November 27, 2022 • 47 mins
In the latest episode of our podcast On Side, esteemed lawyers Richard Young and Adair Donaldson provide incredible insights into their roles, including on anti-doping and abuse cases.
Young, a leader in anti-doping litigation, has worked on the cases against Tour de France winners Lance Armstrong and Floyd Landis, Marion Jones, and the BALCO doping scandal. He also worked on the Essendon supplements case.
He says he lost sleep over “all of them” and admits there has been push back as a result of his work.
“I'm not real welcome in China because of Sun Yang,” Young admits. “I'm not going back to Russia because of my role in the Russian investigation. After the Essendon case I sure got a lot of letters from Melbourne … I’ve been back to Melbourne, but I don't think I'd run for political office there.”
Adair Donaldson, who specialises in assisting survivors of trauma, says the independence offered by National Integrity Framework gives sports a lot of comfort.
“That's really very important,” he says.
He admits, however, that the Framework will not always satisfy everybody.
“And that's going to be the case no matter what … [it’s] a lot better than what we've had in the past, so that to me, is a really good step in the right direction.”
Donaldson, who works closely with sporting bodies addressing cultural issues with respect to harassment, abuse, violence, and alcohol-related issues, suspects the reason why athletes are coming forward now is that “they feel confident that they will be listened to. Isn't that good? Because in the past these people have just suffered in silence.”
Young admits prosecuting abuse, particularly emotional abuse, is difficult.
“That will be one of the issues for Sport Integrity Australia. Is it emotional abuse? Is it motivational coaching? Is it what good coaches do? Or is it emotional abuse? And you know they’re egregious examples like coaches beating their athletes, physical abuse, but the emotional abuse gets tough, but you gotta deal with the cases and bring them if you want kids to be safe in sport or you want any athlete to be safe in sport.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
You've worked in some really big cases. Lance Armstrong, Sun Yang,
Alberto Salazar, Balco.
S2 (00:06):
Well, in throw in Essendon as well. Is it motivational coaching?
Is it what good coaches do or is it emotional abuse?
It shouldn't be a world where in order to achieve
your athletic goals, you have to put up with emotional abuse.
Just like if you want kids to love sport and
(00:28):
succeed in sport, you shouldn't feel like you got a
dope in order to have a chance to succeed.
S3 (00:33):
The great thing about sport is that it disarms audiences.
What we do is we look after people that have
survived trauma and institutions, and generally speaking, it takes a
long time for a person to come forward to share
that trauma. And when they do come forward, well, that's
a big effort. I suspect the reason why people are
coming forward now is that they feel confident that they
(00:56):
will be listened to.
S4 (01:10):
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S1 (01:28):
Hello and welcome to One Side, the official podcast for
Sport Integrity Australia. I'm Tim Gavel. Our podcast provides listeners
with an opportunity to learn about integrity issues through athletes,
coaches and administrators talking about contemporary and historical moments. On
this episode, we'll be joined by two leading sports lawyers,
(01:48):
Richard Young and Adair Donaldson. Sport Integrity Australia's 2023 annual
update is out later this month. The course is for athletes,
support personnel and other members of the Australian sporting community
to highlight changes to the world Anti-Doping agency prohibited list,
as well as providing other integrity information that is vital
(02:09):
to know in 2023. In other news, Sport Integrity Australia
will be sending a team member to Interpol on a
secondment to share knowledge and help with the development of
a united approach to getting ahead of the global match
fixing threat. And we'd like to congratulate our sports engagement.
Team members Richard Nicholson and Petria Thomas were honoured by
the University of Canberra for their contribution to the sports
(02:32):
industry and congratulations to Doctor Kira James, who was announced
as the inaugural winner of the Ken Fitch Fellowship Award
earlier this month. US lawyer Richard Young is a leader
in anti-doping litigation. He was the lead drafter of the
original world Anti-Doping code and subsequent code amendments, and he's
(02:54):
worked on doping cases against tour de France winners Lance
Armstrong and Floyd Landis, Marion Jones and the Balco doping scandal.
He has worked on the Essendon supplement case. He served
on the Court of Arbitration for sport. Richard has also
been involved in drafting and enforcing safe sport rules for
sporting organisations. Richard, welcome to one side. You've done many cases.
(03:19):
You've been really working in this space for a long
time now. Firstly, can you tell us about your career
in anti-doping and and what led you down this path?
S2 (03:27):
So my background as a lawyer was as a commercial litigator.
I had some opportunities 30 some years ago to represent
national sport organisations. One of my early opportunities was in
the Quigley case, where an American shooter named George Quigley
(03:48):
had won a World Cup, uh, and then tested positive
and had his medal taken away. And it took a
shooting spot away from the US Olympic Committee. So they
sent me over to CAS to appeal that. And it
was one of the early cast cases. And back then,
(04:10):
the shooting rules said doping was the intentional use of
a performance enhancing of a prohibited substance with the aim
of enhancing performance. And this is clearly a case where
he got he was sick as a dog and the
doctor gave him a medicine called Bronchophony with the label
in Arabic, and looked at the list and told him
(04:31):
there was nothing prohibited. So it wasn't a doping violation.
I mean, we've since gone to strict liability, but it
wasn't then. And so, um. He got his medal back
and us got it shooting spot back. And this was
a high profile case. And CAS said, you seem to
(04:54):
understand this. Would you like to be one of our arbitrators?
And so I was a CAS arbitrator for a while
and ended up being on the ad hoc panels for
Nagano and Sydney. And then I did more and more
and more cases, either as an arbitrator or as an advocate.
I decided I really shouldn't be both, and so I
(05:17):
decided to be an advocate and resigned from CAS. And
I did more and more cases and wrote rules for
International Federations and the like. And then. When it came
time to write the world Anti-Doping code, they asked if
I'd lead that effort. So, you know, I, I was
a commercial litigator, but is it more fun to be
(05:42):
a commercial litigator, or is it more fun to be
involved in sport in an area like anti-doping? When I'm
passionate about clean sport. I got to be a pretty
easy decision. So, you know, I had a chance to
do what I really liked. You know, I'm with a
great big law firm and most of my partners have
(06:02):
to read the financial section of the paper first thing
every morning. My job is to open up the sports page.
You know, you can't get much better than that.
S1 (06:11):
You've worked in some really big cases Lance Armstrong, Sun Yang,
Alberto Salazar, Balco. What has been the most interesting of
those cases, do you think? Obviously, the Lance Armstrong was
the highest profile.
S2 (06:27):
Yeah. Um, well, in throw in Essendon as well. Yes.
I was going to ask you about the Australian element
in a moment. Um, I mean, and the Russian investigation,
they've all they've all been really interesting. Uh, none of
them were sure when cases. Uh, and so, you know,
(06:49):
a case like an Armstrong case is a little like
extreme skiing. If you fall, you die. Uh, and so
the agency was seriously at risk. Um, I probably wouldn't
pick a favorite. Um, they've all been really interesting. I mean,
the which one did you.
S1 (07:09):
Lose sleep over? Did you think?
S2 (07:10):
All of them. Okay. I mean, uh, it's funny, as
I've gotten older, I. I know more how much I
don't know. And so I actually do lose sleep. I
was a competitive tennis player in college. And, you know,
(07:31):
they're the matches that, uh, you know, you're going to win.
I don't have any physical symptoms. They're the matches where
you know you're going to lose. I don't have any
physical symptoms. It's the matches where you should win. But
you could lose that. I get the dry cough and
have a hard time sleeping. You know, it's the same
(07:52):
thing with some of these big cases. And it doesn't.
It doesn't really bother me that I get that way.
It's just that's what adrenaline does to my body. And
I've learned from being an athlete that don't sweat it,
you know, you'll be fine, you're fine as an athlete
and you'll be fine trying these cases. Did you get.
S1 (08:11):
Much pushback from your role in these cases?
S2 (08:15):
Um. Well. Probably the. If we would have. Yeah, yeah.
Because I'm not real welcome in China because of Xinjiang.
I was getting to that. Yes. I'm not going back
to Russia. Uh, because of role in the Russian investigation. Um.
(08:42):
After the Essendon case. I sure got a lot of
letters from Melbourne about how the result in that case
had had ruined somebody's father's life.
S1 (08:55):
Tell us about your role in the Essendon case and
what it meant to you to to see it through.
S2 (09:02):
Um. Well, it was interesting. You know, I'd done work for, uh.
Asada and asada on different investigations and different things before.
And it was, you know, Mr. Dank and his thymosin
(09:23):
beta four and it involved Cronulla, it involved Essendon. And
so I worked a lot with Asada on both of those.
And then we ended up representing WADA in the appeal
in the Essendon case. And it was not a slam
(09:46):
dunk case. You know, we, we thought it was a
righteous case and good and WADA thought it was a
righteous case and good and good lawyers on the other side. Um, and.
You know. The sport was very concerned about the consequence
(10:11):
to the sport. And our view was, look, under the code,
this is what needs to happen is.
S1 (10:22):
Much is said about the fact that none of the
players tested positive in a similar way, I guess, to
Lance Armstrong, in that for years he was tested yet
never tested positive. And I guess that is a recurring
theme in a lot of social media when it comes
to Essendon. But there are many other anti doping rule violations. Yeah.
(10:46):
As opposed to sort of simply testing positive. Right.
S2 (10:48):
And you know Lance said I was I was tested
300 times and I never tested positive. The same was
true with Marion Jones. Same is true in a lot
of our big cases. Um, and that just means that
they were very good at either being tipped off that
the collectors were coming, or in being very careful when
(11:11):
and how they doped that it wouldn't be detected. I mean,
for a long time we couldn't detect. In fact, it
wasn't until I think, the Sydney Games that we started
testing for EPO. And that was the drug of choice
in the cycling community. So yeah, he just tested 300 times,
but it wasn't he wasn't tested for EPO effectively. So
(11:36):
that's not a real good that's not a real good excuse.
Now our best our most significant cases are all non
analytical investigation cases.
S1 (11:46):
Does it surprise you that the Essendon issue continues to
bubble along.
S2 (11:51):
Um. A little bit. I mean, it's it was, uh,
I mean, books have been written about it. It was
in the press pretty constantly. I mean, it was a
big deal. I mean, Essendon Club was a major club.
It you know, it'd be like the Dallas Cowboys in
(12:13):
American football and, you know, all but a couple of
their players got suspended and it you know that it
screwed up the competitive equity in the league and all
that kind of stuff. But. You know, to us we
had to deal with it as where the rules violated
or weren't they?
S1 (12:34):
Moving away from anti-doping onto abuse, because you also work
in the abuse of athletes in sport, and you've done
a number of high profile cases in that area as well.
S2 (12:45):
Yeah, and a lot of of low profile cases too. Um, what.
S1 (12:50):
Range do you go through? What sports is it. Every sport.
S2 (12:54):
So there's a there's an interesting dynamic. Um, there is
sex abuse if you or bullying or emotional abuse in
every sport. Because there is all of those things in society.
And I would guess that, you know, the prevalence of
(13:17):
sex abuse in Australia is about the same as the
United States. You know, we have same cultural background. Um,
you know, we don't we we wouldn't tolerate that as
a society. And yes, and yet it still occurs. Center
for Disease Control in the US has said that something
like 1 in 6 women and 1 in 10 men
(13:39):
will be sexually abused by the time they're 18. Usually
in the home or uncle or other people like that,
or in school or in church or in club, but
it happens in sport too. And so, like it or not,
that's a part of sport and we have to take
it really seriously. Um, and what what I have observed
(14:07):
is that one of the biggest problems is that people
don't report. And they don't report because they don't think
anybody's going to do anything about it, or they think
they're going to be revictimized in the process or that, um,
(14:29):
you know, you have to go through this formal process
of reporting. And so it's only if you are an
eyewitness to the act that you report as opposed to.
I think there's something fishy going on. Would you guys
please look at it? Uh, so all of that, I think,
is the biggest problem. And what what you find out
(14:51):
to answer your question is the better job a sport
does at convincing people to come forward, the more cases
they're going to have. So if you look at a
sport that has a lot of cases. They're probably doing
a pretty good job causing people to come forward. In
(15:14):
my experience in swimming. You know. I don't know how many.
I don't know how many minor athletes they have. But
I'd guess close to 200,000 minor women. Well, statistically, there's
going to be abuse in society in that level. And
(15:36):
the minute we started really going after coaches and abusers hard,
more people came forward. So there were lots of cases.
S1 (15:46):
Is it mainly coaches?
S2 (15:48):
Um, yes. Sometimes it's other athletes, occasionally it's uh. An
athlete support person. When you, you know, the the worst
case in the United States is Larry Nassar, the doctor
in gymnastics. I'd never seen a doctor case out of hundreds.
(16:12):
He was the first one. Didn't mean that. They, like
other athletes, poor personnel, couldn't do it. But I was
pretty shocked to see that it was a doctor as
opposed to a coach or somebody else.
S1 (16:24):
Has the reporting system improved, do you think?
S5 (16:26):
Yeah.
S1 (16:27):
Yeah, because a number of athletes had come forward before
Larry Nassar was prosecuted many years beforehand.
S2 (16:34):
Yeah. The problem with the Nassar case was that. He's
you know, he's licensed in. Um, and as a chiropractor
and other things like that. And if you go to
the manual, there is something called, um, pelvic floor manipulation
(16:56):
that you use is actually a real treatment. And that's
what would happen. I mean, the Michigan State Police were
notified that this had happened to my daughter. And they
come and he shows them in the book where this
is a legitimate treatment and they say, okay. I mean,
that was it's real unique that way. It's different than.
S1 (17:20):
Because your daughter was a gymnast, wasn't she?
S2 (17:22):
Yeah. I mean, she wasn't she wasn't abused, but. No,
she was a she was on the national team during.
Well Larry Nassar was the was the doc.
S1 (17:32):
When you look at abuse and you say abuse. Most
people think of sexual abuse. But there are other forms
of abuse, aren't there? And that's where it becomes quite
a gray area. Is it a coach trying to get
the best out of an athlete? Is it direct abuse?
Is it hard to prosecute?
S2 (17:48):
Yes, yes, yes in a nutshell. And that will be
one of the issues for sport integrity. Australia is emotional abuse.
Is it is it motivational coaching. Is it what good
coaches do or is it emotional abuse? And, you know,
(18:13):
there are there are egregious, uh, examples like coaches beating
their athletes, physical abuse. Um, but the emotional abuse gets tough. Uh,
but you got to deal with the cases and bring
them because it's if you want kids to be safe
(18:34):
in sport or you want any athlete to be safe
in sport. It shouldn't be a world where in order
to achieve your athletic goals. You have to put up
with emotional abuse. Just like if you want kids to
love sport and succeed in sport, you shouldn't feel like
(18:55):
you got to dope in order to have a chance
to succeed.
S1 (18:59):
When athletes do bring abuse cases forward, sometimes there is
an element of disappointment that it doesn't go any further.
How do you deal with that in that athletes feel
let down by the system? Yet, you know, it's pretty
obvious in your mind that it can't proceed legally.
S2 (19:17):
Um, it's a great question. And what happens is you want.
Excuse me. You want the athlete to feel like they
have really been heard. You know, one of the things
that I'll be talking to people about while I'm down
here is having an athlete advocate. Uh, that they can
(19:40):
reach out to because your investigator is supposed to be neutral. Um,
you know, I'm when when I have sexual misconduct cases
involving a woman, I always have a woman on my
staff doing the contact with her just so that there is.
(20:03):
She perceives an empathy. Um, but having an advocate for
them is important. Uh, making sure that that the victim
is kept apprised of. The progress of the case so
(20:24):
that they don't feel like it's been dropped or abandoned. And,
and we've had we've had cases where the panel found
no abuse and the victim came to us and said,
thank you, thank you. So I'm not happy with that judgment,
but thank you. Thank you so much for bringing this
(20:46):
case and letting me have my day in court. And
that's what you want.
S1 (20:52):
Sport Integrity Australia of course, uh, has evolved from an
anti-doping organization to incorporate broader integrity issues safeguarding in sport,
sports wagering, etc.. How hard is it, do you think,
to bring them all together like this?
S2 (21:07):
Well, it's a it's it's hard. Um, and it takes resources.
And dealing with, uh, abuse cases is, frankly, a lot
harder than dealing with doping cases because you don't have
the code where we've tried to make things pretty black
and white. Um, but if you are concerned, as a
(21:35):
lot of people are rightly, that you don't want the
fox guarding the henhouse. You don't want the sport organization
guarding the hen house of anti-doping, or you don't want
them guarding the hen house of athlete protection. And if
I'm talking to my clients who are sporting organizations, you
(21:58):
don't want to be in that position. You really would
like to have somebody else independent. So if you lose
a case, it isn't because you punted it. It's because
it wasn't the right case. If you don't bring a case,
it wasn't because you were covering up for some world
class coach, it was because there wasn't a case. And
(22:22):
they're not going to believe that if you're the sport.
But people will believe it if it's independent. And so
it just gets you out of that lose lose box.
If you're a sporting organization.
S1 (22:35):
From your perspective, having dealt with so many abuse cases
in the United States, do you feel as though, given
that we've had a bit of a rise in the
number of people coming forward in Australia alleging abuse, is
this the tip of the iceberg, do you think in
Australian sport.
S2 (22:52):
It will be for a while?
S5 (22:54):
Yeah.
S2 (22:55):
I mean, I don't know all the Australian cases. I know,
you know, I've read the statements from Matty Groves didn't
come forward because she didn't think anybody would do anything
about it. My guess is that when it's clear that
Sport Integrity Australia is going to do something about it,
then more people will come forward. You know, if, if,
(23:17):
if coming forward is going to mean you're just going
to beat your head against a wall and retraumatize yourself,
why would you do it? It's that's the big problem, frankly,
that people don't come forward. You want to create an
atmosphere where it is conducive to their coming forward, and
they believe it will make a difference. And so when
(23:39):
you do that, yeah, you're going to have you're going
to have that bulge in the boa constrictors belly of cases.
You know, I want to be I want to I
now know it'll make a difference if I come forward.
So I will.
S1 (23:54):
And that's what happened in the US, didn't it? When
people started coming out, there was a rise in the
number of people emerging and and seeking justice.
S2 (24:04):
And now and now it's, uh, it isn't at the
same high level that it was. And it depends on
how you write your rules and what happens, and who
has authority to do what, uh, for old cases, you know,
I mean, the ones that are the ones that are
(24:24):
troublesome are. Let's say a coach who's been a predator
at multiple clubs in the past. But he hasn't done
anything under the new legislation. Somebody's got to deal with
that guy. Uh, and how that fits in with Sport
(24:46):
Integrity Australia, or whether that's thrown back to the sport again.
I don't know, but if you want to have credibility,
somebody is going to have to deal with that old situation.
S1 (24:57):
Historical issues are a, you know, a huge issue. But
I guess the framework that has been in place, the
National Integrity Framework, provides sports with an avenue going forward,
a framework going forward, a set of guidelines, which is
important to stop it happening in the future.
S2 (25:15):
Clearly, clearly and and. You know whether Sport Integrity Australia
gets involved in investigating old cases in agreement with the sport?
I mean, that's going to be David's call on resources. Um.
S5 (25:35):
But you know.
S2 (25:37):
What you need to do is to create confidence in
the victims of the world that somebody's going to do
something about this. If I come forward.
S1 (25:45):
Good on you, Richard. Thanks very much for coming. And, uh,
speaking to the people here at Sport Integrity Australia, very
committed to ensuring that the integrity of sport is protected
and that athletes are protected as well. And thank you
very much for coming down.
S2 (25:58):
You bet. My pleasure. And I'm really impressed with the
dedication and commitment of the people you've got working here.
S4 (26:07):
You're listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
S1 (26:14):
Hello and welcome back to onside. We've been joined by
Adair Donaldson. Adair is the director at the Australian law
firm Donaldson Law. He specialises in assisting survivors of trauma.
He works closely with sporting bodies addressing cultural issues with
respect to harassment, abuse, violence and alcohol related issues. Ladera
(26:35):
being in the inner circle, so to speak. Hearing stories
from athletes and sports first hand. How do you see
sport as being a positive driver in bringing about cultural change?
S3 (26:46):
So, Tim, first of all, my background, I'm a lawyer
based in regional Queensland, and I suppose what I was
seeing at the cold front was the coalface was that
that you're seeing these young people that are making really
poor decisions in relation to alcohol, drugs, sex fights, motor vehicles,
those sorts of things. And that's what we're facing, that
(27:06):
we're facing these issues as a society. And an opportunity
presented itself back in 2007, 2008, where we developed an
educational resource to really challenge audiences to, you know, to
address these issues. And that was when the NRL came knocking. And, uh,
since 2008, I've been working with the NRL and assisting
(27:30):
them to develop their educational resources. And what I can
say is that the great thing about sport is that
it disarms audiences. So that what I mean by that
is that, um, when an incident occurs and sometimes there's
really poor incidents that occur that may make the front
(27:51):
page of the newspaper, but it means that we're starting
to have that conversation in relation to these issues, and
people may want to talk about it, okay, it's a
sporting issue. But then if we start breaking it down,
we start having a wider conversation about what the impact
is having in the community. Um, and for me, that's
really important. I, uh, I look at the NRL, um,
(28:13):
and I may be biased here, but I certainly work
with a lot of sports. I certainly work with a
lot of schools and universities as well, and a lot
of employers. And what I can say is that, um,
the NRL is second to none when it comes to
addressing these social issues. And they have to be there's
let's not get ourselves because if one of these issues occur,
(28:36):
then they know that they're going to be under a
great deal of scrutiny. Um, but so you'd like to
think that they're doing it for altruistic reasons, to bring
about change, but they're also doing it for efficiency reasons
as well, because they know if they haven't got this
under control, that they are going to lose fans and
they're going to lose sponsors, etc., it's going to have
financial impact upon them if they don't get it right.
(28:58):
But certainly what I've seen over the years. Um, and
so if we go back to 2008, I think back
in 2008, very few people were talking about consent back
in 2008. Um, so the NRL has led the way
with respect to developing resources about consent training and those
types of matters, and then that has then permeated into
(29:19):
the wider community as well.
S1 (29:21):
Yeah, I'd imagine too, as a lawyer, um, it's a
very interesting time for you because there are different interpretations
on abuse. And legally, how does it stand up? Because
we're obviously see coaches on the sideline yelling out to
their athletes. Does that constitute abuse? Yes, yes. So as
(29:41):
a lawyer, I would imagine that that it's a very,
very fine line for you, but very interesting at the
same time. Very, very much so.
S3 (29:47):
And the law has been evolving in that space with
respect to, to abuse. But if I just come back
and talk about the law evolving in other areas as well.
So the law has changed. For instance, with respect to, to, um,
we've seen the law develop with respect to mobile phones
and social media. We've seen the law develop with respect
or change with respect to laws regarding consent. And so
(30:09):
as those laws have changed, what has what has the
NRL has had to do to educate their athletes is
to make sure that they're aware of those consequences. The
other issue that I suppose is a big issue for athletes,
and that is with respect to codes of conduct, um,
and we've seen the former Australian cricket captain fall on
his sword as a result of breaching a code of
(30:31):
conduct there. Um, a lot of people don't appreciate that.
In nearly every contract in the land, every employee in
the land is bound by a code of conduct these days.
And it talks about that you will not bring your employer.
Into disrepute, you know. Not only during work hours, but
outside of work hours as well. So that's a pretty
big issue. Um, and again, the only time that we
(30:54):
start talking about those issues is when we see a
sportsperson that gets, you know, falls foul of it.
S5 (31:00):
Yes.
S1 (31:01):
Do you find that, um, for instance, athlete A was
a driver for people coming out. And as we see
more and more abuse cases and more and more cases
of athletes transgressing and coaches transgressing, do you find that
that there is greater awareness now and people feel as
though they've got a greater voice to come to people
(31:22):
like you?
S3 (31:23):
Tim. It is one of the the greatest privileges that
that we've had or, um, is that we've been able
to look after those incredible women that came forward, um,
in the wake of athlete A and called out the
behaviours that had occurred in the past. Now, it took
(31:43):
such courage for them to come forward. And I if
I look back on those group of gymnasts and gymnastics
in particular, is the wonderful thing that they had, was
this solidarity amongst them all. There wasn't just one person
coming out and saying, hey, this is what's happened, and
then leaving that person out there to be carrying the
weight themselves. This was this group of incredible women that
(32:05):
came forward and said, what happened to us as children
should never, ever have happened and it needs to be
changed now in the wake of them coming forward. We've
seen what happened. We've seen that the steps that the
sport integrity Australia has taken, we've seen the the, um,
the redress scheme that has been put in place by, uh, um,
(32:26):
by the Australian government so that that the power of
those women and them coming forward and sharing their trauma
has made such a big difference for others. And I
can say that those women are the most incredible and
and impressive women. Um, what they survived and what they
(32:47):
were put through as children should never have occurred. Um,
and you would like to think that there's other sports
that are looking at what happened in gymnastics and they're saying,
but for the grace of God, we weren't out there,
but we should learn from that experience, and we should
make sure that we're implementing all those recommendations that came
(33:09):
out of the difference, inquiries into our own sport. Um,
that would be a really big start, uh, because we
can learn so much as a result of of the
gymnastics experience.
S1 (33:21):
How did the athletes end up coming to you? How
did these gymnasts know to go to a dead Donaldson?
S3 (33:27):
Oh, I'm I suppose that over the years I've developed a.
A reputation in that area of standing up for athletes rights.
And as a result of that, they reached out to me.
And because it is a trust.
S1 (33:43):
Thing, isn't it?
S3 (33:44):
It is a trust thing. And that's. David. So what
we do is we look after people that have survived
trauma and institutions. And generally speaking, it takes a long
time for a person to come forward to share that trauma.
And when they do come forward, that's a big effort.
You know, that's a big step for them to take.
And you're right. It it involves developing trust there. Um,
(34:07):
and uh, I suppose what it makes is from my perspective, um.
It is very, uh. It makes it very easy to
do your job when you're looking after such incredible people
that are strong, courageous. Um.
S1 (34:26):
Are they looking for somebody to speak to, or are
they looking for for redress, as you've mentioned? Are they
looking to punish? No. What are they? What do they
look what are they looking for?
S3 (34:36):
So one of the things a lot of people say
that when people that have survived abuse come forward, it's
all about money. Well, that's not what it is in
my experience. Invariably, when a survivor comes forward that has
survived abuse in an institution, they're looking for four A's.
And the four A's are the first acknowledgement, an acknowledgement
of what happened. Uh, secondly, an apology. Thirdly, an assurance
(35:00):
by them coming forward and sharing their trauma that it's
going to make a difference for others and then finally, assistance.
So you'll appreciate that when we talk about those young
athletes that came forward, uh, you know, children and some
of them were talking six, seven, eight years of age
when it started that they've got debilitating injuries as a
result of what they experienced. Um, they're receiving no support
(35:21):
at the moment. There's no support out there for them.
So it's pretty important to make sure that there is
going to be some assistance that's provided to them. Um,
and the government has done that recently with establishing the
the redress scheme that's available for people that went through, um,
through the Australian Institute of Sport. Um, so that's, that's important.
(35:43):
That was a that was a very positive step that
was taken by the Australian government. But I'd like to
see that rolled out to a far wider group.
S1 (35:52):
Given your experience is the tip of the iceberg, or
do you expect a lot more to be on its way?
S3 (36:00):
Uh, I think that we're talking about these issues. I
think that that more people feel comfortable coming forward now
and sharing their, uh, understanding or their experiences of what happened. Um,
I think that we, uh, that that that episode that
happened with gymnastics, what made that unique was that there
(36:21):
was a large cohort of these women that had solidarity
with each other. Each one of them had each other's back.
That's what made it so incredible. They all came forward.
It wasn't just one out. It was a group of, um, uh,
of former, uh, gymnasts that came forward that said, hey,
this is what happened. It wasn't good enough. There has
(36:42):
to be change. So it was that solidarity. I think
that that's quite unique. Um, we've seen other sports where it's, um, uh,
for instance, in relation to swimming, it seems that with swimming,
they've done a recent investigation there, and I think that
to their credit, they came out and they have acknowledged
(37:03):
that they have had issues in the past. Um, but
what we saw with swimming was it wasn't that group of,
of athletes coming forward banding together to tell their stories.
S1 (37:16):
The National Integrity Framework, do you see that as an
important piece of work going forward, in that at least
sports now have an understanding of framework and guidelines about
their responsibilities? Oh, very.
S3 (37:30):
Much so, very much so. And that, again is a
very positive step to take. And that has been largely
led by David. He obviously has got an incredible support
team behind him. But David Sharp has led that. Um,
and I think that it's incredibly important for sports. Um,
it gives sports a lot of comfort, I suppose, from
a point of view that they know that there's an
(37:51):
independent body that's going to be reviewing it, that the
complaints can go to, that it's going to be an
independent investigation that's then going to be held. So that's
really that that is very important. Um, and if we
use other examples of how that has had success in
other areas, um, I know for instance, with the Australian
Defence Force, when they had allegations with respect to abuse
(38:13):
and integrity and those sorts of things, that they set
up an independent body that people could then make their
complaints to. So I actually think that that is a
really positive thing because, um, you know, from the sports body,
you know, from the sporting organisation, it's got some comfort
then knowing, well, there's going to be an independent body
that's going to be reviewing us, you know, that's going
(38:34):
to be holding us to account that that's what important.
S1 (38:38):
Not everybody who feels as though they have been abused
is going to get comfort from it, though. Let's be frank.
And they might feel as though not enough action is taken.
And so not everybody is going to be satisfied.
S3 (38:50):
And that's that's going to be, um, the case no
matter what. We are not going to be a, um.
S6 (38:58):
Uh.
S3 (38:59):
There is going to be, um. A significant number of
people that won't be happy with that process, but it's
the best we've got, and it's a far lot better
than what we've had in the past. So that to
me is a really good step in the right direction.
S1 (39:18):
Yes. What do you see as the future? You know,
are we going to see less abuse cases? Are we
going to see more and more people come out and
talk about historical abuse? Where do you see the the
future going?
S3 (39:30):
Well, first of all, I would like to think that that, um,
that well, first of all, I think the statistics will
show that more people will come forward and report in
relation to historical incidences. The reason for that is they're
going to have the courage to come forward listening to
other people and they'll say, okay, they now feel comfortable
coming forward and sharing their trauma to make a difference,
(39:54):
but that that means that the system is working. That
means that people feel comfortable, um, and that they and
safe in coming forward in reporting and knowing that it's
going to be handled correctly. So that's a good thing. Okay.
So I would expect that there should be a, a spike. Um,
but gradually that will then Taylor off. Um, if you
(40:18):
have a look, for instance, I know that, um, what
happened over in the States with the, um, uh, uh,
in relation to the US armed forces, uh, they had
they introduced a new body in relation to dealing with, uh,
claims in relation to abuse and inappropriate behavior. And they
(40:41):
introduced it. And then the statistics showed that the incidence
had been reported, had trebled. And they said, listen, it
mustn't be working, you know, because look, it's it's just risen.
It hasn't become, um, better, it's got worse. And their
response there was no, it's actually got better because from
(41:02):
the point of view that people now feel comfortable coming
along and reporting. So I would like to think that
there will be I don't think anybody should be surprised
if we do see a spike in, um, in people
reporting abuse that has occurred, historical abuse that has occurred. Um,
and what that will show is that people feel comfortable
(41:24):
coming forward and sharing their trauma.
S1 (41:26):
How should historical abuse be dealt with then? Um, we've
had obviously the Human Rights Commission have a look at
a number of issues, but I just wonder how can
historical issues be dealt with from a sporting perspective, from
a sport?
S3 (41:41):
Well, obviously there's a national redress scheme, which is if.
S1 (41:45):
It's not sexual abuse, yes. How can it be dealt with, uh.
S3 (41:50):
Which part of you're looking at.
S7 (41:51):
Okay, so, so from a.
S1 (41:53):
Coach's sort of forcing athletes to train and they're suffering
lifelong injuries or they've got eating disorders, etc.. So how
do you how do you rectify historical abuse?
S6 (42:05):
Well, it depends.
S3 (42:06):
What the athlete, what the claimant is, is seeking. So
a lot of claimants may well be seeking that they're
after an acknowledgement, an apology for what has occurred in
the past and assurance that systems have then changed. Um,
now that's maybe what they're seeking. And what will happen
is if they were a minor at that point in time,
they've still obviously got their, uh, all their rights to
(42:27):
then pursue, um, their entitlements. Um, now, what you're saying
there is what happens if it's not sexual abuse in
some of the states? Obviously, the legislation says that in
relation to physical abuse that they may have suffered. Okay.
Is still, um, is still able to be pursued against
the organization.
S1 (42:46):
From a police perspective or.
S3 (42:48):
No, no, not from a police perspective, from a from
a civil perspective. Obviously, people have still got their their
rights in relation to their criminal claims that they may
and they'll always have those, um, but, uh, you know,
there is still um, I would like to think that
people that have, uh, survived abuse, physical abuse within, uh, um,
(43:14):
sporting organisations, um, have got significant options open for them
to pursue rights. Now.
S1 (43:23):
Where did athletes come to before you came on the
scene or before people like you came on the scene?
Did they just keep quiet?
S3 (43:30):
Oh, they kept quiet. Yeah, they kept quiet. Um.
S8 (43:35):
Uh, there is, uh.
S6 (43:38):
Tim, you're.
S3 (43:38):
Aware that over the last 3 or 4 years, there's
been some very high profile matters that have come forward
or that are being going through the courts in relation
to allegations of serious abuse that has occurred. Um, and
though they have resulted in criminal charges.
S6 (43:56):
Um, and I.
S3 (43:58):
Suspect the reason why people are coming forward now is that, um,
they feel confident that they will be listened to. And
so isn't that good? You know, because in the past
that these people have just suffered in silence.
S1 (44:12):
Have you been surprised by the size of the issue
when you first got that call from, say, a gymnast
or a swimmer?
S3 (44:18):
No, I suppose it doesn't surprise me, because after being
in this field for so long, you know that.
S6 (44:25):
That um.
S3 (44:27):
Where these children. Unfortunately, there has been abuse.
S1 (44:32):
Yes, but it seems as though it's everywhere at the moment,
doesn't it? Pick up the paper and there seems to
be an abuse case, almost on a daily basis before
the courts, where previously that hadn't been as much, and
it was almost like a hidden problem, I guess. And
I just wonder, did you think, oh, possibly they're not
(44:52):
going to come out and speak about it?
S3 (44:54):
I suppose for the last 25 years, I've been working
in the space of assisting people that have survived abuse.
So after 25 years, you probably develop an approach where
you think, okay, well, there is going to be some
bad people out there and that they will have done
bad things. Um, and, uh, you know, to me, I
come back to the fact that if we can be
(45:17):
assisting and caring for people now and to be assisting
them to to get through the trauma and that they
feel as if they've been heard and they're getting an
assurance that by them sharing their trauma, that's going to
make a difference for others. Well, isn't that an incredible thing?
You know, that these people can come forward and something
that that they walk away thinking, well, as a result
(45:38):
of my sharing my trauma, I have made a difference
for others.
S1 (45:42):
Well, it's good that they feel as though they've got
somewhere to go to now. Yeah. Whether it be you
or Sport Integrity Australia or whoever, they know they're going
to be listened to.
S7 (45:50):
Yeah.
S3 (45:50):
And that's, that's very positive idea.
S1 (45:53):
Keep up the good work.
S3 (45:54):
Oh thank you so much Tim. Thank you. Hey, thanks
for showing interest, Tim.
S4 (46:00):
And now for our segment from Left Field where we
answer a question from the public.
S9 (46:08):
G'day I'm Riley, athlete educator with Sport Integrity Australia. Today's
from left field. Question is who's responsible for keeping kids
safe in sport? It's everyone's responsibility to keep kids safe.
As a person involved in sport, you play a crucial
role in keeping our kids safe. If you've experienced or
witnessed poor behaviour in sport, you can make a complaint
(46:30):
to Sport Integrity Australia via our website.
S4 (46:40):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport integrity.gov Edu. For more information on Sport
Integrity Australia, please visit our website at Sport Integrity gov.au
(47:02):
or check out our Clean Sport app.
You've worked in some really big cases. Lance Armstrong, Sun Yang,
Alberto Salazar, Balco.
S2 (00:06):
Well, in throw in Essendon as well. Is it motivational coaching?
Is it what good coaches do or is it emotional abuse?
It shouldn't be a world where in order to achieve
your athletic goals, you have to put up with emotional abuse.
Just like if you want kids to love sport and
(00:28):
succeed in sport, you shouldn't feel like you got a
dope in order to have a chance to succeed.
S3 (00:33):
The great thing about sport is that it disarms audiences.
What we do is we look after people that have
survived trauma and institutions, and generally speaking, it takes a
long time for a person to come forward to share
that trauma. And when they do come forward, well, that's
a big effort. I suspect the reason why people are
coming forward now is that they feel confident that they
(00:56):
will be listened to.
S4 (01:10):
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S1 (01:28):
Hello and welcome to One Side, the official podcast for
Sport Integrity Australia. I'm Tim Gavel. Our podcast provides listeners
with an opportunity to learn about integrity issues through athletes,
coaches and administrators talking about contemporary and historical moments. On
this episode, we'll be joined by two leading sports lawyers,
(01:48):
Richard Young and Adair Donaldson. Sport Integrity Australia's 2023 annual
update is out later this month. The course is for athletes,
support personnel and other members of the Australian sporting community
to highlight changes to the world Anti-Doping agency prohibited list,
as well as providing other integrity information that is vital
(02:09):
to know in 2023. In other news, Sport Integrity Australia
will be sending a team member to Interpol on a
secondment to share knowledge and help with the development of
a united approach to getting ahead of the global match
fixing threat. And we'd like to congratulate our sports engagement.
Team members Richard Nicholson and Petria Thomas were honoured by
the University of Canberra for their contribution to the sports
(02:32):
industry and congratulations to Doctor Kira James, who was announced
as the inaugural winner of the Ken Fitch Fellowship Award
earlier this month. US lawyer Richard Young is a leader
in anti-doping litigation. He was the lead drafter of the
original world Anti-Doping code and subsequent code amendments, and he's
(02:54):
worked on doping cases against tour de France winners Lance
Armstrong and Floyd Landis, Marion Jones and the Balco doping scandal.
He has worked on the Essendon supplement case. He served
on the Court of Arbitration for sport. Richard has also
been involved in drafting and enforcing safe sport rules for
sporting organisations. Richard, welcome to one side. You've done many cases.
(03:19):
You've been really working in this space for a long
time now. Firstly, can you tell us about your career
in anti-doping and and what led you down this path?
S2 (03:27):
So my background as a lawyer was as a commercial litigator.
I had some opportunities 30 some years ago to represent
national sport organisations. One of my early opportunities was in
the Quigley case, where an American shooter named George Quigley
(03:48):
had won a World Cup, uh, and then tested positive
and had his medal taken away. And it took a
shooting spot away from the US Olympic Committee. So they
sent me over to CAS to appeal that. And it
was one of the early cast cases. And back then,
(04:10):
the shooting rules said doping was the intentional use of
a performance enhancing of a prohibited substance with the aim
of enhancing performance. And this is clearly a case where
he got he was sick as a dog and the
doctor gave him a medicine called Bronchophony with the label
in Arabic, and looked at the list and told him
(04:31):
there was nothing prohibited. So it wasn't a doping violation.
I mean, we've since gone to strict liability, but it
wasn't then. And so, um. He got his medal back
and us got it shooting spot back. And this was
a high profile case. And CAS said, you seem to
(04:54):
understand this. Would you like to be one of our arbitrators?
And so I was a CAS arbitrator for a while
and ended up being on the ad hoc panels for
Nagano and Sydney. And then I did more and more
and more cases, either as an arbitrator or as an advocate.
I decided I really shouldn't be both, and so I
(05:17):
decided to be an advocate and resigned from CAS. And
I did more and more cases and wrote rules for
International Federations and the like. And then. When it came
time to write the world Anti-Doping code, they asked if
I'd lead that effort. So, you know, I, I was
a commercial litigator, but is it more fun to be
(05:42):
a commercial litigator, or is it more fun to be
involved in sport in an area like anti-doping? When I'm
passionate about clean sport. I got to be a pretty
easy decision. So, you know, I had a chance to
do what I really liked. You know, I'm with a
great big law firm and most of my partners have
(06:02):
to read the financial section of the paper first thing
every morning. My job is to open up the sports page.
You know, you can't get much better than that.
S1 (06:11):
You've worked in some really big cases Lance Armstrong, Sun Yang,
Alberto Salazar, Balco. What has been the most interesting of
those cases, do you think? Obviously, the Lance Armstrong was
the highest profile.
S2 (06:27):
Yeah. Um, well, in throw in Essendon as well. Yes.
I was going to ask you about the Australian element
in a moment. Um, I mean, and the Russian investigation,
they've all they've all been really interesting. Uh, none of
them were sure when cases. Uh, and so, you know,
(06:49):
a case like an Armstrong case is a little like
extreme skiing. If you fall, you die. Uh, and so
the agency was seriously at risk. Um, I probably wouldn't
pick a favorite. Um, they've all been really interesting. I mean,
the which one did you.
S1 (07:09):
Lose sleep over? Did you think?
S2 (07:10):
All of them. Okay. I mean, uh, it's funny, as
I've gotten older, I. I know more how much I
don't know. And so I actually do lose sleep. I
was a competitive tennis player in college. And, you know,
(07:31):
they're the matches that, uh, you know, you're going to win.
I don't have any physical symptoms. They're the matches where
you know you're going to lose. I don't have any
physical symptoms. It's the matches where you should win. But
you could lose that. I get the dry cough and
have a hard time sleeping. You know, it's the same
(07:52):
thing with some of these big cases. And it doesn't.
It doesn't really bother me that I get that way.
It's just that's what adrenaline does to my body. And
I've learned from being an athlete that don't sweat it,
you know, you'll be fine, you're fine as an athlete
and you'll be fine trying these cases. Did you get.
S1 (08:11):
Much pushback from your role in these cases?
S2 (08:15):
Um. Well. Probably the. If we would have. Yeah, yeah.
Because I'm not real welcome in China because of Xinjiang.
I was getting to that. Yes. I'm not going back
to Russia. Uh, because of role in the Russian investigation. Um.
(08:42):
After the Essendon case. I sure got a lot of
letters from Melbourne about how the result in that case
had had ruined somebody's father's life.
S1 (08:55):
Tell us about your role in the Essendon case and
what it meant to you to to see it through.
S2 (09:02):
Um. Well, it was interesting. You know, I'd done work for, uh.
Asada and asada on different investigations and different things before.
And it was, you know, Mr. Dank and his thymosin
(09:23):
beta four and it involved Cronulla, it involved Essendon. And
so I worked a lot with Asada on both of those.
And then we ended up representing WADA in the appeal
in the Essendon case. And it was not a slam
(09:46):
dunk case. You know, we, we thought it was a
righteous case and good and WADA thought it was a
righteous case and good and good lawyers on the other side. Um, and.
You know. The sport was very concerned about the consequence
(10:11):
to the sport. And our view was, look, under the code,
this is what needs to happen is.
S1 (10:22):
Much is said about the fact that none of the
players tested positive in a similar way, I guess, to
Lance Armstrong, in that for years he was tested yet
never tested positive. And I guess that is a recurring
theme in a lot of social media when it comes
to Essendon. But there are many other anti doping rule violations. Yeah.
(10:46):
As opposed to sort of simply testing positive. Right.
S2 (10:48):
And you know Lance said I was I was tested
300 times and I never tested positive. The same was
true with Marion Jones. Same is true in a lot
of our big cases. Um, and that just means that
they were very good at either being tipped off that
the collectors were coming, or in being very careful when
(11:11):
and how they doped that it wouldn't be detected. I mean,
for a long time we couldn't detect. In fact, it
wasn't until I think, the Sydney Games that we started
testing for EPO. And that was the drug of choice
in the cycling community. So yeah, he just tested 300 times,
but it wasn't he wasn't tested for EPO effectively. So
(11:36):
that's not a real good that's not a real good excuse.
Now our best our most significant cases are all non
analytical investigation cases.
S1 (11:46):
Does it surprise you that the Essendon issue continues to
bubble along.
S2 (11:51):
Um. A little bit. I mean, it's it was, uh,
I mean, books have been written about it. It was
in the press pretty constantly. I mean, it was a
big deal. I mean, Essendon Club was a major club.
It you know, it'd be like the Dallas Cowboys in
(12:13):
American football and, you know, all but a couple of
their players got suspended and it you know that it
screwed up the competitive equity in the league and all
that kind of stuff. But. You know, to us we
had to deal with it as where the rules violated
or weren't they?
S1 (12:34):
Moving away from anti-doping onto abuse, because you also work
in the abuse of athletes in sport, and you've done
a number of high profile cases in that area as well.
S2 (12:45):
Yeah, and a lot of of low profile cases too. Um, what.
S1 (12:50):
Range do you go through? What sports is it. Every sport.
S2 (12:54):
So there's a there's an interesting dynamic. Um, there is
sex abuse if you or bullying or emotional abuse in
every sport. Because there is all of those things in society.
And I would guess that, you know, the prevalence of
(13:17):
sex abuse in Australia is about the same as the
United States. You know, we have same cultural background. Um,
you know, we don't we we wouldn't tolerate that as
a society. And yes, and yet it still occurs. Center
for Disease Control in the US has said that something
like 1 in 6 women and 1 in 10 men
(13:39):
will be sexually abused by the time they're 18. Usually
in the home or uncle or other people like that,
or in school or in church or in club, but
it happens in sport too. And so, like it or not,
that's a part of sport and we have to take
it really seriously. Um, and what what I have observed
(14:07):
is that one of the biggest problems is that people
don't report. And they don't report because they don't think
anybody's going to do anything about it, or they think
they're going to be revictimized in the process or that, um,
(14:29):
you know, you have to go through this formal process
of reporting. And so it's only if you are an
eyewitness to the act that you report as opposed to.
I think there's something fishy going on. Would you guys
please look at it? Uh, so all of that, I think,
is the biggest problem. And what what you find out
(14:51):
to answer your question is the better job a sport
does at convincing people to come forward, the more cases
they're going to have. So if you look at a
sport that has a lot of cases. They're probably doing
a pretty good job causing people to come forward. In
(15:14):
my experience in swimming. You know. I don't know how many.
I don't know how many minor athletes they have. But
I'd guess close to 200,000 minor women. Well, statistically, there's
going to be abuse in society in that level. And
(15:36):
the minute we started really going after coaches and abusers hard,
more people came forward. So there were lots of cases.
S1 (15:46):
Is it mainly coaches?
S2 (15:48):
Um, yes. Sometimes it's other athletes, occasionally it's uh. An
athlete support person. When you, you know, the the worst
case in the United States is Larry Nassar, the doctor
in gymnastics. I'd never seen a doctor case out of hundreds.
(16:12):
He was the first one. Didn't mean that. They, like
other athletes, poor personnel, couldn't do it. But I was
pretty shocked to see that it was a doctor as
opposed to a coach or somebody else.
S1 (16:24):
Has the reporting system improved, do you think?
S5 (16:26):
Yeah.
S1 (16:27):
Yeah, because a number of athletes had come forward before
Larry Nassar was prosecuted many years beforehand.
S2 (16:34):
Yeah. The problem with the Nassar case was that. He's
you know, he's licensed in. Um, and as a chiropractor
and other things like that. And if you go to
the manual, there is something called, um, pelvic floor manipulation
(16:56):
that you use is actually a real treatment. And that's
what would happen. I mean, the Michigan State Police were
notified that this had happened to my daughter. And they
come and he shows them in the book where this
is a legitimate treatment and they say, okay. I mean,
that was it's real unique that way. It's different than.
S1 (17:20):
Because your daughter was a gymnast, wasn't she?
S2 (17:22):
Yeah. I mean, she wasn't she wasn't abused, but. No,
she was a she was on the national team during.
Well Larry Nassar was the was the doc.
S1 (17:32):
When you look at abuse and you say abuse. Most
people think of sexual abuse. But there are other forms
of abuse, aren't there? And that's where it becomes quite
a gray area. Is it a coach trying to get
the best out of an athlete? Is it direct abuse?
Is it hard to prosecute?
S2 (17:48):
Yes, yes, yes in a nutshell. And that will be
one of the issues for sport integrity. Australia is emotional abuse.
Is it is it motivational coaching. Is it what good
coaches do or is it emotional abuse? And, you know,
(18:13):
there are there are egregious, uh, examples like coaches beating
their athletes, physical abuse. Um, but the emotional abuse gets tough. Uh,
but you got to deal with the cases and bring
them because it's if you want kids to be safe
(18:34):
in sport or you want any athlete to be safe
in sport. It shouldn't be a world where in order
to achieve your athletic goals. You have to put up
with emotional abuse. Just like if you want kids to
love sport and succeed in sport, you shouldn't feel like
(18:55):
you got to dope in order to have a chance
to succeed.
S1 (18:59):
When athletes do bring abuse cases forward, sometimes there is
an element of disappointment that it doesn't go any further.
How do you deal with that in that athletes feel
let down by the system? Yet, you know, it's pretty
obvious in your mind that it can't proceed legally.
S2 (19:17):
Um, it's a great question. And what happens is you want.
Excuse me. You want the athlete to feel like they
have really been heard. You know, one of the things
that I'll be talking to people about while I'm down
here is having an athlete advocate. Uh, that they can
(19:40):
reach out to because your investigator is supposed to be neutral. Um,
you know, I'm when when I have sexual misconduct cases
involving a woman, I always have a woman on my
staff doing the contact with her just so that there is.
(20:03):
She perceives an empathy. Um, but having an advocate for
them is important. Uh, making sure that that the victim
is kept apprised of. The progress of the case so
(20:24):
that they don't feel like it's been dropped or abandoned. And,
and we've had we've had cases where the panel found
no abuse and the victim came to us and said,
thank you, thank you. So I'm not happy with that judgment,
but thank you. Thank you so much for bringing this
(20:46):
case and letting me have my day in court. And
that's what you want.
S1 (20:52):
Sport Integrity Australia of course, uh, has evolved from an
anti-doping organization to incorporate broader integrity issues safeguarding in sport,
sports wagering, etc.. How hard is it, do you think,
to bring them all together like this?
S2 (21:07):
Well, it's a it's it's hard. Um, and it takes resources.
And dealing with, uh, abuse cases is, frankly, a lot
harder than dealing with doping cases because you don't have
the code where we've tried to make things pretty black
and white. Um, but if you are concerned, as a
(21:35):
lot of people are rightly, that you don't want the
fox guarding the henhouse. You don't want the sport organization
guarding the hen house of anti-doping, or you don't want
them guarding the hen house of athlete protection. And if
I'm talking to my clients who are sporting organizations, you
(21:58):
don't want to be in that position. You really would
like to have somebody else independent. So if you lose
a case, it isn't because you punted it. It's because
it wasn't the right case. If you don't bring a case,
it wasn't because you were covering up for some world
class coach, it was because there wasn't a case. And
(22:22):
they're not going to believe that if you're the sport.
But people will believe it if it's independent. And so
it just gets you out of that lose lose box.
If you're a sporting organization.
S1 (22:35):
From your perspective, having dealt with so many abuse cases
in the United States, do you feel as though, given
that we've had a bit of a rise in the
number of people coming forward in Australia alleging abuse, is
this the tip of the iceberg, do you think in
Australian sport.
S2 (22:52):
It will be for a while?
S5 (22:54):
Yeah.
S2 (22:55):
I mean, I don't know all the Australian cases. I know,
you know, I've read the statements from Matty Groves didn't
come forward because she didn't think anybody would do anything
about it. My guess is that when it's clear that
Sport Integrity Australia is going to do something about it,
then more people will come forward. You know, if, if,
(23:17):
if coming forward is going to mean you're just going
to beat your head against a wall and retraumatize yourself,
why would you do it? It's that's the big problem, frankly,
that people don't come forward. You want to create an
atmosphere where it is conducive to their coming forward, and
they believe it will make a difference. And so when
(23:39):
you do that, yeah, you're going to have you're going
to have that bulge in the boa constrictors belly of cases.
You know, I want to be I want to I
now know it'll make a difference if I come forward.
So I will.
S1 (23:54):
And that's what happened in the US, didn't it? When
people started coming out, there was a rise in the
number of people emerging and and seeking justice.
S2 (24:04):
And now and now it's, uh, it isn't at the
same high level that it was. And it depends on
how you write your rules and what happens, and who
has authority to do what, uh, for old cases, you know,
I mean, the ones that are the ones that are
(24:24):
troublesome are. Let's say a coach who's been a predator
at multiple clubs in the past. But he hasn't done
anything under the new legislation. Somebody's got to deal with
that guy. Uh, and how that fits in with Sport
(24:46):
Integrity Australia, or whether that's thrown back to the sport again.
I don't know, but if you want to have credibility,
somebody is going to have to deal with that old situation.
S1 (24:57):
Historical issues are a, you know, a huge issue. But
I guess the framework that has been in place, the
National Integrity Framework, provides sports with an avenue going forward,
a framework going forward, a set of guidelines, which is
important to stop it happening in the future.
S2 (25:15):
Clearly, clearly and and. You know whether Sport Integrity Australia
gets involved in investigating old cases in agreement with the sport?
I mean, that's going to be David's call on resources. Um.
S5 (25:35):
But you know.
S2 (25:37):
What you need to do is to create confidence in
the victims of the world that somebody's going to do
something about this. If I come forward.
S1 (25:45):
Good on you, Richard. Thanks very much for coming. And, uh,
speaking to the people here at Sport Integrity Australia, very
committed to ensuring that the integrity of sport is protected
and that athletes are protected as well. And thank you
very much for coming down.
S2 (25:58):
You bet. My pleasure. And I'm really impressed with the
dedication and commitment of the people you've got working here.
S4 (26:07):
You're listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
S1 (26:14):
Hello and welcome back to onside. We've been joined by
Adair Donaldson. Adair is the director at the Australian law
firm Donaldson Law. He specialises in assisting survivors of trauma.
He works closely with sporting bodies addressing cultural issues with
respect to harassment, abuse, violence and alcohol related issues. Ladera
(26:35):
being in the inner circle, so to speak. Hearing stories
from athletes and sports first hand. How do you see
sport as being a positive driver in bringing about cultural change?
S3 (26:46):
So, Tim, first of all, my background, I'm a lawyer
based in regional Queensland, and I suppose what I was
seeing at the cold front was the coalface was that
that you're seeing these young people that are making really
poor decisions in relation to alcohol, drugs, sex fights, motor vehicles,
those sorts of things. And that's what we're facing, that
(27:06):
we're facing these issues as a society. And an opportunity
presented itself back in 2007, 2008, where we developed an
educational resource to really challenge audiences to, you know, to
address these issues. And that was when the NRL came knocking. And, uh,
since 2008, I've been working with the NRL and assisting
(27:30):
them to develop their educational resources. And what I can
say is that the great thing about sport is that
it disarms audiences. So that what I mean by that
is that, um, when an incident occurs and sometimes there's
really poor incidents that occur that may make the front
(27:51):
page of the newspaper, but it means that we're starting
to have that conversation in relation to these issues, and
people may want to talk about it, okay, it's a
sporting issue. But then if we start breaking it down,
we start having a wider conversation about what the impact
is having in the community. Um, and for me, that's
really important. I, uh, I look at the NRL, um,
(28:13):
and I may be biased here, but I certainly work
with a lot of sports. I certainly work with a
lot of schools and universities as well, and a lot
of employers. And what I can say is that, um,
the NRL is second to none when it comes to
addressing these social issues. And they have to be there's
let's not get ourselves because if one of these issues occur,
(28:36):
then they know that they're going to be under a
great deal of scrutiny. Um, but so you'd like to
think that they're doing it for altruistic reasons, to bring
about change, but they're also doing it for efficiency reasons
as well, because they know if they haven't got this
under control, that they are going to lose fans and
they're going to lose sponsors, etc., it's going to have
financial impact upon them if they don't get it right.
(28:58):
But certainly what I've seen over the years. Um, and
so if we go back to 2008, I think back
in 2008, very few people were talking about consent back
in 2008. Um, so the NRL has led the way
with respect to developing resources about consent training and those
types of matters, and then that has then permeated into
(29:19):
the wider community as well.
S1 (29:21):
Yeah, I'd imagine too, as a lawyer, um, it's a
very interesting time for you because there are different interpretations
on abuse. And legally, how does it stand up? Because
we're obviously see coaches on the sideline yelling out to
their athletes. Does that constitute abuse? Yes, yes. So as
(29:41):
a lawyer, I would imagine that that it's a very,
very fine line for you, but very interesting at the
same time. Very, very much so.
S3 (29:47):
And the law has been evolving in that space with
respect to, to abuse. But if I just come back
and talk about the law evolving in other areas as well.
So the law has changed. For instance, with respect to, to, um,
we've seen the law develop with respect to mobile phones
and social media. We've seen the law develop with respect
or change with respect to laws regarding consent. And so
(30:09):
as those laws have changed, what has what has the
NRL has had to do to educate their athletes is
to make sure that they're aware of those consequences. The
other issue that I suppose is a big issue for athletes,
and that is with respect to codes of conduct, um,
and we've seen the former Australian cricket captain fall on
his sword as a result of breaching a code of
(30:31):
conduct there. Um, a lot of people don't appreciate that.
In nearly every contract in the land, every employee in
the land is bound by a code of conduct these days.
And it talks about that you will not bring your employer.
Into disrepute, you know. Not only during work hours, but
outside of work hours as well. So that's a pretty
big issue. Um, and again, the only time that we
(30:54):
start talking about those issues is when we see a
sportsperson that gets, you know, falls foul of it.
S5 (31:00):
Yes.
S1 (31:01):
Do you find that, um, for instance, athlete A was
a driver for people coming out. And as we see
more and more abuse cases and more and more cases
of athletes transgressing and coaches transgressing, do you find that
that there is greater awareness now and people feel as
though they've got a greater voice to come to people
(31:22):
like you?
S3 (31:23):
Tim. It is one of the the greatest privileges that
that we've had or, um, is that we've been able
to look after those incredible women that came forward, um,
in the wake of athlete A and called out the
behaviours that had occurred in the past. Now, it took
(31:43):
such courage for them to come forward. And I if
I look back on those group of gymnasts and gymnastics
in particular, is the wonderful thing that they had, was
this solidarity amongst them all. There wasn't just one person
coming out and saying, hey, this is what's happened, and
then leaving that person out there to be carrying the
weight themselves. This was this group of incredible women that
(32:05):
came forward and said, what happened to us as children
should never, ever have happened and it needs to be
changed now in the wake of them coming forward. We've
seen what happened. We've seen that the steps that the
sport integrity Australia has taken, we've seen the the, um,
the redress scheme that has been put in place by, uh, um,
(32:26):
by the Australian government so that that the power of
those women and them coming forward and sharing their trauma
has made such a big difference for others. And I
can say that those women are the most incredible and
and impressive women. Um, what they survived and what they
(32:47):
were put through as children should never have occurred. Um,
and you would like to think that there's other sports
that are looking at what happened in gymnastics and they're saying,
but for the grace of God, we weren't out there,
but we should learn from that experience, and we should
make sure that we're implementing all those recommendations that came
(33:09):
out of the difference, inquiries into our own sport. Um,
that would be a really big start, uh, because we
can learn so much as a result of of the
gymnastics experience.
S1 (33:21):
How did the athletes end up coming to you? How
did these gymnasts know to go to a dead Donaldson?
S3 (33:27):
Oh, I'm I suppose that over the years I've developed a.
A reputation in that area of standing up for athletes rights.
And as a result of that, they reached out to me.
And because it is a trust.
S1 (33:43):
Thing, isn't it?
S3 (33:44):
It is a trust thing. And that's. David. So what
we do is we look after people that have survived
trauma and institutions. And generally speaking, it takes a long
time for a person to come forward to share that trauma.
And when they do come forward, that's a big effort.
You know, that's a big step for them to take.
And you're right. It it involves developing trust there. Um,
(34:07):
and uh, I suppose what it makes is from my perspective, um.
It is very, uh. It makes it very easy to
do your job when you're looking after such incredible people
that are strong, courageous. Um.
S1 (34:26):
Are they looking for somebody to speak to, or are
they looking for for redress, as you've mentioned? Are they
looking to punish? No. What are they? What do they
look what are they looking for?
S3 (34:36):
So one of the things a lot of people say
that when people that have survived abuse come forward, it's
all about money. Well, that's not what it is in
my experience. Invariably, when a survivor comes forward that has
survived abuse in an institution, they're looking for four A's.
And the four A's are the first acknowledgement, an acknowledgement
of what happened. Uh, secondly, an apology. Thirdly, an assurance
(35:00):
by them coming forward and sharing their trauma that it's
going to make a difference for others and then finally, assistance.
So you'll appreciate that when we talk about those young
athletes that came forward, uh, you know, children and some
of them were talking six, seven, eight years of age
when it started that they've got debilitating injuries as a
result of what they experienced. Um, they're receiving no support
(35:21):
at the moment. There's no support out there for them.
So it's pretty important to make sure that there is
going to be some assistance that's provided to them. Um,
and the government has done that recently with establishing the
the redress scheme that's available for people that went through, um,
through the Australian Institute of Sport. Um, so that's, that's important.
(35:43):
That was a that was a very positive step that
was taken by the Australian government. But I'd like to
see that rolled out to a far wider group.
S1 (35:52):
Given your experience is the tip of the iceberg, or
do you expect a lot more to be on its way?
S3 (36:00):
Uh, I think that we're talking about these issues. I
think that that more people feel comfortable coming forward now
and sharing their, uh, understanding or their experiences of what happened. Um,
I think that we, uh, that that that episode that
happened with gymnastics, what made that unique was that there
(36:21):
was a large cohort of these women that had solidarity
with each other. Each one of them had each other's back.
That's what made it so incredible. They all came forward.
It wasn't just one out. It was a group of, um, uh,
of former, uh, gymnasts that came forward that said, hey,
this is what happened. It wasn't good enough. There has
(36:42):
to be change. So it was that solidarity. I think
that that's quite unique. Um, we've seen other sports where it's, um, uh,
for instance, in relation to swimming, it seems that with swimming,
they've done a recent investigation there, and I think that
to their credit, they came out and they have acknowledged
(37:03):
that they have had issues in the past. Um, but
what we saw with swimming was it wasn't that group of,
of athletes coming forward banding together to tell their stories.
S1 (37:16):
The National Integrity Framework, do you see that as an
important piece of work going forward, in that at least
sports now have an understanding of framework and guidelines about
their responsibilities? Oh, very.
S3 (37:30):
Much so, very much so. And that, again is a
very positive step to take. And that has been largely
led by David. He obviously has got an incredible support
team behind him. But David Sharp has led that. Um,
and I think that it's incredibly important for sports. Um,
it gives sports a lot of comfort, I suppose, from
a point of view that they know that there's an
(37:51):
independent body that's going to be reviewing it, that the
complaints can go to, that it's going to be an
independent investigation that's then going to be held. So that's
really that that is very important. Um, and if we
use other examples of how that has had success in
other areas, um, I know for instance, with the Australian
Defence Force, when they had allegations with respect to abuse
(38:13):
and integrity and those sorts of things, that they set
up an independent body that people could then make their
complaints to. So I actually think that that is a
really positive thing because, um, you know, from the sports body,
you know, from the sporting organisation, it's got some comfort
then knowing, well, there's going to be an independent body
that's going to be reviewing us, you know, that's going
(38:34):
to be holding us to account that that's what important.
S1 (38:38):
Not everybody who feels as though they have been abused
is going to get comfort from it, though. Let's be frank.
And they might feel as though not enough action is taken.
And so not everybody is going to be satisfied.
S3 (38:50):
And that's that's going to be, um, the case no
matter what. We are not going to be a, um.
S6 (38:58):
Uh.
S3 (38:59):
There is going to be, um. A significant number of
people that won't be happy with that process, but it's
the best we've got, and it's a far lot better
than what we've had in the past. So that to
me is a really good step in the right direction.
S1 (39:18):
Yes. What do you see as the future? You know,
are we going to see less abuse cases? Are we
going to see more and more people come out and
talk about historical abuse? Where do you see the the
future going?
S3 (39:30):
Well, first of all, I would like to think that that, um,
that well, first of all, I think the statistics will
show that more people will come forward and report in
relation to historical incidences. The reason for that is they're
going to have the courage to come forward listening to
other people and they'll say, okay, they now feel comfortable
coming forward and sharing their trauma to make a difference,
(39:54):
but that that means that the system is working. That
means that people feel comfortable, um, and that they and
safe in coming forward in reporting and knowing that it's
going to be handled correctly. So that's a good thing. Okay.
So I would expect that there should be a, a spike. Um,
but gradually that will then Taylor off. Um, if you
(40:18):
have a look, for instance, I know that, um, what
happened over in the States with the, um, uh, uh,
in relation to the US armed forces, uh, they had
they introduced a new body in relation to dealing with, uh,
claims in relation to abuse and inappropriate behavior. And they
(40:41):
introduced it. And then the statistics showed that the incidence
had been reported, had trebled. And they said, listen, it
mustn't be working, you know, because look, it's it's just risen.
It hasn't become, um, better, it's got worse. And their
response there was no, it's actually got better because from
(41:02):
the point of view that people now feel comfortable coming
along and reporting. So I would like to think that
there will be I don't think anybody should be surprised
if we do see a spike in, um, in people
reporting abuse that has occurred, historical abuse that has occurred. Um,
and what that will show is that people feel comfortable
(41:24):
coming forward and sharing their trauma.
S1 (41:26):
How should historical abuse be dealt with then? Um, we've
had obviously the Human Rights Commission have a look at
a number of issues, but I just wonder how can
historical issues be dealt with from a sporting perspective, from
a sport?
S3 (41:41):
Well, obviously there's a national redress scheme, which is if.
S1 (41:45):
It's not sexual abuse, yes. How can it be dealt with, uh.
S3 (41:50):
Which part of you're looking at.
S7 (41:51):
Okay, so, so from a.
S1 (41:53):
Coach's sort of forcing athletes to train and they're suffering
lifelong injuries or they've got eating disorders, etc.. So how
do you how do you rectify historical abuse?
S6 (42:05):
Well, it depends.
S3 (42:06):
What the athlete, what the claimant is, is seeking. So
a lot of claimants may well be seeking that they're
after an acknowledgement, an apology for what has occurred in
the past and assurance that systems have then changed. Um,
now that's maybe what they're seeking. And what will happen
is if they were a minor at that point in time,
they've still obviously got their, uh, all their rights to
(42:27):
then pursue, um, their entitlements. Um, now, what you're saying
there is what happens if it's not sexual abuse in
some of the states? Obviously, the legislation says that in
relation to physical abuse that they may have suffered. Okay.
Is still, um, is still able to be pursued against
the organization.
S1 (42:46):
From a police perspective or.
S3 (42:48):
No, no, not from a police perspective, from a from
a civil perspective. Obviously, people have still got their their
rights in relation to their criminal claims that they may
and they'll always have those, um, but, uh, you know,
there is still um, I would like to think that
people that have, uh, survived abuse, physical abuse within, uh, um,
(43:14):
sporting organisations, um, have got significant options open for them
to pursue rights. Now.
S1 (43:23):
Where did athletes come to before you came on the
scene or before people like you came on the scene?
Did they just keep quiet?
S3 (43:30):
Oh, they kept quiet. Yeah, they kept quiet. Um.
S8 (43:35):
Uh, there is, uh.
S6 (43:38):
Tim, you're.
S3 (43:38):
Aware that over the last 3 or 4 years, there's
been some very high profile matters that have come forward
or that are being going through the courts in relation
to allegations of serious abuse that has occurred. Um, and
though they have resulted in criminal charges.
S6 (43:56):
Um, and I.
S3 (43:58):
Suspect the reason why people are coming forward now is that, um,
they feel confident that they will be listened to. And
so isn't that good? You know, because in the past
that these people have just suffered in silence.
S1 (44:12):
Have you been surprised by the size of the issue
when you first got that call from, say, a gymnast
or a swimmer?
S3 (44:18):
No, I suppose it doesn't surprise me, because after being
in this field for so long, you know that.
S6 (44:25):
That um.
S3 (44:27):
Where these children. Unfortunately, there has been abuse.
S1 (44:32):
Yes, but it seems as though it's everywhere at the moment,
doesn't it? Pick up the paper and there seems to
be an abuse case, almost on a daily basis before
the courts, where previously that hadn't been as much, and
it was almost like a hidden problem, I guess. And
I just wonder, did you think, oh, possibly they're not
(44:52):
going to come out and speak about it?
S3 (44:54):
I suppose for the last 25 years, I've been working
in the space of assisting people that have survived abuse.
So after 25 years, you probably develop an approach where
you think, okay, well, there is going to be some
bad people out there and that they will have done
bad things. Um, and, uh, you know, to me, I
come back to the fact that if we can be
(45:17):
assisting and caring for people now and to be assisting
them to to get through the trauma and that they
feel as if they've been heard and they're getting an
assurance that by them sharing their trauma, that's going to
make a difference for others. Well, isn't that an incredible thing?
You know, that these people can come forward and something
that that they walk away thinking, well, as a result
(45:38):
of my sharing my trauma, I have made a difference
for others.
S1 (45:42):
Well, it's good that they feel as though they've got
somewhere to go to now. Yeah. Whether it be you
or Sport Integrity Australia or whoever, they know they're going
to be listened to.
S7 (45:50):
Yeah.
S3 (45:50):
And that's, that's very positive idea.
S1 (45:53):
Keep up the good work.
S3 (45:54):
Oh thank you so much Tim. Thank you. Hey, thanks
for showing interest, Tim.
S4 (46:00):
And now for our segment from Left Field where we
answer a question from the public.
S9 (46:08):
G'day I'm Riley, athlete educator with Sport Integrity Australia. Today's
from left field. Question is who's responsible for keeping kids
safe in sport? It's everyone's responsibility to keep kids safe.
As a person involved in sport, you play a crucial
role in keeping our kids safe. If you've experienced or
witnessed poor behaviour in sport, you can make a complaint
(46:30):
to Sport Integrity Australia via our website.
S4 (46:40):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport integrity.gov Edu. For more information on Sport
Integrity Australia, please visit our website at Sport Integrity gov.au
(47:02):
or check out our Clean Sport app.
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