October 16, 2024 • 25 mins
Many of us put off creating or updating our wills, often because it feels like it's something that can be addressed later. But life is unpredictable, and having a current will is vital to protecting your loved ones and reflecting your wishes when the time comes. In this special episode, host James Valentine speaks to TV personality and keynote speaker Barry Du Bois about his very personal story, and hear from Safewill CEO and founder Adam Lubofsky about the importance of securing your legacy.
About the episode - brought to you by Australian Seniors.
Join James Valentine as he explores the incredible stories of Aussie characters, from the adventurous to the love-struck. Across 31 inspirational episodes, Life’s Booming explores life, health, love, travel, and everything in between.
This special episode commemorates Australian Seniors inaugural Update Your Will Day on 20 October, and reminds Australians of the importance of protecting your legacy for the ones we leave behind.
In 2011, keynote speaker and former The Living Room presenter Barry Du Bois sat in front of a team of doctors and heard the immortal words: it's time to put your affairs in order. Facing a cancer diagnosis, he turned his attention to securing his legacy for his family.
Safewill founder and CEO Adam Lubofsky created his online platform to help Australians simplify the process of writing and updating their will. He shares some of the common will myths and reminds us all of the importance of regularly reviewing your will to ensure your estate plan is current, legally valid, and reflective of your intentions.
If you want to share your story to Life’s Booming, visit seniors.com.au/podcast.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello, I'm James Valentine and welcome to a special episode
of Life's Booming. And we're calling this episode where there's
a Will, there's a relative. Many Australians put off creating
or updating their wills, often because it feels like it's
something that can be addressed later. But in reality, life
is unpredictable and having a current will is an important
step to protect your family and reflect how you'd like
(00:28):
to leave your affairs when that time comes. October the
twentieth is Update your Will date And if you know
anyone who's got a will and needs to update it,
please share this podcast with them and then leave us
a comment, leave us a review. So on this episode
we're going to explore wills and the need to update
it and in some ways the ease of updating it
with two really great guests. So we'll be joined by
(00:50):
Barry du Bois, who you might remember from the Living
Room was a great show on renovation and home design
and that sort of stuff. He's been a designer and
a builder. These days, he's now focusing on mental health.
He's a keynote speaker on these issues and he's got
an extraordinary story to tell. Adam Lebowski is a CEO
and founder of Safe Will, a platform that you can
(01:11):
use online to complete your will and get all that done. So,
Barry Adam, thanks for joining us. Barry, you're one of
the few people I know who's heard the immortal words
it's time to put your affairs in order.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, it happened to me in two thousand and eleven,
and that's exactly what she said. I think the best
thing you can do is go home, tidy up your affairs.
And you've got about three months to go.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
What do you have Who was telling you?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Okay? Well that was one of three doctors I was
sitting in front of. I'm smiling about it now, but
it was My wife was beside me. She was in tears.
I've been I went in for to pick up some
X rays for something I thought was really minor that
morning at nine o'clock. From there, I ended up at
Saint Vincent's Hospital and I've been in and out of
(01:57):
seat machines all day. I had several blood tears. I've
been the right machine and what seemed like a perfectly
normal day. At four o'clock that afternoon, I sat before
three doctors and the first one says, Bart, I think
you should just go home, tidy up your affairs. This
is too aggressive, it's too big, it's cancer. This being
(02:18):
a placement sidee my loma and based my brain there.
And I said, well, thanks for that. I use my
wife used an expletive of where she thought she should go.
And I said, I don't want you on my team.
You're not part of anything I do from now on.
And I said to the next doctor, I'm not sure
what your expertise is, but you do the best you
(02:39):
can and I'm going to do whatever I can. And
the third doctor was a bit baffled by my positive attitude.
But I have got a positive attit.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
He's getting rid of the other two. I'll go with
this here.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
And he suggested I got some psychological help. That's that's
not a joke, that's the truth. But he do whatever
he could with my blood. He's a professor of him ptology.
But you know, I did think ninety days what if
they're right? And there was a lot of my time
was taken up with not believing it would happen, making.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Sure if it did up and so up until that point,
did you have a will?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I did, have a will. I retired when I was
forty five. I was very lucky. I'm a very lucky guy.
But until recently, No, no, because I say I'm a
lucky guy. I retired when I was forty five. But
when I was forty I fell fourteen meters off a building.
And that was the time. I didn't have children at stage.
(03:44):
I had just I just lost a friend, and I
thought I didn't care about dying. It wasn't something I
ever focused on. But I thought, you know what, I
have some money, and I'm recently married, and if we're
going to be married, I don't want it to be
any confusion if something happens. Because the morning I fell
(04:05):
off the building, I didn't know I was going to
fall off a building. The morning I got cancer, I
didn't know I was going to get cancer. No one
wakes you up in the morning and says, hey, listen,
by the way, seven days you're out. No one says that.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And so put your affairs in order, was the first
thing you thought of a will?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
No, I'll be honest. When she said that, I thought,
get me out of here. I'm a celebrity, get me
out of here now. I wasn't a celebrity. But I said, now,
just get me out of this place. I don't want
to hear that. I don't believe that, but I will
say this. It's interesting. When a doctor had told me
a couple of years earlier, about five years earlier, that
(04:43):
my mum had about a month ago, I said, you're wrong,
that's not true. That can't happen. And twenty eight days
later she died. So that was the wake up call
for me, was when my mum passed and I knew
it was important that I had a will.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
And when you went back to look at it, you
know like it had been ten years since you looked
at the will or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
It's funny. I'm a control free and I'm a spontaneous
sort of a guy as well, and I live life
to the max, is no doubt about that. But every
now and then I'll say, how long has it been
since I've looked at that will? And a lot has changed,
and in our lives, so much changes, so often, the
(05:28):
dynamics of our environment, our community, who are around us
at the time, all those sorts of things. And for me,
the will is I'm not sure about you, Adam, but
I also have a lot of instructions of what I
think should happen in the future. No one has to
have that, but that's a big part of it for me.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I just want to.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Remind people why my legacy is important. And what I
think I always ask a question is if you could
tell your great great grandchildren one piece of advice, what
is it? So I leave that piece of advice, it's
my will as well.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I would say to my great great grandchildren, update you will. Yeah,
you know, like just keep that regularly, keep it there.
I mean, you're both wearing shirts with update you Will. Adam,
you've been listening to to Barry's story. I mean what
I hear in Barry's story is that sort of strong,
Like really, we just all live with a denial of death,
and doing the will requires a moment where you go,
(06:29):
I'm gonna die.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think that's right for a lot of people. There's
a big emotional barrier to writing the will, and we
actually have a lot of people come to Safe Will,
which is now the nation's largest will writing platform. They'll
fill out the instructions, they'll go to all the effort,
and then there'll just be a barrier to them printing
off and signing and completing the will.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So you're describing me, you are describing me. This is
exactly my wife and I both we've done the safe
will thing. I've had cancer in the last year's still
hasn't made a press print and go and get the
damn thing side.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, there's this barrier. Whether it's emotional cognitive, we're not
quite sure. It seems to tap people in different ways,
but there's something that stops people taking that final step
in what do you think it is?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Is it just that sort of it's too much, it's
too much to admit that we get.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I think for a lot of people it is. I
think that there's also a finality that comes with there's
a perception that finalizing your will that's the last time
that you'll be able to finalize your will. Because so
many people put it off, they won't update their will regularly.
So for a lot of people, there's this big decision
hurdle to get over in executing their will. And part
(07:39):
of what we've tried to design in digital platforms to
make it very easy for people to come back update
their will lead further instructions, and Daz was saying, you know,
if you're going away on a flight. You want to
change something or add a little bit more color to
make it as easy as possible for people to try
to overcome that barrier with can.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I say I do a lot of keynote speaking around
the mental health space, and I say this in a
lot of my talks. Your will is an important thing,
not just for your legacy, but it's also cathartic. What
you're actually doing is preparing something to know that everything
is the way you want it. Imagine if you could
imagine the last seconds of your life and now I
(08:22):
forgot to do this. I forgot to do that. You know,
when I laid a rest, I want to know everything
is in a good space. And for me, I wrote
a book that was very cathartic, but in a mini way.
Your affairs, the administration of your affairs is a cathartic thing.
You know that you're leaving a legacy and it's going
really clearly where.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
You want it to go. Do you think you would
have done it because it's not You describe your first
encounter with death, your first close encounter with death. If
that's not the only one, You've had another cancer diagnosis,
which also gave you a time frame. Do you think
without that you would have done it? Is this really
sharpened your attention.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
On I said all the time, the vision of mortality,
that water for which is the end? When I'm one
of the few people that are here to talk about that,
I've seen that a couple of times. But I think
I think it puts you in a more positive space.
If that's the answer to that question.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe we shouldn't call an update you
will day, but accept your death day could be.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
There, or want to put another way, it's not accept
your death. None of us is getting out of here alive.
It's just to be the best version of you. If
you create something that is a really straightforward and thought
about at a rational time way you want things to go, well,
(09:46):
that's just being the best person. You can make a
rational decision at a rational time. I didn't have that
rationale in the ninety days. It was funny because I
put that date in my calendar. This is where you
predict that I was going to go, And yeah, I
was probably a lot more irrational at that time. I
was trying to do too many things and trying to
(10:08):
change too much too quickly.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
How detailed. Do we need to be Adam, Can I
just sort of say okay, everything goes to the wife
and sign yes.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
So the will itself, from a legal perspective, doesn't need
to be you know, war and peace. It really can
be a simple set of instructions, which you know, platforms
like ours can take five to ten fifteen minutes. As
I love your framing of it though, as you know,
not just thinking about it from a legal perspective, but
(10:38):
also from the concept of emotional and legacy and being
able to add a little bit more color to you know,
whether it's advice for future generations, whether it's a sentimental gift,
And there's definitely the opportunity to do that as well.
So ticking the legal box and getting something that's effectual
(11:00):
doesn't need to be a huge song in dance. But
that said, for a lot of people there is a
cathasis that comes with in the will being able to
leave a legacy.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But I suppose in practical terms, I'm just asking, is
that you know a simple sentence that says all of
my property goes to my wife or goes to my children,
divided in three ways. Do I have to provide all
the documents about that property and list everything.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Absolutely not, absolutely not. I definitely would recommend a self
drafted will because there are certain things that again, whether
going with a lawyer or a platforms being designed by lawyers,
the documents will be a lot more effective and comprehensive.
But you know, for ours as an example, there are
four mandatory areas in thinking about how your state is divided,
(11:48):
who acts as your executive and so on. But once
you've done that, you've got an effective will, and so
it really can be as easy as ten minutes from.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I wonder if it sounds a bit bit grand almost
when you say your state, You know, I start to
see down to abbey really and I'm a bequest to
the servants. But you know, anybody who owns a hut,
anybody who owns a car, you know, anybody who's got
some savings that's in the state of super anuation.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I think that's part of the barrier as well. I
think that a lot of people think that, you know, wow,
I don't have a vast asset holding, and therefore I'm
not eligible to write a will, or it's not worthwhile
me writing a will because I don't have a huge
fortune to pass on to future generations. But really it's
not about how much you own. It's about making it
easier for people who are left behind to deal with
(12:35):
your estate. Whether it is just a superannuation account and
a bank account, in a car or a property. It
doesn't need to be fast asset holdings to justify making
a will.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I mean, in my case it is all barries, but
it is your life.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, effectively, it's your life and what happens with it.
Can I ask a question, what about an Instagram account
and stuff like that? Can they be bequeathed in wills?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah? Absolutely so. Increasingly social media accounts and digital businesses
they are seen as assets. So meta have a section
as part of their accounts that most people don't know
about that allow people to provide access to other people
or profiles. Upon death. You can actually select from a
(13:27):
prelisted set of options whether you want the account closed down,
passed on to another person.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Maybe this is something that needs we need to sharpen
people's focus on it. If you don't, I think most
people would assume. I think many people would assume that
if you don't write a will, well, it automatically goes
to the wife for all the children.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So that's not the case. There are two major implications
passing away without a will. The first is that your
estate will be divided according to a statutory government formula.
So rather than you dictating exactly how you'd want your
estate divided, whether you want your kids to inherit, your
partner left to charity, the government has a predetermined formula
(14:06):
for how your state gets divided based on your family
circumstances that may or may not align with your personal wishes.
So the first is being able to have a measure
of control over how your state is going to be divided.
On top of that, the process for administering in a
state without a will becomes a whole lot more complex
than where there is a legally valid, straightforward willing place.
(14:29):
So instead of going down to the sort of bread
and butter probate route where there's clear instructions and the
court will generally pay effect to the wishes in a will,
you need to go down the letters of administration around.
It becomes a lot more expensive, a lot more complicated,
and a protracted legal process for a lot of families
where they are relying on the proceeds of a state
(14:51):
to pay for food, to pay a mortgage, an extra month,
an extra few months in trying to administer in the
state can be quite Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I like what Adam said, Barrye is that you know
you're not doing it for yourself. You're doing it for
those you know, to leave behind, for your wife, your partner,
for your children and so forth. So they don't have
to suddenly deal They're not dealing with what Adam's just
describing there, you know, protracted, messy legal process.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
No, I agree. I mean, like I said, I whatever
I do, I want to do the very best I
can for my children. That's the most important thing in
the world to me is my children and how they
live their life once I'm gone, and I want to know,
like I'd like to change a lot of the world
so we have a better place for them. But if
administering and I discuss my wife and I are very
(15:39):
open about, you know, how we discuss this and that
sort of thing because it's important because you know, one
minute you're a single guy. You know, I'll tell you
my life. One minute you're a single you're a single guy,
and then all of a sudden you're in love. Something's
happened you've acquired property, you've had a child, you've had
(16:02):
a career switch that you've had a bit of luck,
or you've had a bit of bad luck, and all
of a sudden, you're sitting sixty four years old with
a blood cancer that car pecured and twelve year old twins.
It happens by that. Yeah, And whilst that might sound
a little gloom, I love my life and I'm really
(16:22):
happy that I've done the best I can for future generations.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I think that's one of the interesting things about a
will as a product is that it's something that you
have to write that you will never be able to
use and you'll never be able to see the benefit of.
And it really is an interesting fact. It's your biography
that's exactly right. So you can never do it for
you because you're never going to be able to use
the will. It has to be done in service if
(16:49):
you loved one's little legacy.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I wonder if that's another barrier. I wonder if that's
another thing that unconsciously where along with the denial of debt,
it's also not for us, so we don't really care
about it. We've got to we've got to make people
care about it.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Let me add to that, I do a lot of
personal coaching as well, and some of my executives will
make very drastic changes to the wills at very irrational
times when they're angry, when it's after a divorce, and
you know, I think, I think you for me anyway,
I'm I'm really happy with the decisions I've made because
(17:25):
they're they're not for me. They're not away for me
to hurt someone or help someone. Therefore, the best that
can happen for my kids and my wife.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Can Can all wills be challenged? Or can you make
a will that so that this this will be followed? No,
no strange cousin can come out of the woodwork. No, no,
brother you're a strange from can serly start to challenge them.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
It's a great question and it's a really interesting part
of the law. Any will can be challenged, so nothing
can stop a potential beneficiary coming forward and making a
claim on the will. The best thing that can be
done is to have a very clear, up to date
set of instructions. Socialize those instructions so the sort of
(18:08):
old perception of you know, I've written a will, need
to hide it in my cupboard and not let anyone
see it until they pass away. Not a great idea.
The more well known, the more justified, the more explained
the wishes are, the less likely they can be challenged
because people know about it.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It's been expressed, Tell them once, tell the family.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
One exactly right. And so I think having a surprise
will is often where you have that emotional reactions from
people about oh wow, I wasn't expecting that, or you know,
I thought I'd be getting more, or I thought this
instruction would look like this, And so surprises when it
comes to wills and the states is generally not a
great idea.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
See, I want the reading, I want the crusty old
lawyer in the mahogany room, and you all can have
my underpaths. You know. That's what I'm hoping.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It's a great hollo a lot less good for real
life h.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So, but so it can be challenged. I'm interested in.
I mentioned that notion that you're saying, tell everybody about it.
I think we tend to be private. We think this
is very private if we're thinking about it, and if
we've done it, it's sort of very personal and you
won't find out I'm not going to tell you exactly
exactly what's happening.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I mean, look, there are a lot of circumstances
where it makes sense to keep things confidential. There can
be instructions that would be problematic or that you know,
people might disagree with. And generally speaking, though, where wishes
are very well known, they've been discussed over a long
period of time, because as bas said, you know, try
(19:38):
to make sure that that people don't make impulsive wills
or impulsive decisions when it comes to a state planning.
And the more well known and socialized wishes are, generally speaking,
the better the results for the family way.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
And we're probably talking about this in a fairly simple
kind of procedure, where aren't we We're talking about you know,
it's a it's a family, there's there's a house. There's
some brannuation on it, guys, vastly complicated when we start
to talk about farms or family businesses or things like this.
That requires real planning, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Absolutely, And that's where you start moving from sort of
estate plans to succession plans and considerations around businesses, trust
structures becomes a lot more complicated. So for us, what
we've built by way of product is a digital platform
that allows people to create a straightforward will, access on
demand legal advice from our law firm as well, where
(20:33):
they do have business interest, our trust structures generally that
get in touch with our law firm and access what's
called the testamentary trust will, which creates a trust structure
around the will and to allow for more effective asset transfer.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Is yours water tight? I suppose Another way I'm thinking
about this is what's the absolute minimum requirement? Are those
willkits from the post office or the news agent or
something like that? Are they? But they order type.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
They can be if done correctly, So I think one
of the challenges with I mean again, a willkit, if
filled in properly from the post office, can absolutely be
a buying valid will. The challenge comes with users following
the instructions correctly and not having limits to what they
can put in fields, as well as the complications around
(21:23):
signing and updating the will. So a pape based willkit
becomes very difficult to update and it's generally recommended you
tear it up and write a new one. A platform
like safe will. The difference between a digital willkit and
a post office or a paper based willkit. With digital instructions,
you're limited by what you can put in certain fields.
(21:46):
There's a review process for everyone that gets submitted on
our platform, so our partner author and make sure that
the will has been filled in correctly and the people
who have put the right instructions in the right places.
Because most of us aren't lawyer, we don't know exactly
what an executor is. We don't know the difference between
in a state and a gift, and so yeah, providing
(22:06):
that level of oversight is quite important.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Look great to talk to you both. Barry, you've done
a will, Adam, you've done yours. Absolutely, I thought you
might have. So Statistically, one out of three people in
this room haven't done their will. Is that about? Is
that about the national stats as well?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, that's correct. So the national stats, I mean they're
widely publicized and they do seem to vary, but about
one in three Australians over the age of fifty haven't
done a will, and of those that have, about fifty
percent haven't updated in the last five years. A lot
of people don't realize that certain changes to personal circumstances
(22:45):
can actually invalidate part or all of their will. Things
like getting married, getting divorced, entering into a blended family
structure can have significant impacts on the validity of your will.
So important firstly to write your will, James, and then
it's important to also make sure that it's updated and kept.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Today we'll proud to be part of the lazy. Third,
what I like is you'll probably come back and do
this again next year, and I'll go this coming around again.
I still haven't done it. I promise to do it.
It's not that hard. Finish off the process, get it done,
or I'll.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Be saying to Adam, I'm sure it done, is well?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Should he? Yeah? Exactly?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And so what's your name then, new interviewer?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's such a pity. Yes, you
just proved totally resistant to the whole thing. Adam, give
us the tip. I mean, maybe there's common myths that
we all have about the will. I mean I had
to see a big mahogany room with a crusty old
lawyer reading out the will. Does that happen or debunk
some of the mill the will myths? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Absolutely. I think one of the biggest myths is that
everything has to be entirely perfect to write your will.
In reality, having something in place is better than nothing.
So our recommendation is to get it done, get it printed,
get it signed, and get safely stored, and then to
make sure that you are coming back to revisit it
and update it. It is easy to update a will.
(24:06):
It doesn't need to be absolutely perfect. Any in place,
and so our biggest tip is to take the leap,
stop putting it off, and right your will.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, okay, this feels so personal when you say that, Barry,
what have you found out about will suits whole process?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's interesting. I think everybody thinks I don't have enough
to do a will, or it's too hard, or I
don't want to talk about death and that sort of thing.
But as someone who's done a will and is regularly
updating it, it's a cathartic feeling. I know that doing
my will is part of being the best person I
can be. And when I say the best person I
(24:44):
can be, I mean I want my life to be
remembered as perfect. Everything about it was perfect, nothing went wrong,
and that transition to my legacy as part of that.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
That's a good point. Wills aren't mean tested No, you
don't need a certain level of assets to write a will.
Everyone should have one, if you've got loved ones, if
you've got even simple affairs, it's worth having a simple
willing place to make sure that if anything did happen,
your affairs are in order and protective.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Very great to meet you, Thanks so much, Thank you, Adam, fantastic,
Thank you jas Well. I hope you've enjoyed this episode
of Life's Booming and it's inspired you to go and
update your will. If it hasn't, well, just go and
do it. What's wrong with you? Get it done. We'll
have more life Booming coming your way soon. I'll look
forward to seeing you again there. For more Life's Booming,
visit seniors dot com dot au. Slash podcast brought to
(25:39):
you by Australian Seniors
Hello, I'm James Valentine and welcome to a special episode
of Life's Booming. And we're calling this episode where there's
a Will, there's a relative. Many Australians put off creating
or updating their wills, often because it feels like it's
something that can be addressed later. But in reality, life
is unpredictable and having a current will is an important
step to protect your family and reflect how you'd like
(00:28):
to leave your affairs when that time comes. October the
twentieth is Update your Will date And if you know
anyone who's got a will and needs to update it,
please share this podcast with them and then leave us
a comment, leave us a review. So on this episode
we're going to explore wills and the need to update
it and in some ways the ease of updating it
with two really great guests. So we'll be joined by
(00:50):
Barry du Bois, who you might remember from the Living
Room was a great show on renovation and home design
and that sort of stuff. He's been a designer and
a builder. These days, he's now focusing on mental health.
He's a keynote speaker on these issues and he's got
an extraordinary story to tell. Adam Lebowski is a CEO
and founder of Safe Will, a platform that you can
(01:11):
use online to complete your will and get all that done. So,
Barry Adam, thanks for joining us. Barry, you're one of
the few people I know who's heard the immortal words
it's time to put your affairs in order.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, it happened to me in two thousand and eleven,
and that's exactly what she said. I think the best
thing you can do is go home, tidy up your affairs.
And you've got about three months to go.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
What do you have Who was telling you?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Okay? Well that was one of three doctors I was
sitting in front of. I'm smiling about it now, but
it was My wife was beside me. She was in tears.
I've been I went in for to pick up some
X rays for something I thought was really minor that
morning at nine o'clock. From there, I ended up at
Saint Vincent's Hospital and I've been in and out of
(01:57):
seat machines all day. I had several blood tears. I've
been the right machine and what seemed like a perfectly
normal day. At four o'clock that afternoon, I sat before
three doctors and the first one says, Bart, I think
you should just go home, tidy up your affairs. This
is too aggressive, it's too big, it's cancer. This being
(02:18):
a placement sidee my loma and based my brain there.
And I said, well, thanks for that. I use my
wife used an expletive of where she thought she should go.
And I said, I don't want you on my team.
You're not part of anything I do from now on.
And I said to the next doctor, I'm not sure
what your expertise is, but you do the best you
(02:39):
can and I'm going to do whatever I can. And
the third doctor was a bit baffled by my positive attitude.
But I have got a positive attit.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
He's getting rid of the other two. I'll go with
this here.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
And he suggested I got some psychological help. That's that's
not a joke, that's the truth. But he do whatever
he could with my blood. He's a professor of him ptology.
But you know, I did think ninety days what if
they're right? And there was a lot of my time
was taken up with not believing it would happen, making.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Sure if it did up and so up until that point,
did you have a will?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I did, have a will. I retired when I was
forty five. I was very lucky. I'm a very lucky guy.
But until recently, No, no, because I say I'm a
lucky guy. I retired when I was forty five. But
when I was forty I fell fourteen meters off a building.
And that was the time. I didn't have children at stage.
(03:44):
I had just I just lost a friend, and I
thought I didn't care about dying. It wasn't something I
ever focused on. But I thought, you know what, I
have some money, and I'm recently married, and if we're
going to be married, I don't want it to be
any confusion if something happens. Because the morning I fell
(04:05):
off the building, I didn't know I was going to
fall off a building. The morning I got cancer, I
didn't know I was going to get cancer. No one
wakes you up in the morning and says, hey, listen,
by the way, seven days you're out. No one says that.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And so put your affairs in order, was the first
thing you thought of a will?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
No, I'll be honest. When she said that, I thought,
get me out of here. I'm a celebrity, get me
out of here now. I wasn't a celebrity. But I said, now,
just get me out of this place. I don't want
to hear that. I don't believe that, but I will
say this. It's interesting. When a doctor had told me
a couple of years earlier, about five years earlier, that
(04:43):
my mum had about a month ago, I said, you're wrong,
that's not true. That can't happen. And twenty eight days
later she died. So that was the wake up call
for me, was when my mum passed and I knew
it was important that I had a will.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
And when you went back to look at it, you
know like it had been ten years since you looked
at the will or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
It's funny. I'm a control free and I'm a spontaneous
sort of a guy as well, and I live life
to the max, is no doubt about that. But every
now and then I'll say, how long has it been
since I've looked at that will? And a lot has changed,
and in our lives, so much changes, so often, the
(05:28):
dynamics of our environment, our community, who are around us
at the time, all those sorts of things. And for me,
the will is I'm not sure about you, Adam, but
I also have a lot of instructions of what I
think should happen in the future. No one has to
have that, but that's a big part of it for me.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I just want to.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Remind people why my legacy is important. And what I
think I always ask a question is if you could
tell your great great grandchildren one piece of advice, what
is it? So I leave that piece of advice, it's
my will as well.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I would say to my great great grandchildren, update you will. Yeah,
you know, like just keep that regularly, keep it there.
I mean, you're both wearing shirts with update you Will. Adam,
you've been listening to to Barry's story. I mean what
I hear in Barry's story is that sort of strong,
Like really, we just all live with a denial of death,
and doing the will requires a moment where you go,
(06:29):
I'm gonna die.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think that's right for a lot of people. There's
a big emotional barrier to writing the will, and we
actually have a lot of people come to Safe Will,
which is now the nation's largest will writing platform. They'll
fill out the instructions, they'll go to all the effort,
and then there'll just be a barrier to them printing
off and signing and completing the will.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So you're describing me, you are describing me. This is
exactly my wife and I both we've done the safe
will thing. I've had cancer in the last year's still
hasn't made a press print and go and get the
damn thing side.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, there's this barrier. Whether it's emotional cognitive, we're not
quite sure. It seems to tap people in different ways,
but there's something that stops people taking that final step
in what do you think it is?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Is it just that sort of it's too much, it's
too much to admit that we get.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I think for a lot of people it is. I
think that there's also a finality that comes with there's
a perception that finalizing your will that's the last time
that you'll be able to finalize your will. Because so
many people put it off, they won't update their will regularly.
So for a lot of people, there's this big decision
hurdle to get over in executing their will. And part
(07:39):
of what we've tried to design in digital platforms to
make it very easy for people to come back update
their will lead further instructions, and Daz was saying, you know,
if you're going away on a flight. You want to
change something or add a little bit more color to
make it as easy as possible for people to try
to overcome that barrier with can.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I say I do a lot of keynote speaking around
the mental health space, and I say this in a
lot of my talks. Your will is an important thing,
not just for your legacy, but it's also cathartic. What
you're actually doing is preparing something to know that everything
is the way you want it. Imagine if you could
imagine the last seconds of your life and now I
(08:22):
forgot to do this. I forgot to do that. You know,
when I laid a rest, I want to know everything
is in a good space. And for me, I wrote
a book that was very cathartic, but in a mini way.
Your affairs, the administration of your affairs is a cathartic thing.
You know that you're leaving a legacy and it's going
really clearly where.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
You want it to go. Do you think you would
have done it because it's not You describe your first
encounter with death, your first close encounter with death. If
that's not the only one, You've had another cancer diagnosis,
which also gave you a time frame. Do you think
without that you would have done it? Is this really
sharpened your attention.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
On I said all the time, the vision of mortality,
that water for which is the end? When I'm one
of the few people that are here to talk about that,
I've seen that a couple of times. But I think
I think it puts you in a more positive space.
If that's the answer to that question.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe we shouldn't call an update you
will day, but accept your death day could be.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
There, or want to put another way, it's not accept
your death. None of us is getting out of here alive.
It's just to be the best version of you. If
you create something that is a really straightforward and thought
about at a rational time way you want things to go, well,
(09:46):
that's just being the best person. You can make a
rational decision at a rational time. I didn't have that
rationale in the ninety days. It was funny because I
put that date in my calendar. This is where you
predict that I was going to go, And yeah, I
was probably a lot more irrational at that time. I
was trying to do too many things and trying to
(10:08):
change too much too quickly.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
How detailed. Do we need to be Adam, Can I
just sort of say okay, everything goes to the wife
and sign yes.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
So the will itself, from a legal perspective, doesn't need
to be you know, war and peace. It really can
be a simple set of instructions, which you know, platforms
like ours can take five to ten fifteen minutes. As
I love your framing of it though, as you know,
not just thinking about it from a legal perspective, but
(10:38):
also from the concept of emotional and legacy and being
able to add a little bit more color to you know,
whether it's advice for future generations, whether it's a sentimental gift,
And there's definitely the opportunity to do that as well.
So ticking the legal box and getting something that's effectual
(11:00):
doesn't need to be a huge song in dance. But
that said, for a lot of people there is a
cathasis that comes with in the will being able to
leave a legacy.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But I suppose in practical terms, I'm just asking, is
that you know a simple sentence that says all of
my property goes to my wife or goes to my children,
divided in three ways. Do I have to provide all
the documents about that property and list everything.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Absolutely not, absolutely not. I definitely would recommend a self
drafted will because there are certain things that again, whether
going with a lawyer or a platforms being designed by lawyers,
the documents will be a lot more effective and comprehensive.
But you know, for ours as an example, there are
four mandatory areas in thinking about how your state is divided,
(11:48):
who acts as your executive and so on. But once
you've done that, you've got an effective will, and so
it really can be as easy as ten minutes from.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I wonder if it sounds a bit bit grand almost
when you say your state, You know, I start to
see down to abbey really and I'm a bequest to
the servants. But you know, anybody who owns a hut,
anybody who owns a car, you know, anybody who's got
some savings that's in the state of super anuation.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I think that's part of the barrier as well. I
think that a lot of people think that, you know, wow,
I don't have a vast asset holding, and therefore I'm
not eligible to write a will, or it's not worthwhile
me writing a will because I don't have a huge
fortune to pass on to future generations. But really it's
not about how much you own. It's about making it
easier for people who are left behind to deal with
(12:35):
your estate. Whether it is just a superannuation account and
a bank account, in a car or a property. It
doesn't need to be fast asset holdings to justify making
a will.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I mean, in my case it is all barries, but
it is your life.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, effectively, it's your life and what happens with it.
Can I ask a question, what about an Instagram account
and stuff like that? Can they be bequeathed in wills?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah? Absolutely so. Increasingly social media accounts and digital businesses
they are seen as assets. So meta have a section
as part of their accounts that most people don't know
about that allow people to provide access to other people
or profiles. Upon death. You can actually select from a
(13:27):
prelisted set of options whether you want the account closed down,
passed on to another person.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Maybe this is something that needs we need to sharpen
people's focus on it. If you don't, I think most
people would assume. I think many people would assume that
if you don't write a will, well, it automatically goes
to the wife for all the children.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So that's not the case. There are two major implications
passing away without a will. The first is that your
estate will be divided according to a statutory government formula.
So rather than you dictating exactly how you'd want your
estate divided, whether you want your kids to inherit, your
partner left to charity, the government has a predetermined formula
(14:06):
for how your state gets divided based on your family
circumstances that may or may not align with your personal wishes.
So the first is being able to have a measure
of control over how your state is going to be divided.
On top of that, the process for administering in a
state without a will becomes a whole lot more complex
than where there is a legally valid, straightforward willing place.
(14:29):
So instead of going down to the sort of bread
and butter probate route where there's clear instructions and the
court will generally pay effect to the wishes in a will,
you need to go down the letters of administration around.
It becomes a lot more expensive, a lot more complicated,
and a protracted legal process for a lot of families
where they are relying on the proceeds of a state
(14:51):
to pay for food, to pay a mortgage, an extra month,
an extra few months in trying to administer in the
state can be quite Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I like what Adam said, Barrye is that you know
you're not doing it for yourself. You're doing it for
those you know, to leave behind, for your wife, your partner,
for your children and so forth. So they don't have
to suddenly deal They're not dealing with what Adam's just
describing there, you know, protracted, messy legal process.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
No, I agree. I mean, like I said, I whatever
I do, I want to do the very best I
can for my children. That's the most important thing in
the world to me is my children and how they
live their life once I'm gone, and I want to know,
like I'd like to change a lot of the world
so we have a better place for them. But if
administering and I discuss my wife and I are very
(15:39):
open about, you know, how we discuss this and that
sort of thing because it's important because you know, one
minute you're a single guy. You know, I'll tell you
my life. One minute you're a single you're a single guy,
and then all of a sudden you're in love. Something's
happened you've acquired property, you've had a child, you've had
(16:02):
a career switch that you've had a bit of luck,
or you've had a bit of bad luck, and all
of a sudden, you're sitting sixty four years old with
a blood cancer that car pecured and twelve year old twins.
It happens by that. Yeah, And whilst that might sound
a little gloom, I love my life and I'm really
(16:22):
happy that I've done the best I can for future generations.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I think that's one of the interesting things about a
will as a product is that it's something that you
have to write that you will never be able to
use and you'll never be able to see the benefit of.
And it really is an interesting fact. It's your biography
that's exactly right. So you can never do it for
you because you're never going to be able to use
the will. It has to be done in service if
(16:49):
you loved one's little legacy.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I wonder if that's another barrier. I wonder if that's
another thing that unconsciously where along with the denial of debt,
it's also not for us, so we don't really care
about it. We've got to we've got to make people
care about it.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Let me add to that, I do a lot of
personal coaching as well, and some of my executives will
make very drastic changes to the wills at very irrational
times when they're angry, when it's after a divorce, and
you know, I think, I think you for me anyway,
I'm I'm really happy with the decisions I've made because
(17:25):
they're they're not for me. They're not away for me
to hurt someone or help someone. Therefore, the best that
can happen for my kids and my wife.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Can Can all wills be challenged? Or can you make
a will that so that this this will be followed? No,
no strange cousin can come out of the woodwork. No, no,
brother you're a strange from can serly start to challenge them.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
It's a great question and it's a really interesting part
of the law. Any will can be challenged, so nothing
can stop a potential beneficiary coming forward and making a
claim on the will. The best thing that can be
done is to have a very clear, up to date
set of instructions. Socialize those instructions so the sort of
(18:08):
old perception of you know, I've written a will, need
to hide it in my cupboard and not let anyone
see it until they pass away. Not a great idea.
The more well known, the more justified, the more explained
the wishes are, the less likely they can be challenged
because people know about it.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It's been expressed, Tell them once, tell the family.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
One exactly right. And so I think having a surprise
will is often where you have that emotional reactions from
people about oh wow, I wasn't expecting that, or you know,
I thought I'd be getting more, or I thought this
instruction would look like this, And so surprises when it
comes to wills and the states is generally not a
great idea.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
See, I want the reading, I want the crusty old
lawyer in the mahogany room, and you all can have
my underpaths. You know. That's what I'm hoping.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It's a great hollo a lot less good for real
life h.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So, but so it can be challenged. I'm interested in.
I mentioned that notion that you're saying, tell everybody about it.
I think we tend to be private. We think this
is very private if we're thinking about it, and if
we've done it, it's sort of very personal and you
won't find out I'm not going to tell you exactly
exactly what's happening.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I mean, look, there are a lot of circumstances
where it makes sense to keep things confidential. There can
be instructions that would be problematic or that you know,
people might disagree with. And generally speaking, though, where wishes
are very well known, they've been discussed over a long
period of time, because as bas said, you know, try
(19:38):
to make sure that that people don't make impulsive wills
or impulsive decisions when it comes to a state planning.
And the more well known and socialized wishes are, generally speaking,
the better the results for the family way.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
And we're probably talking about this in a fairly simple
kind of procedure, where aren't we We're talking about you know,
it's a it's a family, there's there's a house. There's
some brannuation on it, guys, vastly complicated when we start
to talk about farms or family businesses or things like this.
That requires real planning, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Absolutely, And that's where you start moving from sort of
estate plans to succession plans and considerations around businesses, trust
structures becomes a lot more complicated. So for us, what
we've built by way of product is a digital platform
that allows people to create a straightforward will, access on
demand legal advice from our law firm as well, where
(20:33):
they do have business interest, our trust structures generally that
get in touch with our law firm and access what's
called the testamentary trust will, which creates a trust structure
around the will and to allow for more effective asset transfer.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Is yours water tight? I suppose Another way I'm thinking
about this is what's the absolute minimum requirement? Are those
willkits from the post office or the news agent or
something like that? Are they? But they order type.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
They can be if done correctly, So I think one
of the challenges with I mean again, a willkit, if
filled in properly from the post office, can absolutely be
a buying valid will. The challenge comes with users following
the instructions correctly and not having limits to what they
can put in fields, as well as the complications around
(21:23):
signing and updating the will. So a pape based willkit
becomes very difficult to update and it's generally recommended you
tear it up and write a new one. A platform
like safe will. The difference between a digital willkit and
a post office or a paper based willkit. With digital instructions,
you're limited by what you can put in certain fields.
(21:46):
There's a review process for everyone that gets submitted on
our platform, so our partner author and make sure that
the will has been filled in correctly and the people
who have put the right instructions in the right places.
Because most of us aren't lawyer, we don't know exactly
what an executor is. We don't know the difference between
in a state and a gift, and so yeah, providing
(22:06):
that level of oversight is quite important.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Look great to talk to you both. Barry, you've done
a will, Adam, you've done yours. Absolutely, I thought you
might have. So Statistically, one out of three people in
this room haven't done their will. Is that about? Is
that about the national stats as well?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, that's correct. So the national stats, I mean they're
widely publicized and they do seem to vary, but about
one in three Australians over the age of fifty haven't
done a will, and of those that have, about fifty
percent haven't updated in the last five years. A lot
of people don't realize that certain changes to personal circumstances
(22:45):
can actually invalidate part or all of their will. Things
like getting married, getting divorced, entering into a blended family
structure can have significant impacts on the validity of your will.
So important firstly to write your will, James, and then
it's important to also make sure that it's updated and kept.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Today we'll proud to be part of the lazy. Third,
what I like is you'll probably come back and do
this again next year, and I'll go this coming around again.
I still haven't done it. I promise to do it.
It's not that hard. Finish off the process, get it done,
or I'll.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Be saying to Adam, I'm sure it done, is well?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Should he? Yeah? Exactly?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And so what's your name then, new interviewer?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's such a pity. Yes, you
just proved totally resistant to the whole thing. Adam, give
us the tip. I mean, maybe there's common myths that
we all have about the will. I mean I had
to see a big mahogany room with a crusty old
lawyer reading out the will. Does that happen or debunk
some of the mill the will myths? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Absolutely. I think one of the biggest myths is that
everything has to be entirely perfect to write your will.
In reality, having something in place is better than nothing.
So our recommendation is to get it done, get it printed,
get it signed, and get safely stored, and then to
make sure that you are coming back to revisit it
and update it. It is easy to update a will.
(24:06):
It doesn't need to be absolutely perfect. Any in place,
and so our biggest tip is to take the leap,
stop putting it off, and right your will.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, okay, this feels so personal when you say that, Barry,
what have you found out about will suits whole process?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's interesting. I think everybody thinks I don't have enough
to do a will, or it's too hard, or I
don't want to talk about death and that sort of thing.
But as someone who's done a will and is regularly
updating it, it's a cathartic feeling. I know that doing
my will is part of being the best person I
can be. And when I say the best person I
(24:44):
can be, I mean I want my life to be
remembered as perfect. Everything about it was perfect, nothing went wrong,
and that transition to my legacy as part of that.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
That's a good point. Wills aren't mean tested No, you
don't need a certain level of assets to write a will.
Everyone should have one, if you've got loved ones, if
you've got even simple affairs, it's worth having a simple
willing place to make sure that if anything did happen,
your affairs are in order and protective.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Very great to meet you, Thanks so much, Thank you, Adam, fantastic,
Thank you jas Well. I hope you've enjoyed this episode
of Life's Booming and it's inspired you to go and
update your will. If it hasn't, well, just go and
do it. What's wrong with you? Get it done. We'll
have more life Booming coming your way soon. I'll look
forward to seeing you again there. For more Life's Booming,
visit seniors dot com dot au. Slash podcast brought to
(25:39):
you by Australian Seniors
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