May 11, 2021 • 28 mins
Welcome to our new podcast series Nothing’s Off Limits: bringing together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid but absolutely need to talk about.
In this episode Polly and Tess discuss Confidence and Safety through body language and movement and what it feels like navigating different physical and social environments when you are blind or have low vision. We delve into strategies, tips and technology solutions which can support interaction with people and places with confidence and safety.
We are joined by Equality Lawyers Founder and Principal Lawyer Natalie Wade, Vision Australia Emotional and Social Support Programs Supervisor Nemoy Malcom and Vision Australia Orientation & Mobility Specialist Darren Moyle.
Nothings off Limits is made with the support of Vision Australia Radio and the NDIS Information Linkages Capability Building grant.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:03):
Nothing's off limits. It's off limits, bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid but absolutely need to talk about. Made with
the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages
Capability Building Grant Building Grant.
S2 (00:23):
Hello and welcome to our second episode of our series
where nothing is off limits. My name is Tess and
together with my co-host Polly over the next 10 episodes,
will be exploring some of those topics which we might
usually consider off limits and discussing them openly, honestly through
that specific lens of blindness and location.
S3 (00:43):
In this episode, we are talking about confidence and safety
through body language and movement, what it feels like navigating
different physical and social environments with new blind or have
low vision. And we're going to delve into some strategies,
tips and technology solutions out there, which can really help
you interact with people and places with confidence and safety.
(01:03):
Whilst we were researching for the series. We heard from
some of you about how being blind or having low
vision can impact how confident you feel getting out and
about and connecting with people. And we also heard concerns
about how to stay safe and reduce actual and perceived vulnerability.
What was really interesting was that these questions were not
only in relation to more typical orientation and mobility skills,
(01:26):
but also around how to understand and master the elusive
arts of body language. How to hold a move your
body in a way that accurately expresses your intent. Body
language or non-verbal communication could encompass facial expressions, posture, gestures,
points of contact, physical proximity and even breathing. And I
find out about the so-called seven percent rule, which says
(01:48):
when we're communicating, seven percent of what is communicated is
via what is said. 38 percent is via tone of voice,
and the majority 55 percent is via body language text
that seems an extraordinarily high percentage. Does that
S2 (02:02):
surprise you? Well, I'm not sure that it does poorly
if you're not used to communicating in other ways. I
think people do find it very easy to communicate through
body language. But of course, that's not so easy if
you're blind or have low vision because you don't necessarily
know how somebody feels like. They might say that they're comfortable,
or they might say that you should feel safe with them,
(02:23):
but their body language might be saying something else.
S3 (02:25):
That's right, and numerous messaging tells us that confident body
language is a key component of personal safety. And so testing,
I asked you, how safe do you feel when you
are out on your own? Oh, we got some really
interesting answers.
S1 (02:39):
Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. How safe
do you feel when you're on your own?
S4 (02:50):
I'm very lucky. I'm six foot four and have long,
gangly limbs, so I don't feel physically threatened very often.
I've only ever been run over once, and that was
by somebody on a bicycle who didn't know his lights
on at night. That hurt.
S5 (03:03):
Mostly, I feel very safe as an independent traveller. I've
got the tools I need to ensure that I remain
safe when I travel.
S1 (03:10):
I feel quite safe. I don't really have too many concerns.
Not for me personally. I've got enough vision that I
tend to do. I can.
S2 (03:20):
I feel pretty safe on my own. Generally speaking, always aware.
But I, you know, make sure that I keep my
safety top of mind, but I don't feel unsafe.
S6 (03:33):
I feel safe when I'm on my own, depending on
where I am, when I'm on my own.
S7 (03:38):
I feel relatively okay because I have a dog God,
and my dog does alert me to, you know, strangers
and odd sort of noises and things.
S3 (03:48):
I've never actually found this challenging. I actually really like
my own company. I spend a lot of
S2 (03:53):
time on my own. The only time this would be
challenging would be back to the mobility one. When I
when I'm lost somewhere, I'm finding it really challenging to
find my way somewhere or if I'm in a new environment,
can sometimes feel really overwhelming and it can feel a
bit unsafe.
S1 (04:09):
You're listening to nothing's off limits with TESS and poorly
produced by Vision Australia radio.
S2 (04:15):
I'd now like to welcome our first guest for this episode,
who has some useful insights about staying safe in the home.
Natalie Wade is the founder and principal lawyer at Equality
Lawyers ACM, which is relatively unique in Australia, being set
up by people with disabilities for people with disabilities. And Natalie,
thank you for being here. It's wonderful to chat, to
say
S5 (04:35):
thank you for having me. Probably interests and pleasure to
be here.
S2 (04:38):
Have you noticed a sense of vulnerability around people being
safe in their homes?
S5 (04:43):
Certainly in the high instalment, we often associate and pain
and on issues that the safest place a person can
make is at home. But we know, and particularly in
the last year or sorry, in Australia, we've been having
a very serious conversation within the. It's not an ingenuity
(05:04):
about what is it to be safe at home and
if we die to recycle home, what do we do?
S2 (05:11):
What particular legal rights should people be
S5 (05:14):
aware of in Australia? There are a number of laws
that protect our people and to be safe at home
and generally the criminal law. Of course, if if someone
breaks into your house, then you should absolutely retain the
police and get someone out there to sort that out.
(05:36):
If you are at home and if your family members
is abusive to you, then you have specific laws that
address family and domestic violence. But what is unique for
people with disabilities from living in their homes is often
there are other people in their home that provide them
(05:58):
with support and care that they need to get about
their everyday life and then can present some risk and
require other rules to protect them in those situations. So
for people who are receiving the NDIS, the National Disability
Insurance Scheme, there are specific laws that regulate the people
(06:22):
of the country to provide care in the home. And
if those people do something bad that may be violent,
it may be abusive and it may simply be disrespectful.
And not acknowledging your right at home can make choices
(06:43):
to be safe and comfortable, then people with disabilities are
able to reach out to the National Disability Insurance Scheme.
Quality and Safeguards Commission Quality and Safeguards Commission is there
to ensure that people who provide support in the home
(07:04):
and can people with disabilities steady and safe people to
be around?
S2 (07:10):
What are some other proactive steps that people can take
to stay safe in their
S5 (07:15):
homes, damaged in a particular and groundbreaking? If are observing
a disability and you have concerns about how to be safe?
I think it's really important for you to think about
how are you on set? What are the risks that
(07:37):
are facing you and how can you manage those? So
for people who are blind or how do I envision
them to be something as simple as needing to know
who is in the front door sort? So having a
system in place using assistive technology or being very old school,
(07:57):
such as an intercom system where the person at the
front door can tell you that the lady who they
are as opposed to simply ringing a doorbell if they
direct your outdoor barriers and then having an intercom system
where you're able to speak to the person who is
(08:18):
at the front door and can be really valuable over
three hours. And if you had people in your home
that did there in a professional capacity, for example, support
workers or allied health professionals visit you on a regular basis,
you should have a really clear set of ground rules
about what you need to make sure that you feel
(08:41):
safe in the home. Again, this is to me very
unique to your only experience experiencing disability, and it may
not be a set of ground rules, but I saw
it in person Ron Howard or a minor on the
set of ground rules and then other people that are
blind and vision impairments would have it can be as
urinated to you as you need it to be, and
(09:04):
that a set of problems might include as clothes announce
yourself when you walk into the room. So say your
name when you come into any room, the bedroom, the
bathroom in the front door, whatever it may be that
you don't feel comfortable with people being in a certain
(09:25):
space with you. You know, perhaps I don't want to
sound like a public health officer, but I would probably
prefer a range of you, and no hands would probably
be concerned because you find that to be overwhelming or
you find it to be instructive to how you get around.
And so you should make it really clear to those
(09:48):
who work with you as to what you need to know.
And then changing this on the ground can be communicated
in a very old school fashion, writing, you know, in
paper and pen. You lied to me. Not inclined to
me cry that in 1998, and you relied on me
(10:08):
a little bit more modern, you could imagine a story
to the paper that are responsible for your care, what
you're you to have it ready on my rostering system
that you use electronically to manage your staff so that
they are rare when they're working with you. What is required, sir?
(10:29):
I think it probably speaks a little bit to regular visitors.
And also people to your mind of its great friends
in the heart and the third group of people that
you might want to consider. How is your family and
their loved ones? Now, I would love to say that
they don't need 80 years my age, and they are
(10:50):
all magical and older. I mean, enjoy. Absolutely. Sure. Then
that is, for the most part, very true. But I
want to acknowledge that there are people with disabilities, disproportionately
their friends, family and domestic violence. And I really rely
on those people to know that if you are in
(11:12):
that situation, if you are facing violence, abuse or neglect
at home, then I would strongly encourage you to reach
out to a trusted friend or someone outside of the
home to call a domestic violence or family violence hotline
and really make sure that you have the support of
(11:35):
others to deal with that and that you know that
you are not alone.
S3 (11:39):
What's particularly exciting is that Natalie has agreed to come
back and expand on some of the topics we talked
about just touched on there around those relationships in the home,
with your family and with your carers. So I'm really
looking forward to getting into some more details about that
with you. Then, Natalie, thank you so much.
S5 (11:54):
My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (11:57):
If this program has brought up any issues for you,
please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or online at
Lifeline dot org dot Donahue. The suicide call back service
is one 300 six five nine four six seven or
online at Suicide Call Back Service dot org. Today you
there's beyondblue 1300 double two four six three six and
(12:22):
online and beyond blue dot org.
S6 (12:25):
Today you.
S1 (12:28):
You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits with Tess and Polly.
Did you know Vision Australia's orientation and mobility specialists can
support you to move around safely and confidently? For more information,
go to Vision Australia dot org or call us on
one 300 eight four seven four W6 Vision Australia Blindness
(12:49):
Low Vision Opportunity.
S2 (12:51):
Our next guest is Namoi. Malcolm Namoi is Vision Australia's
emotional and social support program supervisor. He is also an
advocate of the importance of understanding and using body language
and other non explicit, subtle social clues as a way
to connect. And he's a keen student in understanding and
(13:12):
using your voice and your body to engage with confidence.
Namoi Thanks for being here.
S6 (13:17):
My pleasure and thanks for having me.
S2 (13:18):
In researching for this episode, we heard listeners talk about
how losing their sight can lead to a loss of
confidence and an increase in self-consciousness. Is this something you've
experienced now?
S6 (13:30):
I did experience it when I originally lost my sight
back in 1998 as someone who was at that time
18 years old trying to find himself as an adult.
So I did have that whole sense of what is
my body doing in space? How am I being perceived
by those around me and how do I want to
be perceived?
S2 (13:51):
How did you regain that confidence?
S6 (13:53):
Part of regaining that confidence was actually using my body,
so I, before I lost my sight, was practising martial arts,
and I went back to martial arts after I lost
my sight. And it really forced me to continue to
use and test my body to continue to use and
test my balance by jumping my rolling, my kicking and punching.
(14:15):
I was very physically active, and that really helped me
to understand myself relative to the space around me. It
also helps me to feel confident in my movement.
S2 (14:26):
That's a fantastic way of dealing with that. I think
so many people have all sorts of creative ways of
getting that confidence back and getting that at confidence, particularly
in their body. We did some surveys, and one listener
shared that as their design had deteriorated, they had begun
to feel more self-conscious. Now just read this. I worried
that people would see a person who was blind when
(14:49):
I walked by and not the capable person I know
I am normally. What strategies would you suggest for for
coping with those fears of the impression that we make?
S6 (14:59):
Because you're blind, it doesn't make you any less confident.
I don't see separating the two. You're still a person,
you just happened to be blind. So how does a
person move through their environment with confidence? How do they
predict confidence when moving through their environment? Well, part of
that is about looking ahead, looking forward. Even when you
(15:21):
feel a lost, you still look forward, you still walk
with a purpose. Part of that is also about using
your mobility aids and your skills when traveling, whether it's
making sure that you're moving in step with your cane
or whether it's trying to stay relaxed. And at least
if you're using a service dog, or if you're someone
who has low vision and is using your hat or
(15:44):
your glasses. It's just about wearing those things and really
feeling like you're using all of your aids and equipment
to your advantage. That's really where confidence comes from. Confidence
comes from inside first. So if you're telling yourself that
you're not confident in what you're doing, then people around
you are going to think that you're not confident in
(16:04):
what you're doing. Let's be clear, as a person with
no vision myself, there are accidents. There are times when
I apologize to Poles. There are times when I misstep
and stumble. There are times when my step in front
of a car that is just about to accelerate, so
I have to quickly snap back. These things are things
(16:25):
that happen to sighted people, to people who are fully sighted,
fully able bodied. They might be looking down at their
phone rather than looking at the lights, which might cause
them to step in front of a vehicle. Sighted people
bump into other people or bump into poles. They just
don't apologize when they do so. People aren't necessarily watching
(16:45):
me do my thing, and if they are, well, that's
just because I look good.
S3 (16:52):
That's great. And I should disclose as a sighted person,
that's absolutely right. Whether you're glued to your phone or
just in a daydream, you walk in to things, you
stumble into people and polls, Nimoy as well. And I
remember I'm going to a dinner once and sitting next
to a young woman who was blind, and I reached
across the table and managed to knock over a jug
of water that went all over the kind of the
(17:13):
guest of honor. And after, you know, I apologized and
got all flustered when I sat down, she said. I'm
so relieved to hear that sighted people
S2 (17:19):
do that as well. We absolutely terrible spilling wines the worst,
at least. Definitely the stains. And I'm with you. I
apologize falls as well. It sounds very much like those
basic orientation or ability skills that we, I suppose when
we lose our vision, we learn. We learned fairly quickly.
It sounds like those basic skills are so very important.
(17:41):
Is that right?
S6 (17:42):
That's absolutely right. I think that practice doesn't make perfect.
It just makes better. So the more that you are
willing to use your orientation and mobility skills better off
you will be when
S2 (17:56):
you're speaking with people, particularly perhaps for the first time.
How do you give that right vibe so that so
that you can interact on your own terms and remain
in control of your body, so not get dragged across
the road?
S6 (18:08):
We have well-meaning people in the world, and those well-meaning
people will see me as a person with a disability
and think that he must need help. He must need saving.
Despite my best efforts to move with confidence, to move
with grace, to move with purpose, people may still feel
like they need to be my hero. So for me,
(18:30):
it's less about stopping people from doing it and being
conscious and ready to react when people do grab me.
When people do enter my space unwanted. One of the
techniques that I tend to use is simply to stop.
And it doesn't matter where I am. If someone enters
my space, if they reach in and they grab me.
(18:51):
I just stop. I stop and I turn my full
attention on them. I will verbally ask them to let
me go. I'm verbally ask them to remove themselves from me.
I will verbally let them know that I'm confident that
I am in control. I know what I'm doing if
they can't speak English or if they don't understand me.
The simple fact that I have stopped is enough to
(19:12):
alert them that what they're doing is unwanted. And if
I need to our physically remove their hand from my
person or from my backpack or from my pain, and
they will get the point that I'm not going with them.
I use this technique even when I'm boarding a train
or getting off of a train or bus. If one
foot's on the platform and the other foot's on the train,
(19:34):
I will just stop and I won't move until they
let me go. And I will use verbal cues, but
I also use that non-verbal. I'm not moving until you
release me to. And most people get the hint fairly quickly.
S3 (19:49):
Nimoy, thank you so much. Some really amazing strategies and
insights you've got there around how to maintain that physical
agency and confidence. Thank you so much for sharing. We
could talk for much longer, but thank you for coming on.
S6 (20:01):
My pleasure. Thanks for listening.
S3 (20:03):
Our final guest is Darren Moyle Difference in Orientation and
mobility specialist at Vision Australia. Darren, thank you so much
for joining us.
S8 (20:10):
Now, Ari, it's good to be here. Can you
S3 (20:12):
maybe start by telling us what's an orientation to mobility
or an especialistas specialist does and why you're so passionate
about it as a career?
S8 (20:18):
Orientation mobility, in a sense, is quite broad, but basically,
if you to look at any of the textbooks would
say it's teaching, someone who is blind has a vision
to get from point A to point B safely and effectively.
But really, when people ask me what my job is,
I explain to people that I teach people who are
blind have a vision to solve everyday problems so they
can navigate their world and participate in their community or
(20:39):
participate in activities as they would wish to leave that
loss that they choose. And being able to move around
your world is a key component of that. Whether it's
sort of a physical setting or even navigate social settings
gives people the freedom to be able to head out
and catch up with friends or join local sporting clubs,
or be able to attain work and move around the
place and be a confident traveler.
S3 (21:00):
Darren, you've kindly agreed to share some strategies that can
help in tackling some of the kind of the typically
tricky and daunting scenarios. And I guess I'm thinking in
particular about navigating completely new environments or using public transport
and meeting up at cafes and bars and restaurants.
S8 (21:15):
You know, there are a lot of challenges around that.
So a big part of that would be that having
the mobility skills, so you know, we probably are familiar with,
you know, people who use mobility. I like a long
cane or an ID cane, as well as electronic aids
that might help people travel so that use sonar or
other technology that we use on our on our smartphone,
which we'll get into later. But a lot of the
(21:35):
work that we do is to be able to provide
people with skills so they can navigate these sort of
complex areas. So when you're waiting for a bus and
you have three different bus routes to go through the
one stop, how do you have the skills to ask
the driver, is this the correct bus? Can I use
that for a talk? There's an app or some sort
of technology to know, Is this my bus? So I'm
not making it, so I'm not getting on the wrong
one and heading off the opposite direction, heading into cafes
(21:58):
and things that those kind of indoor environments and whether
it's a cafe or a classroom at a school or
a new lecture theatre teaching people to be able to
walk into that space and trying to grab some information
immediately about it. You know, how big is the room,
whether we're using our vision, our remaining vision as a
sense to be able to get that information or, you know,
using sound echolocation so that the sound that you know,
(22:19):
people who are blind to have a vision, some people
have the ability, said he sounds bounce off walls and
that gives gives an accurate description of kind of how
big the room might be or how dense it might
be with furniture. The way now to get this information
at the start is really useful. And then also having
the skills to be able to try and navigate that
space and try and discover that area for yourself. So
how big is it and what's the perimeter like? You
know where the table's laid out in this cafe and
(22:41):
where is the counter? Where do I order my coffee from?
And once I've ordered my my latte with one sugar,
where do I go and stand and collect the coffee? And.
And sometimes sometimes that is where an orientation my mobility
specialist might come in to provide that extra layer of
information that sometimes is visual to be able to give
people that little bit extra information that they might need
(23:01):
to get, feel free and confident to walk into that
space and know that they can. They know sort of
the social cues and they know the social environment that
they're walking into. Now I'm an orientation of my mobility specialist,
but I also have low vision, so that's probably a
big part of why I'm so passionate about the role
as well, because I live it every day.
S3 (23:17):
I know you're really passionate about more high-tech options. I
think you can introduce us to three apps which have
really kind of revolutionized mobility for the community.
S8 (23:25):
One of my top picks of my favorite apps is
an app called Microsoft Soundscape. What this is, this is
an app that uses 3D audio. So if you're using
bone conducting headphones so you have some headphones in your ears,
imagine you going to a brand new place. You know
you've gone to the Gold Coast for the weekend. Lovely.
You could. Yeah, you can turn this app on walking
with soundscape. With this three day directional sand, I can
(23:46):
hear that there's an idea directly off to my left
and I can hear that there's a McDonald's up ahead
of me. I can hear about the names of the
brains that I'm passing. So kind of provides a greater
level of orientation so you can feel more confident navigating
these spaces.
S3 (24:00):
Is there anything else out there? Maybe if you're kind
of going on some public transport, I know that can
be quite challenging.
S8 (24:05):
If you're an author and user next year. If you're
an Android user, you could use an app called Transit.
But essentially what this does at the bus stop your app,
you can open it up and pinpoint your location using GPS.
You can choose the bus stop you're standing at with
voiceover as well, and you find you can get a
call out of live information about how far away buses. So,
for example, you might have united. Two three, three draw
(24:26):
in two minutes is seven to seven doing four minutes
and then the nine three nine during eight minutes. I
know it's the third bus that I need to catch.
Can I think
S3 (24:34):
you have one more for us
S8 (24:35):
down? There is another app and this is an app
called Aara. This app is really great. I serve refrigerators.
Get out of jail card. Kind of a way that
you have access to some visual information from someone who's
fully trained. They're sitting behind the computer in the USA
so they can see your current location. And I can
also see what you're saying. Of the camera so people
(24:56):
can use this app to ask, I'm a bit disorientated.
Can you show me where my nearest bus stop is
or I'm in an airport and I need to work
at where the check-in guides? And by simply opening the
app and pressing the call button, someone's on the other line.
And I can see I've used this in Sydney Airport
before our agent brings up the interior map. Just, yep,
keep going straight ahead. All this some signs on the left.
(25:18):
In Japan, you find the left. There's a sign saying
checking area straight ahead. Keep on going. So they can
kind of give you this extra layer of visual information
that in the past, you know, we just didn't have
access to our which is a paid up. But also
there's other options. You know, there's a free app called
Be My Eyes is a similar thing where you're talking
directly to volunteers. You also have the option of just
using face time or using your smartphone camera and calling
(25:40):
a friend and saying, Hey, you know, a bit lost.
Can you tell me, is they're crossing me here? Or
When is a taxi? Or can you read this document
for me? So using technology and using cameras and things
like that is making a huge difference.
S3 (25:51):
Darren, thank you so much. That was so interesting and
some really helpful strategies as well. Thank you for joining us.
S8 (25:57):
All right, guys, it's a pleasure.
S2 (25:58):
Well, this is just the start of the conversation about
staying safe inside and outside of your home. And if
you want to find out more about the orientation and mobility,
skills training or some of the amazing community groups that
Nimoy runs. You can find that information on the Vision
Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot org. That's
(26:20):
Vision Australia dot org. And remember, you can also download
this podcast from the Vision Australia website, this episode and
previous episodes. The website also has some links to useful
resources and information, including some of the apps that Darren mentioned.
S3 (26:37):
And next time we're going to be talking about mental health,
but for now, thank you to all of our guests
and thank you for joining us for the show where
nothing's off limits.
S1 (26:51):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages Capability Building grants,
learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
VOA Radio, dot org and access all there is to
know about our range of client services via our website.
Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in
(27:14):
this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely
on your support, so please share this podcast with just
one person today and bright announce or greet us on
your preferred podcast platform. Bye for now. If this program
has brought up any issues for you, please contact Lifeline
(27:35):
on 13, 11, 14 or online at Lifeline dot org
dot IU. The suicide callback service is one 300 six
five nine four six seven or online at Suicide Callback
Service dot org. Today you there's beyondblue 1300 double two
four six three six and online and beyond blue dot org.
(27:59):
Today you.
Nothing's off limits. It's off limits, bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid but absolutely need to talk about. Made with
the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages
Capability Building Grant Building Grant.
S2 (00:23):
Hello and welcome to our second episode of our series
where nothing is off limits. My name is Tess and
together with my co-host Polly over the next 10 episodes,
will be exploring some of those topics which we might
usually consider off limits and discussing them openly, honestly through
that specific lens of blindness and location.
S3 (00:43):
In this episode, we are talking about confidence and safety
through body language and movement, what it feels like navigating
different physical and social environments with new blind or have
low vision. And we're going to delve into some strategies,
tips and technology solutions out there, which can really help
you interact with people and places with confidence and safety.
(01:03):
Whilst we were researching for the series. We heard from
some of you about how being blind or having low
vision can impact how confident you feel getting out and
about and connecting with people. And we also heard concerns
about how to stay safe and reduce actual and perceived vulnerability.
What was really interesting was that these questions were not
only in relation to more typical orientation and mobility skills,
(01:26):
but also around how to understand and master the elusive
arts of body language. How to hold a move your
body in a way that accurately expresses your intent. Body
language or non-verbal communication could encompass facial expressions, posture, gestures,
points of contact, physical proximity and even breathing. And I
find out about the so-called seven percent rule, which says
(01:48):
when we're communicating, seven percent of what is communicated is
via what is said. 38 percent is via tone of voice,
and the majority 55 percent is via body language text
that seems an extraordinarily high percentage. Does that
S2 (02:02):
surprise you? Well, I'm not sure that it does poorly
if you're not used to communicating in other ways. I
think people do find it very easy to communicate through
body language. But of course, that's not so easy if
you're blind or have low vision because you don't necessarily
know how somebody feels like. They might say that they're comfortable,
or they might say that you should feel safe with them,
(02:23):
but their body language might be saying something else.
S3 (02:25):
That's right, and numerous messaging tells us that confident body
language is a key component of personal safety. And so testing,
I asked you, how safe do you feel when you
are out on your own? Oh, we got some really
interesting answers.
S1 (02:39):
Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. How safe
do you feel when you're on your own?
S4 (02:50):
I'm very lucky. I'm six foot four and have long,
gangly limbs, so I don't feel physically threatened very often.
I've only ever been run over once, and that was
by somebody on a bicycle who didn't know his lights
on at night. That hurt.
S5 (03:03):
Mostly, I feel very safe as an independent traveller. I've
got the tools I need to ensure that I remain
safe when I travel.
S1 (03:10):
I feel quite safe. I don't really have too many concerns.
Not for me personally. I've got enough vision that I
tend to do. I can.
S2 (03:20):
I feel pretty safe on my own. Generally speaking, always aware.
But I, you know, make sure that I keep my
safety top of mind, but I don't feel unsafe.
S6 (03:33):
I feel safe when I'm on my own, depending on
where I am, when I'm on my own.
S7 (03:38):
I feel relatively okay because I have a dog God,
and my dog does alert me to, you know, strangers
and odd sort of noises and things.
S3 (03:48):
I've never actually found this challenging. I actually really like
my own company. I spend a lot of
S2 (03:53):
time on my own. The only time this would be
challenging would be back to the mobility one. When I
when I'm lost somewhere, I'm finding it really challenging to
find my way somewhere or if I'm in a new environment,
can sometimes feel really overwhelming and it can feel a
bit unsafe.
S1 (04:09):
You're listening to nothing's off limits with TESS and poorly
produced by Vision Australia radio.
S2 (04:15):
I'd now like to welcome our first guest for this episode,
who has some useful insights about staying safe in the home.
Natalie Wade is the founder and principal lawyer at Equality
Lawyers ACM, which is relatively unique in Australia, being set
up by people with disabilities for people with disabilities. And Natalie,
thank you for being here. It's wonderful to chat, to
say
S5 (04:35):
thank you for having me. Probably interests and pleasure to
be here.
S2 (04:38):
Have you noticed a sense of vulnerability around people being
safe in their homes?
S5 (04:43):
Certainly in the high instalment, we often associate and pain
and on issues that the safest place a person can
make is at home. But we know, and particularly in
the last year or sorry, in Australia, we've been having
a very serious conversation within the. It's not an ingenuity
(05:04):
about what is it to be safe at home and
if we die to recycle home, what do we do?
S2 (05:11):
What particular legal rights should people be
S5 (05:14):
aware of in Australia? There are a number of laws
that protect our people and to be safe at home
and generally the criminal law. Of course, if if someone
breaks into your house, then you should absolutely retain the
police and get someone out there to sort that out.
(05:36):
If you are at home and if your family members
is abusive to you, then you have specific laws that
address family and domestic violence. But what is unique for
people with disabilities from living in their homes is often
there are other people in their home that provide them
(05:58):
with support and care that they need to get about
their everyday life and then can present some risk and
require other rules to protect them in those situations. So
for people who are receiving the NDIS, the National Disability
Insurance Scheme, there are specific laws that regulate the people
(06:22):
of the country to provide care in the home. And
if those people do something bad that may be violent,
it may be abusive and it may simply be disrespectful.
And not acknowledging your right at home can make choices
(06:43):
to be safe and comfortable, then people with disabilities are
able to reach out to the National Disability Insurance Scheme.
Quality and Safeguards Commission Quality and Safeguards Commission is there
to ensure that people who provide support in the home
(07:04):
and can people with disabilities steady and safe people to
be around?
S2 (07:10):
What are some other proactive steps that people can take
to stay safe in their
S5 (07:15):
homes, damaged in a particular and groundbreaking? If are observing
a disability and you have concerns about how to be safe?
I think it's really important for you to think about
how are you on set? What are the risks that
(07:37):
are facing you and how can you manage those? So
for people who are blind or how do I envision
them to be something as simple as needing to know
who is in the front door sort? So having a
system in place using assistive technology or being very old school,
(07:57):
such as an intercom system where the person at the
front door can tell you that the lady who they
are as opposed to simply ringing a doorbell if they
direct your outdoor barriers and then having an intercom system
where you're able to speak to the person who is
(08:18):
at the front door and can be really valuable over
three hours. And if you had people in your home
that did there in a professional capacity, for example, support
workers or allied health professionals visit you on a regular basis,
you should have a really clear set of ground rules
about what you need to make sure that you feel
(08:41):
safe in the home. Again, this is to me very
unique to your only experience experiencing disability, and it may
not be a set of ground rules, but I saw
it in person Ron Howard or a minor on the
set of ground rules and then other people that are
blind and vision impairments would have it can be as
urinated to you as you need it to be, and
(09:04):
that a set of problems might include as clothes announce
yourself when you walk into the room. So say your
name when you come into any room, the bedroom, the
bathroom in the front door, whatever it may be that
you don't feel comfortable with people being in a certain
(09:25):
space with you. You know, perhaps I don't want to
sound like a public health officer, but I would probably
prefer a range of you, and no hands would probably
be concerned because you find that to be overwhelming or
you find it to be instructive to how you get around.
And so you should make it really clear to those
(09:48):
who work with you as to what you need to know.
And then changing this on the ground can be communicated
in a very old school fashion, writing, you know, in
paper and pen. You lied to me. Not inclined to
me cry that in 1998, and you relied on me
(10:08):
a little bit more modern, you could imagine a story
to the paper that are responsible for your care, what
you're you to have it ready on my rostering system
that you use electronically to manage your staff so that
they are rare when they're working with you. What is required, sir?
(10:29):
I think it probably speaks a little bit to regular visitors.
And also people to your mind of its great friends
in the heart and the third group of people that
you might want to consider. How is your family and
their loved ones? Now, I would love to say that
they don't need 80 years my age, and they are
(10:50):
all magical and older. I mean, enjoy. Absolutely. Sure. Then
that is, for the most part, very true. But I
want to acknowledge that there are people with disabilities, disproportionately
their friends, family and domestic violence. And I really rely
on those people to know that if you are in
(11:12):
that situation, if you are facing violence, abuse or neglect
at home, then I would strongly encourage you to reach
out to a trusted friend or someone outside of the
home to call a domestic violence or family violence hotline
and really make sure that you have the support of
(11:35):
others to deal with that and that you know that
you are not alone.
S3 (11:39):
What's particularly exciting is that Natalie has agreed to come
back and expand on some of the topics we talked
about just touched on there around those relationships in the home,
with your family and with your carers. So I'm really
looking forward to getting into some more details about that
with you. Then, Natalie, thank you so much.
S5 (11:54):
My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (11:57):
If this program has brought up any issues for you,
please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or online at
Lifeline dot org dot Donahue. The suicide call back service
is one 300 six five nine four six seven or
online at Suicide Call Back Service dot org. Today you
there's beyondblue 1300 double two four six three six and
(12:22):
online and beyond blue dot org.
S6 (12:25):
Today you.
S1 (12:28):
You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits with Tess and Polly.
Did you know Vision Australia's orientation and mobility specialists can
support you to move around safely and confidently? For more information,
go to Vision Australia dot org or call us on
one 300 eight four seven four W6 Vision Australia Blindness
(12:49):
Low Vision Opportunity.
S2 (12:51):
Our next guest is Namoi. Malcolm Namoi is Vision Australia's
emotional and social support program supervisor. He is also an
advocate of the importance of understanding and using body language
and other non explicit, subtle social clues as a way
to connect. And he's a keen student in understanding and
(13:12):
using your voice and your body to engage with confidence.
Namoi Thanks for being here.
S6 (13:17):
My pleasure and thanks for having me.
S2 (13:18):
In researching for this episode, we heard listeners talk about
how losing their sight can lead to a loss of
confidence and an increase in self-consciousness. Is this something you've
experienced now?
S6 (13:30):
I did experience it when I originally lost my sight
back in 1998 as someone who was at that time
18 years old trying to find himself as an adult.
So I did have that whole sense of what is
my body doing in space? How am I being perceived
by those around me and how do I want to
be perceived?
S2 (13:51):
How did you regain that confidence?
S6 (13:53):
Part of regaining that confidence was actually using my body,
so I, before I lost my sight, was practising martial arts,
and I went back to martial arts after I lost
my sight. And it really forced me to continue to
use and test my body to continue to use and
test my balance by jumping my rolling, my kicking and punching.
(14:15):
I was very physically active, and that really helped me
to understand myself relative to the space around me. It
also helps me to feel confident in my movement.
S2 (14:26):
That's a fantastic way of dealing with that. I think
so many people have all sorts of creative ways of
getting that confidence back and getting that at confidence, particularly
in their body. We did some surveys, and one listener
shared that as their design had deteriorated, they had begun
to feel more self-conscious. Now just read this. I worried
that people would see a person who was blind when
(14:49):
I walked by and not the capable person I know
I am normally. What strategies would you suggest for for
coping with those fears of the impression that we make?
S6 (14:59):
Because you're blind, it doesn't make you any less confident.
I don't see separating the two. You're still a person,
you just happened to be blind. So how does a
person move through their environment with confidence? How do they
predict confidence when moving through their environment? Well, part of
that is about looking ahead, looking forward. Even when you
(15:21):
feel a lost, you still look forward, you still walk
with a purpose. Part of that is also about using
your mobility aids and your skills when traveling, whether it's
making sure that you're moving in step with your cane
or whether it's trying to stay relaxed. And at least
if you're using a service dog, or if you're someone
who has low vision and is using your hat or
(15:44):
your glasses. It's just about wearing those things and really
feeling like you're using all of your aids and equipment
to your advantage. That's really where confidence comes from. Confidence
comes from inside first. So if you're telling yourself that
you're not confident in what you're doing, then people around
you are going to think that you're not confident in
(16:04):
what you're doing. Let's be clear, as a person with
no vision myself, there are accidents. There are times when
I apologize to Poles. There are times when I misstep
and stumble. There are times when my step in front
of a car that is just about to accelerate, so
I have to quickly snap back. These things are things
(16:25):
that happen to sighted people, to people who are fully sighted,
fully able bodied. They might be looking down at their
phone rather than looking at the lights, which might cause
them to step in front of a vehicle. Sighted people
bump into other people or bump into poles. They just
don't apologize when they do so. People aren't necessarily watching
(16:45):
me do my thing, and if they are, well, that's
just because I look good.
S3 (16:52):
That's great. And I should disclose as a sighted person,
that's absolutely right. Whether you're glued to your phone or
just in a daydream, you walk in to things, you
stumble into people and polls, Nimoy as well. And I
remember I'm going to a dinner once and sitting next
to a young woman who was blind, and I reached
across the table and managed to knock over a jug
of water that went all over the kind of the
(17:13):
guest of honor. And after, you know, I apologized and
got all flustered when I sat down, she said. I'm
so relieved to hear that sighted people
S2 (17:19):
do that as well. We absolutely terrible spilling wines the worst,
at least. Definitely the stains. And I'm with you. I
apologize falls as well. It sounds very much like those
basic orientation or ability skills that we, I suppose when
we lose our vision, we learn. We learned fairly quickly.
It sounds like those basic skills are so very important.
(17:41):
Is that right?
S6 (17:42):
That's absolutely right. I think that practice doesn't make perfect.
It just makes better. So the more that you are
willing to use your orientation and mobility skills better off
you will be when
S2 (17:56):
you're speaking with people, particularly perhaps for the first time.
How do you give that right vibe so that so
that you can interact on your own terms and remain
in control of your body, so not get dragged across
the road?
S6 (18:08):
We have well-meaning people in the world, and those well-meaning
people will see me as a person with a disability
and think that he must need help. He must need saving.
Despite my best efforts to move with confidence, to move
with grace, to move with purpose, people may still feel
like they need to be my hero. So for me,
(18:30):
it's less about stopping people from doing it and being
conscious and ready to react when people do grab me.
When people do enter my space unwanted. One of the
techniques that I tend to use is simply to stop.
And it doesn't matter where I am. If someone enters
my space, if they reach in and they grab me.
(18:51):
I just stop. I stop and I turn my full
attention on them. I will verbally ask them to let
me go. I'm verbally ask them to remove themselves from me.
I will verbally let them know that I'm confident that
I am in control. I know what I'm doing if
they can't speak English or if they don't understand me.
The simple fact that I have stopped is enough to
(19:12):
alert them that what they're doing is unwanted. And if
I need to our physically remove their hand from my
person or from my backpack or from my pain, and
they will get the point that I'm not going with them.
I use this technique even when I'm boarding a train
or getting off of a train or bus. If one
foot's on the platform and the other foot's on the train,
(19:34):
I will just stop and I won't move until they
let me go. And I will use verbal cues, but
I also use that non-verbal. I'm not moving until you
release me to. And most people get the hint fairly quickly.
S3 (19:49):
Nimoy, thank you so much. Some really amazing strategies and
insights you've got there around how to maintain that physical
agency and confidence. Thank you so much for sharing. We
could talk for much longer, but thank you for coming on.
S6 (20:01):
My pleasure. Thanks for listening.
S3 (20:03):
Our final guest is Darren Moyle Difference in Orientation and
mobility specialist at Vision Australia. Darren, thank you so much
for joining us.
S8 (20:10):
Now, Ari, it's good to be here. Can you
S3 (20:12):
maybe start by telling us what's an orientation to mobility
or an especialistas specialist does and why you're so passionate
about it as a career?
S8 (20:18):
Orientation mobility, in a sense, is quite broad, but basically,
if you to look at any of the textbooks would
say it's teaching, someone who is blind has a vision
to get from point A to point B safely and effectively.
But really, when people ask me what my job is,
I explain to people that I teach people who are
blind have a vision to solve everyday problems so they
can navigate their world and participate in their community or
(20:39):
participate in activities as they would wish to leave that
loss that they choose. And being able to move around
your world is a key component of that. Whether it's
sort of a physical setting or even navigate social settings
gives people the freedom to be able to head out
and catch up with friends or join local sporting clubs,
or be able to attain work and move around the
place and be a confident traveler.
S3 (21:00):
Darren, you've kindly agreed to share some strategies that can
help in tackling some of the kind of the typically
tricky and daunting scenarios. And I guess I'm thinking in
particular about navigating completely new environments or using public transport
and meeting up at cafes and bars and restaurants.
S8 (21:15):
You know, there are a lot of challenges around that.
So a big part of that would be that having
the mobility skills, so you know, we probably are familiar with,
you know, people who use mobility. I like a long
cane or an ID cane, as well as electronic aids
that might help people travel so that use sonar or
other technology that we use on our on our smartphone,
which we'll get into later. But a lot of the
(21:35):
work that we do is to be able to provide
people with skills so they can navigate these sort of
complex areas. So when you're waiting for a bus and
you have three different bus routes to go through the
one stop, how do you have the skills to ask
the driver, is this the correct bus? Can I use
that for a talk? There's an app or some sort
of technology to know, Is this my bus? So I'm
not making it, so I'm not getting on the wrong
one and heading off the opposite direction, heading into cafes
(21:58):
and things that those kind of indoor environments and whether
it's a cafe or a classroom at a school or
a new lecture theatre teaching people to be able to
walk into that space and trying to grab some information
immediately about it. You know, how big is the room,
whether we're using our vision, our remaining vision as a
sense to be able to get that information or, you know,
using sound echolocation so that the sound that you know,
(22:19):
people who are blind to have a vision, some people
have the ability, said he sounds bounce off walls and
that gives gives an accurate description of kind of how
big the room might be or how dense it might
be with furniture. The way now to get this information
at the start is really useful. And then also having
the skills to be able to try and navigate that
space and try and discover that area for yourself. So
how big is it and what's the perimeter like? You
know where the table's laid out in this cafe and
(22:41):
where is the counter? Where do I order my coffee from?
And once I've ordered my my latte with one sugar,
where do I go and stand and collect the coffee? And.
And sometimes sometimes that is where an orientation my mobility
specialist might come in to provide that extra layer of
information that sometimes is visual to be able to give
people that little bit extra information that they might need
(23:01):
to get, feel free and confident to walk into that
space and know that they can. They know sort of
the social cues and they know the social environment that
they're walking into. Now I'm an orientation of my mobility specialist,
but I also have low vision, so that's probably a
big part of why I'm so passionate about the role
as well, because I live it every day.
S3 (23:17):
I know you're really passionate about more high-tech options. I
think you can introduce us to three apps which have
really kind of revolutionized mobility for the community.
S8 (23:25):
One of my top picks of my favorite apps is
an app called Microsoft Soundscape. What this is, this is
an app that uses 3D audio. So if you're using
bone conducting headphones so you have some headphones in your ears,
imagine you going to a brand new place. You know
you've gone to the Gold Coast for the weekend. Lovely.
You could. Yeah, you can turn this app on walking
with soundscape. With this three day directional sand, I can
(23:46):
hear that there's an idea directly off to my left
and I can hear that there's a McDonald's up ahead
of me. I can hear about the names of the
brains that I'm passing. So kind of provides a greater
level of orientation so you can feel more confident navigating
these spaces.
S3 (24:00):
Is there anything else out there? Maybe if you're kind
of going on some public transport, I know that can
be quite challenging.
S8 (24:05):
If you're an author and user next year. If you're
an Android user, you could use an app called Transit.
But essentially what this does at the bus stop your app,
you can open it up and pinpoint your location using GPS.
You can choose the bus stop you're standing at with
voiceover as well, and you find you can get a
call out of live information about how far away buses. So,
for example, you might have united. Two three, three draw
(24:26):
in two minutes is seven to seven doing four minutes
and then the nine three nine during eight minutes. I
know it's the third bus that I need to catch.
Can I think
S3 (24:34):
you have one more for us
S8 (24:35):
down? There is another app and this is an app
called Aara. This app is really great. I serve refrigerators.
Get out of jail card. Kind of a way that
you have access to some visual information from someone who's
fully trained. They're sitting behind the computer in the USA
so they can see your current location. And I can
also see what you're saying. Of the camera so people
(24:56):
can use this app to ask, I'm a bit disorientated.
Can you show me where my nearest bus stop is
or I'm in an airport and I need to work
at where the check-in guides? And by simply opening the
app and pressing the call button, someone's on the other line.
And I can see I've used this in Sydney Airport
before our agent brings up the interior map. Just, yep,
keep going straight ahead. All this some signs on the left.
(25:18):
In Japan, you find the left. There's a sign saying
checking area straight ahead. Keep on going. So they can
kind of give you this extra layer of visual information
that in the past, you know, we just didn't have
access to our which is a paid up. But also
there's other options. You know, there's a free app called
Be My Eyes is a similar thing where you're talking
directly to volunteers. You also have the option of just
using face time or using your smartphone camera and calling
(25:40):
a friend and saying, Hey, you know, a bit lost.
Can you tell me, is they're crossing me here? Or
When is a taxi? Or can you read this document
for me? So using technology and using cameras and things
like that is making a huge difference.
S3 (25:51):
Darren, thank you so much. That was so interesting and
some really helpful strategies as well. Thank you for joining us.
S8 (25:57):
All right, guys, it's a pleasure.
S2 (25:58):
Well, this is just the start of the conversation about
staying safe inside and outside of your home. And if
you want to find out more about the orientation and mobility,
skills training or some of the amazing community groups that
Nimoy runs. You can find that information on the Vision
Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot org. That's
(26:20):
Vision Australia dot org. And remember, you can also download
this podcast from the Vision Australia website, this episode and
previous episodes. The website also has some links to useful
resources and information, including some of the apps that Darren mentioned.
S3 (26:37):
And next time we're going to be talking about mental health,
but for now, thank you to all of our guests
and thank you for joining us for the show where
nothing's off limits.
S1 (26:51):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages Capability Building grants,
learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
VOA Radio, dot org and access all there is to
know about our range of client services via our website.
Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in
(27:14):
this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely
on your support, so please share this podcast with just
one person today and bright announce or greet us on
your preferred podcast platform. Bye for now. If this program
has brought up any issues for you, please contact Lifeline
(27:35):
on 13, 11, 14 or online at Lifeline dot org
dot IU. The suicide callback service is one 300 six
five nine four six seven or online at Suicide Callback
Service dot org. Today you there's beyondblue 1300 double two
four six three six and online and beyond blue dot org.
(27:59):
Today you.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.