October 20, 2024 • 24 mins
August 20th, 1989: Kitty and José Menendez were shot dead in their own home while watching a James Bond movie.
We know the facts of how it happened, but how has Hollywood scripted this tragedy, and how does it compare to the real testimony from that night?
In this podcast, we’ve included small excerpts from the 1993 trial, courtesy of Court TV. If you’d like to view the entire trial, you can follow them here
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
If you're like me, you watched the new dramatization of
the court case that back in nineteen eighty nine had
the world talking, you'd.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Had all the signs of a mafia hit.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Hard copies on the inside track of this.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I have heard a very few murderous step.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Police speculated it was a professional hit.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It was long before Taylor Swift contemplated an album about
the year she was born. It was prime millennial year,
way before TikTok and Instagram, when sitting down to watch
TV together was a thing.
Speaker 5 (00:44):
But I think, to me, the scariest thing in food
is that expiration date on the milk. They really they
scarier with you know, do you ever have milk a
day after?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And that's exactly what's alleged to have happened. On August twenty,
nineteen eighty nine in Beverly Hills, Jose and Kiddy Menendez
were watching James Bond Who Loved Me when they were
shot and killed by their two sons, Lyle and Eric.
Speaker 6 (01:11):
Mister Bond, Yes, I'm sorry, he asked me to give
you up.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I watched the show. I thought it was great, but
I had a bunch of questions. It was never in
dispute that they murdered their parents. The question of why
they did it and if they had actually been abused
throughout their childhood felt like a large step from what
I saw on the show. My kids, who were gen
Zs weren't so sure. They felt the brothers had good
(01:49):
reason to kill their parents, and so did millions of
people on social media.
Speaker 7 (01:54):
Well, the new Ryan Murphy series completely destroyed.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It was a really mixed bag.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
These two guys are as guilty as house.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Social media erupted with hashtags like free the Menendez Brothers
going nuts. The producer of the Netflix show Ryan Murphy
started copying backlash from not only the general public who
are along for the hashtag ride.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
We please stop Ryan Murphy from making any more shows.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
But also the Menendez brothers themselves. They popped up to
criticize the show.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
The Minette's brothers have been disappointed in the representation.
Speaker 7 (02:27):
What do you say to their backlash?
Speaker 5 (02:29):
I have many things to say about that. I think
it's interesting that he's issued a statement without having seen
the show. It's really really hard if it's your life
to see your life up on screen. The thing that
I find interesting that he doesn't mention in his quote
is if you watch the show, I would say sixty
to sixty five percent of our show, in the scripts
and in the film form center around the abuse and
(02:49):
what they claim happened to them. But there were four
people involved in that. Two of them are dead. What
about the parents? We had an obligation to storytellers to
also try and put in their perspective based on our research,
which we did.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So that's exactly why I wanted to make a podcast
about it. I trold you Tube like the rest of us,
and really got into a really deep hole watching the
whole testimony of the brothers in court across two trials.
The first of those trials was in nineteen ninety three,
which lasted six months, the second which lasted about four months.
(03:25):
There's around fifteen hundred hours of courtroom proceedings, which is
a lot, so we tried to make it easier. We've
poured over that courtroom TV and then compared it to
the Murphy dramatization. So what we're going to try to
do in this podcast is give you a perspective from
the mini series and then from the actual court case.
It goes without saying we're not saying the allegations did
(03:47):
or did not happen, and we think it's worth presenting
both sides of the argument. A warning, of course, in
these episodes, child exploitation, abuse and adult themes are prevalent.
It's not meant for young years. Across the next six episodes,
(04:08):
we've got to look into the themes that most people
are talking about. What was the motive? Was it financial
gain or abuse? Was it premeditated or were Lyle and
Eric in imminent danger from their father? Were they acting
on the stand or were they genuinely remorseful. What are
(04:31):
the details of the abuse the post murder behavior. Was
it a spending spree or coping mechanism? And finally, are
they monsters or victims? Let's start with the nine to
one one call. This is from the police logs. Lyle
makes the call while Eric is allegedly upstairs.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
What the problem? What's the problem the problem? That's how
JO d me. What are they still there?
Speaker 9 (05:13):
The people.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
When they shot, not where they shot they were shot.
Speaker 8 (05:24):
We're gonna see what something like I don't want to
what happened? I kind of h share up the person
I was trying to get setting further I don't un
that's just fine. If the persons still there, what happened?
(05:47):
We haven't even your own what happened? Who shot boy?
They came home and fohn who shot? You know, if
they're still in the half the people that did the shooting?
Gall Okay, let me talk to Eric, who is the
(06:14):
person that was shot? Mom and dad? Right, Okay, hold
on a second. Okay, we're on away over there with
an ambulance. Yeah, I gotta go.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Do you recall hearing the nine to eleven tape that
was played? Yes, were you in the room with your
brother when he was calling the police?
Speaker 10 (06:42):
No?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Were you on the same floor of the house. No,
where were you when, to the best of your knowledge
your brother was calling the police.
Speaker 11 (06:54):
I believe I was in the den. I mean, I
don't know exactly at what point.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
He was on the phone the police.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I assume when he went upstairs.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
On the TV series, while I was watching, it looked
like they planned the cool I SATs again. They're in
the room and at one point Lyle holds the phone
up to the air so he can capture his brother,
screaming off Mike, screw it up.
Speaker 12 (07:13):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The question for me while watching the show, was is
that a dramatization of the call that happened or was
that what really happens?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And on that cheap you're crying?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yes, is that real?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
The other question this scene raised for me is was
it possible that Lyle and Eric were crying because they
were upset at the site of their dead parents or
were they fate crying to divert attention away from themselves.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And I wasn't trying to fake it, and I wasn't
trying to, you know, put on an act or anything
like that. You wanted to get away with it, right,
We really.
Speaker 11 (08:11):
Weren't thinking in those terms.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Only weren't thinking in terms of We were just basically
thinking that we'd shot our parents and that this was horrible.
And then, if you know, I just couldn't tell the
police that, and that I did not want to them
have to tell them why and explain everything about my family.
We knew that they could easily figure it out, and
(08:33):
you know, we don't know anything about how they investigate things,
and they might figure it out right away, but until
they did, they didn't want to volunteer it.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Throughout the podcast, you're going to hear excerpts from the
court case, which was recorded by Court TV and available
on YouTube. We've placed the link to their website and
the YouTube links of the show. Note if you'd like
to watch idio the testimony in full. We're using these
short clips to try and show the difference between what
we saw on the TV show and the recent documentary
(09:04):
and what we saw back in court. Now it's known
that Eric was an aspiring actor, which the prosecution brought
up in court. Their mum, Kitty was also an aspiring
child actress when she was a kid.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Then suddenly she had gotten pregnant, that she had not
wanted to get pregnant, that my dad had then forced
her well, gave her an ultimatum e that you leave
or you stay home with my son.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
We saw in the show that after they shot and
killed their parents, Eric and Lyle left the house. We
see them in the house shooting their parents, then walking
back out to the car. Lyle says, I'll finish off mum.
Is she's still alive. While Eric puts his gun in
the car and is walking back, hears a few more
(09:49):
muffled shots. After they pick up all of the empty
shotgun shells from the den floor, they quickly leave the
house with a new set of clothes. Then they go
to the movies to try and buy a ticket to
establish an alibi in the TV shows. They arrived at
the cinema at around ten. Are you having trouble hearing
(10:11):
me the ninety fifty screening of Batman?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, but it's ten forty now, I know, But that's
the one that we want to see.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Can you help me out here? But in real life
it was a little slower and more deliberate than that.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
We just burst through the doors and I started firing.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Was the room litt.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
No, the lights were out, and I just I remember
seeing I don't remember too well, but I remember seeing
shadow right off to the right and my brother over
to the left. He ran off into that direction, and
I started firing immediately in the direction of whoever was
(10:57):
standing right there.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Do you remember.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Firing a very close shot at your father.
Speaker 12 (11:08):
At what part of his body.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
From the side behind kind of I ended up there.
Speaker 9 (11:18):
I don't remember the.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Shot really, but I remember the picture.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
MM could see sort of behind my dad, really barely,
but could see somebody uh moving seemed like moving in
the direction of where my brother should be, and uh.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
So I reloaded.
Speaker 12 (11:47):
What did you do after you reloaded?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I ran around and shot my mom?
Speaker 7 (12:05):
Where did you shoot her?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
As three storm a shutter cloths.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
From those court statements, it's believed that they stayed in
the house for some time after they shot their parents
to make sure that no neighbors came by to check
out what all the noise was about. Remember, there were
fifteen gun shots in all. It was Eric who fired first,
although it seems Lyle was a better shot. It's believe
(12:32):
Jose was killed instantly and shot five times, and Kitty
was shot nine times, possibly ten. It's hard to know,
given the cartridges from the gun were taken and Kitty
was in such a mess from the shooting. They called
the police at eleven forty seven pm. This means Lyle
and Eric came to the house shot their parents left
(12:52):
to go to the movies for their alibi. They also
promised to meet two friends at a restaurant called The
Taste of La, but they never made it. They instead
went and buried their blooded clothes and went back to
the house to make that nine one one call. The
next door neighbor who was questioned in court in nineteen
ninety three. She said she heard the gunshots, but didn't
(13:13):
think there were gunshots at first.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
I had heard some sounds going off, and I thought
that there were Chinese firecrackers.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
Do you remember about what time it was?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Did you heard the noises?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
It was between ten and ten fifteen. There were I
would say about a half a dozen of these pops,
and then there was.
Speaker 9 (13:36):
A little lag Okay, by a lag in time, you
mean there was a period of time where there was
no copy noises.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Just a short period of time, and that's why I
had thought that they were Chinese firecrackers.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
Did your son want to call the police?
Speaker 12 (13:56):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And did you dissuade him from doing that?
Speaker 13 (14:00):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (14:01):
I wouldn't lest him.
Speaker 13 (14:02):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 12 (14:02):
I've nothing for it.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
That neighbor never called the police, but it did establish
a time of death. Between ten pm and when Lyle
and Eric made that nine to one one call at
eleven forty seven pm. That's almost two hours to shoot
your parents. Head to the cinema a few miles away
and establish an alibi, then drive to mulholland drive around
twenty to thirty minutes away to dump their blooded clothes,
(14:39):
and head back to the house to make that call.
They also took the time to call the two friends
they said they would meet. Perry and Tod were supposed
to meet for dinner by ten twenty pm. When Eric
and Lyle didn't arrive, Perry and Tod left a restaurant.
Lyle called Perry at about ten thirty five pm and
said they got lost on the way. They arranged to
(15:02):
meet later that night the cheesecake shop. Remember this is
all after Larla and Eric had shot their parents. It's
also important tonight that that night it was the maid's
night off. When police arrived, they were confronted with the scene.
Michael Butkiss was the first officer on the scene.
Speaker 12 (15:24):
And then exited the car with my partner and on
foot we approached the house. We stopped for a moment,
approximately a minute minute and a half went by when
I heard some screaming from the front of seven two hotel.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
At that time.
Speaker 12 (15:45):
Did you have a weapons on? No, not, not just yet.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Did you know what to expect when you got up.
Speaker 12 (15:56):
Well, receiving the call that they'd possibly been at shooting,
I didn't know exactly what to expect. And then two
individuals came running from the front door of that house.
Towards the curb where I was positioned, at which time
I told them I believe I had a weapon drying,
(16:17):
possibly telling them to get down on the ground, both
of them, at which time they both complied.
Speaker 13 (16:25):
Were either of the two defendants crying when you saw them,
Nothing that would say was real crying.
Speaker 12 (16:32):
In my opinion, it was very dark. Their faces were
a reddish color, but I don't recall it seeing what
I would say, real tear drops coming off their face
or anything.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
While all this was going on, the friend Lala called
earlier to meet at the cheesecake shop had turned up
at the Menandez house. As he arrived, he saw police cars.
Now we saw this scene in the TV show, although
at the time there was no context to who this
person was. Oh my goodness, it would seem that Perry
(17:14):
was an alibi for the night. Police recalled that about
an hour after the nine one to one police call,
both brothers were asked to go to the Beverly Hills
Police station to be interviewed. They weren't being charged, nor
were they at the time persons of interests. The brothers
first said they would drive themselves, but then an officer
ended up asking them to join him in the police car.
(17:36):
At about one twenty am, Lyla and Eric were interviewed
by Sergeant Thomas Edmonds. He was the first to question
the brothers at the police station in nineteen eighty nine.
Here he is in the nineteen ninety three court case.
Speaker 10 (17:51):
The defense were not suspects at that time. With me, oh, sure,
are you familiar with what is called the gunshot residue test?
Speaker 11 (17:59):
Yes, i am.
Speaker 10 (17:59):
Would you describe just generally what that means for the jury.
Speaker 11 (18:05):
If somebody fires a firearm, the primer which discharges around,
splatters on the hands, and there's a test where chemicals
are put on a swab, and this it can tell
if there's I think they're nitrates or in the If you.
Speaker 10 (18:27):
Had suspected the defendants of committing these killings, would you
have performed or had the gunshot residue test performed on
the defendants?
Speaker 11 (18:36):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (18:38):
What were some of the reasons why you did not
suspect the defendants at that time?
Speaker 11 (18:41):
So well, they had accounted for their whereabouts and it
was too early on to make any conclusions that who
might be a suspect.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Eric's interview was quite short. It established the alibi for
the movies. Eric had asked the officer, are they dead?
The officer applied yes. Then at one forty two it
was Lyle's turn. He mentioned the smoke in the room
and said that he went upstairs to call nine one
one pretty quick. The officer asked, why did you go
upstairs to make that call? Isn't there a phone downstairs?
(19:17):
He said Eric could run upstairs, so he went to
find him and then called the police from his mother's room.
It was at this time Lyle mentioned that it might
have been a hit from someone within his dad's business circle.
Eric and Lyle are interviewed separately. Their tennis coach, Mark
Heffernan was at the police station with them. He was
(19:38):
also interviewed, as was Perry, the guy who was supposed
to meet Erica Lyle at the cheesecake shop.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
And so the sequence was, first you interviewed Eric, correct,
thereafter you interviewed.
Speaker 11 (19:51):
Lyle Menanda Kill Sure, and would it.
Speaker 7 (19:54):
Be fair to say that you hadn't eliminated them or
anyone else's suspects.
Speaker 11 (19:58):
That's true.
Speaker 7 (19:59):
During the course of your interview with what with Eric Menandez,
you decided that he was very draft and quite emotional,
isn't that correct? Yes, sir, And you also formed the
impression as a result of talking to him that he
was obviously a lot of trauma, emotional trauma. Yes, he
he trauma. Correct. Yes, And the last thing on the tape,
(20:22):
at least from what we can hear, is Eric crime.
Is that correct?
Speaker 11 (20:26):
Yes, she was.
Speaker 7 (20:27):
After the tape went off, you spent a certain amount
of time consoling him and trying to make him stop crying.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Is that correct?
Speaker 11 (20:34):
Well, I didn't try to make him stop crying, but
I consoled him.
Speaker 7 (20:39):
Was there any discussion between the two brothers before the
interview with Lyle and Ed?
Speaker 11 (20:46):
Eric told Lyle that it was okay to talk to me,
that I was okay.
Speaker 7 (20:53):
He was also showing obvious signs to you that he
was traumatized.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Isn't that correct?
Speaker 11 (20:58):
At certain points, not all the way through the conversation.
Speaker 7 (21:04):
Would it be fair to say that the emotions you
were observing in regard to Lyle Menendez that night were
real emotions? And your answer, Yes, I think Lyle's emotions
were real. He was very crystal clear and precise. But
he was showing signs to me that he was traumatized,
and I think they were sincere. On the tape with
(21:26):
Lyle Menendez, there is mention of some problem with gangs
in Calabasas. To recall that part of the.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yes the tape, Eric in nineteen ninety eight, before they
moved to Beverly Hills was attacked by a gang in Calabasas.
It filled the media as well as the fact that
the mafia might have arranged the hit. Detective Zola was
the lead investigator on the case. He looked into the
inconsistencies with the brothers Alibis and the claims about the mafia.
(21:56):
The gang in calabass was there, in.
Speaker 7 (21:58):
Fact, a police report made concerning a problem that Eric
Menendez had with a group of gang me Calabasas.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I don't recall the lead detective didn't really believe the
mafia hit when he interviewed them in the house sin
September seventeen. There were possible theories which included the brothers
might be involved.
Speaker 7 (22:17):
And is it true that the media attention you were
referring to was the corner's theory that it was an
organized crime hit and there the speculation that was going
on in the media about that possibility.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I don't know whether that's what started it or not,
but I know the press took off with that idea.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
It had all the signs of a mafia hit. When
Beverly Hills police were called to the Menindez mentioned that
cool night.
Speaker 12 (22:42):
I've been in this business for over thirty three years,
and I've heard of very few murders that were more
savage than this.
Speaker 6 (22:48):
One.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Was no signs of a break in or a burglary.
Only the bodies of entertainment executive Jose Menendez and his
wife Kitty in the family TV room, torn by a
shotgun blast. But one of the neighbor kids heard.
Speaker 14 (23:06):
My name is Cliff Gardner. I'm a post conviction lawyer
in Berkeley, California. I was appointed to represent Loyle on
appeal back and I would say ninety six or ninety seven. Boy,
this is a question I get all the time, and
it's utterly puzzling to me. It's so different than what
(23:33):
it was back in ninety six, eight days before the
second trial started and before all the rulings started changing.
In the second trial, O. J.
Speaker 13 (23:43):
Simpson's applied Superior Court of California, County of Los Angeles
in a matter of the people of the State of
California versus oorenthal James Simpson, case number BA zero ninety seven,
with the jury and the involved in title action find
the dependent oorenthal James Simpson not guilty of a crime
of murder felony upon Nicole Brown Simpson, a human being,
as charged in count one of the Information I
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
If you're like me, you watched the new dramatization of
the court case that back in nineteen eighty nine had
the world talking, you'd.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Had all the signs of a mafia hit.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Hard copies on the inside track of this.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I have heard a very few murderous step.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Police speculated it was a professional hit.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It was long before Taylor Swift contemplated an album about
the year she was born. It was prime millennial year,
way before TikTok and Instagram, when sitting down to watch
TV together was a thing.
Speaker 5 (00:44):
But I think, to me, the scariest thing in food
is that expiration date on the milk. They really they
scarier with you know, do you ever have milk a
day after?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And that's exactly what's alleged to have happened. On August twenty,
nineteen eighty nine in Beverly Hills, Jose and Kiddy Menendez
were watching James Bond Who Loved Me when they were
shot and killed by their two sons, Lyle and Eric.
Speaker 6 (01:11):
Mister Bond, Yes, I'm sorry, he asked me to give
you up.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I watched the show. I thought it was great, but
I had a bunch of questions. It was never in
dispute that they murdered their parents. The question of why
they did it and if they had actually been abused
throughout their childhood felt like a large step from what
I saw on the show. My kids, who were gen
Zs weren't so sure. They felt the brothers had good
(01:49):
reason to kill their parents, and so did millions of
people on social media.
Speaker 7 (01:54):
Well, the new Ryan Murphy series completely destroyed.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It was a really mixed bag.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
These two guys are as guilty as house.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Social media erupted with hashtags like free the Menendez Brothers
going nuts. The producer of the Netflix show Ryan Murphy
started copying backlash from not only the general public who
are along for the hashtag ride.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
We please stop Ryan Murphy from making any more shows.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
But also the Menendez brothers themselves. They popped up to
criticize the show.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
The Minette's brothers have been disappointed in the representation.
Speaker 7 (02:27):
What do you say to their backlash?
Speaker 5 (02:29):
I have many things to say about that. I think
it's interesting that he's issued a statement without having seen
the show. It's really really hard if it's your life
to see your life up on screen. The thing that
I find interesting that he doesn't mention in his quote
is if you watch the show, I would say sixty
to sixty five percent of our show, in the scripts
and in the film form center around the abuse and
(02:49):
what they claim happened to them. But there were four
people involved in that. Two of them are dead. What
about the parents? We had an obligation to storytellers to
also try and put in their perspective based on our research,
which we did.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So that's exactly why I wanted to make a podcast
about it. I trold you Tube like the rest of us,
and really got into a really deep hole watching the
whole testimony of the brothers in court across two trials.
The first of those trials was in nineteen ninety three,
which lasted six months, the second which lasted about four months.
(03:25):
There's around fifteen hundred hours of courtroom proceedings, which is
a lot, so we tried to make it easier. We've
poured over that courtroom TV and then compared it to
the Murphy dramatization. So what we're going to try to
do in this podcast is give you a perspective from
the mini series and then from the actual court case.
It goes without saying we're not saying the allegations did
(03:47):
or did not happen, and we think it's worth presenting
both sides of the argument. A warning, of course, in
these episodes, child exploitation, abuse and adult themes are prevalent.
It's not meant for young years. Across the next six episodes,
(04:08):
we've got to look into the themes that most people
are talking about. What was the motive? Was it financial
gain or abuse? Was it premeditated or were Lyle and
Eric in imminent danger from their father? Were they acting
on the stand or were they genuinely remorseful. What are
(04:31):
the details of the abuse the post murder behavior. Was
it a spending spree or coping mechanism? And finally, are
they monsters or victims? Let's start with the nine to
one one call. This is from the police logs. Lyle
makes the call while Eric is allegedly upstairs.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
What the problem? What's the problem the problem? That's how
JO d me. What are they still there?
Speaker 9 (05:13):
The people.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
When they shot, not where they shot they were shot.
Speaker 8 (05:24):
We're gonna see what something like I don't want to
what happened? I kind of h share up the person
I was trying to get setting further I don't un
that's just fine. If the persons still there, what happened?
(05:47):
We haven't even your own what happened? Who shot boy?
They came home and fohn who shot? You know, if
they're still in the half the people that did the shooting?
Gall Okay, let me talk to Eric, who is the
(06:14):
person that was shot? Mom and dad? Right, Okay, hold
on a second. Okay, we're on away over there with
an ambulance. Yeah, I gotta go.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Do you recall hearing the nine to eleven tape that
was played? Yes, were you in the room with your
brother when he was calling the police?
Speaker 10 (06:42):
No?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Were you on the same floor of the house. No,
where were you when, to the best of your knowledge
your brother was calling the police.
Speaker 11 (06:54):
I believe I was in the den. I mean, I
don't know exactly at what point.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
He was on the phone the police.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I assume when he went upstairs.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
On the TV series, while I was watching, it looked
like they planned the cool I SATs again. They're in
the room and at one point Lyle holds the phone
up to the air so he can capture his brother,
screaming off Mike, screw it up.
Speaker 12 (07:13):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The question for me while watching the show, was is
that a dramatization of the call that happened or was
that what really happens?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And on that cheap you're crying?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yes, is that real?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
The other question this scene raised for me is was
it possible that Lyle and Eric were crying because they
were upset at the site of their dead parents or
were they fate crying to divert attention away from themselves.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And I wasn't trying to fake it, and I wasn't
trying to, you know, put on an act or anything
like that. You wanted to get away with it, right,
We really.
Speaker 11 (08:11):
Weren't thinking in those terms.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Only weren't thinking in terms of We were just basically
thinking that we'd shot our parents and that this was horrible.
And then, if you know, I just couldn't tell the
police that, and that I did not want to them
have to tell them why and explain everything about my family.
We knew that they could easily figure it out, and
(08:33):
you know, we don't know anything about how they investigate things,
and they might figure it out right away, but until
they did, they didn't want to volunteer it.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Throughout the podcast, you're going to hear excerpts from the
court case, which was recorded by Court TV and available
on YouTube. We've placed the link to their website and
the YouTube links of the show. Note if you'd like
to watch idio the testimony in full. We're using these
short clips to try and show the difference between what
we saw on the TV show and the recent documentary
(09:04):
and what we saw back in court. Now it's known
that Eric was an aspiring actor, which the prosecution brought
up in court. Their mum, Kitty was also an aspiring
child actress when she was a kid.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Then suddenly she had gotten pregnant, that she had not
wanted to get pregnant, that my dad had then forced
her well, gave her an ultimatum e that you leave
or you stay home with my son.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
We saw in the show that after they shot and
killed their parents, Eric and Lyle left the house. We
see them in the house shooting their parents, then walking
back out to the car. Lyle says, I'll finish off mum.
Is she's still alive. While Eric puts his gun in
the car and is walking back, hears a few more
(09:49):
muffled shots. After they pick up all of the empty
shotgun shells from the den floor, they quickly leave the
house with a new set of clothes. Then they go
to the movies to try and buy a ticket to
establish an alibi in the TV shows. They arrived at
the cinema at around ten. Are you having trouble hearing
(10:11):
me the ninety fifty screening of Batman?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, but it's ten forty now, I know, But that's
the one that we want to see.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Can you help me out here? But in real life
it was a little slower and more deliberate than that.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
We just burst through the doors and I started firing.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Was the room litt.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
No, the lights were out, and I just I remember
seeing I don't remember too well, but I remember seeing
shadow right off to the right and my brother over
to the left. He ran off into that direction, and
I started firing immediately in the direction of whoever was
(10:57):
standing right there.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Do you remember.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Firing a very close shot at your father.
Speaker 12 (11:08):
At what part of his body.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
From the side behind kind of I ended up there.
Speaker 9 (11:18):
I don't remember the.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Shot really, but I remember the picture.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
MM could see sort of behind my dad, really barely,
but could see somebody uh moving seemed like moving in
the direction of where my brother should be, and uh.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
So I reloaded.
Speaker 12 (11:47):
What did you do after you reloaded?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I ran around and shot my mom?
Speaker 7 (12:05):
Where did you shoot her?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
As three storm a shutter cloths.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
From those court statements, it's believed that they stayed in
the house for some time after they shot their parents
to make sure that no neighbors came by to check
out what all the noise was about. Remember, there were
fifteen gun shots in all. It was Eric who fired first,
although it seems Lyle was a better shot. It's believe
(12:32):
Jose was killed instantly and shot five times, and Kitty
was shot nine times, possibly ten. It's hard to know,
given the cartridges from the gun were taken and Kitty
was in such a mess from the shooting. They called
the police at eleven forty seven pm. This means Lyle
and Eric came to the house shot their parents left
(12:52):
to go to the movies for their alibi. They also
promised to meet two friends at a restaurant called The
Taste of La, but they never made it. They instead
went and buried their blooded clothes and went back to
the house to make that nine one one call. The
next door neighbor who was questioned in court in nineteen
ninety three. She said she heard the gunshots, but didn't
(13:13):
think there were gunshots at first.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
I had heard some sounds going off, and I thought
that there were Chinese firecrackers.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
Do you remember about what time it was?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Did you heard the noises?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
It was between ten and ten fifteen. There were I
would say about a half a dozen of these pops,
and then there was.
Speaker 9 (13:36):
A little lag Okay, by a lag in time, you
mean there was a period of time where there was
no copy noises.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Just a short period of time, and that's why I
had thought that they were Chinese firecrackers.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
Did your son want to call the police?
Speaker 12 (13:56):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And did you dissuade him from doing that?
Speaker 13 (14:00):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (14:01):
I wouldn't lest him.
Speaker 13 (14:02):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 12 (14:02):
I've nothing for it.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
That neighbor never called the police, but it did establish
a time of death. Between ten pm and when Lyle
and Eric made that nine to one one call at
eleven forty seven pm. That's almost two hours to shoot
your parents. Head to the cinema a few miles away
and establish an alibi, then drive to mulholland drive around
twenty to thirty minutes away to dump their blooded clothes,
(14:39):
and head back to the house to make that call.
They also took the time to call the two friends
they said they would meet. Perry and Tod were supposed
to meet for dinner by ten twenty pm. When Eric
and Lyle didn't arrive, Perry and Tod left a restaurant.
Lyle called Perry at about ten thirty five pm and
said they got lost on the way. They arranged to
(15:02):
meet later that night the cheesecake shop. Remember this is
all after Larla and Eric had shot their parents. It's
also important tonight that that night it was the maid's
night off. When police arrived, they were confronted with the scene.
Michael Butkiss was the first officer on the scene.
Speaker 12 (15:24):
And then exited the car with my partner and on
foot we approached the house. We stopped for a moment,
approximately a minute minute and a half went by when
I heard some screaming from the front of seven two hotel.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
At that time.
Speaker 12 (15:45):
Did you have a weapons on? No, not, not just yet.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Did you know what to expect when you got up.
Speaker 12 (15:56):
Well, receiving the call that they'd possibly been at shooting,
I didn't know exactly what to expect. And then two
individuals came running from the front door of that house.
Towards the curb where I was positioned, at which time
I told them I believe I had a weapon drying,
(16:17):
possibly telling them to get down on the ground, both
of them, at which time they both complied.
Speaker 13 (16:25):
Were either of the two defendants crying when you saw them,
Nothing that would say was real crying.
Speaker 12 (16:32):
In my opinion, it was very dark. Their faces were
a reddish color, but I don't recall it seeing what
I would say, real tear drops coming off their face
or anything.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
While all this was going on, the friend Lala called
earlier to meet at the cheesecake shop had turned up
at the Menandez house. As he arrived, he saw police cars.
Now we saw this scene in the TV show, although
at the time there was no context to who this
person was. Oh my goodness, it would seem that Perry
(17:14):
was an alibi for the night. Police recalled that about
an hour after the nine one to one police call,
both brothers were asked to go to the Beverly Hills
Police station to be interviewed. They weren't being charged, nor
were they at the time persons of interests. The brothers
first said they would drive themselves, but then an officer
ended up asking them to join him in the police car.
(17:36):
At about one twenty am, Lyla and Eric were interviewed
by Sergeant Thomas Edmonds. He was the first to question
the brothers at the police station in nineteen eighty nine.
Here he is in the nineteen ninety three court case.
Speaker 10 (17:51):
The defense were not suspects at that time. With me, oh, sure,
are you familiar with what is called the gunshot residue test?
Speaker 11 (17:59):
Yes, i am.
Speaker 10 (17:59):
Would you describe just generally what that means for the jury.
Speaker 11 (18:05):
If somebody fires a firearm, the primer which discharges around,
splatters on the hands, and there's a test where chemicals
are put on a swab, and this it can tell
if there's I think they're nitrates or in the If you.
Speaker 10 (18:27):
Had suspected the defendants of committing these killings, would you
have performed or had the gunshot residue test performed on
the defendants?
Speaker 11 (18:36):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (18:38):
What were some of the reasons why you did not
suspect the defendants at that time?
Speaker 11 (18:41):
So well, they had accounted for their whereabouts and it
was too early on to make any conclusions that who
might be a suspect.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Eric's interview was quite short. It established the alibi for
the movies. Eric had asked the officer, are they dead?
The officer applied yes. Then at one forty two it
was Lyle's turn. He mentioned the smoke in the room
and said that he went upstairs to call nine one
one pretty quick. The officer asked, why did you go
upstairs to make that call? Isn't there a phone downstairs?
(19:17):
He said Eric could run upstairs, so he went to
find him and then called the police from his mother's room.
It was at this time Lyle mentioned that it might
have been a hit from someone within his dad's business circle.
Eric and Lyle are interviewed separately. Their tennis coach, Mark
Heffernan was at the police station with them. He was
(19:38):
also interviewed, as was Perry, the guy who was supposed
to meet Erica Lyle at the cheesecake shop.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
And so the sequence was, first you interviewed Eric, correct,
thereafter you interviewed.
Speaker 11 (19:51):
Lyle Menanda Kill Sure, and would it.
Speaker 7 (19:54):
Be fair to say that you hadn't eliminated them or
anyone else's suspects.
Speaker 11 (19:58):
That's true.
Speaker 7 (19:59):
During the course of your interview with what with Eric Menandez,
you decided that he was very draft and quite emotional,
isn't that correct? Yes, sir, And you also formed the
impression as a result of talking to him that he
was obviously a lot of trauma, emotional trauma. Yes, he
he trauma. Correct. Yes, And the last thing on the tape,
(20:22):
at least from what we can hear, is Eric crime.
Is that correct?
Speaker 11 (20:26):
Yes, she was.
Speaker 7 (20:27):
After the tape went off, you spent a certain amount
of time consoling him and trying to make him stop crying.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Is that correct?
Speaker 11 (20:34):
Well, I didn't try to make him stop crying, but
I consoled him.
Speaker 7 (20:39):
Was there any discussion between the two brothers before the
interview with Lyle and Ed?
Speaker 11 (20:46):
Eric told Lyle that it was okay to talk to me,
that I was okay.
Speaker 7 (20:53):
He was also showing obvious signs to you that he
was traumatized.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Isn't that correct?
Speaker 11 (20:58):
At certain points, not all the way through the conversation.
Speaker 7 (21:04):
Would it be fair to say that the emotions you
were observing in regard to Lyle Menendez that night were
real emotions? And your answer, Yes, I think Lyle's emotions
were real. He was very crystal clear and precise. But
he was showing signs to me that he was traumatized,
and I think they were sincere. On the tape with
(21:26):
Lyle Menendez, there is mention of some problem with gangs
in Calabasas. To recall that part of the.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yes the tape, Eric in nineteen ninety eight, before they
moved to Beverly Hills was attacked by a gang in Calabasas.
It filled the media as well as the fact that
the mafia might have arranged the hit. Detective Zola was
the lead investigator on the case. He looked into the
inconsistencies with the brothers Alibis and the claims about the mafia.
(21:56):
The gang in calabass was there, in.
Speaker 7 (21:58):
Fact, a police report made concerning a problem that Eric
Menendez had with a group of gang me Calabasas.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I don't recall the lead detective didn't really believe the
mafia hit when he interviewed them in the house sin
September seventeen. There were possible theories which included the brothers
might be involved.
Speaker 7 (22:17):
And is it true that the media attention you were
referring to was the corner's theory that it was an
organized crime hit and there the speculation that was going
on in the media about that possibility.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I don't know whether that's what started it or not,
but I know the press took off with that idea.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
It had all the signs of a mafia hit. When
Beverly Hills police were called to the Menindez mentioned that
cool night.
Speaker 12 (22:42):
I've been in this business for over thirty three years,
and I've heard of very few murders that were more
savage than this.
Speaker 6 (22:48):
One.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Was no signs of a break in or a burglary.
Only the bodies of entertainment executive Jose Menendez and his
wife Kitty in the family TV room, torn by a
shotgun blast. But one of the neighbor kids heard.
Speaker 14 (23:06):
My name is Cliff Gardner. I'm a post conviction lawyer
in Berkeley, California. I was appointed to represent Loyle on
appeal back and I would say ninety six or ninety seven. Boy,
this is a question I get all the time, and
it's utterly puzzling to me. It's so different than what
(23:33):
it was back in ninety six, eight days before the
second trial started and before all the rulings started changing.
In the second trial, O. J.
Speaker 13 (23:43):
Simpson's applied Superior Court of California, County of Los Angeles
in a matter of the people of the State of
California versus oorenthal James Simpson, case number BA zero ninety seven,
with the jury and the involved in title action find
the dependent oorenthal James Simpson not guilty of a crime
of murder felony upon Nicole Brown Simpson, a human being,
as charged in count one of the Information I
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