March 25, 2024 • 25 mins
This week, we’re talking relationships.
When we’re pushing towards a goal, or just generally having a tough time, many of us will instinctively turn to our friends, family, colleagues, or even pets for support. But… why? What is it about our relationships that can help pick us up when we’re feeling down? And why is nurturing those connections key to both our physical and mental health, and achieving our goals?
This week, we sit down with Dr Anna Machin. She’s an evolutionary anthropologist who’s spent her career studying the science of close human relationships. From the neurochemicals underlying your tightest friendships to the best social activities for your brain when facing down deadlines, we’re digging deep into how our connection with others helps us get where we want to be.
This is On Your Marks. Because you’ll never know until you try.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Student 1 (00:01):
It is nice to have people around, definitely, to motivate you.
Student 2 (00:04):
That gives you kind of the comfort of " Oh, someone who's going through the same
issue as me."
Student 3 (00:07):
It made me feel like we were all in the
same boat, and we all felt the same. I didn't
feel like I was just alone in the process.
Student 4 (00:13):
And sometimes all it takes is one person to work
something slightly different, and then all of a sudden it all
clicks in your head.
Krutika Adatia (00:17):
Hello, I'm Krutika Adatia, and I'm a chartered accountant. I now
support accountancy students through their training. And as an educator,
I'm regularly up close and personal with some of the
common issues people face while studying for and sitting their
accountancy exams. So in this series for the ACCA, I'm
chatting to experts about strategies we can all use when
(00:41):
facing some of life's challenges. And this week, we're looking
at one of the key supports that many of us
instinctively turn to when we're facing obstacles in life. How are
friends and family? What does it mean when we say
humans are social animals? How does having strong social networks
help us accomplish tasks and deal with challenges? And if
we're feeling isolated, what steps can we take to improve
(01:04):
our social relationships and our sense of community? This is
On Your Marks, because you'll never know until you try.
We hear it all the time, humans are social creatures,
and having a network and support system can make all
the difference when we're struggling. For me personally, I find
it really difficult to talk about emotions and ask for
(01:25):
help when I'm having a hard time. When I was
doing the equivalent strategic professional- level exams for ages, I
kept things bottled inside and got really stressed. It was
only later, when talking to other students, that I realized
we were all feeling the same way. So with me
today to talk about how our relationships can help us
when we're facing tough challenges, I've got Dr. Anna Machin.
(01:48):
Anna is an evolutionary anthropologist who has spent her career
studying the science of close human relationships, including writing two
books on the subject. So, Anna, when we say humans
are social creatures, what do we actually mean?
Anna Machin (02:01):
So what we really mean is, humans are cooperative species.
We need each other just to survive. So we've evolved
to need each other to help raise our children. If
you've ever got children in your life, you know how
hard that is. We need to cooperate to socially learn,
to learn from each other because there's so much to
learn, and we need to cooperate just to get the
food we need, the water we need, the shelter we
need. So we need each other actually to do those
(02:23):
basic survival things. But beyond that, we need each other
because the social connections that we build have a major,
major influence on your mental and physical health, on your
longevity, but also just on your life satisfaction. So we
have this visceral need to be with each other.
Krutika Adatia (02:39):
Well, you mentioned social learning, which we'll come onto because
I think that'll be particularly relevant for our listeners today.
But can you just tell us why are these relationships
so important to us?
Anna Machin (02:49):
Because, at the most basic level, you wouldn't survive without
other people in your life. If you were a helpless
baby and you're simply left to deal with that on
your own, you wouldn't get very far. So from the
very moment we're born, we are relying on other people
to raise us, to teach us, to keep us safe
all the way through our lives. And even if, as
an adult, you think you're an island and you can
cope on your own, if you just think of the
(03:11):
number of people you cooperate with, even if you actually
don't really know them, let's say you get a supermarket
delivery or you watch something on the telly that's teaching
you about your health, whatever it might be, you are relying on
other humans to give you that information to pick and
pack that food and deliver it to your door. So,
as a human, you actually cannot survive without having some
source of cooperative relationship with somebody else. But beyond that,
(03:35):
actually, most of us do have very, very close social
relationships based on love, for example, with our family, with
our friends, with our partners going forward. So, as a
species, we, actually, literally do not exist without that.
Krutika Adatia (03:47):
And so does that mean from the students, let's say
who are studying, if they had a study buddy, for
instance, would that be more beneficial with the social learning aspect?
Anna Machin (03:58):
Absolutely. I think, I'm not an accountant, but I imagine
what you are learning is probably pretty complex. And because
it's complex, we will approach it in different ways. People
learn in different ways, and people bring different things out
of what they're learning. So we know that actually, if
you learn as a group, it's much, much easier because
you see different perspectives, you suggest different ways of learning something,
but also just simply being in that group lowers your
(04:18):
stress levels. And we know that you learn much, much
better if you have lower levels of the stress hormone
cortisol in your system. And simply by being with those people,
maybe having a laugh, supporting each other, you're producing lots
of obviously social hormones, and social hormones are really, really good at
counteracting cortisol.
Krutika Adatia (04:34):
And that's great because you've referenced hormones there. So, I was going
to ask you, what's actually happening in our brains and
what chemicals are being released when we're socializing?
Anna Machin (04:42):
So there are three key chemicals that are involved when we
interact with other people that oxytocin, dopamine, and beta- endorphin.
And I think most people have heard of oxytocin. It's
known as the cuddle hormone, but actually it's released in
any situation when we're interacting with another person. It's released
most strongly through touch, but it can also be released
simply by being in proximity to someone. And oxytocin is
really clever because what it does is it actually quietens
(05:04):
the fear center of your brain, which really helps if
you're nervous or if you're stressed, and it makes you much,
much more confident. And that's why it's known as sort
of the social bonding hormone. It makes us more confident
about talking to other people. And then we have dopamine,
and dopamine's really great, because that's your hormone of motivation. So when you are with people,
you get a lovely hit of dopamine, and you are just generally
(05:24):
more motivated to do things in your life. So that's
why sometimes, if we haven't seen people for a bit,
we kind of think that a sofa is a safe
place to be. But actually, once you're out with those people,
you suddenly feel that real kick of wanting to achieve something.
So we get dopamine as well. It's a general reward chemical.
And then we get sort of the king of the
bonding hormone. Now that's beta- endorphin. And beta- endorphin is
an opiate, so it's a little bit like heroin or morphine,
(05:47):
but it's produced by your body, and it makes you
feel really euphoric. It makes you feel really warm, really calm,
and actually just really open to being with other people.
But in a situation where you might be with a
group of fellow students, for example, it's really good because
it's released by lots of different behaviors that we do
in social groups. So, for example, by laughing, by chatting,
(06:08):
by just touching somebody's arm. So probably if you're studying
in a group and maybe you have a little bit
of a laugh while you're doing it, you're getting a
lovely hit of beta- endorphin, and all of those are
going to really work against any stress you feel in
your body or any cortisol that's in your system.
Krutika Adatia (06:23):
I love that you have these amazing chemical reactions happening
in your brain that just make you feel great and
also help you reduce stress. It sounds like being around
people is a thing we should be doing more of.
Anna Machin (06:35):
Absolutely, yeah.
Krutika Adatia (06:36):
And I suppose we live in a society now where
we have so much technology. I know I have my
phone, I have my tablet, my laptop, so we tend
to communicate more through devices now. So I'm just wondering
with these amazing chemicals that you are referring to, and you
mentioned touch earlier as well, obviously, I can't touch anyone
through my screen, not yet anyway. Is it achieving the
(06:57):
same effect by communicating virtually?
Anna Machin (06:59):
It really depends on what medium you use. So no,
if you're simply chatting to someone on a WhatsApp group or
you are texting them, for example, I'm afraid not, no.
These hormones are generally released by your senses, by your
senses being stimulated. So, at the very least, you need
to hear someone's voice. If you can see them as
well, then you're also getting that visual input. So what
(07:21):
I say to people is, if you can't be in
a room with somebody, the best thing you can do
is set up a video call because then you're going
to get the most sensory input that you can, and
therefore you will get a release of these hormones. It's
not going to be as powerful as it is if you are
in the room with somebody, because that's how our brain
has evolved to be social. But at least if you
get some visual stimulation, you get some auditory stimulation, you
(07:43):
can see the person moving, you can hear their voice,
then you are going to get at least something. So
if you're going to set up a learning group, if
you can bear being on the screen, then try and
make it like a Teams meeting or a Zoom meeting
or something like that.
Krutika Adatia (07:55):
Oh, wow. Because, actually, I'm just thinking about COVID and
how that forced everyone to be on Zoom meetings endlessly
and transition to conference calls. I know I struggled with
that initially, but it's great to know that having a visual,
if it's a Zoom call that can still help. And
just sticking with the theme of technology, how do you
think that's actually influenced relationships in general?
Anna Machin (08:17):
It's weird. In one sense, it's good. I think it's
allowed, particularly those relationships which are long distance, to be
easier to manage, so you can get in touch with
people who are the other side of the world so
much easier now, and that's really great. But it has
been a really big downside. I think we are... As
humans, we love shiny new stuff. So we got this
shiny new tools of being able to communicate with our
(08:40):
phones, and we kind of dived in, and maybe we
thought that they were able to replace completely seeing people
in person and we could maintain our relationships just by
doing that. We know from studies, that's not true. If
you just maintain a relationship in that way, it's going
to decay much, much faster than it would if you,
for example, tried to see someone in person. So because you are
not getting the bonding hormones in most of the mediums,
(09:03):
we do see this degradation in the quality of the
relationship. You are not getting the positive feedback that you
get from actually seeing somebody in person, and that's going
to affect your mental health in particular. So what we
say to people is use them as a tool. They're
good as an organizing tool. They're good as... When you
want to talk to a whole group of people, they're
really, really helpful. But particularly those really intimate one- to-
(09:25):
one relationships, they're not so great at managing those. And
if you can be in the room with somebody, then
really, that's going to be much more valuable to you than
just sending a WhatsApp or something like that.
Krutika Adatia (09:36):
Well, that's great to know because I'm just thinking about
social media as well, and how certainly for the generation
now that WhatsApp is the way that they do communicate
and we see a lot of students trying to set
up WhatsApp study groups or we have Facebook study groups.
So would the advice here be try and keep it face- to-
face if possible?
Anna Machin (09:54):
Yeah, I mean, if you can, I understand that can
be logistically quite difficult if you can keep it face- to- face, because,
believe me, you will get much more of a boost
from doing that than you would even on a Zoom call.
But if you can't then, if you can bear it,
and I know we all get uncomfortable on Zoom calls,
we spend our whole time looking at ourselves and thinking,
but if you can bear it, then try and do
(10:16):
it with a visual medium and being able to hear
that person as well, because otherwise, whilst you are getting
support in a very practical way on a WhatsApp group,
you are not getting that support for your mental health, and
that's really the benefit of social interaction.
Krutika Adatia (10:31):
I hear you maybe thinking about voice notes then on
WhatsApp as well, that could potentially be now we can
send a quick little video note even.
Anna Machin (10:38):
Absolutely. Even something like that is better than simply relying
on text.
Krutika Adatia (10:43):
Noted. And actually, whilst we stick with technology I just want to ask about
artificial intelligence, I feel like it's so mainstream at the moment.
And just thinking about tools like ChatGPT, what's your sort
of views and opinions on artificial intelligence and how that's
affecting human relationships?
Anna Machin (11:01):
In my sphere, we are nervous about artificial intelligence because
my area of work is very much about the benefits
of true human social connection. And studies have shown that
if we get somebody, for example, to interact with a
humanoid robot, so something that even looks reasonably human, the
areas of the brain which light up when we interact
with a human, which is your prefrontal cortex, don't activate
(11:23):
at all. So, we do not recognize this being as
being human. Now, if I gave you a dog to
interact with, that would light up. So you get even
less of the social benefits from that than you would
from hugging your dog. So it concerns us because if
we're going to replace human interaction with AI interaction, again,
you are not going to get what ultimately is the
(11:45):
benefit of social interaction, which is all those lovely chemicals
and that really great impact on your health. So for
us in our particular area of research, it's very, very
concerning that people are suggesting that an AI- based bot,
or whatever it might be, might be able to replace
true human connection because the human brain has been evolving
for millions of years to be a social tool. And we
(12:09):
certainly don't believe that you can program that into a
robot. I mean, I interviewed someone for one of my books who
said the current social robots can't even do what your
dog can do.
Krutika Adatia (12:19):
Oh, wow.
Anna Machin (12:19):
So we're a long way off anything like empathy or
trust, or reciprocity, all those things that are associated with
social interaction ever being programmed into a robot.
Krutika Adatia (12:28):
And I do keep hearing that artificial intelligence can't really
think for itself like a human does. It's just pulling
information from lots of data that it has in its system.
And that's probably not the technical way to describe it,
but you get the point I'm making! Earlier, you mentioned the hormones that
are being released in the body when we have these
(12:48):
social connections. So how do relationships then help us face
challenges or help us overcome challenges that we might encounter?
I'm just thinking about my own personal experience when I
was struggling with exams and I felt a real overwhelm,
especially when I was studying, that actually speaking up ultimately
did help. And it is that saying of a problem
(13:09):
shared is a problem halved. So can you talk to
us a little bit about how relationships help with challenges?
Anna Machin (13:14):
They help in various ways. So if we look at
people's... We call it a social network. So the group
of people around you who support you are known as
your social network. And if we see how people are
embedded in that social network, first of all, just the practical help. So
silly things like if you're really tired at the end
of the day studying, someone cooking you a meal or
somebody, I don't know, doing your washing, or whatever it
might be, you get just general practical help from being
(13:37):
in a social network. And that's really, really important. You
get help from, yes, if you say sharing a problem
with a fellow student and getting a different perspective on
it, but the real benefit is the fact that you
are going to get this amazing health benefit from being
in that situation. So even if it's nothing to do
with being in a learning group, if, while you are studying, you
take a break and you simply just spend some time
(13:58):
with somebody you love, whether it be family, friends, whatever
it might be, you are going to get a lot
of the lovely bonding chemicals. They are going to relax
your body, they're going to do a lot for your
mental health. They underpin your immune system, for example. So
you're much less likely to get ill at that critical
point when you're trying to study and you're trying to
work towards an exam. So those are the benefits of
being social. It underpins your health, it's going to make
(14:19):
you feel amazing. You're going to get that social learning
support from other people. They might even be able to
teach you something you don't know. And ultimately, just the
practical stuff that yeah, there's somebody, maybe at home or
a neighbor, or anybody who's just going to do those
little things in life that make it easier for you
to focus on what you need to focus on.
Krutika Adatia (14:34):
I love that you mentioned that you can have somebody
maybe helping you out in the house to cook you a
meal or something. I know, when I was at university,
I often used to love coming back home, especially during
the revision period, because my mom would do my laundry and she's got for me.
Anna Machin (14:47):
Yeah, exactly.
Krutika Adatia (14:47):
And it's little things like that that really do help and
just help you focus on the studies, I guess, like you say.
Anna Machin (14:53):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Krutika Adatia (14:55):
Just circling back to a point we made earlier about
technology and social media, which is obviously so rife right
now in society, everyone uses it. There's also that feeling
of individuals feeling more isolated, although it's making us feel
more connected, are we actually really more connected? So what
happens when we feel isolated?
Anna Machin (15:15):
So what's happening when you feel isolated is several things,
because when we look at social connection, there is the
neurochemical basis of social connection, but there's also the psychological basis
of social connection. So loneliness is a psychological condition, and
as humans, and I think we all realized it during
COVID. First of all, a lot of people's mental health
suffered, but also, I don't know whether you experienced it,
(15:36):
I certainly did. You actually had a physical craving to
be with the people you loved, and that underpins some forms
of loneliness. But that is actually because you are not getting
that nurturing neurochemistry from being with them. When we don't
get that, we actually go into opiate withdrawal. Now, opiate...
Because beta- endorphin is an opiate in the same way
(15:59):
that if you can become addicted to morphine, you actually
become addicted to the people you're in love with because
when you're with them, you get a hit of beta-
endorphin. When you're away from them, you go into withdrawal.
And that's a very simple mechanism that keeps this together. But
when you actually can't physically be with the people that
are your source of opiates, it becomes very painful. It
becomes painful psychologically, but it also becomes painful, actually, physiologically,
(16:21):
because beta- endorphin underpins your pain system. So all those
aches and pains that you are kind of used to in life
have been covered up because you're in a relationship suddenly
reappear. So you've got psychological withdrawal going on, and you've
also got physiological withdrawal. And that's why loneliness, isolation can
feel so incredibly heavy, so incredibly painful because you are actually going
(16:42):
through this major chemical withdrawal experience. And because we are so
used to having people in our lives, we actually subsume
people into our identity. So I don't know how you describe yourself, but
I'm an anthropologist, and I'm a keen guard. I don't
like cooking. But actually, if I was to define myself
really it's mostly by my relationships. So I'm a sister, I'm
(17:04):
a daughter, I'm a mum, I'm a wife, I'm a
dog owner. And those are all relationships. And when we
don't see the people who are in our world, actually,
part of our identity disappears. And that, again, can be
quite hard to deal with. So whilst we think we're
connecting on social media because we're not actually doing it
(17:24):
the way our brains evolved to do it, which is
in the room, you're not truly, as far as your
brain is concerned, connecting at all. It doesn't understand screens,
it doesn't understand text, writing evolved about 4, 000 years ago.
So it's an evolutionary time. It's nothing. And I think
that's why, even though we think we have 500 friends
on Facebook, we can feel very, very lonely.
Krutika Adatia (17:47):
And that's really interesting to know because you sort of
mentioned the point about during COVID, and I felt like
during COVID I turned to technology a lot, and actually
that made me feel more empty. And there was a
point where I just had Zoom fatigue. I was doing
birthday parties on Zoom, and you are doing FaceTime calls, and I'm
like, God damn it, I just want to see my
family now. I just want to see my friends. So
(18:09):
yeah, it's interesting that you-
Anna Machin (18:10):
Well, also, I think part of that is because when
your brain doesn't understand the medium of Zoom, it doesn't
understand screens, it doesn't understand this thing in front of
it. And so it's having to work incredibly hard, even
though it's taking in sensory information. Whilst you're an absolute
king or queen at sensory information in person, I'm taking
in so much information from you, my brain is chartering
(18:31):
away and spitting out lots of stuff that's really helping
me. It is much harder for it to do that
on Zoom. So it's actually having to work very, very
hard, and that's why you feel tireder because, cognitively, you
are tireder because you're having to work so hard.
Krutika Adatia (18:44):
I definitely struggle with picking up on cues when I'm
on Zoom. So I'm glad that you've kind of validated
that it's not me, it's my brain's just not able
to deal with it as best as if it was in a face- to-
face conversation. So then, just coming back to, obviously, we
know isolation isn't great for our body and mind. What
can people do when they're feeling isolated?
Anna Machin (19:06):
Obviously, the easiest thing to do is reach out and
spend some time with somebody, but some people find that
very hard. Some of us are more sociable than others.
What we say is, if you can't be social for
whatever reason, what we try to do then is ask
you to do behaviors which mimic the neurochemistry released when
you're social. So there are ways you can, for example,
release dopamine. There are ways you can release beta- endorphin
(19:27):
without actually being with somebody else. So dopamine is your general
reward chemical. So anything that you get that sensation of
enjoyment from has released dopamine. So even if it's eating
a tub of ice cream and you feel great, that's dopamine.
Krutika Adatia (19:40):
Sounds like my kind of thing.
Anna Machin (19:41):
Yeah, exactly. Or hugging a puppy, whatever it might be. So
you can produce dopamine by just finding something that you
enjoy doing. Beta- endorphin is actually reasonably easy to produce
on your own. It's produced by exercise. I think people
who get runners high or gym addicts know that that
euphoric feeling you feel and the fact that you can
become addicted to exercise, that's beta- endorphin. So any form
(20:03):
of exercise can do that. Something like a massage. So
touch is the most powerful release of social hormones that
there is. So you will get a lovely hit of
oxytocin and beta- endorphin if you have a massage, dancing,
and singing release beta- endorphin. So if you just dance around
your kitchen singing out, tune to something on the radio
that will release beta- endorphin. The great joy of being
(20:23):
with other people, though, is, those levels of beta- endorphin
and oxytocin, and dopamine are multiplied manyfold if you are actually
with somebody else. So you can mimic it, but you're
just not going to get the hit. It's not going
to be as big a hit than if you do
it socially, but there are behaviors you can do to
mimic it.
Krutika Adatia (20:40):
Well, it's great to know that you've mentioned things like
eating a tub of ice cream might just help me.
Maybe avoid eating much of the ice cream, but also exercise. I know
that's something that can be great. And certainly, for me,
when I was studying and I was stuck on a
problem, I often found that just going out for a
walk near the local park helped. And that walking is
a great form of exercise as well, isn't it?
Anna Machin (21:00):
It is. No, I find that completely. If I'm stuck
on something, I spend a lot of time writing, and
if I get to a dead end, if I go
for a walk, it's amazing how suddenly everything sort of
clarifies itself. And that is partly the exercise, that's the
oxygenation of the brain and just letting it have a
little rest as well. But it is a lot to
do with the fact that you've produced beta- endorphin, and
that just brings that clarity.
Krutika Adatia (21:18):
Oh, thank you so much. And I feel like I've understood
a lot about myself as well and just the importance
of social connection. So obviously, for some of our students,
they might be with a tuition provider, and when that's
the case, they tend to be in person in a face- to-
face class, as was the situation for me. And so I
was able to build connections that way. But granted, there'll
be students who are also self- studying, and they might
(21:40):
be thinking, " Right, where do I go to form these
connections? How can I get a study buddy?" And yes,
we do have forums, ACCA offers to connect with other
students. You've got things like Facebook pages, but what would
your advice be to these students who are self- studying
and want to find connection with other students?
Anna Machin (22:02):
Well, it sounds like the Facebook page is a good
place to start. So maybe try set up a WhatsApp group. That's
a really good way to introduce yourself, to start to
get to know people. And it's a great way to ask
practical questions. Obviously, that's very easy. But I would say
if you can be brave enough, once you've set up
that WhatsApp group, once you've talked to people on there, if
you can encourage people to have a video call or
(22:23):
even meet up if somebody's nearby, then you really well
be reaping the benefits of having those connections. So maybe
use the WhatsApp group as a jumping- off point to
actually then maybe expand that a bit and get that
sensory experience, and do the video call.
Krutika Adatia (22:38):
So just thinking about students who are working and studying
and might be thinking, " I don't have time for this,"
what would your advice be there?
Anna Machin (22:45):
Okay, if you want to maximize your time and you
want to do it in a short period of time as possible,
be in the same room, be in a group if
you can, and do one of our lovely endorphin- releasing
activities together. Because what we know is, you can do
an activity on your own that produces endorphins, like exercise
or dancing or singing, or whatever that may be. And
it will give you an endorphin hit. And that's lovely.
(23:07):
But the bizarre thing is, as humans, if we do
one of those activities together in what we call synchrony,
that release of endorphins for that whole group is ramped
up 10-20 fold. It's an amazing phenomenon, and it's actually
what bonds groups together. So what I would say is,
if exercise is your thing, go to an exercise class, do
it all together with your friends, you are going to get a massive
(23:28):
hit of beta- endorphin. If that's not your thing, go
out dancing, join a choir, or something like that. Or
even if you've got those 15 minutes and you've come
together as a study group and you're having a cup
of tea or whatever, if you can convince people, either
put something on the radio and sing along to it
or have a bit of a dance around the kitchen
together. I know it sounds silly, but believe me, you
will get this multi- fold increase in beta- endorphin, and
(23:49):
you'll get all the positive effects, but in a really
short period of time.
Krutika Adatia (23:52):
I'm just thinking about learning a TikTok dance over that 15
minutes. Why not? Right?
Anna Machin (23:55):
Why not? Exactly. And then film it.
Krutika Adatia (23:59):
So before we wrap up, just wanted to ask you,
what three strategies do you have to make the most
out of social connections?
Anna Machin (24:05):
I would say make them face- to- face. Okay. Try
to do something in your social connections that's going to
generate a bit of beta- endorphin, a bit of oxytocin,
a bit of dopamine. So if you can have a laugh,
I mean even if it's having to go to a comedy
club together, do that. That's absolutely great. Go and do
exercise together. Go and dancing together. Anything like that, that
(24:27):
produces it. And whilst it's important to be social, obviously
when you are working, it's also important to remember to
be social in your downtime as well. That really truly
relaxing time. And I will also say, if you aren't
a particularly sociable person, and we're not all particularly sociable,
it doesn't have to be with a human. We get
some of the release of some of these chemicals from
(24:47):
your pet dog, or if you've got a cat, hug
your cat. All of these things will produce beta- endorphin.
So if people aren't your thing, then maybe turn to
something nice and warm, and furry.
Krutika Adatia (24:58):
Thank you so much, Anna, for this conversation. That's it from
this episode of On Your Marks. Thank you, Anna, for
talking with me today. For more information about ACCA exams,
you can go to www. accaglobal. com/ exams. See you
next time. I'm Krutika Adatia, and this has been On Your Marks.
It is nice to have people around, definitely, to motivate you.
Student 2 (00:04):
That gives you kind of the comfort of " Oh, someone who's going through the same
issue as me."
Student 3 (00:07):
It made me feel like we were all in the
same boat, and we all felt the same. I didn't
feel like I was just alone in the process.
Student 4 (00:13):
And sometimes all it takes is one person to work
something slightly different, and then all of a sudden it all
clicks in your head.
Krutika Adatia (00:17):
Hello, I'm Krutika Adatia, and I'm a chartered accountant. I now
support accountancy students through their training. And as an educator,
I'm regularly up close and personal with some of the
common issues people face while studying for and sitting their
accountancy exams. So in this series for the ACCA, I'm
chatting to experts about strategies we can all use when
(00:41):
facing some of life's challenges. And this week, we're looking
at one of the key supports that many of us
instinctively turn to when we're facing obstacles in life. How are
friends and family? What does it mean when we say
humans are social animals? How does having strong social networks
help us accomplish tasks and deal with challenges? And if
we're feeling isolated, what steps can we take to improve
(01:04):
our social relationships and our sense of community? This is
On Your Marks, because you'll never know until you try.
We hear it all the time, humans are social creatures,
and having a network and support system can make all
the difference when we're struggling. For me personally, I find
it really difficult to talk about emotions and ask for
(01:25):
help when I'm having a hard time. When I was
doing the equivalent strategic professional- level exams for ages, I
kept things bottled inside and got really stressed. It was
only later, when talking to other students, that I realized
we were all feeling the same way. So with me
today to talk about how our relationships can help us
when we're facing tough challenges, I've got Dr. Anna Machin.
(01:48):
Anna is an evolutionary anthropologist who has spent her career
studying the science of close human relationships, including writing two
books on the subject. So, Anna, when we say humans
are social creatures, what do we actually mean?
Anna Machin (02:01):
So what we really mean is, humans are cooperative species.
We need each other just to survive. So we've evolved
to need each other to help raise our children. If
you've ever got children in your life, you know how
hard that is. We need to cooperate to socially learn,
to learn from each other because there's so much to
learn, and we need to cooperate just to get the
food we need, the water we need, the shelter we
need. So we need each other actually to do those
(02:23):
basic survival things. But beyond that, we need each other
because the social connections that we build have a major,
major influence on your mental and physical health, on your
longevity, but also just on your life satisfaction. So we
have this visceral need to be with each other.
Krutika Adatia (02:39):
Well, you mentioned social learning, which we'll come onto because
I think that'll be particularly relevant for our listeners today.
But can you just tell us why are these relationships
so important to us?
Anna Machin (02:49):
Because, at the most basic level, you wouldn't survive without
other people in your life. If you were a helpless
baby and you're simply left to deal with that on
your own, you wouldn't get very far. So from the
very moment we're born, we are relying on other people
to raise us, to teach us, to keep us safe
all the way through our lives. And even if, as
an adult, you think you're an island and you can
cope on your own, if you just think of the
(03:11):
number of people you cooperate with, even if you actually
don't really know them, let's say you get a supermarket
delivery or you watch something on the telly that's teaching
you about your health, whatever it might be, you are relying on
other humans to give you that information to pick and
pack that food and deliver it to your door. So,
as a human, you actually cannot survive without having some
source of cooperative relationship with somebody else. But beyond that,
(03:35):
actually, most of us do have very, very close social
relationships based on love, for example, with our family, with
our friends, with our partners going forward. So, as a
species, we, actually, literally do not exist without that.
Krutika Adatia (03:47):
And so does that mean from the students, let's say
who are studying, if they had a study buddy, for
instance, would that be more beneficial with the social learning aspect?
Anna Machin (03:58):
Absolutely. I think, I'm not an accountant, but I imagine
what you are learning is probably pretty complex. And because
it's complex, we will approach it in different ways. People
learn in different ways, and people bring different things out
of what they're learning. So we know that actually, if
you learn as a group, it's much, much easier because
you see different perspectives, you suggest different ways of learning something,
but also just simply being in that group lowers your
(04:18):
stress levels. And we know that you learn much, much
better if you have lower levels of the stress hormone
cortisol in your system. And simply by being with those people,
maybe having a laugh, supporting each other, you're producing lots
of obviously social hormones, and social hormones are really, really good at
counteracting cortisol.
Krutika Adatia (04:34):
And that's great because you've referenced hormones there. So, I was going
to ask you, what's actually happening in our brains and
what chemicals are being released when we're socializing?
Anna Machin (04:42):
So there are three key chemicals that are involved when we
interact with other people that oxytocin, dopamine, and beta- endorphin.
And I think most people have heard of oxytocin. It's
known as the cuddle hormone, but actually it's released in
any situation when we're interacting with another person. It's released
most strongly through touch, but it can also be released
simply by being in proximity to someone. And oxytocin is
really clever because what it does is it actually quietens
(05:04):
the fear center of your brain, which really helps if
you're nervous or if you're stressed, and it makes you much,
much more confident. And that's why it's known as sort
of the social bonding hormone. It makes us more confident
about talking to other people. And then we have dopamine,
and dopamine's really great, because that's your hormone of motivation. So when you are with people,
you get a lovely hit of dopamine, and you are just generally
(05:24):
more motivated to do things in your life. So that's
why sometimes, if we haven't seen people for a bit,
we kind of think that a sofa is a safe
place to be. But actually, once you're out with those people,
you suddenly feel that real kick of wanting to achieve something.
So we get dopamine as well. It's a general reward chemical.
And then we get sort of the king of the
bonding hormone. Now that's beta- endorphin. And beta- endorphin is
an opiate, so it's a little bit like heroin or morphine,
(05:47):
but it's produced by your body, and it makes you
feel really euphoric. It makes you feel really warm, really calm,
and actually just really open to being with other people.
But in a situation where you might be with a
group of fellow students, for example, it's really good because
it's released by lots of different behaviors that we do
in social groups. So, for example, by laughing, by chatting,
(06:08):
by just touching somebody's arm. So probably if you're studying
in a group and maybe you have a little bit
of a laugh while you're doing it, you're getting a
lovely hit of beta- endorphin, and all of those are
going to really work against any stress you feel in
your body or any cortisol that's in your system.
Krutika Adatia (06:23):
I love that you have these amazing chemical reactions happening
in your brain that just make you feel great and
also help you reduce stress. It sounds like being around
people is a thing we should be doing more of.
Anna Machin (06:35):
Absolutely, yeah.
Krutika Adatia (06:36):
And I suppose we live in a society now where
we have so much technology. I know I have my
phone, I have my tablet, my laptop, so we tend
to communicate more through devices now. So I'm just wondering
with these amazing chemicals that you are referring to, and you
mentioned touch earlier as well, obviously, I can't touch anyone
through my screen, not yet anyway. Is it achieving the
(06:57):
same effect by communicating virtually?
Anna Machin (06:59):
It really depends on what medium you use. So no,
if you're simply chatting to someone on a WhatsApp group or
you are texting them, for example, I'm afraid not, no.
These hormones are generally released by your senses, by your
senses being stimulated. So, at the very least, you need
to hear someone's voice. If you can see them as
well, then you're also getting that visual input. So what
(07:21):
I say to people is, if you can't be in
a room with somebody, the best thing you can do
is set up a video call because then you're going
to get the most sensory input that you can, and
therefore you will get a release of these hormones. It's
not going to be as powerful as it is if you are
in the room with somebody, because that's how our brain
has evolved to be social. But at least if you
get some visual stimulation, you get some auditory stimulation, you
(07:43):
can see the person moving, you can hear their voice,
then you are going to get at least something. So
if you're going to set up a learning group, if
you can bear being on the screen, then try and
make it like a Teams meeting or a Zoom meeting
or something like that.
Krutika Adatia (07:55):
Oh, wow. Because, actually, I'm just thinking about COVID and
how that forced everyone to be on Zoom meetings endlessly
and transition to conference calls. I know I struggled with
that initially, but it's great to know that having a visual,
if it's a Zoom call that can still help. And
just sticking with the theme of technology, how do you
think that's actually influenced relationships in general?
Anna Machin (08:17):
It's weird. In one sense, it's good. I think it's
allowed, particularly those relationships which are long distance, to be
easier to manage, so you can get in touch with
people who are the other side of the world so
much easier now, and that's really great. But it has
been a really big downside. I think we are... As
humans, we love shiny new stuff. So we got this
shiny new tools of being able to communicate with our
(08:40):
phones, and we kind of dived in, and maybe we
thought that they were able to replace completely seeing people
in person and we could maintain our relationships just by
doing that. We know from studies, that's not true. If
you just maintain a relationship in that way, it's going
to decay much, much faster than it would if you,
for example, tried to see someone in person. So because you are
not getting the bonding hormones in most of the mediums,
(09:03):
we do see this degradation in the quality of the
relationship. You are not getting the positive feedback that you
get from actually seeing somebody in person, and that's going
to affect your mental health in particular. So what we
say to people is use them as a tool. They're
good as an organizing tool. They're good as... When you
want to talk to a whole group of people, they're
really, really helpful. But particularly those really intimate one- to-
(09:25):
one relationships, they're not so great at managing those. And
if you can be in the room with somebody, then
really, that's going to be much more valuable to you than
just sending a WhatsApp or something like that.
Krutika Adatia (09:36):
Well, that's great to know because I'm just thinking about
social media as well, and how certainly for the generation
now that WhatsApp is the way that they do communicate
and we see a lot of students trying to set
up WhatsApp study groups or we have Facebook study groups.
So would the advice here be try and keep it face- to-
face if possible?
Anna Machin (09:54):
Yeah, I mean, if you can, I understand that can
be logistically quite difficult if you can keep it face- to- face, because,
believe me, you will get much more of a boost
from doing that than you would even on a Zoom call.
But if you can't then, if you can bear it,
and I know we all get uncomfortable on Zoom calls,
we spend our whole time looking at ourselves and thinking,
but if you can bear it, then try and do
(10:16):
it with a visual medium and being able to hear
that person as well, because otherwise, whilst you are getting
support in a very practical way on a WhatsApp group,
you are not getting that support for your mental health, and
that's really the benefit of social interaction.
Krutika Adatia (10:31):
I hear you maybe thinking about voice notes then on
WhatsApp as well, that could potentially be now we can
send a quick little video note even.
Anna Machin (10:38):
Absolutely. Even something like that is better than simply relying
on text.
Krutika Adatia (10:43):
Noted. And actually, whilst we stick with technology I just want to ask about
artificial intelligence, I feel like it's so mainstream at the moment.
And just thinking about tools like ChatGPT, what's your sort
of views and opinions on artificial intelligence and how that's
affecting human relationships?
Anna Machin (11:01):
In my sphere, we are nervous about artificial intelligence because
my area of work is very much about the benefits
of true human social connection. And studies have shown that
if we get somebody, for example, to interact with a
humanoid robot, so something that even looks reasonably human, the
areas of the brain which light up when we interact
with a human, which is your prefrontal cortex, don't activate
(11:23):
at all. So, we do not recognize this being as
being human. Now, if I gave you a dog to
interact with, that would light up. So you get even
less of the social benefits from that than you would
from hugging your dog. So it concerns us because if
we're going to replace human interaction with AI interaction, again,
you are not going to get what ultimately is the
(11:45):
benefit of social interaction, which is all those lovely chemicals
and that really great impact on your health. So for
us in our particular area of research, it's very, very
concerning that people are suggesting that an AI- based bot,
or whatever it might be, might be able to replace
true human connection because the human brain has been evolving
for millions of years to be a social tool. And we
(12:09):
certainly don't believe that you can program that into a
robot. I mean, I interviewed someone for one of my books who
said the current social robots can't even do what your
dog can do.
Krutika Adatia (12:19):
Oh, wow.
Anna Machin (12:19):
So we're a long way off anything like empathy or
trust, or reciprocity, all those things that are associated with
social interaction ever being programmed into a robot.
Krutika Adatia (12:28):
And I do keep hearing that artificial intelligence can't really
think for itself like a human does. It's just pulling
information from lots of data that it has in its system.
And that's probably not the technical way to describe it,
but you get the point I'm making! Earlier, you mentioned the hormones that
are being released in the body when we have these
(12:48):
social connections. So how do relationships then help us face
challenges or help us overcome challenges that we might encounter?
I'm just thinking about my own personal experience when I
was struggling with exams and I felt a real overwhelm,
especially when I was studying, that actually speaking up ultimately
did help. And it is that saying of a problem
(13:09):
shared is a problem halved. So can you talk to
us a little bit about how relationships help with challenges?
Anna Machin (13:14):
They help in various ways. So if we look at
people's... We call it a social network. So the group
of people around you who support you are known as
your social network. And if we see how people are
embedded in that social network, first of all, just the practical help. So
silly things like if you're really tired at the end
of the day studying, someone cooking you a meal or
somebody, I don't know, doing your washing, or whatever it
might be, you get just general practical help from being
(13:37):
in a social network. And that's really, really important. You
get help from, yes, if you say sharing a problem
with a fellow student and getting a different perspective on
it, but the real benefit is the fact that you
are going to get this amazing health benefit from being
in that situation. So even if it's nothing to do
with being in a learning group, if, while you are studying, you
take a break and you simply just spend some time
(13:58):
with somebody you love, whether it be family, friends, whatever
it might be, you are going to get a lot
of the lovely bonding chemicals. They are going to relax
your body, they're going to do a lot for your
mental health. They underpin your immune system, for example. So
you're much less likely to get ill at that critical
point when you're trying to study and you're trying to
work towards an exam. So those are the benefits of
being social. It underpins your health, it's going to make
(14:19):
you feel amazing. You're going to get that social learning
support from other people. They might even be able to
teach you something you don't know. And ultimately, just the
practical stuff that yeah, there's somebody, maybe at home or
a neighbor, or anybody who's just going to do those
little things in life that make it easier for you
to focus on what you need to focus on.
Krutika Adatia (14:34):
I love that you mentioned that you can have somebody
maybe helping you out in the house to cook you a
meal or something. I know, when I was at university,
I often used to love coming back home, especially during
the revision period, because my mom would do my laundry and she's got for me.
Anna Machin (14:47):
Yeah, exactly.
Krutika Adatia (14:47):
And it's little things like that that really do help and
just help you focus on the studies, I guess, like you say.
Anna Machin (14:53):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Krutika Adatia (14:55):
Just circling back to a point we made earlier about
technology and social media, which is obviously so rife right
now in society, everyone uses it. There's also that feeling
of individuals feeling more isolated, although it's making us feel
more connected, are we actually really more connected? So what
happens when we feel isolated?
Anna Machin (15:15):
So what's happening when you feel isolated is several things,
because when we look at social connection, there is the
neurochemical basis of social connection, but there's also the psychological basis
of social connection. So loneliness is a psychological condition, and
as humans, and I think we all realized it during
COVID. First of all, a lot of people's mental health
suffered, but also, I don't know whether you experienced it,
(15:36):
I certainly did. You actually had a physical craving to
be with the people you loved, and that underpins some forms
of loneliness. But that is actually because you are not getting
that nurturing neurochemistry from being with them. When we don't
get that, we actually go into opiate withdrawal. Now, opiate...
Because beta- endorphin is an opiate in the same way
(15:59):
that if you can become addicted to morphine, you actually
become addicted to the people you're in love with because
when you're with them, you get a hit of beta-
endorphin. When you're away from them, you go into withdrawal.
And that's a very simple mechanism that keeps this together. But
when you actually can't physically be with the people that
are your source of opiates, it becomes very painful. It
becomes painful psychologically, but it also becomes painful, actually, physiologically,
(16:21):
because beta- endorphin underpins your pain system. So all those
aches and pains that you are kind of used to in life
have been covered up because you're in a relationship suddenly
reappear. So you've got psychological withdrawal going on, and you've
also got physiological withdrawal. And that's why loneliness, isolation can
feel so incredibly heavy, so incredibly painful because you are actually going
(16:42):
through this major chemical withdrawal experience. And because we are so
used to having people in our lives, we actually subsume
people into our identity. So I don't know how you describe yourself, but
I'm an anthropologist, and I'm a keen guard. I don't
like cooking. But actually, if I was to define myself
really it's mostly by my relationships. So I'm a sister, I'm
(17:04):
a daughter, I'm a mum, I'm a wife, I'm a
dog owner. And those are all relationships. And when we
don't see the people who are in our world, actually,
part of our identity disappears. And that, again, can be
quite hard to deal with. So whilst we think we're
connecting on social media because we're not actually doing it
(17:24):
the way our brains evolved to do it, which is
in the room, you're not truly, as far as your
brain is concerned, connecting at all. It doesn't understand screens,
it doesn't understand text, writing evolved about 4, 000 years ago.
So it's an evolutionary time. It's nothing. And I think
that's why, even though we think we have 500 friends
on Facebook, we can feel very, very lonely.
Krutika Adatia (17:47):
And that's really interesting to know because you sort of
mentioned the point about during COVID, and I felt like
during COVID I turned to technology a lot, and actually
that made me feel more empty. And there was a
point where I just had Zoom fatigue. I was doing
birthday parties on Zoom, and you are doing FaceTime calls, and I'm
like, God damn it, I just want to see my
family now. I just want to see my friends. So
(18:09):
yeah, it's interesting that you-
Anna Machin (18:10):
Well, also, I think part of that is because when
your brain doesn't understand the medium of Zoom, it doesn't
understand screens, it doesn't understand this thing in front of
it. And so it's having to work incredibly hard, even
though it's taking in sensory information. Whilst you're an absolute
king or queen at sensory information in person, I'm taking
in so much information from you, my brain is chartering
(18:31):
away and spitting out lots of stuff that's really helping
me. It is much harder for it to do that
on Zoom. So it's actually having to work very, very
hard, and that's why you feel tireder because, cognitively, you
are tireder because you're having to work so hard.
Krutika Adatia (18:44):
I definitely struggle with picking up on cues when I'm
on Zoom. So I'm glad that you've kind of validated
that it's not me, it's my brain's just not able
to deal with it as best as if it was in a face- to-
face conversation. So then, just coming back to, obviously, we
know isolation isn't great for our body and mind. What
can people do when they're feeling isolated?
Anna Machin (19:06):
Obviously, the easiest thing to do is reach out and
spend some time with somebody, but some people find that
very hard. Some of us are more sociable than others.
What we say is, if you can't be social for
whatever reason, what we try to do then is ask
you to do behaviors which mimic the neurochemistry released when
you're social. So there are ways you can, for example,
release dopamine. There are ways you can release beta- endorphin
(19:27):
without actually being with somebody else. So dopamine is your general
reward chemical. So anything that you get that sensation of
enjoyment from has released dopamine. So even if it's eating
a tub of ice cream and you feel great, that's dopamine.
Krutika Adatia (19:40):
Sounds like my kind of thing.
Anna Machin (19:41):
Yeah, exactly. Or hugging a puppy, whatever it might be. So
you can produce dopamine by just finding something that you
enjoy doing. Beta- endorphin is actually reasonably easy to produce
on your own. It's produced by exercise. I think people
who get runners high or gym addicts know that that
euphoric feeling you feel and the fact that you can
become addicted to exercise, that's beta- endorphin. So any form
(20:03):
of exercise can do that. Something like a massage. So
touch is the most powerful release of social hormones that
there is. So you will get a lovely hit of
oxytocin and beta- endorphin if you have a massage, dancing,
and singing release beta- endorphin. So if you just dance around
your kitchen singing out, tune to something on the radio
that will release beta- endorphin. The great joy of being
(20:23):
with other people, though, is, those levels of beta- endorphin
and oxytocin, and dopamine are multiplied manyfold if you are actually
with somebody else. So you can mimic it, but you're
just not going to get the hit. It's not going
to be as big a hit than if you do
it socially, but there are behaviors you can do to
mimic it.
Krutika Adatia (20:40):
Well, it's great to know that you've mentioned things like
eating a tub of ice cream might just help me.
Maybe avoid eating much of the ice cream, but also exercise. I know
that's something that can be great. And certainly, for me,
when I was studying and I was stuck on a
problem, I often found that just going out for a
walk near the local park helped. And that walking is
a great form of exercise as well, isn't it?
Anna Machin (21:00):
It is. No, I find that completely. If I'm stuck
on something, I spend a lot of time writing, and
if I get to a dead end, if I go
for a walk, it's amazing how suddenly everything sort of
clarifies itself. And that is partly the exercise, that's the
oxygenation of the brain and just letting it have a
little rest as well. But it is a lot to
do with the fact that you've produced beta- endorphin, and
that just brings that clarity.
Krutika Adatia (21:18):
Oh, thank you so much. And I feel like I've understood
a lot about myself as well and just the importance
of social connection. So obviously, for some of our students,
they might be with a tuition provider, and when that's
the case, they tend to be in person in a face- to-
face class, as was the situation for me. And so I
was able to build connections that way. But granted, there'll
be students who are also self- studying, and they might
(21:40):
be thinking, " Right, where do I go to form these
connections? How can I get a study buddy?" And yes,
we do have forums, ACCA offers to connect with other
students. You've got things like Facebook pages, but what would
your advice be to these students who are self- studying
and want to find connection with other students?
Anna Machin (22:02):
Well, it sounds like the Facebook page is a good
place to start. So maybe try set up a WhatsApp group. That's
a really good way to introduce yourself, to start to
get to know people. And it's a great way to ask
practical questions. Obviously, that's very easy. But I would say
if you can be brave enough, once you've set up
that WhatsApp group, once you've talked to people on there, if
you can encourage people to have a video call or
(22:23):
even meet up if somebody's nearby, then you really well
be reaping the benefits of having those connections. So maybe
use the WhatsApp group as a jumping- off point to
actually then maybe expand that a bit and get that
sensory experience, and do the video call.
Krutika Adatia (22:38):
So just thinking about students who are working and studying
and might be thinking, " I don't have time for this,"
what would your advice be there?
Anna Machin (22:45):
Okay, if you want to maximize your time and you
want to do it in a short period of time as possible,
be in the same room, be in a group if
you can, and do one of our lovely endorphin- releasing
activities together. Because what we know is, you can do
an activity on your own that produces endorphins, like exercise
or dancing or singing, or whatever that may be. And
it will give you an endorphin hit. And that's lovely.
(23:07):
But the bizarre thing is, as humans, if we do
one of those activities together in what we call synchrony,
that release of endorphins for that whole group is ramped
up 10-20 fold. It's an amazing phenomenon, and it's actually
what bonds groups together. So what I would say is,
if exercise is your thing, go to an exercise class, do
it all together with your friends, you are going to get a massive
(23:28):
hit of beta- endorphin. If that's not your thing, go
out dancing, join a choir, or something like that. Or
even if you've got those 15 minutes and you've come
together as a study group and you're having a cup
of tea or whatever, if you can convince people, either
put something on the radio and sing along to it
or have a bit of a dance around the kitchen
together. I know it sounds silly, but believe me, you
will get this multi- fold increase in beta- endorphin, and
(23:49):
you'll get all the positive effects, but in a really
short period of time.
Krutika Adatia (23:52):
I'm just thinking about learning a TikTok dance over that 15
minutes. Why not? Right?
Anna Machin (23:55):
Why not? Exactly. And then film it.
Krutika Adatia (23:59):
So before we wrap up, just wanted to ask you,
what three strategies do you have to make the most
out of social connections?
Anna Machin (24:05):
I would say make them face- to- face. Okay. Try
to do something in your social connections that's going to
generate a bit of beta- endorphin, a bit of oxytocin,
a bit of dopamine. So if you can have a laugh,
I mean even if it's having to go to a comedy
club together, do that. That's absolutely great. Go and do
exercise together. Go and dancing together. Anything like that, that
(24:27):
produces it. And whilst it's important to be social, obviously
when you are working, it's also important to remember to
be social in your downtime as well. That really truly
relaxing time. And I will also say, if you aren't
a particularly sociable person, and we're not all particularly sociable,
it doesn't have to be with a human. We get
some of the release of some of these chemicals from
(24:47):
your pet dog, or if you've got a cat, hug
your cat. All of these things will produce beta- endorphin.
So if people aren't your thing, then maybe turn to
something nice and warm, and furry.
Krutika Adatia (24:58):
Thank you so much, Anna, for this conversation. That's it from
this episode of On Your Marks. Thank you, Anna, for
talking with me today. For more information about ACCA exams,
you can go to www. accaglobal. com/ exams. See you
next time. I'm Krutika Adatia, and this has been On Your Marks.
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