:11:37):
Yeah. That's right. And at Live Big, we have a
bit of a different approach in that we have multidisciplinary teams.
So we have occupational therapists, speech pathologists, psychologists and a
behaviour support practitioners that are really integral to some of
the designing some of the approaches for this. So when
an occupation one of our occupational therapists is with that
child or family or in the school, they can also

(01:11:58):
come back and have a bit of a bit of
a conversation or debrief or search for some other ideas,
sort of across all the things that or the value
that all those different types of therapy and support can
provide for people. And I think that's, you know, it's
not necessarily a one trick wonder.

S2 (01:12:14):
That's a great point, isn't it? Because, you know, you
can't have all the answers and you wouldn't be expected
to have all the answers, but you kind of cast
your net a bit wider, can obviously result in, you know,
more tricks in your bag.

S10 (01:12:24):
Yeah. I mean, how practical is that for people? Not
very practical. You know, as a parent myself, I've had
some challenges to to overcome with one of my children
and actually just the time, let alone the cost of
seeing multiple different providers. It's really stressful and it's stressful
for the child. And that's where we are. We're big
believers in having those multidisciplinary teams where each clinician can learn,

(01:12:46):
but also then take that learning out to the people
that they're supporting.

S2 (01:12:49):
And of course, then you've got the siblings of the
children who might have a disability and like their needs
and their requirements and their consideration is such an important
factor as well.

S10 (01:12:58):
Absolutely huge, huge factor. And you know, we do also.
I think one of the challenges of the work that
we do is having those boundaries, understanding the scope of
our support and the things that we are there to
help with and the things that we can't. But again,
you also, when you're designing the approaches for, you know,
for mom and dad or the teacher or whoever that

(01:13:19):
might be, you have to take all those things you're
dealing with into consideration. And I don't more often than not,
our clinicians are going into homes or classrooms where there
are there are siblings or other children that need just
as much support and nurturing.

S2 (01:13:33):
Of course, getting better at that, do you think, Juliet?
I mean, I guess the home is one thing. That is,
there is always room for improvement.

S10 (01:13:40):
Yeah, of course, you know, like, I think they've got
so much better again, you know, people have good and
bad experiences, but the fact that we are just talking
about this and that when you every time you and
I have spoken, we're always talking about that village and
ensuring people are on the same page and having that
connection to school. I know even personally if something if

(01:14:00):
I'm seeing some behavior in my child at home that's
a bit unusual or tricky, I will email the school
the teacher and say, hey, you know, have you noticed anything?
Did something happen? Because children, they may want to tell you,
but sometimes they just don't know how. And sometimes it's nothing.
And other times they'll say, oh, actually, we actually have
been really challenging him in this. Or there was an
incident in the playground. It didn't quite go to plan.

(01:14:22):
So just having those open conversations is so important.

S2 (01:14:27):
You talked about the kind of sensory aspect as well,
because some kids do have trouble with communicating. And so
that sensory aspect can be a.

S10 (01:14:35):
Yeah.

S2 (01:14:36):
Again, another avenue.

S10 (01:14:37):
I think adults do too, particularly when we're flustered or upset,
tired a lot on our plates. We just lose sight
of thinking about how am I going to communicate this
in a way that helps me, but also helps the
person I'm trying to communicate with. So the sensory pieces,
it's really important for children. It's also about regulating understanding
when they are in a in a mind space or

(01:14:58):
body space to actually communicate versus going, okay, I just
need to wait until they've. They're calmer or in a
different environment. And then I will try and have the conversation. So.
You need buckets of patience, Peter.

S2 (01:15:11):
Well yeah. And what's the old cliche about, you know,
when you become a parent, no one gives you a manual.
Not not not not not not not how to be
a parent. Anyway.

S11 (01:15:20):
I got a blue book with, you know, height and weight.
I was like, good start. Yeah.

S2 (01:15:26):
Now, I noticed in your release that you talked about
five tips. I guess you kind of touched on some
of them already.

S11 (01:15:31):
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

S10 (01:15:33):
So some of them seem very obvious, but they're very good.
Just to come back to and I think I mentioned
the first one, meet your child where they are. You
have to be patient, understand you know, their age, everything
else that's going on. Um, the other one is observe more,
do less. So just take the time to watch. And
that may be including watching what's happening in the dynamics
of the classroom or at home with those siblings or friends.

(01:15:54):
And this is probably my favorite one. Use really big,
joyful responses. So we all need to be encouraged and
and rewarded in some way. You know, exaggerate your reaction
and whether you're encouraging them to do something again or
you're patting them on the back for your good try.
And similarly, celebrate those small wins. This is something we

(01:16:15):
do at work too, actually a lot. Don't wait for
something big to come along and celebrate. You have to
celebrate the little milestones along the way to keep the
motivation and always stay curious what else is happening. Look
at it from a different perspective. Talk to other people
that are involved with your child. It could be grandma, granddad,
a sports coach, a friend's parent, of course the teachers,

(01:16:39):
and just keep asking the questions.

S2 (01:16:41):
Well, I think we can all learn from that anyway. Just,
you know, if you've got kids, we haven't got kids
just in our everyday lives. It's probably going to be
better if we take those on board. So I'll have
to extract them from the interview and write them down
and read them every day.

S10 (01:16:54):
Yeah, Yeah. Great. Great advice for the workplace as well.
Any relationship. Celebrate the wins and stay curious.

S2 (01:17:02):
Terrific. We talk about bringing joy or acknowledging joy. It
certainly brought a bit of joy to us today. Juliet,
thank you so much for speaking to us. I'm sure
it won't be too long before we speak again.

S10 (01:17:11):
Absolutely. Thanks, Peter. Thanks.

S2 (01:17:13):
You can find out more. Com.au.

S10 (01:17:16):
That's right. Or we've got a 1303 90222. And we're
always there to answer the phone and help people in
whatever way we can.

S2 (01:17:25):
All right. Those details up there. Shout outs. All the best, Juliet.

S10 (01:17:28):
Thanks, Peter. You too.

S2 (01:17:29):
Juliet Middleton there. The CEO for live. Big friend of
the program. Always great to have them on. A couple
of quotes before we go. Norman has set one in Norman.
Always a little bit quirky, a little bit obtuse. Norman
says if I had more time, I would have written
a longer quote. Norman, thank you very much for that.

(01:17:50):
I think that's funny. We appreciate you sending that in.
and also from Lorena, who sends one in saying change
the way you see and you will change the way
you live. Lorena. Thank you so much for your quote.
One birthday before we go. It's a beauty to Mary Folland,
who tuned into the first link back in October 1991,

(01:18:12):
is having a birthday. So, Mary, a very big and
happy birthday to you. Hope you have a great day.
Thank you so much for being such a loyal and
wonderful supporter and contributor over many, many years. Probably heard
most of the programs if Mary Smith's Dennis, because either
she's been away competing or coaching or doing volunteer work. So,

(01:18:32):
Mary Folland, happy birthday to you. Keep up your fabulous work.
Sam Ricketts away on assignments. Something to do with purple.
So Pam Green stepping up to the plate and doing
a splendid job. Thank you Pam for your help. And
James stepping into the breach as well. So James will
come on board to the team. Thank you for your support.
Really appreciate that. Hope you stick around for a while.

(01:18:55):
Now we're speaking about sticking around. You're going to be
sticking around because Vicki Cousins is coming up very soon
with Australian Geographics. You love that program don't you? Reminding
you that link is available on your favorite podcast platform.
Get it wherever you hear your favorite pod. Be kind
to yourselves, be thoughtful and look out for others all

(01:19:18):
being well. Let's link back at the same time next
week on Vision Australia Radio and the Reading Radio Network.
This is later link.

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