Ep. 242 - Jessie Ryan

Jessie Ryan with The Campaign For College Opportunity joins us to discuss access to higher education and how policy-makers can improve community college transfer rates across the country.

(Originally aired 17Nov22)

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Episode Transcript

VO (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in this program are those
of the Speaker's and do not necessarily reflect the views
or positions of any entities they represent, including Olas Media.

Bryan (00:12):
Olas media. Olas media presents Nation state of play. Welcome to

(00:37):
the Nation State of Play podcast. I'm your host, Brian Miller.
And each episode we explore the political stories that are
driving public policy in California. We explore these stories with
political insiders, business leaders, journalists and policymakers themselves. To get
below the surface of the headlines and show you the
true forces shaping our nation's state. Thanks for listening. Today,
we have a great guest, Jesse Ryan, with the Campaign

(00:59):
for College College access. Such an important issue at the
federal and state level. And Jesse really has a unique
vantage point on these topics because she works both in California,
access issues, but also increasingly at the federal side as well.
So our conversation is about what we can do both
with existing law and potentially new laws to really increase

(01:20):
access to community college and to improve those transfer rates
from community college to four year degrees to make sure
that people are actually seeing through and getting four year degrees.
And that's really troubling enrollment declines in college in general
in California recently, but particularly community college. So have a
chance to cover that with Jesse. You have a chance

(01:40):
to get her expert opinion on why that is and
what we can do about it and what the legislature
and what DC can do to make progress on these issues.
So stay with us. Coming up right after this, Jesse
Ryan with the Campaign for College. Jesse, thanks so much
for being on the show today. We really appreciate the
chance to have you.

Jessie (01:57):
Thanks for having me, Bryan. I'm actually looking forward to
our conversation.

Bryan (02:02):
Me too. Me too. You know, there's so much going
on with higher education these days. It's a it's a
noisy place. So we're excited to have you guys back
on because you really the statewide leaders on this and
I know you're getting into the federal issues, too, which
I want to talk to you about. But for our
listeners who are not familiar with your organization, can you
tell us a little bit about your group and what
you focus on?

Jessie (02:23):
I'm happy to do that. So the Campaign for College
Opportunity is a state and now national nonprofit, and we
are focused on dramatically improving the rates by which our
students are getting into and succeeding in public colleges and universities.
We also have a really intentional focus on closing racial

(02:44):
equity gaps, ensuring that our black, Latino, X, Asian-American, Native,
Hawaiian and Pacific Islander students are reaching their college goals
and contributing to our future workforce.

Bryan (02:55):
So you yourself are a product of community college. Tell
us just a little bit about your journey, because I
think it's really inspiring and helpful as we weigh out
these issues.

Jessie (03:05):
So I am a proud product of California community colleges
and also the California State University system and brand. I
actually am not that different from so many students in
California in that I was the first in my family
to go to college, grew up as the daughter of
a struggling single mother and moved around a lot, actually

(03:26):
went to eight different schools between kindergarten and high school.
But I was very fortunate to have a mother who,
despite the fact that we were low income, told me
that my pathway out of poverty would be through achieving
a college education. So I often share that while other
kids were having their parents read to them their nightly

(03:46):
fairy tales. My mom would share Cinderella, and at the
end of the Cinderella story, she would say instead of
they lived happily ever after. She would say. And then
Cinderella went to college and graduate school. So the message
I got pretty much from birth was that I was
going to go to college and that that was going
to be my ticket to having an opportunity in life.

Bryan (04:09):
To love it. Great, great story. So we've got a
lot of stuff going on in California on the federal side, too.
And I think one of the interesting issues that we
had a chance to chat about before the show was
how few people are actually making it to four year
degrees in California when they're starting in community college. I
wonder if you could sort of lay out a little

(04:31):
bit of those numbers for us. And then I'd like
to talk to you about the history of where we've
been in California and where we hopefully can go all
over the country on this.

Jessie (04:38):
So I think that this is a really troubling issue
that unfortunately, not enough people are aware of and tracking closely. So,
you know, community colleges are the gateway to opportunity for 80%
of our students who are seeking access to college just
like they were for me. Unfortunately, the number of students

(05:00):
who are actually making it through who are transferring from
community colleges to a four year university within two years
is less than 3%. And if you bump that up
to four or even six year cohort rates, you're only
seeing a six year transfer rate of less than 30%
of students. And so for so many students who look

(05:22):
to community colleges as an affordable way, for them to
gain access to the classes they need, that will help
them hopefully cross that stage with the degree in hand.
They are taking much longer than they had anticipated to
transfer if they are transferring at all. And there are
a variety of reasons. But for most students and families,

(05:43):
it is a reality check because two year transfer is
the goal. And yet that is not the reality for
the majority of students.

Bryan (05:52):
What ballpark is the overall completion rate of a four
year degree for people starting community college?

Jessie (05:59):
Yeah. So the reality is that for students who started
a community college, when I shared that about 3% will
successfully transfer and less than 30% will actually within two years,
less than 30% within six years. The reality is that
if a community college student makes it to a four
year university, they actually have a high likelihood of completing

(06:20):
that degree if they make it to the University of
California system. We see really strong graduation rates within two
or three years of transfer. And for the CSU, we
also see really strong graduation rates, completion rates of 60%
or more within two or three years of transfer. Unfortunately,

(06:41):
it's really hard to measure the completion rate for community
college students who start at a community college because the
reality is that for so many students, they will stop
out before they're even counted. That's because they will be
told that the classes that they need will actually not
count towards that credit for getting a degree. So, so

(07:03):
many of our students start at a community college. They
take an assessment test and because of that assessment test,
they're put into remedial courses. And for students who are
put into remedial courses for math or English, that is
often the graveyard of buried hopes for our students who
find themselves in those classes. The life. Likelihood of them

(07:24):
climbing out is very small. And then those students, unless
they actually hit a threshold of achieving a certain number
of units and taking transfer level math or English are
actually being counted. And so really, really a huge issue
for students and difficult to say for all students who
started a community college with hopes of completing a degree.

(07:46):
What that total rate is.

Bryan (07:48):
So what is the answer to this? Let's start with California.
You've done several different ways of tackling this problem. And
as Senator Padilla was involved, that when he was in
the legislature. But what do you what do you think
the main policy levers are here to change these outcomes?

Jessie (08:03):
That's a great question. So, you know, we know that
students and families do really well when they have clear
information that results in a strong and simplified path to
transfer with an associate's degree to show for their work.
If you look across the country at states that have

(08:24):
high performing transfer, those states have a few key attributes
in place. Those states are offering students a common course
numbering system so that they know that if they take
map 100 at one college and then they end up
continuing their community college journey at another college, that Math
100 is the same and will count. They have a

(08:46):
lower division general education system that is common so that
that lower division, general education can count towards either admission
to the CSU or see admission to a four year
university of choice. And they have a true 60 plus
60 or two year plus two year pathway to a baccalaureate.

(09:06):
That means that students have units that they can take
that will get them to an associate's degree, guarantee their
admission at a four year university, and then ensure that
within an additional 60 units, they'll get that baccalaureate degree
in California with the help of Senator Alex Padilla. We
have been very successful in creating an associate degree for transfer,

(09:30):
and we've actually seen that for community college students across
the state. We've had nearly 400,000 associate degrees for transfers awarded,
and that has resulted in students not just getting into
the California State University system, but getting in and being
told all of your classes counted, you are a junior

(09:50):
and you are going to have a much clearer and
more concise path to a baccalaureate degree. We want to
make sure that all students can take advantage of that
same thing. Singular pathway.

Bryan (10:03):
How has that impacted the overall numbers in California, or
is there are there more things that you're pushing for
now to help improve these outcomes?

Jessie (10:13):
So, you know, one of the things that we've seen
is that while the associate degree for transfer has really helped,
in particular our Latin X students increase their community college transfer.
We still have some ground to make up because there
has been some uneven implementation and access to associate degrees

(10:33):
across the state of California. We actually just had a
big champions event that we did with more than 30
community college and CSU institutions to really recognize their innovation
and the efforts that they've undertaken to create more equitable
transfer paths to ensure that the associate degree for transfer

(10:54):
is the primary path for students in their region. We
want to make sure that no matter where a student
goes to school, they will have an equal opportunity to
access the ADT and that the ADT will be offered
in the maximum number of degree pathways aligned with workforce demand.
And so one of the things that we've been working

(11:15):
on with the help of Assembly Member Berman, who has
been an incredible champion in this work, is the creation
of a common course numbering system in California. To get
to that first point that I was sharing of strong,
high performing transfer in other states, but also the creation
of an associate degree for transfer statewide in our segmental

(11:37):
work group, which I'm serving on as the governor's appointee.
And as part of that, we will actually be developing
80 TS in STEM professions, which we know are critical
to meeting future workforce demand. We'll also be charged with
creating a pathway to the ADT that makes the ADT
a default placement for community college students across the state.

(11:59):
No matter which of the 117 community colleges they go to.
If a pathway exists. And we think that's going to
be here so that students aren't relying upon luck or
understanding their options. There is a placement on to this
pathway where it's available statewide.

Bryan (12:17):
Is that something that is going to take more legislation
from Sacramento, or is this in the approach process? Or
can you give us a sense of what needs to happen?

Jessie (12:27):
Yeah. So we actually sent a couple big pieces of legislation. First,
under Senator Padilla's watch more than ten years ago and
more recently under Assemblymember Berman's leadership through 89 to 8
and 1111. We are in the early stages of implementing
those policies right now. Assemblymember Berman's legislation to create a

(12:50):
common course numbering system and to create that strong ADT
across the state with default placement and STEM pathways. We
really need folks to continue to be involved to watchdog
implementation so that this is not held up. One of
the things that we found is that passing good legislation

(13:11):
is only a piece of the hard work that the
real victory comes when you dig in and you implement
the legislation with fidelity. And we're going to see through
the entire segmental work group over the course of the
next couple of years some really important work being done
to do just that, to implement with fidelity, to create

(13:31):
maximum options for STEM students and based on future workforce demand,
and to ensure that the ADT does become the primary
pathway for community college students across the state. Which, to
your earlier question, Brian, will get us to a place
where we are, we believe, significantly improving transfer rates, shortening

(13:53):
time to transfer and improving completion rates statewide.

Bryan (13:58):
Really help from the background. So let me ask you
about the federal side, because obviously this involves presumably thousands
of community colleges across the country. And and what and
I know you're in D.C. now starting to work on
these issues to implement at a national level. What do
we need to be doing from a federal perspective in
this space? Well.

Jessie (14:18):
I think it's important that people understand that the challenges
that we're experiencing in California are not unique, that we're
actually seeing really staggering community college enrollment decline across the country.
And that is really troubling for many reasons, especially for

(14:38):
racial equity advocates, because we know that community colleges are
going to provide opportunity for so many students, low income
students of color across the country. So, you know, one
of the things that we're looking at right now, working
with Senator Padilla and Congressional Representative Joaquin Castro, is the
Transfer Transparency Act, which would actually require that campuses across

(15:02):
the country. Re post their articulation agreement so that community
college students and families understand what classes will count for
transfer admissions to which universities. At the four year level
to simplify and streamline their pathway. We're also looking at
a variety of other opportunities we have to ensure that

(15:26):
we are doing what we know works for community college students,
and that's, as I shared earlier, making sure that they
are put on a clear pathway at the beginning of
their journey so that they are not trying to figure
it out a couple of years and not necessarily knowing
that their classes count. There was a really good report
that came out from the Government Accountability Office that provided

(15:48):
some recommendations. And then the last Higher ed reauthorization Act,
which was more than 15 years ago, there was language
related to requiring campuses to institute transfer practices that actually
meet the needs of students and families across the country.
We're in a place right now where we're pursuing legislation,

(16:09):
but we're also looking at the opportunity to hold our
institutions more accountable to the practices that we know work.
And I shared some of those practices earlier. We're excited
that there is legislation that has in the past been
instituted that might not have been implemented, but that we can,
as advocates, rally around as a way to ensure that

(16:31):
campuses are doing what they should be to meet the
needs of students.

Bryan (16:36):
Yeah, So let's talk about a little bit more because,
you know, we're in an age of political gridlock. You know,
of your experience of 15 years since since the last
reauthorization bill, unfortunately, is all too common in Washington. But
this is something that has already passed. What do you
attribute the lack of implementation to from your perspective as

(16:56):
the general Washington inertia, or are there any political forces
at play here that we should be flagging?

Jessie (17:03):
Well, unfortunately, I think that transfer has been largely a
sleeper issue that not a lot of people have been watchdog.
Not a lot of individuals have stayed on over the
course of the years. Unlike things like student debt, which
get a lot of attention and seem to be sexier issues.

(17:25):
Community college transfer just kind of is under the radar.
And that means that even when good policy and practice
is put in place, if you don't actually have advocates,
if you don't have student organizations that are holding institutions
and policy makers accountable, then you don't necessarily see the
progress that's necessary to really celebrate change and improve student outcomes.

(17:52):
And that's been the case of community college transfer. I mean, arguably,
when community colleges are the lifeline for so many students
across the country, transfer is probably one of the most
important functions in public education. And we could and should
be doing so much more to ensure it works well,

(18:13):
works for students is seamless, is timely, is affordable. But
there have not been many people at the national level
seeing this work through. So we're excited at the campaign
for College opportunity to be working with partners through the
Higher Education Equity Network and other leaders that see this
as a critical issue. That is at it's time, which

(18:36):
is when we see enrollment decline at the rates we're
seeing at community colleges, when we're trying to figure out
strategies for encouraging students to re enroll and give them
confidence that they can complete their degrees in a timely fashion.
This is a really good way to instill that confidence
and invest our time and energy. So I think that

(18:57):
we're going to see a renewed focus on improving community
college transfer. And I also think that with that renewed focus,
the advocacy community and our institutional allies have a huge
opportunity to make some real change.

Bryan (19:12):
So where does implementation of this live at the federal
level is is solely within the Department of Education or
any other agencies we should have on our radar in
this discussion?

Jessie (19:21):
Another good question. So the Department of Education, as you know,
provides guidance to institutions. We also have the ability to
influence the accreditation commissions around accrediting institutions and ensuring that
they are doing everything they can to improve a seamless
transfer process for our students. So really, if we're looking

(19:43):
at where our federal level levers are, our greatest levers
are working with the Department of Education. So they're giving strong,
actionable guidance to the field and working with our accreditation
commission so that they are making this a priority in accreditation,
which is about as good as it gets in terms
of the institutional accountability.

Bryan (20:02):
A bit more about the accreditation commissions. I'm not super
familiar with that. Who are they? Who appoints them? Who
are they? Yeah.

Jessie (20:10):
So the community colleges, colleges in general go through a
process of validation called accreditation. And that accreditation really requires
a community college to demonstrate their core competencies that they
are in fact operating in a way that ensures that
they have strong learning outcomes for students, for the state,

(20:33):
for our workforce, for our country. And the accreditation Commission
is an interesting group of individuals that actually go to
colleges and through a rubric, evaluate whether or not those
colleges are meeting a set of goals. So it is
a good opportunity to ensure that the institutions that are

(20:55):
meeting our students, opening their doors, providing them with the seat,
are actually doing everything that they can and should be
to complete and to complete in a way that is
going to result in a meaningful credential or degree.

Bryan (21:13):
Interesting. So back to the Department of Education's role in this.
When you bring up this topic, which seems like just
such good common sense, this is the kind of thing
nobody can argue with. Do you hear any resistance or
is it just a matter of bureaucratic inertia that hasn't
been on people's radar, hasn't been made a priority?

Jessie (21:33):
So the good news is, I think that individuals like
Undersecretary Coble care about this issue. I think the challenge
has been that in the face of big issues like
student debt relief, ensuring that this is prioritized with equal
intensity and focus, I think that the reality is that

(21:56):
the Department of Education is doing a lot right now,
not just on higher ed, but also K-12. And and
the tremendous undertaking of trying to ensure that we're meeting
the needs of students and educators across the country in
a pandemic and endemic world. And so this issue of

(22:17):
improving higher ed and transfer is probably just lower priority
amidst these other urgent items that the Department of Education
is taking on. But I do think that they are
interested and see value and innovating around this issue of
transfer pathways. And so I see a real opportunity for
us to work more closely with the Department of Ed

(22:39):
moving forward. It's just a matter of ensuring that with
limited capacity, this cuts through the clutter, if you will.

Bryan (22:49):
So let me go back to the Transfer Transparency Act,
which you brought up. How would that overlay with what
is already on the books but not implemented? What is
what's additional about that bill?

Jessie (23:01):
Yeah. So, you know, as you know, right now at
the state level, we have some states that are high
performing and transfer and we have others that are not.
But the problem is that with that variability from state
to state in transfer practices, it really is so often

(23:22):
leadership contingent, right? If you have a strong governor, if
you have strong policy makers or if you have strong
institutional leaders, you will put in place the practices of
high performing transfer institutions. And if you don't if you
don't see value in prioritizing this work, unfortunately, you know,
transfer continues to be challenging for far too many students

(23:44):
in your state. What the Transfer Transparency Act does is
it continues to empower states to innovate and to improve
transfer practices. But it creates consistency no matter which state
you're in across the country and ensuring that there is
uniform notification, uniform information and awareness for students and families

(24:07):
around articulation agreements, which are the agreements between campuses, community
college campuses and for your campuses, or one campus and
another on the standards that will be met in order
to be admitted to those campuses for a four.

Bryan (24:21):
Year.

Jessie (24:22):
Degree.

Bryan (24:23):
Got it. So that's really helpful. Glad to hear that
that's in the works. It sounds like you had the
opportunity to make a lot of progress on the federal side.
Only have a few minutes left, but let me bring
it back to California. In terms of these enrollment declines,
we haven't had a chance to get into what's driving
those enrollment declines. So let me ask you that at
a high level, what do you see as the big

(24:43):
factors here that are hurting enrollment at the moment?

Jessie (24:46):
So this is the the billion dollar question, if you will.
Everybody is trying to figure out, you know, what's behind
the enrollment declines because they're not just happening and higher. Ed,
we're also seeing some really challenging, you know, missing students
at the K-12 level as the pandemic continues on. What

(25:07):
we have attributed much of the enrollment decline to is
the fact that there is a very real debate happening
right now around the value of college. And that value
of college debate is not whether or not college itself
has value. It really is whether or not college is affordable,

(25:27):
whether or not the prospect of paying for an education
or the return that you will get makes sense in
terms of the tradeoffs that students and families will make,
especially in an economy that is for for employees, a
really good marketplace to find a job and for students

(25:50):
who have some college but no degree much more attractive
in terms of entering the workplace and delaying the completion
of a certificate or a degree. I think the other
big piece is you've heard a lot, a lot around
college affordability in terms of student debt. You've also heard
a lot about college affordability as it relates to free

(26:14):
community college. And the reality is that in California we
have free community college. We have two years of free
community college. But that doesn't necessarily make community college affordable
because the total cost of attending college is what really
keeps students and families up at night. And that total

(26:35):
cost of attending college is the costs of books, housing, transportation, food,
all of those expenses that make up the ability to
keep a roof over their head, food on the table
and go about life. And so just providing students with
free community college is not enough. In California, actually, last year,

(26:58):
we were really proud to sponsor legislation with a group
of incredible student advocates across the state to create a
Cal Grant equity framework. And that is the financial aid
system that doesn't just pay for fees, but actually covers
the total cost of attendance for low income students across

(27:19):
the state. And it would expand our Cal Grant for
community college students would also expand for a cohort of
students at the CSU financial aid opportunities as well at
the seat at the UC system. Unfortunately, while Governor Newsom
awarded in the budget the equity framework, he did not

(27:41):
appropriate the funding to see the Cal grant equity framework
into fruition. So what does that mean? That means that
Governor Newsom said, I see that this is an issue
that is really nagging at students and parents ability, families
abilities to attend college. I am going to make this

(28:01):
a priority, but because I don't know what tomorrow's budget
will look like or next year, because we might have
a recession six months or 18 months out, I'm going
to adopt the principle of the Cal Grant equity framework,
but I'm not actually going to put those checks in
the hands of students until we can figure out as
a state where that funding is going to come from.

(28:24):
And that is so critical because what we're trying to
figure out, how do we get students to re-enroll? How
do we remove barriers to accessing higher ed? Affordability is
number one, front and center. And true affordability only comes
when we're covering the total cost of college. And we
think that this is one of the best ways that

(28:45):
we can tackle that issue.

Bryan (28:47):
Okay. So that's really helpful context. And let me ask
you the same question I asked you on the federal side.
It sounds like this is within Governor Newsom's office or
there are other agencies involved with this from a California perspective,
or is there any legislative involvement here? Who needs to
make sure they hear this message?

Jessie (29:04):
So the California Student Aid Commission is the one that
oversees financial aid in California. They've been a huge partner
and lead advocate in the Cal Grant equity framework. Our policymakers,
both the Assembly and Senate, have also been really strong partners. Really.
We need all of the players to get together. The governor,

(29:26):
the California Student Aid Commission, our policy makers and the
Department of Finance, to figure out a way to fund
this work and to fund it not just next year
and the year after, but to make a ongoing commitment
to that financial aid. There is no better return on
investment than removing the barrier of college affordability for our students.

Bryan (29:48):
Well, Jesse, we're going to have to cut it. This
is such an important topic and we covered a lot
of ground semester. Let me speak to you through a
lot of topics there. But if people want to find
out more about your organization, get involved. Where can they
go to find out more?

Jessie (30:02):
They can come to our website, which is w w
w College Camp Pain Board. We have a variety of
research on the website. We also have our priority bills
and the practices and policies that we're working on right now.
We'd love to have you be part of our coalition work.

Bryan (30:22):
Well, thanks so much for being on the show. Great
to have you. Jesse, thanks for everything you're doing.

Jessie (30:26):
Thanks, Bryan. I appreciate the conversation. Thanks for having me.

Bryan (30:29):
We invite you to share story, ideas, comments and questions.
Find us at Neptune Hopscotch or on Twitter at at
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to explore the inside stories driving California policy. This is

(30:50):
the nation's State of Play podcast. I'm your host, Brian Miller,
and thank you for us. Olas media.