June 29, 2021 • 28 mins
Nothing’s Off Limits: brings together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid but absolutely need to talk about.
In this final episode of series 1, Tess and Polly explore how you take ownership of your disability if you are blind or have low vision. With the help of our guests, we consider disability as a label, as a community, and as an identity.
Nothings off Limits is made with the support of Vision Australia Radio and the NDIS Information Linkages Capacity Building grant.
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:04):
Nothing's off limits. It's off limits. Bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid but absolutely need to talk about made with
the support of efficient Australia and the NDIS information linkages
and capacity building grants, including grants.
S2 (00:25):
Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits.
My name is Polly, and together with my co-host Tess,
we're continuing to delve into those subjects which might usually
be considered off limits, discussing them openly and honestly and
through the specific lens of blindness and no vision.
S3 (00:42):
And as always, you can download this fabulous podcast via
the Vision Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot
org and type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine,
and you'll be directed to our web page where you
can subscribe to make sure you don't miss any episodes
or if you'd like, you can tune in by Vision
Australia Radio and this is our last episode. We're so
(01:05):
sad and we were so hoping that we could all
be in the studio together for the final time. But
unfortunately with lockdown, we're all doing a fabulous recording session
from home, so we do apologise if the quality of
the podcast isn't fantastic. We hope you're really going to
love it because we're really excited about it now. We
probably
S2 (01:24):
absolutely. That's right. And yes, I'm talking to you from
my wardrobe, so I enjoyed the ambient sound effects. And
so in this episode, we're talking about
S4 (01:33):
identity, community
S2 (01:35):
and disclosure, and the way that we identify ourselves can
impact the way that we're viewed in our communities. And
for people who are blind or have low
S4 (01:43):
vision accepting
S2 (01:44):
that they have a disability and disclosing that disability to
others can be challenging. So we've lined up a number
of guests who have lived experience in this area while
thinking about the way we are viewed by others.
S4 (01:56):
It's important
S2 (01:56):
to think about how we view
S4 (01:58):
ourselves, and so we
S2 (01:59):
asked you how you would describe yourself using just three words,
and we got some really interesting answers.
S1 (02:06):
Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly. Polly, how would
you describe yourself? In three words cold, dark and handsome.
Kind there and fees are fair and fierce. That's a
good mix.
S5 (02:24):
How would I describe myself in three? Would I think
I'm very calm?
S3 (02:29):
I'm resourceful and I'm resilient,
S6 (02:33):
fun, happy,
S1 (02:35):
cruisy, fun, energetic and sport obsessed. That took me quite
a while to
S7 (02:39):
think about, but I think I'd describe myself as loyal,
S1 (02:43):
determined and curious, enthusiastic,
S6 (02:46):
passionate about
S8 (02:47):
technology. Me, in three words. Radio presenter, twin, windy and
London are in exile, although I think that comes to
about seven words. Sorry about that.
S1 (03:00):
You're listening to a Vision Australia Radio podcast. Nothing's off
limits with Tess and Polly.
S3 (03:06):
It's time to welcome our first guest for this episode.
Now we often find ourselves subject to labelling from others,
whether it's family, friends, people in the community, so we're
going to ask our guests to introduce themselves. Jason Weiter
is possibly a familiar voice to some of our listeners. Jason,
thank you for joining us. And how would you introduce yourself?
S6 (03:28):
Hi, Tess. Hopefully, you know what? That's probably how I
do generally introduce myself to people with a good hello
and a smile on my face. Look, when I think
about it, it all depends on the city and the
situation that Tom brought into. I guess in most instances,
instances I should say I do introduce myself having a
vision impairment. I will go up to the person is
(03:49):
usually the person I would say is that I'm not
actually here drunk. Although I look at it, I am blind.
So I put a bit of a comical spin on it.
And that usually gets a conversation going. A bit of
an icebreaker.
S5 (04:01):
And I'm sure you get addicted to a lot of
blind drunk jokes as well along the way. So I
would
S6 (04:07):
absolutely look at the clock and you know, the only
one looked like a fool and you don't even have
to be drawn to do. No hangovers in the morning.
S2 (04:16):
Jason, do you identify as having a disability? I mean,
is that how you would describe it?
S6 (04:21):
Yeah, I do. Look, I am quite open about it.
I mean, it is the truth. I think, you know,
the definition of a disability is something that either as
a condition that limits one's myriad senses or activities or
is a disadvantage, it puts someone at a disadvantage. Now
my eyesight having very low eyesight, that's definitely a loss
of a major sense. And that does limit, you know,
(04:44):
what I can do in the community, and it puts
any disadvantage to people that are fully sighted is the
true for my eyes. Like I would say, I have
a disability, and it's just what it is. I mean,
you should see my playing golf, for instance, in my mind.
So I'd ask them to point me in the right
direction of the whole thing, to point me the opposite.
Just the story. I think that's a disadvantage.
S2 (05:05):
Or you just need new friends. I'm not sure
S6 (05:07):
who. Maybe that might be that. But look what role.
All jokes aside, I don't see a need to hide
the fact that I have a disability. Yeah.
S2 (05:16):
Leading on from that, how important is it for you
that those around you accept that you have a disability?
So it sounds like you have a really good relationship
with your friends and that you're already comfortable about it?
And you know, that's supportive, but also, you know, making
fun sometimes. So is that acceptance a really important part?
S6 (05:32):
I'm going to be honest here, and I don't want
to sound discourteous to others. Say this, you know, it's
not really that important. It would be nice if everyone
could accept the fact that, yes, I have a disability,
this is it, and that Jayson Tatum, who he is.
I'm not going to let it stop me doing the
things I want to do.
S2 (05:47):
So it sounds like actually the really important thing for
you is your own acceptance of having a disability.
S6 (05:52):
Definitely not. Say that is probably the most important step,
a far more important than what others think and how
they accept be. The world is not going to stop
because I have a idea. So why should I stop
doing the things that I do? It probably has asked
different things. For instance, disability, bodybuilding and playing blind tennis.
Now these are things I would never have got into
(06:13):
in the past, and these are probably things that I
wouldn't even have a competitive edge on in the past.
But now having low eyesight and accepting that and going
out and taking on these activities has allowed me to
become good at something. I also think that I accepting
my disability. It prevents me from doing reckless things from
time to time, so I don't want to go out
and take that calf or sun dry blamed on June
(06:34):
11 vehicles on the road and maybe conditions. That's a
S2 (06:37):
really interesting point, and it sounds like you really have
taken ownership of your disability, and that's something
S4 (06:42):
that you haven't
S2 (06:43):
struggled with. Or has that been a process for you?
S6 (06:46):
The moment I knew my eyesight was deteriorating, what was happening,
it was just like, Well, let's move on. You know,
I think it's something I've grown up with in the past.
I've had medical conditions, probably since day one, so I've
had to adapt. I guess I learnt at an early
age how to adapt to things and then say, Well, look,
I'm not going to be able to do this. Let's
find something else more realistic and let's progress. That is
(07:07):
something that I wanted to do. I had my heart
set on it. I would make modifications to look at
ways I could do that and then allowing people to
see that I can still do it and that's going well,
and we didn't accept me for that anyway. So their
experiences like, well, you guys, and he's what he's doing,
we accept him for that.
S4 (07:24):
And how did you
S2 (07:24):
think more broadly, disability kind of sits within the community?
Do you
S4 (07:29):
think that there's a stigma
S2 (07:31):
around discussing disability, around having a disability in the wider community?
S6 (07:35):
I think that's sort of one of the things that
sits on a scale. So you'll have those that will say, Look,
disability is what it is. It's fine, it's part of life.
Then you'll have the other side to say disability is
that dirty work and something we don't want to discuss.
We want to put it aside, and I think there's
a lot of reasons to come to this. I'm not
(07:56):
a sociologist or anything like that, so I don't know
the ins and outs of it all. Well, what I
see in the community is that more often than not,
it's not the actual person with a disability, and it's
not the person who's not closely associated with disability. It's
the people in the middle, the family members or carers
or support workers who want to sort of say that, well,
(08:16):
don't call them disabled and say that any part of
everyday commuter, they require the same as everybody else and
that can get you always want to encourage. People who
have a disability can do things, but at the same time,
it can be harmful because if we put someone in
a situation where we saying you quite capable to do
exactly what someone who's got a disability can do and
(08:37):
they can put their life in danger. So we would
only be screening that. So we saying that and saying, Okay, well,
let's just disregard the term disability. It shouldn't exist. If
we don't, what do we call? Those are people that
are going to be disadvantaged or they're going to have trouble,
is an actor and you would say he coaches people
and he has these terms that goes on to say
(08:58):
that you all have a disability and the Disabilities Act,
in my eyes, that sort of something that stands out
to me. I guess it's one of those things that
reaches out to say, Look, we have a disability that
doesn't define me.
S2 (09:10):
I wondered if you had any advice you can share
about that disclosure component. So whether it's disclosing to people
that you were just meeting when you're out and about
or whether it's in a more formal environment like, say,
starting a new job or even going on a date?
Have you got any advice about how you can disclose
S4 (09:27):
your disability
S2 (09:28):
in a way that, as you said, makes you feel
that you have the agency over it?
S6 (09:31):
Take control over that one? I think it comes down
to a Typekit disability. Just like some of the some
of the most openly obvious, you don't need to disclose
and cause a disability yourself to disclose to everybody around you.
Tarantino for missing a limb or you need to get
around a white cane. But then when there are those
that are listening, I suppose it comes down to the
person how confident they are to disclose that. Do they
(09:54):
need to disclose it? And if he don't disclose what
one of the reasons why she disclose it, because in
my opinion is the truth is always best. I think
it's always important to disclose it upfront, first and foremost,
because it gets that side of things at the way.
The advice I gave is just to be open. Like
I said, when you introduce it, tell them upfront. First
and foremost, they will probably respect you all for a
(10:15):
honest and then you will probably get people. Those I
will say is a personal issue. They're just not capable
as someone else at end of the day, that can
affect people as well.
S2 (10:24):
Jason, thank you so much. As ever, you were on
our first program, so it's so lovely to have you
bookending the series. And I love your advice about, you know,
maybe if you're confident enough going on the front foot
and that's your way of kind of taking ownership of
how you want to represent yourself,
S4 (10:41):
that's as ever
S2 (10:42):
fascinating and really
S4 (10:44):
helpful.
S6 (10:44):
Always a pleasure feeling sorry. Thank you so much for
having me on.
S1 (10:49):
You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits Where Tess and Polly
did you know? Vision Australia has produced a range of
stand up for your rights guides to support you to
understand and exercise your rights. For more information visit Vision
Australia dot org or call one 800 eight four seven
four double six. Vision Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity. How
(11:16):
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S4 (11:19):
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S4 (11:22):
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S1 (11:23):
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S4 (11:35):
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S1 (11:36):
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S4 (11:40):
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S1 (11:42):
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S2 (11:48):
We now have a panel of two guests, and both
Courtney McKay and Adelina Holloway will be familiar voices to
some of our listeners. They're both here to talk about
their experiences around identity and disclosure. Thank you both so
much for coming back. How would you two introduce yourselves?
Maybe starting with you, Courtney.
S4 (12:07):
Yeah, OK. So in this context, which is semi professional
and where blindness and low vision is a topic of conversation,
I might say that I'm a psychologist with lived experience
of blindness. I've got 15 years of experience working in
not for profits and local government, and I'm currently managing
Vision Australia's children and young people team in Queensland.
S2 (12:30):
Adelina, how would you introduce yourself?
S7 (12:32):
Usually, my guide dog Tilly does a bit of an
introduction in that I am visually impaired, so she and
people usually look at her, look at me, look at her,
look at me and kind of think, is she or
isn't she? Because I don't as vision impaired except that
I have her? I'll get asked a question straight up,
Is she mine? You disclose that point? Yes, she's mine.
And yes, I have low vision and I, but I
(12:55):
still can see. I can see you and I can
see my surrounds, and that usually relaxes the person. And
then I will also say that, you know, I'm a
middle aged mom of a couple of teenagers and fierce
advocate for different, not less. And and, you know, I'm
a kind of fairly confident, outspoken middle aged female who's
become more and more a fierce advocate for people with disability.
S5 (13:19):
So how
S4 (13:21):
big a part of your
S5 (13:22):
identity is your disability?
S7 (13:25):
You know what, it hadn't been until about three years
ago when I had a of or have had a
marriage breakdown, and it caused a lot of stress that
caused me a lot of vision loss and quite a
considerable amount of vision loss, and I really had to
realise that I couldn't hide from this anymore. It's around
about the same time I got the dog, so I
was a real pretender. I would pretend I was sighted,
(13:46):
not disclosed to many at all and still try and
be as sighted as I possibly could be. So I
never identified really until about three years ago. Now, to
answer your question, I probably identify all of the time.
S4 (13:59):
Yeah, it's definitely a big part of my life. Being
blonde sort of dictates how I do everything, how I move,
how I communicate. It's right at the forefront of how
I operate. It's not necessarily always at the forefront of
my mind, though. I just get on and do things.
But it's definitely the reason why I'm doing those things
in ways that differ from everyone around me.
S5 (14:20):
I think that makes a lot of sense. I think
new disability can really barriers to how much a
S4 (14:25):
part of your
S5 (14:27):
identity is, so it's wonderful to get to slightly different
S4 (14:30):
perspectives and how much is acceptance.
S2 (14:33):
And this is something we talked about with Jason as well.
How much is your own acceptance of your disability? A
key factor? Courtney, how about you?
S4 (14:42):
Yeah. So we've talked about grief in one of the
earlier episodes bargaining and denial, natural paths or natural states
associated with grief. A little bit like Adelina said. You're
entitled to your denial. You're entitled to try and work
around the disability as you're adjusting to it. But resistance
(15:03):
definitely burns a lot of energy, and at some point
I have come to the understanding that that energy is
better used on working towards what's good and possible for
me and the people I love. So getting on with
terms with reality is an important daily practice and I
try to engage in. If you are
S2 (15:21):
struggling with that, what are some of the kinds of
things that you can do to become more accepting of
your
S4 (15:27):
disability? Among the most effective things that I've done to
become more accepting is to rub shoulders with other people
with disabilities and people that I admire because of their
strong identification as somebody with a disability, their pride in
who they are and learn from them. That's really accelerated
(15:48):
some of my growth as a person and my ability
to be out in the world representing my community in
a way that, yeah, feels comfortable for me and you,
Adelina
S7 (15:59):
me trying to hide and cover up and pretend was
exhausting and absolutely exhausting, and I just didn't want to
do it anymore. And I realized when I started to
work back in Australia and work in the NDIS space,
and I was privileged to have a role where I
would stand up in front of people and tell them
how supports could change their lives. And I could do
(16:19):
that from a place of lived experience. So I realised that, no,
I didn't want to stand there and tell people what
I what I could say and what I could do,
but what I couldn't do and how I could do
it with support. So that's when I sort of started
by put my advocacy have had on really, you know,
now that I'm almost privileged to be in this position
now because I can change people's lives so by my
lived experience and how I can educate them on how
(16:42):
they can live a full life because often people in such.
A bad place, and I now use my voice to
be part way, change that for them and show them that, Hey,
you know what? It's possible, it's possible to still be
very empowered, especially as a woman. I speak a lot
with women to be empowered as a woman, and you
(17:02):
can still be a beautiful and desirable and well dressed
and wear those heeled boots in that dress and we
have a guide dog in your head. You know, that's
that's my passion, and that's what I try. So that
has really helped me come into my own as someone
with vision loss. Absolutely.
S2 (17:18):
I'm just really interested about, I guess, the change that's
come in around NDIS, where
S4 (17:24):
you have to talk
S2 (17:25):
about the things that you're not able to do in
order for that to be the understanding about what support
you need.
S4 (17:31):
How much do you think that's changed
S2 (17:33):
the dynamic of how you think about yourself?
S7 (17:36):
We have to now teach people how to speak the
language of the NDIS, and it's really hard for someone
to sit there and say, for instance, they ridiculously worded
some of these questions like, you know, there's a self-care section,
can you dress yourself? And everyone wants to say, yes,
of course I can dress myself. We have to teach
them how to say no. Yes, I can do it,
but I need assistance. In my case, yes, I can
(17:58):
dress myself, but I need help choosing color. I need
help putting makeup on in that then comes on top
of that. I need an occupational therapist. I need perhaps
someone to show me how to put makeup on. Is
a vision impaired woman. I need better lighting in my bathroom.
I need my magnification, so we need to change the
way people are thinking. So instead of just saying Yes,
I can do this myself, yes, I could do so,
but
S4 (18:17):
I need help. That's fascinating.
S2 (18:19):
Courtney, have you found any, I guess, changes about how
you feel about yourself or how you present yourself going
through the NDIS process?
S4 (18:27):
It's pretty common that when you are long term vision
impaired or you've had a disability of any kind for
a long time, you've become really good at work arounds
and everything that you do has been adjusted. You're using
tools using strategies that the average person on the street
couldn't even imagine. But because they've become every day to you,
(18:49):
you don't necessarily know how to articulate them, to break
them down into tiny little chunks and feed them to
somebody who has no experience of your disability. But that
is what you have to do. You have to be
able to articulate all of those work around. So you
can say, Well, yes, I can do this thing that
I require x y z in order to be able
(19:10):
to do that above and beyond what the average person does.
So for me to lead an ordinary life, I have
all of these adaptations, some of which will require funding
for me to be able to continue Adelina.
S5 (19:21):
You mentioned before the importance of emphasizing being different instead
of saying, Listen, can you tell us a little bit
about why that's important?
S7 (19:31):
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, in a nutshell, it's I
try to, you know, empower people with that thought that
you're not less than anyone else because you have a disability.
You just do things differently. You know, we we can
do anything that anyone else can within our limits of
having low vision. But we just as Courtney said, before
we just do it, we adapt the way we do it. So,
(19:53):
you know, we considered a computer and do our job,
but we need assistive technology to do that. You know,
I can I can walk to work and commute to
my workplace, but I need my dog beside me to
help me to do that. It's just those little tweaks
we have in life to now enable us to to
do things differently. But we are certainly no less than
anyone else
S2 (20:11):
on, Hey, how do you negotiate those boundaries around helping
people to understand a disability? What's not kind of taking
on the responsibility of being everyone's teachable moment? I know
that's something we've kind of touched on
S4 (20:22):
before,
S2 (20:23):
but that's a really tough thing to
S4 (20:24):
do. Yeah. And I thought of running a bit of
a cost benefit analysis when I bump into people. So
I'm looking at whether or not they have the capacity
to learn if they're deeply invested in a particular way
of seeing things, and that gives them a sense of power.
Then I know that it's probably not going to be
productive to push, you know, I come across a lot
(20:45):
of people that are just not that great at perceiving
and integrating new information generally. Sometimes it's time limits, so
it might only be a passing exchange. I will do
things differently then, as opposed to if we have a
bit more time to explore, and I'm also thinking about
my emotional reserves. So if I'm already depleted, then it
(21:06):
might not be worth trying to educate somebody when I'm
feeling like that versus when I have the energy to
do it. If it's service, I'll try to work with
a person directly the service provider. But if they're combative
and I sense they want to dominate me, then I'll
send the feedback up the line, hopefully to somebody who's
a little bit more reasonable. So it's about balancing my capacity,
(21:28):
their capacity and the impact on my community. Oh, that's
S2 (21:31):
fantastic. A fantastic kind of methodology to use.
S5 (21:35):
Finally, Adelaide, Matt and Courtney, what are some steps that
people could take to make it easier to disclose because
we know that disclosing can be very challenging? Adelina, would
you like to?
S7 (21:46):
Yeah, look. I think that something I've learned in disclosure
is using it as an opportunity to educate as well.
So when I disclosed, though, have done in the past. Sure.
Except I've got low vision, but I've just explained what
that what that what that looks like for me. And
I would let them know what I can see. You know,
I can see your face, I can see you standing
in front of me. I can tell you you're wearing
(22:06):
a dark color, but I probably can't see beyond that.
You know, just give me a little bit of a
context of what I can see. And just to give
them an understanding. And it makes it when I do that,
it tends to make them a little bit more comfortable. OK,
then I can look her in the eye and I
know she's going to make eye contact with me to
some degree. Or it also helps if I'm out and about,
(22:27):
especially in dimly lit situations. If I disclosed before I
go into the venue to someone who may not doesn't
know me very well or just met. You know, it's
it's just having the confidence to be able to explain
to people what, what, what you can see and how
they can help you. I a bunch of friends. I
was in Byron Bay once and one of my friends
pulled me back from not stepping outside of the car.
(22:48):
This before I had my dog and he screamed to
me and he was very, very mad with me. I've
known him since university and he said to me, Adalind,
we just need to know what you can and can't see,
so we know how to support you. So he swore.
I just said, So, you know, stop being so bloody
independent and tell us how otherwise you're going to get killed,
you know? So and that was a that was by
then they kind of did an intervention with me that
(23:09):
night and sort of said, You know, we we need
to know you're obviously not the woman you were at university. Clearly,
you can't see what you used to be able to see.
So we need to know now so we know how
to support you. And then it just takes the pressure
off us as well. And I never looked at it
like that before. I've had to really think about how
it affects the other person and how it affects those
(23:29):
around me.
S4 (23:30):
Yeah, I think when people acquire vision loss for the
first time or they're new to disability generally, that there's
a real aversion to joining the community and identifying as
somebody who's one of many with with a disability. But
one of the benefits, I guess, of being part of
our community is that you get to review a range
(23:51):
of approaches, what other people have done before, and you
can choose what things might look like for you. And
that includes in relation to how you disclosure disability. I
would recommend that people think about different situations because it
will vary, as we've talked about already today. And I
also think people need to be gentle with themselves because
you'll be learning about how to do this well for yourself,
(24:13):
for the rest of your life, and you'll choose and
change your mind over and over and over again.
S5 (24:18):
That is a wonderful note to end on. Adelina Courtney,
thank you so much for being here and sharing your
lived experience with this is just being such
S7 (24:26):
a privilege chatting to you
S4 (24:27):
and wonderful to be here and congratulations on a great series.
S7 (24:30):
Guys, thank you for having me. Have a be a
part of it. I've really enjoyed it and I hope
it helps lots of people out there. I really do.
Well done, guys.
S2 (24:37):
Thank you both so much and Jason too. And as ever,
this is just the start of the conversation about identity,
community and disclosure. And you can visit the Vision Australia
website for some useful resources and information, including an article
with some tips about how you can dispose your disability
to employees.
S4 (24:56):
We've just finished
S5 (24:57):
our last episode of Tommy. Can I don't know what
to think about this, but we could not have done
it without some very special people. I have the great
honour of first and foremost, thanking our wonderful collection of guests. We,
I mean, look, I'm sure that people would love to
(25:17):
listen to Polly and I just chattering white. We certainly
do as
S2 (25:20):
short as sure.
S4 (25:23):
But yes,
S5 (25:24):
for those who don't feel like listening to us, just
having our guests have brought something just fantastic for podcast.
Thank you to everyone who participated in the box pops
just added some fantastic color. Thank you to our listeners.
Our wonderful listeners mean what would be the point of
creating a podcast that you to listen to us and
(25:46):
tell us where we're going right or going wrong? And finally,
I speak on behalf of Polly and myself. It is
most important, so much so very important to thank our
wonderful producer, Jace. You're a huge shout out today because
he has just been a wonderful source of support and expertise.
He holds us in line cases in line when when
(26:07):
Polly and I are having too much fun and not easy.
S2 (26:10):
Not an easy task.
S5 (26:12):
No, it's really not and really more than anything else
we could not have done without him.
S4 (26:17):
So thank you, guys.
S1 (26:19):
Thanks, guys. It's the lived experience of our guests that
really pulled it together. I really appreciate everyone's
S4 (26:23):
efforts, completely stressed
S2 (26:26):
and remembered. This episode and early episodes of Nothing's Off
Limits can be downloaded from the Vision Australia website. Just
go to Vision Australia dot org and type. Nothing's off
limits into the search engine and you'll find our web
page and you can catch up with all 10 episodes,
as well as resources that go along with them. And
we'd love to. Your feedback about the series of what
(26:48):
you liked, what you didn't like and what you suggest
should there be a second series? You can reach us
on nothing's off limits at Vision Australia dot org that's
nothing's off limits at Vision Australia. Org No apostrophe upon
apologies there for the grammar experts. But we do hope
to be with you again soon. Until then, thank you
(27:08):
so much for joining us for the show where nothing's
off limits.
S1 (27:17):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
efficient Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant.
Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting V.J. Radio,
dot org and access all there is to know about
our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia
(27:38):
dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode,
but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support,
so please share this podcast with just one person today
and brighten our day or write us on your preferred
podcast platform. Bye for now.
Nothing's off limits. It's off limits. Bringing together experts and
people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love
to avoid but absolutely need to talk about made with
the support of efficient Australia and the NDIS information linkages
and capacity building grants, including grants.
S2 (00:25):
Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits.
My name is Polly, and together with my co-host Tess,
we're continuing to delve into those subjects which might usually
be considered off limits, discussing them openly and honestly and
through the specific lens of blindness and no vision.
S3 (00:42):
And as always, you can download this fabulous podcast via
the Vision Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot
org and type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine,
and you'll be directed to our web page where you
can subscribe to make sure you don't miss any episodes
or if you'd like, you can tune in by Vision
Australia Radio and this is our last episode. We're so
(01:05):
sad and we were so hoping that we could all
be in the studio together for the final time. But
unfortunately with lockdown, we're all doing a fabulous recording session
from home, so we do apologise if the quality of
the podcast isn't fantastic. We hope you're really going to
love it because we're really excited about it now. We
probably
S2 (01:24):
absolutely. That's right. And yes, I'm talking to you from
my wardrobe, so I enjoyed the ambient sound effects. And
so in this episode, we're talking about
S4 (01:33):
identity, community
S2 (01:35):
and disclosure, and the way that we identify ourselves can
impact the way that we're viewed in our communities. And
for people who are blind or have low
S4 (01:43):
vision accepting
S2 (01:44):
that they have a disability and disclosing that disability to
others can be challenging. So we've lined up a number
of guests who have lived experience in this area while
thinking about the way we are viewed by others.
S4 (01:56):
It's important
S2 (01:56):
to think about how we view
S4 (01:58):
ourselves, and so we
S2 (01:59):
asked you how you would describe yourself using just three words,
and we got some really interesting answers.
S1 (02:06):
Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly. Polly, how would
you describe yourself? In three words cold, dark and handsome.
Kind there and fees are fair and fierce. That's a
good mix.
S5 (02:24):
How would I describe myself in three? Would I think
I'm very calm?
S3 (02:29):
I'm resourceful and I'm resilient,
S6 (02:33):
fun, happy,
S1 (02:35):
cruisy, fun, energetic and sport obsessed. That took me quite
a while to
S7 (02:39):
think about, but I think I'd describe myself as loyal,
S1 (02:43):
determined and curious, enthusiastic,
S6 (02:46):
passionate about
S8 (02:47):
technology. Me, in three words. Radio presenter, twin, windy and
London are in exile, although I think that comes to
about seven words. Sorry about that.
S1 (03:00):
You're listening to a Vision Australia Radio podcast. Nothing's off
limits with Tess and Polly.
S3 (03:06):
It's time to welcome our first guest for this episode.
Now we often find ourselves subject to labelling from others,
whether it's family, friends, people in the community, so we're
going to ask our guests to introduce themselves. Jason Weiter
is possibly a familiar voice to some of our listeners. Jason,
thank you for joining us. And how would you introduce yourself?
S6 (03:28):
Hi, Tess. Hopefully, you know what? That's probably how I
do generally introduce myself to people with a good hello
and a smile on my face. Look, when I think
about it, it all depends on the city and the
situation that Tom brought into. I guess in most instances,
instances I should say I do introduce myself having a
vision impairment. I will go up to the person is
(03:49):
usually the person I would say is that I'm not
actually here drunk. Although I look at it, I am blind.
So I put a bit of a comical spin on it.
And that usually gets a conversation going. A bit of
an icebreaker.
S5 (04:01):
And I'm sure you get addicted to a lot of
blind drunk jokes as well along the way. So I
would
S6 (04:07):
absolutely look at the clock and you know, the only
one looked like a fool and you don't even have
to be drawn to do. No hangovers in the morning.
S2 (04:16):
Jason, do you identify as having a disability? I mean,
is that how you would describe it?
S6 (04:21):
Yeah, I do. Look, I am quite open about it.
I mean, it is the truth. I think, you know,
the definition of a disability is something that either as
a condition that limits one's myriad senses or activities or
is a disadvantage, it puts someone at a disadvantage. Now
my eyesight having very low eyesight, that's definitely a loss
of a major sense. And that does limit, you know,
(04:44):
what I can do in the community, and it puts
any disadvantage to people that are fully sighted is the
true for my eyes. Like I would say, I have
a disability, and it's just what it is. I mean,
you should see my playing golf, for instance, in my mind.
So I'd ask them to point me in the right
direction of the whole thing, to point me the opposite.
Just the story. I think that's a disadvantage.
S2 (05:05):
Or you just need new friends. I'm not sure
S6 (05:07):
who. Maybe that might be that. But look what role.
All jokes aside, I don't see a need to hide
the fact that I have a disability. Yeah.
S2 (05:16):
Leading on from that, how important is it for you
that those around you accept that you have a disability?
So it sounds like you have a really good relationship
with your friends and that you're already comfortable about it?
And you know, that's supportive, but also, you know, making
fun sometimes. So is that acceptance a really important part?
S6 (05:32):
I'm going to be honest here, and I don't want
to sound discourteous to others. Say this, you know, it's
not really that important. It would be nice if everyone
could accept the fact that, yes, I have a disability,
this is it, and that Jayson Tatum, who he is.
I'm not going to let it stop me doing the
things I want to do.
S2 (05:47):
So it sounds like actually the really important thing for
you is your own acceptance of having a disability.
S6 (05:52):
Definitely not. Say that is probably the most important step,
a far more important than what others think and how
they accept be. The world is not going to stop
because I have a idea. So why should I stop
doing the things that I do? It probably has asked
different things. For instance, disability, bodybuilding and playing blind tennis.
Now these are things I would never have got into
(06:13):
in the past, and these are probably things that I
wouldn't even have a competitive edge on in the past.
But now having low eyesight and accepting that and going
out and taking on these activities has allowed me to
become good at something. I also think that I accepting
my disability. It prevents me from doing reckless things from
time to time, so I don't want to go out
and take that calf or sun dry blamed on June
(06:34):
11 vehicles on the road and maybe conditions. That's a
S2 (06:37):
really interesting point, and it sounds like you really have
taken ownership of your disability, and that's something
S4 (06:42):
that you haven't
S2 (06:43):
struggled with. Or has that been a process for you?
S6 (06:46):
The moment I knew my eyesight was deteriorating, what was happening,
it was just like, Well, let's move on. You know,
I think it's something I've grown up with in the past.
I've had medical conditions, probably since day one, so I've
had to adapt. I guess I learnt at an early
age how to adapt to things and then say, Well, look,
I'm not going to be able to do this. Let's
find something else more realistic and let's progress. That is
(07:07):
something that I wanted to do. I had my heart
set on it. I would make modifications to look at
ways I could do that and then allowing people to
see that I can still do it and that's going well,
and we didn't accept me for that anyway. So their
experiences like, well, you guys, and he's what he's doing,
we accept him for that.
S4 (07:24):
And how did you
S2 (07:24):
think more broadly, disability kind of sits within the community?
Do you
S4 (07:29):
think that there's a stigma
S2 (07:31):
around discussing disability, around having a disability in the wider community?
S6 (07:35):
I think that's sort of one of the things that
sits on a scale. So you'll have those that will say, Look,
disability is what it is. It's fine, it's part of life.
Then you'll have the other side to say disability is
that dirty work and something we don't want to discuss.
We want to put it aside, and I think there's
a lot of reasons to come to this. I'm not
(07:56):
a sociologist or anything like that, so I don't know
the ins and outs of it all. Well, what I
see in the community is that more often than not,
it's not the actual person with a disability, and it's
not the person who's not closely associated with disability. It's
the people in the middle, the family members or carers
or support workers who want to sort of say that, well,
(08:16):
don't call them disabled and say that any part of
everyday commuter, they require the same as everybody else and
that can get you always want to encourage. People who
have a disability can do things, but at the same time,
it can be harmful because if we put someone in
a situation where we saying you quite capable to do
exactly what someone who's got a disability can do and
(08:37):
they can put their life in danger. So we would
only be screening that. So we saying that and saying, Okay, well,
let's just disregard the term disability. It shouldn't exist. If
we don't, what do we call? Those are people that
are going to be disadvantaged or they're going to have trouble,
is an actor and you would say he coaches people
and he has these terms that goes on to say
(08:58):
that you all have a disability and the Disabilities Act,
in my eyes, that sort of something that stands out
to me. I guess it's one of those things that
reaches out to say, Look, we have a disability that
doesn't define me.
S2 (09:10):
I wondered if you had any advice you can share
about that disclosure component. So whether it's disclosing to people
that you were just meeting when you're out and about
or whether it's in a more formal environment like, say,
starting a new job or even going on a date?
Have you got any advice about how you can disclose
S4 (09:27):
your disability
S2 (09:28):
in a way that, as you said, makes you feel
that you have the agency over it?
S6 (09:31):
Take control over that one? I think it comes down
to a Typekit disability. Just like some of the some
of the most openly obvious, you don't need to disclose
and cause a disability yourself to disclose to everybody around you.
Tarantino for missing a limb or you need to get
around a white cane. But then when there are those
that are listening, I suppose it comes down to the
person how confident they are to disclose that. Do they
(09:54):
need to disclose it? And if he don't disclose what
one of the reasons why she disclose it, because in
my opinion is the truth is always best. I think
it's always important to disclose it upfront, first and foremost,
because it gets that side of things at the way.
The advice I gave is just to be open. Like
I said, when you introduce it, tell them upfront. First
and foremost, they will probably respect you all for a
(10:15):
honest and then you will probably get people. Those I
will say is a personal issue. They're just not capable
as someone else at end of the day, that can
affect people as well.
S2 (10:24):
Jason, thank you so much. As ever, you were on
our first program, so it's so lovely to have you
bookending the series. And I love your advice about, you know,
maybe if you're confident enough going on the front foot
and that's your way of kind of taking ownership of
how you want to represent yourself,
S4 (10:41):
that's as ever
S2 (10:42):
fascinating and really
S4 (10:44):
helpful.
S6 (10:44):
Always a pleasure feeling sorry. Thank you so much for
having me on.
S1 (10:49):
You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits Where Tess and Polly
did you know? Vision Australia has produced a range of
stand up for your rights guides to support you to
understand and exercise your rights. For more information visit Vision
Australia dot org or call one 800 eight four seven
four double six. Vision Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity. How
(11:16):
would you like to support the blind community, those with
low vision or a print
S4 (11:19):
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S1 (11:21):
your business at the same
S4 (11:22):
time? You can.
S1 (11:23):
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or right across our network in Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Albury
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S4 (11:35):
You'll be surprised
S1 (11:36):
how affordable community radio is. Tell us how we can
S4 (11:40):
help you visit via
S1 (11:42):
radio dot org and click on the sponsorship link for
more info.
S2 (11:48):
We now have a panel of two guests, and both
Courtney McKay and Adelina Holloway will be familiar voices to
some of our listeners. They're both here to talk about
their experiences around identity and disclosure. Thank you both so
much for coming back. How would you two introduce yourselves?
Maybe starting with you, Courtney.
S4 (12:07):
Yeah, OK. So in this context, which is semi professional
and where blindness and low vision is a topic of conversation,
I might say that I'm a psychologist with lived experience
of blindness. I've got 15 years of experience working in
not for profits and local government, and I'm currently managing
Vision Australia's children and young people team in Queensland.
S2 (12:30):
Adelina, how would you introduce yourself?
S7 (12:32):
Usually, my guide dog Tilly does a bit of an
introduction in that I am visually impaired, so she and
people usually look at her, look at me, look at her,
look at me and kind of think, is she or
isn't she? Because I don't as vision impaired except that
I have her? I'll get asked a question straight up,
Is she mine? You disclose that point? Yes, she's mine.
And yes, I have low vision and I, but I
(12:55):
still can see. I can see you and I can
see my surrounds, and that usually relaxes the person. And
then I will also say that, you know, I'm a
middle aged mom of a couple of teenagers and fierce
advocate for different, not less. And and, you know, I'm
a kind of fairly confident, outspoken middle aged female who's
become more and more a fierce advocate for people with disability.
S5 (13:19):
So how
S4 (13:21):
big a part of your
S5 (13:22):
identity is your disability?
S7 (13:25):
You know what, it hadn't been until about three years
ago when I had a of or have had a
marriage breakdown, and it caused a lot of stress that
caused me a lot of vision loss and quite a
considerable amount of vision loss, and I really had to
realise that I couldn't hide from this anymore. It's around
about the same time I got the dog, so I
was a real pretender. I would pretend I was sighted,
(13:46):
not disclosed to many at all and still try and
be as sighted as I possibly could be. So I
never identified really until about three years ago. Now, to
answer your question, I probably identify all of the time.
S4 (13:59):
Yeah, it's definitely a big part of my life. Being
blonde sort of dictates how I do everything, how I move,
how I communicate. It's right at the forefront of how
I operate. It's not necessarily always at the forefront of
my mind, though. I just get on and do things.
But it's definitely the reason why I'm doing those things
in ways that differ from everyone around me.
S5 (14:20):
I think that makes a lot of sense. I think
new disability can really barriers to how much a
S4 (14:25):
part of your
S5 (14:27):
identity is, so it's wonderful to get to slightly different
S4 (14:30):
perspectives and how much is acceptance.
S2 (14:33):
And this is something we talked about with Jason as well.
How much is your own acceptance of your disability? A
key factor? Courtney, how about you?
S4 (14:42):
Yeah. So we've talked about grief in one of the
earlier episodes bargaining and denial, natural paths or natural states
associated with grief. A little bit like Adelina said. You're
entitled to your denial. You're entitled to try and work
around the disability as you're adjusting to it. But resistance
(15:03):
definitely burns a lot of energy, and at some point
I have come to the understanding that that energy is
better used on working towards what's good and possible for
me and the people I love. So getting on with
terms with reality is an important daily practice and I
try to engage in. If you are
S2 (15:21):
struggling with that, what are some of the kinds of
things that you can do to become more accepting of
your
S4 (15:27):
disability? Among the most effective things that I've done to
become more accepting is to rub shoulders with other people
with disabilities and people that I admire because of their
strong identification as somebody with a disability, their pride in
who they are and learn from them. That's really accelerated
(15:48):
some of my growth as a person and my ability
to be out in the world representing my community in
a way that, yeah, feels comfortable for me and you,
Adelina
S7 (15:59):
me trying to hide and cover up and pretend was
exhausting and absolutely exhausting, and I just didn't want to
do it anymore. And I realized when I started to
work back in Australia and work in the NDIS space,
and I was privileged to have a role where I
would stand up in front of people and tell them
how supports could change their lives. And I could do
(16:19):
that from a place of lived experience. So I realised that, no,
I didn't want to stand there and tell people what
I what I could say and what I could do,
but what I couldn't do and how I could do
it with support. So that's when I sort of started
by put my advocacy have had on really, you know,
now that I'm almost privileged to be in this position
now because I can change people's lives so by my
lived experience and how I can educate them on how
(16:42):
they can live a full life because often people in such.
A bad place, and I now use my voice to
be part way, change that for them and show them that, Hey,
you know what? It's possible, it's possible to still be
very empowered, especially as a woman. I speak a lot
with women to be empowered as a woman, and you
(17:02):
can still be a beautiful and desirable and well dressed
and wear those heeled boots in that dress and we
have a guide dog in your head. You know, that's
that's my passion, and that's what I try. So that
has really helped me come into my own as someone
with vision loss. Absolutely.
S2 (17:18):
I'm just really interested about, I guess, the change that's
come in around NDIS, where
S4 (17:24):
you have to talk
S2 (17:25):
about the things that you're not able to do in
order for that to be the understanding about what support
you need.
S4 (17:31):
How much do you think that's changed
S2 (17:33):
the dynamic of how you think about yourself?
S7 (17:36):
We have to now teach people how to speak the
language of the NDIS, and it's really hard for someone
to sit there and say, for instance, they ridiculously worded
some of these questions like, you know, there's a self-care section,
can you dress yourself? And everyone wants to say, yes,
of course I can dress myself. We have to teach
them how to say no. Yes, I can do it,
but I need assistance. In my case, yes, I can
(17:58):
dress myself, but I need help choosing color. I need
help putting makeup on in that then comes on top
of that. I need an occupational therapist. I need perhaps
someone to show me how to put makeup on. Is
a vision impaired woman. I need better lighting in my bathroom.
I need my magnification, so we need to change the
way people are thinking. So instead of just saying Yes,
I can do this myself, yes, I could do so,
but
S4 (18:17):
I need help. That's fascinating.
S2 (18:19):
Courtney, have you found any, I guess, changes about how
you feel about yourself or how you present yourself going
through the NDIS process?
S4 (18:27):
It's pretty common that when you are long term vision
impaired or you've had a disability of any kind for
a long time, you've become really good at work arounds
and everything that you do has been adjusted. You're using
tools using strategies that the average person on the street
couldn't even imagine. But because they've become every day to you,
(18:49):
you don't necessarily know how to articulate them, to break
them down into tiny little chunks and feed them to
somebody who has no experience of your disability. But that
is what you have to do. You have to be
able to articulate all of those work around. So you
can say, Well, yes, I can do this thing that
I require x y z in order to be able
(19:10):
to do that above and beyond what the average person does.
So for me to lead an ordinary life, I have
all of these adaptations, some of which will require funding
for me to be able to continue Adelina.
S5 (19:21):
You mentioned before the importance of emphasizing being different instead
of saying, Listen, can you tell us a little bit
about why that's important?
S7 (19:31):
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, in a nutshell, it's I
try to, you know, empower people with that thought that
you're not less than anyone else because you have a disability.
You just do things differently. You know, we we can
do anything that anyone else can within our limits of
having low vision. But we just as Courtney said, before
we just do it, we adapt the way we do it. So,
(19:53):
you know, we considered a computer and do our job,
but we need assistive technology to do that. You know,
I can I can walk to work and commute to
my workplace, but I need my dog beside me to
help me to do that. It's just those little tweaks
we have in life to now enable us to to
do things differently. But we are certainly no less than
anyone else
S2 (20:11):
on, Hey, how do you negotiate those boundaries around helping
people to understand a disability? What's not kind of taking
on the responsibility of being everyone's teachable moment? I know
that's something we've kind of touched on
S4 (20:22):
before,
S2 (20:23):
but that's a really tough thing to
S4 (20:24):
do. Yeah. And I thought of running a bit of
a cost benefit analysis when I bump into people. So
I'm looking at whether or not they have the capacity
to learn if they're deeply invested in a particular way
of seeing things, and that gives them a sense of power.
Then I know that it's probably not going to be
productive to push, you know, I come across a lot
(20:45):
of people that are just not that great at perceiving
and integrating new information generally. Sometimes it's time limits, so
it might only be a passing exchange. I will do
things differently then, as opposed to if we have a
bit more time to explore, and I'm also thinking about
my emotional reserves. So if I'm already depleted, then it
(21:06):
might not be worth trying to educate somebody when I'm
feeling like that versus when I have the energy to
do it. If it's service, I'll try to work with
a person directly the service provider. But if they're combative
and I sense they want to dominate me, then I'll
send the feedback up the line, hopefully to somebody who's
a little bit more reasonable. So it's about balancing my capacity,
(21:28):
their capacity and the impact on my community. Oh, that's
S2 (21:31):
fantastic. A fantastic kind of methodology to use.
S5 (21:35):
Finally, Adelaide, Matt and Courtney, what are some steps that
people could take to make it easier to disclose because
we know that disclosing can be very challenging? Adelina, would
you like to?
S7 (21:46):
Yeah, look. I think that something I've learned in disclosure
is using it as an opportunity to educate as well.
So when I disclosed, though, have done in the past. Sure.
Except I've got low vision, but I've just explained what
that what that what that looks like for me. And
I would let them know what I can see. You know,
I can see your face, I can see you standing
in front of me. I can tell you you're wearing
(22:06):
a dark color, but I probably can't see beyond that.
You know, just give me a little bit of a
context of what I can see. And just to give
them an understanding. And it makes it when I do that,
it tends to make them a little bit more comfortable. OK,
then I can look her in the eye and I
know she's going to make eye contact with me to
some degree. Or it also helps if I'm out and about,
(22:27):
especially in dimly lit situations. If I disclosed before I
go into the venue to someone who may not doesn't
know me very well or just met. You know, it's
it's just having the confidence to be able to explain
to people what, what, what you can see and how
they can help you. I a bunch of friends. I
was in Byron Bay once and one of my friends
pulled me back from not stepping outside of the car.
(22:48):
This before I had my dog and he screamed to
me and he was very, very mad with me. I've
known him since university and he said to me, Adalind,
we just need to know what you can and can't see,
so we know how to support you. So he swore.
I just said, So, you know, stop being so bloody
independent and tell us how otherwise you're going to get killed,
you know? So and that was a that was by
then they kind of did an intervention with me that
(23:09):
night and sort of said, You know, we we need
to know you're obviously not the woman you were at university. Clearly,
you can't see what you used to be able to see.
So we need to know now so we know how
to support you. And then it just takes the pressure
off us as well. And I never looked at it
like that before. I've had to really think about how
it affects the other person and how it affects those
(23:29):
around me.
S4 (23:30):
Yeah, I think when people acquire vision loss for the
first time or they're new to disability generally, that there's
a real aversion to joining the community and identifying as
somebody who's one of many with with a disability. But
one of the benefits, I guess, of being part of
our community is that you get to review a range
(23:51):
of approaches, what other people have done before, and you
can choose what things might look like for you. And
that includes in relation to how you disclosure disability. I
would recommend that people think about different situations because it
will vary, as we've talked about already today. And I
also think people need to be gentle with themselves because
you'll be learning about how to do this well for yourself,
(24:13):
for the rest of your life, and you'll choose and
change your mind over and over and over again.
S5 (24:18):
That is a wonderful note to end on. Adelina Courtney,
thank you so much for being here and sharing your
lived experience with this is just being such
S7 (24:26):
a privilege chatting to you
S4 (24:27):
and wonderful to be here and congratulations on a great series.
S7 (24:30):
Guys, thank you for having me. Have a be a
part of it. I've really enjoyed it and I hope
it helps lots of people out there. I really do.
Well done, guys.
S2 (24:37):
Thank you both so much and Jason too. And as ever,
this is just the start of the conversation about identity,
community and disclosure. And you can visit the Vision Australia
website for some useful resources and information, including an article
with some tips about how you can dispose your disability
to employees.
S4 (24:56):
We've just finished
S5 (24:57):
our last episode of Tommy. Can I don't know what
to think about this, but we could not have done
it without some very special people. I have the great
honour of first and foremost, thanking our wonderful collection of guests. We,
I mean, look, I'm sure that people would love to
(25:17):
listen to Polly and I just chattering white. We certainly
do as
S2 (25:20):
short as sure.
S4 (25:23):
But yes,
S5 (25:24):
for those who don't feel like listening to us, just
having our guests have brought something just fantastic for podcast.
Thank you to everyone who participated in the box pops
just added some fantastic color. Thank you to our listeners.
Our wonderful listeners mean what would be the point of
creating a podcast that you to listen to us and
(25:46):
tell us where we're going right or going wrong? And finally,
I speak on behalf of Polly and myself. It is
most important, so much so very important to thank our
wonderful producer, Jace. You're a huge shout out today because
he has just been a wonderful source of support and expertise.
He holds us in line cases in line when when
(26:07):
Polly and I are having too much fun and not easy.
S2 (26:10):
Not an easy task.
S5 (26:12):
No, it's really not and really more than anything else
we could not have done without him.
S4 (26:17):
So thank you, guys.
S1 (26:19):
Thanks, guys. It's the lived experience of our guests that
really pulled it together. I really appreciate everyone's
S4 (26:23):
efforts, completely stressed
S2 (26:26):
and remembered. This episode and early episodes of Nothing's Off
Limits can be downloaded from the Vision Australia website. Just
go to Vision Australia dot org and type. Nothing's off
limits into the search engine and you'll find our web
page and you can catch up with all 10 episodes,
as well as resources that go along with them. And
we'd love to. Your feedback about the series of what
(26:48):
you liked, what you didn't like and what you suggest
should there be a second series? You can reach us
on nothing's off limits at Vision Australia dot org that's
nothing's off limits at Vision Australia. Org No apostrophe upon
apologies there for the grammar experts. But we do hope
to be with you again soon. Until then, thank you
(27:08):
so much for joining us for the show where nothing's
off limits.
S1 (27:17):
That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of
efficient Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant.
Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting V.J. Radio,
dot org and access all there is to know about
our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia
(27:38):
dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode,
but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support,
so please share this podcast with just one person today
and brighten our day or write us on your preferred
podcast platform. Bye for now.
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