Nothings off Limits - Body Image and Appearance (Ep6)

Nothing’s Off Limits: brings together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid but absolutely need to talk about.

In this episode, Tess and Polly explore Body image and Appearance. What do we mean when we talk about body image and what perceptions do you have of your own and others’ appearance if you are blind or have low vision?

Nothings off Limits is made with the support of Vision Australia Radio and the NDIS Information Linkages Capacity Building grant. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:03):
Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with
the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages
and capacity building grant building grants.

S2 (00:23):
Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits.
My name is Polly and together with my co-host Tess
over ten episodes, we're exploring some of those topics which
we might usually consider off limits and discussing them openly
and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness and
vision with the help of expert guests.

S3 (00:42):
And there'll be more information at the end of the
show about how you can catch this episode and other
episodes of Nothing's Off Limits on the Vision Australia website.

S2 (00:49):
In this episode, we're talking about body image and appearance.
What do we mean when we talk about body image?
And how do you connect with that concept if you
want primarily visual? What perceptions do you have of your
own and others appearance if you are blind to have
no vision? What messages are we sending through the way
we present ourselves? And how do you find out what
society's rules of what someone should look like are an

(01:12):
exercise your right to follow or break those rules on
your own terms? This is an emotive topic for those
protests and me, and if you were affected by any
of the issues in the show, please contact Lifeline on
one three one one one four or the Butterfly Foundation,
the national charity for all Australians impacted by eating disorders
and body image issues, and for the families, friends and

(01:34):
community to support them. Their national helpline number is one
800 three four six seven three. The way we dress
and style our hair or makeup is one component of
creating and expressing body image. Here at Vision Australia, we've
done a number of projects to make the world of
fashion more accessible, including partnering with Melbourne Fashion Festival to
audio describe some ways. The interest in these has really

(01:57):
debunked the perception that if you are blind or have
low vision fashion and the way you look is not
a priority to test this further, we asked you how
much does appearance and body image matter to you?

S1 (02:08):
Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. How much
does appearance and body image matter to you?

S4 (02:20):
It doesn't personally matter much to me. It matters other people.
And I think sometimes that's quite sad.

S5 (02:26):
When I'm walking around the house, I won't necessarily see
in the hallway. Mirror is a big of jam on
my lap or that I've got child related grot running
down the front of my T-shirt. It's very embarrassing when
somebody pointed out, and I guess I need to learn
to be more open and receptive when people pointing this
stuff out to me. Other than that, I don't think
I smell too bad. Although a shower is never a

(02:49):
relaxing experience for me, I'm always worried that I'm going
to fall on the backside.

S1 (02:55):
Not too much. What's inside a person is what matters. Oh,
probably a six or seven out of 10. I am.
I like to look nice, but I'm not going to
go crazy over it. It matters to me a lot
because I like to present well in all different situations.
Does being blind can make you more conscious of how

(03:17):
you present yourself? Yes, definitely. And it's something that you
learn as you get older. It's not something that comes
to people naturally.

S6 (03:24):
It matters actually quite a lot to me, and I
think it was when you're blind you because you don't
see what other people look like. Sometimes it can be
easy to have quite a distorted view of yourself because
you can't see what's around you. You actually don't know
where you often fit in the scheme of things. You know,
you might think you're quite overweight, but you may not
be well the other way around. You know, you might
think that, you know, a certain something looks good on you.

(03:47):
And I guess if you feel good, that's all that matters.
But for me, it is quite important.

S1 (03:51):
Body image and appearance are really important to me, both
my own and others that I'm

S5 (03:56):
with in the conventional sense. I'm a man in my mid-40s,
so I've put on a few pounds. But actually in
this country full of sunny, tanned people, I thin white
and hairy, which is why they see me wear Arashi
indoors at the swimming pool. In terms of that, in
the context of sight. I wear sunglasses and I'm still
a little self-conscious about it. But when you don't wear

(04:18):
a set glass, you go, I'm going to a day
just being me, not me wearing glasses. May you put
on a pair of contact lenses whenever I stop to
look at my phone, read a menu or squint at
a bus stop. There's always some smart alec who comes
up to you and says, Oh, you need glasses, mate. Like,
I haven't thought of that before.

S7 (04:34):
I would say it matters quite a lot. I was
born vision impaired. I have low vision when I was
first learning to use a mobility cane and I found
it very confronting the way people were reacting to me
and nervousness, and I was getting a train with my cane.
It's amazing. Man got onto the train. He was young,
really beautifully dressed in like a three piece suit and

(04:57):
a briefcase looked sleek and professional, and he was using
a cane. I noticed that everyone was reacting very differently
to him. He was using his cane very confidently, and
he looked very much like he was successful in the world.
And I was just really impressed by it made me
think how much? It's great to be well dressed when
your vision impaired for me anyway.

S2 (05:18):
Tess, you've graciously agreed to take off your hosting hat
for a moment to share a story about your experience
navigating body image. As a young woman who is blind
when you were in your late teens, early 20s, you
have quite a negative relationship with how you perceived your body.

S3 (05:33):
Even when I was a younger teenager, 14 15, I
didn't really like the way my body looked. I didn't
think I was tall enough, slim enough. But it really
took a toll when I was about 19. The year before,
I'd taken some tablets to help me with hormone related
difficulties and my body had undergone some changes. The time

(05:54):
came that there was an event that I was going to,
and I wore addressed. Various bits of my body was
sort of not quite fitting into it, and I really did.
I felt genuine repulsion and I just thought it is
just because I don't look right. I'm too fat, I'm
too I'm too swollen. I was also experiencing a lot
of anxiety that that was I can't say it was unrelated,
but it was at. The anxiety was about all sorts

(06:15):
of aspects of my life, and I felt like the
only thing I could really have control over was how
much I ate or didn't eat. And so combining this
repulsion with the way I looked and my need for control,
I really started to engage in some fairly self-destructive behaviours,
like starving myself periods, trying to make myself sick, trying
to bloat myself in order to make myself sick. So

(06:36):
it was something not right about my body, and the
world was full of thin, beautiful women and I was
not one of them. And therefore I wasn't fit to
wear nice clothes. I wasn't fit to do anything except
just try and make myself a little bit less horrifying.
And that behaviour continued for a couple of years and tests.

S2 (06:54):
Some people might be curious as to how you have
these pressures, perceived pressures around how you look and when
you are yourself blind. What was driving them?

S3 (07:03):
Do you think I was feeling like I wasn't fitting
into my clothes? There was a particular time where I
wore a dress and my breasts had to be sort of,
I guess we had to use a bit of tape
because my breasts were too were too big. And then
we're sort of coming out. I've always been interested in
the visual world around me and wanting to know what
my family and friends look like. And I suppose my

(07:24):
perceptions of a lot of them were that they were
tall and thin, that I was short and fat. It's
hard because I couldn't look into a mirror. I couldn't
really see what I looked like. All I could see
was if I occasionally was brave enough to stand on
the scales, and even though I was average weight, it
didn't seem enough. And you know, so I'd I'd be
pinching my waist to try and find out how I

(07:46):
looked there or not. In my mind, I was squeezing
handfuls of fat that manifested in, you know, starving myself,
trying to make myself sick and. Also exercising a bit
too much, Tess,

S2 (07:57):
I wish I could travel back in time and give
your younger self just the

S4 (08:00):
biggest hug.

S2 (08:01):
How did you get through this?

S3 (08:03):
I through it. I had a lot of friends and family.
I took me a couple of years to tell my family,
but when they knew they were fantastic, I mean, my
sister saw that I wasn't eating very much and that
I would take any excuse not to eat. My family
were living a few hours away, so they they want
to know, and a few friends of mine knew, and
they encouraged me to seek professional help. So I did that.

(08:25):
I think I went to a support group with a friend.
I think it was about six months after I started
having these problems. For a couple of years, I had,
you know, counselling on and off. Sometimes I would feel
OK about my body and then I'd spiral. But then
I got to about 23 24, and I just started
to experience a more positive feel about my body. I
stopped feeling quite so repulsed by it, and I started

(08:47):
feeling like I was actually. This was the way I
was meant to look. And I think it was as
much the counselling and support and affirmation of family and
friends that really helped me get there. By the time
I was 23 24, I finally got to a stage.
After all that support where I could be proud of
my body, I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not tall,
but I'm not short. I'm not slim, but I'm not fat. I'm,

(09:08):
you know, I'm curvy. But that was the way I
was meant to be. And what you said about wishing
you could give my 19, 20 year old self a
big hug. I wish the same thing, and I wish
that I could have heard a story like mine, and
I hope that other young women who are struggling might
hear this story because these days, you know, 10 years
after I was having these problems, I like my body.
I can see how I was meant to be this way,

(09:30):
and I love food. I love enjoying food, and I
know how unhealthy and how ill I was back then
when I was what I might have called slimmer test.

S2 (09:38):
Thank you so much. This really doesn't feel like something
that gets talked about, particularly in this community, and it's
pretty generous of you to share your experience and earnings.

S4 (09:47):
Thank you.

S1 (09:47):
If this program has brought up any issues for you,
please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or online at
Lifeline dot org dot AEW. The suicide call back service
is one 300 six five nine four six seven or
online at Suicide Call Back Service dot org. Today you

(10:08):
there's beyondblue 1800 double to four, six, three six and
online and beyond blue dot org dot. Hey you!

S2 (10:17):
And let's continue the conversation by bringing in our first guest.
Courtney Nicky Courtney is a trained psychologist who works at
Mission Australia for nearly 13 years in a number of capacities. Courtney,
you've been listening in. What did you make of Tess's experience?
There might be, I guess, a perception that this hyper
awareness of your body or your image, if you're if
you're blind, isn't that common? Is that your understanding?

S4 (10:38):
Yeah, I think it's more common than most people realize.
I mean, we're all getting messages as tested that we're
not good enough from society through the media and through
corporate advertising. But people with disabilities in particular are getting
those messages and particularly about their body, and because people
with disabilities can't necessarily avoid the stigma of disability. Sometimes

(11:00):
we seek approval of our bodies in other ways. Our
bodies are a tangible thing, and we're told that we
should be able to control them and we force the
lie that everybody is supposed to be the same. And unfortunately,
that keeps us busy instead of doing what we actually want,
what's good for us. And I think people with vision
impairments just as likely to be influenced by these pressures

(11:21):
as anyone else.

S2 (11:22):
And it was interesting tests you mentioned as well around
your relationship with food. And obviously, we know food impacts
how our body looks and how well it functions. But
there's this whole raft of other roles that food plays
in our lives, from social, cultural and emotional perspectives. Are
there specific challenges around that if you're blind to have
that vision?

S3 (11:39):
I'd definitely say that there are, especially if you're out.
So when I when I wasn't particularly well, I'd go
out to a to a birthday or I'd even go
out with friends and they would all want to go,
you know, to it, to a coffee shop or whatever.
And you know, there were very few things that I
feel like I could eat, and I would have to

(12:00):
get them to read the whole menu and try and
find something that you know that I could eat. That
was healthy enough. But also if I was going out
with friends and they all wanted to do something that
related to food, I couldn't just say, Oh, you guys
get something to eat, chaps, I'll I'll go, you know,
I'll go and, you know, look around the shops when
you get something to eat. So I did feel a

(12:20):
sense of being a bit trapped in a bit anxious,
which now I can see it. It's such a shame
because as you say, poly food is such a social
cultural thing. I mean, these days, I absolutely love food,
all types of food, and I feel I find it's
emotionally soothing. It's a wonderful thing to enjoy with friends,
often with a glass of wine. But but yes, I
do remember feeling quite quite trapped as somebody who was

(12:41):
blind trying to find something that I that I could
eat without, without feeling like I was blowing up by
the second, but also feeling feeling trapped into it.

S2 (12:48):
Courtney, you've you've mentioned as well in previous conversations about
how the idea about autonomy and agency when you're eating out.
Something that isn't necessarily a given if you're blind.

S4 (12:57):
Yeah, that's right. As Test mentioned, you don't have to
rely on other people to understand what's available to you.
And when somebody provides you with that food, it's really
a take it or leave it type prospect because you
don't have that ability to browse in the same way
that somebody whose voice on it has. And particularly if
you've got dietary preferences as a vegetarian or vegan, I

(13:17):
find that often my options are quite limited anyway. Yeah.
So food plays many roles. Definitely. It's a form of
comfort and pleasure. It's a way of exchanging love, as
as mentioned. You know, when you're out with friends, you're
often sharing a meal together or you're even giving gifts
of food. It can be an opportunity to escape or

(13:40):
take some time out from others, as well as any
expectations you feel of being late on you. And it's
a way of having choice and control, especially if you
don't necessarily have choice and control in other areas of
your life. So it makes a lot of emotional needs.
But as testers is also mentioned, unless the relationship with
food is a healthy one, it can do a lot

(14:01):
of damage to your pleasure in your own body, to
your connection with others, and to an ability to do
what you want. Because you start to restrict yourself and
prohibit yourself from taking action unless you're the perfect thing
that you need to be. So I think what's important
to remember is that there are other ways of meeting
our emotional needs, of soothing our discomfort and feeling good,

(14:22):
and it's best to have a broad range of strategies
and not just food.

S2 (14:27):
That's excellent advice, Courtney. Sort of a tool box of
ways of coping with when things get tough or or
whatever it might be.

S4 (14:34):
What's the likely?

S2 (14:35):
Do you think that there's a perception that if you're
blind or low vision, do image isn't something that you

S4 (14:40):
need to worry about? Yeah, I think some people assume
that if you're not visually oriented, if you don't have vision,
then you don't need to adhere to the rules that
are visual world mice down. But it's actually the opposite.
I would assume that given that the world is set
up for sighted people in order for vision impaired people

(15:02):
to participate, to have friends and to have jobs and
polite interactions in society, we have to learn about the
visual norms, even though we don't have access to that
visual information and we have to do our best to
meet them in the social model of disability is something
that tells us that because we're different from the norm,

(15:22):
it is harder to learn and to participate in a
visual world because it's not set up to operate in
the way that works for us. So we have to
read a lot. We have to listen a lot, we
have to develop work arounds and that can be exhausting.
Andy started Exchange is one way, really because we're under
the guise of others, but we're not necessarily able to
see them ourselves.

S2 (15:44):
Yeah, and particularly over the last year or so, many
of us have kind of been the subject of prolonged
visual exposure through Zoom meetings and various online get togethers.
And there's that little box in the corner and feel
sighted or not sighted. There's still that sense that your
face is very much on display, and there's obviously the
option to turn off your video, but I guess that

(16:05):
in itself sends a message. What's your take on this?

S4 (16:08):
Yeah, I think being watched by others is draining for anyone,
but at the very least sighted person has the opportunity
to watch others. So it's a two way exchange, but
it's a particular kind of relationship that a blind person
enters into understanding that they need to participate in the
visual world, but sometimes wouldn't mind a bit of a
reprieve from that. And so turning off the camera is

(16:31):
an opportunity to focus in on the sense that we
need to rely on because we don't have patients who
are hearing and to not feel like we also then
need to perform visually at the same time.

S2 (16:43):
Tess, how about you over the last year or so?
Are you a video on girl or video of?

S4 (16:47):
Well, it

S3 (16:48):
really does depend it from a professional. You know, when
I'm when I'm in work meetings, I often prefer to
have my video off unless they particularly request it. I
guess partly because it makes the internet wobbly of videos
on sometimes, but also because because I just I do
feel a little bit less self-conscious about what I'm wearing,

(17:10):
where I'm sitting. I don't know what anybody else is,
you know, is doing, you know, whether they're all sort
of dressed up in skirts and tops and whether I
need to be or so. I do prefer to have
the video off when I'm in a work meeting. But
in a social meeting with friends, I often prefer to
have the video on. Although I do, I feel I
do feel sad that I can't see them. I mean,

(17:31):
because I've so much missed that physical contact with friends
being able to give them a hug or hold their
arm or whatever. But I'd love to be able to
see them, but I do feel a bit more comforted
that they at least can see me when I'm on
Zoom and that that's what makes it a bit or
face time. And that's what makes it a bit different
and special. Rather than just talking on the phone that
they can actually see me, they can see a little

(17:51):
bit into my house. They can see a little bit
more into. I live, so it does vary, but certainly
at work, I feel very self-conscious.

S2 (17:58):
Courtney, what about you video or video

S4 (18:00):
of I tend to be a video off person if
I consider it to be within the realm of polite exchange.
I do get asked pointedly to turn it on sometimes,
and then I'll usually be comfortable to do that. That said,
there are sometimes some technical barriers to me doing that
because I've got a screen up in front of my face,
so I then have to sacrifice being able to orient

(18:22):
to what I can orient through on the screen by
pushing that away. And just being there to be seen
by others.

S2 (18:30):
There's been some really interesting thinking around body positivity and
celebrating all body shapes and more recently took of body neutrality.
So rather than aiming to love your body, which can
be really tough for many of us, the less challenging
aspiration to become less emotionally influenced by how your body
look if you're struggling with body image, what are some
things that you can do to develop and maintain a

(18:52):
healthy body image?

S4 (18:53):
Start listening to your body. Do what's loving in response
to what you hear. We've got to meet our physical
needs through sleep and through movement that we enjoy and
through responding to our genuine hunger and what we need
to do, especially if we've been experiencing the challenges of
an eating disorder is we've got to stop imposing what

(19:16):
we think things should be and listen to what actually
is what our body is really telling us. And mindfulness
as a lot of really useful strategies for this, or
if you want to keep it super simple, you can
just pause and breathe and involve your breathing. Be aware
of what's going on. The second thing is to nurture
yourself emotionally. It's as you've just said poly, or it

(19:39):
only natural to feel conflicted about your body. Yeah, we
want to love our body. We want to appreciate it
and feel grateful for it. But sometimes we also feel
compelled to change it to match the expectations of what
we think the outside world requires of us. So we've
got to figure out some ways to get on good
hands with the difference between what we actually are and

(20:00):
what the external ideal is without punishing ourselves or hiding away.
And some of the things that we can do, there
are things like self-compassion, or we can simply show mercy
to ourself. That's another way of thinking about it, because
a lot of the things that we say about ourselves,
like what is articulated to us, we would never dream
to say to another person because they're so incredibly cruel

(20:22):
that

S2 (20:23):
some of the sorry to jump in quarterly. But somehow
some of the words tests that you were using were
really strong and I don't think be another person in
the world that you'd say that to. And yet you
were saying about yourself.

S4 (20:34):
And I think one of the things that Test was
able to say on the flip side and and show
us that, you know, when she became a healthier person
is how grateful she is for how beautiful her body
is and to learn to really appreciate it's a gratitude
is another thing that's very important. I would say that
in this emotional nurturing space, you're also looking for social

(20:56):
connections and test, as also mentioned, where she's able to
connect with others via telehealth via video conference. Because that
gives us validation of our feelings and we're able to
regulate so we're able to feel together in connection with
another person. And then the third thing that we need
to do is embrace the fact that everyone is different.

(21:18):
That's the reality, everyone. Everybody is different and that's a
good thing.

S2 (21:22):
Thank you both so much. Test for sharing your own
experience and Kourtney for coming with such compassion and really
practical steps about what you can do to to develop
and maintain that healthy body image. Thank you so much.

S4 (21:34):
Thanks for having me, guys.

S1 (21:37):
You're listening to nothing's off limits. We're Tess and Polly,
did you know, Vision Australia partners with the Melbourne Fashion
Festival to make its runways accessible through audio description. But
more information go to Vision Australia dot org or call
one eight four seven four double six. Vision Australia Blindness

(21:58):
Low Vision Opportunity.

S2 (21:59):
Our next guest is Samantha Hardy. Samantha is one of
the

S3 (22:03):
voices you might hear if you called Vision Australia as
a Service Connect officer. Samantha plays a vital role connecting
people with support services. Samantha herself has low vision and
is a sometime cane user. How important is appearance to you, Samantha?

S4 (22:18):
I'd have to say it is quite important to me.
I'm quite passionate about fashion than clothing in general. I
still find people tend to expect people that are blind
or visually impaired to look sort of badly dressed and
maybe a bit sort of downtrodden and not quite sort
of fishing in to the world or with other people.

(22:38):
And I really like to buck that trend. I really
like to express myself in a way that shows that
I'm confident and getting on with my life. Clothing can
be a really powerful tool so that it's almost like
a shorthand for telling people in the world who you are.
People do tend to sort of make very quick judgments

(22:59):
about who you are by your appearance. You know,

S3 (23:01):
some people and I certainly usually one of them might say, Oh,
I'm just not interested in fashion. I mean, it's just fashion,
you know, comfort over fashion and all that. The appearance
really goes deeper than fashion, doesn't it?

S4 (23:13):
It sort of speaks to who you are in the
world and how you want to express yourself. And I
certainly get that for some people, particularly since they have
low vision, the clothing might not be important to them.
And I'm certainly not saying that it should be. I'm
just sort of expressing my own feelings about it. When
I first started using a cane, I went for quite

(23:33):
a while, was listening to this one because it just
felt really confronting. And eventually I accepted that it was
going to be really useful to help me to get
around independently and do the things I wanted to do.
So I learned how to use a cane, and I
started using one. And when I first started using it,
the experience was incredibly intense. It was like people's reactions
were really quite extreme. And on the one hand, I

(23:56):
was super visible in the community, but also at the
same time, I became completely invisible. It's like people only
saw a blind person with a cane, and they no
longer saw me at all. And I got on a
train with my time and still sort of dealing with
people's reactions. And then I was sitting in the train
and this man got on like a stop after me.

(24:16):
Absolutely fabulous looking like well-dressed, confident looking man in a
suit and a briefcase. He happened to be using the cane.
I remember thinking, Yes, no one is going to be
looking at that man thinking, Oh, that's so sad that
man's blind, and they're just going to be thinking, Oh,

(24:37):
this very confident, attractive man who obviously has a vision
impairment is using the cane. And I remember thinking, that's
how I want to be in the world. So do
you feel like

S3 (24:48):
when you before you are using your cane people, approached
you in a very different way to to when it
sounds like there was a real change in the way
people perceived you just because you were holding the cane?

S4 (24:58):
There is, and there is still and there was, and
I've spoken to lots of other people who experienced something
quite similar to that. It can be can be really
extreme people's reactions. And I'm not completely blind, whatever that,
whatever that might be. But I have some. I have
some vision, so I use the cane because I can't
tell distances or depth or I don't see any details.

(25:20):
So it helps me, helps to keep me safe. But
I actually have still part of the time. See people's
reactions to Cane. I can see them hesitating. I can
see them doing weird things with it, and I can
see them staring at me. I get Botox. I'm using
the cane. But then I also I'm aware of people's
reactions to it.

S3 (25:38):
So how do we go about finding out what the
visual norms are, whether or not we we follow or
defy them?

S4 (25:44):
I guess I'm only aware of some visual norms and
sorts of things. I'm aware that I'm probably missing like
eye contact and things like that. But what I've done
is enlisted the help of some of my trusted family
and friends just to kind of give me a bit
of guidance when I need it so that I can
sort of I guess for me, it's a simplified version.

(26:05):
I don't take too many crazy risks because I don't
really can't really see what I'm wearing that well, but
just to help me to feel like I'm dressing well
in the world.

S3 (26:16):
Are there ways in which we can use our appearance
and demeanor to give the impression of being confident, more
confident that we perhaps are?

S4 (26:25):
I think I learnt from another friend of mine who's
he's a cane user. I was finding that I was
having a lot of trouble using my came, as I've
already mentioned, and when I went out with and. Using mine,
and she is just so incredibly confident, almost aggressive, it's OK,
she's very lovely and so you could never describe her

(26:45):
as aggressive but just super confident, and I find that
people react really differently to cover up. There's a woman
on a mission, really doesn't need any help. I'll just
get out of her way. And I found I find
that that really works for her. And I actually there's
a lot by being out with her and observing what
she does and how she moves in the world. Samantha,
it's been

S3 (27:04):
such a pleasure chatting with you today. Thanks for joining us. Remember,
you can download Nothing's Off Limits via the Vision Australia
website at Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot org.
Just search for nothing's off limits into the search engine,
and you'll be directed to a web page where you
can view this episode and earlier episodes, and please make
sure you subscribe so you don't miss any. Also, you

(27:25):
can tune in via Virgin Australia Radio. We've gathered up
all the contact details of the organisations mentioned in this
episode and put them on the Vision Australia website. You
can also find there a great webinar with Chloe Norton
from the Melbourne Fashion Festival about how we can find
and dress to our style.

S1 (27:49):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant,
learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting V.J. Radio,
dot org and access all there is to know about
our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia

(28:09):
dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode,
but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support,
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