The latest episode of our podcast On Side looks at the issue of safeguarding participants of sport. It discusses the findings of the Australian Child Maltreatment Study and what it means for sport, and the work done as a result of Sport Integrity Australia’s review of the Western Australian Institute of Sport’s Women’s Artistic Gymnastics Program.
The interview features:
Professor Daryl Higgins Director, Institute of Child Protection Studies, Australian Catholic University
Kait McNamara Director, Child Safeguarding, Department of Local Sport and Cultural Industries (Western Australia)
Emma Gardner A/g Director Safeguarding, Sport Integrity Australia.
Professor Higgins revealed the findings of the Australian Child Maltreatment Study which showed 62% of Australians had experienced 1 or more types of maltreatment.
Concerningly, maltreatment is chronic, not isolated, according to the study, with 2 in 5 experiencing maltreatment.
“We're just scratching the surface,” he said. “We know that many forms of abuse and neglect are more prevalent for women compared to men and … looked at changes over time, gender differences, age cohort differences and that's really the power of a study as comprehensive as ours is.”
He said the response to the study was positive.
“We're already seeing that in terms of different sectors saying how valuable the data is to them, both in terms of prevention, knowing how extensive it is and therefore what are some of the drivers that we need to be addressing in our community, but also in terms of responses.
“We know now that one of the really significant drivers of the scourge that we have in Australia of mental ill health is childhood experiences of abuse and neglect.”
McNamara said the findings of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse showed there was no type of institution that escaped this type of abuse and harm of children.
However, that the response from sport is crucial.
“It’s crucial for them being just aware of who can support them if something does happen at their club, who do they need to contact in the police, who do they need to contact … So I think it's around not putting our heads in the sand and making sure we just accept the fact these things could happen.
“We prevent them where we can, but if they do occur, how do we support that young person in a very, very critical moment because that can really shape how they then move forward from their journey.”
The key risk areas identified by the Royal Commission – such as transporting children and overnight stays – are still the same key increased risk areas that Sport Integrity Australia was seeing, according to Gardner, from Sport Integrity Australia.
“Overwhelmingly the largest proportion of complaints [Sport Integrity Australia receives] involve children,” she said.
Those complaints snowballed after the release of the documentary Athlete A, but “gymnastics is not an island”, she said.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
The impact of our Australian Child Maltreatment study is to
really show that the prevalence of maltreatment is so much
greater than, in fact, what is coming to the attention
of our statutory child protection authorities each year.
S2 (00:14):
The kids, it really is a space where they can
become part of a community. And I think there's a
real role for sporting clubs and organisations to make sure
that kids are kept safe in their care. I think
it's also for them being just aware of who can
support them. If something does happen at their club. I
think it's cliche for a reason. Everybody has a role
to play in safeguarding sport and so understanding that it's
(00:34):
all very well having your governance structures in place and
had great policies. But if people don't know what their
rights are and what their responsibilities are, it's ineffective.
S1 (00:43):
I'm really positive about the role that the sports sector
can play in building that parenting capacity and using evidence
based parenting practices as a really up front thing that
they support and engage.
S3 (01:06):
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S4 (01:21):
Hello and welcome to onside I'm Tim Gavel at Sport
Integrity Australia. We're committed to Australian sport environments that are safe,
supportive and friendly for all members, including children and young people.
We offer a safe place for people to raise concerns
about behaviour that witnessed or experienced in sport. Increasingly, sport
integrity issues have featured on our front pages, whether it
(01:44):
be concussion, racism, gambling or abuse of match officials. There
will be times when breaches of policies occur and having
the tools available to manage complaints and disputes is essential.
On our podcast today, we talk about safeguarding, particularly child
safeguarding in sport. Our guests include Professor Daryl Higgins, the
director at the Institute of Child Protection Studies at the
(02:07):
Australian Catholic University, Kate McNamara, the director of child safeguarding
at the Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries
in Western Australia and Sport Integrity Australia's acting director of safeguarding,
Emma Gardiner. So, Daryl, just with regard to the Australian
Child Maltreatment Study, what sort of impact did it make?
S1 (02:29):
Well, the study is, um, as the name implies, you know,
the first national prevalence study of all forms of child
maltreatment in Australia. And it really fills a gap that
we have had up until now, whenever we've talked about,
you know, child protection issues, we've often gone to data
on the, um, different types of maltreatment that come to
(02:51):
the attention of statutory child protection authorities. And I think
the impact of our, um, Australian child maltreatment study is
to really show that the prevalence of maltreatment is so
much greater than, in fact, what is coming to the
attention of our statutory child protection authorities each year.
S4 (03:09):
How do you define child maltreatment?
S1 (03:11):
Well, child maltreatment is a term that researchers and many
people use to really talk about different forms of abuse
and neglect. So it's when the, um, the, the, the treatment,
if you like, of, of children by parents or caregivers
or others in positions of authority, um, uh, is not
(03:32):
what it should be.
S4 (03:33):
How prevalent is it in sport? We've had a look
at an overview here, but what about sport specifically?
S1 (03:40):
Yeah. So that is the one area that we have
not yet looked at specifically. So we've not gone down to, um,
industry specific, um, types of harm. But of course, sport
is just one example of what we would call an
institutional context. And often in those contexts we're talking specifically
about sexual abuse. In our study, we're looking at every
(04:02):
form of child abuse and neglect. So we're looking at
physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect and exposure to
domestic violence.
S4 (04:10):
Is it gender specific?
S1 (04:12):
Yes, absolutely. We know that, um, many forms of abuse
and neglect are more prevalent, um, for men, sorry for
women compared to men. And certainly we found that in
our study. And one of the unique things that we
have is that we looked at not just, um, adult
16 and up, uh, who, uh, who experience different forms
(04:36):
of child abuse and neglect during their childhood. Uh, so
we were able to look at, um, changes over, over time,
going backwards, looking at gender differences, looking at age cohort differences.
And that's really the power of a study as comprehensive
as ours is. So 8500 Australians who participated in telephone interviews.
S4 (04:59):
You'd hope now that you've laid the platform, that there
is going to be a positive response to your study.
S1 (05:06):
Oh, absolutely. Look, we're already seeing that in terms of
different sectors saying how valuable the the data is to them. Uh,
you know, I was meeting with people just last night
who were saying how important this is for their work,
both in terms of prevention, knowing how extensive it is
and therefore, what are some of the drivers that we
(05:26):
need to be addressing in our community, but also in
terms of responses? And one of the main ways in
which I think our study is really important is that
it looks at the health and mental health consequences, um,
across life. And we know now that one of the
really significant drivers of the scourge that we have in
Australia of mental ill health is childhood experiences of abuse
(05:50):
and neglect.
S4 (05:51):
Are you expecting that there is going to be further
work done study wise? You you've done the child maltreatment
study Australia wide. Do you feel as though the time
is right now to to be absolutely specific on, on
some of the areas that you've already identified?
S1 (06:07):
Uh, look, we're just scratching the surface. This is the first, um,
you know, six. Major articles have come out in the
Medical Journal of Australia, but that's just the beginning. We've
got another 20 articles that we're planning. So lots of
further analyses to be done. Um, this is really just
the beginning.
S4 (06:26):
All right. It probably the perfect segue to Kate McNamara, director,
Child Safeguarding Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries
in Western Australia. We've just had a look there. Um,
through the eyes of Daryl about the impact that this
study has had. Um, you've obviously had some issues in
Western Australia. You've had, um, uh, Royal Commission into Institutional
(06:50):
Responses to Child Abuse. 310 recommendations for Western Australia have
had the waste women's artistic gymnastics program, with Sport Integrity
Australia conducting that review. So there are issues to deal
with sports specifically, aren't there?
S5 (07:05):
Um, indeed.
S2 (07:06):
I think the, uh, Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to
Child Sexual Abuse very much showed us that there was
no type of institution that sort of escaped, um, this
type of abuse and harm of children, that it was
prevalent across the board. Um, there is a one of
the Royal commission volumes does specifically look at sport and
recreation itself and certainly found that there were, um, I
(07:28):
don't know, off the top of my head, but there
were there were a lot of, uh, 500. I was
gonna say 408. There you go. Well, scratching the surface. So, um,
of people that came forward with their stories about the
harm they experience in, in sporting institutions. So it's a
big focus of our department, a lot of departments in WA,
and I'm sure around Australia is implementing those 310 recommendations,
(07:48):
which are the ones that WA obviously have accepted. Um,
many of which relate to sport. And our department leads
two of those, but we work very broadly across some
of the other recommendations with other agencies to ensure that
sporting organisations and other sectors that we support are starting
to become more child safe.
S4 (08:04):
How do you deal with it? You mentioned there safeguarding.
Are there other things that you can do to to
protect particularly young people in sport?
S2 (08:13):
Yeah, I think it's I think the sport space is
a really interesting one for me. I'm, um, full transparency,
not a sporty person by background. Um, and I think
it's been a bit of a learning curve, but I
think for kids, it really is a space where they
can become part of a community. And I think there's
a real role for sporting clubs and organisations to make
sure that kids are kept safe in their care. So
(08:34):
I think, you know, at first, you know, it's around
going back to the ten national principles for child safe organizations.
For us, there was a lot of really brave survivors
that came forward as part of the royal commission. And
then there were a lot of really clever people that
put together recommendations, one of them being the National Principles
for Child Safety, and they are the foundational building blocks
of keeping kids safe and in organisations. So we very
(08:57):
much encourage all of our sectors, including sport, to make
sure they're starting to work towards the national principles for
child safe organizations becoming child safe. I certainly, as a
parent of small children, would look at enrolling my children
into a club that could tell me that they did.
They have implemented those child safe principles rather than one
that doesn't. So I think there's a few. There's obviously
(09:18):
a lot of things going on that stemmed from the
Royal commission, um, that I think sporting organisations can look
to in the first instance. And I think it's also
for them being just aware of, of who can support them.
If something does happen at their club, who do they
need to contact in the police, who do they need
to contact the Department of Communities. And obviously there's equivalent
organisations over here. So start familiarizing themselves with those processes
(09:41):
and those organisations to empower them to actually know how
to support a child if worst case scenario abuse does happen.
What we learnt from the Royal Commission is that the
institutional response often was very poor, and that could compound
the trauma further. So I think it's around not putting
our heads in the sand and making sure we just
accept the fact that these things could happen. We prevent
them where we can. But if they do occur, how
(10:03):
do we support that young person in a very, very
critical moment? Because that can really shape how they then
move forward in their journey.
S4 (10:10):
I'll come back to both yourself and Daryl in a moment. Kate.
But Emma Gardner is Sport Integrity Australia's acting director, safeguarding
Emma just on the waste recommendations. What role did Sport
Integrity Australia have then and what role does it have now?
S2 (10:25):
Thank you Tim. So we basically conducted a review of
is a cultural review of the Western Australian Institute of
Sport women's artistic gymnastics program that went from 1987 to 2016.
So a massive span. It's important to note that they
don't have any more gymnastics programs at ways. Um, but
(10:45):
it was a cultural review. It was never a disciplinary process. But, um,
going into, um, the interviews, I my background is child protection.
So obviously was part of some of the more complex interviews, um,
that we conducted. As part of that review, we had
some 86 participants came forward with their stories of lived experience, um,
within that program. So I'm quite positive. And we heard
(11:07):
of some not so positive and some quite, you know,
traumatic experiences that were, that were had throughout that program. Um,
so I would caveat every interview with, you know, this
is not a disciplinary process, but if you tell me
something that indicates that somebody or that yourself or someone
else is at significant risk of harm, then we will
(11:28):
take that information further. So, um, we it was an
interesting one because it was more of a restorative engagement process.
It was a cultural review. And at the end of
every interview, we asked the the athletes and the relevant
persons within the sport who wanted to share their story.
What would you do differently if you could? Um, and
(11:51):
so I believe for the majority, for the most part,
people feeling heard, people being believed, and people understanding that
we're doing our best to ensure this doesn't happen, um,
again to the next generation of young athletes is key. Um,
gymnastics isn't an island. In 1987, not many sports had
child safeguarding policy. In 2023, we're still getting sports to
(12:14):
adopt child safeguarding policy. And so for me, I guess
the key difference for gymnastics and that extra, um, duty
of care is that you've got a sport where you're
elite and sub elite athletes are children. And so understanding,
as Kate touched on before, you know, we know a
lot more about brain development. We know about the impact
of trauma on that developing brain. And, you know, behaviours
(12:38):
that were accepted in the past are not accepted anymore. So, um,
documentaries such as athlete A created a snowball effect. So
in the UK, in the USA and here in Australia
we reviewed gymnastics. There was a Human Rights Commission review,
also of Gymnastics Australia. So a very long answer I'm afraid.
(12:58):
And so um, Kate and DXC have been working with
Sport Integrity to really unpack. Well, what is the intention
behind some of these recommendations? What do they mean and
what does success look like. So for example setting up
an independent complaint handling model, what's a reasonable time frame
and what does that entail. So that we can ensure
that we've got this cross-agency, um, collaboration to really affect
(13:22):
some positive change for the children and young people in
sport today.
S4 (13:26):
What role does Sport Integrity Australia play in the total
sports landscape? Not just with waste. But you mentioned there
the complaints handling model. But can you just give a
quick overview on on sport integrity Australia's role in safeguarding sport.
S2 (13:40):
Absolutely. So obviously a lot of people will be familiar
with our organisation in terms of competition, manipulation and anti-doping. Um,
but we've expanded our remit, um, as part of the
recommendations from the Royal Commission. Um, we wanted to really
have one agency deal with all integrity areas. And so
now in the safeguarding unit, we look at member protection
(14:00):
and child safeguarding primarily. And so what that is, is, uh,
coming from a child protection background, it's a really positive
change to be in a proactive space, not a reactive space.
So it's education. It is prevention. So we provide policy
which is really the drop in the ocean. Um, it's
the implementation and the operationalization of that policy that is key.
(14:21):
So providing evidence based best practice frameworks, um, and other
resourcing is really, really key to actually affecting the cultural
change that needs to happen to keep people at all
levels of sport safe from harm.
S4 (14:36):
What sort of, um, safeguarding issues are we looking at?
S2 (14:40):
It's interesting, Tim, because the, the data and I'm so
happy for the work that Daryl is doing because the
data from the Royal Commission is quite historical and 408
survivors of abuse in sport, I would say that that's
not really scratching the surface, but the key areas of
abuse were found. Um, so key risk areas for children
and young people such as, you know, transporting children, um,
(15:02):
overnight stays in change rooms, etc. those are really, um,
still the same key increased risk areas that we're seeing today.
So the majority of the complaints that we receive at
Sport Integrity Australia are child safeguarding complaints. And overwhelmingly we're
seeing the same key areas. So it shows us that
we're on the money with our policy. Um, and that
(15:24):
we're sort of. Still, at times I believe the sporting
sector thinks we're being overzealous, but we're trying to eliminate
grooming without, you know, increasing anxiety within the sport. But,
you know, increasing that awareness and the understanding that if
you create safe environments, then you eliminate a lot of
those risks.
S4 (15:42):
Daryl, I'd imagine a lot of what has been said
by Kate and Emma resonates with you. Some of the
some of the information, I guess, that you've received through
this study that you've done.
S1 (15:51):
Absolutely. Look, I'm really glad, um, Emma, that you used
the word grooming. Um, and the reason for me saying
that is that I think in, in terms of prevention
of child sexual abuse, we are often not explicit about
what it is that we're trying to achieve. And so
when we're really clear about what are the things, what
are the conditions that can lead to harm? Um, clearly
(16:12):
grooming is, you know, the top one. And so we
need to be explicit about that. We need to say it. Um,
and the organisations that we're working with need to understand,
first of all, what grooming is and what it might
look like, because of course, it can look very similar
to warm, trusting relationships. So that's really complex for for organisations,
particularly sporting organisations, to get across. Um, the other thing
(16:37):
that I've been reflecting on as we've been chatting now
is the fact that the Australian Child Maltreatment Study, um,
not only did it shed a light on the, the
prevalence of, um, different forms of abuse and neglect such
as sexual abuse, and we found that 28.5% of the
population had experienced sexual abuse. Um, we also found, though,
(16:58):
that there have been some positive changes over time. So
the younger group within our our study, so the 16
to 24 year olds had slightly lower rates of sexual
abuse compared to the older participants in the study. But
one of the main areas that I found really challenging,
(17:20):
but really important, was that things like sexual abuse don't
necessarily go on in isolation. They're often they're going hand
in hand with other forms of abuse and victimization. So
that could be abuse that's going on in the family.
It could be exposure to domestic violence. It could be, um,
emotional abuse. It could be physical abuse. Um, and so
(17:42):
if we take a holistic view of children's health and
wellbeing and recognise that harm may be going on elsewhere
outside of the sport, what's our role in being able
to provide, first of all, trauma informed responses, to hear
disclosures about harm that might be going on in their home,
at school, in other friendship networks, noting, of course, that
(18:04):
even when we're talking about sexual abuse that often harm from, um,
sexual abuse is occurring not just from other adults, but
from children and young people. So that could be other
people in the team. It could be at school, it
could be online. Um, there's so many different ways where
sexually harmful behaviors can be experienced by children and young people.
(18:29):
So I think the the Australian Child Maltreatment Study really
sheds an important light on the diversity of different types
of harm. It it focuses our attention not just on
sexual abuse, but all of the different components and elements
of that, including harmful sexual behaviour from other children and
young people. And as I said, importantly, the relationship with
(18:51):
other forms of abuse and neglect. And interestingly, the area
that I've been focusing on is how that, um, relates
to the long term wellbeing. And we know that, um,
adults who are experiencing mental ill health and health risk
behaviours like um, addictions, um, and self-harming behaviours that they
(19:12):
are much more likely to have experienced multiple types of
maltreatment rather than a single type. So hopefully this data
can really be used by a whole range of different sectors,
including sport, not just to renew their efforts around safeguarding
to protect children from sexual abuse within their code, but
(19:33):
more importantly, to keep children safe no matter where the
harm comes from and no matter what type of harm.
S2 (19:41):
Um, Darryl, that's music to my ears. Hearing you, you
say those things because I think part of the key
reason that, you know, we're we're here. Um, we're actually
in Brisbane for a conference which has law enforcement agencies
and child protection agencies involved is we need to understand
that holistic approach and understanding the complex issues around child
(20:01):
abuse and domestic violence. Certainly, there's normally multiple, um, concerns
and different types of abuse going on. I think sports
understanding their duty of care, sports can be the one
safe place that a child has. Um, they have such
a strong and key important, you know, role to play
in terms of recognising indicators of abuse, particularly, you know, neglect,
(20:24):
neglect when a child doesn't have the right shoes or
the right food, it's not because the parent is lazy
or can't be bothered. There's usually lots of other underlying
issues going on at home. And so understanding how to
identify and respond to risk of harm is such a
key part of this. So we don't just think that
sports are going to harm children, but we understand, you know,
exposure to domestic violence, for example, a lot of sports question. Well,
(20:47):
why is that our duty of care to have that
included in our sport child safeguarding policy? It is one
of the five five subcategories of abuse because it is
such a huge problem. It is a cyclical problem and
you know, you're far more likely to repeat, um, repeat
that abuse when you're an adult if you're exposed to
it as a child. And so I think that that's
(21:08):
really important to sort of provide that education and that knowledge. Um,
particularly when we talk about grooming, um, there are detectives
that struggle to prove grooming. It is a criminal offence
in four states, but unfortunately it's very difficult to prove.
And so the policies and the frameworks so understanding, you know,
our role is to, to really decipher data, to work
(21:30):
with data, to thank God, have some current data to
be able to work with, to be able to contextualize
to the sporting space, to, um, yeah, to to be
able to try and sort of support them to create
those safe environments. Absolutely. I think having this, um, recent
data is amazing. I think a lot of people do
think the Royal commission, um, was historical things. I know
(21:52):
it did touch on historical abuse, but we know it's
still very much prevalent. Um, I think for me, one
of the challenges in all of this is, is the
sport sector itself, in the sense that it is often
run by volunteers, their parents. There's people who are time poor.
There's certainly the sense we've got from the sector is eagerness, willingness,
wanting to know how they can help. We work really
(22:13):
closely with the peak body sports Western WA, who are
really driving a lot of this work. So we've certainly
come in and found a very willing and engaged sector.
It's just there's it's a really challenging space, I think,
because there is a high turnover of at the club
level who's working there, coaches, parents. So I think it's
(22:34):
sort of it's one of those things that we have
this information in a different sector. We might approach it differently.
So for me it's a little bit how can we
actually look at the sector. We have the information, we
have all the different areas working in this space and
bring it together to actually tailor something for sport, because
I do think they've got some sort of slightly different considerations,
and it's hard to know how to do that. And
(22:55):
I think sports, um, they can be a little bit competitive.
You know, the clue's in the title, right. And so
they they want to get through the national principals and
become safe and get a big tick, and that's it.
And it's done. And oh my God, we're safe now.
But you touched on the turnover. The risk isn't going
to go anywhere. Unfortunately. There's always going to be new children,
and there's always going to be people that are drawn
(23:16):
to sports with nefarious intent. So understanding that continual improvement
process and understanding, you've got to stay keep your finger
on the pulse with latest legislation and standards and frameworks
and data. And it's going on and on. I always
liken it to, um, work health and safety legislation when
it first came out in Australia and every builder said,
we're never going to build a house, we're never going
(23:38):
to get anything done because these rules are ridiculous. Oh
my God, it's just it's undoable. But now it's second
nature and that's where we're at with safeguarding in sport.
S4 (23:48):
Just on grooming, you highlighted a number of issues. There
is the online environment Daryl, a real issue for you
at the moment. And I guess navigating something we really
haven't experienced a lot of before. But now suddenly it
is coming in a wave.
S1 (24:04):
Absolutely. Look, I think with our our younger sample in the,
in the Australian child maltreatment study, that was one of
the key locations, if you like or contexts of, of
sexual harm was the online environment. So certainly things have
changed from, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, um,
that we have to constantly be rethinking, um, what are
(24:26):
the risks that we need to be engaging with? And
of course, sport is not immune from that. You know,
there's a lot of electronic communication that goes on, whether
it be between, um, team leaders and participants, between the young.
People themselves, their friendship networks, they're engaging with each other. Um,
it's just one more form of communication that we need
(24:49):
to be aware of and having in our sites when
we're talking about what safety means for children and young people.
But one of the things that I'm really, um, kind
of excited about the possibility for sports, and it touches
on what you were talking about, Kate, in terms of, um,
the the workforce, if you like, of of many sporting
(25:11):
clubs being volunteers and being parents themselves. The thing that
I'm hopeful about is that effectively, we have a training
ground for building the capacity of parents, because as they're
going through the process of creating child safe organisations, they're
learning skills that they can actually translate into their home environment,
(25:34):
you know, effectively what, um, many sports coaches do, just
as many teachers and early childhood educators do. You could,
in another context, call parenting skills. You know, it's about
how to manage behaviour of, you know, a group or
an individual, um, how to use positive reinforcement, um, how
(25:54):
to avoid coercion, um, how to avoid harm. And those
are the same skill sets that we actually want parents
to be using in the home. So I'm really positive
about the role that the sports sector can play in
building that parenting capacity and using evidence based parenting practices as,
(26:15):
as a, you know, really up front thing that they
support and engage.
S2 (26:19):
I feel like that's a really important part. And I
think it's cliche for a reason. Everybody has a role
to play in safeguarding sport, and a lot of the contextualised, um,
resources that we're looking at, we understand that high performance
in the national sporting body are probably not where the
risk sits. It's at community level sport. And so understanding
that it's all very well having your governance structures in
place and and great policies. But if people don't know
(26:41):
what their rights are and what their responsibilities are, it's ineffective.
No one's going to report and complain. And so educating
parents and having them understand that, you know, when we
had Covid, prime example, excluding parents from being able to
watch their children, um, train because of the numbers in
the building is actually illegal. You cannot remove parents parental responsibility.
(27:03):
And so educating um, parents on how to how to
find a safe club and how to sort of ask
the right questions to ensure that their children are kept safe.
Exactly what you were talking about before, Kate, is key
and part of the work that we're doing, also with
play by the rules is, um, they have a big
media campaign coming out called Start to Talk. And so
the work that we in the safeguarding team aim to
(27:25):
do is to develop resourcing, to be able to provide
that is accessible for people to understand. Okay, well, what
does this actually look like? What do I need to
know and where do I go. So yeah, it's a
really key part. Yeah, absolutely. And I think picking up
on that sort of ability to share information with parents,
I think particularly at that maybe more elite high performance level,
(27:45):
I think that information also needs to come from the
clubs themselves. I think there can be that power imbalance
between a coach and a family. You see it in
other sectors as well. You know, we saw it in
religious institutions and shorts and in other sectors as well.
So I think making sure that the the institutes or
the clubs themselves are also empowering parents to let them know,
(28:06):
to ask for feedback, to make sure that kids are
involved in decision making, it starts to sort of level
out that power and balance a little bit, so that
families do actually feel that they could, because they might
know that. They could say, actually, I want to stay.
But if they're feeling a little bit unsure because there
is that, you know, unequal power, they might not actually
feel that they want to do that. So I do
think it's also important that the sector itself is driving
(28:29):
that sort of messaging to say, it's okay if you
want to come back to us, this is your right
within this institute, this club. So the parents are a
little bit more on that level playing field. And famously,
you know, having worked in child protection, it's something that
has not happened very well. You know, engaging children and
young people in decisions that affect them and having meaningful
consultation and closing the loop and co-designing and co-branding resources
(28:53):
to them. It's such a key part. We I'm not
going to plug, um, work that we're doing. We've spoken
in the past about, you know, speaking to children. So
getting the information from the horse's mouth, understanding where they
think the gaps are because sports identifying where they think
operational risk is, might be quite different to children and
young people. So that's part of the work Daryl has
(29:14):
obviously been involved in and that we want to continue.
S1 (29:17):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, child centred practice is really key
to so many different areas. And absolutely sport is um,
front and centre. Um, you know, in, in needing to
really take that up. And so it's great to see
that that's, you know, that that's on the radar for
the sector. Um, and I really encourage you all to, um,
keep going down that path because we learn very different things.
(29:40):
When we bother to stop and ask children about things
like what makes them feel safe, what makes them feel uncomfortable,
things that adults don't necessarily feel, um, the same way about. Uh,
and to then really respect that. And as you say,
to have that flow through to decision making. Um, you know,
(30:01):
often when we think about, you know, typical school environments
and sport environments, you know, there's so many decisions that
are made by adults without input or without consultation, without engagement.
And of course, there are some things that do have
to be the responsibility of adults to decide. But there
are so many parts of life where we could legitimately
(30:21):
and realistically, um, hand over responsibility to to children and
young people to be making decisions. And that's really one
of the, the learning, um, steps that we want them
to take so that they actually are feeling as though
they do have agency in their own lives because we
then miraculously are expecting them to have agency. If something
goes wrong, we want them to speak up. Well, hello,
(30:44):
they're not going to speak up if we haven't already
practiced giving them agency. If we haven't said it's okay
to talk about the icky stuff, you know, it's okay
to tell me when you're feeling uncomfortable. And certainly from
the research that my team have been doing at the
Institute of Child Protection Studies at Aswh is that if
we don't create safe spaces for those conversations around other things,
(31:07):
that might be slightly less important from an adult perspective, um,
than child sexual abuse. So things like, you know, bullying
and harassment or where they feel uncomfortable about, you know, um,
their environment, etc. unless we take those things seriously, they're
just not going to tell us about those big things
that we want them to be talking about.
S2 (31:28):
Absolutely. I think building trust is such a key, um, element. Um,
having worked in child protection again, um, I draw on
that experience, interviewing children often. We would go out on
a complaint or a report about one particular allegation. And
when you build that trust and you are a skilled interviewer,
or you can sort of ask the right questions, you
(31:49):
very often will find out there's a lot more going
on than you first initially expected.
S4 (31:55):
Just to finalize things and to wrap it up. And
I guess, Daryl, you made a very good point there,
as you did Kate and Emma, the collaboration between the
agencies and people involved in sport is so important. Do
you think, firstly to you, Kate, is there enough collaboration
happening at the moment between the agencies, sporting organisations, government
agencies and how important is it?
S2 (32:16):
I think it's really important. I think I'll only speak
from my perspective. But you know, you know, our unit's
been established for about a year now and as I
said before, it's the first time I've worked in this sector.
I've been firstly, you know, incredibly grateful for the support
that Emma and Sport Integrity Australia have been giving us
in navigating our way through these recommendations and actions. I
(32:37):
certainly often fire off an email saying, can I have
a quick chat? And Emma is always very willing to
give the time. We have been very supportive in WA
by our Departments of Justice, WA police, Department of Communities
also navigating our way through this work. So I think
there's been a lot of collaborative collaboration. We're meeting regularly
with other sort of sporting organisations nationally to understand the business,
(32:59):
understand the sector and see where some of the challenges are.
I think that for me, child safety is, as Emma
said it, we all have to collaborate because there is
not one agency or authority or individual or group that
can tackle it. I think the results from the recent
study that Daryl's been doing has shown us that unless
we as a collective society, we as a collective sector government,
(33:23):
state government, federal government, everyone under the sun really join
forces to tackle this. We will never address it because
I certainly can't help but open the news every day
and see another issue in child safety, whether it be sport, culture,
in the arts schools, uh, it's sort of it's pervasive
and it's there. So I think we have to join forces.
(33:45):
I think we should, where we don't have to double
up where someone develops information and resources that another agency
or group or state can use. Great. Let's share that.
Because we're all time poor, we're all resource poor. And
unless we do that, I just don't think we'll make
a dent.
S1 (34:01):
I've spent many years, almost 30 years now working closely
with the child and family welfare sector, and they've got
lots of expertise in that sector in preventing all forms
of child abuse and neglect, dealing with vulnerability, working with parents,
building their skills and capabilities, um, delivering evidence based parenting
(34:22):
programs and supports. The biggest problem, though, is that one
of the best ways to get access to those services
and supports is to come in contact with the child
protection system, get a referral to a welfare agency, and
that's not the way it should be. We should be
getting that skill set out into the community in non-stigmatizing ways,
in ways that's accessible to parents. And sport is a
(34:45):
beautiful example. You know, I often give the, um, uh,
the example of schools, you know, that that parents typically
trust teachers more so than they would a child protection worker. Um,
and so, you know, we want to be able to
bring that skill set into a universal platform like schools.
But I think sport is another great example of that.
(35:08):
So how do we bring that, that expertise that we
have locked away in the statutory child protection system and
all of the, you know, child family welfare agencies that
it funds? Um, what about use the sport clubhouse for
holding a, you know, seminar around, you know, parenting or
putting out messages in your weekly online newsletter about what, um,
(35:31):
you know, what a positive parenting practices and aligning it
to the work of the club. You know, if you're
actually wanting to guide and shape behaviour of the, you know,
children and young people that you're working with, let's let's
do it in ways that can have a broader impact
on our community and keep children safe, no matter where
they are, whether they're at home or whether they're at
(35:54):
the sporting field.
S2 (35:56):
I feel I feel two ways about that, that question.
And and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think the
resources that we want to develop certainly are looking at
ways to decipher this information and make it digestible and
accessible and really prevent and educate on what creates safety
for children and young people in sport. On the flip
side of that, we do have an independent complaint handling
(36:19):
model at Sport Integrity Australia and we are receiving complaints
about abuse. And I think a really key part of
of what we do is we need to understand where
our jurisdiction starts and stops. We understand that the national
principles are principles. They're not enforceable. So states are adopting
their own standards. And we it will it will come. Um,
(36:43):
and so working nationally in a federated system won't talk
to the many challenges of that space. But I think
for me it's key to understand, you know, how we
can collaborate effectively when really we do have that soft
entry and understanding what's going on for a child, um,
in terms of their safety and how do we make
(37:03):
sure that we share that information effectively across the right
agencies so that when something does go wrong that we get,
you know, an effective response and really nip it in
the bud, because as we know, statistically, one perpetrator can
have on average, 200 victims. And so that's the that's
the key work that where we really need to collaborate
with those statutory bodies. Unfortunately, I so agree. I've worked
(37:26):
in child protection. I've seen it done really well. I've
seen it done not very well. And that's all I'll
say about that. Um, but yeah, for me, um, collaboration
is key.
S4 (37:37):
Good on you, Emma. Emma, Kate and Daryl, thanks very
much for joining us on on Side.
S6 (37:41):
Thank you very much. Thank you.
S4 (37:46):
Thanks for listening to on site. Our guest today included
Professor Daryl Higgins, the director of the Institute of Child
Protection Studies at the Australian Catholic University. Kate McNamara, the
director of child safeguarding at the Department of Local Government,
Sport and Cultural Industries in Western Australia and Sport Integrity
Australia's acting director of safeguarding, Emma Gardiner. We'll have another
(38:08):
episode of onside very shortly.
S3 (38:11):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport Integrity Gov.au. For more information on Sport
Integrity Australia, please visit our website. Sport integrity gov.au or
(38:33):
check out our Clean Sport app.
The impact of our Australian Child Maltreatment study is to
really show that the prevalence of maltreatment is so much
greater than, in fact, what is coming to the attention
of our statutory child protection authorities each year.
S2 (00:14):
The kids, it really is a space where they can
become part of a community. And I think there's a
real role for sporting clubs and organisations to make sure
that kids are kept safe in their care. I think
it's also for them being just aware of who can
support them. If something does happen at their club. I
think it's cliche for a reason. Everybody has a role
to play in safeguarding sport and so understanding that it's
(00:34):
all very well having your governance structures in place and
had great policies. But if people don't know what their
rights are and what their responsibilities are, it's ineffective.
S1 (00:43):
I'm really positive about the role that the sports sector
can play in building that parenting capacity and using evidence
based parenting practices as a really up front thing that
they support and engage.
S3 (01:06):
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S4 (01:21):
Hello and welcome to onside I'm Tim Gavel at Sport
Integrity Australia. We're committed to Australian sport environments that are safe,
supportive and friendly for all members, including children and young people.
We offer a safe place for people to raise concerns
about behaviour that witnessed or experienced in sport. Increasingly, sport
integrity issues have featured on our front pages, whether it
(01:44):
be concussion, racism, gambling or abuse of match officials. There
will be times when breaches of policies occur and having
the tools available to manage complaints and disputes is essential.
On our podcast today, we talk about safeguarding, particularly child
safeguarding in sport. Our guests include Professor Daryl Higgins, the
director at the Institute of Child Protection Studies at the
(02:07):
Australian Catholic University, Kate McNamara, the director of child safeguarding
at the Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries
in Western Australia and Sport Integrity Australia's acting director of safeguarding,
Emma Gardiner. So, Daryl, just with regard to the Australian
Child Maltreatment Study, what sort of impact did it make?
S1 (02:29):
Well, the study is, um, as the name implies, you know,
the first national prevalence study of all forms of child
maltreatment in Australia. And it really fills a gap that
we have had up until now, whenever we've talked about,
you know, child protection issues, we've often gone to data
on the, um, different types of maltreatment that come to
(02:51):
the attention of statutory child protection authorities. And I think
the impact of our, um, Australian child maltreatment study is
to really show that the prevalence of maltreatment is so
much greater than, in fact, what is coming to the
attention of our statutory child protection authorities each year.
S4 (03:09):
How do you define child maltreatment?
S1 (03:11):
Well, child maltreatment is a term that researchers and many
people use to really talk about different forms of abuse
and neglect. So it's when the, um, the, the, the treatment,
if you like, of, of children by parents or caregivers
or others in positions of authority, um, uh, is not
(03:32):
what it should be.
S4 (03:33):
How prevalent is it in sport? We've had a look
at an overview here, but what about sport specifically?
S1 (03:40):
Yeah. So that is the one area that we have
not yet looked at specifically. So we've not gone down to, um,
industry specific, um, types of harm. But of course, sport
is just one example of what we would call an
institutional context. And often in those contexts we're talking specifically
about sexual abuse. In our study, we're looking at every
(04:02):
form of child abuse and neglect. So we're looking at
physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect and exposure to
domestic violence.
S4 (04:10):
Is it gender specific?
S1 (04:12):
Yes, absolutely. We know that, um, many forms of abuse
and neglect are more prevalent, um, for men, sorry for
women compared to men. And certainly we found that in
our study. And one of the unique things that we
have is that we looked at not just, um, adult
16 and up, uh, who, uh, who experience different forms
(04:36):
of child abuse and neglect during their childhood. Uh, so
we were able to look at, um, changes over, over time,
going backwards, looking at gender differences, looking at age cohort differences.
And that's really the power of a study as comprehensive
as ours is. So 8500 Australians who participated in telephone interviews.
S4 (04:59):
You'd hope now that you've laid the platform, that there
is going to be a positive response to your study.
S1 (05:06):
Oh, absolutely. Look, we're already seeing that in terms of
different sectors saying how valuable the the data is to them. Uh,
you know, I was meeting with people just last night
who were saying how important this is for their work,
both in terms of prevention, knowing how extensive it is
and therefore, what are some of the drivers that we
(05:26):
need to be addressing in our community, but also in
terms of responses? And one of the main ways in
which I think our study is really important is that
it looks at the health and mental health consequences, um,
across life. And we know now that one of the
really significant drivers of the scourge that we have in
Australia of mental ill health is childhood experiences of abuse
(05:50):
and neglect.
S4 (05:51):
Are you expecting that there is going to be further
work done study wise? You you've done the child maltreatment
study Australia wide. Do you feel as though the time
is right now to to be absolutely specific on, on
some of the areas that you've already identified?
S1 (06:07):
Uh, look, we're just scratching the surface. This is the first, um,
you know, six. Major articles have come out in the
Medical Journal of Australia, but that's just the beginning. We've
got another 20 articles that we're planning. So lots of
further analyses to be done. Um, this is really just
the beginning.
S4 (06:26):
All right. It probably the perfect segue to Kate McNamara, director,
Child Safeguarding Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries
in Western Australia. We've just had a look there. Um,
through the eyes of Daryl about the impact that this
study has had. Um, you've obviously had some issues in
Western Australia. You've had, um, uh, Royal Commission into Institutional
(06:50):
Responses to Child Abuse. 310 recommendations for Western Australia have
had the waste women's artistic gymnastics program, with Sport Integrity
Australia conducting that review. So there are issues to deal
with sports specifically, aren't there?
S5 (07:05):
Um, indeed.
S2 (07:06):
I think the, uh, Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to
Child Sexual Abuse very much showed us that there was
no type of institution that sort of escaped, um, this
type of abuse and harm of children, that it was
prevalent across the board. Um, there is a one of
the Royal commission volumes does specifically look at sport and
recreation itself and certainly found that there were, um, I
(07:28):
don't know, off the top of my head, but there
were there were a lot of, uh, 500. I was
gonna say 408. There you go. Well, scratching the surface. So, um,
of people that came forward with their stories about the
harm they experience in, in sporting institutions. So it's a
big focus of our department, a lot of departments in WA,
and I'm sure around Australia is implementing those 310 recommendations,
(07:48):
which are the ones that WA obviously have accepted. Um,
many of which relate to sport. And our department leads
two of those, but we work very broadly across some
of the other recommendations with other agencies to ensure that
sporting organisations and other sectors that we support are starting
to become more child safe.
S4 (08:04):
How do you deal with it? You mentioned there safeguarding.
Are there other things that you can do to to
protect particularly young people in sport?
S2 (08:13):
Yeah, I think it's I think the sport space is
a really interesting one for me. I'm, um, full transparency,
not a sporty person by background. Um, and I think
it's been a bit of a learning curve, but I
think for kids, it really is a space where they
can become part of a community. And I think there's
a real role for sporting clubs and organisations to make
sure that kids are kept safe in their care. So
(08:34):
I think, you know, at first, you know, it's around
going back to the ten national principles for child safe organizations.
For us, there was a lot of really brave survivors
that came forward as part of the royal commission. And
then there were a lot of really clever people that
put together recommendations, one of them being the National Principles
for Child Safety, and they are the foundational building blocks
of keeping kids safe and in organisations. So we very
(08:57):
much encourage all of our sectors, including sport, to make
sure they're starting to work towards the national principles for
child safe organizations becoming child safe. I certainly, as a
parent of small children, would look at enrolling my children
into a club that could tell me that they did.
They have implemented those child safe principles rather than one
that doesn't. So I think there's a few. There's obviously
(09:18):
a lot of things going on that stemmed from the
Royal commission, um, that I think sporting organisations can look
to in the first instance. And I think it's also
for them being just aware of, of who can support them.
If something does happen at their club, who do they
need to contact in the police, who do they need
to contact the Department of Communities. And obviously there's equivalent
organisations over here. So start familiarizing themselves with those processes
(09:41):
and those organisations to empower them to actually know how
to support a child if worst case scenario abuse does happen.
What we learnt from the Royal Commission is that the
institutional response often was very poor, and that could compound
the trauma further. So I think it's around not putting
our heads in the sand and making sure we just
accept the fact that these things could happen. We prevent
them where we can. But if they do occur, how
(10:03):
do we support that young person in a very, very
critical moment? Because that can really shape how they then
move forward in their journey.
S4 (10:10):
I'll come back to both yourself and Daryl in a moment. Kate.
But Emma Gardner is Sport Integrity Australia's acting director, safeguarding
Emma just on the waste recommendations. What role did Sport
Integrity Australia have then and what role does it have now?
S2 (10:25):
Thank you Tim. So we basically conducted a review of
is a cultural review of the Western Australian Institute of
Sport women's artistic gymnastics program that went from 1987 to 2016.
So a massive span. It's important to note that they
don't have any more gymnastics programs at ways. Um, but
(10:45):
it was a cultural review. It was never a disciplinary process. But, um,
going into, um, the interviews, I my background is child protection.
So obviously was part of some of the more complex interviews, um,
that we conducted. As part of that review, we had
some 86 participants came forward with their stories of lived experience, um,
within that program. So I'm quite positive. And we heard
(11:07):
of some not so positive and some quite, you know,
traumatic experiences that were, that were had throughout that program. Um,
so I would caveat every interview with, you know, this
is not a disciplinary process, but if you tell me
something that indicates that somebody or that yourself or someone
else is at significant risk of harm, then we will
(11:28):
take that information further. So, um, we it was an
interesting one because it was more of a restorative engagement process.
It was a cultural review. And at the end of
every interview, we asked the the athletes and the relevant
persons within the sport who wanted to share their story.
What would you do differently if you could? Um, and
(11:51):
so I believe for the majority, for the most part,
people feeling heard, people being believed, and people understanding that
we're doing our best to ensure this doesn't happen, um,
again to the next generation of young athletes is key. Um,
gymnastics isn't an island. In 1987, not many sports had
child safeguarding policy. In 2023, we're still getting sports to
(12:14):
adopt child safeguarding policy. And so for me, I guess
the key difference for gymnastics and that extra, um, duty
of care is that you've got a sport where you're
elite and sub elite athletes are children. And so understanding,
as Kate touched on before, you know, we know a
lot more about brain development. We know about the impact
of trauma on that developing brain. And, you know, behaviours
(12:38):
that were accepted in the past are not accepted anymore. So, um,
documentaries such as athlete A created a snowball effect. So
in the UK, in the USA and here in Australia
we reviewed gymnastics. There was a Human Rights Commission review,
also of Gymnastics Australia. So a very long answer I'm afraid.
(12:58):
And so um, Kate and DXC have been working with
Sport Integrity to really unpack. Well, what is the intention
behind some of these recommendations? What do they mean and
what does success look like. So for example setting up
an independent complaint handling model, what's a reasonable time frame
and what does that entail. So that we can ensure
that we've got this cross-agency, um, collaboration to really affect
(13:22):
some positive change for the children and young people in
sport today.
S4 (13:26):
What role does Sport Integrity Australia play in the total
sports landscape? Not just with waste. But you mentioned there
the complaints handling model. But can you just give a
quick overview on on sport integrity Australia's role in safeguarding sport.
S2 (13:40):
Absolutely. So obviously a lot of people will be familiar
with our organisation in terms of competition, manipulation and anti-doping. Um,
but we've expanded our remit, um, as part of the
recommendations from the Royal Commission. Um, we wanted to really
have one agency deal with all integrity areas. And so
now in the safeguarding unit, we look at member protection
(14:00):
and child safeguarding primarily. And so what that is, is, uh,
coming from a child protection background, it's a really positive
change to be in a proactive space, not a reactive space.
So it's education. It is prevention. So we provide policy
which is really the drop in the ocean. Um, it's
the implementation and the operationalization of that policy that is key.
(14:21):
So providing evidence based best practice frameworks, um, and other
resourcing is really, really key to actually affecting the cultural
change that needs to happen to keep people at all
levels of sport safe from harm.
S4 (14:36):
What sort of, um, safeguarding issues are we looking at?
S2 (14:40):
It's interesting, Tim, because the, the data and I'm so
happy for the work that Daryl is doing because the
data from the Royal Commission is quite historical and 408
survivors of abuse in sport, I would say that that's
not really scratching the surface, but the key areas of
abuse were found. Um, so key risk areas for children
and young people such as, you know, transporting children, um,
(15:02):
overnight stays in change rooms, etc. those are really, um,
still the same key increased risk areas that we're seeing today.
So the majority of the complaints that we receive at
Sport Integrity Australia are child safeguarding complaints. And overwhelmingly we're
seeing the same key areas. So it shows us that
we're on the money with our policy. Um, and that
(15:24):
we're sort of. Still, at times I believe the sporting
sector thinks we're being overzealous, but we're trying to eliminate
grooming without, you know, increasing anxiety within the sport. But,
you know, increasing that awareness and the understanding that if
you create safe environments, then you eliminate a lot of
those risks.
S4 (15:42):
Daryl, I'd imagine a lot of what has been said
by Kate and Emma resonates with you. Some of the
some of the information, I guess, that you've received through
this study that you've done.
S1 (15:51):
Absolutely. Look, I'm really glad, um, Emma, that you used
the word grooming. Um, and the reason for me saying
that is that I think in, in terms of prevention
of child sexual abuse, we are often not explicit about
what it is that we're trying to achieve. And so
when we're really clear about what are the things, what
are the conditions that can lead to harm? Um, clearly
(16:12):
grooming is, you know, the top one. And so we
need to be explicit about that. We need to say it. Um,
and the organisations that we're working with need to understand,
first of all, what grooming is and what it might
look like, because of course, it can look very similar
to warm, trusting relationships. So that's really complex for for organisations,
particularly sporting organisations, to get across. Um, the other thing
(16:37):
that I've been reflecting on as we've been chatting now
is the fact that the Australian Child Maltreatment Study, um,
not only did it shed a light on the, the
prevalence of, um, different forms of abuse and neglect such
as sexual abuse, and we found that 28.5% of the
population had experienced sexual abuse. Um, we also found, though,
(16:58):
that there have been some positive changes over time. So
the younger group within our our study, so the 16
to 24 year olds had slightly lower rates of sexual
abuse compared to the older participants in the study. But
one of the main areas that I found really challenging,
(17:20):
but really important, was that things like sexual abuse don't
necessarily go on in isolation. They're often they're going hand
in hand with other forms of abuse and victimization. So
that could be abuse that's going on in the family.
It could be exposure to domestic violence. It could be, um,
emotional abuse. It could be physical abuse. Um, and so
(17:42):
if we take a holistic view of children's health and
wellbeing and recognise that harm may be going on elsewhere
outside of the sport, what's our role in being able
to provide, first of all, trauma informed responses, to hear
disclosures about harm that might be going on in their home,
at school, in other friendship networks, noting, of course, that
(18:04):
even when we're talking about sexual abuse that often harm from, um,
sexual abuse is occurring not just from other adults, but
from children and young people. So that could be other
people in the team. It could be at school, it
could be online. Um, there's so many different ways where
sexually harmful behaviors can be experienced by children and young people.
(18:29):
So I think the the Australian Child Maltreatment Study really
sheds an important light on the diversity of different types
of harm. It it focuses our attention not just on
sexual abuse, but all of the different components and elements
of that, including harmful sexual behaviour from other children and
young people. And as I said, importantly, the relationship with
(18:51):
other forms of abuse and neglect. And interestingly, the area
that I've been focusing on is how that, um, relates
to the long term wellbeing. And we know that, um,
adults who are experiencing mental ill health and health risk
behaviours like um, addictions, um, and self-harming behaviours that they
(19:12):
are much more likely to have experienced multiple types of
maltreatment rather than a single type. So hopefully this data
can really be used by a whole range of different sectors,
including sport, not just to renew their efforts around safeguarding
to protect children from sexual abuse within their code, but
(19:33):
more importantly, to keep children safe no matter where the
harm comes from and no matter what type of harm.
S2 (19:41):
Um, Darryl, that's music to my ears. Hearing you, you
say those things because I think part of the key
reason that, you know, we're we're here. Um, we're actually
in Brisbane for a conference which has law enforcement agencies
and child protection agencies involved is we need to understand
that holistic approach and understanding the complex issues around child
(20:01):
abuse and domestic violence. Certainly, there's normally multiple, um, concerns
and different types of abuse going on. I think sports
understanding their duty of care, sports can be the one
safe place that a child has. Um, they have such
a strong and key important, you know, role to play
in terms of recognising indicators of abuse, particularly, you know, neglect,
(20:24):
neglect when a child doesn't have the right shoes or
the right food, it's not because the parent is lazy
or can't be bothered. There's usually lots of other underlying
issues going on at home. And so understanding how to
identify and respond to risk of harm is such a
key part of this. So we don't just think that
sports are going to harm children, but we understand, you know,
exposure to domestic violence, for example, a lot of sports question. Well,
(20:47):
why is that our duty of care to have that
included in our sport child safeguarding policy? It is one
of the five five subcategories of abuse because it is
such a huge problem. It is a cyclical problem and
you know, you're far more likely to repeat, um, repeat
that abuse when you're an adult if you're exposed to
it as a child. And so I think that that's
(21:08):
really important to sort of provide that education and that knowledge. Um,
particularly when we talk about grooming, um, there are detectives
that struggle to prove grooming. It is a criminal offence
in four states, but unfortunately it's very difficult to prove.
And so the policies and the frameworks so understanding, you know,
our role is to, to really decipher data, to work
(21:30):
with data, to thank God, have some current data to
be able to work with, to be able to contextualize
to the sporting space, to, um, yeah, to to be
able to try and sort of support them to create
those safe environments. Absolutely. I think having this, um, recent
data is amazing. I think a lot of people do
think the Royal commission, um, was historical things. I know
(21:52):
it did touch on historical abuse, but we know it's
still very much prevalent. Um, I think for me, one
of the challenges in all of this is, is the
sport sector itself, in the sense that it is often
run by volunteers, their parents. There's people who are time poor.
There's certainly the sense we've got from the sector is eagerness, willingness,
wanting to know how they can help. We work really
(22:13):
closely with the peak body sports Western WA, who are
really driving a lot of this work. So we've certainly
come in and found a very willing and engaged sector.
It's just there's it's a really challenging space, I think,
because there is a high turnover of at the club
level who's working there, coaches, parents. So I think it's
(22:34):
sort of it's one of those things that we have
this information in a different sector. We might approach it differently.
So for me it's a little bit how can we
actually look at the sector. We have the information, we
have all the different areas working in this space and
bring it together to actually tailor something for sport, because
I do think they've got some sort of slightly different considerations,
and it's hard to know how to do that. And
(22:55):
I think sports, um, they can be a little bit competitive.
You know, the clue's in the title, right. And so
they they want to get through the national principals and
become safe and get a big tick, and that's it.
And it's done. And oh my God, we're safe now.
But you touched on the turnover. The risk isn't going
to go anywhere. Unfortunately. There's always going to be new children,
and there's always going to be people that are drawn
(23:16):
to sports with nefarious intent. So understanding that continual improvement
process and understanding, you've got to stay keep your finger
on the pulse with latest legislation and standards and frameworks
and data. And it's going on and on. I always
liken it to, um, work health and safety legislation when
it first came out in Australia and every builder said,
we're never going to build a house, we're never going
(23:38):
to get anything done because these rules are ridiculous. Oh
my God, it's just it's undoable. But now it's second
nature and that's where we're at with safeguarding in sport.
S4 (23:48):
Just on grooming, you highlighted a number of issues. There
is the online environment Daryl, a real issue for you
at the moment. And I guess navigating something we really
haven't experienced a lot of before. But now suddenly it
is coming in a wave.
S1 (24:04):
Absolutely. Look, I think with our our younger sample in the,
in the Australian child maltreatment study, that was one of
the key locations, if you like or contexts of, of
sexual harm was the online environment. So certainly things have
changed from, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, um,
that we have to constantly be rethinking, um, what are
(24:26):
the risks that we need to be engaging with? And
of course, sport is not immune from that. You know,
there's a lot of electronic communication that goes on, whether
it be between, um, team leaders and participants, between the young.
People themselves, their friendship networks, they're engaging with each other. Um,
it's just one more form of communication that we need
(24:49):
to be aware of and having in our sites when
we're talking about what safety means for children and young people.
But one of the things that I'm really, um, kind
of excited about the possibility for sports, and it touches
on what you were talking about, Kate, in terms of, um,
the the workforce, if you like, of of many sporting
(25:11):
clubs being volunteers and being parents themselves. The thing that
I'm hopeful about is that effectively, we have a training
ground for building the capacity of parents, because as they're
going through the process of creating child safe organisations, they're
learning skills that they can actually translate into their home environment,
(25:34):
you know, effectively what, um, many sports coaches do, just
as many teachers and early childhood educators do. You could,
in another context, call parenting skills. You know, it's about
how to manage behaviour of, you know, a group or
an individual, um, how to use positive reinforcement, um, how
(25:54):
to avoid coercion, um, how to avoid harm. And those
are the same skill sets that we actually want parents
to be using in the home. So I'm really positive
about the role that the sports sector can play in
building that parenting capacity and using evidence based parenting practices as,
(26:15):
as a, you know, really up front thing that they
support and engage.
S2 (26:19):
I feel like that's a really important part. And I
think it's cliche for a reason. Everybody has a role
to play in safeguarding sport, and a lot of the contextualised, um,
resources that we're looking at, we understand that high performance
in the national sporting body are probably not where the
risk sits. It's at community level sport. And so understanding
that it's all very well having your governance structures in
place and and great policies. But if people don't know
(26:41):
what their rights are and what their responsibilities are, it's ineffective.
No one's going to report and complain. And so educating
parents and having them understand that, you know, when we
had Covid, prime example, excluding parents from being able to
watch their children, um, train because of the numbers in
the building is actually illegal. You cannot remove parents parental responsibility.
(27:03):
And so educating um, parents on how to how to
find a safe club and how to sort of ask
the right questions to ensure that their children are kept safe.
Exactly what you were talking about before, Kate, is key
and part of the work that we're doing, also with
play by the rules is, um, they have a big
media campaign coming out called Start to Talk. And so
the work that we in the safeguarding team aim to
(27:25):
do is to develop resourcing, to be able to provide
that is accessible for people to understand. Okay, well, what
does this actually look like? What do I need to
know and where do I go. So yeah, it's a
really key part. Yeah, absolutely. And I think picking up
on that sort of ability to share information with parents,
I think particularly at that maybe more elite high performance level,
(27:45):
I think that information also needs to come from the
clubs themselves. I think there can be that power imbalance
between a coach and a family. You see it in
other sectors as well. You know, we saw it in
religious institutions and shorts and in other sectors as well.
So I think making sure that the the institutes or
the clubs themselves are also empowering parents to let them know,
(28:06):
to ask for feedback, to make sure that kids are
involved in decision making, it starts to sort of level
out that power and balance a little bit, so that
families do actually feel that they could, because they might
know that. They could say, actually, I want to stay.
But if they're feeling a little bit unsure because there
is that, you know, unequal power, they might not actually
feel that they want to do that. So I do
think it's also important that the sector itself is driving
(28:29):
that sort of messaging to say, it's okay if you
want to come back to us, this is your right
within this institute, this club. So the parents are a
little bit more on that level playing field. And famously,
you know, having worked in child protection, it's something that
has not happened very well. You know, engaging children and
young people in decisions that affect them and having meaningful
consultation and closing the loop and co-designing and co-branding resources
(28:53):
to them. It's such a key part. We I'm not
going to plug, um, work that we're doing. We've spoken
in the past about, you know, speaking to children. So
getting the information from the horse's mouth, understanding where they
think the gaps are because sports identifying where they think
operational risk is, might be quite different to children and
young people. So that's part of the work Daryl has
(29:14):
obviously been involved in and that we want to continue.
S1 (29:17):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, child centred practice is really key
to so many different areas. And absolutely sport is um,
front and centre. Um, you know, in, in needing to
really take that up. And so it's great to see
that that's, you know, that that's on the radar for
the sector. Um, and I really encourage you all to, um,
keep going down that path because we learn very different things.
(29:40):
When we bother to stop and ask children about things
like what makes them feel safe, what makes them feel uncomfortable,
things that adults don't necessarily feel, um, the same way about. Uh,
and to then really respect that. And as you say,
to have that flow through to decision making. Um, you know,
(30:01):
often when we think about, you know, typical school environments
and sport environments, you know, there's so many decisions that
are made by adults without input or without consultation, without engagement.
And of course, there are some things that do have
to be the responsibility of adults to decide. But there
are so many parts of life where we could legitimately
(30:21):
and realistically, um, hand over responsibility to to children and
young people to be making decisions. And that's really one
of the, the learning, um, steps that we want them
to take so that they actually are feeling as though
they do have agency in their own lives because we
then miraculously are expecting them to have agency. If something
goes wrong, we want them to speak up. Well, hello,
(30:44):
they're not going to speak up if we haven't already
practiced giving them agency. If we haven't said it's okay
to talk about the icky stuff, you know, it's okay
to tell me when you're feeling uncomfortable. And certainly from
the research that my team have been doing at the
Institute of Child Protection Studies at Aswh is that if
we don't create safe spaces for those conversations around other things,
(31:07):
that might be slightly less important from an adult perspective, um,
than child sexual abuse. So things like, you know, bullying
and harassment or where they feel uncomfortable about, you know, um,
their environment, etc. unless we take those things seriously, they're
just not going to tell us about those big things
that we want them to be talking about.
S2 (31:28):
Absolutely. I think building trust is such a key, um, element. Um,
having worked in child protection again, um, I draw on
that experience, interviewing children often. We would go out on
a complaint or a report about one particular allegation. And
when you build that trust and you are a skilled interviewer,
or you can sort of ask the right questions, you
(31:49):
very often will find out there's a lot more going
on than you first initially expected.
S4 (31:55):
Just to finalize things and to wrap it up. And
I guess, Daryl, you made a very good point there,
as you did Kate and Emma, the collaboration between the
agencies and people involved in sport is so important. Do
you think, firstly to you, Kate, is there enough collaboration
happening at the moment between the agencies, sporting organisations, government
agencies and how important is it?
S2 (32:16):
I think it's really important. I think I'll only speak
from my perspective. But you know, you know, our unit's
been established for about a year now and as I
said before, it's the first time I've worked in this sector.
I've been firstly, you know, incredibly grateful for the support
that Emma and Sport Integrity Australia have been giving us
in navigating our way through these recommendations and actions. I
(32:37):
certainly often fire off an email saying, can I have
a quick chat? And Emma is always very willing to
give the time. We have been very supportive in WA
by our Departments of Justice, WA police, Department of Communities
also navigating our way through this work. So I think
there's been a lot of collaborative collaboration. We're meeting regularly
with other sort of sporting organisations nationally to understand the business,
(32:59):
understand the sector and see where some of the challenges are.
I think that for me, child safety is, as Emma
said it, we all have to collaborate because there is
not one agency or authority or individual or group that
can tackle it. I think the results from the recent
study that Daryl's been doing has shown us that unless
we as a collective society, we as a collective sector government,
(33:23):
state government, federal government, everyone under the sun really join
forces to tackle this. We will never address it because
I certainly can't help but open the news every day
and see another issue in child safety, whether it be sport, culture,
in the arts schools, uh, it's sort of it's pervasive
and it's there. So I think we have to join forces.
(33:45):
I think we should, where we don't have to double
up where someone develops information and resources that another agency
or group or state can use. Great. Let's share that.
Because we're all time poor, we're all resource poor. And
unless we do that, I just don't think we'll make
a dent.
S1 (34:01):
I've spent many years, almost 30 years now working closely
with the child and family welfare sector, and they've got
lots of expertise in that sector in preventing all forms
of child abuse and neglect, dealing with vulnerability, working with parents,
building their skills and capabilities, um, delivering evidence based parenting
(34:22):
programs and supports. The biggest problem, though, is that one
of the best ways to get access to those services
and supports is to come in contact with the child
protection system, get a referral to a welfare agency, and
that's not the way it should be. We should be
getting that skill set out into the community in non-stigmatizing ways,
in ways that's accessible to parents. And sport is a
(34:45):
beautiful example. You know, I often give the, um, uh,
the example of schools, you know, that that parents typically
trust teachers more so than they would a child protection worker. Um,
and so, you know, we want to be able to
bring that skill set into a universal platform like schools.
But I think sport is another great example of that.
(35:08):
So how do we bring that, that expertise that we
have locked away in the statutory child protection system and
all of the, you know, child family welfare agencies that
it funds? Um, what about use the sport clubhouse for
holding a, you know, seminar around, you know, parenting or
putting out messages in your weekly online newsletter about what, um,
(35:31):
you know, what a positive parenting practices and aligning it
to the work of the club. You know, if you're
actually wanting to guide and shape behaviour of the, you know,
children and young people that you're working with, let's let's
do it in ways that can have a broader impact
on our community and keep children safe, no matter where
they are, whether they're at home or whether they're at
(35:54):
the sporting field.
S2 (35:56):
I feel I feel two ways about that, that question.
And and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think the
resources that we want to develop certainly are looking at
ways to decipher this information and make it digestible and
accessible and really prevent and educate on what creates safety
for children and young people in sport. On the flip
side of that, we do have an independent complaint handling
(36:19):
model at Sport Integrity Australia and we are receiving complaints
about abuse. And I think a really key part of
of what we do is we need to understand where
our jurisdiction starts and stops. We understand that the national
principles are principles. They're not enforceable. So states are adopting
their own standards. And we it will it will come. Um,
(36:43):
and so working nationally in a federated system won't talk
to the many challenges of that space. But I think
for me it's key to understand, you know, how we
can collaborate effectively when really we do have that soft
entry and understanding what's going on for a child, um,
in terms of their safety and how do we make
(37:03):
sure that we share that information effectively across the right
agencies so that when something does go wrong that we get,
you know, an effective response and really nip it in
the bud, because as we know, statistically, one perpetrator can
have on average, 200 victims. And so that's the that's
the key work that where we really need to collaborate
with those statutory bodies. Unfortunately, I so agree. I've worked
(37:26):
in child protection. I've seen it done really well. I've
seen it done not very well. And that's all I'll
say about that. Um, but yeah, for me, um, collaboration
is key.
S4 (37:37):
Good on you, Emma. Emma, Kate and Daryl, thanks very
much for joining us on on Side.
S6 (37:41):
Thank you very much. Thank you.
S4 (37:46):
Thanks for listening to on site. Our guest today included
Professor Daryl Higgins, the director of the Institute of Child
Protection Studies at the Australian Catholic University. Kate McNamara, the
director of child safeguarding at the Department of Local Government,
Sport and Cultural Industries in Western Australia and Sport Integrity
Australia's acting director of safeguarding, Emma Gardiner. We'll have another
(38:08):
episode of onside very shortly.
S3 (38:11):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport Integrity Gov.au. For more information on Sport
Integrity Australia, please visit our website. Sport integrity gov.au or
(38:33):
check out our Clean Sport app.
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