July 5, 2023 • 31 mins
The latest episode of our podcast On Side explores the evolution of Paralympic sport in Australia. It also discusses the need to include Paralympic voices in the decision making, along with the role Paralympic sport can play as a vehicle for greater social inclusion and to understanding disability.
It features Paralympians:
Ella Sabljak, an Australian wheelchair basketball and rugby player, and a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Athlete Council and Sport Integrity Australia’s Athlete Advisory Group, and
Richard Nicholson, a two-time Paralympic silver medallist and part of Sport Integrity Australia’s Sports Partnerships team.
What began as a simple “rallying of the troops” as a team captain has led to multiple roles as an advocate for athletes for Ella, including as a member of Paralympics Australia’s Athlete Commission.
“I’ve always fought for the underdog and love helping athletes have their own voice,” she says. “You don’t really realise that athletes’ voices aren’t heard. It’s not until you’re sitting back at home after the fact and you really wish you could have made an impact or you’re seeing things differently, so I think that reflection piece as an athlete moving forward has really shaped how I carry myself and how I approach situations now.”
Her appointment on the WADA Athlete Council is testament to her efforts in standing up for athletes, however she urges us all to be a “champion of change, so no one is left behind”.
She also discusses the Paralympic classification system, doping in Paralympic sport, discrimination and the need for education.
Richard, a two-time Paralympic medallist across two sports, discusses the evolution of Paralympics and disability sport in Australia.
When he first began competing in disability sports he says he “didn’t know where” he fitted in among a “confusing” number of competing agencies.
He says his first Paralympics experience in Atlanta was disappointing, in terms of the experience and his results.
“Like all athletes, I was excited to get inside the village and when we arrived there was a swarm of tradies tearing down various events and various things inside the village and dismantling it and I thought ‘what’s going on here, we haven’t even started yet?’ The Paralympics in 1996 were literally saved by a philanthropic donation … or those Games would have been cancelled all together.”
However, there was one incident at the Sydney Paralympic Games that changed his feelings about sport and his role within it. While he on his way to watch an event he came across a young boy with his mum, who asked her: “I wonder what sport that man plays?”
The Games was a “watershed moment” for disability sport in Australia, he adds.
“That’s when I started looking at the bigger picture and how I could be involved in changing that for the better.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:08):
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S2 (00:23):
Hello and welcome to onside I'm Tim Gavel. This week's
program explores the evolution of Paralympic sport in Australia. We
also discuss the need to include Paralympic voices in the
decision making process, along with the role Paralympic sport can
play as a vehicle for greater social inclusion and to
understand disability. Today's guests include Paralympians Ella Sabljak and Richard Nicholson.
(00:49):
Ella is a member of the world Anti-Doping agency, Athlete
Council and Sport Integrity Australia's athlete advisory group, while Richard
Nicholson is a two time Paralympic silver medallist and part
of Sport Integrity Australia's sports partnership team. But first, whether
you're an NRL, AFL, netball, cricket or A-League fan, all
eyes will be on the Matildas ahead of the FIFA
(01:10):
Women's World Cup later this month as 32 teams from
around the world compete for football's holy grail. While off
the field, racism and abuse in sport have dominated the
headlines as players, coaches and codes call out abuse, particularly online.
In January, Sport Integrity Australia launched a Safe Sport hotline,
(01:31):
which includes an anonymous reporting capability that covers wider racial
and cultural issues in sport. For people who feel as
though they've been discriminated against in their sport. You can
call the hotline on 1800 161 361. Our first guest, Ella Sabljak,
has more than 15 years experience at an international level.
(01:52):
Ella captained Australia's Under 25 women's wheelchair basketball team, the Devils,
to a World championship silver medal and is also a
Commonwealth Games silver medallist. She's currently the education manager at
Paralympics Australia and a member of the Australian Steelers team,
competing at the Asia Oceania Wheelchair Rugby Championships in Tokyo. Ella,
(02:13):
welcome to onside. You're a champion athlete, but you've also
become a leading advocate for athletes rights. What led you
down this path?
S3 (02:22):
Um, I've always, you know, fought for the underdog and love, um,
helping athletes have their own voice. And so when I
started my journey in this, it only started as a
captain of a team and, you know, rallying the troops together,
hearing what they have to say and relaying that message
back to coaches. And then from there it progressed. We, um,
(02:45):
I was nominated for our International Wheelchair Basketball Federation Athlete Commission,
and so there was four of us from each zone
who were nominated. And we were put together a little
bit of a steering committee to help develop an athlete
committee or commission in wheelchair basketball. So we did all
the hard work. We wrote all like the terms of reference,
(03:06):
the statutes, and really paved the way and thought we
got a little bit of a push back from the organisation,
but once they saw that, how much the athletes added
value and their voice, they started respecting us and coming
to us and asking for more. So that was kind
of the start of where we are at. And then, um,
(03:28):
I was nominated by the Iwbf to sit on the
WADA Athlete Committee. And yeah, it's just been a journey.
S2 (03:38):
When you were playing, of course, you played with the
the gliders at the 2020, um, Paralympics. I just wondered,
did you have some issues there as you were an athlete,
realising that athletes weren't having a say and didn't have
too many rights?
S3 (03:54):
You know, it was it's not until you're reflecting upon it,
when you're in the thick of it, you don't really
realise that athletes voices aren't heard until you know you're
sitting back home after the fact and you really wish
you could have made an impact, or you're seeing things differently.
So I think that reflection piece as an athlete moving
(04:18):
forward is really like shaped how I, how I carry
myself and how I approach situations now. So I, you know,
the power of the pause, you think about it. And, um,
we're trying to establish an athlete committee in Australia or
in Australia and also in our zone. So the Asia
(04:38):
Oceania zone, um, and just trying to make the most
impact we can where we can.
S2 (04:43):
So in terms of specifics, what sort of things are
we looking at here in terms of things that you
reflect on now that you think, well, it could have
been done better?
S3 (04:55):
Yeah. So the classification system in wheelchair basketball, we had
a little bit of an issue with, um, the classification, uh,
the IPC. Essay, review the classification system, and then they
filtered down the results to the Iwbf. And then we
had we had to do a whole review of our
(05:17):
classification system. And during Covid, a number of our players
got classed out so they were deemed ineligible to participate
in the Paralympic Games. Now, it wasn't only basketball, it
was multiple sports tennis, swimming, athletics. Um, and just the
way that the system was handled and athletes weren't told
(05:39):
until it was the last moment. So we didn't have
time to prepare. We had it was a bit it
was such a shock to the system and it was super,
super scary to people's careers were being ended because of
this decision. Not saying that it was.
S2 (05:55):
There was no consultation really.
S3 (05:56):
No, there was absolutely no consultation. So the athletes were
taken off guard. Um, you know, careers were ended. And
so when former plating our athlete commission, we really push
to have athlete voices on every different department and committee
within our organization just so that we can be across
(06:18):
it and then relay the messages back to the athletes
to prevent something like this happening again. Now the IPC
classification review was inevitable. And it is it is what
it is. And I'm we're not disputing that, but just
the way that the situation was handled to make it
a little bit more seamless for the athletes to hear
those decisions. So we're really pushing just to get athletes
(06:41):
sitting in and discussing the meetings, um, to have that voice.
S2 (06:47):
Do you feel as though your advocacy has reached its
zenith to a certain degree, with election to the WADA
20 person committee? I hope so. As an athlete representative,
you feel as though, okay, we've got a real chance now.
S3 (06:59):
Yeah, yeah, I really hope so. So I, um. Yeah,
I'm super stoked. I wasn't expecting to be nominated on
the WADA Athlete Council, but you know, all my hard
work and our hard work in establishing this committee and
fighting for the rights of athletes, you know, pays off
(07:20):
and my peers can see that.
S2 (07:22):
Did you ever envisage when you were playing that you'd become.
A leading spokesperson for Paralympic rights. Did you think that
this is where I'm going to end up?
S3 (07:33):
No, no, um, not at all. I, I think sometimes
I think I speak without thinking things through like earlier
on in my career. So I'd be really vocal if
I didn't like how something was handled or a situation.
And it was always around, you know, coach, athlete and communication.
(07:53):
So in those situations, I've had to stop and pause
and like, how can I make impact here? And so
I really changed the way that I led in those
communication spaces to give the athlete like to empower the
athletes to say what they're thinking without repercussions or, you know,
that psychological safety. Um, yeah. But no, I never envisioned
(08:18):
that I would be here.
S2 (08:19):
Because if you have a look at a shopping list
of some of the things that you're doing. Okay. So
education manager with Paralympics Australia, uh, you're involved with the
International Wheelchair Basketball Federation, Athletes Council, WADA. And you also
have a role at Sport Integrity Australia as well, don't you. Yeah.
Tell us about that role.
S3 (08:36):
So it's quite a um, new position for me. So
being elected onto the WADA Athlete Council gives us a
me a spot here in the Sporting Integrity Athlete Advisory Committee.
And it's all about learning. So bringing everything that I've
learned from WADA and at like the highest level and
(08:59):
how we can best impact that here in Australia and
spread the message not only for para athletes, but for
all athletes in Australia to make sure that we're across
everything and yeah, no one gets left behind.
S2 (09:11):
Is anti-doping a major issue amongst Paralympians?
S3 (09:16):
I wouldn't say so, I think. I personally haven't had
a bad experience or know of people who've had, you know,
multiple drug tests or tested positive or whatever else. So I,
I don't think it's a major issue within Paralympics. I mean,
(09:37):
I hope not, but in saying that we need to
ensure that athletes consistently, no matter if you're able bodied
or para, are getting tested the same amount. Um, there
is a bit of a discrepancy with, you know, para
athletes being tested. And I think, you know, I could
speculate that it would come down to funding and, and whatnot,
but we need to ensure that sport is clean no
(10:00):
matter what it is.
S2 (10:02):
Classification the bigger issue. Yes. Yeah. I mean manipulation of classification.
S3 (10:09):
Manipulation of classification. I think the integrity there is. We're
getting on top of it. So we have like lots
of educational pieces around misrepresenting yourself. And our classification team
at Paralympics Australia worked with Sport Integrity to develop classification
101 and what to expect when you're getting classified. So
(10:30):
we can try and, you know, mitigate those risks early
on and spread awareness and education around. This is what's
going to happen in classification. This is what's going to
happen if you misrepresent yourself. And yeah, try put as
much information with the athlete and empower them to make
the right decisions and choices. So I wouldn't I haven't
(10:53):
personally seen many people manipulating classification. I've seen the systems
change and other countries and other athletes. You'll look at
someone and be like, whoa, what's going on there? You
don't really match up to your, you know, your points, but.
It's the system.
S2 (11:11):
Do you feel as though sometimes the Paralympic movement is
is lost in the whole thing? Because I'm talking here
about awareness of sport and education, because the focus is
very much on the Olympics. Everybody talks about 2032 Olympics.
Paralympics just seems to get lost sometime. Um, do you
feel as though part of your role is going to
(11:32):
be to lift awareness of everything to do with Paralympics?
S3 (11:37):
Yeah, absolutely. So as part of my school program that
I run with Paralympics Australia, I go out to schools
and I educate the kids around the Paralympic movement. I
take Paralympians out with us and they share their stories.
So we leave the kids with a message to be
champions of change. And I'll always ask, you know, what's
happening in Brisbane in 2032, when a kid will put
(11:59):
their hand up and say, The Olympics. So glad you
said that, because there are also the Paralympics that are happening,
you know, and I put it back onto the kids.
It's their challenge now. So to say, whenever the conversation
around the games is happening, we say Olympics and Paralympics
because we work just as hard. We get paid not
(12:21):
nearly as much, and it's still high performance sport. So
we're really trying to push that message out to continually
using the word Paralympics in those conversations. And when we're
referring to it like the games, hopefully people will then
know it's Olympics and Paralympics.
S2 (12:39):
Because it can be a driver for social change as
well in the wider community, acceptance of people with a
disability and, you know, the way that they overcome that disability.
And it's not just about sport, is it? It's reflective
of the of the wider community.
S3 (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we're educating kids young
and we're getting them when they're we can easily I
wouldn't want to say manipulate their minds, but we can
try and push the positive agenda in that people with
a disability where it doesn't, you're putting the barriers on us.
(13:19):
It's not the other way around. And when you're, you know,
the future CEO or future construction manager or whatever it
is that they're going to be the future of, they
have to have a whole like a human centered design
and be super inclusive in whatever they're doing. So no
one gets left behind because it's not only people with disability,
(13:40):
it's it's everybody discrimination.
S2 (13:43):
I guess, um, is a key topic. Harassment, racial abuse, etc.
discrimination is right up there, though, isn't it? In terms
of issues that do affect people with a disability?
S3 (13:54):
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we're trying to educate everybody
so that it's not an it's not going to be
an issue, but we only know what we know. And
it it has to be on us as humans to
try and educate ourselves and get out there and meet
as many people and be, you know, gender diverse, expose
(14:15):
yourself to as many different, you know, religions, races, people
as possible so we can understand and have that empathy
so that we can make the world a better place.
S2 (14:25):
There are specifics, aren't there? Because obviously you're involved with
the International Wheelchair Basketball Federation. And I wonder, you know, sometimes,
I guess we look at sport through the prism of
able bodied athletes. And your role is to inject the
issues associated with wheelchair basketball, for instance, or people with, um,
(14:47):
a disability in terms of wheelchairs. But your role is
to inject your perspective into it. Is that how you
see it?
S3 (14:55):
Yeah, I like to look at my role as a
super inclusive. So I think being nominated for the WADA
Athlete Committee, I'm not only representing para athletes, I'm representing
all athletes in Australia, um, on our WADA committee. So
for me, I've had to really understand what the issues
(15:17):
are for everybody and try and see how we can
influence that at that board level. So it's it's not
an easy task. And um. I do have those unconscious
biases of power always embedded, because that's my experience. And
(15:38):
whatever I can do to help change or shift mindsets
of people for the better to include everybody. I'm hoping
we're getting the message.
S2 (15:48):
Because Sport Integrity Australia, I guess, is seen as very
much a thorough organisation. Um, sometimes the standards set here
and applied elsewhere. Do you put that perspective as well
into your conversations saying, listen, we are reasonably well educated
as far as, um, our programs are concerned or, you know, well-educated. Uh,
(16:11):
they're quite strict in terms of testing and whatnot. Are
you able to put that balance into into conversations that
a lot is being done in Australia, even though we're
a long way away from everybody else?
S3 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, I am. And it's also really interesting hearing
what other countries are doing and then how we can learn,
you know, learn from what they're doing because, um, you know,
over in, in Paris, not saying that this is a
good example, but in France, they're Nadeau has almost the
same amount of power as law enforcement. And that's that
(16:46):
to me was shocking. But it's not too dissimilar to
here in Australia. Like we work alongside law enforcement and
the rules are really clear. And if you don't understand
the rules, then that's I think, a we've done them
a disservice because we haven't provided them with it with enough. Yeah,
enough tools. So it's just. For me, it's a big
(17:10):
learning piece and what I can take here in Australia
and promote that. I'll try my very hardest. Yes.
S2 (17:19):
Were you aware of Sport Integrity Australia prior to to
joining the organisation in this role? Were you aware of
everything that they did?
S3 (17:28):
Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't until I was looking at
it from like a wider lens that I could see
all the work that was happening behind the scenes, like
it was like the puzzle pieces were being put together. Um,
just around like the education piece that we've done here
as a board. Integrity Australia around supplements. And then I,
(17:50):
I could see the shift. I'm like, oh yeah, that
makes so much sense. Um, so yeah, we've had a
lot to do with Sport Integrity Australia across the years.
We've always had those educational pieces, um, talks, drug tests. Um,
so yeah, it's not a, it's not a new, new
thing for us.
S2 (18:09):
Listen, you go out and educate others, don't you? In
your role with Paralympics Australia? Ideal, uh, position really for
former primary school teacher out there teaching again, aren't you? Yeah.
S3 (18:19):
Combining sport and Paralympics and teaching all together. It's a
dream job.
S2 (18:25):
And the elite athlete. Yep. To boot. Thanks very much
for joining us Ella. And congratulations on the role as
you've achieved.
S3 (18:31):
Thank you so much.
S2 (18:33):
Our next guest is Richard Nicholson, a Paralympic silver medallist
across two sports powerlifting and on the track in the
four by 100 relay. Richard's sporting journey began in 1982
at the age of 12, in archery. Less than a
year later, he began training and competing in mainstream gymnastics
alongside able bodied competitors. His first disability sport, powerlifting, led
(18:55):
to his first Paralympic Games in Atlanta in 1996, at
the age of 26. Richard, thanks very much for joining
on side. Oh, a pleasure to be here, Tim. You've
had an incredible journey and you're able to use that
experience now, aren't you in your current role at Sport
Integrity Australia in the partnerships team?
S4 (19:11):
Yeah, I've managed to sort of combine both my athletic
career or sporting career and a professional career in sports
administration across a number of roles in from the Australian
Sports Commission, AIS and now in Sport Integrity.
S2 (19:24):
What do you remember most about your sporting career apart
from the success on the track? But I guess the journey,
the battle, um, to get recognition in the first place?
S4 (19:35):
Um, yeah. Well, along the way I saw the evolution
of the Paralympics and disability sport in Australia go from
being essentially a volunteer based, um run, um, sporting events
to where the Paralympics are today. And, you know, one
of the major sporting, um, events that happens worldwide and,
(19:56):
you know, attracting global, um, viewers and, and interest and
corporate sponsorship. So it's it's been a great journey to
be part of that.
S2 (20:03):
Can I take you back to those early days just
to look about the experience that you had? Um, can
you tell us some of the struggles that you had
early on as a Paralympian?
S4 (20:14):
Well, I guess when I first entered into, um, disability
sport in Australia, there were so many small organisations running it,
I didn't really know where I fitted in. There was
all these, um, what we call national sporting organisations for disabilities,
and there was one for amputees and one for short
statured people and one for people with intellectual impairments. And
one there was just a plethora of them, you know,
(20:36):
one for wheelchair users. And there was athletes competing across
all these sort of competitions. And it was really quite
a confusing space. And, um, you know, but slowly over time, um,
you know, there's mainstreaming came in post the Sydney Paralympics
and things, you know, the, our national sporting organisations started
taking responsibility for, you know, the inclusion of people with disabilities.
(20:59):
And that was, uh, quite a exciting journey to be
part of too.
S2 (21:03):
I remember in Atlanta 1996 and, uh, as soon as
the Olympics finished, uh, all of the infrastructure suddenly went down.
Yet the Paralympics were going to start two weeks later. Uh,
that must have been disheartening.
S4 (21:16):
Yeah, I was that was my first Paralympic Games. And
I was really, like all athletes excited to get into
the village. And when we arrived, there were literally, you know,
a swarm of. You know, I tried. He's tearing down
various events and various things within inside the, um, village
and dismantling it. And I thought, well, what's going on here?
We haven't even started yet. And, um, you know, the
(21:39):
Paralympics in 1996 were literally saved by a large philanthropic
donation by the Shepherd Center in Atlanta. Um, or those
games would have been cancelled altogether.
S2 (21:49):
Was that the spark that you ended up becoming an
advocate for people with a disability and their rights? And, um,
the expectations is that when you thought, well, gee, something's
got to be done here.
S4 (22:02):
Um, to be honest, I think my motivation, um, was
a little bit more intrinsic in terms of, um, I
didn't compete well at Atlanta, and I knew I could
have done better. So I think my main motivation, um,
following Atlanta was just to become a better athlete. Um,
and I felt a lot of those other things were
out of my control. Um, and I didn't really start
(22:22):
my career in sports administration until just before Sydney Paralympics.
So that's when I started to think about a bigger
picture and how I could be involved in, in, um,
changing that for the better.
S2 (22:33):
So that was four years later that you thought, I'm
going to make a difference here. Yeah. Did you receive
much support from your fellow athletes when you started voicing
concerns about things should be better?
S4 (22:46):
I guess. I was working at the Australian Sports Commission
at the time and being an athlete. Yeah, I heard
a lot of athlete voices and I could sort of
I had a voice within that organisation to think about
and talk about things that weren't quite right. And the
inequity that was, you know, glaringly apparent at that time between,
I guess, able bodied sport and sport for people with disabilities.
(23:09):
Do you think.
S2 (23:10):
We've reached a point that is a level playing field yet, though?
S4 (23:14):
Um, I. It's certainly changed a lot for the better. Um.
I think there's certainly always more work can be done
in this space, you know? Um. Yeah. We get we're
much closer.
S2 (23:29):
Because you didn't have a lot of funding, did you?
In the lead up, for instance, to 1996 and and
even for the next four years, it was a home
games in Sydney. So you had a bit more funding. Yeah.
S4 (23:40):
There was a little bit more funding come in um,
to disability sport because it was a home games. And
obviously Australia wants to do well at their home games
and we topped the medal tally. So that was you know,
it was an outstanding performance by all our athletes, the
administrators and coaches and everyone involved. You know, um, putting
that event on and being part of that team, it
was outstanding. Um, but it was really post, um, 2000
(24:02):
and the goodwill that the Paralympics brought throughout the Australian
community that I thought that really spurred on, um, you know,
the acceptance and, and people wanting to be involved in
disability sport, I thought post the games was the real
watershed moment for disability sport in Australia because it's.
S2 (24:21):
Broader than sport, isn't it? What sport can bring to
the table in terms of showcasing Paralympians and people with
the disability in the incredible things that they can do?
That translates to the general community, not just sport, doesn't it?
S4 (24:36):
Yeah. Well, um, there was one incident at the Sydney
Paralympic Games that, you know, really did change my feeling
about sport and my role within it. And that was
one day I was walking between a couple of the
venues at, um, Sydney Olympic Park, and there was a, um,
a young boy with his mother and he said, oh, mum,
I wonder what that that man does, you know.
S2 (24:59):
Yeah.
S4 (24:59):
What what what what sport does that man play? You know, and, um,
it really made me stop and think because, you know,
for the previous 20 years, I'd heard children sort of say, oh,
why does that man use crutches? Or why is that man,
you know, in a wheelchair or what's wrong with that man?
You know, and there's simple, fair enough questions from a young,
you know, curious mind. Um, but this time he was
(25:21):
talking about, I wonder what sport that man plays. And
I realized that the power of sport has to change their, um,
perceptions of disability within the community. And, you know, I
was very fast learning what sport was doing for me
in my life and changing, I guess, perceptions I had
of myself, you know? So it was a really powerful moment.
S2 (25:42):
The language has changed as well. Which brings me to
my next point about. Talking about perceptions, but also the
way that we describe Paralympians. It's no longer people with
disabilities competing in sport, it's Paralympians to see what incredible
feats they can achieve.
S4 (26:01):
Yeah, the language has changed and that's actually quite important.
I think. You know, the society's beliefs and cultures and
values are based around the language that we do use.
So um, the change in language can go a long way. And,
you know, leading into the, um, London Paralympic Games, for instance,
Sebastian Coe, you know, he was the head honcho, he
was running the show. And he always anytime he mentioned
(26:24):
the Olympic Games, he always mentioned the Paralympic Games in
the same sentence. And he promoted there's a six week
sporting festival, you know, um, as one event with, with
two games and the language that he used and the
way that the London Paralympics in particular was promoted was fantastic.
S2 (26:42):
So how do you see Paralympic sport and the role
of Paralympians continuing to influence you, being a former athlete
now in your role at Sport Integrity Australia with the
partnerships team, what influence do you see that can be
made through your eyes and your role here?
S4 (27:02):
Well, I just if you just look at sort of recently,
you know, the current batch of Paralympians, they their articles
are now um, they've got articles not only just sort
of on the back pages of sport, which was a
feat in itself at some stage. You know, I remember
Louise Savage winning a Boston Marathon and barely getting two
lines in, you know, in the news in brief. Um,
(27:22):
and nowadays you've, you know, you've got athletes like Madison
de Rozario and she's appearing in all sorts of different
magazines across different media, um, spaces. And there's just a
lot more, um, promotion and a lot more acceptance. People
want to know about the stories behind the athletes and
things like that. So yeah, it's changed significantly.
S2 (27:43):
It's the back stories have become increasingly important, haven't they?
S4 (27:46):
Yeah, definitely. And certainly every everyone has a back story,
but a lot of the Paralympic ones are quite intriguing.
You know they're all a little bit different of course.
You know. And you've got someone like Curtis McGrath who he, um,
you know, lost both his legs in a, in a, um,
explosion in Afghanistan. And, you know, he's now one of
the world's top paddlers. And he's got a fantastic back story.
(28:08):
And there's all every Paralympian has a fantastic back story.
S2 (28:12):
Do you see yourself playing an important role going forward
in in Paralympic sport, even though you're not not a
competitor anymore? But do you sort of see yourself as
being an important voice out there?
S4 (28:23):
Um, probably not in the mainstream, but certainly, you know,
I'm conscious of my lived experience within, um, Sport Integrity Australia.
And I would like to think that I would be
able to bring something to the table within the organisation,
across the organisation that, um, may have some, you know,
impact across Paralympic sport, if just not making sure that
(28:45):
everyone in, in our organisation is aware of disability sport and,
and how it operates and how we can support it.
S2 (28:53):
Yes, because that lived experience that you've had becomes incredibly relatable,
doesn't it, to athletes, administrators when they know that you've
been there, done that? Yeah.
S4 (29:03):
Well, I guess lived experience. I mean, if if you
haven't had that lived experience, it just becomes a case study.
But if you've had that lived experience, I think it
adds a lot more weight to, you know, anything that
you might be saying or wanting to achieve or influence.
S2 (29:17):
In general life, you know, is it easy to get
around for yourself in a wheelchair? Are there things that
still need to be done infrastructure wise and acceptance wise?
Do you still feel as though there are important steps
to be made there?
S4 (29:31):
Australia as a whole is a pretty good, you know,
well developed country and we're pretty good in that space.
But there's yeah, there's the odd occasion where you get
where there's um, you know, there's, there's just steps that's
the only access into a building and things like that.
I think overall the access physical access in Australia is,
is pretty good. Um. You know, unfortunately, the biggest barrier to,
(29:54):
I guess, inclusion of people with disabilities is always that
attitudinal barrier. And, you know, in the last certainly in
the last 20 years, I think a lot of those
barriers have been sort of broken down. But there's still sometimes, um, problems,
you know, sometimes flying domestically in Australia on our airlines
can be quite challenging for people in wheelchairs and people
(30:16):
with disabilities. So that still occurs.
S2 (30:18):
But love laughs okay.
S4 (30:20):
Yeah.
S2 (30:21):
Life's okay. Good on you Richard. Thanks very much for
joining us. And onside and all the best and well
done on your role here at Sport Integrity Australia. Okay.
S4 (30:29):
Thanks very much, Tim.
S2 (30:33):
Thanks for listening to onside. I'm Tim Gavel. We'll have
another episode shortly.
S1 (30:41):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport integrity.org. For more information on Sport Integrity Australia,
please visit our website. Sport integrity gov.au or check out
(31:03):
our Clean Sport app.
Welcome to onside, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia.
Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and
the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport.
S2 (00:23):
Hello and welcome to onside I'm Tim Gavel. This week's
program explores the evolution of Paralympic sport in Australia. We
also discuss the need to include Paralympic voices in the
decision making process, along with the role Paralympic sport can
play as a vehicle for greater social inclusion and to
understand disability. Today's guests include Paralympians Ella Sabljak and Richard Nicholson.
(00:49):
Ella is a member of the world Anti-Doping agency, Athlete
Council and Sport Integrity Australia's athlete advisory group, while Richard
Nicholson is a two time Paralympic silver medallist and part
of Sport Integrity Australia's sports partnership team. But first, whether
you're an NRL, AFL, netball, cricket or A-League fan, all
eyes will be on the Matildas ahead of the FIFA
(01:10):
Women's World Cup later this month as 32 teams from
around the world compete for football's holy grail. While off
the field, racism and abuse in sport have dominated the
headlines as players, coaches and codes call out abuse, particularly online.
In January, Sport Integrity Australia launched a Safe Sport hotline,
(01:31):
which includes an anonymous reporting capability that covers wider racial
and cultural issues in sport. For people who feel as
though they've been discriminated against in their sport. You can
call the hotline on 1800 161 361. Our first guest, Ella Sabljak,
has more than 15 years experience at an international level.
(01:52):
Ella captained Australia's Under 25 women's wheelchair basketball team, the Devils,
to a World championship silver medal and is also a
Commonwealth Games silver medallist. She's currently the education manager at
Paralympics Australia and a member of the Australian Steelers team,
competing at the Asia Oceania Wheelchair Rugby Championships in Tokyo. Ella,
(02:13):
welcome to onside. You're a champion athlete, but you've also
become a leading advocate for athletes rights. What led you
down this path?
S3 (02:22):
Um, I've always, you know, fought for the underdog and love, um,
helping athletes have their own voice. And so when I
started my journey in this, it only started as a
captain of a team and, you know, rallying the troops together,
hearing what they have to say and relaying that message
back to coaches. And then from there it progressed. We, um,
(02:45):
I was nominated for our International Wheelchair Basketball Federation Athlete Commission,
and so there was four of us from each zone
who were nominated. And we were put together a little
bit of a steering committee to help develop an athlete
committee or commission in wheelchair basketball. So we did all
the hard work. We wrote all like the terms of reference,
(03:06):
the statutes, and really paved the way and thought we
got a little bit of a push back from the organisation,
but once they saw that, how much the athletes added
value and their voice, they started respecting us and coming
to us and asking for more. So that was kind
of the start of where we are at. And then, um,
(03:28):
I was nominated by the Iwbf to sit on the
WADA Athlete Committee. And yeah, it's just been a journey.
S2 (03:38):
When you were playing, of course, you played with the
the gliders at the 2020, um, Paralympics. I just wondered,
did you have some issues there as you were an athlete,
realising that athletes weren't having a say and didn't have
too many rights?
S3 (03:54):
You know, it was it's not until you're reflecting upon it,
when you're in the thick of it, you don't really
realise that athletes voices aren't heard until you know you're
sitting back home after the fact and you really wish
you could have made an impact, or you're seeing things differently.
So I think that reflection piece as an athlete moving
(04:18):
forward is really like shaped how I, how I carry
myself and how I approach situations now. So I, you know,
the power of the pause, you think about it. And, um,
we're trying to establish an athlete committee in Australia or
in Australia and also in our zone. So the Asia
(04:38):
Oceania zone, um, and just trying to make the most
impact we can where we can.
S2 (04:43):
So in terms of specifics, what sort of things are
we looking at here in terms of things that you
reflect on now that you think, well, it could have
been done better?
S3 (04:55):
Yeah. So the classification system in wheelchair basketball, we had
a little bit of an issue with, um, the classification, uh,
the IPC. Essay, review the classification system, and then they
filtered down the results to the Iwbf. And then we
had we had to do a whole review of our
(05:17):
classification system. And during Covid, a number of our players
got classed out so they were deemed ineligible to participate
in the Paralympic Games. Now, it wasn't only basketball, it
was multiple sports tennis, swimming, athletics. Um, and just the
way that the system was handled and athletes weren't told
(05:39):
until it was the last moment. So we didn't have
time to prepare. We had it was a bit it
was such a shock to the system and it was super,
super scary to people's careers were being ended because of
this decision. Not saying that it was.
S2 (05:55):
There was no consultation really.
S3 (05:56):
No, there was absolutely no consultation. So the athletes were
taken off guard. Um, you know, careers were ended. And
so when former plating our athlete commission, we really push
to have athlete voices on every different department and committee
within our organization just so that we can be across
(06:18):
it and then relay the messages back to the athletes
to prevent something like this happening again. Now the IPC
classification review was inevitable. And it is it is what
it is. And I'm we're not disputing that, but just
the way that the situation was handled to make it
a little bit more seamless for the athletes to hear
those decisions. So we're really pushing just to get athletes
(06:41):
sitting in and discussing the meetings, um, to have that voice.
S2 (06:47):
Do you feel as though your advocacy has reached its
zenith to a certain degree, with election to the WADA
20 person committee? I hope so. As an athlete representative,
you feel as though, okay, we've got a real chance now.
S3 (06:59):
Yeah, yeah, I really hope so. So I, um. Yeah,
I'm super stoked. I wasn't expecting to be nominated on
the WADA Athlete Council, but you know, all my hard
work and our hard work in establishing this committee and
fighting for the rights of athletes, you know, pays off
(07:20):
and my peers can see that.
S2 (07:22):
Did you ever envisage when you were playing that you'd become.
A leading spokesperson for Paralympic rights. Did you think that
this is where I'm going to end up?
S3 (07:33):
No, no, um, not at all. I, I think sometimes
I think I speak without thinking things through like earlier
on in my career. So I'd be really vocal if
I didn't like how something was handled or a situation.
And it was always around, you know, coach, athlete and communication.
(07:53):
So in those situations, I've had to stop and pause
and like, how can I make impact here? And so
I really changed the way that I led in those
communication spaces to give the athlete like to empower the
athletes to say what they're thinking without repercussions or, you know,
that psychological safety. Um, yeah. But no, I never envisioned
(08:18):
that I would be here.
S2 (08:19):
Because if you have a look at a shopping list
of some of the things that you're doing. Okay. So
education manager with Paralympics Australia, uh, you're involved with the
International Wheelchair Basketball Federation, Athletes Council, WADA. And you also
have a role at Sport Integrity Australia as well, don't you. Yeah.
Tell us about that role.
S3 (08:36):
So it's quite a um, new position for me. So
being elected onto the WADA Athlete Council gives us a
me a spot here in the Sporting Integrity Athlete Advisory Committee.
And it's all about learning. So bringing everything that I've
learned from WADA and at like the highest level and
(08:59):
how we can best impact that here in Australia and
spread the message not only for para athletes, but for
all athletes in Australia to make sure that we're across
everything and yeah, no one gets left behind.
S2 (09:11):
Is anti-doping a major issue amongst Paralympians?
S3 (09:16):
I wouldn't say so, I think. I personally haven't had
a bad experience or know of people who've had, you know,
multiple drug tests or tested positive or whatever else. So I,
I don't think it's a major issue within Paralympics. I mean,
(09:37):
I hope not, but in saying that we need to
ensure that athletes consistently, no matter if you're able bodied
or para, are getting tested the same amount. Um, there
is a bit of a discrepancy with, you know, para
athletes being tested. And I think, you know, I could
speculate that it would come down to funding and, and whatnot,
but we need to ensure that sport is clean no
(10:00):
matter what it is.
S2 (10:02):
Classification the bigger issue. Yes. Yeah. I mean manipulation of classification.
S3 (10:09):
Manipulation of classification. I think the integrity there is. We're
getting on top of it. So we have like lots
of educational pieces around misrepresenting yourself. And our classification team
at Paralympics Australia worked with Sport Integrity to develop classification
101 and what to expect when you're getting classified. So
(10:30):
we can try and, you know, mitigate those risks early
on and spread awareness and education around. This is what's
going to happen in classification. This is what's going to
happen if you misrepresent yourself. And yeah, try put as
much information with the athlete and empower them to make
the right decisions and choices. So I wouldn't I haven't
(10:53):
personally seen many people manipulating classification. I've seen the systems
change and other countries and other athletes. You'll look at
someone and be like, whoa, what's going on there? You
don't really match up to your, you know, your points, but.
It's the system.
S2 (11:11):
Do you feel as though sometimes the Paralympic movement is
is lost in the whole thing? Because I'm talking here
about awareness of sport and education, because the focus is
very much on the Olympics. Everybody talks about 2032 Olympics.
Paralympics just seems to get lost sometime. Um, do you
feel as though part of your role is going to
(11:32):
be to lift awareness of everything to do with Paralympics?
S3 (11:37):
Yeah, absolutely. So as part of my school program that
I run with Paralympics Australia, I go out to schools
and I educate the kids around the Paralympic movement. I
take Paralympians out with us and they share their stories.
So we leave the kids with a message to be
champions of change. And I'll always ask, you know, what's
happening in Brisbane in 2032, when a kid will put
(11:59):
their hand up and say, The Olympics. So glad you
said that, because there are also the Paralympics that are happening,
you know, and I put it back onto the kids.
It's their challenge now. So to say, whenever the conversation
around the games is happening, we say Olympics and Paralympics
because we work just as hard. We get paid not
(12:21):
nearly as much, and it's still high performance sport. So
we're really trying to push that message out to continually
using the word Paralympics in those conversations. And when we're
referring to it like the games, hopefully people will then
know it's Olympics and Paralympics.
S2 (12:39):
Because it can be a driver for social change as
well in the wider community, acceptance of people with a
disability and, you know, the way that they overcome that disability.
And it's not just about sport, is it? It's reflective
of the of the wider community.
S3 (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we're educating kids young
and we're getting them when they're we can easily I
wouldn't want to say manipulate their minds, but we can
try and push the positive agenda in that people with
a disability where it doesn't, you're putting the barriers on us.
(13:19):
It's not the other way around. And when you're, you know,
the future CEO or future construction manager or whatever it
is that they're going to be the future of, they
have to have a whole like a human centered design
and be super inclusive in whatever they're doing. So no
one gets left behind because it's not only people with disability,
(13:40):
it's it's everybody discrimination.
S2 (13:43):
I guess, um, is a key topic. Harassment, racial abuse, etc.
discrimination is right up there, though, isn't it? In terms
of issues that do affect people with a disability?
S3 (13:54):
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we're trying to educate everybody
so that it's not an it's not going to be
an issue, but we only know what we know. And
it it has to be on us as humans to
try and educate ourselves and get out there and meet
as many people and be, you know, gender diverse, expose
(14:15):
yourself to as many different, you know, religions, races, people
as possible so we can understand and have that empathy
so that we can make the world a better place.
S2 (14:25):
There are specifics, aren't there? Because obviously you're involved with
the International Wheelchair Basketball Federation. And I wonder, you know, sometimes,
I guess we look at sport through the prism of
able bodied athletes. And your role is to inject the
issues associated with wheelchair basketball, for instance, or people with, um,
(14:47):
a disability in terms of wheelchairs. But your role is
to inject your perspective into it. Is that how you
see it?
S3 (14:55):
Yeah, I like to look at my role as a
super inclusive. So I think being nominated for the WADA
Athlete Committee, I'm not only representing para athletes, I'm representing
all athletes in Australia, um, on our WADA committee. So
for me, I've had to really understand what the issues
(15:17):
are for everybody and try and see how we can
influence that at that board level. So it's it's not
an easy task. And um. I do have those unconscious
biases of power always embedded, because that's my experience. And
(15:38):
whatever I can do to help change or shift mindsets
of people for the better to include everybody. I'm hoping
we're getting the message.
S2 (15:48):
Because Sport Integrity Australia, I guess, is seen as very
much a thorough organisation. Um, sometimes the standards set here
and applied elsewhere. Do you put that perspective as well
into your conversations saying, listen, we are reasonably well educated
as far as, um, our programs are concerned or, you know, well-educated. Uh,
(16:11):
they're quite strict in terms of testing and whatnot. Are
you able to put that balance into into conversations that
a lot is being done in Australia, even though we're
a long way away from everybody else?
S3 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, I am. And it's also really interesting hearing
what other countries are doing and then how we can learn,
you know, learn from what they're doing because, um, you know,
over in, in Paris, not saying that this is a
good example, but in France, they're Nadeau has almost the
same amount of power as law enforcement. And that's that
(16:46):
to me was shocking. But it's not too dissimilar to
here in Australia. Like we work alongside law enforcement and
the rules are really clear. And if you don't understand
the rules, then that's I think, a we've done them
a disservice because we haven't provided them with it with enough. Yeah,
enough tools. So it's just. For me, it's a big
(17:10):
learning piece and what I can take here in Australia
and promote that. I'll try my very hardest. Yes.
S2 (17:19):
Were you aware of Sport Integrity Australia prior to to
joining the organisation in this role? Were you aware of
everything that they did?
S3 (17:28):
Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't until I was looking at
it from like a wider lens that I could see
all the work that was happening behind the scenes, like
it was like the puzzle pieces were being put together. Um,
just around like the education piece that we've done here
as a board. Integrity Australia around supplements. And then I,
(17:50):
I could see the shift. I'm like, oh yeah, that
makes so much sense. Um, so yeah, we've had a
lot to do with Sport Integrity Australia across the years.
We've always had those educational pieces, um, talks, drug tests. Um,
so yeah, it's not a, it's not a new, new
thing for us.
S2 (18:09):
Listen, you go out and educate others, don't you? In
your role with Paralympics Australia? Ideal, uh, position really for
former primary school teacher out there teaching again, aren't you? Yeah.
S3 (18:19):
Combining sport and Paralympics and teaching all together. It's a
dream job.
S2 (18:25):
And the elite athlete. Yep. To boot. Thanks very much
for joining us Ella. And congratulations on the role as
you've achieved.
S3 (18:31):
Thank you so much.
S2 (18:33):
Our next guest is Richard Nicholson, a Paralympic silver medallist
across two sports powerlifting and on the track in the
four by 100 relay. Richard's sporting journey began in 1982
at the age of 12, in archery. Less than a
year later, he began training and competing in mainstream gymnastics
alongside able bodied competitors. His first disability sport, powerlifting, led
(18:55):
to his first Paralympic Games in Atlanta in 1996, at
the age of 26. Richard, thanks very much for joining
on side. Oh, a pleasure to be here, Tim. You've
had an incredible journey and you're able to use that
experience now, aren't you in your current role at Sport
Integrity Australia in the partnerships team?
S4 (19:11):
Yeah, I've managed to sort of combine both my athletic
career or sporting career and a professional career in sports
administration across a number of roles in from the Australian
Sports Commission, AIS and now in Sport Integrity.
S2 (19:24):
What do you remember most about your sporting career apart
from the success on the track? But I guess the journey,
the battle, um, to get recognition in the first place?
S4 (19:35):
Um, yeah. Well, along the way I saw the evolution
of the Paralympics and disability sport in Australia go from
being essentially a volunteer based, um run, um, sporting events
to where the Paralympics are today. And, you know, one
of the major sporting, um, events that happens worldwide and,
(19:56):
you know, attracting global, um, viewers and, and interest and
corporate sponsorship. So it's it's been a great journey to
be part of that.
S2 (20:03):
Can I take you back to those early days just
to look about the experience that you had? Um, can
you tell us some of the struggles that you had
early on as a Paralympian?
S4 (20:14):
Well, I guess when I first entered into, um, disability
sport in Australia, there were so many small organisations running it,
I didn't really know where I fitted in. There was
all these, um, what we call national sporting organisations for disabilities,
and there was one for amputees and one for short
statured people and one for people with intellectual impairments. And
one there was just a plethora of them, you know,
(20:36):
one for wheelchair users. And there was athletes competing across
all these sort of competitions. And it was really quite
a confusing space. And, um, you know, but slowly over time, um,
you know, there's mainstreaming came in post the Sydney Paralympics
and things, you know, the, our national sporting organisations started
taking responsibility for, you know, the inclusion of people with disabilities.
(20:59):
And that was, uh, quite a exciting journey to be
part of too.
S2 (21:03):
I remember in Atlanta 1996 and, uh, as soon as
the Olympics finished, uh, all of the infrastructure suddenly went down.
Yet the Paralympics were going to start two weeks later. Uh,
that must have been disheartening.
S4 (21:16):
Yeah, I was that was my first Paralympic Games. And
I was really, like all athletes excited to get into
the village. And when we arrived, there were literally, you know,
a swarm of. You know, I tried. He's tearing down
various events and various things within inside the, um, village
and dismantling it. And I thought, well, what's going on here?
We haven't even started yet. And, um, you know, the
(21:39):
Paralympics in 1996 were literally saved by a large philanthropic
donation by the Shepherd Center in Atlanta. Um, or those
games would have been cancelled altogether.
S2 (21:49):
Was that the spark that you ended up becoming an
advocate for people with a disability and their rights? And, um,
the expectations is that when you thought, well, gee, something's
got to be done here.
S4 (22:02):
Um, to be honest, I think my motivation, um, was
a little bit more intrinsic in terms of, um, I
didn't compete well at Atlanta, and I knew I could
have done better. So I think my main motivation, um,
following Atlanta was just to become a better athlete. Um,
and I felt a lot of those other things were
out of my control. Um, and I didn't really start
(22:22):
my career in sports administration until just before Sydney Paralympics.
So that's when I started to think about a bigger
picture and how I could be involved in, in, um,
changing that for the better.
S2 (22:33):
So that was four years later that you thought, I'm
going to make a difference here. Yeah. Did you receive
much support from your fellow athletes when you started voicing
concerns about things should be better?
S4 (22:46):
I guess. I was working at the Australian Sports Commission
at the time and being an athlete. Yeah, I heard
a lot of athlete voices and I could sort of
I had a voice within that organisation to think about
and talk about things that weren't quite right. And the
inequity that was, you know, glaringly apparent at that time between,
I guess, able bodied sport and sport for people with disabilities.
(23:09):
Do you think.
S2 (23:10):
We've reached a point that is a level playing field yet, though?
S4 (23:14):
Um, I. It's certainly changed a lot for the better. Um.
I think there's certainly always more work can be done
in this space, you know? Um. Yeah. We get we're
much closer.
S2 (23:29):
Because you didn't have a lot of funding, did you?
In the lead up, for instance, to 1996 and and
even for the next four years, it was a home
games in Sydney. So you had a bit more funding. Yeah.
S4 (23:40):
There was a little bit more funding come in um,
to disability sport because it was a home games. And
obviously Australia wants to do well at their home games
and we topped the medal tally. So that was you know,
it was an outstanding performance by all our athletes, the
administrators and coaches and everyone involved. You know, um, putting
that event on and being part of that team, it
was outstanding. Um, but it was really post, um, 2000
(24:02):
and the goodwill that the Paralympics brought throughout the Australian
community that I thought that really spurred on, um, you know,
the acceptance and, and people wanting to be involved in
disability sport, I thought post the games was the real
watershed moment for disability sport in Australia because it's.
S2 (24:21):
Broader than sport, isn't it? What sport can bring to
the table in terms of showcasing Paralympians and people with
the disability in the incredible things that they can do?
That translates to the general community, not just sport, doesn't it?
S4 (24:36):
Yeah. Well, um, there was one incident at the Sydney
Paralympic Games that, you know, really did change my feeling
about sport and my role within it. And that was
one day I was walking between a couple of the
venues at, um, Sydney Olympic Park, and there was a, um,
a young boy with his mother and he said, oh, mum,
I wonder what that that man does, you know.
S2 (24:59):
Yeah.
S4 (24:59):
What what what what sport does that man play? You know, and, um,
it really made me stop and think because, you know,
for the previous 20 years, I'd heard children sort of say, oh,
why does that man use crutches? Or why is that man,
you know, in a wheelchair or what's wrong with that man?
You know, and there's simple, fair enough questions from a young,
you know, curious mind. Um, but this time he was
(25:21):
talking about, I wonder what sport that man plays. And
I realized that the power of sport has to change their, um,
perceptions of disability within the community. And, you know, I
was very fast learning what sport was doing for me
in my life and changing, I guess, perceptions I had
of myself, you know? So it was a really powerful moment.
S2 (25:42):
The language has changed as well. Which brings me to
my next point about. Talking about perceptions, but also the
way that we describe Paralympians. It's no longer people with
disabilities competing in sport, it's Paralympians to see what incredible
feats they can achieve.
S4 (26:01):
Yeah, the language has changed and that's actually quite important.
I think. You know, the society's beliefs and cultures and
values are based around the language that we do use.
So um, the change in language can go a long way. And,
you know, leading into the, um, London Paralympic Games, for instance,
Sebastian Coe, you know, he was the head honcho, he
was running the show. And he always anytime he mentioned
(26:24):
the Olympic Games, he always mentioned the Paralympic Games in
the same sentence. And he promoted there's a six week
sporting festival, you know, um, as one event with, with
two games and the language that he used and the
way that the London Paralympics in particular was promoted was fantastic.
S2 (26:42):
So how do you see Paralympic sport and the role
of Paralympians continuing to influence you, being a former athlete
now in your role at Sport Integrity Australia with the
partnerships team, what influence do you see that can be
made through your eyes and your role here?
S4 (27:02):
Well, I just if you just look at sort of recently,
you know, the current batch of Paralympians, they their articles
are now um, they've got articles not only just sort
of on the back pages of sport, which was a
feat in itself at some stage. You know, I remember
Louise Savage winning a Boston Marathon and barely getting two
lines in, you know, in the news in brief. Um,
(27:22):
and nowadays you've, you know, you've got athletes like Madison
de Rozario and she's appearing in all sorts of different
magazines across different media, um, spaces. And there's just a
lot more, um, promotion and a lot more acceptance. People
want to know about the stories behind the athletes and
things like that. So yeah, it's changed significantly.
S2 (27:43):
It's the back stories have become increasingly important, haven't they?
S4 (27:46):
Yeah, definitely. And certainly every everyone has a back story,
but a lot of the Paralympic ones are quite intriguing.
You know they're all a little bit different of course.
You know. And you've got someone like Curtis McGrath who he, um,
you know, lost both his legs in a, in a, um,
explosion in Afghanistan. And, you know, he's now one of
the world's top paddlers. And he's got a fantastic back story.
(28:08):
And there's all every Paralympian has a fantastic back story.
S2 (28:12):
Do you see yourself playing an important role going forward
in in Paralympic sport, even though you're not not a
competitor anymore? But do you sort of see yourself as
being an important voice out there?
S4 (28:23):
Um, probably not in the mainstream, but certainly, you know,
I'm conscious of my lived experience within, um, Sport Integrity Australia.
And I would like to think that I would be
able to bring something to the table within the organisation,
across the organisation that, um, may have some, you know,
impact across Paralympic sport, if just not making sure that
(28:45):
everyone in, in our organisation is aware of disability sport and,
and how it operates and how we can support it.
S2 (28:53):
Yes, because that lived experience that you've had becomes incredibly relatable,
doesn't it, to athletes, administrators when they know that you've
been there, done that? Yeah.
S4 (29:03):
Well, I guess lived experience. I mean, if if you
haven't had that lived experience, it just becomes a case study.
But if you've had that lived experience, I think it
adds a lot more weight to, you know, anything that
you might be saying or wanting to achieve or influence.
S2 (29:17):
In general life, you know, is it easy to get
around for yourself in a wheelchair? Are there things that
still need to be done infrastructure wise and acceptance wise?
Do you still feel as though there are important steps
to be made there?
S4 (29:31):
Australia as a whole is a pretty good, you know,
well developed country and we're pretty good in that space.
But there's yeah, there's the odd occasion where you get
where there's um, you know, there's, there's just steps that's
the only access into a building and things like that.
I think overall the access physical access in Australia is,
is pretty good. Um. You know, unfortunately, the biggest barrier to,
(29:54):
I guess, inclusion of people with disabilities is always that
attitudinal barrier. And, you know, in the last certainly in
the last 20 years, I think a lot of those
barriers have been sort of broken down. But there's still sometimes, um, problems,
you know, sometimes flying domestically in Australia on our airlines
can be quite challenging for people in wheelchairs and people
(30:16):
with disabilities. So that still occurs.
S2 (30:18):
But love laughs okay.
S4 (30:20):
Yeah.
S2 (30:21):
Life's okay. Good on you Richard. Thanks very much for
joining us. And onside and all the best and well
done on your role here at Sport Integrity Australia. Okay.
S4 (30:29):
Thanks very much, Tim.
S2 (30:33):
Thanks for listening to onside. I'm Tim Gavel. We'll have
another episode shortly.
S1 (30:41):
You've been listening to onside, the official podcast of Sport
Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to
media at Sport integrity.org. For more information on Sport Integrity Australia,
please visit our website. Sport integrity gov.au or check out
(31:03):
our Clean Sport app.
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