Ep. 240 - Steph B

Bryan has a conversation with Stephen B. Walker about his new podcast, Reason 55, recently launched this Fall. Steph B has worked with California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA) and brings his experience to raise awareness of the impacts of the operations of the corrections system. 

(Originally aired 27October22)

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Episode Transcript

Bryan (00:08):
Thanks for listening today. We have a great guest who's
launching a new podcast. Stefan Walker is with us on
the podcast called Reason 55. When you have Stephon on,
because he's really focused on this podcast about on the
intersection of behavioral health and experience, the systems and policies
that impact lives across our state and across our country.

(00:28):
He's got a lot of great experience himself in this topic,
which we're going to talk about. But, Stephen, it's a
pleasure to have you on the show.

Steph B (00:35):
Hey, it's a pleasure to be back, Brian. Thank you.
I appreciate the opportunity.

Bryan (00:40):
Yeah, I think I think we actually did have that
many months ago talking about talking about prison reform issues.
So nice to have you on and talking about your show.
So let's start with the name. Where does reason 35
come from?

Steph B (00:53):
Well, how much time do we have?

Bryan (00:56):
Brian very much wants a podcast with our producers. Time
is and we can take it.

Steph B (01:04):
What it boils down to this this recognition there are
all of life is it helps us form opinions about
things and the motives that we engage behind things. And
and in my thinking and in my experience, the more

(01:26):
we understand the reason behind what a person does or
engages or what prompts them, the better we can come
to an understanding we may not ever. And that's not a,
you know, uniformly agree, but it helps to inform that understanding.

(01:49):
So I set out in in all of my experience,
it helped me to to connect with people, engage with
people both in the legislative arena, public affairs, corrections, child advocacy,
correctional officer advocacy is getting to the reason why everyone engaged.

(02:16):
All the stakeholders are moving in this arena, and then
we find common ground we can get past, you know,
we can table the things that we disagree upon. But
when we find that common reason, then it helps to
create a smoother pathway for us to accomplish some common good.

(02:37):
So that's the reason part and 55 is the number
of hope, of optimism, of believing that there can be
a balance. So reason 55 is bringing an intersection of
diverse interests, diverse people, unique and invisible actors. And to

(02:59):
allow them to share their experience, their life. And for
us to sit and engage in some conversation.

Bryan (03:06):
It's really fascinating. Let me try to see if I
can how to apply this concept with a practical application,
because I really struggle with this in the political arena
these days about whether you actually can reason across the aisle.
And I don't want to sound too partisan here, but
let me let me just give an example. I heard
a Republican senator say yesterday in a TV clip that

(03:31):
no one at the January six insurrection was armed. Just
said that. Now, that's plenty of footage of that happening
to those whose lives were lost because that happened. Those
same Republican senators were running for their lives because they
were armed. How do you reason with somebody who I

(03:52):
don't know if he thinks that or not, I can't
get in his head, but he's at least saying so.
So how do I reason somebody like that?

Steph B (03:58):
You know, I think that's a really good question. And
that is part of why there needs to be a
more in-depth conversation beyond let's let's say we don't agree
on whether someone was armed or unarmed. But what we
can't sit down and have a conversation about is what

(04:20):
motivated people. And one of the reasons that we have
different perspectives about this and how do we figure out
how do we find comfort? How do we dialog enough?
Because it takes conversation. And that's the that's the beautiful

(04:42):
thing about this, Brian, is that we can't avoid that
simply disagreement. But the more we unconference, patiently talk about it,
we inevitably get to a root that we can all
begin to see our common good, our common interest, our

(05:05):
common sense of safety and well-being. And and, you know,
everything our Constitution assures us, you know. Exactly. And the
person whose happiness. Now, we all have different perceptions about that.
But the only way we can get to why I believe,
you know, walking around with the unconcealed weapon is a

(05:30):
sense of safety to me versus someone else, which I don't.
But that's neither here nor there versus someone who adamantly
disagrees with that. We can get to the issue of safety.
We can sit down and have a conversation about what

(05:53):
that means to each of us. And and the only
way you can do that is to sit down and
talk about it and all the yelling and bickering and,
you know, showmanship and performative acting. That's counterintuitive to community,
to sitting down and living together and understanding the dynamics

(06:15):
that help us not just coexist, but but thrive together.
So I think that's the challenge of reason 55 is
is getting those interests and opinions together to sit down
and just let's talk through this.

Bryan (06:33):
And so is your is your plan with the show
to maybe do some examples of that or get some
people to vigorously disagree on things and actually show that
in action.

Steph B (06:42):
At some point? Yes, We're beginning with bringing, as I
talked about earlier here, those invisible actors that influence are
and have influence and are actively influencing our society for
that 55. That evolution of hope, that sense that there
can be something better bringing those individuals in and just

(07:06):
talking to them about why they're doing number one, what
they're doing, number two, why they're doing it, and how
they believe that together with more people, more resources, more
understanding that this can be better for everyone. And then
as we go and I have a couple of people

(07:29):
specifically in mind for that. First, you know, they were
the first divergent opinion conversation because I believe they're both
brilliant people. I believe they're diametrically opposed in in politically,

(07:50):
but they ultimately want the same thing because between the
three of us at different times, we've had these two.
Stations to get down to that root issue. And I
walked away. They walked away. And we like I said,
we didn't agree necessarily on either side because they were

(08:11):
both kind of not where I am good. But I
think we all of us, we all three of us
walked away with a better understanding ending of where the
other person.

Bryan (08:23):
Where they are was kind of like, actually, I said,
it's it's an interesting time to Dennis I read an
article yesterday that I've been spitting over my head for
the last 24 hours and it's by and James Clear,
who wrote a book called Atomic Habits Serious Credence and
certainly commend anybody in the book who hasn't read it.
And he read this article I think it's entitled something

(08:43):
like Why Facts Don't Change Our Minds. And and his
point was that evolutionarily we are designed to need to
be accepted by our tribe. In fact, you know, in
prehistoric times, if your tribe abandoned you, you're very likely
to die. Evolution design us in a way. We're like
the approval of the tribe was not just a matter

(09:05):
of social acceptance. Was a matter of survival.

Steph B (09:07):
Absolutely.

Bryan (09:08):
And we're still fundamentally have that genetic makeup. And so
by and large, the opinions have him talking, although it's
really true to me. Like, by and large, the opinions
we hold are the opinions of our modern day tribes
or the Ginsberg family or friends, you know, the, you know,
our scene or the people who we hang out with
on Twitter. And therefore, when we are confronted with a

(09:29):
fact like there was people at the January six insurrection
video of it, it doesn't we're actually not willing to say,
even if we obviously recognize, yes, that happened. We're not
willing to say that it happened because we might get
kicked out of our tribe for doing that. Right. And

(09:50):
that social approval is so important and so and so
his point is like, if you if you actually want
to change people's minds, you have to become their friends.
And his last summer is where you're saying like you
have to essentially, like change the definition of their tribe
and make it okay for them to see your point

(10:11):
of view. So that's that's a lot of blathering. But
what's what's your take generally? Yeah.

Steph B (10:16):
I wholeheartedly agree. Look, Brian, I am a retired youth
correctional officer. I've spent the last decade and a half
looking at the impact of the correctional environment on correctional
officers and that cognitive dissidence that develops as a result

(10:37):
of being in an environment that is socially, politically. And
that's changing both on both fronts. It's changing a little bit,
but the genesis of it was punishment and it still exists.
And that reality that you're engaging in an occupation that

(11:01):
is hurting people, it's an environment and it's look, it's
my job. I did it. I was employed by the
state for 35 years as a youth correctional officer. There
are things that you do when they're they're out of
exactly what you said, out of the necessity of acceptance
within the tribe. That as an individual doesn't jibe with

(11:26):
who you are.

Bryan (11:27):
Right. Right.

Steph B (11:28):
And unfortunately, it create this tension and officers will be
great against this concept that it creates it generates trauma.
But I think when you look at the rising number
of suicides, the rising number of divorces, the rising number

(11:51):
of substance abuse, of termination of just walking that and
forgive me for this, but the walking the hell away
from the job.

Bryan (12:02):
Yeah.

Steph B (12:02):
Because it creates this thing that you can't identify because
there's nothing in your life experience prior to corrections of
being indoctrinated into this tribe, of being institutionalized and even
that support, that acceptance. Now it messes with you. So

(12:27):
in the effort of getting officers to the conversation about
the necessity or the the the I say the mandate
of engaging in in holistic self-care, which is counseling, which is,
you know, psychological therapy, behavioral health therapy, it retreats getting

(12:52):
away from the environment and and creating solid relationships. With
people that don't work in corrections so that you can
be restored, renew the you can thing that you feel
that little voice in the back. Yeah, this is this
ain't right. There's something wrong with this day. You don't

(13:15):
begin to think that you crazy it because you have
another tribe of people saying wow that's yeah that's that's
messed up, man. That's a hard life to live, you know?
And then that's where I think that what you said
is creating that connection, that other community, that other relationship

(13:37):
friendship helps you begin that conversation, if you will. You, you.
Because you you have to you you trust me. I
tried it cold turkey.

Bryan (13:48):
That's not going to work.

Steph B (13:49):
There, man. You it is rejection. They'd be like you said,
they facts don't mean Jack Yeah, I showed them the,
you know, all the com cardiopulmonary deaths, all the renal failure,
all of these diseases that we're taking officers lives prematurely
showed them the statistics and I end up sitting down

(14:13):
with the CCP and creating a model of bringing officers
together in a less confrontational, a less threatening social setting
to introduce these concepts to their health care provider being
through other officers that have licenses. Because we that's the

(14:37):
incredible thing about this occupation. We have two thirds of
our membership with AA degrees or higher. We have people
with DS and so we have a lot of clinical
social worker people with their like clinical social work license.
They came in as officers and sat and talked with

(14:57):
our men and women. And slowly we began this, you know,
changing their narrative and making it okay, Oh, I'm glad
they're an old man.

Bryan (15:07):
I just I can't wait to listen to more about this.
But but before I have let you go, tell us
about your first guest. I think the episode comes out
this week, but it since this first on the show.

Steph B (15:17):
Oh, yeah. Jodi Lewin and I she is the president,
I believe the title is president of Mount Temple Pius College,
previously known as the San Quentin Prison University Project. And
I met Jodi through the association at our convention, probably 14,

(15:40):
maybe 14 years ago or so. And she's this almost saintly,
this personality that is just understanding, that's compassionate there. But, yes,
she's this no nonsense, hard nosed teacher for the lack
of a better term, I would equate her to a

(16:02):
Catholic nun. But I know seasonally.

Bryan (16:06):
She wouldn't be coming on a podcast as she is.
And I'm probably only around.

Steph B (16:09):
But she is, you know, she's this person that believes
that education is a method of helping people find their humanity,
to reconnect with it, to restore it, to rebuild it,
to fortify it. And that that has a value in

(16:31):
helping people reform and transition from what got them to
prison to re-entering society as a healthier, more holistically prepared individual.
And I'll tell you, I sat in a couple classes
at one point at San Quentin, and this was yeah,

(16:52):
this was probably about seven, eight years ago. But I
got to tell you, I felt like I was completely
out of my environment engaging in these conversations with the
professor who was a I don't know at that time.
He was out of one of the universities and was
volunteering in the San Quentin project. But it was a

(17:14):
real class. It was legitimately a real college course. It
wasn't what I'm used to as a correctional officer. Some
of the courses the. We're you know the but in
C kind of thing checkbox. No, no.

Bryan (17:33):
So this is the real deal?

Steph B (17:35):
Yeah, very much so. And she's she's a truly dynamic
individual and I think people will. I hope they walk away. Informed,
enlightened and encouraged by the authenticity of what she brings
and requires from her courses, from her instructors, from all

(17:57):
of her staff, as well as from the inmate students,
our student inmates, however you want to buy them. It's
the real deal. And. Yeah.

Bryan (18:07):
Well, I'm not. I'm looking forward to listening. I have
been told that the best place to find the podcast
is always media dot com. But I assume it's going
to be wherever people get their podcast through.

Steph B (18:17):
Yeah I'm I'm still in the works and getting screwed
up but that I'm aware of it's going to be
on all of your regularly accessible podcast sources Apple Google.
I don't know if SoundCloud is one of them or not, but.
Because I get all mine from Apple. But yeah, I'm

(18:38):
excited for it man, because I have some exciting people
lined up and it's a blessing for me to have
met so many interesting and dynamic people and then give
people an opportunity to look through this lens that I've
had the opportunity to see the world and see the
actors and people engaged. I'm happy and I hope that

(19:01):
excitement translates through and people will come in listening, keep
coming back because it is going to continuously be this evolution.
We say it's an evolution of hope, but it's also
going to be an evolution of the show and the
evolution of Stefan or Stef, because, you know, my hope

(19:23):
for scientists, I guess it's it's you know, the said
is going to evolve everything right now. You see my
comic book collection and all my other little some of
my other little knickknacks. But all of this is going
to grow and change and the substance of what they're
going to hear, hopefully, you know, they'll engage and they'll

(19:45):
throw some ideas out at us because we have a
list of about in my head, there's about 30 people.
But at the same time, I'm looking for people that
people find interesting, that they know that they're doing something
valuable for our society. And it doesn't have to be
my definition of value.

Bryan (20:04):
So I'm looking forward to it. I hope everybody will listen.
And I'll just say this is just a plug for
these kind of conversations. Generally, you know, there's a lot
of bad stuff going on with the way we communicate
these days, primarily social media and cable news, the way
it fragments everything. And as as I've talked about with
the people who produce the shows, I actually think podcasts
are really, really positive, bright lights of what's going on,

(20:27):
because at their best, it's a way to listen in
on conversations that you would otherwise never get to hear,
you know? And as the podcast, I like the mouse
right here, like really smart people like you. It was
really interesting, I guess, like, you know, talking about what
you know, about what you're passionate about. And, you know,
you don't get to do that anywhere else in media
and you don't get to, like, you know, eavesdrop on
people at a coffee shop. I suppose you can.

Steph B (20:48):
But it man, I like I said, I've had the
opportunity to sit in the room with, you know, the
everyday guy and gal did, you know working as the
saying goes, 9 to 5 and you know, they're taking
care of their their life, their families life, the dog,

(21:08):
the cat. And we've had some dynamic conversations. And then
I've also had the opportunity to sit he was vice
president at the time, but I've had the opportunity to
sit with Joe Biden and talk about early childhood education,
a talk with our speaker here on multiple issues. I've

(21:29):
even had some conversations with the with Gavin Newsom, the
governor here, about, you know, the future of work. And
so I'm looking forward to the opportunity, as you just said,
of allowing people to sit and listen to some of
the people that are having these interesting conversations. Man, And.

Bryan (21:50):
It's all about right. And that's why I think this media,
particularly during COVID, but certainly, you know, moving on before
it's really has really took on so well. Sammy, I'm
going to make sure I listen on Tuesday and stuff
that Steph and or Steph because you going to be
gone any time you want to come back and talk
about a specific episode, we'd love to have you here.

(22:11):
So thanks for being on the show today.

Steph B (22:13):
Thank you, Amy. You are more than welcome to come on, too, brother.
I've had some great conversations with you as well, so
I think people would be interested in your perspective of
exactly what you talked about. The value of podcast. In
the nation state of play.

Bryan (22:30):
I promise you that I am also happy to be
a guinea pig for one of these experiments on how
to disagree with someone, because I find myself doing that
too much. As if you could have. You can help
me with that. I will give you one for Shield brothers. Thanks, Alaska.

Steph B (22:49):
Thank you.