December 24, 2025 • 45 mins
This summer we are curating your Lowbrow podcast playlist bringing you the insanely popular and always funny - brutally honest reviews from our friends on The Spill. Enjoy!
The White Lotus is over for another season which means it’s time for a Brutally Honest Review!
In this episode we talk about the casting choice the creators were most nervous about, the important scenes that were cut and the best and worst moments from the entire season.
We also say what no one else would about that viral incest scene, talk about the most misunderstood storyline in the series and admit we love the most problematic character who appeared on screen.
From hidden details in the final scene to how the cast really behaved off camera, this is The White Lotus review you’ve been waiting for.
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Hosts: Laura Brodnik & Em Vernem
Executive Producer: Ned Green and Amy Kimball
Audio Producer: Scott Stronach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on HI.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
It's Laura Brodneck here, host of our pop culture and
entertainment podcast The Spill, and this summer we're curating your
lowbrow playlist, bringing you our brutally honest reviews from the
top TV shows of the year, to the biggest movies
of twenty twenty five, and some of the classics that
shaped us. Every episode is giving you the Spills, completely
(00:39):
unfiltered and real takes. So your summer listening is sorted.
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
Mamma Mea podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
there is something for everyone. Just follow the link in
our show notes from Mamma Mia.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Welcome to The Spill, your daily pop culture fix. I'm
m Vernon and I'm Laura Brodney and god I love
these episodes. We are doing a brutally honest review of
this so if you're confused, this was this season's theme song. Yes,
(01:28):
we have talked about how it's a bit different to
the last two seasons. That's a huge feud about it,
and then you can read, so do that in your
own time, because we are doing a broadly honest review
of season three of The White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yes, and if you're new to our brudly honest review series,
then this is the episode where we deep dive on
the biggest movie or TV show that has just come
out this week. So there are going to be spoilers galore.
But also, if you've gotten to this point of the
week and you don't know how The White Lotus ends,
you must just be living in like a cave under
a mountain surrounded by cement, because there's no way, there's
(02:03):
no way to hide from that. But yes, we're gonna
be going deep on spoilers, behind the scenes, fact some
unpopular opinions on how the show ended and how the
characters worked, all that sort of stuff. We haven't discussed
anything yet, so each other's opinions are going to be
a surprise. So that's all we're getting into. But yeah,
so this season The White Lotus was set in Thailand.
There was almost like a bit of a bidding war
(02:24):
between a lot of countries of where the White Lotus
would be set because a lot of countries were scouted
for different sets and locations. Thailand sort of gave them
like quite a big tax break and also offered some
incentive through their tourism partners. Even with that, though, it
still ended up being the most expensive season of The
White Lotus yet interesting, which I find yet very interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Maybe next season we can do like White Lotus and
Barren Bay.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
That would be the most expensive season. Also, the orether
to be so expensive for the cast because Walter Goggins,
who plays Rick, was saying that he didn't realize how
expensive it would for him to be personally on The
White Lotus because they obviously fly you there to shoot
the show, and they pay for your hotel room because
you live in the hotel that you filled the show at.
But the cast have to pay for all their incidental
So at the end of like the first month of filming,
(03:10):
they all got their room bills and he was like, literally,
I'm losing money because he got too many like salted
cashews and things and didn't realize how expensive they were.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Funny, and they were all on the same salary and
they were all non negotiable salaries.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, exactly. That's what Mike White the creator sets up
when he made the White Loaders, is that every single
person has to audition and then they're all also paid
the same salary. And can you guess who had a
problem with that messy behind the scenes best friend Jason Isaacs.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I was like, Jason, out of everyone there, you're not
getting paid more. He thought, oh no.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
So if you missed yesterday's episode, we were talking about
some of the feuds that have happened behind the White
Loaders because we can't get into he would just he
would love to tell you everything that happened. So we
talked yesterday about how he was sort of talking about
feuds and making and he's been very messy behind the scenes.
But he was saying that he found it very strange
(04:07):
that he had to audition, because he said, look, I
don't want to have.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Not seen all eight Harry Potter films.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
That's pretty much what he said, because he said, look,
I don't want to get too big for my boots.
But really, Mike, I have to meet with a casting director.
I walked through Times Square and my face was on
like five billboards talking about Harry Potter days. Obviously, so anyway,
what's also the interesting thing about this third season of
The White Loatice is that Mike White has said the
first season was to highlight money and wealth. The second
(04:36):
season was to highlight sex and like the power it
can give and how it can shape relationships and money
and wealth. Yes, exactly, I mean that's just always a given.
And this third season was meant to be a kind
of a satirical look at a spirituality. But also how like,
especially like white Western people can go and like take
over Eastern religion, take the wrong message for her to
(04:56):
make it for themselves, which we particularly see with I
think the Rightliff family, but all of them to its extent.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, I really like that messaging. Because as I was
reading a lot of reviews on this and largely a
lot of people don't like this season. Personally, it was
my favorite season of all three. Yeah, three to two
one oh.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Mine's two one three oh.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So like the other girls, I hate you, this might
be a very unpopular opigon.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Okay, this is a safe space, only diehard spillers listen
to it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I was looking on socials, a lot of people were
quite vocal about how much they don't like this season,
And I think that's mainly because this season is so
reflective of a particular class in society that's also an
achievable class. And exactly what you said, Season one was
about money and wealth. That was a class that I
feel like was so unachievable. But this class of people
(05:48):
going to resorts in Thailand still so expensive. You still
have to have a certain amount of privilege to be
able to do that, but people can still do that.
And I think a lot of people who watched this
season could see some certain reflections of themselves and just
hated it.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
This is why I'm just going to say a lot
of white millennial women like me get really angry at
shows like Emily Power Rus or Sex and the City
or The Ball type because it's like it's too close
to the mirror, is too close to these women that
you hate, like it's me. I also just think on that,
just to touch on sort of like a lot of
people who didn't like this season or who thought it
was really anti climactic. A lot of the criticism was
(06:25):
anti climactic, too slow, and the finale was unsatisfying because
they thought it was too many loose threads. And I
thought a lot about that. Obviously, there were some storylines
that feel like they need more attention, or you know,
some areas where you think, oh, I feel like they
dropped the ball there. But I think overall, people are
just watching the show the wrong way at the moment
because they're watching it like it's this big murder mystery
(06:47):
with all these secret clues and every single scene has
something hid in the background. It all means to you
like everyone's watching it like they're a detective. But it's
not a murder mystery. It's a character study. And I
think with the first season, no one knew what to expect,
and this thing that was made during a pandemic and
the cast were locked away and it just came on
to our screens. We just watched it that way and
we were just so into all these different character dynamics.
(07:09):
And season two the mystery heated up a little bit.
But season three, everyone came in being like, I'm going
to solve the mystery in the first episode, and it's like,
it's not about that.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, and it's never a mystery, like you kind of
figure it out like as it's going. Yeah. The best
thing about when this series first came out is that
they did it so well with season one, where you
completely forget that someone's actually dead, like one of the
characters like someone's dead, and then because they stuck with
that theme for season two, it felt like it was
the ongoing thing that only everyone cared about. So after
(07:40):
every episode of season three, instead of what we were
doing for the last two seasons, where we were diving
in deep into each character and like what they wanted
and their flaws and their secrets, every single episode, we
were just like, Oh, I wonder if they're dead, like
if they're the person who's which.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Is really annoying, I agree, which I think also a
lot of people have just missed a lot of not everyone,
but maybe just people who were screaming the loudest online,
which is always the case. I guess people have missed
a lot more of the nuances and the character moments,
and also just the freedom that comes with having a
show where you can just let the characters go for
a little bit. I got to interview a few of
the cast when they're in Australia, and Leslie Bierb, who
plays Kate, who's one of the three blonde best friends,
(08:18):
was saying that on the first day of filming, because
they went to film first the women. They were just
racing through all of their pages and scenes trying to
like get it done, like we're doing this rarah. And
then Mike White had to come over and be like, okay, stop,
do it all again, because you guys are not like
you in your characters. You're not looking at the material properly.
He's like, it's about how you look at each other.
It's about like the silence. It's about like capturing one
(08:41):
of your faces in the background, and that's what we're
going to do. So they went back and refilmed everything
so good, the new ones of like how they're looking
or what they're not saying and all that sort of stuff.
And I think they were saying that happened with a
lot of the characters. It was about those slow, kind
of meandering moments. And also Mike White was writing a
lot of the scripts like just before they started filming,
(09:01):
like he's still moving things and you know, taking things
out and that sort of stuff. So if you're still
writing when you're about to film, it can't be that intricative,
you know, like the color of the curtains means this.
And also so much ended up on the cutting room floor,
like whole storylines, whole scenes, Like we're really only seeing
a snippet of the story. But you've got to go
with that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You have to go with that.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Okay. So now we've just got all that grievances out
of it, out of the way, getting onto a different
character group. So I think I've have to start with
the storyline that started in season one, and that is
Natasha Rothwell's character of Belinda Lindsay So. She was the
SPA manager from the White Loatus season one in Hawaii.
We saw her pop up again in Thailand. She's on
like a work exchange and it's kind of as like
(09:45):
she's living her best life as much as she can
because she's on a holiday. To an extent, we're also
getting all these different skills and she's having just a
lovely time until Greg John Greese, who has been in
every season the White Loaders so far.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Season I would.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Almost just love that if like every single White Loatus
because here's the big issue that everyone has with Greg. Now,
Gary hunt in the show's name every season, but he's
just great to Gary. I want to do more try
This is the issue people have with him. People aren't
that angry that he had Tanya Jennifer Coolidge's character killed.
They're angry that he's stupid enough to commit a murder
(10:25):
pretty much connected to a White Lotus and he had
his wife killed, who was one of the White Lotus's
highest tier returning members. And then he goes into hiding
while he's wanted for questioning in relation to her mysterious death,
and he hides out at another White Lotus like up
the Hill, but he goes down to the White Lotus
every night. That's a terrible hiding spot. But it also
(10:48):
is like the arrogance of like a rich white man.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I think it also shows that like every character in
the White Lotus is so unlikable, Like every single one
of them. It's like if they were a person in
real life, you know, you would absolutely hate that person.
And it also shows that with these people, which we
actually do see in Belinda's character as the season goes on,
is actually kind of rep greg in a way where
(11:11):
like once you get so much money, you just kind
of like turn into a person that you hated, Yeah,
and you just like kind of lose like all senses.
Like he doesn't think right he's just got so much
money that he doesn't need to think.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah exactly, yeah, you kind of forget that you're not
untouchable because of the money. Does feel like such a
big buffer, and like to an extent, it is. It's
interesting you brought that up about her changing her personality
almost because well, first of all, he also said that
he came up with season three when he was hospitalized
for bronchitis and he was on like a breathing machine
and he had like a fever dream because he was
on a lot of drugs, and he woke up the
(11:43):
next morning with the White Oatus season three plot in
his head. And sometimes that shows, oh, like all the
incestful moon stuff.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Every like tortured creative is like writing that down. Yeah, yeah,
go to hospital, go on breathing machine. But his reason
for bringing back Natasha rothwell as Belinda, is that he
got a lot of criticism for how her storyline ended
in season one and.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
People were like, oh my gosh, that poor woman, like
you know, she has no say she did this. You
treat her so badly. And his idea was that this character,
who he thought was like quite complex and layered, and
then Natasha Rothwell's portrayal of her was so good that
everyone was kind of just putting her into this like
character list woman of color who just lived to serve
this white woman and was like and once she was
(12:25):
like chastised and abandoned by her, her story was over
and she couldn't do anything, and she was like also
going to be this like moral compass, like she would
never do any or say anything wrong because she's like
this beacon of spirituality, whereas she's like everyone else, she's
just a normal character who's like really layered. So bringing
her back and having her make the decision to take
that huge amount of money and not turn this man
(12:46):
in for murder and probably a thousand other bad things
that he's done was showing that like money can corrupt anyone.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, I found that storyline very interesting because, like it
was a sad character in season one, but it also
I think spoke to the truth of exactly what those
workers would feel like getting glimmers of hope and then
just never having that follow through. And what I liked
about her character in season three was that it was
never like a white night moment where someone like saved
(13:13):
her out of that. I mean someone did technically, but
like she pushed herself to do it, and Tanya did
treat her really badly and like that kind of I
guess conflict within herself and whether to accept the money
or not. But I also thought the five million specifically
was so interesting because five million is a lot of money,
(13:34):
especially if it's a character like Belinda. It's a lot
of money, but it's not enough money to retire, yeah, yeah,
And it's also too much money to like find the
thing you want to do and be happy about it,
like you don't want to work, but you can't retire,
And it's that weird like limbo amount where I'm just like,
I don't know what she will do with that.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, I mean I hadn't thought about that, and that
tide of it that she can't retire. I'd be like, yeah,
I definitely retire in five million, not in Sydney, though,
I guess, Yeah, what's kind of interesting about that. As
much as I'm saying to people like here, like oh,
you guys thought she was this overly moral character and
all that sort of stuff, like I should just admit,
like so did I I was quite shocked in that
scene where she, you know, son Zion are sitting down
across from Greg and then negotiating, and when she gets
(14:17):
up and goes, we're not doing this, I was just
like I saw this coming, Like, this is a woman
of moral character, and she is gonna not just let
herself get corrupted. She's not letting her son that She's like,
it looks like she's raised him as a single mother,
be corrupted and she's not letting her son fall into this.
And she's getting them out of there and they're gonna leave.
And then I was like, oh my god, are you
gonna be allowed to leave? And then all of a
sudden plot twist, she was like, no, get more money
(14:39):
from him, like this is what we do with playing
good cop bad cop. And I thought that was it
almost played me like all those other people who had
just assumed she was kind of this like background character.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, and then you see it at the end of
like the Tides turning right, like exactly what Tanya did
to her. She did to Porcha like, yeah, said that
she wanted to start a business with him and like
move there and then they could like develop something. And
then she told him like, my circumstances have changed as
and like I've got a lot of money now, and
I think I can do this on my own or
(15:08):
do something else with it instead of like being here
with you. And then when she's like crying on the
boat as she's going home, you see those tears in
a different lens of like it's almost like a relief
cry for her. And then if it was the other
way around, people would be like, oh, that's such a
sad character. But I really want her to come back
in another season as like a like a Tanya essentially,
(15:31):
like a totally different and be the rich person. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I thought she was the least going to say to
him like thanks for the SAX. I know. I thought
they had a real connection. But money changes you. That's
what we learned, you know what me to go the
exact same, I'd also be getting a private boat out
of there and get I.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Love also four million on the private jet alone.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah exactly. Also, everyone keeps saying like why did all
these people like Greg and like we'll get to it later,
but Rick and all this sort of stuff, they just
all keep returning to the white lotus when they've done
the crime. It's like, get out of it. And it's
because they have this kind of privilege of like they
feel untouchable, whereas Belinda, who has lived as a woman
of color and also having to like look after these
rich people on her job for many years, has a
(16:10):
more realistic situation. She's like, we get the money, she'd
get out of here, We're leaving right now. Love that, Okay,
moving on to a different storyline. I guess what really
works well on the White loatus is that you have
all these rich guests and all their crazy storyline, but
then you always have some staff with the white loaders
who have like their storylines as well. And this season
real glimpse into staff life was with Mook and Guytok. Obviously,
(16:31):
with Mook, there was a lot of build up around
the performance because it was Lisa from Black Pink. I
know that's what her full name, but I just feel
like that's what we call her, right, Lisa from Black Pink.
She doesn't even need last name.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, she just goes by Lisa.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah. Well, I mean exactly, you can just say Lisa
and we know who she's so arguably Jason Isaacs the
most famous person in the cast.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
What I love about Mook's character, which is also very
similar to Fabian. Is that What White Lotus does really
well is that they introduce you to so many characters
and you have to pick in your head which ones
are going to be the ones that they run with storylines,
because like Mook and Fabian, they didn't have that big
of a storyline, but they were like such important inside characters.
(17:10):
I mean, Fabian just wanted to sing.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I pushed in the water at the end.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I was like, sleeve him alone so much, all that
build up of him being so anxious to sing. We
see him sing for like three seconds, then we go
straight to the women arguing with each other.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
It was so funny, fun Maybe he'll show up again,
I think as the new hotel manager.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
But Gaytalk also was such a brilliant character. I feel
like the first few episodes I saw Gaytalk, I was like,
because we knew someone was going to die by a
shooting because we see the shooting in the first episode.
And then after we introduced to Kaytalk, I was like,
oh God, if he's the security guard, they're all gonna die.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, what a sweet man. He just wants to take
Mook on a date. And why wouldn't you, Because as
Chelsea says, she's so pretty.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
She's stunning. What did you think of their relationship? Because
I feel like I was really rooting for them as
like a couple, and then it felt like she was
a bit insidious with him.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Because I feel like when they went to watch the
fight together and she was kind of like pushing him
to be this person that he didn't want to be. Yeah,
and we see at the end that he ends up
being that person, and it's hard to figure out whether
he became that person obviously. Like what I mean is
like when he shot Rick, he became that person. I
don't know if it was for him or to date
her essentially.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I mean I feel like a lot of it was
because he had this desire, like he's in love with
her and he has this desire to be with her,
and so he was happy to like change.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And she wasn't giving him the time of day for her.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah. Well that's why I was never like a super
into the romance because the way it's set up is
like I love them both as characters, but it was
never super set up to be invested in their love stories.
What I was thinking because when he first UKs are out,
it's almost like he's like, I know your brother and
I know your family, and he was kind of pushing
her to have lunch together, and you can see she
definitely just wants to be having lunch with her friends.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
She literally giggled and said, you're also funny. And then.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Well, this is like you've got to think of the
context again of us as sort of like inventing all
this stuff with these characters. It's like, this is her
brother's like older, maybe slightly weird or whatever, who's maybe
like a bit of a brother to her. All of
a sudden, he was like, no, come to lunch with me,
and like saying I want to take you on a date.
And it's this kind of weird thing of where she
sort of laughs and she's like, I get me. My
guess so. But you never feel like she's super into it.
(19:22):
She obviously cares about him, and I think a lot
of that is that they have this big shared history. Yeah,
but I just didn't want them to be endgame. But
maybe she was. Once he became like a burly, gunwielding
security guard, she was like, I'm into it.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
That's fine. Yeah. If there were one part of the
entire season that I felt like was underdeveloped. It was
the workers at the result, because I felt like Mike
White did such a great job at developing those characters,
especially the hotel managers from season one and season two,
who were these brilliant, strong characters who would always side
eye their guests because they were like, these guys are
(19:55):
so annoyingly privileged, and I felt like that opportunity was
missticks and maybe for the lady who.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Had to deal with the Rattler family. Oh my god, No,
she was incredible. So I interviewed her as well, because
she's a New Zealand actress, but she has been neighbors
and stuff in Austraya. We claim her as an Astorian actress.
And I interviewed her when I interview the other cast members,
and it's so interesting Morgana a Riley, because she was
telling me all these different things that she put into
her character and like some of them won't use, but
(20:20):
like when Chelsea and Rick first arrive off the boat
and she's saying to look like, oh, you're so pretty
if you look in the background, Morgana was telling me.
When I watched her back, I saw it. You can
see that like she's reacting to her she's like thinking
that Chelsea's calling her pretty well, and then all the
stuff are being like no, no, no, she doesn't mean you,
and like all this. So there's all these like plotlines. Yeah,
and like when she's moving the blender around in when
she's taking stuff over to the Ratliff family, she's making
(20:43):
faces behind them and.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
All this sort of stuff. And that's true.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
She's doing all this. So if you look back at
all the staff, they've all got their own storyline going
on the background. But unless you're looking for it, you'll
miss it, which I feel is maybe a missed opportunity because.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
It's never spoken. Yeah, I wish it was spoken because
her like facial expressions with the ratlier family, it's so good,
especially Jason ISAACX that's his name, Timothy Ratliffe, Especially Jason
isaactually placed Timothy every time he told her, no, I
need my phone versus take away all the phone, She's like,
what the hell? Yeah, and she essentially poisoned the sun
(21:16):
by giving him all that information.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I know. That was such a good stuf. I think
her best line when she's like good on you and
good on you at first, when Timothy Ratliff is saying
that his son Saxon works for him and all that
sort of build up just to finish up with Mukan
Guytok's storyline. Obviously. I mean they come out okay because
he gets the job he wants and she, you know,
seems to be she's with her bad boy. Yeah, she's
finally with a bad boy. We get it, We've all
(21:39):
been there. But did you think that having her in
that role was distracting? That's what some fans have said.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh, that's such a good question. I don't think it
was distracting. I know people who are huge Black Pink
fans and like K pop fans did find it distracting
because I think all they saw was like Lisa, Yeah,
and I do get it, But I feel like she
actually didn't have that big of a role for it
to be distracting.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
No, I know, but I think it was her casting.
So it's like, if we put like Taylor Swift in
that role, everyone's like, well, you don't get Taylor Swift
unless her role is going to be massive. And I
think a lot of people were saying, like, you don't
get Lisa unless that role is going to be massive.
So as the episodes went on, everyone was just like,
she's like the secret killer, She's got some sort of
a plot she's And when it came out that she
(22:26):
was the character, she was presented to us that she
wasn't hiding, she wasn't like a secret mastermind, she wasn't
ax serial killer anything like that. People felt kind of cheated.
And it's interesting because I was reading some interviews with
the producers and they were saying that they were really
worried to cast her for that reason, that they thought
it might be distracting, but they just went with it
because when she auditioned, she was really good, and she said,
like she's looking to change her career and this was
(22:48):
a new challenge, which I totally get. Like, even if
you're like one of the biggest pop stars in the world,
like she is, a starring role on The White Lotus
is a huge deal. So I kind of get it.
But I don't know. I just I guess I was
never thinking that she was this huge mastermind. I think
she was just there to be in the show. But
I feel like that was the biggest disappointment for a
lot of people, So I thought she was wasted.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I do see that now that you mention it because
thinking back on the last few seasons, everyone is like
they're all a less celebrities, like they were really really famous,
but they're like the same amount of famous.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah. So if you're right, if there's one person who's
way more famous than the others, you're like, oh, they're
going to do something crazy. Yeah, And I think I
see if you're a massive Black Pink fan, like you
would have been like, oh, she's the one who does
something right y, she just never does.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Would be she's going to be an interesting character and
date her bad boy moving on to the trio. That's
pretty much stole the show. So we have Leslie Bierbe
as Kate, Carrie Koon as Laurie, and Michelle Monaghan as
Jacqueline Lemon. No one actually says her full name. I
don't think much throughout the series, but she's like the
reality stuff. She's like a dramatic TV actress. Oh I thought, yeah, y,
(23:51):
not a reality TV start. I think that'd be a
whole different, a whole different show. What's interesting about this is,
at first, I think we were all very instantly taken
in by this dynamic, but the actresses themselves are really
worried that their storyline would get pushed aside and forgotten.
Like when I was into ing Leslie Bib, who plays Kate,
she was saying that that was their big fear because
she's like, our storyline is just this friendship dynamic and
(24:12):
how do we like honestly communicate together and all this
sort of stuff. And she's like, it's really beautiful, but
how is that going to compete with like shootouts and
murder in incest And the fact that it did I
think spoke to like how much we love to see
female friendship depicted on screen.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, And I think they had the extra challenge of
all three of them literally being super rich, beautiful white
women who.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Mike White call them the blonde blob because when they
were together, they all just walked together and merged as
one blonde blob.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And I think what they did was so well done
was like you could see each of them as individuals
as well as a collective, and I think they each
had really interesting individual storylines, and they all portrayed like
character chures of like every woman's biggest insecurities, because I
could see insecurities of mine in all three characters, like
(25:03):
not the Trump stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I was saying, do you want to share something.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
But other things? And I think them going to like
all three different extremes of like how a woman should
live her life and seeing how it can clash, especially
when you're at that age where exactly what Krrie Coon's
character like delivered that beautiful monologue in the last episode
that they grow together and then they grow apart and
then they come back together. And I think that never
(25:28):
gets spoken about when it comes to friendships, and they
portrayed that so well.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, exactly, it was this dynamic. It's so perfectly captured
how so many friendships are, which is a reason that
I felt quite out of step with a lot of
people watching this season because from the moment you saw
these women on screen, particularly in the first episode where
Laurie is the first one to leave because she's tanked
a whole ball of wine, relatable. Yeah, and then they're
kind of like talking about each other and they're talking
(25:54):
about her and they keep saying she's so great, she's
so wonderful, but like, do you much do you think
this has happened? All that sort of stuff, and she
can see them gossiping.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Almost became an eye roll for the audience, right, they're like, Oh,
it's these friends who are just pretending to be friends,
but they actually see it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Exactly and all of a sudden, like the online comment
Harry around that, and also from people who I talk
to in real life would be like, oh my god,
those three toxic women.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
They're the worst, Like, what.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
A terrible friendship. And as the season went on, I
started feeling really out of step and like a monster
because I'm.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Like, I don't think it's that bad.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well, I don't think they've done anything that bad. This
to me just seems like a normal kind of friendship,
especially people who've been together that long. I don't think
it was as toxic as people were saying.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, their friendship like lies in between. What I think
is like between sisters and close friends, and it's that
like scary in between limbo because with sisters, you can fight, yeah,
knowing that you'll always come back together because you always do.
But with those kind of friendships that you're so so close,
you're always scared of fighting because you don't have to
(26:54):
come back together. And it shows that when you have
lived your lives and have grown apart so easily, it's
almost easier to not come back together. Yeah, and I
think what happens is that you end up just like
bitching to each other, like when the other ones out
of the room. I think Holly wayn Wright wrote about
this really well, it's like you'll never bitch about the
third person to other people.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, it's specific you're going to keep within your friendship
circle because then you're talking to other friends who have
the same experience. So it's almost like again with your siblings,
like you can fight, but you wouldn't let anyone else
say something about them, And it's the same with your
friendship group. I think the other reason people thought this
was so toxic and crazy is that we've come to
look at female friendship in particular on screen in very
(27:36):
extreme ways. So for a long time we had, like,
you know, there was no female friendship on TV, and
a lot of us grew up with like teen shows
like A One Tree Hill and all that sort of stuff,
Dawson's Creek, all those kind of shows where there were
female characters, but they were always fighting. They were always
like fighting over a boy, like terrible things happening to
each other. They all had a guy best friend. We
just never really saw those moments, and then things kind
(27:59):
of flipped, and then we started really romanticizing friendship, especially
like millennial women, which obviously is incredible, but then it
was like every female friend I have is my soulmate
and we never fight and we talk every day and
everything's perfect, and you have these really idolized friendships. And
then this was just in between, which is probably what
most friendships are, where it's not this toxic nastiness, but
(28:20):
it's not this like we're together every day and everything's perfect,
and then people don't know how to handle that.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yeah, And it's also the risk that Laurie took of
like calling them out and putting everything on the table
and being super honest with how she feels, which I
found so confronting because I think it's quite scary to
be that honest with your close friends. Because when you
develop a friendship where you say that you're really really
close because you're always having a good time together and
(28:48):
you tell each other everything and you love each other,
it's like you feel like you can never ever be
a drain on them, Yeah, and sometimes like you need
to be a drain on them because they're your people.
And like Laurie said, like they're the only people that
she really has. And I can tell that these three
friends obviously they're now bonded over something that they've experienced
gramatically because they literally saw that guy gets shot. But
(29:10):
now they're all going to go back home and they're
going to be like, that was literally the most exhausting
holiday of my life. Yeah, they'll keep doing it over
and over again.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, I mean that's the dream. God, if anyone's gonna
come back for a new season, I'd love to see
those girls having like a makeup holiday. So much of
their scenes got cut as well, which I just know
is what happens when you have such a big cast
and such a big set and all those kind of things.
And like they actually shot all these scenes where they
go on a lot more to like their friendship dynamic
and their real life, so you hear more about Jacqueline's marriage,
more about Kate's family, and like also more about her
(29:40):
being like a Trump supporter and stuff, which a lot
of that stuff Mike White decided to pull because when
he started writing the show, the election hadn't happened yet,
so he thought it was going to be talking about
like a post Donald Trump world and he's like it's
a big intense now that he's the president again. But
also there was gonna be this whole storyline where Laurie
had a non binary child and that was going to
be like a big talking point with the women. So
(30:01):
those scenes were filmed but all cut. So it would
have been kind of interesting because sometimes they seem like
they've come back together and to the audience it could
seem jarring, but it's be those actual actors had filmed
these scenes of sharing this information, so.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Especially when there's so much like background acting, like you said,
of them just like staring at each other sometimes, Like
I wonder with the scenes, and I have read some
of the scenes that have been cut of like what
we're missing in.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Those stays exactly so. But I think overall, like incredibly
strong storyline and.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So good exactly best like depiction of friendship ever.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Exactly most realistic one. Alright, getting into everyone's favorite family
of the rat Lifts. So we have Jason Isaac are
Messy bestie as Timothy Ratliffe Parker Posey, who again, I
just freaking love that she's having this, Like I feel
like a new fandom has discovered her. Yeah, because again
she's been an actress for what like over thirty years
something like that. I remember just being obsessed with her,
(30:55):
josing the Pussycats Iconic but also the Blade Trinity, but
also I've Got Mail like everything.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And then like, did she just gave three? Scream three?
She's so good?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
She take a break from acting, and then I think
she's done, like she's dumb bits and pieces and I
think she took like an extended break or anything like that.
But she kind of just goes with the rules taste
in this role. And then the crazy messed up children,
Sam Navola as Lachlan Ratliffe, Sarah Catherine Hook as Piper Ratlift,
and Patrick Schwarzenegger our favorite new NEPO baby as Saxon.
(31:25):
What do you need to say about Saxon because I
feel like you were quite enamored by him this season
or we freaked out by him. I can't tell.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
I hate that Patrick Swartznegger, no, no, no, because he didn't
interview with us that he made me cry. He made
me so sad for him.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Oh really, he would be thrilled.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That actually made me cry, Like out of the last
episode when he was on the beach with Chelsea and
they were talking and then she sees Rick and runs
over to Rick and he looks back on her his face.
I don't know how he did that with his face,
Like he's actually a brilliant actor. Yeah, that like brought
me to tears.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Everyone was saying it was a similar moment that face
on the beach to you know, the end of season two,
Meghan Fay he is Daphne when Prince.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, when she's acting.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
There's a slight twitch of her face and with one twitch,
she realizes my husband had an affair with the woman
I now consider a close friend, and here's what I'm
going to do about it. It's like one second and
it's the same with Patrick Schwarzenegger and that scene.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It was absolutely brilliant, and I got a hint that
he was going to be really good this season when
Chelsea called him soulless. Yeah, in the first few episodes
and you can see like that look of his face.
I think he has the best character arc in the
whole season.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That is so interesting because coming into the role first.
So Patrick Schwarzenegger was one of the ones who as
soon as he saw White Luis, he said, I'll do it.
I'll do anything, and then the creators told him that
there was going to be an incest scene and they
didn't name names, but apparently there was quite a few
other big name actors in the mix of that role
who was going to audition, and when they heard about
the incest scenes, they pulled out and wouldn't do it,
(32:58):
and Patrick Schwarzenegger's like, put me in there. I'll do
anything pretty much, you know. We also the video of
him crying when he told his family got the role,
and he obviously comes from like a crazy prominent family
on both sides, but he really wanted this role, and
he said that he went in thinking that Saxon was
going to have this big come to Jesus character arc
and he was going to be a changed man. And
so for one of the scenes he went on and
(33:20):
played it like that as if he's a changed man,
and Mike White called cut and Mike White sounds like
the weirdest like and also most brilliant, but most cutting person.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Like you can read their minds.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
He walked around, He's like, what the hell was that.
He's like, don't do that. He's like, just so you know,
the show runs for a few months.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Someone told me that i'd cried.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
You cried on inside of the White Lotus right up crying. Okay,
that's why I didn't say that to you in the
pod records. But he's like, what are you doing? You
can't do that, And then Patrick Holtzenegger said, I tried
to explain, like, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
He's a change man.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I'm going to do this. I'm going to show this,
And Mike White was like, just remember this show was
on for a couple of months, but Saxon is at
this resort for a week, Like, he cannot change this much.
You got to pull it back. So it's interesting that
we're seeing the very pulled back version of him having
this epiphany.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Well that's the thing, Like you might not even see
it as an epiphany because like right at the end,
what I didn't like is that he didn't really get
to see him I guess mourn Chelsea's death because you
see him with her pretty much together for like three
days straight, and they become really close, and I feel
like she's taught him so many things to the point
where he starts reading, like to become reading.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
The biggest plot twist of all.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
But I also when I like sat down with that
thought that I had about how annoyed I was so
where he didn't mourn her death, I was like, maybe
he actually didn't really care, maybe because that's like if
we'd look at him from like I guess, like you said,
they've only been there for a week, for like three
days earlier, he wouldn't care at all.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
I think, Yeah, I think people have definitely romanticized that online.
They're like, he's a change man because he lost her,
And I was like, he just really wanted to have
sex with her because she didn't want to have sex
with him, And a lot of men like want you.
If they can't use you for like some sort of
like sexual desire, then like they kind of blank you
in their mind.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
So he literally told his brother like he was going
to take advantage of the girls when they got really
really drunk, and then it ended up happening to him.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I know, Okay, well let's talk about that, because I'm
just like, he's such an unlikable character, and that type
of man is like so unlikable, and it just also
feels so realistic. Interestingly, Amy Lee Wood was saying an
interview that every other cast shares something in common with
their character and that's why they were casts. Like she
shares like Chelsea's like optimism, and like she also loves
a good love story and she's a bit yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And she said.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
The only two people and the whole cast who are
nothing like their characters at all. Michelle Monaghan as Jacqueline,
she's like nothing like her. There's nothing to connect the two.
And Patrick Schwarzenegger as Saxon. And I was like, really,
because we thought that was just him being Yeah, his
mom had to come out and be like, he's not
like Saxon.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
And I kind of believe it now.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I mean, I don't think he's that bad, but I'm
sure there's just so good. Also on Neo Baby, he's
Emily Mornemer's son and he's currently dating Maud Apatow as
in Judd Apatow and Leslie Man's Yeah. So they're all
little and they're on set with Patrick rest of us.
I know, it's like NEFO Baby Central behind the scenes there,
but you know, we love these crazy kids. It's okay,
(36:10):
so yes, getting back on to Sexon before we get
to the rest of the family. But he's just there's
so much to say about him. I really felt sorry
for him too. I don't know why. There's just a
patheticness to him through the whole thing that you can't
help but feel sorry for him, even though he's like
the most privileged person there really because he's so unburdened
by any expectator like looking after a family anything like that,
like his dad is. But he's also so privileged and
(36:31):
just does what he wants. But you do end up
feeling sorry for him.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And he did non consentually have sex with he did get.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Sexually assaulted, which I feel like we all skimmed over. Yeah,
what did you think? That was so much build up
to that scene, So.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Much build up to that scene. I thought it was
going to be way more explicit than it was.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, the same, although it was enough.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So many people hated it, right, Yeah, I feel like
it was expected. I didn't think it was that big
of a deal. Ah.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah. Most people I talked to were just like so shocked,
and I was like, oh, we must watch some different
TV shows, cause I've seen way worse than this. It
was obviously super shocking because it's also one of like
this few you know, taboo things that like it doesn't
even feel fun to play with at all, Like it
just still feels taboo no matter what, and.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It really likes like one percent rich person's like we
don't have sex with us, so please, yeah, we don't
do that.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
But also I think because it was done this drug haze,
but I think it was. Yeah. I was trying to
think of like was it just there for like this
intense shock value and.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Kind of shock value was finding out that Lucky did
it purposefully and he wasn't as drunk.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, I mean, well yeah, exactly because he was told
he was a people pleaser and that's.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Why really said that I'm a people please like that's
not what we made Saxon's means, just like mortified.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, I just felt like I guess maybe I didn't
love it because it didn't feel like it was building
to anything. It just felt like a punishment for this
really unlikable character. Like it felt like a punishment for Saxon,
so it could be like hah, like we got him
and now he has to go off and like feel
bad about everything. But I didn't love that as a
plot device. It felt kind of empty.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, I feel like if they went in harder on it, Yeah,
no pun attended then it might have been more interesting,
but I feel like it had no real impact on
him wanting to change.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, but it also made him look just ashamed. But
I think it was almost like Chelsea rejecting him that
was his big change, Yeah, because when she was explaining
that she found him soulless and she found him all
these things, and not that he wanted to change to
be with her. He just wanted to continue tricking her
again so much in the Rightlift family story got cut,
and it's one of those things where like, obviously he
could have it.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
We didn't even find out exactly what happened with his work.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, I wonder if that was a Yeah, a lot
of people are angry because they wanted to see the
Rightliff family like reckon with what happened, and they wanted
to see the fall out of it. But I almost
think the way it ended of him just being like,
this is going to happen, and we're still going to
be a family, and all the kids have changed. Like
when you see that first shot of them coming over
on the boat in the first episode, Saxon's all like
(38:56):
swaggered and he's sitting up straight and he's like the
head of like where the kids are sitting, and then
Piper is sitting with headphones on, head down, like you know,
she's like there just for a spiritual reason. And on
the way back you can see she's very much just
accepted that she's exactly this family that she was so
against being part of. And then Lachlan's character is this
like meek, mild little brother on the way over and
(39:16):
then he's like sitting at the top of the line
and on the way back he's like kind of the
powerful one. But it's actually most of Piper's storyline that
got cut because she's supposed to when she comes back
and deside she doesn't want to live at the monastery.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
She decide, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So real. That's the most real for the storyline in
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
So like, could I really be eating that every day?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah, it's not organic? Again, relatable. She was meant to
come back to the resort, decides she was going to
lose her virginity because she was giving up this spirituality,
and she they filmed this that she was supposed to
have a sex scene with Zion, Belinda's son, and that's
when when you see her coming back into the room.
Later on her hairs all messed up and she's like
strutting around and they're meant to be like, this is
what happens when you lose your virginity become like a
(39:56):
power kind of woman. And still so that was all cut.
And she's also their scene when they're leaving the monastery
where Lachlan goes to her, like they're having that conversation,
she's like, I don't want to ruin my life and
she's like, this family so incestuous, and they cut this
bit but he's like, why what have you heard? So
she was meant to almost know what her brothers had done,
(40:18):
which also makes the end scene make a bit more sense.
But if the friendship group was the most honest depiction
of like a women's female friendship, then I felt this
was the most honest depiction of like generational wealth on
like a family that also sees themselves as like this
untouchable pillar of community.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Untouchable's ride just so silly with like how Timothy was
pretty much interviewing each members for family, asking if they
could live without money, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Like trying to kill him off in different ways, Yeah, exactly.
And also a lot of people were yeah, not loving
the fact that they have those drinks with the poison
fruit and then they don't get sick. But then Lachlan,
you know, makes the drink in a dirty blender, which
the vibe was like, if you make a drink and
a dirty blender, you deserve to die. Yeah, but also
very realistic for a teen boy who's probably never washed
a dish in his whole life.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
That's my one thing. I actually wish he died.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
M I guess, oh no, people are so upset, and
I was like, I actually don't care if he that
kid lives or dies.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Because I think it was I was like stuck on
what Chelsea says at the beginning where she's like, bad
things happen.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
In threes, and it felt like three people, yeah people,
three main p because three people did die.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I think more than three people. Yeah, but I wanted
three main people to die.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Interesting well, which leads us into the final scene. How
did you think about the ending with the deaths of
Rick and Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I actually thought it was a bit of a cheap death. Really,
what is that? I think? Especially Chelsea's like I think
you see Rick and you like think he's going to change,
and then he goes to that therapist for his stress
and he's like, I'm pretty much going to do something bad,
like I need to talk to you, which I think
was such a great look at like the privilege that
they all still have, Like they're all tortured in different ways,
(41:52):
but they all have that same privilege where you have
to help me right now.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, people don't blaming the therapist, and it's like, let's not
blame her for him shooting a man. That's that's crazy if.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
You're blaming her. And then he just ends up shooting
the guy. We find out he's his farder, which I
feel like we already.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, I think it was meant to be huge plot twist,
but then they hamn't at home so much it didn't
feel like a plot twist that maybe it wasn't meant
to I don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
And then just her dying like and you're just watching
him see the love that he could have had die,
and then the both of them dying together. I felt
like I've just seen that scene before so many times
that it didn't really hit me.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
It was like, what I thought was interesting is a
lot of people are sort of saying like we shouldn't
glamorize their love. Their love was toxic, and it's like, yeah, absolutely,
But that's the interesting part of it is you watch
these two people who were so unsuited so in this
like love story that shouldn't have worked, but they're caught
up in the like the mythology of their own romance.
And also at the end of the day, like he
(42:48):
just made that decision, as she said, like you can
pick the love you didn't have, or you can have
the love that's right here, and he went the other way,
which is just like human nature, and that's why he
lost her in the shootout, and he has this moment
where you know he's trying to save her, and it's
meant to show that he is not this like kind
of villainous person, even though he's just shot dead his
father without knowing. It's meant to give them like a
bit of redemption. And also I think it was meant
(43:09):
to be like tragically beautiful. I don't know if anyone
took it that way, but because when you see the
first episode, their deaths through Zion's eyes and he sees
these bodies floating, and it seems like it'll be really horrific,
and that you'll see these like bloody mess of people
floating in the water. But when we finally get to
the last episode and you see their bodies, it's almost
like they're lying peacefully and they're wrapped around each other,
(43:30):
like the year Smiling, the year. Yeah, they're wrapped together
like a loose depiction of the Ying and Yang singbol
to show that they're two opposites who have come together.
And because they pretty much die side by side in
the water together and their blood's mingling, it's meant to
show that Chelsea's prediction was correct, that they'll be together
forever in this life and the next. And so it's
almost like they give her a happy ending because she
(43:51):
got what she wanted, but no one wanted that.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I didn't even put that together. And I think when
Rick killed his father, I knew that Rick had to
die because the thing that the White Loatus does is
like someone always gets murdered, but then no one is
ever held accountable. Ye like that all of this like
esteem proved where they will never ever be like charge
or anything, and that's happened from all the seasons, and
(44:15):
that there was no way that Rick could live without.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Facing them exactly because you either have to have it
be like an accidental death or the person escapes like
Greg or like Rick there also killed in the shootout
of that idea, Yeah, it's almost like every season has
to finish and we can't have this idea that like
illegal proceedings happening afterwards and someone's being charged. It has
to come together in this final moment and that last
(44:38):
sing of them all in the boat going off together.
And I know there's been like a lot of criticism
over like why are so many of them smiling when
they just witness to death, But I think it's also
just showing, like I don't know, the three women were
hugging each other. I thought they were very much still
in like her.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
They were the post saw it exactly Harry running for
her life, like she likes.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Karacoons, so she's like, sorry, I'm a New Yorker, hat gunshots,
I run, I know what to do. But I thought
that was also just showing that these people who had
had this week in this crazy place at the end
of the day had changed a little bit, but not really.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
They never changed.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
They're all just sinking for like a week. They're all
the hero of their own story. They're all like on
the boat being like I've a changed person. I've come
back instead of not realizing what's happened. So look overall,
i'd say like a good season, my favorite, well again
not my favorite, but I still enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today.
The Spill is produced by ned Green with some production
by Scott's Stronik. And we'll be back here on your
podcast feed at three pm on Monday. Bye Bye, Lana.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on HI.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
It's Laura Brodneck here, host of our pop culture and
entertainment podcast The Spill, and this summer we're curating your
lowbrow playlist, bringing you our brutally honest reviews from the
top TV shows of the year, to the biggest movies
of twenty twenty five, and some of the classics that
shaped us. Every episode is giving you the Spills, completely
(00:39):
unfiltered and real takes. So your summer listening is sorted.
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
Mamma Mea podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
there is something for everyone. Just follow the link in
our show notes from Mamma Mia.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Welcome to The Spill, your daily pop culture fix. I'm
m Vernon and I'm Laura Brodney and god I love
these episodes. We are doing a brutally honest review of
this so if you're confused, this was this season's theme song. Yes,
(01:28):
we have talked about how it's a bit different to
the last two seasons. That's a huge feud about it,
and then you can read, so do that in your
own time, because we are doing a broadly honest review
of season three of The White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yes, and if you're new to our brudly honest review series,
then this is the episode where we deep dive on
the biggest movie or TV show that has just come
out this week. So there are going to be spoilers galore.
But also, if you've gotten to this point of the
week and you don't know how The White Lotus ends,
you must just be living in like a cave under
a mountain surrounded by cement, because there's no way, there's
(02:03):
no way to hide from that. But yes, we're gonna
be going deep on spoilers, behind the scenes, fact some
unpopular opinions on how the show ended and how the
characters worked, all that sort of stuff. We haven't discussed
anything yet, so each other's opinions are going to be
a surprise. So that's all we're getting into. But yeah,
so this season The White Lotus was set in Thailand.
There was almost like a bit of a bidding war
(02:24):
between a lot of countries of where the White Lotus
would be set because a lot of countries were scouted
for different sets and locations. Thailand sort of gave them
like quite a big tax break and also offered some
incentive through their tourism partners. Even with that, though, it
still ended up being the most expensive season of The
White Lotus yet interesting, which I find yet very interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Maybe next season we can do like White Lotus and
Barren Bay.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
That would be the most expensive season. Also, the orether
to be so expensive for the cast because Walter Goggins,
who plays Rick, was saying that he didn't realize how
expensive it would for him to be personally on The
White Lotus because they obviously fly you there to shoot
the show, and they pay for your hotel room because
you live in the hotel that you filled the show at.
But the cast have to pay for all their incidental
So at the end of like the first month of filming,
(03:10):
they all got their room bills and he was like, literally,
I'm losing money because he got too many like salted
cashews and things and didn't realize how expensive they were.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Funny, and they were all on the same salary and
they were all non negotiable salaries.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, exactly. That's what Mike White the creator sets up
when he made the White Loaders, is that every single
person has to audition and then they're all also paid
the same salary. And can you guess who had a
problem with that messy behind the scenes best friend Jason Isaacs.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I was like, Jason, out of everyone there, you're not
getting paid more. He thought, oh no.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
So if you missed yesterday's episode, we were talking about
some of the feuds that have happened behind the White
Loaders because we can't get into he would just he
would love to tell you everything that happened. So we
talked yesterday about how he was sort of talking about
feuds and making and he's been very messy behind the scenes.
But he was saying that he found it very strange
(04:07):
that he had to audition, because he said, look, I
don't want to have.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Not seen all eight Harry Potter films.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
That's pretty much what he said, because he said, look,
I don't want to get too big for my boots.
But really, Mike, I have to meet with a casting director.
I walked through Times Square and my face was on
like five billboards talking about Harry Potter days. Obviously, so anyway,
what's also the interesting thing about this third season of
The White Loatice is that Mike White has said the
first season was to highlight money and wealth. The second
(04:36):
season was to highlight sex and like the power it
can give and how it can shape relationships and money
and wealth. Yes, exactly, I mean that's just always a given.
And this third season was meant to be a kind
of a satirical look at a spirituality. But also how like,
especially like white Western people can go and like take
over Eastern religion, take the wrong message for her to
(04:56):
make it for themselves, which we particularly see with I
think the Rightliff family, but all of them to its extent.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, I really like that messaging. Because as I was
reading a lot of reviews on this and largely a
lot of people don't like this season. Personally, it was
my favorite season of all three. Yeah, three to two
one oh.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Mine's two one three oh.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So like the other girls, I hate you, this might
be a very unpopular opigon.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Okay, this is a safe space, only diehard spillers listen
to it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I was looking on socials, a lot of people were
quite vocal about how much they don't like this season,
And I think that's mainly because this season is so
reflective of a particular class in society that's also an
achievable class. And exactly what you said, Season one was
about money and wealth. That was a class that I
feel like was so unachievable. But this class of people
(05:48):
going to resorts in Thailand still so expensive. You still
have to have a certain amount of privilege to be
able to do that, but people can still do that.
And I think a lot of people who watched this
season could see some certain reflections of themselves and just
hated it.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
This is why I'm just going to say a lot
of white millennial women like me get really angry at
shows like Emily Power Rus or Sex and the City
or The Ball type because it's like it's too close
to the mirror, is too close to these women that
you hate, like it's me. I also just think on that,
just to touch on sort of like a lot of
people who didn't like this season or who thought it
was really anti climactic. A lot of the criticism was
(06:25):
anti climactic, too slow, and the finale was unsatisfying because
they thought it was too many loose threads. And I
thought a lot about that. Obviously, there were some storylines
that feel like they need more attention, or you know,
some areas where you think, oh, I feel like they
dropped the ball there. But I think overall, people are
just watching the show the wrong way at the moment
because they're watching it like it's this big murder mystery
(06:47):
with all these secret clues and every single scene has
something hid in the background. It all means to you
like everyone's watching it like they're a detective. But it's
not a murder mystery. It's a character study. And I
think with the first season, no one knew what to expect,
and this thing that was made during a pandemic and
the cast were locked away and it just came on
to our screens. We just watched it that way and
we were just so into all these different character dynamics.
(07:09):
And season two the mystery heated up a little bit.
But season three, everyone came in being like, I'm going
to solve the mystery in the first episode, and it's like,
it's not about that.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, and it's never a mystery, like you kind of
figure it out like as it's going. Yeah. The best
thing about when this series first came out is that
they did it so well with season one, where you
completely forget that someone's actually dead, like one of the
characters like someone's dead, and then because they stuck with
that theme for season two, it felt like it was
the ongoing thing that only everyone cared about. So after
(07:40):
every episode of season three, instead of what we were
doing for the last two seasons, where we were diving
in deep into each character and like what they wanted
and their flaws and their secrets, every single episode, we
were just like, Oh, I wonder if they're dead, like
if they're the person who's which.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Is really annoying, I agree, which I think also a
lot of people have just missed a lot of not everyone,
but maybe just people who were screaming the loudest online,
which is always the case. I guess people have missed
a lot more of the nuances and the character moments,
and also just the freedom that comes with having a
show where you can just let the characters go for
a little bit. I got to interview a few of
the cast when they're in Australia, and Leslie Bierb, who
plays Kate, who's one of the three blonde best friends,
(08:18):
was saying that on the first day of filming, because
they went to film first the women. They were just
racing through all of their pages and scenes trying to
like get it done, like we're doing this rarah. And
then Mike White had to come over and be like, okay, stop,
do it all again, because you guys are not like
you in your characters. You're not looking at the material properly.
He's like, it's about how you look at each other.
It's about like the silence. It's about like capturing one
(08:41):
of your faces in the background, and that's what we're
going to do. So they went back and refilmed everything
so good, the new ones of like how they're looking
or what they're not saying and all that sort of stuff.
And I think they were saying that happened with a
lot of the characters. It was about those slow, kind
of meandering moments. And also Mike White was writing a
lot of the scripts like just before they started filming,
(09:01):
like he's still moving things and you know, taking things
out and that sort of stuff. So if you're still
writing when you're about to film, it can't be that intricative,
you know, like the color of the curtains means this.
And also so much ended up on the cutting room floor,
like whole storylines, whole scenes, Like we're really only seeing
a snippet of the story. But you've got to go
with that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You have to go with that.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Okay. So now we've just got all that grievances out
of it, out of the way, getting onto a different
character group. So I think I've have to start with
the storyline that started in season one, and that is
Natasha Rothwell's character of Belinda Lindsay So. She was the
SPA manager from the White Loatus season one in Hawaii.
We saw her pop up again in Thailand. She's on
like a work exchange and it's kind of as like
(09:45):
she's living her best life as much as she can
because she's on a holiday. To an extent, we're also
getting all these different skills and she's having just a
lovely time until Greg John Greese, who has been in
every season the White Loaders so far.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Season I would.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Almost just love that if like every single White Loatus
because here's the big issue that everyone has with Greg. Now,
Gary hunt in the show's name every season, but he's
just great to Gary. I want to do more try
This is the issue people have with him. People aren't
that angry that he had Tanya Jennifer Coolidge's character killed.
They're angry that he's stupid enough to commit a murder
(10:25):
pretty much connected to a White Lotus and he had
his wife killed, who was one of the White Lotus's
highest tier returning members. And then he goes into hiding
while he's wanted for questioning in relation to her mysterious death,
and he hides out at another White Lotus like up
the Hill, but he goes down to the White Lotus
every night. That's a terrible hiding spot. But it also
(10:48):
is like the arrogance of like a rich white man.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I think it also shows that like every character in
the White Lotus is so unlikable, Like every single one
of them. It's like if they were a person in
real life, you know, you would absolutely hate that person.
And it also shows that with these people, which we
actually do see in Belinda's character as the season goes on,
is actually kind of rep greg in a way where
(11:11):
like once you get so much money, you just kind
of like turn into a person that you hated, Yeah,
and you just like kind of lose like all senses.
Like he doesn't think right he's just got so much
money that he doesn't need to think.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah exactly, yeah, you kind of forget that you're not
untouchable because of the money. Does feel like such a
big buffer, and like to an extent, it is. It's
interesting you brought that up about her changing her personality
almost because well, first of all, he also said that
he came up with season three when he was hospitalized
for bronchitis and he was on like a breathing machine
and he had like a fever dream because he was
on a lot of drugs, and he woke up the
(11:43):
next morning with the White Oatus season three plot in
his head. And sometimes that shows, oh, like all the
incestful moon stuff.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Every like tortured creative is like writing that down. Yeah, yeah,
go to hospital, go on breathing machine. But his reason
for bringing back Natasha rothwell as Belinda, is that he
got a lot of criticism for how her storyline ended
in season one and.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
People were like, oh my gosh, that poor woman, like
you know, she has no say she did this. You
treat her so badly. And his idea was that this character,
who he thought was like quite complex and layered, and
then Natasha Rothwell's portrayal of her was so good that
everyone was kind of just putting her into this like
character list woman of color who just lived to serve
this white woman and was like and once she was
(12:25):
like chastised and abandoned by her, her story was over
and she couldn't do anything, and she was like also
going to be this like moral compass, like she would
never do any or say anything wrong because she's like
this beacon of spirituality, whereas she's like everyone else, she's
just a normal character who's like really layered. So bringing
her back and having her make the decision to take
that huge amount of money and not turn this man
(12:46):
in for murder and probably a thousand other bad things
that he's done was showing that like money can corrupt anyone.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, I found that storyline very interesting because, like it
was a sad character in season one, but it also
I think spoke to the truth of exactly what those
workers would feel like getting glimmers of hope and then
just never having that follow through. And what I liked
about her character in season three was that it was
never like a white night moment where someone like saved
(13:13):
her out of that. I mean someone did technically, but
like she pushed herself to do it, and Tanya did
treat her really badly and like that kind of I
guess conflict within herself and whether to accept the money
or not. But I also thought the five million specifically
was so interesting because five million is a lot of money,
(13:34):
especially if it's a character like Belinda. It's a lot
of money, but it's not enough money to retire, yeah, yeah,
And it's also too much money to like find the
thing you want to do and be happy about it,
like you don't want to work, but you can't retire,
And it's that weird like limbo amount where I'm just like,
I don't know what she will do with that.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, I mean I hadn't thought about that, and that
tide of it that she can't retire. I'd be like, yeah,
I definitely retire in five million, not in Sydney, though,
I guess, Yeah, what's kind of interesting about that. As
much as I'm saying to people like here, like oh,
you guys thought she was this overly moral character and
all that sort of stuff, like I should just admit,
like so did I I was quite shocked in that
scene where she, you know, son Zion are sitting down
across from Greg and then negotiating, and when she gets
(14:17):
up and goes, we're not doing this, I was just
like I saw this coming, Like, this is a woman
of moral character, and she is gonna not just let
herself get corrupted. She's not letting her son that She's like,
it looks like she's raised him as a single mother,
be corrupted and she's not letting her son fall into this.
And she's getting them out of there and they're gonna leave.
And then I was like, oh my god, are you
gonna be allowed to leave? And then all of a
sudden plot twist, she was like, no, get more money
(14:39):
from him, like this is what we do with playing
good cop bad cop. And I thought that was it
almost played me like all those other people who had
just assumed she was kind of this like background character.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, and then you see it at the end of
like the Tides turning right, like exactly what Tanya did
to her. She did to Porcha like, yeah, said that
she wanted to start a business with him and like
move there and then they could like develop something. And
then she told him like, my circumstances have changed as
and like I've got a lot of money now, and
I think I can do this on my own or
(15:08):
do something else with it instead of like being here
with you. And then when she's like crying on the
boat as she's going home, you see those tears in
a different lens of like it's almost like a relief
cry for her. And then if it was the other
way around, people would be like, oh, that's such a
sad character. But I really want her to come back
in another season as like a like a Tanya essentially,
(15:31):
like a totally different and be the rich person. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I thought she was the least going to say to
him like thanks for the SAX. I know. I thought
they had a real connection. But money changes you. That's
what we learned, you know what me to go the
exact same, I'd also be getting a private boat out
of there and get I.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Love also four million on the private jet alone.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah exactly. Also, everyone keeps saying like why did all
these people like Greg and like we'll get to it later,
but Rick and all this sort of stuff, they just
all keep returning to the white lotus when they've done
the crime. It's like, get out of it. And it's
because they have this kind of privilege of like they
feel untouchable, whereas Belinda, who has lived as a woman
of color and also having to like look after these
rich people on her job for many years, has a
(16:10):
more realistic situation. She's like, we get the money, she'd
get out of here, We're leaving right now. Love that, Okay,
moving on to a different storyline. I guess what really
works well on the White loatus is that you have
all these rich guests and all their crazy storyline, but
then you always have some staff with the white loaders
who have like their storylines as well. And this season
real glimpse into staff life was with Mook and Guytok. Obviously,
(16:31):
with Mook, there was a lot of build up around
the performance because it was Lisa from Black Pink. I
know that's what her full name, but I just feel
like that's what we call her, right, Lisa from Black Pink.
She doesn't even need last name.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, she just goes by Lisa.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah. Well, I mean exactly, you can just say Lisa
and we know who she's so arguably Jason Isaacs the
most famous person in the cast.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
What I love about Mook's character, which is also very
similar to Fabian. Is that What White Lotus does really
well is that they introduce you to so many characters
and you have to pick in your head which ones
are going to be the ones that they run with storylines,
because like Mook and Fabian, they didn't have that big
of a storyline, but they were like such important inside characters.
(17:10):
I mean, Fabian just wanted to sing.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I pushed in the water at the end.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I was like, sleeve him alone so much, all that
build up of him being so anxious to sing. We
see him sing for like three seconds, then we go
straight to the women arguing with each other.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
It was so funny, fun Maybe he'll show up again,
I think as the new hotel manager.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
But Gaytalk also was such a brilliant character. I feel
like the first few episodes I saw Gaytalk, I was like,
because we knew someone was going to die by a
shooting because we see the shooting in the first episode.
And then after we introduced to Kaytalk, I was like,
oh God, if he's the security guard, they're all gonna die.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, what a sweet man. He just wants to take
Mook on a date. And why wouldn't you, Because as
Chelsea says, she's so pretty.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
She's stunning. What did you think of their relationship? Because
I feel like I was really rooting for them as
like a couple, and then it felt like she was
a bit insidious with him.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Because I feel like when they went to watch the
fight together and she was kind of like pushing him
to be this person that he didn't want to be. Yeah,
and we see at the end that he ends up
being that person, and it's hard to figure out whether
he became that person obviously. Like what I mean is
like when he shot Rick, he became that person. I
don't know if it was for him or to date
her essentially.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I mean I feel like a lot of it was
because he had this desire, like he's in love with
her and he has this desire to be with her,
and so he was happy to like change.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And she wasn't giving him the time of day for her.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah. Well that's why I was never like a super
into the romance because the way it's set up is
like I love them both as characters, but it was
never super set up to be invested in their love stories.
What I was thinking because when he first UKs are out,
it's almost like he's like, I know your brother and
I know your family, and he was kind of pushing
her to have lunch together, and you can see she
definitely just wants to be having lunch with her friends.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
She literally giggled and said, you're also funny. And then.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Well, this is like you've got to think of the
context again of us as sort of like inventing all
this stuff with these characters. It's like, this is her
brother's like older, maybe slightly weird or whatever, who's maybe
like a bit of a brother to her. All of
a sudden, he was like, no, come to lunch with me,
and like saying I want to take you on a date.
And it's this kind of weird thing of where she
sort of laughs and she's like, I get me. My
guess so. But you never feel like she's super into it.
(19:22):
She obviously cares about him, and I think a lot
of that is that they have this big shared history. Yeah,
but I just didn't want them to be endgame. But
maybe she was. Once he became like a burly, gunwielding
security guard, she was like, I'm into it.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
That's fine. Yeah. If there were one part of the
entire season that I felt like was underdeveloped. It was
the workers at the result, because I felt like Mike
White did such a great job at developing those characters,
especially the hotel managers from season one and season two,
who were these brilliant, strong characters who would always side
eye their guests because they were like, these guys are
(19:55):
so annoyingly privileged, and I felt like that opportunity was
missticks and maybe for the lady who.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Had to deal with the Rattler family. Oh my god, No,
she was incredible. So I interviewed her as well, because
she's a New Zealand actress, but she has been neighbors
and stuff in Austraya. We claim her as an Astorian actress.
And I interviewed her when I interview the other cast members,
and it's so interesting Morgana a Riley, because she was
telling me all these different things that she put into
her character and like some of them won't use, but
(20:20):
like when Chelsea and Rick first arrive off the boat
and she's saying to look like, oh, you're so pretty
if you look in the background, Morgana was telling me.
When I watched her back, I saw it. You can
see that like she's reacting to her she's like thinking
that Chelsea's calling her pretty well, and then all the
stuff are being like no, no, no, she doesn't mean you,
and like all this. So there's all these like plotlines. Yeah,
and like when she's moving the blender around in when
she's taking stuff over to the Ratliff family, she's making
(20:43):
faces behind them and.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
All this sort of stuff. And that's true.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
She's doing all this. So if you look back at
all the staff, they've all got their own storyline going
on the background. But unless you're looking for it, you'll
miss it, which I feel is maybe a missed opportunity because.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
It's never spoken. Yeah, I wish it was spoken because
her like facial expressions with the ratlier family, it's so good,
especially Jason ISAACX that's his name, Timothy Ratliffe, Especially Jason
isaactually placed Timothy every time he told her, no, I
need my phone versus take away all the phone, She's like,
what the hell? Yeah, and she essentially poisoned the sun
(21:16):
by giving him all that information.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I know. That was such a good stuf. I think
her best line when she's like good on you and
good on you at first, when Timothy Ratliff is saying
that his son Saxon works for him and all that
sort of build up just to finish up with Mukan
Guytok's storyline. Obviously. I mean they come out okay because
he gets the job he wants and she, you know,
seems to be she's with her bad boy. Yeah, she's
finally with a bad boy. We get it, We've all
(21:39):
been there. But did you think that having her in
that role was distracting? That's what some fans have said.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh, that's such a good question. I don't think it
was distracting. I know people who are huge Black Pink
fans and like K pop fans did find it distracting
because I think all they saw was like Lisa, Yeah,
and I do get it, But I feel like she
actually didn't have that big of a role for it
to be distracting.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
No, I know, but I think it was her casting.
So it's like, if we put like Taylor Swift in
that role, everyone's like, well, you don't get Taylor Swift
unless her role is going to be massive. And I
think a lot of people were saying, like, you don't
get Lisa unless that role is going to be massive.
So as the episodes went on, everyone was just like,
she's like the secret killer, She's got some sort of
a plot she's And when it came out that she
(22:26):
was the character, she was presented to us that she
wasn't hiding, she wasn't like a secret mastermind, she wasn't
ax serial killer anything like that. People felt kind of cheated.
And it's interesting because I was reading some interviews with
the producers and they were saying that they were really
worried to cast her for that reason, that they thought
it might be distracting, but they just went with it
because when she auditioned, she was really good, and she said,
like she's looking to change her career and this was
(22:48):
a new challenge, which I totally get. Like, even if
you're like one of the biggest pop stars in the world,
like she is, a starring role on The White Lotus
is a huge deal. So I kind of get it.
But I don't know. I just I guess I was
never thinking that she was this huge mastermind. I think
she was just there to be in the show. But
I feel like that was the biggest disappointment for a
lot of people, So I thought she was wasted.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I do see that now that you mention it because
thinking back on the last few seasons, everyone is like
they're all a less celebrities, like they were really really famous,
but they're like the same amount of famous.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah. So if you're right, if there's one person who's
way more famous than the others, you're like, oh, they're
going to do something crazy. Yeah, And I think I
see if you're a massive Black Pink fan, like you
would have been like, oh, she's the one who does
something right y, she just never does.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Would be she's going to be an interesting character and
date her bad boy moving on to the trio. That's
pretty much stole the show. So we have Leslie Bierbe
as Kate, Carrie Koon as Laurie, and Michelle Monaghan as
Jacqueline Lemon. No one actually says her full name. I
don't think much throughout the series, but she's like the
reality stuff. She's like a dramatic TV actress. Oh I thought, yeah, y,
(23:51):
not a reality TV start. I think that'd be a
whole different, a whole different show. What's interesting about this is,
at first, I think we were all very instantly taken
in by this dynamic, but the actresses themselves are really
worried that their storyline would get pushed aside and forgotten.
Like when I was into ing Leslie Bib, who plays Kate,
she was saying that that was their big fear because
she's like, our storyline is just this friendship dynamic and
(24:12):
how do we like honestly communicate together and all this
sort of stuff. And she's like, it's really beautiful, but
how is that going to compete with like shootouts and
murder in incest And the fact that it did I
think spoke to like how much we love to see
female friendship depicted on screen.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, And I think they had the extra challenge of
all three of them literally being super rich, beautiful white
women who.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Mike White call them the blonde blob because when they
were together, they all just walked together and merged as
one blonde blob.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And I think what they did was so well done
was like you could see each of them as individuals
as well as a collective, and I think they each
had really interesting individual storylines, and they all portrayed like
character chures of like every woman's biggest insecurities, because I
could see insecurities of mine in all three characters, like
(25:03):
not the Trump stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I was saying, do you want to share something.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
But other things? And I think them going to like
all three different extremes of like how a woman should
live her life and seeing how it can clash, especially
when you're at that age where exactly what Krrie Coon's
character like delivered that beautiful monologue in the last episode
that they grow together and then they grow apart and
then they come back together. And I think that never
(25:28):
gets spoken about when it comes to friendships, and they
portrayed that so well.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, exactly, it was this dynamic. It's so perfectly captured
how so many friendships are, which is a reason that
I felt quite out of step with a lot of
people watching this season because from the moment you saw
these women on screen, particularly in the first episode where
Laurie is the first one to leave because she's tanked
a whole ball of wine, relatable. Yeah, and then they're
kind of like talking about each other and they're talking
(25:54):
about her and they keep saying she's so great, she's
so wonderful, but like, do you much do you think
this has happened? All that sort of stuff, and she
can see them gossiping.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Almost became an eye roll for the audience, right, they're like, Oh,
it's these friends who are just pretending to be friends,
but they actually see it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Exactly and all of a sudden, like the online comment
Harry around that, and also from people who I talk
to in real life would be like, oh my god,
those three toxic women.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
They're the worst, Like, what.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
A terrible friendship. And as the season went on, I
started feeling really out of step and like a monster
because I'm.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Like, I don't think it's that bad.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well, I don't think they've done anything that bad. This
to me just seems like a normal kind of friendship,
especially people who've been together that long. I don't think
it was as toxic as people were saying.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, their friendship like lies in between. What I think
is like between sisters and close friends, and it's that
like scary in between limbo because with sisters, you can fight, yeah,
knowing that you'll always come back together because you always do.
But with those kind of friendships that you're so so close,
you're always scared of fighting because you don't have to
(26:54):
come back together. And it shows that when you have
lived your lives and have grown apart so easily, it's
almost easier to not come back together. Yeah, and I
think what happens is that you end up just like
bitching to each other, like when the other ones out
of the room. I think Holly wayn Wright wrote about
this really well, it's like you'll never bitch about the
third person to other people.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, it's specific you're going to keep within your friendship
circle because then you're talking to other friends who have
the same experience. So it's almost like again with your siblings,
like you can fight, but you wouldn't let anyone else
say something about them, And it's the same with your
friendship group. I think the other reason people thought this
was so toxic and crazy is that we've come to
look at female friendship in particular on screen in very
(27:36):
extreme ways. So for a long time we had, like,
you know, there was no female friendship on TV, and
a lot of us grew up with like teen shows
like A One Tree Hill and all that sort of stuff,
Dawson's Creek, all those kind of shows where there were
female characters, but they were always fighting. They were always
like fighting over a boy, like terrible things happening to
each other. They all had a guy best friend. We
just never really saw those moments, and then things kind
(27:59):
of flipped, and then we started really romanticizing friendship, especially
like millennial women, which obviously is incredible, but then it
was like every female friend I have is my soulmate
and we never fight and we talk every day and
everything's perfect, and you have these really idolized friendships. And
then this was just in between, which is probably what
most friendships are, where it's not this toxic nastiness, but
(28:20):
it's not this like we're together every day and everything's perfect,
and then people don't know how to handle that.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yeah, And it's also the risk that Laurie took of
like calling them out and putting everything on the table
and being super honest with how she feels, which I
found so confronting because I think it's quite scary to
be that honest with your close friends. Because when you
develop a friendship where you say that you're really really
close because you're always having a good time together and
(28:48):
you tell each other everything and you love each other,
it's like you feel like you can never ever be
a drain on them, Yeah, and sometimes like you need
to be a drain on them because they're your people.
And like Laurie said, like they're the only people that
she really has. And I can tell that these three
friends obviously they're now bonded over something that they've experienced
gramatically because they literally saw that guy gets shot. But
(29:10):
now they're all going to go back home and they're
going to be like, that was literally the most exhausting
holiday of my life. Yeah, they'll keep doing it over
and over again.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, I mean that's the dream. God, if anyone's gonna
come back for a new season, I'd love to see
those girls having like a makeup holiday. So much of
their scenes got cut as well, which I just know
is what happens when you have such a big cast
and such a big set and all those kind of things.
And like they actually shot all these scenes where they
go on a lot more to like their friendship dynamic
and their real life, so you hear more about Jacqueline's marriage,
more about Kate's family, and like also more about her
(29:40):
being like a Trump supporter and stuff, which a lot
of that stuff Mike White decided to pull because when
he started writing the show, the election hadn't happened yet,
so he thought it was going to be talking about
like a post Donald Trump world and he's like it's
a big intense now that he's the president again. But
also there was gonna be this whole storyline where Laurie
had a non binary child and that was going to
be like a big talking point with the women. So
(30:01):
those scenes were filmed but all cut. So it would
have been kind of interesting because sometimes they seem like
they've come back together and to the audience it could
seem jarring, but it's be those actual actors had filmed
these scenes of sharing this information, so.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Especially when there's so much like background acting, like you said,
of them just like staring at each other sometimes, Like
I wonder with the scenes, and I have read some
of the scenes that have been cut of like what
we're missing in.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Those stays exactly so. But I think overall, like incredibly
strong storyline and.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So good exactly best like depiction of friendship ever.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Exactly most realistic one. Alright, getting into everyone's favorite family
of the rat Lifts. So we have Jason Isaac are
Messy bestie as Timothy Ratliffe Parker Posey, who again, I
just freaking love that she's having this, Like I feel
like a new fandom has discovered her. Yeah, because again
she's been an actress for what like over thirty years
something like that. I remember just being obsessed with her,
(30:55):
josing the Pussycats Iconic but also the Blade Trinity, but
also I've Got Mail like everything.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And then like, did she just gave three? Scream three?
She's so good?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
She take a break from acting, and then I think
she's done, like she's dumb bits and pieces and I
think she took like an extended break or anything like that.
But she kind of just goes with the rules taste
in this role. And then the crazy messed up children,
Sam Navola as Lachlan Ratliffe, Sarah Catherine Hook as Piper Ratlift,
and Patrick Schwarzenegger our favorite new NEPO baby as Saxon.
(31:25):
What do you need to say about Saxon because I
feel like you were quite enamored by him this season
or we freaked out by him. I can't tell.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
I hate that Patrick Swartznegger, no, no, no, because he didn't
interview with us that he made me cry. He made
me so sad for him.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Oh really, he would be thrilled.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That actually made me cry, Like out of the last
episode when he was on the beach with Chelsea and
they were talking and then she sees Rick and runs
over to Rick and he looks back on her his face.
I don't know how he did that with his face,
Like he's actually a brilliant actor. Yeah, that like brought
me to tears.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Everyone was saying it was a similar moment that face
on the beach to you know, the end of season two,
Meghan Fay he is Daphne when Prince.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, when she's acting.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
There's a slight twitch of her face and with one twitch,
she realizes my husband had an affair with the woman
I now consider a close friend, and here's what I'm
going to do about it. It's like one second and
it's the same with Patrick Schwarzenegger and that scene.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It was absolutely brilliant, and I got a hint that
he was going to be really good this season when
Chelsea called him soulless. Yeah, in the first few episodes
and you can see like that look of his face.
I think he has the best character arc in the
whole season.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That is so interesting because coming into the role first.
So Patrick Schwarzenegger was one of the ones who as
soon as he saw White Luis, he said, I'll do it.
I'll do anything, and then the creators told him that
there was going to be an incest scene and they
didn't name names, but apparently there was quite a few
other big name actors in the mix of that role
who was going to audition, and when they heard about
the incest scenes, they pulled out and wouldn't do it,
(32:58):
and Patrick Schwarzenegger's like, put me in there. I'll do
anything pretty much, you know. We also the video of
him crying when he told his family got the role,
and he obviously comes from like a crazy prominent family
on both sides, but he really wanted this role, and
he said that he went in thinking that Saxon was
going to have this big come to Jesus character arc
and he was going to be a changed man. And
so for one of the scenes he went on and
(33:20):
played it like that as if he's a changed man,
and Mike White called cut and Mike White sounds like
the weirdest like and also most brilliant, but most cutting person.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Like you can read their minds.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
He walked around, He's like, what the hell was that.
He's like, don't do that. He's like, just so you know,
the show runs for a few months.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Someone told me that i'd cried.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
You cried on inside of the White Lotus right up crying. Okay,
that's why I didn't say that to you in the
pod records. But he's like, what are you doing? You
can't do that, And then Patrick Holtzenegger said, I tried
to explain, like, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
He's a change man.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I'm going to do this. I'm going to show this,
And Mike White was like, just remember this show was
on for a couple of months, but Saxon is at
this resort for a week, Like, he cannot change this much.
You got to pull it back. So it's interesting that
we're seeing the very pulled back version of him having
this epiphany.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Well that's the thing, Like you might not even see
it as an epiphany because like right at the end,
what I didn't like is that he didn't really get
to see him I guess mourn Chelsea's death because you
see him with her pretty much together for like three
days straight, and they become really close, and I feel
like she's taught him so many things to the point
where he starts reading, like to become reading.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
The biggest plot twist of all.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
But I also when I like sat down with that
thought that I had about how annoyed I was so
where he didn't mourn her death, I was like, maybe
he actually didn't really care, maybe because that's like if
we'd look at him from like I guess, like you said,
they've only been there for a week, for like three
days earlier, he wouldn't care at all.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
I think, Yeah, I think people have definitely romanticized that online.
They're like, he's a change man because he lost her,
And I was like, he just really wanted to have
sex with her because she didn't want to have sex
with him, And a lot of men like want you.
If they can't use you for like some sort of
like sexual desire, then like they kind of blank you
in their mind.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
So he literally told his brother like he was going
to take advantage of the girls when they got really
really drunk, and then it ended up happening to him.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I know, Okay, well let's talk about that, because I'm
just like, he's such an unlikable character, and that type
of man is like so unlikable, and it just also
feels so realistic. Interestingly, Amy Lee Wood was saying an
interview that every other cast shares something in common with
their character and that's why they were casts. Like she
shares like Chelsea's like optimism, and like she also loves
a good love story and she's a bit yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And she said.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
The only two people and the whole cast who are
nothing like their characters at all. Michelle Monaghan as Jacqueline,
she's like nothing like her. There's nothing to connect the two.
And Patrick Schwarzenegger as Saxon. And I was like, really,
because we thought that was just him being Yeah, his
mom had to come out and be like, he's not
like Saxon.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
And I kind of believe it now.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I mean, I don't think he's that bad, but I'm
sure there's just so good. Also on Neo Baby, he's
Emily Mornemer's son and he's currently dating Maud Apatow as
in Judd Apatow and Leslie Man's Yeah. So they're all
little and they're on set with Patrick rest of us.
I know, it's like NEFO Baby Central behind the scenes there,
but you know, we love these crazy kids. It's okay,
(36:10):
so yes, getting back on to Sexon before we get
to the rest of the family. But he's just there's
so much to say about him. I really felt sorry
for him too. I don't know why. There's just a
patheticness to him through the whole thing that you can't
help but feel sorry for him, even though he's like
the most privileged person there really because he's so unburdened
by any expectator like looking after a family anything like that,
like his dad is. But he's also so privileged and
(36:31):
just does what he wants. But you do end up
feeling sorry for him.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And he did non consentually have sex with he did get.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Sexually assaulted, which I feel like we all skimmed over. Yeah,
what did you think? That was so much build up
to that scene, So.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Much build up to that scene. I thought it was
going to be way more explicit than it was.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, the same, although it was enough.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So many people hated it, right, Yeah, I feel like
it was expected. I didn't think it was that big
of a deal. Ah.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah. Most people I talked to were just like so shocked,
and I was like, oh, we must watch some different
TV shows, cause I've seen way worse than this. It
was obviously super shocking because it's also one of like
this few you know, taboo things that like it doesn't
even feel fun to play with at all, Like it
just still feels taboo no matter what, and.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It really likes like one percent rich person's like we
don't have sex with us, so please, yeah, we don't
do that.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
But also I think because it was done this drug haze,
but I think it was. Yeah. I was trying to
think of like was it just there for like this
intense shock value and.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Kind of shock value was finding out that Lucky did
it purposefully and he wasn't as drunk.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, I mean, well yeah, exactly because he was told
he was a people pleaser and that's.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Why really said that I'm a people please like that's
not what we made Saxon's means, just like mortified.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, I just felt like I guess maybe I didn't
love it because it didn't feel like it was building
to anything. It just felt like a punishment for this
really unlikable character. Like it felt like a punishment for Saxon,
so it could be like hah, like we got him
and now he has to go off and like feel
bad about everything. But I didn't love that as a
plot device. It felt kind of empty.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, I feel like if they went in harder on it, Yeah,
no pun attended then it might have been more interesting,
but I feel like it had no real impact on
him wanting to change.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, but it also made him look just ashamed. But
I think it was almost like Chelsea rejecting him that
was his big change, Yeah, because when she was explaining
that she found him soulless and she found him all
these things, and not that he wanted to change to
be with her. He just wanted to continue tricking her
again so much in the Rightlift family story got cut,
and it's one of those things where like, obviously he
could have it.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
We didn't even find out exactly what happened with his work.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, I wonder if that was a Yeah, a lot
of people are angry because they wanted to see the
Rightliff family like reckon with what happened, and they wanted
to see the fall out of it. But I almost
think the way it ended of him just being like,
this is going to happen, and we're still going to
be a family, and all the kids have changed. Like
when you see that first shot of them coming over
on the boat in the first episode, Saxon's all like
(38:56):
swaggered and he's sitting up straight and he's like the
head of like where the kids are sitting, and then
Piper is sitting with headphones on, head down, like you know,
she's like there just for a spiritual reason. And on
the way back you can see she's very much just
accepted that she's exactly this family that she was so
against being part of. And then Lachlan's character is this
like meek, mild little brother on the way over and
(39:16):
then he's like sitting at the top of the line
and on the way back he's like kind of the
powerful one. But it's actually most of Piper's storyline that
got cut because she's supposed to when she comes back
and deside she doesn't want to live at the monastery.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
She decide, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So real. That's the most real for the storyline in
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
So like, could I really be eating that every day?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah, it's not organic? Again, relatable. She was meant to
come back to the resort, decides she was going to
lose her virginity because she was giving up this spirituality,
and she they filmed this that she was supposed to
have a sex scene with Zion, Belinda's son, and that's
when when you see her coming back into the room.
Later on her hairs all messed up and she's like
strutting around and they're meant to be like, this is
what happens when you lose your virginity become like a
(39:56):
power kind of woman. And still so that was all cut.
And she's also their scene when they're leaving the monastery
where Lachlan goes to her, like they're having that conversation,
she's like, I don't want to ruin my life and
she's like, this family so incestuous, and they cut this
bit but he's like, why what have you heard? So
she was meant to almost know what her brothers had done,
(40:18):
which also makes the end scene make a bit more sense.
But if the friendship group was the most honest depiction
of like a women's female friendship, then I felt this
was the most honest depiction of like generational wealth on
like a family that also sees themselves as like this
untouchable pillar of community.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Untouchable's ride just so silly with like how Timothy was
pretty much interviewing each members for family, asking if they
could live without money, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Like trying to kill him off in different ways, Yeah, exactly.
And also a lot of people were yeah, not loving
the fact that they have those drinks with the poison
fruit and then they don't get sick. But then Lachlan,
you know, makes the drink in a dirty blender, which
the vibe was like, if you make a drink and
a dirty blender, you deserve to die. Yeah, but also
very realistic for a teen boy who's probably never washed
a dish in his whole life.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
That's my one thing. I actually wish he died.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
M I guess, oh no, people are so upset, and
I was like, I actually don't care if he that
kid lives or dies.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Because I think it was I was like stuck on
what Chelsea says at the beginning where she's like, bad
things happen.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
In threes, and it felt like three people, yeah people,
three main p because three people did die.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I think more than three people. Yeah, but I wanted
three main people to die.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Interesting well, which leads us into the final scene. How
did you think about the ending with the deaths of
Rick and Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I actually thought it was a bit of a cheap death. Really,
what is that? I think? Especially Chelsea's like I think
you see Rick and you like think he's going to change,
and then he goes to that therapist for his stress
and he's like, I'm pretty much going to do something bad,
like I need to talk to you, which I think
was such a great look at like the privilege that
they all still have, Like they're all tortured in different ways,
(41:52):
but they all have that same privilege where you have
to help me right now.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, people don't blaming the therapist, and it's like, let's not
blame her for him shooting a man. That's that's crazy if.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
You're blaming her. And then he just ends up shooting
the guy. We find out he's his farder, which I
feel like we already.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, I think it was meant to be huge plot twist,
but then they hamn't at home so much it didn't
feel like a plot twist that maybe it wasn't meant
to I don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
And then just her dying like and you're just watching
him see the love that he could have had die,
and then the both of them dying together. I felt
like I've just seen that scene before so many times
that it didn't really hit me.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
It was like, what I thought was interesting is a
lot of people are sort of saying like we shouldn't
glamorize their love. Their love was toxic, and it's like, yeah, absolutely,
But that's the interesting part of it is you watch
these two people who were so unsuited so in this
like love story that shouldn't have worked, but they're caught
up in the like the mythology of their own romance.
And also at the end of the day, like he
(42:48):
just made that decision, as she said, like you can
pick the love you didn't have, or you can have
the love that's right here, and he went the other way,
which is just like human nature, and that's why he
lost her in the shootout, and he has this moment
where you know he's trying to save her, and it's
meant to show that he is not this like kind
of villainous person, even though he's just shot dead his
father without knowing. It's meant to give them like a
bit of redemption. And also I think it was meant
(43:09):
to be like tragically beautiful. I don't know if anyone
took it that way, but because when you see the
first episode, their deaths through Zion's eyes and he sees
these bodies floating, and it seems like it'll be really horrific,
and that you'll see these like bloody mess of people
floating in the water. But when we finally get to
the last episode and you see their bodies, it's almost
like they're lying peacefully and they're wrapped around each other,
(43:30):
like the year Smiling, the year. Yeah, they're wrapped together
like a loose depiction of the Ying and Yang singbol
to show that they're two opposites who have come together.
And because they pretty much die side by side in
the water together and their blood's mingling, it's meant to
show that Chelsea's prediction was correct, that they'll be together
forever in this life and the next. And so it's
almost like they give her a happy ending because she
(43:51):
got what she wanted, but no one wanted that.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I didn't even put that together. And I think when
Rick killed his father, I knew that Rick had to
die because the thing that the White Loatus does is
like someone always gets murdered, but then no one is
ever held accountable. Ye like that all of this like
esteem proved where they will never ever be like charge
or anything, and that's happened from all the seasons, and
(44:15):
that there was no way that Rick could live without.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Facing them exactly because you either have to have it
be like an accidental death or the person escapes like
Greg or like Rick there also killed in the shootout
of that idea, Yeah, it's almost like every season has
to finish and we can't have this idea that like
illegal proceedings happening afterwards and someone's being charged. It has
to come together in this final moment and that last
(44:38):
sing of them all in the boat going off together.
And I know there's been like a lot of criticism
over like why are so many of them smiling when
they just witness to death, But I think it's also
just showing, like I don't know, the three women were
hugging each other. I thought they were very much still
in like her.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
They were the post saw it exactly Harry running for
her life, like she likes.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Karacoons, so she's like, sorry, I'm a New Yorker, hat gunshots,
I run, I know what to do. But I thought
that was also just showing that these people who had
had this week in this crazy place at the end
of the day had changed a little bit, but not really.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
They never changed.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
They're all just sinking for like a week. They're all
the hero of their own story. They're all like on
the boat being like I've a changed person. I've come
back instead of not realizing what's happened. So look overall,
i'd say like a good season, my favorite, well again
not my favorite, but I still enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today.
The Spill is produced by ned Green with some production
by Scott's Stronik. And we'll be back here on your
podcast feed at three pm on Monday. Bye Bye, Lana.
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