August 31, 2023 • 24 mins
Former Matilda Michelle Heyman is featured in the latest episode of our podcast On Side.
Michelle played for Australia 61 times between 2010-2018, booting 20 goals before a series of injuries forced her to retire from international duties in 2019.
When Cortnee Vine’s penalty kick hit the back of the net against France, the whole of Australia roared as one. The recognition and support was a long time coming, says the former Australian striker.
“This is something that I think every single Matilda or every single female athlete has wanted for such a long time, she says. “To see something so special like our World Cup, to see those numbers, to see the amount of people in the stands on home soil is incredible. We've pushed for this. We've tried to sell our brand for a very long time.”
She says the support the team received from other sporting teams – men and women - was incredible.
“Seeing the Boomers with all their jerseys on and changing the time of their game just so they could watch the girls, that's something special.”
The W-League all-time record goal-scorer also talks about the Matildas' inspiring run to the semis, the growth of female sport and what keeps driving her on the pitch.
Support the show: https://www.sportintegrity.gov.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
It's been the most amazing month that I've ever been
a part of. This is something that I think every
single Matilda, or every single female athlete has wanted for
such a long time. And to see something so special,
like our World Cup, to see those numbers, to see
the amount of people in the stands on home soil
is incredible. I didn't even know that the Matildas existed.
(00:22):
I literally found out about the Matildas maybe a month
before I got called into the Matildas. I had no
idea that there was an Australian team. I think we're
still a long way ago and we have to continue to,
you know, fight those little battles because if we don't
do it, then nothing's ever going to change. I used
to cop it a lot, especially for being a gay athlete.
(00:42):
People would tell me to read the Bible constantly. Even
saw like the boomers with all their jerseys on and,
you know, changing the time of their game just so
they could watch the girls. I'm like, that's something special.
S2 (01:04):
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S3 (01:20):
Hello and welcome to onside I'm Tim Gavel. And today
we're looking at the momentum generated by the Matildas success
at the World Cup. And joining us is former Matilda
Michelle Heyman Michelle played 61 games for the Matildas scoring
20 goals. Michelle, it's been extraordinary to see what the
Matildas have been able to achieve record ratings, record crowds
(01:40):
and a genuine movement for change. It's incredible.
S1 (01:44):
It's been the most amazing month that I've ever been
a part of. Um, this is something that I think
every single Matilda or every single female athlete has wanted
for such a long time. And to see something so special,
like our World Cup, to see those numbers, to see
the amount of people in the stands on home soil
is incredible. Um, we've pushed for this. We've tried to
(02:06):
sell our brand for a very long time, and it
was so nice to finally see, you know, the rest
of Australia understand how hard it is for women athletes
to make themselves look like a professional male athlete. Um,
you know, by having the large crowd, the large numbers.
So being able to have that on home soil, I
(02:27):
think it's definitely like hopefully going to change the way
for women's sport within Australia because.
S3 (02:32):
Let's face it, there are very few full time professional
footballers in women's ranks in Australia. They have to go overseas,
you know, so the hope is that we can have
full time professional sports people in Australia, um, in not
just your sport but but also in basketball.
S1 (02:48):
Cricket 100%. Um, because I still talk to a lot
of the girls in that team, and most of them
would rather be playing in Australia than overseas. But right now,
playing overseas is where financially you're more sound and the
better quality of sport over there at the moment, especially
for football. The level is a lot higher than what
it is in Australia, but if we were able to,
(03:09):
you know, make, um, Australian football financially great for the
players to come back, um, I reckon you would have
a lot more Matildas knocking down the door to be
back in the A leagues. Um, but again, financially it
always comes back to money. And if you can make,
you know, ten times more money to go play overseas
and what you can in your own country, you've got
to do it for, you know, your career's only max
(03:31):
ten years long. Um, so you have to jump at
it when you can.
S3 (03:34):
Because let's have a look at a couple of stats. Um,
you played in the 2015 Women's World Cup and made
it through to the quarter finals. How much did you
earn for making it through to the quarter finals as
part of the Matildas?
S1 (03:48):
$750, um, was our big paycheck that we got. So,
you know, within eight years time, when you look at
today and what the girls went home with, definitely it's improved. Um,
but again, when you look at that, compared to the
males football, there's we're still a long way away.
S3 (04:06):
What do you think that is? Is it because males
are in charge of sport, or is it because, um,
you know, it just hasn't been accepted properly by both
the media and the sporting community?
S1 (04:17):
I think definitely it hasn't been accepted. I feel like
the amount of money that they must have put into
the marketing for this World Cup, um, is the most
that we've ever actually spent on women's sport in Australia,
because if you look at it, there was every pretty
much every Matilda was on a billboard somewhere. They were
blasted on big buildings. They were in every single newspaper.
(04:41):
They were always talked about on social media. So there
was this big hype for, you know, 6 to 3
months of Matildas. And as soon as day one started
and we got 75,000 plus in that stadium like. The marketing.
What they put behind it to fill those seats was incredible.
I look at when we went to the World Cup,
(05:02):
there was nothing. No one really cared. It was a
little bit of a social media post on Instagram and
Facebook and maybe, you know, a couple of newspapers jumped
on board to have a a good, you know, conversation
about it. But other than that, it was nothing like
we I don't even think we're on TV. I don't
think anyone took the rights. No one wanted to host
it through any Australian network. Um, which was a bit frustrating.
(05:27):
But the sad thing is, even listening to FIFA at
the moment, they talk about, um, you know, not the
TV rights, like, you know, channel ten didn't want to
be a part of it. So many companies didn't want
to be a part of this World Cup. And it
kind of like slapped them in the face because it
was so popular. Um, and it's the highest ranking. So,
you know, channel seven done really well. The one. I
(05:49):
think it started off with, you know, only a X
amount of games that they were showing, and then they
really started to see the hype and we're like, oh, okay,
we'll add some more free to air games on. But
the likes of channel seven and Optus Sport getting behind
women's sport has definitely, you know, changed the way it
was from when it was my World Cup. So I
think the more media the more advertisement and just that
(06:09):
marketing um definitely helps. And you know, the likes of
having Sam Kerr, her name, her brand is well known.
So if we can get you know, I think now
Mackenzie Arnold has that type of brand. Now they're calling
her the brick wall. So it's like her being injured
for this World Cup kind of allowed everyone else to
build a brand. So hopefully now everyone knows who the
(06:31):
other Matildas are and we can start selling it that way.
Because I think women are so good at selling things. Um,
we're great people. We're easy to talk to. We're very
good in the market world. So it's like just hoping
companies jump on board now to see if we can
improve on that side of things.
S3 (06:46):
Just on the number of coaches that are women, too.
I mean, the hope is that this generates more interest
from women wanting to become coaches of women's sporting teams because,
for instance, in Canberra, there's only one Nicole Begg in
terms of coaching a women's team in in the top
tier competition in Canberra.
S1 (07:05):
Yeah. And it's and it's pretty sad because there's still no, um,
funding for coaches. Um, even if you look at the
A leagues, like I don't think any of the coaches
are getting paid more than 10 to $20,000 for a
head coach job. And if you look overseas, they're on
300 to 500,000. You know, I wonder what Angie's getting paid,
you know, to be a coach overseas. So you look
(07:26):
at that but you look at our league. There's just
no support within coaching. So I look at I'm like,
why would you want to become a coach? There's no
career path for you. There's a there's a hobby if
you want to jump on the hobby train. Um, but
when you can't financially look after yourself from doing something
that you love, that's when you know it starts to
get a little bit frustrating. Because again, we just don't
(07:48):
have funding in certain places to grow the game.
S3 (07:51):
Just tell me about your career when you started on
the South Coast. And as a young player, I think
about 11 years of age. Did you have ambitions to
be a Matilda back then?
S1 (08:01):
No, I didn't even know that the Matildas existed. Um,
I literally found out about the Matildas maybe a month
before I got called into the Matildas. I had no
idea that there was an Australian team. But a.
S3 (08:13):
Month before you.
S1 (08:14):
Got. Yeah, finished my W League season and won a
few awards. And the head coach, Tom Sermanni at the
time asked me to come into a camp and I
had to ask my teammates. I was like, who? Who's
this guy? And I was like, what am I doing?
And what's a camp? I didn't know what a camp was. Um, yeah.
And that's kind of how my journey started.
S3 (08:33):
Had you won the Julie Dolan Medal? And that's the
highest honour. Yeah. And yet there was no awareness that
you could be a Matilda.
S1 (08:41):
No. And I didn't even know who she was. And
that breaks my heart because, like, we're very good friends now.
So I look at it from, I think that was
maybe what year was that? 20. Ten. Not long ago. Yeah.
And within, you know, 13 years I've managed to, you know,
I met her that day. And then now we've become
pretty good friends. So it's nice to, you know, still
(09:03):
have that connection within the women's sport. But yeah, I
had no idea about the Matildas. And it's I'm not
the only Matilda who didn't know who the Matildas were.
If you were to ask a handful of them, probably
none of them, maybe 50% would have been like, oh yeah,
I actually supported the Matildas before making the Matildas. I
wanted to be one and it would be the younger generation,
but I knew Steph Catley, she just said it in
(09:25):
her latest article. She didn't know who the Matildas were
either and I'm like okay. And she's what, 6 or
7 years younger than me. So I'm like that's a
big generation gap again.
S3 (09:34):
Well you wonder given the awareness and the hype around
the Matildas, now, they're going to be a whole lot
of young women wanting to become Matildas in the future.
And hopefully there are facilities, there are coaches, there's integrity
frameworks to guide them through 100%.
S1 (09:51):
We need that. And I think, you know, that's a
big problem that we don't have right now. Um, I
think most of the A-League clubs are, you know, we
still share a lot with the men's teams. And you know,
unlucky for us, Canberra, we don't have a men's team
at all. So our foundations and our facilities are we're
lucky we're training out of the AIS. But at the
same time it would be really cool to have our
(10:12):
own football, you know, home of football within Canberra and
to be able to go to our field and have,
like all our staff there and the team being able
to just be comfortable in one spot. But for us, um,
I think we're still a long way ago and we
have to continue to, you know, fight those little battles
because if we don't do it, then nothing's ever going
(10:33):
to change. But, you know, fingers crossed with what the
Matildas have done will definitely bring in some more funding. Um,
because that's the biggest thing we need. We need money
within the game.
S3 (10:42):
Like they're already talking about facilities, for instance, because, you know,
most of the facilities are built for men's teams. Yeah.
And the women having having to share.
S1 (10:51):
Yeah. Like if you walk into the bathroom and it
looks like a men's bathroom, um, there's that's a simple.
S3 (10:57):
That's a simple thing.
S1 (10:57):
That's a simple thing. And that's like we used to
have to ask constantly. I'm like, can we please have
bins in the bathroom? Can we please have certain things
within in this stadium? Because there's nothing there for women. Um,
and it's quite sad when you think about it, that
every single stadium built within Australia was only built for men, um,
and only 1 to 2 teams when it could have
(11:18):
been built for at least four different teams. I remember
when I was playing at Central Coast Mariners and we
couldn't train or play at, um, their stadium because it
only had home and away Changeroom um, so if the
men played after us, guess where we got put in
a tent out in the car park? Yeah, where everyone
(11:38):
would watch us get changed in the car park because
there was no room for women to be inside the stadium.
So many aspects.
S3 (11:46):
Not not a lot has changed.
S1 (11:47):
No.
S3 (11:48):
Like, no, no. That was when you were playing for
the Mariners before coming back to Canberra and before you
went to Adelaide. But yeah.
S1 (11:54):
It's it's sad when you really look at it. Um,
and I hope, you know, we just got that $200
million funding. So fingers crossed. You know that's going to
be around all sports though. All female sports. But you
hope that, you know, some of that money goes within
the facility. And you know to the grassroots of football
because we have to start now. I'm like, we're we're rolling.
(12:16):
The iron is hot. I'm like, we've got to jump
on board and we've got to, you know, invest in
women's football.
S3 (12:20):
And with more women coming through, as I mentioned a
moment ago, it's important that they have the right education, uh,
around integrity, ethical decision making.
S1 (12:29):
Definitely.
S3 (12:29):
The rules. So like there's.
S1 (12:31):
100, there's a lot to.
S3 (12:32):
Learn. Yeah. Pretty quickly.
S1 (12:33):
Yeah. Because, you know, looking at my junior years and
I was in a boys team. So I got, you know,
I was lucky back then you just rocked up to,
you know, your game with your boots on and your
shins on already, and you just go jump out of
the car and you start playing. But now I think
about it and I'm like, oh God, I used to
always just have to, like, change my t shirt. And,
you know, either hide behind this, the canteen or, you know,
(12:54):
do something like away from the rest of the boys
because there was no room for me to be in
the change room.
S3 (12:59):
Yeah. So can you see a almost a light bulb
moment now in Australian sport? People are saying, oh, you know,
women should be treated fairly with parity.
S1 (13:09):
And it's it's nice that people are just talking. I'm like,
you know I think that's super important because not a
lot of people understood or knew how women retreated in
sport for, you know, for a very long time. Um,
the standards, we definitely are second class citizens, women athletes,
and it has been for a very long time. So
if we can change that and move into a more positive,
(13:31):
looking forward direction, then the next generation of kids coming through,
it's going to be a wonderful time to be joining,
you know, a team and playing team sport. Um, because
it's it made me who I am. And I think
it's one of the best things for any human to
be a part of the team because of all the
skills that you learn within it.
S3 (13:49):
Is there much sexism, do you think? From mile administrators
coaches that still needs to be dealt with. We've obviously
seen the fallout from the Spanish women's team.
S1 (14:01):
Definitely. Um, like, I've had these conversations even with our
coaching staff within Canberra. Um, and it's just having that
knowledge we even now have, um, you know, the Pride
Cup and Pride in Sport come out and talk to
us and the coaching staff on how to just be
a human and to be able to talk and respect everybody. Um, because,
(14:25):
you know, back in the day, that wasn't a thing. Um,
so coaches are learning to this day, especially if you're
a lot older. Um, but again, it's just all about
that communication. It's just having that knowledge, um, and being
able to be present with the times. But yeah, I think. Yeah,
I think there's a lot to be done within that space.
S3 (14:45):
I guess it shows a fair bit of courage, though,
to stand up and address that sort of thing. Because
you are an older player, you're able to do it.
But I would imagine that not always the case with
younger players.
S1 (14:55):
Yeah, definitely. Um, and yeah, it's a different generation. Um,
when I look at my players, the new one was
born in 2006, and I was like, cool. That's when
I finished school. So it's like, um, the age gap
is getting even bigger now because I'm getting a lot
older than what I should be and still playing. But,
you know, it's it's being that role model and trying to,
(15:16):
you know, be able to be a sounding board for
my coaches and for my players. I'm kind of like
the the girl in the middle who just likes to
listen to everyone's conversation to make sure that everyone feels
safe and comfortable.
S3 (15:29):
Do you think that the current generation realize what you
went through or what your generation went through? For instance,
2015 World Cup $750 for making it through to the
quarter final. Do you think that there is a realization
that there were people there that dug the well and
even before you?
S1 (15:47):
Yeah, I look at it and I, you know, my
best mates, Caitlin Munoz, who was in the Matildas ten
years before me and she never made a dollar. So
I think I'm lucky that I have a great relationship
with her because I saw her struggles, and then she
is grateful for me because she's like, well, at least
you got paid and you got to do something. You
got to get a little bit of a career out
(16:07):
of it. Um, but that $750 remark, when I looked
on social media, I've had, you know, some people be like, oh,
that's so sad. And then some people are like, well,
that's more than what athletics gets. And that's more like
everyone has to judge to something else. But it was
more along the lines of $750 to what the men
(16:28):
got that year. I think.
S3 (16:30):
In comparison.
S1 (16:31):
Like the Socceroos didn't even make it out of the
group stage and all of them walked away with $300,000.
And I'm like, okay, well, here we are in quarterfinals.
With that amount of money, I'm like, it just doesn't
make sense in my eyes. But the amount of training
that we do is the exact same as what the
males do. Um, but yeah, we just don't see the dollar.
S3 (16:52):
One area I wanted to ask you about was obviously
with the greater exposure comes greater pressure. And you mentioned
there social media. Uh, are sportswomen equipped, do you think,
to cope with. You know, the sudden rise, I think,
in fame and exposure and, and suddenly people feel as
(17:13):
though it's okay to have a crack at them on
social media and, you know, if they miss a goal
or they don't kick a goal or they don't save
a goal.
S1 (17:19):
Yeah, like I think women are strong and have to
be and have been for a very long time. Um,
they know how to present themselves on social media, and
we know not to really read what people say to
us because, you know, I used to cop it a lot,
especially for being a gay athlete. Um, people would tell
me to read the Bible constantly, and I just never
(17:40):
understood it was a book I didn't want to be
able to read. Um, but I just believe in women
because we've always had to have that second job. We've
always had to, you know, be able to juggle as
many things as possible, juggling, you know, our own personal
social media and being able to handle criticism just comes
with the game. Um, and we get criticized from our
coaches more than what we get criticized by the people
(18:01):
in the stands. So I think there's like. Part of
us that know we're like we're the ones on the field.
We know what we're doing. You're just jealous because you're
sitting in the stands. Say whatever you need to say. Um,
but we're doing our job and we're trying our best.
So it's that kind of mentality. We try not to
let things get to us, because if you do, then
that's when the problems start to start to just unravel
(18:24):
and roll everywhere. Um, having.
S3 (18:26):
Known you for a while over the years, you're one
of the more grounded people that I've ever known. And
you're quite comfortable in talking about, you know, your own life. Yeah.
Is there always that worry that I don't want to
expose myself too much? I.
S1 (18:42):
I can't not it's weird. Um, I like to be
as honest as I can, and sometimes it just gets
me into trouble as well, because my mum always told
me to, like, speak your mind. And if you have
an opinion, just say it. So I have been doing
that since I was little, so I don't think it
could ever change. But you know, I think that's why
I'm not within the Matildas. I think that's, you know,
(19:03):
the way that I speak sometimes. It's just my, you know,
make people feel different because I'm am so honest. I'm
not a yes man kind of girl anymore. And I
was when I was quite younger. But now I'm like,
the more that I can speak my own truth and
be honest with who I am, that's when I feel
the happiest. And when I'm the happiest, that's when I
(19:24):
play good football and you see me smiling, running around
on the field. So it works for me, and I'll
always just be as honest as I can.
S3 (19:31):
When you say there's been backlash at times, how do
you handle that?
S1 (19:36):
I just laugh because I'm just like, well, what's the point?
I'm like, you know, it's my own personal opinion. You
can have your own opinion and that's fine. Um, I'm
not here to have arguments with people. It was just
this is my thought, and that's why I said it. Um,
and then, yeah, I just kind of let it go,
and then people just bring things up constantly. Um, but again, I'm.
(19:57):
I am who I am, and I'm not going to
change that.
S3 (20:00):
How do you reckon male sportspeople have found the sudden
rise of the Matildas? You know, everybody's talking about a
Mary Fowler Steph Catley. They're talking about Hayley Raso. They're
talking about Sam Kerr I.
S1 (20:13):
Think it's awesome. Um because like you even saw like
the boomers with all their jerseys on and you know
changing the time of their game just so they could
watch the girls and like that's something special because I
know that all the male counterparts have always wanted women
to be in the headlight as well. Like they they
wanted to fill stadiums who would ever play sport and
(20:33):
not want to play in front of people. That's the
whole purpose of doing what we do. Um, so I
think they're all on board. They love it. Like being
able to see, you know, there was film of like
the Panthers and everyone just like cheering and screaming about
the penalty shootout. And I'm like, that's what Australians are about.
We are one of the best, you know, countries in
the world where we're loving, we support each other. We
(20:54):
everyone pretty much barracks for every single code within the game. Um,
so to have that support from the males is just
it's awesome because it's always been there. It just hasn't
been out into the public.
S3 (21:06):
Great for young women too, because there used to be
that saying, didn't there? That you can't be what you
can't see. Suddenly they're able to see it, and you
would imagine that it's not just good for young women
wanting to be footballers soccer players, but right across the board,
women feel empowered to, okay, this is what I want
to do in life.
S1 (21:23):
It's awesome. Like I love being able to, you know,
turn on the TV now when you see the NRL
debut on. And I'm just like, thank goodness. I was like, God,
if that was on when I was 18, I would
have played that sport for sure because I grew up
playing touch football as well and I loved the NRL,
like that was my sport that I watched. I and
now for me to be able to see those girls
(21:44):
going out there hitting really hard and like, you know,
loving what they're doing, it inspires, it inspires me to play.
I'm a little bit too old now. I think it
would hurt my body a bit much. But you know,
if that's inspiring me, then of course it's going to
be inspiring. You know, people younger than me to go
out and, you know, go play that sport. So to
see more women on TV and in the media, um,
(22:06):
it's only the best thing that can happen for us.
S3 (22:08):
As a final question, how do we keep this momentum going?
Because people are talking about putting more money into facilities,
more money for women playing sport. How do you keep
it going? Because there will be a time when people say,
oh yeah, the Matildas, they played well. Um, it was
great to watch them in the World Cup, but we've
moved on. How do you keep it going and and
capitalize on it. Do you think it's.
S1 (22:29):
It's a very hard one. Um, what I'm trying to
even push here in Canberra is, you know, come out
to the games, come out to McKellar Park, come show like,
come support us, just buy a membership, be a part
of it if you can. Um, we will entertain you.
It's always a fun day out at McKellar to watch,
you know, Canberra United play. So I'm like, that's the
way that I'm looking at it. Um, just trying to
(22:51):
bring people out. Especially because Covid is gone now. You know,
we're allowed out. We might as well enjoy it. It's
a summer sport, so we're like, you might as well
come out. Enjoy the nice sunshine. There's you know, there's beers.
There's everything. Like there's a lot of people having fun
but no one knows about it. And again this like
I said from the beginning, comes back down to that marketing.
(23:11):
And if no one knows that we're playing, um, then
that's that's the sad thing. So it's trying right now
while the iron's hot, is to get as much information
about every single code within Canberra, within your state to,
you know, jump on board and to push it. Um,
I was having a talk with Cricket the other day,
and even they're thinking of the same thing. They're like, okay, well,
(23:33):
because football is doing so well right now, like, how
are we going to allow cricket to do just as well?
Like and they're like, well, we need to make sure
people know that we're playing and where we're playing and
these days and things like that. Like if you walk
down the street, there's not a lot of advertisement for
any female sports within Canberra. Um, but we do have,
you know, six professional teams and there's nothing about us
(23:56):
right now. So I'm like, we need to start pushing
that and seeing more of us in the papers and
on social media. Um, and I think that's the only
way that we can continue to make it, you know,
hot for as long as possible and get.
S3 (24:07):
The corporates on board because they realise that you're very
good role models.
S1 (24:10):
100%. I'm like, yeah, just sponsor us, please. Great.
S3 (24:15):
Michelle, thanks very much for joining on site. It's been
a pleasure talking to you today.
S1 (24:18):
It's been the best. Thank you.
S2 (24:22):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport integrity.gov Edu. For more information on Sport
Integrity Australia, please visit our website at Sport integrity.gov. Edu
(24:43):
or check out our Clean Sport app.
It's been the most amazing month that I've ever been
a part of. This is something that I think every
single Matilda, or every single female athlete has wanted for
such a long time. And to see something so special,
like our World Cup, to see those numbers, to see
the amount of people in the stands on home soil
is incredible. I didn't even know that the Matildas existed.
(00:22):
I literally found out about the Matildas maybe a month
before I got called into the Matildas. I had no
idea that there was an Australian team. I think we're
still a long way ago and we have to continue to,
you know, fight those little battles because if we don't
do it, then nothing's ever going to change. I used
to cop it a lot, especially for being a gay athlete.
(00:42):
People would tell me to read the Bible constantly. Even
saw like the boomers with all their jerseys on and,
you know, changing the time of their game just so
they could watch the girls. I'm like, that's something special.
S2 (01:04):
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S3 (01:20):
Hello and welcome to onside I'm Tim Gavel. And today
we're looking at the momentum generated by the Matildas success
at the World Cup. And joining us is former Matilda
Michelle Heyman Michelle played 61 games for the Matildas scoring
20 goals. Michelle, it's been extraordinary to see what the
Matildas have been able to achieve record ratings, record crowds
(01:40):
and a genuine movement for change. It's incredible.
S1 (01:44):
It's been the most amazing month that I've ever been
a part of. Um, this is something that I think
every single Matilda or every single female athlete has wanted
for such a long time. And to see something so special,
like our World Cup, to see those numbers, to see
the amount of people in the stands on home soil
is incredible. Um, we've pushed for this. We've tried to
(02:06):
sell our brand for a very long time, and it
was so nice to finally see, you know, the rest
of Australia understand how hard it is for women athletes
to make themselves look like a professional male athlete. Um,
you know, by having the large crowd, the large numbers.
So being able to have that on home soil, I
(02:27):
think it's definitely like hopefully going to change the way
for women's sport within Australia because.
S3 (02:32):
Let's face it, there are very few full time professional
footballers in women's ranks in Australia. They have to go overseas,
you know, so the hope is that we can have
full time professional sports people in Australia, um, in not
just your sport but but also in basketball.
S1 (02:48):
Cricket 100%. Um, because I still talk to a lot
of the girls in that team, and most of them
would rather be playing in Australia than overseas. But right now,
playing overseas is where financially you're more sound and the
better quality of sport over there at the moment, especially
for football. The level is a lot higher than what
it is in Australia, but if we were able to,
(03:09):
you know, make, um, Australian football financially great for the
players to come back, um, I reckon you would have
a lot more Matildas knocking down the door to be
back in the A leagues. Um, but again, financially it
always comes back to money. And if you can make,
you know, ten times more money to go play overseas
and what you can in your own country, you've got
to do it for, you know, your career's only max
(03:31):
ten years long. Um, so you have to jump at
it when you can.
S3 (03:34):
Because let's have a look at a couple of stats. Um,
you played in the 2015 Women's World Cup and made
it through to the quarter finals. How much did you
earn for making it through to the quarter finals as
part of the Matildas?
S1 (03:48):
$750, um, was our big paycheck that we got. So,
you know, within eight years time, when you look at
today and what the girls went home with, definitely it's improved. Um,
but again, when you look at that, compared to the
males football, there's we're still a long way away.
S3 (04:06):
What do you think that is? Is it because males
are in charge of sport, or is it because, um,
you know, it just hasn't been accepted properly by both
the media and the sporting community?
S1 (04:17):
I think definitely it hasn't been accepted. I feel like
the amount of money that they must have put into
the marketing for this World Cup, um, is the most
that we've ever actually spent on women's sport in Australia,
because if you look at it, there was every pretty
much every Matilda was on a billboard somewhere. They were
blasted on big buildings. They were in every single newspaper.
(04:41):
They were always talked about on social media. So there
was this big hype for, you know, 6 to 3
months of Matildas. And as soon as day one started
and we got 75,000 plus in that stadium like. The marketing.
What they put behind it to fill those seats was incredible.
I look at when we went to the World Cup,
(05:02):
there was nothing. No one really cared. It was a
little bit of a social media post on Instagram and
Facebook and maybe, you know, a couple of newspapers jumped
on board to have a a good, you know, conversation
about it. But other than that, it was nothing like
we I don't even think we're on TV. I don't
think anyone took the rights. No one wanted to host
it through any Australian network. Um, which was a bit frustrating.
(05:27):
But the sad thing is, even listening to FIFA at
the moment, they talk about, um, you know, not the
TV rights, like, you know, channel ten didn't want to
be a part of it. So many companies didn't want
to be a part of this World Cup. And it
kind of like slapped them in the face because it
was so popular. Um, and it's the highest ranking. So,
you know, channel seven done really well. The one. I
(05:49):
think it started off with, you know, only a X
amount of games that they were showing, and then they
really started to see the hype and we're like, oh, okay,
we'll add some more free to air games on. But
the likes of channel seven and Optus Sport getting behind
women's sport has definitely, you know, changed the way it
was from when it was my World Cup. So I
think the more media the more advertisement and just that
(06:09):
marketing um definitely helps. And you know, the likes of
having Sam Kerr, her name, her brand is well known.
So if we can get you know, I think now
Mackenzie Arnold has that type of brand. Now they're calling
her the brick wall. So it's like her being injured
for this World Cup kind of allowed everyone else to
build a brand. So hopefully now everyone knows who the
(06:31):
other Matildas are and we can start selling it that way.
Because I think women are so good at selling things. Um,
we're great people. We're easy to talk to. We're very
good in the market world. So it's like just hoping
companies jump on board now to see if we can
improve on that side of things.
S3 (06:46):
Just on the number of coaches that are women, too.
I mean, the hope is that this generates more interest
from women wanting to become coaches of women's sporting teams because,
for instance, in Canberra, there's only one Nicole Begg in
terms of coaching a women's team in in the top
tier competition in Canberra.
S1 (07:05):
Yeah. And it's and it's pretty sad because there's still no, um,
funding for coaches. Um, even if you look at the
A leagues, like I don't think any of the coaches
are getting paid more than 10 to $20,000 for a
head coach job. And if you look overseas, they're on
300 to 500,000. You know, I wonder what Angie's getting paid,
you know, to be a coach overseas. So you look
(07:26):
at that but you look at our league. There's just
no support within coaching. So I look at I'm like,
why would you want to become a coach? There's no
career path for you. There's a there's a hobby if
you want to jump on the hobby train. Um, but
when you can't financially look after yourself from doing something
that you love, that's when you know it starts to
get a little bit frustrating. Because again, we just don't
(07:48):
have funding in certain places to grow the game.
S3 (07:51):
Just tell me about your career when you started on
the South Coast. And as a young player, I think
about 11 years of age. Did you have ambitions to
be a Matilda back then?
S1 (08:01):
No, I didn't even know that the Matildas existed. Um,
I literally found out about the Matildas maybe a month
before I got called into the Matildas. I had no
idea that there was an Australian team. But a.
S3 (08:13):
Month before you.
S1 (08:14):
Got. Yeah, finished my W League season and won a
few awards. And the head coach, Tom Sermanni at the
time asked me to come into a camp and I
had to ask my teammates. I was like, who? Who's
this guy? And I was like, what am I doing?
And what's a camp? I didn't know what a camp was. Um, yeah.
And that's kind of how my journey started.
S3 (08:33):
Had you won the Julie Dolan Medal? And that's the
highest honour. Yeah. And yet there was no awareness that
you could be a Matilda.
S1 (08:41):
No. And I didn't even know who she was. And
that breaks my heart because, like, we're very good friends now.
So I look at it from, I think that was
maybe what year was that? 20. Ten. Not long ago. Yeah.
And within, you know, 13 years I've managed to, you know,
I met her that day. And then now we've become
pretty good friends. So it's nice to, you know, still
(09:03):
have that connection within the women's sport. But yeah, I
had no idea about the Matildas. And it's I'm not
the only Matilda who didn't know who the Matildas were.
If you were to ask a handful of them, probably
none of them, maybe 50% would have been like, oh yeah,
I actually supported the Matildas before making the Matildas. I
wanted to be one and it would be the younger generation,
but I knew Steph Catley, she just said it in
(09:25):
her latest article. She didn't know who the Matildas were
either and I'm like okay. And she's what, 6 or
7 years younger than me. So I'm like that's a
big generation gap again.
S3 (09:34):
Well you wonder given the awareness and the hype around
the Matildas, now, they're going to be a whole lot
of young women wanting to become Matildas in the future.
And hopefully there are facilities, there are coaches, there's integrity
frameworks to guide them through 100%.
S1 (09:51):
We need that. And I think, you know, that's a
big problem that we don't have right now. Um, I
think most of the A-League clubs are, you know, we
still share a lot with the men's teams. And you know,
unlucky for us, Canberra, we don't have a men's team
at all. So our foundations and our facilities are we're
lucky we're training out of the AIS. But at the
same time it would be really cool to have our
(10:12):
own football, you know, home of football within Canberra and
to be able to go to our field and have,
like all our staff there and the team being able
to just be comfortable in one spot. But for us, um,
I think we're still a long way ago and we
have to continue to, you know, fight those little battles
because if we don't do it, then nothing's ever going
(10:33):
to change. But, you know, fingers crossed with what the
Matildas have done will definitely bring in some more funding. Um,
because that's the biggest thing we need. We need money
within the game.
S3 (10:42):
Like they're already talking about facilities, for instance, because, you know,
most of the facilities are built for men's teams. Yeah.
And the women having having to share.
S1 (10:51):
Yeah. Like if you walk into the bathroom and it
looks like a men's bathroom, um, there's that's a simple.
S3 (10:57):
That's a simple thing.
S1 (10:57):
That's a simple thing. And that's like we used to
have to ask constantly. I'm like, can we please have
bins in the bathroom? Can we please have certain things
within in this stadium? Because there's nothing there for women. Um,
and it's quite sad when you think about it, that
every single stadium built within Australia was only built for men, um,
and only 1 to 2 teams when it could have
(11:18):
been built for at least four different teams. I remember
when I was playing at Central Coast Mariners and we
couldn't train or play at, um, their stadium because it
only had home and away Changeroom um, so if the
men played after us, guess where we got put in
a tent out in the car park? Yeah, where everyone
(11:38):
would watch us get changed in the car park because
there was no room for women to be inside the stadium.
So many aspects.
S3 (11:46):
Not not a lot has changed.
S1 (11:47):
No.
S3 (11:48):
Like, no, no. That was when you were playing for
the Mariners before coming back to Canberra and before you
went to Adelaide. But yeah.
S1 (11:54):
It's it's sad when you really look at it. Um,
and I hope, you know, we just got that $200
million funding. So fingers crossed. You know that's going to
be around all sports though. All female sports. But you
hope that, you know, some of that money goes within
the facility. And you know to the grassroots of football
because we have to start now. I'm like, we're we're rolling.
(12:16):
The iron is hot. I'm like, we've got to jump
on board and we've got to, you know, invest in
women's football.
S3 (12:20):
And with more women coming through, as I mentioned a
moment ago, it's important that they have the right education, uh,
around integrity, ethical decision making.
S1 (12:29):
Definitely.
S3 (12:29):
The rules. So like there's.
S1 (12:31):
100, there's a lot to.
S3 (12:32):
Learn. Yeah. Pretty quickly.
S1 (12:33):
Yeah. Because, you know, looking at my junior years and
I was in a boys team. So I got, you know,
I was lucky back then you just rocked up to,
you know, your game with your boots on and your
shins on already, and you just go jump out of
the car and you start playing. But now I think
about it and I'm like, oh God, I used to
always just have to, like, change my t shirt. And,
you know, either hide behind this, the canteen or, you know,
(12:54):
do something like away from the rest of the boys
because there was no room for me to be in
the change room.
S3 (12:59):
Yeah. So can you see a almost a light bulb
moment now in Australian sport? People are saying, oh, you know,
women should be treated fairly with parity.
S1 (13:09):
And it's it's nice that people are just talking. I'm like,
you know I think that's super important because not a
lot of people understood or knew how women retreated in
sport for, you know, for a very long time. Um,
the standards, we definitely are second class citizens, women athletes,
and it has been for a very long time. So
if we can change that and move into a more positive,
(13:31):
looking forward direction, then the next generation of kids coming through,
it's going to be a wonderful time to be joining,
you know, a team and playing team sport. Um, because
it's it made me who I am. And I think
it's one of the best things for any human to
be a part of the team because of all the
skills that you learn within it.
S3 (13:49):
Is there much sexism, do you think? From mile administrators
coaches that still needs to be dealt with. We've obviously
seen the fallout from the Spanish women's team.
S1 (14:01):
Definitely. Um, like, I've had these conversations even with our
coaching staff within Canberra. Um, and it's just having that
knowledge we even now have, um, you know, the Pride
Cup and Pride in Sport come out and talk to
us and the coaching staff on how to just be
a human and to be able to talk and respect everybody. Um, because,
(14:25):
you know, back in the day, that wasn't a thing. Um,
so coaches are learning to this day, especially if you're
a lot older. Um, but again, it's just all about
that communication. It's just having that knowledge, um, and being
able to be present with the times. But yeah, I think. Yeah,
I think there's a lot to be done within that space.
S3 (14:45):
I guess it shows a fair bit of courage, though,
to stand up and address that sort of thing. Because
you are an older player, you're able to do it.
But I would imagine that not always the case with
younger players.
S1 (14:55):
Yeah, definitely. Um, and yeah, it's a different generation. Um,
when I look at my players, the new one was
born in 2006, and I was like, cool. That's when
I finished school. So it's like, um, the age gap
is getting even bigger now because I'm getting a lot
older than what I should be and still playing. But,
you know, it's it's being that role model and trying to,
(15:16):
you know, be able to be a sounding board for
my coaches and for my players. I'm kind of like
the the girl in the middle who just likes to
listen to everyone's conversation to make sure that everyone feels
safe and comfortable.
S3 (15:29):
Do you think that the current generation realize what you
went through or what your generation went through? For instance,
2015 World Cup $750 for making it through to the
quarter final. Do you think that there is a realization
that there were people there that dug the well and
even before you?
S1 (15:47):
Yeah, I look at it and I, you know, my
best mates, Caitlin Munoz, who was in the Matildas ten
years before me and she never made a dollar. So
I think I'm lucky that I have a great relationship
with her because I saw her struggles, and then she
is grateful for me because she's like, well, at least
you got paid and you got to do something. You
got to get a little bit of a career out
(16:07):
of it. Um, but that $750 remark, when I looked
on social media, I've had, you know, some people be like, oh,
that's so sad. And then some people are like, well,
that's more than what athletics gets. And that's more like
everyone has to judge to something else. But it was
more along the lines of $750 to what the men
(16:28):
got that year. I think.
S3 (16:30):
In comparison.
S1 (16:31):
Like the Socceroos didn't even make it out of the
group stage and all of them walked away with $300,000.
And I'm like, okay, well, here we are in quarterfinals.
With that amount of money, I'm like, it just doesn't
make sense in my eyes. But the amount of training
that we do is the exact same as what the
males do. Um, but yeah, we just don't see the dollar.
S3 (16:52):
One area I wanted to ask you about was obviously
with the greater exposure comes greater pressure. And you mentioned
there social media. Uh, are sportswomen equipped, do you think,
to cope with. You know, the sudden rise, I think,
in fame and exposure and, and suddenly people feel as
(17:13):
though it's okay to have a crack at them on
social media and, you know, if they miss a goal
or they don't kick a goal or they don't save
a goal.
S1 (17:19):
Yeah, like I think women are strong and have to
be and have been for a very long time. Um,
they know how to present themselves on social media, and
we know not to really read what people say to
us because, you know, I used to cop it a lot,
especially for being a gay athlete. Um, people would tell
me to read the Bible constantly, and I just never
(17:40):
understood it was a book I didn't want to be
able to read. Um, but I just believe in women
because we've always had to have that second job. We've
always had to, you know, be able to juggle as
many things as possible, juggling, you know, our own personal
social media and being able to handle criticism just comes
with the game. Um, and we get criticized from our
coaches more than what we get criticized by the people
(18:01):
in the stands. So I think there's like. Part of
us that know we're like we're the ones on the field.
We know what we're doing. You're just jealous because you're
sitting in the stands. Say whatever you need to say. Um,
but we're doing our job and we're trying our best.
So it's that kind of mentality. We try not to
let things get to us, because if you do, then
that's when the problems start to start to just unravel
(18:24):
and roll everywhere. Um, having.
S3 (18:26):
Known you for a while over the years, you're one
of the more grounded people that I've ever known. And
you're quite comfortable in talking about, you know, your own life. Yeah.
Is there always that worry that I don't want to
expose myself too much? I.
S1 (18:42):
I can't not it's weird. Um, I like to be
as honest as I can, and sometimes it just gets
me into trouble as well, because my mum always told
me to, like, speak your mind. And if you have
an opinion, just say it. So I have been doing
that since I was little, so I don't think it
could ever change. But you know, I think that's why
I'm not within the Matildas. I think that's, you know,
(19:03):
the way that I speak sometimes. It's just my, you know,
make people feel different because I'm am so honest. I'm
not a yes man kind of girl anymore. And I
was when I was quite younger. But now I'm like,
the more that I can speak my own truth and
be honest with who I am, that's when I feel
the happiest. And when I'm the happiest, that's when I
(19:24):
play good football and you see me smiling, running around
on the field. So it works for me, and I'll
always just be as honest as I can.
S3 (19:31):
When you say there's been backlash at times, how do
you handle that?
S1 (19:36):
I just laugh because I'm just like, well, what's the point?
I'm like, you know, it's my own personal opinion. You
can have your own opinion and that's fine. Um, I'm
not here to have arguments with people. It was just
this is my thought, and that's why I said it. Um,
and then, yeah, I just kind of let it go,
and then people just bring things up constantly. Um, but again, I'm.
(19:57):
I am who I am, and I'm not going to
change that.
S3 (20:00):
How do you reckon male sportspeople have found the sudden
rise of the Matildas? You know, everybody's talking about a
Mary Fowler Steph Catley. They're talking about Hayley Raso. They're
talking about Sam Kerr I.
S1 (20:13):
Think it's awesome. Um because like you even saw like
the boomers with all their jerseys on and you know
changing the time of their game just so they could
watch the girls and like that's something special because I
know that all the male counterparts have always wanted women
to be in the headlight as well. Like they they
wanted to fill stadiums who would ever play sport and
(20:33):
not want to play in front of people. That's the
whole purpose of doing what we do. Um, so I
think they're all on board. They love it. Like being
able to see, you know, there was film of like
the Panthers and everyone just like cheering and screaming about
the penalty shootout. And I'm like, that's what Australians are about.
We are one of the best, you know, countries in
the world where we're loving, we support each other. We
(20:54):
everyone pretty much barracks for every single code within the game. Um,
so to have that support from the males is just
it's awesome because it's always been there. It just hasn't
been out into the public.
S3 (21:06):
Great for young women too, because there used to be
that saying, didn't there? That you can't be what you
can't see. Suddenly they're able to see it, and you
would imagine that it's not just good for young women
wanting to be footballers soccer players, but right across the board,
women feel empowered to, okay, this is what I want
to do in life.
S1 (21:23):
It's awesome. Like I love being able to, you know,
turn on the TV now when you see the NRL
debut on. And I'm just like, thank goodness. I was like, God,
if that was on when I was 18, I would
have played that sport for sure because I grew up
playing touch football as well and I loved the NRL,
like that was my sport that I watched. I and
now for me to be able to see those girls
(21:44):
going out there hitting really hard and like, you know,
loving what they're doing, it inspires, it inspires me to play.
I'm a little bit too old now. I think it
would hurt my body a bit much. But you know,
if that's inspiring me, then of course it's going to
be inspiring. You know, people younger than me to go
out and, you know, go play that sport. So to
see more women on TV and in the media, um,
(22:06):
it's only the best thing that can happen for us.
S3 (22:08):
As a final question, how do we keep this momentum going?
Because people are talking about putting more money into facilities,
more money for women playing sport. How do you keep
it going? Because there will be a time when people say,
oh yeah, the Matildas, they played well. Um, it was
great to watch them in the World Cup, but we've
moved on. How do you keep it going and and
capitalize on it. Do you think it's.
S1 (22:29):
It's a very hard one. Um, what I'm trying to
even push here in Canberra is, you know, come out
to the games, come out to McKellar Park, come show like,
come support us, just buy a membership, be a part
of it if you can. Um, we will entertain you.
It's always a fun day out at McKellar to watch,
you know, Canberra United play. So I'm like, that's the
way that I'm looking at it. Um, just trying to
(22:51):
bring people out. Especially because Covid is gone now. You know,
we're allowed out. We might as well enjoy it. It's
a summer sport, so we're like, you might as well
come out. Enjoy the nice sunshine. There's you know, there's beers.
There's everything. Like there's a lot of people having fun
but no one knows about it. And again this like
I said from the beginning, comes back down to that marketing.
(23:11):
And if no one knows that we're playing, um, then
that's that's the sad thing. So it's trying right now
while the iron's hot, is to get as much information
about every single code within Canberra, within your state to,
you know, jump on board and to push it. Um,
I was having a talk with Cricket the other day,
and even they're thinking of the same thing. They're like, okay, well,
(23:33):
because football is doing so well right now, like, how
are we going to allow cricket to do just as well?
Like and they're like, well, we need to make sure
people know that we're playing and where we're playing and
these days and things like that. Like if you walk
down the street, there's not a lot of advertisement for
any female sports within Canberra. Um, but we do have,
you know, six professional teams and there's nothing about us
(23:56):
right now. So I'm like, we need to start pushing
that and seeing more of us in the papers and
on social media. Um, and I think that's the only
way that we can continue to make it, you know,
hot for as long as possible and get.
S3 (24:07):
The corporates on board because they realise that you're very
good role models.
S1 (24:10):
100%. I'm like, yeah, just sponsor us, please. Great.
S3 (24:15):
Michelle, thanks very much for joining on site. It's been
a pleasure talking to you today.
S1 (24:18):
It's been the best. Thank you.
S2 (24:22):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport integrity.gov Edu. For more information on Sport
Integrity Australia, please visit our website at Sport integrity.gov. Edu
(24:43):
or check out our Clean Sport app.
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