October 20, 2024 • 23 mins
Content Warning: **This podcast discusses topics of child exploitation and alleged abuse. Listener discretion is advised.**
It’s the most asked question about the case: Were Lyle and Erik really abused, and who are the real monsters?
In this episode, we hear both sides of the story and ask the crucial question: Who are the real monsters—Lyle and Erik, or their parents, Kitty and José?
In this podcast, we’ve included small excerpts from the 1993 trial, courtesy of Court TV. If you’d like to view the entire trial, you can follow them here
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This is Menendez v. Monsters. It's a look at the
difference between what we saw in the recent streaming hit
and what actually played out in court. In the last episode,
you heard the court transcripts of a nine to one
one call and the timeline. We heard about the alibi
setups and the fact that there was a life insurance
policy that benefited Larla and Eric. But what about the will.
(00:33):
We heard about that in the opening statements from the fence.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
The boys believed they were out of the will. The
sons knew that their father's business was required to have
a five million dollar insurance policy on it, and they
knew that their father had not yet taken the physical
examination and was scheduled to take it within the next
few weeks. They did not know about the one insurance policy,
(01:01):
which was the only money that they ever received after
this law.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Friends from Princeton recalled in court that Laala told him
that he'd gone searching on his dad's computer for the will.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
One of them said Menendez. One of them said, list
I believe, and one of them said will, and that
he went out there to try and open the files
and read what was in them. He wanted to read
what was in the will, because he knew that his
father was drafting a new will and he wanted to
see if he could read what was in there.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
Did you tell you the result of his search.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Yes, they opened the files and found nothing legible inside.
They couldn't be opened, They couldn't be accessed for some reason,
and he told the computer expert that he had hired
just to erase the contents. Did he tell you why
he wanted the contents to raised?
Speaker 6 (01:52):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:53):
What did he say?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
He said, Well, my father wasn't very happy with me
at the time, and since the will that was found
gave me and my brother that everything, I had nothing
to lose by erasing this one. I'm not sure if
I would have been in it.
Speaker 7 (02:10):
When leilman and has told you about erasing the world,
did you see anything about the person who had done
the erasure?
Speaker 6 (02:16):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
He said that he had found a little Jewish guy
computer expert who we didn't think anybody would be able
to find.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
We saw on the TV show that there was a
safe which was taken from the mansion. It was locked
and couldn't be opened. The brothers took it to a
lawyer family friend who knew someone that could open the safe.
They did it, but it would need to be official
at the time. Lyle also asked the lawyer's wife if
she knew anyone that could crack into the parents' computer
to search for a will. The safe was opened by
(02:49):
a locksmith in the garage of the lawyer. Inside was jewelry, paperwork,
but there was no will. Carlos, the uncle, went with
Lyle the next day to check a safe deposit box
in the local bank. It was drilled open. Lyle was
the only one present. There was jewelry, more paperwork, but
again no will. So let's put some context around this.
(03:12):
Remember we're looking into the motive here. Was it about
financial gain or the abuse they suffered. The following facts
aren't disputed. Eric and Larles spent around seven hundred grand
in six months. They'd been told by their parents that
they were out of the will. They went looking for
the will, but it couldn't be found. A computer that
(03:34):
belonged to the parents was wiped. A document called will
couldn't be opened. The police found out that there might
be a second will. They found out about the supposed
second will from a story in a newspaper from an
anonymous source.
Speaker 8 (03:53):
And did the article itself indicate that your department was
investigating the possibility of a second will being arrased. Yes,
And as a result of that article being published, did
you feel it was important on that date to get
a search warrant for the Menandez home.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yes, this was the prosecution's case. The opening statement for
the defense made it really clear what their question was.
Speaker 9 (04:21):
The only question in this case is why did these
killings occur? There is no issue as to who killed
Jose and Mary Louise Menandez. Why they were killed is
what the focus of all of our evidence will be on.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
The defense tried to remind everyone that the case centered
around why they did it, not what they did, and
that's what we'll try to focus on here. I want
to remind you there were two trials for the Menendez brothers,
which to me wasn't clear in the TV show. The
first trial was in nineteen ninety three. In this trial,
the defense extensively presented evidence and witness testimonies about the
(05:00):
alleged abuse of the brothers by their dad. This was
central to their argument that they acted out of fear
for their lives, a concept known as imperfect self defense.
The second trial, which happened in nineteen ninety six, was different.
The defense wasn't able to call on any new defense
witnesses that tried to prove the alleged abuse. It was
(05:23):
due to significant limitations imposed by the presiding judge, Judge
Stanley Weisberg. These limitations restricted the admissibility and the scope
of evidence related to the brothers claims of long term sexual, physical,
and emotional abuse by their parents. It's been termed the
abuse excuse.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
So judge's rule that he will not allow the brothers
to call all of their family and friends as witnesses,
curtailing the defense's.
Speaker 10 (05:50):
Case and in fact where they didn't allow the jury
to hear mean it worse because the defense evidence that
was presented was so trivial. So we don't hear that
Leo when he was eight years old told Diane that
his father was touching his piners. We don't hear the
when he was twelve or thirteen voter and essay about
her father put on Deatho from Lastie's child. What we
do here is that his father didn't put a band
(06:11):
aid on his knee. The prosecutor was able to stand
up in closing and say you've heard no evidence of
sexual abuse, and the prosecutor was right, but only because
he had excluded the evidence.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
In a later episode, we're going to talk with Cliff Gardner.
He's been Law's appellate lawyer since the trial in nineteen
ninety six. We'll ask Cliff about what wasn't allowed in
the second trill, But for now, let's get to the
evidence that was presented by the defense in the first
trial about the abuse. Let's start with the defense claims.
Speaker 9 (06:48):
Are witnesses who are family members, teachers, coaches, friends of
the parents', friends of the sons, business associates of Jose
menendezapists who treated Mary Louise Menendez, and Eric Menendez himself.
(07:10):
Will paint a portrait of Jose and Mary Louise Menendez
as parents that will make understandable to you how they
could have died at the hands of their children. Our
expert witnesses, we believe are among the most highly credentialed
(07:34):
professionals in the areas of research into child abuse. These
are people, some of whom have never testified for the
defense in a case before. They have been prosecution.
Speaker 7 (07:52):
Witnesses for twelve years.
Speaker 9 (07:58):
Between the ages of six and eighteen, My client, Eric
Menndez was set truly molested by his father. Many witnesses
will tell you that this was a man who enjoyed
to an extraordinary degree asserting his power over those weaker
(08:22):
than himself, especially his boys. And as Eric wondered as
a child, you may also wonder what of that other
adult who was to love and care for him.
Speaker 7 (08:41):
What of his mother?
Speaker 9 (08:43):
While these violations by dad are occurring over the months
and years of this boy's childhood. Three days before she died,
Mary Louise Menendez admitted to her son that she knew
all along of his father's.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Molested Donovan Goodrow was a friend of Lamanendez. He worked
at TGI Fridays. They met through his girlfriend and they
(09:22):
later went on to be roommates. Donovan appeared in court
in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Do you see Lamanandez in court today?
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I did.
Speaker 7 (09:30):
What color clothing as we were today that you can see.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Donovan also was part of the book that was published
by Robert Rand that wrote about the Menendez murders. The
book was used as a research tool in the current
Netflix special and Robert was responsible for making sure that
the betrayal was accurate, and the complexity of the case
was represented. Rob had interviewed Donovan back in the early
nineties about the allegations that Lyla and Eric were abused
(09:57):
by their dads.
Speaker 11 (09:57):
And we had had a dinner at a Chinese sead
restaurant lad at night.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Did you reveal something about your own background of a
personal nature to Lyle And did he, in response to that,
reveal something to you about his and his brother's background?
Speaker 6 (10:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Did he ever tell you that he and his brother
had been molested by their father?
Speaker 6 (10:25):
No?
Speaker 12 (10:25):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Have you ever told me that.
Speaker 7 (10:32):
I can't recall that I have.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Have you ever told anyone else that.
Speaker 7 (10:38):
I can't recall that I have.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
You don't remember whether you've ever told me or anyone
else that Lyle Menendez told you that he and his
brother were molested by their father in a Chinese restaurant.
Speaker 10 (10:51):
I told him I.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Was blessed as a child. He never told me he was.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
He never said anything to you of that nature. No,
And you have never told anybody that he said anything
of that nature. Is that true or not true?
Speaker 12 (11:04):
It's true that I don't I never told anybody that
I said that.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
The next day, he was called back to the stand
to answer more questions. The argument here is that on
the stand, Donovan claimed that Laal had never told him
that he was molested, although in a taped interview with
Robert Rand in March nineteen ninety two, he told him
the whole story.
Speaker 12 (11:26):
The person you know something isn't going to defend himself.
The reason he told me that he didn't tell me
a lot of things about you, A lot of stuff
that but if I but I always thought he was
doing it to lure me in who may be believing
he is objective, you know, but he never told me
why you were doing it? Did make them feel afterwards,
(11:50):
you know what, He told me a lot about their past,
and you know it was similar to my past.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
I was.
Speaker 12 (11:58):
And I told him I get that. It was the
game he told me, and I was like, wow, Wow,
and his brother were molested.
Speaker 7 (12:05):
So you still have no memory of that conversation with
mister Rand.
Speaker 13 (12:08):
No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Are you saying that that conversation never took place.
Speaker 12 (12:12):
No, it obviously took place.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I just don't remember the conversation.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
You recognize your voice, Yes, it is that is your voice.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yes, it is more evidence also came forward through Robert Rand.
It was a letter written nine months before the murders.
We've used an ali clone of Eric's voice to read
the letter, which was said to his cousin. This letter
never appeared at either trial or in any evidence during
the hearing in the ninety nineties.
Speaker 14 (12:40):
It's still happening, Andy, but it's worse for me now.
I never know when it's going to happen, and it's
driving me crazy. Every night I stay up thinking he
might come in. I need to put it out of
my mind. He is so overweight that I can't stand
to see him. I never know when it's going to happen,
and it's driving me crazy. I've been trying to avoid Dad.
(13:03):
It's still happening, Andy, but it's worse for me now.
Every night I stay up thinking he might come in.
I'm afraid he's crazy. He's warned me a hundred times
about telling anyone, especially.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Lyle the cousin, and he was called into court to testify.
Speaker 6 (13:24):
Let me ask you this.
Speaker 9 (13:25):
He asked you whether your father gave you massages?
Speaker 15 (13:28):
That's right, did you? You said he was trying to
find out if it was normal?
Speaker 9 (13:33):
Was there something else?
Speaker 15 (13:34):
He told you about the massages.
Speaker 11 (13:37):
Well, he told me his father was massaging his dick.
He used that word, Yes, he did. At that point,
we were both trying to figure out whether what was
happening to him was normal. He wanted to know that
if this happened to every kid with a father and
son relationship, and I couldn't help him. I didn't have
(13:59):
a father around.
Speaker 15 (14:00):
So you said, I don't know, my dad's not here.
Speaker 13 (14:03):
That's right.
Speaker 9 (14:05):
And what did he say to you when you suggested
asking your mother?
Speaker 11 (14:14):
She told me never to reveal it to anybody, to
promise him that I would keep it a secret between us.
It was very clear that he wanted to keep it
as a secret between us, and that I was never
going to reveal that to anybody, and I had promised him.
Speaker 12 (14:32):
I had sworn to him that I wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
This secret went to the grave with Eric in law's
cousin Andy, who died in two thousand and three.
Speaker 15 (14:42):
Were you familiar with a nickname that your cousin Eric
used to refer to himself at about this same time, Yes,
I did, And what was that nickname?
Speaker 6 (14:53):
It was hert man.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Diane was Kitty's sister. She testified about what she saw
in the house in nineteen ninety two and nineteen ninety two,
three years before the murder.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
It was understood that when Jose was speaking to Lyle
or either the boys, that they were to be left
alone and you didn't intrude.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
The defense also presented photos of Lyle naked as a
small child. The photos didn't include the face of Lyle,
just the body and in particular the lower part. The
defense alleged that Kitty had saved these photos as a memento.
Speaker 9 (15:31):
This is the one of Lyle's nakedness which was saved
by his mother, kept in that envelope.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
The prosecution argued that it was Eric who took the
naked photo of Lyle due to the angle of the photo.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
But frankly, there is absolute, hard proof that Eric Menandez
did not take this nasty picture of his brother. And
here's the proof.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
The proof.
Speaker 7 (15:58):
She is the proof. The sequence of the photographs. Here's
a gathering of people. Here is life in the bathtub.
One can assume the morning of the birthday party. And
here is Eric in bed. Now Eric is in bed
when this naked picture of Lyle is being taken. See
here's the next picture on the roll. Now, are we
(16:19):
supposed to believe that six year old.
Speaker 9 (16:21):
Ere got out of bed to go take a naked
picture of his brother and they got back into bed
so someone could take a picture of waking him up.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Almost as amazing as the fact that these pictures were
taken is that these pictures were saved. You will see
the envelope that they came in, and you will see
the negatives, and you will see the original small photos,
and you will see Kitty Menendez's handwriting that was on
the envelope these photos were in, which says Eric's birthday
November nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The defense also spoke with a doctor who had examined
Eric's medical records from me as before.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
Direct quote has heard posterior pharyx uvula and soft palate
seen emergency room Printston Medical Center could.
Speaker 12 (17:14):
Have because by child sexual abuse.
Speaker 16 (17:16):
In your comment, yes it could be.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
And what do you have any opinion as to what
type of child sexual abuse could have resulted in that
particular complaint?
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Oral copulation.
Speaker 13 (17:30):
My dad came in and told me to take off
my clothes and to kneel on the bed, and he
closed the blinds and he put this lat underneath the
door like he always did, and they told me to
bend over the footboard.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Lyle also testified about his father's alleged cruel behavior.
Speaker 13 (17:51):
He would stick things in me as he was giving
me oral sex, or at times he would just sit
on the bed with his legs up spread and with
his back to the to the back of the bed.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Kitty's cousin told a TV show that she lived with
the Menandez family every year.
Speaker 6 (18:08):
My bedroom was downstairs and there were two single beds,
and Lyle came downstairs one night, it was before bedtime,
and wanting to sleep in the other bed, and he
said that he was afraid that his dad was going
to come into his room, that he and his dad
(18:30):
had been touching each other down there. So I went
to get Kitty and I told her what was going on.
She didn't say anything. She just took them by the
arm and took them back upstairs and took them back
to his bedroom, and that was it.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Al Anderson, Kitty's nephew, also said the same.
Speaker 10 (18:48):
When I first want to stay with them, the two
boys and Jose would go into the master bedroom and
the door would close and I'm given that we're taking
the boys for a shower. Well, I found to be
kind of strange.
Speaker 8 (18:59):
I felt they're old enough to take their own baths
and their showers whatever they.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Were a night said that she attended a dinner party
at the Menendez home where Jose screened a movie.
Speaker 10 (19:10):
Jose told his.
Speaker 17 (19:11):
Guests she brought back a VHS tape from a trip
to Brazil and I have to show you guys this
because it's so unique. And so he puts it in
and I don't remember the name.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
You said.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
The film showed adults engaging at sex acts in front
of children.
Speaker 17 (19:30):
And we saw a few seconds of it, a few minutes,
and we made excuses. A lot of us stood up
and said we have to leave. We couldn't stand to see.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
It to watch, but Jose found this hysterically funny.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Although it's obvious in the dramatization that it would seem
Le and Eric were sexually abused by their dad, it
doesn't go into the graphic depiction of the abuse, and
this is where most of the contention about the show
is coming from people who either support the brothers online
or in person. On the other side, the show did
spend sometime on the allegations Lyle and Eric were in
(20:06):
some sort of relationship. This was because of the writings
of a journalist called Dominic Dunn.
Speaker 15 (20:12):
Now, ladies, I never repeat gossip, so listen carefully.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
That same journalist also made comment to another journalist in
the hallway of court after Lyle testified about the abuse.
Dunn said that he believed that Lyle was telling the truth.
You also might remember the band Menudo that Jose signed
in the Netflix special. It's reported that the boys were
(20:39):
not just selected for their talent, but once the boy
turned sixteen or rich puberty, they were replaced with the
younger talent. Some former members came forward later and reported
sexual abuse by Jose Menendez and other executives. One came
forward on a Spanish TV show after the murder, which
transcribed it into English. This is not his voice, but
(21:02):
these are his exact words our life.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
They was talking at Cardo and Menendez.
Speaker 14 (21:12):
Your momentum, and.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
They offered me a glass of wine. I was thirteen
years old. They didn't normally serve alcoholic beverages. Jose Menendez
told me drink this wine. It's a very expensive wine,
so finish it all. After I drank the wine, I
started to feel tired and heavy. I couldn't move anymore.
(21:39):
From that point on, everything looked blurry. Someone carried me,
Someone tried to push me, and I walked down a
very long hallway. I couldn't react because I had no
control over my body. They drugged me. After that, I
(22:03):
woke up in the hotel. I have no idea how
I got to the hotel, but when I went to
use the bathroom, I knew I was bleeding. I was
in terrible paying for a week. When I told them,
they said, don't worry, it will heal in a week.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
In the next episode of Menendez The Monsters, you.
Speaker 16 (22:39):
Know I can read. It's a three page letter, and
it's you know, it's a letter you might expect any
seventeen or eighteen year old to write to his cousin.
He's urging his younger cousin to do well in school
because college is coming up, and he talks a little
bit about mom. She says, I feel bad for her.
I don't know why she puts up with Dad's shit.
(23:00):
Here's what Eric writes, and this is what sent chills
down my spine when I first saw He says, so
now I'm stuck here alone. I've been trying to avoid Dad.
It's still happening Andy, but it's worse for me, and
I can't explain it. He's so overweight that I can't
stand to see it. I never know when it's going
to happen, and it's driving me crazy.
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This is Menendez v. Monsters. It's a look at the
difference between what we saw in the recent streaming hit
and what actually played out in court. In the last episode,
you heard the court transcripts of a nine to one
one call and the timeline. We heard about the alibi
setups and the fact that there was a life insurance
policy that benefited Larla and Eric. But what about the will.
(00:33):
We heard about that in the opening statements from the fence.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
The boys believed they were out of the will. The
sons knew that their father's business was required to have
a five million dollar insurance policy on it, and they
knew that their father had not yet taken the physical
examination and was scheduled to take it within the next
few weeks. They did not know about the one insurance policy,
(01:01):
which was the only money that they ever received after
this law.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Friends from Princeton recalled in court that Laala told him
that he'd gone searching on his dad's computer for the will.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
One of them said Menendez. One of them said, list
I believe, and one of them said will, and that
he went out there to try and open the files
and read what was in them. He wanted to read
what was in the will, because he knew that his
father was drafting a new will and he wanted to
see if he could read what was in there.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
Did you tell you the result of his search.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Yes, they opened the files and found nothing legible inside.
They couldn't be opened, They couldn't be accessed for some reason,
and he told the computer expert that he had hired
just to erase the contents. Did he tell you why
he wanted the contents to raised?
Speaker 6 (01:52):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:53):
What did he say?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
He said, Well, my father wasn't very happy with me
at the time, and since the will that was found
gave me and my brother that everything, I had nothing
to lose by erasing this one. I'm not sure if
I would have been in it.
Speaker 7 (02:10):
When leilman and has told you about erasing the world,
did you see anything about the person who had done
the erasure?
Speaker 6 (02:16):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
He said that he had found a little Jewish guy
computer expert who we didn't think anybody would be able
to find.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
We saw on the TV show that there was a
safe which was taken from the mansion. It was locked
and couldn't be opened. The brothers took it to a
lawyer family friend who knew someone that could open the safe.
They did it, but it would need to be official
at the time. Lyle also asked the lawyer's wife if
she knew anyone that could crack into the parents' computer
to search for a will. The safe was opened by
(02:49):
a locksmith in the garage of the lawyer. Inside was jewelry, paperwork,
but there was no will. Carlos, the uncle, went with
Lyle the next day to check a safe deposit box
in the local bank. It was drilled open. Lyle was
the only one present. There was jewelry, more paperwork, but
again no will. So let's put some context around this.
(03:12):
Remember we're looking into the motive here. Was it about
financial gain or the abuse they suffered. The following facts
aren't disputed. Eric and Larles spent around seven hundred grand
in six months. They'd been told by their parents that
they were out of the will. They went looking for
the will, but it couldn't be found. A computer that
(03:34):
belonged to the parents was wiped. A document called will
couldn't be opened. The police found out that there might
be a second will. They found out about the supposed
second will from a story in a newspaper from an
anonymous source.
Speaker 8 (03:53):
And did the article itself indicate that your department was
investigating the possibility of a second will being arrased. Yes,
And as a result of that article being published, did
you feel it was important on that date to get
a search warrant for the Menandez home.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yes, this was the prosecution's case. The opening statement for
the defense made it really clear what their question was.
Speaker 9 (04:21):
The only question in this case is why did these
killings occur? There is no issue as to who killed
Jose and Mary Louise Menandez. Why they were killed is
what the focus of all of our evidence will be on.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
The defense tried to remind everyone that the case centered
around why they did it, not what they did, and
that's what we'll try to focus on here. I want
to remind you there were two trials for the Menendez brothers,
which to me wasn't clear in the TV show. The
first trial was in nineteen ninety three. In this trial,
the defense extensively presented evidence and witness testimonies about the
(05:00):
alleged abuse of the brothers by their dad. This was
central to their argument that they acted out of fear
for their lives, a concept known as imperfect self defense.
The second trial, which happened in nineteen ninety six, was different.
The defense wasn't able to call on any new defense
witnesses that tried to prove the alleged abuse. It was
(05:23):
due to significant limitations imposed by the presiding judge, Judge
Stanley Weisberg. These limitations restricted the admissibility and the scope
of evidence related to the brothers claims of long term sexual, physical,
and emotional abuse by their parents. It's been termed the
abuse excuse.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
So judge's rule that he will not allow the brothers
to call all of their family and friends as witnesses,
curtailing the defense's.
Speaker 10 (05:50):
Case and in fact where they didn't allow the jury
to hear mean it worse because the defense evidence that
was presented was so trivial. So we don't hear that
Leo when he was eight years old told Diane that
his father was touching his piners. We don't hear the
when he was twelve or thirteen voter and essay about
her father put on Deatho from Lastie's child. What we
do here is that his father didn't put a band
(06:11):
aid on his knee. The prosecutor was able to stand
up in closing and say you've heard no evidence of
sexual abuse, and the prosecutor was right, but only because
he had excluded the evidence.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
In a later episode, we're going to talk with Cliff Gardner.
He's been Law's appellate lawyer since the trial in nineteen
ninety six. We'll ask Cliff about what wasn't allowed in
the second trill, But for now, let's get to the
evidence that was presented by the defense in the first
trial about the abuse. Let's start with the defense claims.
Speaker 9 (06:48):
Are witnesses who are family members, teachers, coaches, friends of
the parents', friends of the sons, business associates of Jose
menendezapists who treated Mary Louise Menendez, and Eric Menendez himself.
(07:10):
Will paint a portrait of Jose and Mary Louise Menendez
as parents that will make understandable to you how they
could have died at the hands of their children. Our
expert witnesses, we believe are among the most highly credentialed
(07:34):
professionals in the areas of research into child abuse. These
are people, some of whom have never testified for the
defense in a case before. They have been prosecution.
Speaker 7 (07:52):
Witnesses for twelve years.
Speaker 9 (07:58):
Between the ages of six and eighteen, My client, Eric
Menndez was set truly molested by his father. Many witnesses
will tell you that this was a man who enjoyed
to an extraordinary degree asserting his power over those weaker
(08:22):
than himself, especially his boys. And as Eric wondered as
a child, you may also wonder what of that other
adult who was to love and care for him.
Speaker 7 (08:41):
What of his mother?
Speaker 9 (08:43):
While these violations by dad are occurring over the months
and years of this boy's childhood. Three days before she died,
Mary Louise Menendez admitted to her son that she knew
all along of his father's.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Molested Donovan Goodrow was a friend of Lamanendez. He worked
at TGI Fridays. They met through his girlfriend and they
(09:22):
later went on to be roommates. Donovan appeared in court
in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Do you see Lamanandez in court today?
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I did.
Speaker 7 (09:30):
What color clothing as we were today that you can see.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Donovan also was part of the book that was published
by Robert Rand that wrote about the Menendez murders. The
book was used as a research tool in the current
Netflix special and Robert was responsible for making sure that
the betrayal was accurate, and the complexity of the case
was represented. Rob had interviewed Donovan back in the early
nineties about the allegations that Lyla and Eric were abused
(09:57):
by their dads.
Speaker 11 (09:57):
And we had had a dinner at a Chinese sead
restaurant lad at night.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Did you reveal something about your own background of a
personal nature to Lyle And did he, in response to that,
reveal something to you about his and his brother's background?
Speaker 6 (10:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Did he ever tell you that he and his brother
had been molested by their father?
Speaker 6 (10:25):
No?
Speaker 12 (10:25):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Have you ever told me that.
Speaker 7 (10:32):
I can't recall that I have.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Have you ever told anyone else that.
Speaker 7 (10:38):
I can't recall that I have.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
You don't remember whether you've ever told me or anyone
else that Lyle Menendez told you that he and his
brother were molested by their father in a Chinese restaurant.
Speaker 10 (10:51):
I told him I.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Was blessed as a child. He never told me he was.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
He never said anything to you of that nature. No,
And you have never told anybody that he said anything
of that nature. Is that true or not true?
Speaker 12 (11:04):
It's true that I don't I never told anybody that
I said that.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
The next day, he was called back to the stand
to answer more questions. The argument here is that on
the stand, Donovan claimed that Laal had never told him
that he was molested, although in a taped interview with
Robert Rand in March nineteen ninety two, he told him
the whole story.
Speaker 12 (11:26):
The person you know something isn't going to defend himself.
The reason he told me that he didn't tell me
a lot of things about you, A lot of stuff
that but if I but I always thought he was
doing it to lure me in who may be believing
he is objective, you know, but he never told me
why you were doing it? Did make them feel afterwards,
(11:50):
you know what, He told me a lot about their past,
and you know it was similar to my past.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
I was.
Speaker 12 (11:58):
And I told him I get that. It was the
game he told me, and I was like, wow, Wow,
and his brother were molested.
Speaker 7 (12:05):
So you still have no memory of that conversation with
mister Rand.
Speaker 13 (12:08):
No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Are you saying that that conversation never took place.
Speaker 12 (12:12):
No, it obviously took place.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I just don't remember the conversation.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
You recognize your voice, Yes, it is that is your voice.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yes, it is more evidence also came forward through Robert Rand.
It was a letter written nine months before the murders.
We've used an ali clone of Eric's voice to read
the letter, which was said to his cousin. This letter
never appeared at either trial or in any evidence during
the hearing in the ninety nineties.
Speaker 14 (12:40):
It's still happening, Andy, but it's worse for me now.
I never know when it's going to happen, and it's
driving me crazy. Every night I stay up thinking he
might come in. I need to put it out of
my mind. He is so overweight that I can't stand
to see him. I never know when it's going to happen,
and it's driving me crazy. I've been trying to avoid Dad.
(13:03):
It's still happening, Andy, but it's worse for me now.
Every night I stay up thinking he might come in.
I'm afraid he's crazy. He's warned me a hundred times
about telling anyone, especially.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Lyle the cousin, and he was called into court to testify.
Speaker 6 (13:24):
Let me ask you this.
Speaker 9 (13:25):
He asked you whether your father gave you massages?
Speaker 15 (13:28):
That's right, did you? You said he was trying to
find out if it was normal?
Speaker 9 (13:33):
Was there something else?
Speaker 15 (13:34):
He told you about the massages.
Speaker 11 (13:37):
Well, he told me his father was massaging his dick.
He used that word, Yes, he did. At that point,
we were both trying to figure out whether what was
happening to him was normal. He wanted to know that
if this happened to every kid with a father and
son relationship, and I couldn't help him. I didn't have
(13:59):
a father around.
Speaker 15 (14:00):
So you said, I don't know, my dad's not here.
Speaker 13 (14:03):
That's right.
Speaker 9 (14:05):
And what did he say to you when you suggested
asking your mother?
Speaker 11 (14:14):
She told me never to reveal it to anybody, to
promise him that I would keep it a secret between us.
It was very clear that he wanted to keep it
as a secret between us, and that I was never
going to reveal that to anybody, and I had promised him.
Speaker 12 (14:32):
I had sworn to him that I wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
This secret went to the grave with Eric in law's
cousin Andy, who died in two thousand and three.
Speaker 15 (14:42):
Were you familiar with a nickname that your cousin Eric
used to refer to himself at about this same time, Yes,
I did, And what was that nickname?
Speaker 6 (14:53):
It was hert man.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Diane was Kitty's sister. She testified about what she saw
in the house in nineteen ninety two and nineteen ninety two,
three years before the murder.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
It was understood that when Jose was speaking to Lyle
or either the boys, that they were to be left
alone and you didn't intrude.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
The defense also presented photos of Lyle naked as a
small child. The photos didn't include the face of Lyle,
just the body and in particular the lower part. The
defense alleged that Kitty had saved these photos as a memento.
Speaker 9 (15:31):
This is the one of Lyle's nakedness which was saved
by his mother, kept in that envelope.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
The prosecution argued that it was Eric who took the
naked photo of Lyle due to the angle of the photo.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
But frankly, there is absolute, hard proof that Eric Menandez
did not take this nasty picture of his brother. And
here's the proof.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
The proof.
Speaker 7 (15:58):
She is the proof. The sequence of the photographs. Here's
a gathering of people. Here is life in the bathtub.
One can assume the morning of the birthday party. And
here is Eric in bed. Now Eric is in bed
when this naked picture of Lyle is being taken. See
here's the next picture on the roll. Now, are we
(16:19):
supposed to believe that six year old.
Speaker 9 (16:21):
Ere got out of bed to go take a naked
picture of his brother and they got back into bed
so someone could take a picture of waking him up.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Almost as amazing as the fact that these pictures were
taken is that these pictures were saved. You will see
the envelope that they came in, and you will see
the negatives, and you will see the original small photos,
and you will see Kitty Menendez's handwriting that was on
the envelope these photos were in, which says Eric's birthday
November nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The defense also spoke with a doctor who had examined
Eric's medical records from me as before.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
Direct quote has heard posterior pharyx uvula and soft palate
seen emergency room Printston Medical Center could.
Speaker 12 (17:14):
Have because by child sexual abuse.
Speaker 16 (17:16):
In your comment, yes it could be.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
And what do you have any opinion as to what
type of child sexual abuse could have resulted in that
particular complaint?
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Oral copulation.
Speaker 13 (17:30):
My dad came in and told me to take off
my clothes and to kneel on the bed, and he
closed the blinds and he put this lat underneath the
door like he always did, and they told me to
bend over the footboard.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Lyle also testified about his father's alleged cruel behavior.
Speaker 13 (17:51):
He would stick things in me as he was giving
me oral sex, or at times he would just sit
on the bed with his legs up spread and with
his back to the to the back of the bed.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Kitty's cousin told a TV show that she lived with
the Menandez family every year.
Speaker 6 (18:08):
My bedroom was downstairs and there were two single beds,
and Lyle came downstairs one night, it was before bedtime,
and wanting to sleep in the other bed, and he
said that he was afraid that his dad was going
to come into his room, that he and his dad
(18:30):
had been touching each other down there. So I went
to get Kitty and I told her what was going on.
She didn't say anything. She just took them by the
arm and took them back upstairs and took them back
to his bedroom, and that was it.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Al Anderson, Kitty's nephew, also said the same.
Speaker 10 (18:48):
When I first want to stay with them, the two
boys and Jose would go into the master bedroom and
the door would close and I'm given that we're taking
the boys for a shower. Well, I found to be
kind of strange.
Speaker 8 (18:59):
I felt they're old enough to take their own baths
and their showers whatever they.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Were a night said that she attended a dinner party
at the Menendez home where Jose screened a movie.
Speaker 10 (19:10):
Jose told his.
Speaker 17 (19:11):
Guests she brought back a VHS tape from a trip
to Brazil and I have to show you guys this
because it's so unique. And so he puts it in
and I don't remember the name.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
You said.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
The film showed adults engaging at sex acts in front
of children.
Speaker 17 (19:30):
And we saw a few seconds of it, a few minutes,
and we made excuses. A lot of us stood up
and said we have to leave. We couldn't stand to see.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
It to watch, but Jose found this hysterically funny.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Although it's obvious in the dramatization that it would seem
Le and Eric were sexually abused by their dad, it
doesn't go into the graphic depiction of the abuse, and
this is where most of the contention about the show
is coming from people who either support the brothers online
or in person. On the other side, the show did
spend sometime on the allegations Lyle and Eric were in
(20:06):
some sort of relationship. This was because of the writings
of a journalist called Dominic Dunn.
Speaker 15 (20:12):
Now, ladies, I never repeat gossip, so listen carefully.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
That same journalist also made comment to another journalist in
the hallway of court after Lyle testified about the abuse.
Dunn said that he believed that Lyle was telling the truth.
You also might remember the band Menudo that Jose signed
in the Netflix special. It's reported that the boys were
(20:39):
not just selected for their talent, but once the boy
turned sixteen or rich puberty, they were replaced with the
younger talent. Some former members came forward later and reported
sexual abuse by Jose Menendez and other executives. One came
forward on a Spanish TV show after the murder, which
transcribed it into English. This is not his voice, but
(21:02):
these are his exact words our life.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
They was talking at Cardo and Menendez.
Speaker 14 (21:12):
Your momentum, and.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
They offered me a glass of wine. I was thirteen
years old. They didn't normally serve alcoholic beverages. Jose Menendez
told me drink this wine. It's a very expensive wine,
so finish it all. After I drank the wine, I
started to feel tired and heavy. I couldn't move anymore.
(21:39):
From that point on, everything looked blurry. Someone carried me,
Someone tried to push me, and I walked down a
very long hallway. I couldn't react because I had no
control over my body. They drugged me. After that, I
(22:03):
woke up in the hotel. I have no idea how
I got to the hotel, but when I went to
use the bathroom, I knew I was bleeding. I was
in terrible paying for a week. When I told them,
they said, don't worry, it will heal in a week.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
In the next episode of Menendez The Monsters, you.
Speaker 16 (22:39):
Know I can read. It's a three page letter, and
it's you know, it's a letter you might expect any
seventeen or eighteen year old to write to his cousin.
He's urging his younger cousin to do well in school
because college is coming up, and he talks a little
bit about mom. She says, I feel bad for her.
I don't know why she puts up with Dad's shit.
(23:00):
Here's what Eric writes, and this is what sent chills
down my spine when I first saw He says, so
now I'm stuck here alone. I've been trying to avoid Dad.
It's still happening Andy, but it's worse for me, and
I can't explain it. He's so overweight that I can't
stand to see it. I never know when it's going
to happen, and it's driving me crazy.
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