June 29, 2021 • 27 mins
Nothing’s Off Limits: brings together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid but absolutely need to talk about.
In this episode, Tess and Polly explore Dating! They quiz their guests on how to get the best out of getting and going on dates if you are blind or have low vision. They also explore the difficult questions about when to disclose, how to stay safe, and how to recognize if things are going well…
Nothings off Limits is made with the support of Vision Australia Radio and the NDIS Information Linkages Capacity Building grant.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:03):
Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with
the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages
and capacity building grant and grants.
S2 (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to this next episode of Nothing's Off Limits.
My name is Tess, and together with my co-host Polly,
we're going to be delving into some of those subjects
which we might normally consider off limits, such as dating,
adult entertainment, identity and more. We'll be exploring them openly
and honestly through the specific lens of blindness and low
(00:45):
vision with the help of our expert guests.
S3 (00:48):
This podcast is available to be downloaded on the Vision
Australia website, and you can find out more information about
where to find our web page at the end of
the show. But in this episode, we are talking about dating,
and there are a number of ways we can go
about meeting potential dates. Some people might go to speed
dating events or singles parties, and others may look online,
(01:10):
and there are many online dating sites, including Tinder, eHarmony, OkCupid,
Hinge and Bumble. And they enable you to view the
profiles of people anywhere in the world and interact with
them by sharing messages and photos. And in spite of
the benefits this may provide, it also presents a number
of challenges, particularly for people with a disability. Some of
(01:30):
the most common challenges include the issue of whether or
not to disclose that you have a disability and how
to remain safe and comfortable when meeting someone you've only
spoken to online. Unfortunately, these issues can become obstacles to
people with a disability feeling confident to explore the world
of online dating. Is that something that resonates with you?
It really
S2 (01:50):
does poly. I've experienced the world of online dating and look,
everyone's different. I don't know if dating as somebody who's
gay is different is similar to dating as somebody who's straight,
but I've always wondered whether to disclose my blindness, whether
or not to. There's been problems with accessibility of certain sites,
so that's sort of limited my options in some way.
(02:11):
So I can quite understand how a lot of people
with disabilities might be prevented from exploring the world of
dating by by some of the challenges that we face
today with modern dating. Well, to
S3 (02:21):
help us address some of these challenges, we have a
great lineup of guests and we'll introduce them in a moment.
But first we asked you how you approached the challenges
of dating, and we got some really interesting answers.
S1 (02:34):
Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. What's the
hardest thing about dating? I don't think it differs too
much with a blind, low vision or completely sighted. It's
just that saying hello and making that first contact.
S4 (02:56):
Good question. Wait a minute. Posit there for a second.
The hardest thing about dating is getting over negative self-talk.
S1 (03:04):
Oh wow, that's profound. Most people would say the options
that are out there,
S4 (03:10):
I think the the options that are out there are
dictated by how you see yourself. You limit your own
options by going, Oh, look, I'm not good enough for
that person or how do you know that you know
that person is outside my lead? Or how do you
know that you're limiting yourself by the way you see
yourself
S5 (03:30):
or to be truthful? Jason, I'm completely hopeless in this area,
and I haven't done much of it, and I need
to do more of it. But I think the hardest
thing is that a lot of initial attraction is visual,
and it's those non those sort of visual cues that
can begin attraction. And when you can't see, you don't
have that connection, that early connection with people, it's hard
(03:51):
to actually strike up that connection. So then you have
all the online dating apps, and I can't talk about it,
but I've never done it. I feel like I don't
feel particularly comfortable and straying into that area, even though
probably that's what I do need to do.
S6 (04:07):
Oh, these days, I think it's because there's so much
competition out there. Also, social media, I think in some
ways makes it harder. I think the challenge is today's
if people use the Tindal, another sort of dating platforms
and there's the whole issue about disclosure, do I disclose
(04:27):
that I'm visually impaired or not? And then this whole
anxiety thing about sort of meeting up someone and having
to reveal the fact that you're visually impaired? It's it's
it's probably a lot more challenging than what it's ever been.
In some ways. A lot of people, I think, just
give up.
S7 (04:40):
To me, this is a little bit like the whole
finding employment thing. It's like, when do you disclose my
vision impairment isn't very obvious to someone just looking at
me at first glance, this is really weird dance that
I have to do, not just with dating with everybody.
When they start to notice that I'm not looking at
them straight on or I'm not able to see something,
(05:01):
there's a sort of a point between where it becomes awkward.
And I don't want to say something and where I
probably should have stepped in and said, something's dating. Sites
always say that eye contact is the most important thing,
which is really daunting when you can't make eye contact.
S1 (05:17):
You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits, which is entirely produced
by Vision Australia radio.
S2 (05:23):
It's time. You welcome our first guest for this episode,
Adelina Holloway, a mentor and passionate advocate for people who
are blind or have low vision to have their voices heard.
After 27 years of marriage, Adelina decided to explore the
world of online dating, and she's here to tell us
all about it. Lena, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
S3 (05:43):
And let's go straight in. What made you decide to
explore online dating?
S8 (05:47):
Well, as you mentioned, I'd been with the same pattern
of for 27 years, married for 20 of those years.
And yeah, about three and a half years ago we
split it, knocked the wind out of myself, so to speak,
and I wondered how I would get along in the
world alone, let alone alone with someone with low vision.
It took me a while to learn how to be
(06:08):
alone and and I realized after a little while that
I just didn't want to be. I come from an
Italian background where intimacy, passion, connection with other people, all
that sort of thing is very much ingrained in me.
So I knew I could never get through, get along
in this world without a partner. I was about 18
months into reconciling with my divorce or my separation that
(06:29):
I'd give a colleague of mine sort of had some
success with one of the dating sites, and I thought
I resisted and resisted and then thought, Well, what the hell?
And on I went.
S3 (06:39):
And what were some of the challenges that came with
online dating?
S8 (06:43):
I got a lot of attention on there, which I
wasn't expecting. Yeah, so I guess it was just trying
to weed out who the scammers were and how the who,
the ones that were worth perhaps chatting to and then
deciding at what point do I disclose my vision impairment?
Once I realized I wanted to meet that person and
make that meet the person, you know, face to face.
So that was challenging as far as I've got enough
(07:04):
vision that I was able to see the photographs. Accessibility
wasn't too much of an issue for me. Yeah, look,
disclosure was the biggest thing to me, I think, yeah.
S3 (07:13):
And can you tell us a bit more about that?
Because that feels like such a personal choice and particularly
with online dating and as you said, if you're maybe
low vision, so there's less maybe visual cues that might
indicate that you have a vision loss. How did you
go about that?
S8 (07:29):
I think I made the decision that I wouldn't do
it in the app. I wanted to give myself the
best chance of finding someone that accepted me for me
before they stereotype me as, you know, the blind girl,
you know? So that was a decision I made, whether
it be right or wrong that I wouldn't disclose in
the app. Like, I wouldn't say that I was, that
(07:49):
I had a vision impairment in the app. Then I
had to decide whether I would do it when I
had conversations or face time, conversations or whatever. And often
I grappled with that a little bit because texting that
someone can become quite intimate and and it's almost like
I felt at times that I was being a bit
of a fraud because I wouldn't wasn't telling them the
whole truth about myself. Having said that, I soon found
(08:10):
out that I had met people that were so different
from the person I was speaking to. So, you know
who was the fraud? Yeah, so but I decided I
didn't disclose in the first few dates if I wanted
it to go to a second date or further than that,
then I would disclose. There were times where I just
went on, I need to get out of here and
(08:31):
it's not worth my energy to disclose. And and then
and then if I knew there it some potential for
it to go further, then yeah, I disclosed I would
say that, you know, but just pieces at a time.
I didn't give my whole life story. I gave pieces
at a time and what I felt I needed to
know at that time. But soon found out that that
probably wasn't the right tack, because I yeah, it kind
(08:55):
of backfired on me a couple of times. Yeah, I
can tell that story.
S9 (08:58):
If you want me to. I feel like we have
to ask the question Well. Okay. Yeah.
S8 (09:04):
So and it's with because of I mean, I went
on many, many dates and somewhat short term. Some didn't
go past the first date. But I just talk about
the current one that's been about eight months in now,
and I sat with him one night over a drink
and I sort of said, you know, when would you
have like me to disclose? He obviously knows now. He said,
I would like you to have disclosed on the first night.
(09:24):
I said, why? He said, Because I thought you weren't
into me. And I went, Why? He said, Because you
weren't making any eye contact with me over dinner. And
then when we got intimate, he again said during, you know,
the throes of passion for want of a better word.
I said I wasn't making any eye contact. I wasn't
looking at him. So he said to me, I just
thought you weren't into me. Couple of days later, he
(09:45):
rang me and he said, I don't I don't think
this is going to work. And I hadn't disclosed at
this stage and I said why? And he said, it's
clear that you're not into me. I just think you're
perhaps too good for me the way you look or
that sort of thing. I'm not, you know, you just
you weren't making any eye contact with me and I
just went, Oh gosh, I can't. I've got to tell
you something. This is the reason why I wasn't making
eye contact with you. And he went, Oh God, why
(10:07):
didn't you tell me? He said, Now it makes sense. So, yeah,
that was my story about that, Ben. I'm still with
that particular gentleman, so
S1 (10:14):
I knew it wasn't me. JJ Sutherland, I chime in
and did.
S9 (10:24):
And I had to say I have to just
S8 (10:26):
add a little bit the other way that this guy
is on air or not, but it kind of had
a knock on effect to, Oh gosh, how do I
say this to his performance? Now I actually rang a
friend of mine, a gay male friend, and said, there's
such a thing as performance anxiety said, Hell yeah. They said,
What are you talking about? Tell me the story. And
I said, Well, this is the story. And he went,
Oh God, I'm intimidated by you, let alone, you know? Yeah,
(10:52):
you know, someone who is not only intimidated by the
way you look, but then you don't make any eye
contact with him and you're not one of the poor
guy couldn't perform. So, you know, oh, poor bloke.
S9 (11:02):
Oh, as soon as I disclosed,
S8 (11:04):
everything
S9 (11:05):
changed. Oh gosh, say I overshare, Love it. I love it.
Thank you.
S8 (11:14):
They describe it as a good thing.
S3 (11:15):
So that's a really insightful story. And I guess now
you're a few months down the line. I guess that's
another thing that we've spoken about in the past around.
If you have a disability, that is danger, the right
word of part where the lines are between a partner
and someone who's supporting you around some of the aspects
(11:38):
of your disability. Yeah. Has that come up at all
with your current relationship or previous relationships? And how do
you kind of navigate that sort of dual relationship?
S8 (11:47):
Yeah, look a bit of both. I mean, I have
disclosed to other partners in the past, and you can
almost see a shift from them seeing you as an,
you know, an attractive, independent sort of woman to someone
who needs help. You know, I had to say to
me that, you know, Oh, now I can see the
vulnerability in you. And now that makes sense because you know,
there are certain situations where you're not as confident and
(12:07):
that sort of thing. And you know, I've had partners
completely flip it on their head. They were just they
were just now, you know, wanting to completely control what
I did, you know, and check in on me and
and guide me when I didn't need to be guided and,
you know, over handle me and that sort of thing.
And I think I've said to you in the past that,
you know, if I wanted, if I wanted that, I'd
employ a support worker, you know, and that's not what
(12:30):
I want. So but it's tricky because sometimes I do
need the help. It's a very fine line between wanting
to be, you know, somewhat normal or sighted, you know,
to someone who needs help and when you fiercely independent.
And I've had my current partner say to me, You know,
you just need to tell me when I can help you,
because sometimes when he goes to help me, I'll I'll go, No, no,
I don't need the help. And he's like, You need
(12:51):
to kind of tell me, I can't read your mind.
I need to know. And with my particular condition, I
p it's very environmental, so someday I can function very,
very well and some lighting conditions and other times I'm
totally blind. So especially in the dark, it's really tricky.
It's it's such a fine line, but I guess the
answer is that it's just all about communication and it's
(13:12):
about me letting my guard down, telling the truth. It
took me a long time to even talk about my
mobility needs, you know, around my dog and and that
sort of thing.
S3 (13:21):
Adelina, thank you so much for coming on and being
so generous with your experience and your insights around this.
I was particularly struck by something you said right at
the beginning around, you know, spending some time alone with
yourself and deciding if being with someone is what you wanted,
because I think that's a really good point to meet.
You may not need anyone in that in that respect.
So I'm I'm really glad that you made that point.
(13:43):
But thank you so much for coming on, Adelina and
most welcome and wonderful to talk to you.
S8 (13:47):
Take care. OK, thanks, guys.
S1 (13:51):
You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly.
Did you know Vision Australia runs Tally Link, a virtual
social program that connects like minded people across a wide
range of interest areas nationally, either through telephone or video conferencing?
For more information go to Vision Australia dot org or
call one 800 eight four seven four double six. Vision
(14:12):
Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity I'd
S3 (14:16):
now like to introduce two guests Sarah Taylor and Namoi
Malcolm Sarah and the more you have lived. Experience of
online dating and code facilitate the Tele Link Group table
for one, which provides information and insights about dating from
a blindness and low vision perspective. Sarah Namoi Thank you
so much for joining us today.
S9 (14:35):
Thanks for having me.
S10 (14:36):
Absolute pleasure.
S2 (14:37):
How does your low vision impacted much on your dating experience, Sarah?
Would you like to get through
S9 (14:44):
this one where it counts? Interpersonal communication and chatting and
getting to know people? I would say no. Practically like
using apps and getting out and about. I would say it.
S10 (14:55):
So for me, dating as a person with vision loss
was very interesting, one that started when I was 18.
The hardest part of dating with a visual impairment or
with double vision, as I had at that time, was
probably just building my confidence, meet people and to demonstrate
that I was worthy of being dated.
S2 (15:15):
What are some ways that you can engage with confidence
when you're meeting someone for the first time, but make
sure that you're feeling safe?
S10 (15:22):
Namoi Look, I would say that to engage with other people,
you first need to be engaging to mount smiling at people.
It's about making people feel like you are approachable. And
then it's probably about taking that shot, feeling comfortable and
confident and saying hello. Some people like to use that
are funny anecdotes. Some people like to wear things that
(15:45):
give the person you want to talk to. Something to
talk about. Something to open the conversation with, which is
a lot of reason why. If you're a dog user
or a cane user, that's what people open with, because
it's something you've given them to talk to you about.
S2 (16:00):
Because starting a conversation, you know, especially with one who
isn't particularly chatty, it's really not fun, is it? I've
had the experience of meeting a couple of women who
I've just instantly clicked with, and then the experience of
meeting with a woman who basically sat there with monosyllabic answers.
So it's always good. It sounds like if it's something
to start the conversation, what do you think, Sarah?
S9 (16:21):
I think it's about having your confidence, having your own
skills up so you feel confident to walk in there
and leave with confidence. I think for me, having being
familiar with the venue, kind of knowing your area kind
of gives me that confidence, being able to trust yourself
that you can handle the situation
S2 (16:39):
and having a familiar venue. Could that be like a
café or a bar or around people that you've met before?
S9 (16:47):
Sure. For me, I prefer kind of coffee dates, so
daytime date. So it's a bit easier and there's more
people around and I just feel safer and more casual
and Namoi.
S2 (16:57):
What indicators can you use to tell if a date
is going well?
S10 (17:01):
Well, I think there are two types of indicators that
the indicators that you're giving us and the indicators that
you're picking up on. So the indicators that may help
you to know if the date is going well, the
indicators that you're giving off are things like, are you
feeling tense? You know, are you having those racing thoughts
in your mind? Are you having those butterflies in your stomach?
(17:22):
What's your gut saying to you? Your gut saying this
is going well and the things that you might be
listening for, you might be listening for whether or not
the person is laughing, whether or not the person is
engaged with you, whether or not the conversation is flowing.
It might also be listening for cues like the person
is looking away or their voice. If you're someone who
(17:44):
has no vision, their voice may be looking after the
left or to the right or down looking for those
sort of cues that tell you that maybe they're not
as engaged as they could be. All in all, I
think the best thing to do is simply to ask,
you know, you might say something like, I'm having a
great time and I hope that you are to test will.
S2 (18:04):
I'm certainly having a fantastic time with this interview. It
sounds like there's a lot of non visual cues that
can be given to how much somebody is laughing, how
much they're participating in the conversation. It's never good if
it's a one sided conversation, is it? But how important
would you say body language is Sarah?
S9 (18:22):
Yeah, I think it's really important your own body language
and how you're coming across and also their body language
and how they're coming across. There's non visual like those
little touches or little giggles or how close they fit
into you. Body language can also affect confidence. Be aware
of how, how you're sitting and listening to how they're
moving and negotiating their space.
S10 (18:44):
That's it's also really important to remember, however, that body
language can be different for different cultures. So if you
are dating someone who is a different culture to you
and your observing body language that you might find questionable,
maybe they're not looking at you. Maybe they're not close
to you. You might just use a verbal communication to
(19:05):
check in.
S2 (19:06):
So, Sarah, you have you experienced online dating apps? And
if so, how have you found them? Have they been accessible?
S9 (19:15):
Well, for me, with the technology I use, I use
all Apple products. I use the Zoom feature, the narrator picture.
So for me, being my vision, that's all I need
to access those kind of apps. I know we've had
one participant in the table for one group, the site
at some and not very accessible, but then others are
(19:36):
so seems that what technology are using and how you
use it?
S2 (19:39):
What about you, Namoi? What's been your experience with online
dating apps? Have they been accessible?
S10 (19:44):
Tess, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. The last online
dating app I used involved smoke signals on a rock.
I have been out of the dating game for quite
some time, so I don't unfortunately have any knowledge about
online apps other than to say it really depends on
(20:07):
how you use them. Some people who I've spoken to
have found that using them as a means to put
yourself out there and attracts people works is because you're
able to then view their profiles once they've accepted your
like or swipe or whatever the word is you use
these days. While other people use it just as a
(20:27):
as an advertisement tool, so they might put up their photos,
they might get someone to assist them to build their
profile so that they have a pool of people to
work with later on.
S3 (20:38):
So can I throw in just a rogue question? Here's
the scenario you're on a date with someone. Let's say
it's in a cafe, you've got a coffee, you're not
getting any good vibes from them. It's just tumbleweed talking crickets,
I believe you say in Australia. How do you get
out of that situation if you're saying not, this is
really not going anywhere?
S9 (20:56):
Well, it has happened on one date, although I think
he was interested, but I was there and he mentioned
the prospect of a second date. And I'm like, No,
thank you very much. It's been nice and you're lovely,
but no thank you. I won't have a second date,
so it kind of just naturally the carousel.
S3 (21:16):
So just just be honest, then.
S9 (21:19):
Yeah, just be honest. It's like you might. What are
you afraid of?
S10 (21:23):
Usually, Sarah and I disagree quite often on these things,
but this time we are in agreement. I think it's
best to respect yourself and your time and the other
person's time. So if you're really not feeling it, you
might just politely leave. If you are someone who maybe
feels less confident about politely leaving, you might set yourself
(21:45):
up with a friend to give you a call about
halfway through your date, just so you can pretend to
have a way out for dinner. You might pull out
your phone and pretend that vibrated in your pocket. And oh,
I've got to go. My cat's on fire.
S3 (22:01):
I knew you'd have
S9 (22:02):
something for us, Nimoy's
S10 (22:04):
whatever works for you. I think the most important rule
is that if you're feeling unsafe or this just isn't
for you, it's best to speak up.
S2 (22:12):
You guys are the co facilitators of Table for one.
Can you tell us a little bit about that and
why you decided to facilitate it?
S9 (22:22):
I think I found myself in this position of online
dating at this stage, and I thought it would be
nice to surround myself with a community of people who
are kind of experienced a similar situation. Just find out
the different strategies that people are using and see if
we could swap stories and hear what's going on and
see what works for some people and hopefully share that
(22:43):
advice with others and nimmo.
S2 (22:44):
You also could facilitate it. How have you found and
what has been the response from people who are blind
or have low vision?
S10 (22:51):
Or I had the pleasure of co facilitating the first
table for one group? What's there? But now I I
no longer do Sarah fly solo. She's she's kicked me out.
But the reason why I wanted to co facilitate table
for one was simply because at Vision Australia, we say
that we want to help people who are blind or
(23:13):
who have the vision to participate in every part of
life that they choose. And I think building relationships is
a really important part of living a great life. And
so I wanted to. While I don't have all the answers.
Create a forum where people could share those answers. We
could celebrate together or commiserate with each other.
S2 (23:34):
I had no idea what I was doing when I
first started dating, so much so that I joined a
website called The Pink SOFA, which got, you know, I mean,
I had no idea how to use it. I had
no idea how to, you know? All I knew was
it was a lesbian dating site. I didn't know more
than that. So say that you. Talking to a real
rookie of the dating world, what would be your main advice?
S10 (23:55):
Find out what it is you feel you bring to
our relationship. Confidence is about knowing what it is you
have to offer. There's nothing more boring than asking someone
what they do for fun. And I don't know. It's
it's I think if you don't know what you have
to offer, then you probably shouldn't be dating. You should
(24:16):
be spending time getting to know yourself, appreciate yourself. And
and dare I say it, love yourself. And then when
you enter into a relationship with someone, they don't have
to be your everything because you are your everything, and
they're just a great addition.
S2 (24:32):
What's your take on this and what would be your
advice for a dating rookie?
S9 (24:36):
This is been one of those occasions where in the
moment I disagree because I think it's always good to
learn on the job, so I would encourage people to
get out there and try it. Do your research first,
though we did in Table four when we did a
whole session on slang used in dating apps. So there's
all these abbreviations you'd need to kind of find out
(24:58):
what they mean or they can get you into trouble.
So do some research. Find out what you need to
include in your profile. Your pictures are important. Get out
there and give it a go and have fun.
S10 (25:07):
Also also consider why you're wanting to date. That makes
the whole dating process a whole lot easier. Are you
wanting to date casually? Are you looking for your Mr.
Right or Mrs. Right? Or are you looking for your Mr.
or Mrs. right now? Decide that before you start dating
S2 (25:26):
now, I would say that it's probably a really good idea,
not to mention a whole list of obscure references to
British comedies that nobody's heard of. That's something I kind
of like. You know,
S3 (25:37):
I it's the wrong elements,
S9 (25:40):
guys.
S2 (25:40):
It's just been the biggest pleasure it really has. It's
been wonderful to chat to you both and hear all
your insights, sometimes agreeing with each other, sometimes disagreeing. I
think it's more fun when we disagree. Thank you so
very much for being with us today. Thank you.
S10 (25:57):
Absolute pleasure.
S3 (25:58):
And this is just the start of the conversation about dating.
More information and some useful resources can be found on
the Vision Australia websites, including an interview with guest and
friends of the show Sara Taylor, who gives her five
dating tips for people who are blind or have low vision,
and I'll try and persuade her to share that list
of dating app abbreviations as well.
S2 (26:19):
Remember this episode in earlier episodes of Nothing's Off Limits
is available to download from the Vision Australia website. Just
go to Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot
org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and
you will be directed to our wonderful web page where
you can check this episode out and other episodes. And
please do subscribe because you don't want to miss any
(26:41):
or you can just tune in Division Australia Radio if
that involves less internet searching. Because, you know, we all
know we don't like having to search for things very often.
S3 (26:49):
And next time we'll be talking about adult services and entertainment,
so shoo the kids out of the room for that one.
We've got a couple of great guests who you may
recognize from earlier episodes of this podcast, but until then,
thank you again to our fantastic guests and thank you
for joining us for the show. When nothing's off limits.
S1 (27:13):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with a supporter of
his in Australia and the endless information linkages capability building grants.
Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
VOA Radio, dot org and access all there is to
know about our range of client services via our website.
Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in
(27:37):
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Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
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the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages
and capacity building grant and grants.
S2 (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to this next episode of Nothing's Off Limits.
My name is Tess, and together with my co-host Polly,
we're going to be delving into some of those subjects
which we might normally consider off limits, such as dating,
adult entertainment, identity and more. We'll be exploring them openly
and honestly through the specific lens of blindness and low
(00:45):
vision with the help of our expert guests.
S3 (00:48):
This podcast is available to be downloaded on the Vision
Australia website, and you can find out more information about
where to find our web page at the end of
the show. But in this episode, we are talking about dating,
and there are a number of ways we can go
about meeting potential dates. Some people might go to speed
dating events or singles parties, and others may look online,
(01:10):
and there are many online dating sites, including Tinder, eHarmony, OkCupid,
Hinge and Bumble. And they enable you to view the
profiles of people anywhere in the world and interact with
them by sharing messages and photos. And in spite of
the benefits this may provide, it also presents a number
of challenges, particularly for people with a disability. Some of
(01:30):
the most common challenges include the issue of whether or
not to disclose that you have a disability and how
to remain safe and comfortable when meeting someone you've only
spoken to online. Unfortunately, these issues can become obstacles to
people with a disability feeling confident to explore the world
of online dating. Is that something that resonates with you?
It really
S2 (01:50):
does poly. I've experienced the world of online dating and look,
everyone's different. I don't know if dating as somebody who's
gay is different is similar to dating as somebody who's straight,
but I've always wondered whether to disclose my blindness, whether
or not to. There's been problems with accessibility of certain sites,
so that's sort of limited my options in some way.
(02:11):
So I can quite understand how a lot of people
with disabilities might be prevented from exploring the world of
dating by by some of the challenges that we face
today with modern dating. Well, to
S3 (02:21):
help us address some of these challenges, we have a
great lineup of guests and we'll introduce them in a moment.
But first we asked you how you approached the challenges
of dating, and we got some really interesting answers.
S1 (02:34):
Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. What's the
hardest thing about dating? I don't think it differs too
much with a blind, low vision or completely sighted. It's
just that saying hello and making that first contact.
S4 (02:56):
Good question. Wait a minute. Posit there for a second.
The hardest thing about dating is getting over negative self-talk.
S1 (03:04):
Oh wow, that's profound. Most people would say the options
that are out there,
S4 (03:10):
I think the the options that are out there are
dictated by how you see yourself. You limit your own
options by going, Oh, look, I'm not good enough for
that person or how do you know that you know
that person is outside my lead? Or how do you
know that you're limiting yourself by the way you see
yourself
S5 (03:30):
or to be truthful? Jason, I'm completely hopeless in this area,
and I haven't done much of it, and I need
to do more of it. But I think the hardest
thing is that a lot of initial attraction is visual,
and it's those non those sort of visual cues that
can begin attraction. And when you can't see, you don't
have that connection, that early connection with people, it's hard
(03:51):
to actually strike up that connection. So then you have
all the online dating apps, and I can't talk about it,
but I've never done it. I feel like I don't
feel particularly comfortable and straying into that area, even though
probably that's what I do need to do.
S6 (04:07):
Oh, these days, I think it's because there's so much
competition out there. Also, social media, I think in some
ways makes it harder. I think the challenge is today's
if people use the Tindal, another sort of dating platforms
and there's the whole issue about disclosure, do I disclose
(04:27):
that I'm visually impaired or not? And then this whole
anxiety thing about sort of meeting up someone and having
to reveal the fact that you're visually impaired? It's it's
it's probably a lot more challenging than what it's ever been.
In some ways. A lot of people, I think, just
give up.
S7 (04:40):
To me, this is a little bit like the whole
finding employment thing. It's like, when do you disclose my
vision impairment isn't very obvious to someone just looking at
me at first glance, this is really weird dance that
I have to do, not just with dating with everybody.
When they start to notice that I'm not looking at
them straight on or I'm not able to see something,
(05:01):
there's a sort of a point between where it becomes awkward.
And I don't want to say something and where I
probably should have stepped in and said, something's dating. Sites
always say that eye contact is the most important thing,
which is really daunting when you can't make eye contact.
S1 (05:17):
You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits, which is entirely produced
by Vision Australia radio.
S2 (05:23):
It's time. You welcome our first guest for this episode,
Adelina Holloway, a mentor and passionate advocate for people who
are blind or have low vision to have their voices heard.
After 27 years of marriage, Adelina decided to explore the
world of online dating, and she's here to tell us
all about it. Lena, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
S3 (05:43):
And let's go straight in. What made you decide to
explore online dating?
S8 (05:47):
Well, as you mentioned, I'd been with the same pattern
of for 27 years, married for 20 of those years.
And yeah, about three and a half years ago we
split it, knocked the wind out of myself, so to speak,
and I wondered how I would get along in the
world alone, let alone alone with someone with low vision.
It took me a while to learn how to be
(06:08):
alone and and I realized after a little while that
I just didn't want to be. I come from an
Italian background where intimacy, passion, connection with other people, all
that sort of thing is very much ingrained in me.
So I knew I could never get through, get along
in this world without a partner. I was about 18
months into reconciling with my divorce or my separation that
(06:29):
I'd give a colleague of mine sort of had some
success with one of the dating sites, and I thought
I resisted and resisted and then thought, Well, what the hell?
And on I went.
S3 (06:39):
And what were some of the challenges that came with
online dating?
S8 (06:43):
I got a lot of attention on there, which I
wasn't expecting. Yeah, so I guess it was just trying
to weed out who the scammers were and how the who,
the ones that were worth perhaps chatting to and then
deciding at what point do I disclose my vision impairment?
Once I realized I wanted to meet that person and
make that meet the person, you know, face to face.
So that was challenging as far as I've got enough
(07:04):
vision that I was able to see the photographs. Accessibility
wasn't too much of an issue for me. Yeah, look,
disclosure was the biggest thing to me, I think, yeah.
S3 (07:13):
And can you tell us a bit more about that?
Because that feels like such a personal choice and particularly
with online dating and as you said, if you're maybe
low vision, so there's less maybe visual cues that might
indicate that you have a vision loss. How did you
go about that?
S8 (07:29):
I think I made the decision that I wouldn't do
it in the app. I wanted to give myself the
best chance of finding someone that accepted me for me
before they stereotype me as, you know, the blind girl,
you know? So that was a decision I made, whether
it be right or wrong that I wouldn't disclose in
the app. Like, I wouldn't say that I was, that
(07:49):
I had a vision impairment in the app. Then I
had to decide whether I would do it when I
had conversations or face time, conversations or whatever. And often
I grappled with that a little bit because texting that
someone can become quite intimate and and it's almost like
I felt at times that I was being a bit
of a fraud because I wouldn't wasn't telling them the
whole truth about myself. Having said that, I soon found
(08:10):
out that I had met people that were so different
from the person I was speaking to. So, you know
who was the fraud? Yeah, so but I decided I
didn't disclose in the first few dates if I wanted
it to go to a second date or further than that,
then I would disclose. There were times where I just
went on, I need to get out of here and
(08:31):
it's not worth my energy to disclose. And and then
and then if I knew there it some potential for
it to go further, then yeah, I disclosed I would
say that, you know, but just pieces at a time.
I didn't give my whole life story. I gave pieces
at a time and what I felt I needed to
know at that time. But soon found out that that
probably wasn't the right tack, because I yeah, it kind
(08:55):
of backfired on me a couple of times. Yeah, I
can tell that story.
S9 (08:58):
If you want me to. I feel like we have
to ask the question Well. Okay. Yeah.
S8 (09:04):
So and it's with because of I mean, I went
on many, many dates and somewhat short term. Some didn't
go past the first date. But I just talk about
the current one that's been about eight months in now,
and I sat with him one night over a drink
and I sort of said, you know, when would you
have like me to disclose? He obviously knows now. He said,
I would like you to have disclosed on the first night.
(09:24):
I said, why? He said, Because I thought you weren't
into me. And I went, Why? He said, Because you
weren't making any eye contact with me over dinner. And
then when we got intimate, he again said during, you know,
the throes of passion for want of a better word.
I said I wasn't making any eye contact. I wasn't
looking at him. So he said to me, I just
thought you weren't into me. Couple of days later, he
(09:45):
rang me and he said, I don't I don't think
this is going to work. And I hadn't disclosed at
this stage and I said why? And he said, it's
clear that you're not into me. I just think you're
perhaps too good for me the way you look or
that sort of thing. I'm not, you know, you just
you weren't making any eye contact with me and I
just went, Oh gosh, I can't. I've got to tell
you something. This is the reason why I wasn't making
eye contact with you. And he went, Oh God, why
(10:07):
didn't you tell me? He said, Now it makes sense. So, yeah,
that was my story about that, Ben. I'm still with
that particular gentleman, so
S1 (10:14):
I knew it wasn't me. JJ Sutherland, I chime in
and did.
S9 (10:24):
And I had to say I have to just
S8 (10:26):
add a little bit the other way that this guy
is on air or not, but it kind of had
a knock on effect to, Oh gosh, how do I
say this to his performance? Now I actually rang a
friend of mine, a gay male friend, and said, there's
such a thing as performance anxiety said, Hell yeah. They said,
What are you talking about? Tell me the story. And
I said, Well, this is the story. And he went,
Oh God, I'm intimidated by you, let alone, you know? Yeah,
(10:52):
you know, someone who is not only intimidated by the
way you look, but then you don't make any eye
contact with him and you're not one of the poor
guy couldn't perform. So, you know, oh, poor bloke.
S9 (11:02):
Oh, as soon as I disclosed,
S8 (11:04):
everything
S9 (11:05):
changed. Oh gosh, say I overshare, Love it. I love it.
Thank you.
S8 (11:14):
They describe it as a good thing.
S3 (11:15):
So that's a really insightful story. And I guess now
you're a few months down the line. I guess that's
another thing that we've spoken about in the past around.
If you have a disability, that is danger, the right
word of part where the lines are between a partner
and someone who's supporting you around some of the aspects
(11:38):
of your disability. Yeah. Has that come up at all
with your current relationship or previous relationships? And how do
you kind of navigate that sort of dual relationship?
S8 (11:47):
Yeah, look a bit of both. I mean, I have
disclosed to other partners in the past, and you can
almost see a shift from them seeing you as an,
you know, an attractive, independent sort of woman to someone
who needs help. You know, I had to say to
me that, you know, Oh, now I can see the
vulnerability in you. And now that makes sense because you know,
there are certain situations where you're not as confident and
(12:07):
that sort of thing. And you know, I've had partners
completely flip it on their head. They were just they
were just now, you know, wanting to completely control what
I did, you know, and check in on me and
and guide me when I didn't need to be guided and,
you know, over handle me and that sort of thing.
And I think I've said to you in the past that,
you know, if I wanted, if I wanted that, I'd
employ a support worker, you know, and that's not what
(12:30):
I want. So but it's tricky because sometimes I do
need the help. It's a very fine line between wanting
to be, you know, somewhat normal or sighted, you know,
to someone who needs help and when you fiercely independent.
And I've had my current partner say to me, You know,
you just need to tell me when I can help you,
because sometimes when he goes to help me, I'll I'll go, No, no,
I don't need the help. And he's like, You need
(12:51):
to kind of tell me, I can't read your mind.
I need to know. And with my particular condition, I
p it's very environmental, so someday I can function very,
very well and some lighting conditions and other times I'm
totally blind. So especially in the dark, it's really tricky.
It's it's such a fine line, but I guess the
answer is that it's just all about communication and it's
(13:12):
about me letting my guard down, telling the truth. It
took me a long time to even talk about my
mobility needs, you know, around my dog and and that
sort of thing.
S3 (13:21):
Adelina, thank you so much for coming on and being
so generous with your experience and your insights around this.
I was particularly struck by something you said right at
the beginning around, you know, spending some time alone with
yourself and deciding if being with someone is what you wanted,
because I think that's a really good point to meet.
You may not need anyone in that in that respect.
So I'm I'm really glad that you made that point.
(13:43):
But thank you so much for coming on, Adelina and
most welcome and wonderful to talk to you.
S8 (13:47):
Take care. OK, thanks, guys.
S1 (13:51):
You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly.
Did you know Vision Australia runs Tally Link, a virtual
social program that connects like minded people across a wide
range of interest areas nationally, either through telephone or video conferencing?
For more information go to Vision Australia dot org or
call one 800 eight four seven four double six. Vision
(14:12):
Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity I'd
S3 (14:16):
now like to introduce two guests Sarah Taylor and Namoi
Malcolm Sarah and the more you have lived. Experience of
online dating and code facilitate the Tele Link Group table
for one, which provides information and insights about dating from
a blindness and low vision perspective. Sarah Namoi Thank you
so much for joining us today.
S9 (14:35):
Thanks for having me.
S10 (14:36):
Absolute pleasure.
S2 (14:37):
How does your low vision impacted much on your dating experience, Sarah?
Would you like to get through
S9 (14:44):
this one where it counts? Interpersonal communication and chatting and
getting to know people? I would say no. Practically like
using apps and getting out and about. I would say it.
S10 (14:55):
So for me, dating as a person with vision loss
was very interesting, one that started when I was 18.
The hardest part of dating with a visual impairment or
with double vision, as I had at that time, was
probably just building my confidence, meet people and to demonstrate
that I was worthy of being dated.
S2 (15:15):
What are some ways that you can engage with confidence
when you're meeting someone for the first time, but make
sure that you're feeling safe?
S10 (15:22):
Namoi Look, I would say that to engage with other people,
you first need to be engaging to mount smiling at people.
It's about making people feel like you are approachable. And
then it's probably about taking that shot, feeling comfortable and
confident and saying hello. Some people like to use that
are funny anecdotes. Some people like to wear things that
(15:45):
give the person you want to talk to. Something to
talk about. Something to open the conversation with, which is
a lot of reason why. If you're a dog user
or a cane user, that's what people open with, because
it's something you've given them to talk to you about.
S2 (16:00):
Because starting a conversation, you know, especially with one who
isn't particularly chatty, it's really not fun, is it? I've
had the experience of meeting a couple of women who
I've just instantly clicked with, and then the experience of
meeting with a woman who basically sat there with monosyllabic answers.
So it's always good. It sounds like if it's something
to start the conversation, what do you think, Sarah?
S9 (16:21):
I think it's about having your confidence, having your own
skills up so you feel confident to walk in there
and leave with confidence. I think for me, having being
familiar with the venue, kind of knowing your area kind
of gives me that confidence, being able to trust yourself
that you can handle the situation
S2 (16:39):
and having a familiar venue. Could that be like a
café or a bar or around people that you've met before?
S9 (16:47):
Sure. For me, I prefer kind of coffee dates, so
daytime date. So it's a bit easier and there's more
people around and I just feel safer and more casual
and Namoi.
S2 (16:57):
What indicators can you use to tell if a date
is going well?
S10 (17:01):
Well, I think there are two types of indicators that
the indicators that you're giving us and the indicators that
you're picking up on. So the indicators that may help
you to know if the date is going well, the
indicators that you're giving off are things like, are you
feeling tense? You know, are you having those racing thoughts
in your mind? Are you having those butterflies in your stomach?
(17:22):
What's your gut saying to you? Your gut saying this
is going well and the things that you might be
listening for, you might be listening for whether or not
the person is laughing, whether or not the person is
engaged with you, whether or not the conversation is flowing.
It might also be listening for cues like the person
is looking away or their voice. If you're someone who
(17:44):
has no vision, their voice may be looking after the
left or to the right or down looking for those
sort of cues that tell you that maybe they're not
as engaged as they could be. All in all, I
think the best thing to do is simply to ask,
you know, you might say something like, I'm having a
great time and I hope that you are to test will.
S2 (18:04):
I'm certainly having a fantastic time with this interview. It
sounds like there's a lot of non visual cues that
can be given to how much somebody is laughing, how
much they're participating in the conversation. It's never good if
it's a one sided conversation, is it? But how important
would you say body language is Sarah?
S9 (18:22):
Yeah, I think it's really important your own body language
and how you're coming across and also their body language
and how they're coming across. There's non visual like those
little touches or little giggles or how close they fit
into you. Body language can also affect confidence. Be aware
of how, how you're sitting and listening to how they're
moving and negotiating their space.
S10 (18:44):
That's it's also really important to remember, however, that body
language can be different for different cultures. So if you
are dating someone who is a different culture to you
and your observing body language that you might find questionable,
maybe they're not looking at you. Maybe they're not close
to you. You might just use a verbal communication to
(19:05):
check in.
S2 (19:06):
So, Sarah, you have you experienced online dating apps? And
if so, how have you found them? Have they been accessible?
S9 (19:15):
Well, for me, with the technology I use, I use
all Apple products. I use the Zoom feature, the narrator picture.
So for me, being my vision, that's all I need
to access those kind of apps. I know we've had
one participant in the table for one group, the site
at some and not very accessible, but then others are
(19:36):
so seems that what technology are using and how you
use it?
S2 (19:39):
What about you, Namoi? What's been your experience with online
dating apps? Have they been accessible?
S10 (19:44):
Tess, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. The last online
dating app I used involved smoke signals on a rock.
I have been out of the dating game for quite
some time, so I don't unfortunately have any knowledge about
online apps other than to say it really depends on
(20:07):
how you use them. Some people who I've spoken to
have found that using them as a means to put
yourself out there and attracts people works is because you're
able to then view their profiles once they've accepted your
like or swipe or whatever the word is you use
these days. While other people use it just as a
(20:27):
as an advertisement tool, so they might put up their photos,
they might get someone to assist them to build their
profile so that they have a pool of people to
work with later on.
S3 (20:38):
So can I throw in just a rogue question? Here's
the scenario you're on a date with someone. Let's say
it's in a cafe, you've got a coffee, you're not
getting any good vibes from them. It's just tumbleweed talking crickets,
I believe you say in Australia. How do you get
out of that situation if you're saying not, this is
really not going anywhere?
S9 (20:56):
Well, it has happened on one date, although I think
he was interested, but I was there and he mentioned
the prospect of a second date. And I'm like, No,
thank you very much. It's been nice and you're lovely,
but no thank you. I won't have a second date,
so it kind of just naturally the carousel.
S3 (21:16):
So just just be honest, then.
S9 (21:19):
Yeah, just be honest. It's like you might. What are
you afraid of?
S10 (21:23):
Usually, Sarah and I disagree quite often on these things,
but this time we are in agreement. I think it's
best to respect yourself and your time and the other
person's time. So if you're really not feeling it, you
might just politely leave. If you are someone who maybe
feels less confident about politely leaving, you might set yourself
(21:45):
up with a friend to give you a call about
halfway through your date, just so you can pretend to
have a way out for dinner. You might pull out
your phone and pretend that vibrated in your pocket. And oh,
I've got to go. My cat's on fire.
S3 (22:01):
I knew you'd have
S9 (22:02):
something for us, Nimoy's
S10 (22:04):
whatever works for you. I think the most important rule
is that if you're feeling unsafe or this just isn't
for you, it's best to speak up.
S2 (22:12):
You guys are the co facilitators of Table for one.
Can you tell us a little bit about that and
why you decided to facilitate it?
S9 (22:22):
I think I found myself in this position of online
dating at this stage, and I thought it would be
nice to surround myself with a community of people who
are kind of experienced a similar situation. Just find out
the different strategies that people are using and see if
we could swap stories and hear what's going on and
see what works for some people and hopefully share that
(22:43):
advice with others and nimmo.
S2 (22:44):
You also could facilitate it. How have you found and
what has been the response from people who are blind
or have low vision?
S10 (22:51):
Or I had the pleasure of co facilitating the first
table for one group? What's there? But now I I
no longer do Sarah fly solo. She's she's kicked me out.
But the reason why I wanted to co facilitate table
for one was simply because at Vision Australia, we say
that we want to help people who are blind or
(23:13):
who have the vision to participate in every part of
life that they choose. And I think building relationships is
a really important part of living a great life. And
so I wanted to. While I don't have all the answers.
Create a forum where people could share those answers. We
could celebrate together or commiserate with each other.
S2 (23:34):
I had no idea what I was doing when I
first started dating, so much so that I joined a
website called The Pink SOFA, which got, you know, I mean,
I had no idea how to use it. I had
no idea how to, you know? All I knew was
it was a lesbian dating site. I didn't know more
than that. So say that you. Talking to a real
rookie of the dating world, what would be your main advice?
S10 (23:55):
Find out what it is you feel you bring to
our relationship. Confidence is about knowing what it is you
have to offer. There's nothing more boring than asking someone
what they do for fun. And I don't know. It's
it's I think if you don't know what you have
to offer, then you probably shouldn't be dating. You should
(24:16):
be spending time getting to know yourself, appreciate yourself. And
and dare I say it, love yourself. And then when
you enter into a relationship with someone, they don't have
to be your everything because you are your everything, and
they're just a great addition.
S2 (24:32):
What's your take on this and what would be your
advice for a dating rookie?
S9 (24:36):
This is been one of those occasions where in the
moment I disagree because I think it's always good to
learn on the job, so I would encourage people to
get out there and try it. Do your research first,
though we did in Table four when we did a
whole session on slang used in dating apps. So there's
all these abbreviations you'd need to kind of find out
(24:58):
what they mean or they can get you into trouble.
So do some research. Find out what you need to
include in your profile. Your pictures are important. Get out
there and give it a go and have fun.
S10 (25:07):
Also also consider why you're wanting to date. That makes
the whole dating process a whole lot easier. Are you
wanting to date casually? Are you looking for your Mr.
Right or Mrs. Right? Or are you looking for your Mr.
or Mrs. right now? Decide that before you start dating
S2 (25:26):
now, I would say that it's probably a really good idea,
not to mention a whole list of obscure references to
British comedies that nobody's heard of. That's something I kind
of like. You know,
S3 (25:37):
I it's the wrong elements,
S9 (25:40):
guys.
S2 (25:40):
It's just been the biggest pleasure it really has. It's
been wonderful to chat to you both and hear all
your insights, sometimes agreeing with each other, sometimes disagreeing. I
think it's more fun when we disagree. Thank you so
very much for being with us today. Thank you.
S10 (25:57):
Absolute pleasure.
S3 (25:58):
And this is just the start of the conversation about dating.
More information and some useful resources can be found on
the Vision Australia websites, including an interview with guest and
friends of the show Sara Taylor, who gives her five
dating tips for people who are blind or have low vision,
and I'll try and persuade her to share that list
of dating app abbreviations as well.
S2 (26:19):
Remember this episode in earlier episodes of Nothing's Off Limits
is available to download from the Vision Australia website. Just
go to Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot
org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and
you will be directed to our wonderful web page where
you can check this episode out and other episodes. And
please do subscribe because you don't want to miss any
(26:41):
or you can just tune in Division Australia Radio if
that involves less internet searching. Because, you know, we all
know we don't like having to search for things very often.
S3 (26:49):
And next time we'll be talking about adult services and entertainment,
so shoo the kids out of the room for that one.
We've got a couple of great guests who you may
recognize from earlier episodes of this podcast, but until then,
thank you again to our fantastic guests and thank you
for joining us for the show. When nothing's off limits.
S1 (27:13):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with a supporter of
his in Australia and the endless information linkages capability building grants.
Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
VOA Radio, dot org and access all there is to
know about our range of client services via our website.
Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in
(27:37):
this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely
on your support, so please share this podcast with just
one person today and brighten our day or rate us
on your preferred podcast platform. Bye for now.
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