June 1, 2021 • 27 mins
Welcome to our new podcast series Nothing’s Off Limits: bringing together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid but absolutely need to talk about.
In this episode, Tess and Polly explore the subject of relationships: how can you cultivate and nurture healthy relationships and how can you identify and deal with unhealthy ones? And what are the particular challenges if you are blind or have low vision in building and maintaining positive relationships with partners, parents, children, siblings, friends and carers?
Nothings off Limits is made with the support of Vision Australia Radio and the NDIS Information Linkages Capacity Building grant.
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:03):
Nothing's off limits. It's off limits. Bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with
the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages
and capacity building grant building grants.
S2 (00:24):
Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits.
My name is Polly, and together with my co-host Tess,
we're exploring some of those topics which we might usually
consider off limits and discussing them openly and honestly and
through the specific lens of blindness and low vision with
the help of expert guests.
S3 (00:42):
You can download this podcast at Vision Australia dot org,
and there will be more details about where you can
find us at the end of the episode.
S2 (00:52):
In this episode, we are talking about something we all
have experience in relationships, whether it's relationships with the partner, parents,
a child, a sibling, a friends or a carer. These
are hugely influential connections. They have the capacity to nourish
us deeply, to make us laugh and make us cry.
For how do we cultivate and nurture healthy relationships? And
(01:13):
how do we identify and deal with unhealthy ones? And
are there particular challenges if you are blind or have
low vision around building and maintaining positive relationships, or in
changing or moving away from negative relationships?
S1 (01:27):
Nothing's off limits. With Tess and Polly Polly, how would
you describe a healthy relationship?
S4 (01:38):
Lots of fun, lots of chatter times apart and time together.
I think trust communication, a sense of humour, the ability
to be able to speak openly.
S1 (01:50):
One that's built on trust and open dialogue.
S3 (01:52):
I think it's one where there's trust and there's mutual respect.
S4 (01:57):
There's support
S3 (01:58):
and belief in each other
S4 (02:00):
is one where both parties give and take,
S5 (02:07):
where you are respectful and mindful of other people and
flexible and adaptable.
S1 (02:14):
What are the things that are unhealthy about a relationship
controlling
S5 (02:17):
behaviour where there is bullying? We know if someone's just
not taking a being aware of the other person.
S3 (02:23):
If we're talking about this in terms of vision, it's
important to me that if I accept support from somebody
close to me that I feel that I'm able to
support them in other ways. Equally, I don't like to
have a relationship where I feel like I'm relying more
on somebody than
S4 (02:41):
they're relying on me.
S6 (02:42):
A healthy relationship? Well, it's it's good to have a dream,
isn't it? I've been married for 12 years. Part of
the secrets of my success on holding onto my beautiful
wife is that we're actually quite good at talking about
stuff where I say, I'm sorry. I have become a
bit of a low vision diva over the last year.
Presenting Studio one on Vision Australia Radio. I have found
out there's a lot of the things that I do
(03:05):
that are a bit weird or wrong. Actually, loads of
other people do them as well who have sight impairments.
So I turned into a bit of a diva recently
about that one. My three key bits of advice say
thank you. Say sorry. I know when to buy
S1 (03:19):
flowers you're listening to. Nothing's off limits. Where Tess and
Polly produced by Vision Australia Radio
S3 (03:26):
one way of working out what a healthy relationship is
could be identifying what it isn't. Our first guest has
experienced and survived some challenging relationships. Sarah Taylor is a
quality living co-ordinator at Vision Australia. She's happily divorced, but
still negotiating family dynamics. Sarah, thank you so much for
(03:47):
coming on the program.
S4 (03:48):
Thank you for having me.
S3 (03:49):
What constitutes for you a healthy relationship?
S4 (03:53):
It's an interesting question. Very interesting question for me. I
think autonomy and being able to maintain your identity and
your yourself within that relationship, I think is important. Having
the freedom to be yourself and not feel judged, I
think I
S3 (04:09):
think those are some really important points
S4 (04:12):
to go over the flip side of that. What are
some of the red flags that might alert you to
the fact that relationship might not be completely healthy? In
my experience, it was that feeling of discomfort and not
feeling like I had those those options or not feeling
the choices were being made on my behalf. So I think, yeah,
(04:33):
so
S3 (04:33):
it's important that you get that autonomy in a relationship.
S4 (04:37):
It's important to make decisions together, perhaps. I think so.
And just having the courage to stand up for yourself
if you feel that that's needed things like that. So lately,
now you've had the experience of being
S3 (04:51):
married and leaving a
S4 (04:53):
marriage. How did you negotiate that and were there any
challenges specific to your vision in negotiating that? Definitely. I
think I stay longer than I probably should have because
I did rely on my partner a lot for my ability.
I remember before we got married saying to him, I
(05:14):
don't want to become dependent on you. That's my biggest fear.
And I don't know if you've heard the saying you
create what you fear. So yes, yes. How did you
overcome those challenges in order to become autonomous now? Yeah, well,
the thing was prior to in my teens, I was fearless.
I would travel into state on my own. I was
(05:36):
very like, I had all the training, the orientation, my
ability training. So I was very capable. And then somewhere
in my twenties, I just kind of let it let
it go. Then I had children and that kind of
forces you to be a bit more with your mum
than say, you've got people looking up to you. And
I think when I reconnected with the miners and my
vision community and it helped me regain some of that confidence,
(05:59):
some of that independence and that kind of was the
beginning of the end. So what
S3 (06:03):
advice would you have for someone who's in a similar
position to you, perhaps in a relationship that isn't healthy
and where they're not feeling autonomous and like they're making
decisions for
S4 (06:14):
themselves? Well, I have a friend in a situation at
the moment. I've been talking with and the best advice
I can give is just be your friend. If you've
got friends going through that, just be a friend to
your friends. But I would say it's not as scary
as you think it's going to be. You do have
the skills, you do have the strength that they need
to gain that independence. And sometimes you don't realize it
(06:37):
until you're forced into doing it, but you're stronger than
you think.
S3 (06:39):
How important is it to have supports around you? You know, friends,
family and as you said, you were talking about being
a friend. How important are those supports when you taking
a big step like leading a relationship to become more
independent and autonomous?
S4 (06:55):
It's tricky because if you're in in a situation where
you're completely dependent on that person, often you lose those relationships.
And so it's really tricky to have those for myself.
I was quite alone after my separation, which was hard.
It was lonely, but it kind of forced me to
be more independent and it challenged me to find that
(07:18):
resilience within. So in some ways, it's a curse and
a blessing. In some ways it's a good thing because
it forces you to look too inwardly and on others
and on the hands. It's good to have those friends
to lean on, so you don't want to replace the
dependency with your partner, with your friends on the cash level.
S3 (07:32):
Very much about making sure that you can rely on yourself.
So you're a mother and a daughter, and both roles
involve nurture and caring, but with someone who has a disability.
Are there any challenges around navigating boundaries, around caring and
being a carer? It's a tricky
S4 (07:53):
one. It is always a tricky one. And because, you know,
in quality of living, we talk to a lot of
different people and it's very interesting to hear the different stories.
There are people who rely heavily on their partners or
their mothers or their families, and are those who like,
Oh no, you can't rely on them, you've got to
do it yourself. And so negotiating that balance is really tricky,
(08:13):
especially if you've got a family member who's overprotective. And
I just want to do everything for you that can
be quite disempowering, although it's easy and convenient. And then
with the children too, I even find sometimes my daughter
will speak up on my behalf and it's like, Well,
hold on. I'm the adult. I'm going to say it
(08:34):
is tricky to negotiate those boundaries. So continuing dance, I think? Absolutely.
S7 (08:39):
Sarah, thank you so much for being here.
S4 (08:41):
That's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Steve.
S2 (08:44):
There's a really powerful definition of relationships on the government
funded Domestic Violence Organisation website. One 800 Respect. They say
relationships remind us that we are valued and allow us
to share the joys and challenges of life with others.
And they also affirm that you have the right to
feel respected and safe in your relationships and to help
us explore what this means a bit further. I'm delighted
(09:07):
to welcome back Natalie Wade. Natalie is the founder and
principal lawyer at Equality Lawyers, a firm relatively unique in
Australia being set up by us for us. Natalie, welcome back.
S4 (09:18):
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure
to be here
S2 (09:21):
talking to us from Adelaide at a very busy rush hour. So, Natalie,
maybe can you start by telling us what we can
do when we don't feel respected and safe in a relationship?
S4 (09:31):
I think it's really important to start with recognising what
unsafe can look like, because I think often when we
talk about unsafe relationships, we're seeing really violent situations like
(09:52):
rape and physical injuries and other really awful things that
can absolutely happen in the domestic violence and family violence space.
But I would really like to recognise that unsafe relationships
can also be more safer than I'd always have to be.
(10:15):
That really violent end of the spectrum and then can
be more sort of, you know, to your own religious.
And it can be about controlling money, maybe your partner
or your your parents don't allow you to have control
of your money and don't let you bother in junior year,
(10:36):
or maybe your support worker tells you what you can
wear every day, even if that's not what you want
to wear. Perhaps your friends tell you to drink lots
of alcohol when you're out on Saturday night, even when
you wonder and these are all versions of unsafe relationships
(10:58):
and also very much including violence and criminal offended relationships.
S2 (11:06):
That's really helpful when I see those signs that, you know,
it's not just the kind of big ticket items that
are an indicator of an unhealthy relationship, it's all of
those things that you mentioned as well and the fact
that relationships beyond just you might think of an emotional
relationship with a partner. It's all of those other ones.
And you mentioned carers. And I guess if you have
a disability, that is another relationship you may well have
(11:27):
between yourself and a paid support worker. Can you tell
us a bit more about, I guess, what the particular
challenges are around managing that relationship?
S4 (11:34):
Paid support workers are definitely a unique experience for people
with disabilities, and it's not one that is overly shared
throughout the community. I think as it forces the mainstream
community minded to this is in instances of aged care
or child care, even where there are people that are
(11:58):
paid to provide care and support to people who at
that time when they're receiving that care rights in that
their vulnerability is derived by the power that the support
worker or carer has or the person with a disability.
And that may be physical power. You know, you could
(12:21):
be that person with a disability receives personal care. You're
encouraging to rely on your shower, getting dressed and not paid. Somehow,
a worker has the ability to physically place that person
with a disability relevant guidelines, ideally their place in their general,
their bed or their shower, or wherever it may be
(12:43):
that they could decide that they want to leave a
person in bed day and there would not be allowed
that the person with a disability can do about it.
But there are other homeless if those working in professional
relationships that are very often the support workers are in
(13:04):
people's homes, probably. And so there's there's a real dynamic
around including sexual harm, which we spoke about a little
while ago and making sure that that rendering clear as
people with disabilities about what the boundaries are and and
what respect for child support workers. We are very clear
(13:27):
that we know what we need people with disabilities, what
we do if we become unsafe around child support records.
So often we hear about people with disabilities who don't
want to speak out against their support workers because they're scared. Understandably,
they won't be able to receive support or not be
(13:50):
able to get on with the life that they are
living because they literally can't be out of the house.
Or even worse, they are scared that they may be
reprimanded for taking a stand against that person's behavior. I
felt as though a lot of people with disabilities have
(14:14):
a fear of the unknown that if news read Bad,
I don't know what I would do. And so I'm
a lot more scared than I would be otherwise. And
I think it's really important for people to have a
game plan if things do go bad. And what would
S2 (14:31):
some of this things be in that game plan? What
are some of the options they'd have?
S4 (14:34):
Everyone's game plan is drawn to a little bit different
because everyone has different people. They can put on the fear.
If you think of it, your what's your game plan
is sort of involving people in your life that you
can reach out to when you need support to be
able to address issues around safety in your in your
(14:56):
life and through paid support like or otherwise. Then people
will have a different amount of paper put on the share. Sorry.
Some people who have parents, other people's parents who have
possibly something wrong, partners or close friends other can live
with the invisible disabilities. Their friends and family may not
(15:18):
know that they have disabilities. And so I not know
that those who. Risks open to that. So I just
felt it was a really recognize that not everyone who
receives care or finds themselves in their situation is in
a rude chair or has a physical disability, notwithstanding the
fact that the game plan would be different for everyone.
(15:40):
I think some of the really key parts of Origin
Player and they're not compulsory, but they might be good
foundations for listeners to think about to help every person
that you trust and you had to reach out to
and have their views on what is going on. And
sometimes it's really helpful to just ask someone else who
(16:01):
is not as involved as your job if you like.
Does this feel a little weird to you? Is this
maybe not what it's meant to be a resume? I
am that you. You're the person with a disability. No,
the numbers or the websites of really important first responder
(16:21):
agencies like the police and Ambulance Service, even even the
fire service, if if that's a risk for you. And
so just making sure that you have the numbers saved
in your phone or in your notes, curry is responsible
for the support workers. If you go bad for NDIS participants,
(16:47):
that might be the NDIS Quality and Safeguards Commission for
other people with disabilities and the not only NDIS. They
may need to reach out to their local disability advocates
or for disability rights lawyer and and their goals are
tied to you, and you don't even have to have
the answers over there because something may never go wrong.
(17:10):
And that's okay. That's that's great. But what we want
is for you to be able to have a line
of sight to make sure that if something bad starts
to happen or something awful goes wrong, that you have
at least one or two professional organizations that you were
written for and knowledge and organization fire to respond.
S2 (17:35):
Natalie, thank
S7 (17:36):
you so much. It's always a
S2 (17:37):
pleasure talking to you and looking forward to having you
back again soon.
S4 (17:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (17:44):
You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly.
Did you know, Vision Australia runs a range of community
and support groups? For more information, go to Vision Australia
dot org local one 300 eight four seven four Double
six Vision Australia Blindness Low Vision
S7 (18:01):
Opportunity Mental
S3 (18:02):
Health Organisation Headspace said that often healthy relationships experience a
lot of challenges like arguments, and they grow from them
to help us explore how we can nurture our relationships.
I'm delighted to welcome Vicki Contreras, one of Vision Australia's
paediatric counsellors, and she's also a family therapist with decades
of experience working with young people and their relationships with
(18:24):
their families.
S7 (18:25):
Thanks, Tess. It's great to be here again.
S3 (18:27):
I'm not going to start by asking you what a
healthy relationship looks like or how you can recognise red flags,
because I think you take a different perspective on this.
Am I right?
S7 (18:37):
I do like to think about relationships in terms of
relational health, much like the term we use with mental health,
because I prefer to view relationships on a continuum rather
than them being polar opposites. I do ask myself, what
am I willing to give to and take from that
relationship that contributes to overall relational health? This give and
take depends on who I'm interacting with, and the relationship
(19:01):
that's the dance of relationships is how we engage and
interact with one another, its own steps and tempo and
rhythm unnecessary in order for us to negotiate the moves
between people. And sometimes they steps off, verbalize so openly
stated so that people who are involved understand what is
expected of them, and sometimes they're never discussed. So it's
(19:22):
the actions between people that define what's going on in
that relationship. But I would like to say that the
first relationship dance we encounter is between ourselves and our
parents or our caregivers. This stance is the foundation for
how we dance solo and with others in our future relationships.
There is a quote that I often refer to, which
is most of us leave our families of origin physically,
(19:45):
but we rarely leave them emotionally, meaning that we continue
to re-enact the dynamics in that relationship, dance in the
family we create and also with the relationships we have
with other people.
S3 (19:55):
Something that you have mentioned before is system theory. Could
you tell me a little bit more about that?
S7 (20:01):
Yeah. So without going into too much detail because I
don't want it to sound really complicated. Systems theory abuse
a family as a unique emotional and social system, which
includes the household members and other members outside of that
house that play a really important role in the person's
life and in clinical practice. When I'm presented with a
problem we tend to use, especially family therapists, we tend
(20:24):
to perceive how the problem is maintained by how the
individuals interact with one another and how they come together
to find solutions, in other words, how they dance. In addition,
the system also can include broader systems that are connected
to those members as well and have an impact. So
schools and especially with working with primary schools or teenagers
(20:44):
who are in secondary as well, I have a lot
to do with those institutions and these different systems or
context matter because how we are in one environment may
not be how we are with another. And it's really
important to kind of gauge where that difference is because
in each context comes different people and with different people,
we have a different dance. What are some of
S3 (21:03):
the specific challenges and opportunities in developing relationships where one
partner is blind or has long vision?
S7 (21:11):
I suppose one kind of thing to think about is ultimately,
what do we all want from a relationship? And the
thing that we really want is to feel safe and
secure in that relationship. What we want to feel that
we can explore the world and return to this safe
haven and the safe haven is in between those two
people in that relationship or the family. If we're talking
(21:32):
about the relational aspect of a family and that there
is a sense of closeness, but also a sense of
separateness between people as well. We also want to feel
connected to the important people in our lives, and we
want those important people to show up for us in
good times, as well as the difficult times. And we
want to feel understood when there is conflict and we
absolutely need to find opportunities to repair what has been ruptured.
(21:55):
So what I've described is not what we want, but
really what we absolutely need in order to thrive as humans.
And this isn't only applicable to adult relationships. This is
also relate between relationships between parents and the children or
even friends. So, Vicki,
S2 (22:10):
one question that came in was about how sighted partners
might not understand some of the really important things if
you're blind or have low vision. So some of the
really kind of practical things around keeping things in the
same place, I guess recognising that greater cognitive load when
you're listening to the television, for example, how do you
have those conversations with your partner in a constructive and
(22:31):
empowering way rather than feeling like you're asking a favour?
S7 (22:35):
So research suggests that how a partner raises an issue
in the first three minutes of a conversation is crucial
to resolving relationship.
S2 (22:44):
So three minutes, that's three minutes.
S7 (22:46):
Yes. So really, what that is telling us is to
really think about how we start a conversation and we
should try and start it softly. So instead of starting
a conversation with criticism and accusations which immediately puts your
partner in a defense position, and the sentence usually starts
with the word, you start the conversation with the word I.
(23:07):
So instead of saying you never listen to me, you
can say, I don't feel heard right now because the
furniture is moved. Hmm. And see how that has a
different feel to it.
S3 (23:18):
Yeah, I've heard that one before. A lot of people,
they do. They say, you know, speaking, I sentences, I
feel this rather than rather than being defensive and, you know,
and putting them on the defense. So I think that's
a
S4 (23:31):
really useful strategy.
S7 (23:32):
So they're absolutely test. Usually therapists call them by statements
or iMessages because the whole importance of it is starting
their sentence off with the word I. So another thing
is focusing on how you're feeling. Not accusing your partner
both of you will likely feel that you are being
heard and understood if you're coming from that place and
also from your own emotional state.
S2 (23:54):
Going in nice and calm for those first three minutes
in particular can be hard. If this is a problem
that's built up and built up and kind of seething
over every day silently.
S7 (24:02):
Because when things start to build up, there's a snowball effect.
So when you do start to want to talk to
your partner about something that's just happened, but it's been
manifesting from things that have happened in the past and
you've never discussed them. The feeling associated with all of
what's happened in the months is bigger than what's actually
happening in the here and now, sort of
S2 (24:25):
the straw that broke the camel's back sort of analogy.
S7 (24:27):
Absolutely. And this is easier said than done. Of course,
we know that if we do this, it actually changes
the neural pathways in our brain through repetition and practice.
So it doesn't matter if we don't get it right
the first time. As long as we just keep trying
at it
S3 (24:43):
and staying on the theme of being in a relationship
where one partner has low vision, how can people navigate
the boundaries between being a partner and being a carer
if one partner in the relationship has lost their
S7 (24:56):
sight or is deteriorating? So the shift from partner to
carer can be challenging because it can change the dynamic
in that relationship as well as a family unit. Because
what was once normal is not is no longer the
feeling of normal. It's now become different and you have
to kind of navigate the new normal kind of like
with COVID. So it's a normal and natural response to
(25:16):
instantly be concerned for your partner's well-being and treatment. And
sometimes this may take priority, but it's important to be
open about the renegotiation of roles. I like to view
these roles as identities that intersect, and each identity needs nourishment,
so the renegotiating of roles will help re-establish boundaries in
the relationship, which is important because becoming a carer doesn't
(25:38):
have to mean doing everything for your partner. Your partner
may also want to do some things for. So in
order to nourish the independence part of themselves, just in
conclusion to that, it's important to be open about how
you feel and communicate in ways that creates an atmosphere
of respect, trust and safety, much like what we have
already covered today. And if you need support to do these,
(25:58):
seek help from others, including trusted friends or family as
well as professionals.
S3 (26:03):
Vicki, thank you so much for joining us today.
S7 (26:06):
You're welcome. Thank you for having me again.
S3 (26:08):
Thanks, Vicki. And remember, each episode is available to download
from the Virgin Australia website Virgin Australia dot org and
type Nothing's off limits into the search engine. You'll be
directed to our web page where you can view this
and earlier episodes, or you can tune in to Virgin
Australia Radio. We've gathered up all the contact details of
the organizations mentioned in this episode, along with some resources,
(26:30):
which has some great advice and perspectives around starting, ending
and growing relationships. If this episode has brought up any
issues for you, please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14
or online at Lifeline dot org dot, AEW or Suicide.
Call back service on one 300 six five nine four
(26:51):
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46 36 or visit online at two beyondblue dot org
dot AEW.
S2 (27:05):
Next time we'll be talking about appearance and body image.
But for now, it's thank you to our guests and
thank you for joining us for the show where nothing's
off limits.
S1 (27:15):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages and Capacity Building Grant.
Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
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know about our range of client services via our website.
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(27:38):
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Bye for now.
Nothing's off limits. It's off limits. Bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with
the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages
and capacity building grant building grants.
S2 (00:24):
Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits.
My name is Polly, and together with my co-host Tess,
we're exploring some of those topics which we might usually
consider off limits and discussing them openly and honestly and
through the specific lens of blindness and low vision with
the help of expert guests.
S3 (00:42):
You can download this podcast at Vision Australia dot org,
and there will be more details about where you can
find us at the end of the episode.
S2 (00:52):
In this episode, we are talking about something we all
have experience in relationships, whether it's relationships with the partner, parents,
a child, a sibling, a friends or a carer. These
are hugely influential connections. They have the capacity to nourish
us deeply, to make us laugh and make us cry.
For how do we cultivate and nurture healthy relationships? And
(01:13):
how do we identify and deal with unhealthy ones? And
are there particular challenges if you are blind or have
low vision around building and maintaining positive relationships, or in
changing or moving away from negative relationships?
S1 (01:27):
Nothing's off limits. With Tess and Polly Polly, how would
you describe a healthy relationship?
S4 (01:38):
Lots of fun, lots of chatter times apart and time together.
I think trust communication, a sense of humour, the ability
to be able to speak openly.
S1 (01:50):
One that's built on trust and open dialogue.
S3 (01:52):
I think it's one where there's trust and there's mutual respect.
S4 (01:57):
There's support
S3 (01:58):
and belief in each other
S4 (02:00):
is one where both parties give and take,
S5 (02:07):
where you are respectful and mindful of other people and
flexible and adaptable.
S1 (02:14):
What are the things that are unhealthy about a relationship
controlling
S5 (02:17):
behaviour where there is bullying? We know if someone's just
not taking a being aware of the other person.
S3 (02:23):
If we're talking about this in terms of vision, it's
important to me that if I accept support from somebody
close to me that I feel that I'm able to
support them in other ways. Equally, I don't like to
have a relationship where I feel like I'm relying more
on somebody than
S4 (02:41):
they're relying on me.
S6 (02:42):
A healthy relationship? Well, it's it's good to have a dream,
isn't it? I've been married for 12 years. Part of
the secrets of my success on holding onto my beautiful
wife is that we're actually quite good at talking about
stuff where I say, I'm sorry. I have become a
bit of a low vision diva over the last year.
Presenting Studio one on Vision Australia Radio. I have found
out there's a lot of the things that I do
(03:05):
that are a bit weird or wrong. Actually, loads of
other people do them as well who have sight impairments.
So I turned into a bit of a diva recently
about that one. My three key bits of advice say
thank you. Say sorry. I know when to buy
S1 (03:19):
flowers you're listening to. Nothing's off limits. Where Tess and
Polly produced by Vision Australia Radio
S3 (03:26):
one way of working out what a healthy relationship is
could be identifying what it isn't. Our first guest has
experienced and survived some challenging relationships. Sarah Taylor is a
quality living co-ordinator at Vision Australia. She's happily divorced, but
still negotiating family dynamics. Sarah, thank you so much for
(03:47):
coming on the program.
S4 (03:48):
Thank you for having me.
S3 (03:49):
What constitutes for you a healthy relationship?
S4 (03:53):
It's an interesting question. Very interesting question for me. I
think autonomy and being able to maintain your identity and
your yourself within that relationship, I think is important. Having
the freedom to be yourself and not feel judged, I
think I
S3 (04:09):
think those are some really important points
S4 (04:12):
to go over the flip side of that. What are
some of the red flags that might alert you to
the fact that relationship might not be completely healthy? In
my experience, it was that feeling of discomfort and not
feeling like I had those those options or not feeling
the choices were being made on my behalf. So I think, yeah,
(04:33):
so
S3 (04:33):
it's important that you get that autonomy in a relationship.
S4 (04:37):
It's important to make decisions together, perhaps. I think so.
And just having the courage to stand up for yourself
if you feel that that's needed things like that. So lately,
now you've had the experience of being
S3 (04:51):
married and leaving a
S4 (04:53):
marriage. How did you negotiate that and were there any
challenges specific to your vision in negotiating that? Definitely. I
think I stay longer than I probably should have because
I did rely on my partner a lot for my ability.
I remember before we got married saying to him, I
(05:14):
don't want to become dependent on you. That's my biggest fear.
And I don't know if you've heard the saying you
create what you fear. So yes, yes. How did you
overcome those challenges in order to become autonomous now? Yeah, well,
the thing was prior to in my teens, I was fearless.
I would travel into state on my own. I was
(05:36):
very like, I had all the training, the orientation, my
ability training. So I was very capable. And then somewhere
in my twenties, I just kind of let it let
it go. Then I had children and that kind of
forces you to be a bit more with your mum
than say, you've got people looking up to you. And
I think when I reconnected with the miners and my
vision community and it helped me regain some of that confidence,
(05:59):
some of that independence and that kind of was the
beginning of the end. So what
S3 (06:03):
advice would you have for someone who's in a similar
position to you, perhaps in a relationship that isn't healthy
and where they're not feeling autonomous and like they're making
decisions for
S4 (06:14):
themselves? Well, I have a friend in a situation at
the moment. I've been talking with and the best advice
I can give is just be your friend. If you've
got friends going through that, just be a friend to
your friends. But I would say it's not as scary
as you think it's going to be. You do have
the skills, you do have the strength that they need
to gain that independence. And sometimes you don't realize it
(06:37):
until you're forced into doing it, but you're stronger than
you think.
S3 (06:39):
How important is it to have supports around you? You know, friends,
family and as you said, you were talking about being
a friend. How important are those supports when you taking
a big step like leading a relationship to become more
independent and autonomous?
S4 (06:55):
It's tricky because if you're in in a situation where
you're completely dependent on that person, often you lose those relationships.
And so it's really tricky to have those for myself.
I was quite alone after my separation, which was hard.
It was lonely, but it kind of forced me to
be more independent and it challenged me to find that
(07:18):
resilience within. So in some ways, it's a curse and
a blessing. In some ways it's a good thing because
it forces you to look too inwardly and on others
and on the hands. It's good to have those friends
to lean on, so you don't want to replace the
dependency with your partner, with your friends on the cash level.
S3 (07:32):
Very much about making sure that you can rely on yourself.
So you're a mother and a daughter, and both roles
involve nurture and caring, but with someone who has a disability.
Are there any challenges around navigating boundaries, around caring and
being a carer? It's a tricky
S4 (07:53):
one. It is always a tricky one. And because, you know,
in quality of living, we talk to a lot of
different people and it's very interesting to hear the different stories.
There are people who rely heavily on their partners or
their mothers or their families, and are those who like,
Oh no, you can't rely on them, you've got to
do it yourself. And so negotiating that balance is really tricky,
(08:13):
especially if you've got a family member who's overprotective. And
I just want to do everything for you that can
be quite disempowering, although it's easy and convenient. And then
with the children too, I even find sometimes my daughter
will speak up on my behalf and it's like, Well,
hold on. I'm the adult. I'm going to say it
(08:34):
is tricky to negotiate those boundaries. So continuing dance, I think? Absolutely.
S7 (08:39):
Sarah, thank you so much for being here.
S4 (08:41):
That's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Steve.
S2 (08:44):
There's a really powerful definition of relationships on the government
funded Domestic Violence Organisation website. One 800 Respect. They say
relationships remind us that we are valued and allow us
to share the joys and challenges of life with others.
And they also affirm that you have the right to
feel respected and safe in your relationships and to help
us explore what this means a bit further. I'm delighted
(09:07):
to welcome back Natalie Wade. Natalie is the founder and
principal lawyer at Equality Lawyers, a firm relatively unique in
Australia being set up by us for us. Natalie, welcome back.
S4 (09:18):
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure
to be here
S2 (09:21):
talking to us from Adelaide at a very busy rush hour. So, Natalie,
maybe can you start by telling us what we can
do when we don't feel respected and safe in a relationship?
S4 (09:31):
I think it's really important to start with recognising what
unsafe can look like, because I think often when we
talk about unsafe relationships, we're seeing really violent situations like
(09:52):
rape and physical injuries and other really awful things that
can absolutely happen in the domestic violence and family violence space.
But I would really like to recognise that unsafe relationships
can also be more safer than I'd always have to be.
(10:15):
That really violent end of the spectrum and then can
be more sort of, you know, to your own religious.
And it can be about controlling money, maybe your partner
or your your parents don't allow you to have control
of your money and don't let you bother in junior year,
(10:36):
or maybe your support worker tells you what you can
wear every day, even if that's not what you want
to wear. Perhaps your friends tell you to drink lots
of alcohol when you're out on Saturday night, even when
you wonder and these are all versions of unsafe relationships
(10:58):
and also very much including violence and criminal offended relationships.
S2 (11:06):
That's really helpful when I see those signs that, you know,
it's not just the kind of big ticket items that
are an indicator of an unhealthy relationship, it's all of
those things that you mentioned as well and the fact
that relationships beyond just you might think of an emotional
relationship with a partner. It's all of those other ones.
And you mentioned carers. And I guess if you have
a disability, that is another relationship you may well have
(11:27):
between yourself and a paid support worker. Can you tell
us a bit more about, I guess, what the particular
challenges are around managing that relationship?
S4 (11:34):
Paid support workers are definitely a unique experience for people
with disabilities, and it's not one that is overly shared
throughout the community. I think as it forces the mainstream
community minded to this is in instances of aged care
or child care, even where there are people that are
(11:58):
paid to provide care and support to people who at
that time when they're receiving that care rights in that
their vulnerability is derived by the power that the support
worker or carer has or the person with a disability.
And that may be physical power. You know, you could
(12:21):
be that person with a disability receives personal care. You're
encouraging to rely on your shower, getting dressed and not paid. Somehow,
a worker has the ability to physically place that person
with a disability relevant guidelines, ideally their place in their general,
their bed or their shower, or wherever it may be
(12:43):
that they could decide that they want to leave a
person in bed day and there would not be allowed
that the person with a disability can do about it.
But there are other homeless if those working in professional
relationships that are very often the support workers are in
(13:04):
people's homes, probably. And so there's there's a real dynamic
around including sexual harm, which we spoke about a little
while ago and making sure that that rendering clear as
people with disabilities about what the boundaries are and and
what respect for child support workers. We are very clear
(13:27):
that we know what we need people with disabilities, what
we do if we become unsafe around child support records.
So often we hear about people with disabilities who don't
want to speak out against their support workers because they're scared. Understandably,
they won't be able to receive support or not be
(13:50):
able to get on with the life that they are
living because they literally can't be out of the house.
Or even worse, they are scared that they may be
reprimanded for taking a stand against that person's behavior. I
felt as though a lot of people with disabilities have
(14:14):
a fear of the unknown that if news read Bad,
I don't know what I would do. And so I'm
a lot more scared than I would be otherwise. And
I think it's really important for people to have a
game plan if things do go bad. And what would
S2 (14:31):
some of this things be in that game plan? What
are some of the options they'd have?
S4 (14:34):
Everyone's game plan is drawn to a little bit different
because everyone has different people. They can put on the fear.
If you think of it, your what's your game plan
is sort of involving people in your life that you
can reach out to when you need support to be
able to address issues around safety in your in your
(14:56):
life and through paid support like or otherwise. Then people
will have a different amount of paper put on the share. Sorry.
Some people who have parents, other people's parents who have
possibly something wrong, partners or close friends other can live
with the invisible disabilities. Their friends and family may not
(15:18):
know that they have disabilities. And so I not know
that those who. Risks open to that. So I just
felt it was a really recognize that not everyone who
receives care or finds themselves in their situation is in
a rude chair or has a physical disability, notwithstanding the
fact that the game plan would be different for everyone.
(15:40):
I think some of the really key parts of Origin
Player and they're not compulsory, but they might be good
foundations for listeners to think about to help every person
that you trust and you had to reach out to
and have their views on what is going on. And
sometimes it's really helpful to just ask someone else who
(16:01):
is not as involved as your job if you like.
Does this feel a little weird to you? Is this
maybe not what it's meant to be a resume? I
am that you. You're the person with a disability. No,
the numbers or the websites of really important first responder
(16:21):
agencies like the police and Ambulance Service, even even the
fire service, if if that's a risk for you. And
so just making sure that you have the numbers saved
in your phone or in your notes, curry is responsible
for the support workers. If you go bad for NDIS participants,
(16:47):
that might be the NDIS Quality and Safeguards Commission for
other people with disabilities and the not only NDIS. They
may need to reach out to their local disability advocates
or for disability rights lawyer and and their goals are
tied to you, and you don't even have to have
the answers over there because something may never go wrong.
(17:10):
And that's okay. That's that's great. But what we want
is for you to be able to have a line
of sight to make sure that if something bad starts
to happen or something awful goes wrong, that you have
at least one or two professional organizations that you were
written for and knowledge and organization fire to respond.
S2 (17:35):
Natalie, thank
S7 (17:36):
you so much. It's always a
S2 (17:37):
pleasure talking to you and looking forward to having you
back again soon.
S4 (17:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (17:44):
You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly.
Did you know, Vision Australia runs a range of community
and support groups? For more information, go to Vision Australia
dot org local one 300 eight four seven four Double
six Vision Australia Blindness Low Vision
S7 (18:01):
Opportunity Mental
S3 (18:02):
Health Organisation Headspace said that often healthy relationships experience a
lot of challenges like arguments, and they grow from them
to help us explore how we can nurture our relationships.
I'm delighted to welcome Vicki Contreras, one of Vision Australia's
paediatric counsellors, and she's also a family therapist with decades
of experience working with young people and their relationships with
(18:24):
their families.
S7 (18:25):
Thanks, Tess. It's great to be here again.
S3 (18:27):
I'm not going to start by asking you what a
healthy relationship looks like or how you can recognise red flags,
because I think you take a different perspective on this.
Am I right?
S7 (18:37):
I do like to think about relationships in terms of
relational health, much like the term we use with mental health,
because I prefer to view relationships on a continuum rather
than them being polar opposites. I do ask myself, what
am I willing to give to and take from that
relationship that contributes to overall relational health? This give and
take depends on who I'm interacting with, and the relationship
(19:01):
that's the dance of relationships is how we engage and
interact with one another, its own steps and tempo and
rhythm unnecessary in order for us to negotiate the moves
between people. And sometimes they steps off, verbalize so openly
stated so that people who are involved understand what is
expected of them, and sometimes they're never discussed. So it's
(19:22):
the actions between people that define what's going on in
that relationship. But I would like to say that the
first relationship dance we encounter is between ourselves and our
parents or our caregivers. This stance is the foundation for
how we dance solo and with others in our future relationships.
There is a quote that I often refer to, which
is most of us leave our families of origin physically,
(19:45):
but we rarely leave them emotionally, meaning that we continue
to re-enact the dynamics in that relationship, dance in the
family we create and also with the relationships we have
with other people.
S3 (19:55):
Something that you have mentioned before is system theory. Could
you tell me a little bit more about that?
S7 (20:01):
Yeah. So without going into too much detail because I
don't want it to sound really complicated. Systems theory abuse
a family as a unique emotional and social system, which
includes the household members and other members outside of that
house that play a really important role in the person's
life and in clinical practice. When I'm presented with a
problem we tend to use, especially family therapists, we tend
(20:24):
to perceive how the problem is maintained by how the
individuals interact with one another and how they come together
to find solutions, in other words, how they dance. In addition,
the system also can include broader systems that are connected
to those members as well and have an impact. So
schools and especially with working with primary schools or teenagers
(20:44):
who are in secondary as well, I have a lot
to do with those institutions and these different systems or
context matter because how we are in one environment may
not be how we are with another. And it's really
important to kind of gauge where that difference is because
in each context comes different people and with different people,
we have a different dance. What are some of
S3 (21:03):
the specific challenges and opportunities in developing relationships where one
partner is blind or has long vision?
S7 (21:11):
I suppose one kind of thing to think about is ultimately,
what do we all want from a relationship? And the
thing that we really want is to feel safe and
secure in that relationship. What we want to feel that
we can explore the world and return to this safe
haven and the safe haven is in between those two
people in that relationship or the family. If we're talking
(21:32):
about the relational aspect of a family and that there
is a sense of closeness, but also a sense of
separateness between people as well. We also want to feel
connected to the important people in our lives, and we
want those important people to show up for us in
good times, as well as the difficult times. And we
want to feel understood when there is conflict and we
absolutely need to find opportunities to repair what has been ruptured.
(21:55):
So what I've described is not what we want, but
really what we absolutely need in order to thrive as humans.
And this isn't only applicable to adult relationships. This is
also relate between relationships between parents and the children or
even friends. So, Vicki,
S2 (22:10):
one question that came in was about how sighted partners
might not understand some of the really important things if
you're blind or have low vision. So some of the
really kind of practical things around keeping things in the
same place, I guess recognising that greater cognitive load when
you're listening to the television, for example, how do you
have those conversations with your partner in a constructive and
(22:31):
empowering way rather than feeling like you're asking a favour?
S7 (22:35):
So research suggests that how a partner raises an issue
in the first three minutes of a conversation is crucial
to resolving relationship.
S2 (22:44):
So three minutes, that's three minutes.
S7 (22:46):
Yes. So really, what that is telling us is to
really think about how we start a conversation and we
should try and start it softly. So instead of starting
a conversation with criticism and accusations which immediately puts your
partner in a defense position, and the sentence usually starts
with the word, you start the conversation with the word I.
(23:07):
So instead of saying you never listen to me, you
can say, I don't feel heard right now because the
furniture is moved. Hmm. And see how that has a
different feel to it.
S3 (23:18):
Yeah, I've heard that one before. A lot of people,
they do. They say, you know, speaking, I sentences, I
feel this rather than rather than being defensive and, you know,
and putting them on the defense. So I think that's
a
S4 (23:31):
really useful strategy.
S7 (23:32):
So they're absolutely test. Usually therapists call them by statements
or iMessages because the whole importance of it is starting
their sentence off with the word I. So another thing
is focusing on how you're feeling. Not accusing your partner
both of you will likely feel that you are being
heard and understood if you're coming from that place and
also from your own emotional state.
S2 (23:54):
Going in nice and calm for those first three minutes
in particular can be hard. If this is a problem
that's built up and built up and kind of seething
over every day silently.
S7 (24:02):
Because when things start to build up, there's a snowball effect.
So when you do start to want to talk to
your partner about something that's just happened, but it's been
manifesting from things that have happened in the past and
you've never discussed them. The feeling associated with all of
what's happened in the months is bigger than what's actually
happening in the here and now, sort of
S2 (24:25):
the straw that broke the camel's back sort of analogy.
S7 (24:27):
Absolutely. And this is easier said than done. Of course,
we know that if we do this, it actually changes
the neural pathways in our brain through repetition and practice.
So it doesn't matter if we don't get it right
the first time. As long as we just keep trying
at it
S3 (24:43):
and staying on the theme of being in a relationship
where one partner has low vision, how can people navigate
the boundaries between being a partner and being a carer
if one partner in the relationship has lost their
S7 (24:56):
sight or is deteriorating? So the shift from partner to
carer can be challenging because it can change the dynamic
in that relationship as well as a family unit. Because
what was once normal is not is no longer the
feeling of normal. It's now become different and you have
to kind of navigate the new normal kind of like
with COVID. So it's a normal and natural response to
(25:16):
instantly be concerned for your partner's well-being and treatment. And
sometimes this may take priority, but it's important to be
open about the renegotiation of roles. I like to view
these roles as identities that intersect, and each identity needs nourishment,
so the renegotiating of roles will help re-establish boundaries in
the relationship, which is important because becoming a carer doesn't
(25:38):
have to mean doing everything for your partner. Your partner
may also want to do some things for. So in
order to nourish the independence part of themselves, just in
conclusion to that, it's important to be open about how
you feel and communicate in ways that creates an atmosphere
of respect, trust and safety, much like what we have
already covered today. And if you need support to do these,
(25:58):
seek help from others, including trusted friends or family as
well as professionals.
S3 (26:03):
Vicki, thank you so much for joining us today.
S7 (26:06):
You're welcome. Thank you for having me again.
S3 (26:08):
Thanks, Vicki. And remember, each episode is available to download
from the Virgin Australia website Virgin Australia dot org and
type Nothing's off limits into the search engine. You'll be
directed to our web page where you can view this
and earlier episodes, or you can tune in to Virgin
Australia Radio. We've gathered up all the contact details of
the organizations mentioned in this episode, along with some resources,
(26:30):
which has some great advice and perspectives around starting, ending
and growing relationships. If this episode has brought up any
issues for you, please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14
or online at Lifeline dot org dot, AEW or Suicide.
Call back service on one 300 six five nine four
(26:51):
six seven or online at Suicide Call Back Service Dot
org dot and you all contact beyondblue at one 322
46 36 or visit online at two beyondblue dot org
dot AEW.
S2 (27:05):
Next time we'll be talking about appearance and body image.
But for now, it's thank you to our guests and
thank you for joining us for the show where nothing's
off limits.
S1 (27:15):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages and Capacity Building Grant.
Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting
VIP radio, dot org and access all there is to
know about our range of client services via our website.
Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in
(27:38):
this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely
on your support. Share this podcast with just one person today.
And Bright Announce or write us on your preferred podcast platform.
Bye for now.
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