October 21, 2024 • 23 mins
This week, we’re looking at anxiety.
Whether its last-minute jitters before an exam or a sense of panic when thinking about revision, we all know what it's like to feel anxious. But, what actually is anxiety? Is there any purpose to experiencing it, and how can we manage our fears so they don't get in the way of achieving our goals?
This week, we sit down with therapist and author Joshua Fletcher, also known online as Anxiety Josh. We dig into what's happening in the brain when we're feeling anxious, and techniques and strategies we can all use to help us feel more grounded when it's all getting too much.
This is On Your Marks. Because you’ll never know until you try.
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For more information about ACCA exams, you can go to www. accaglobal.com/exams
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On Your Marks is a Fresh Air Production for ACCA. The Senior Producer is Eva Higginbotham, with support from Sarah Moore. The Executive Producer is Annie Day. The videographer is Yohan Forbes. The Sound Engineer is Basil Oxtoby. The Assistant Producer is Lynnike Swerts. The Marketing Manager is Nik Gandhi.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vox (00:00):
You nervous? level , a week, two weeks before you're getting really nervous.
(00:05):
You're like, oh my God, am I going to fail again? The mindset, I was doubting myself and I got really anxious.
I have emergency cigarettes package in my drawer and I
was like, this is the only one I'm smoking. That's it.
Of course, there's always things you're going to worry about.
Krutika Adatia (00:22):
Any of that resonate? Hello, and welcome back to On
Your Marks from the ACCA. I'm Krutika Adatia and I'm a
chartered accountant. I now support accountancy students through their training.
And in this series I sit down with experts to
look at how we can all better handle whatever life
throws at us, whether we're preparing for our next accountancy
(00:43):
exam or trying to get a good night's sleep while
balancing a tricky workload. Wherever you are at in your
journey towards qualification, On Your Marks is here to help
you tackle the process head on. And we're so delighted
to be back for season two. This week, we're looking
at anxiety. We all get anxious sometimes, but how do
we know when it's time to seek help? Why do
(01:06):
we evolve to have anxiety in the first place, and
what techniques can help us or manage anxiety a little
better? This is On Your Marks, because you'll never know until
you try. As an educator, I hear it all the time. Accountancy
students are often dealing with a lot of anxiety whilst
preparing for and sitting their exams. For me, anxiety is
(01:29):
like this persistent little voice in the back of my
mind and it tends to get louder in certain situations.
I really notice it before important work meetings, when I'm
in new environments, and especially the first time I recorded
this podcast. I remember it being particularly overwhelming during exam
periods, especially during the equivalent strategic professional stage. Balancing a
(01:51):
busy workload with studying felt like too much at times.
I was constantly worried I wasn't studying enough and terrified
that I'd blank out in the exam hall. I think
many of you might be able to relate to that
feeling. To chat it all through, I've got Joshua Fletcher
here. He's a therapist and author and an expert on
anxiety. In fact, online he's known as Anxiety Josh. Josh,
(02:15):
what actually is anxiety?
Joshua Fletcher (02:17):
Thanks for having me on. Anxiety, yeah, it's a broad
subject. To understand it, it's the mind and body's threat
response. There's a part of our brain called the amygdala,
which is shaped like an almond. And the amygdala is
the oldest, fastest, and dumbest parts of our brain. When
it senses threat, whether a real threat or a perceived
(02:38):
threat or maybe an imaginary threat, it releases adrenaline and
cortisol and we feel anxiety. When we feel nervous, on
edge, maybe we've got racing thoughts, intrusive thoughts, when we're
ruminating, catastrophizing, when we're worried about something, maybe we're even
having something as severe a panic attack, that is anxiety.
(03:01):
It's the threat response. The level of anxiety is dependent
on the mind and body's decision to gauge the threat.
You've got conventional anxiety, so if you're worried about exams,
that would be classed as conventional anxiety, because people can
relate to exam stress. Whether you're worried about driving test,
(03:22):
maybe the dentist wants to rip your molars out, maybe
you've got issues going on in your life, that kind
of conventional anxiety is the mind and body's threat response.
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in working with anxiety and
anxiety disorders. When you look at anxiety from a disorder
(03:43):
point of view, which basically means inwards, things aren't in
the right place, I look at the kind of anxiety
that we also don't really speak about, so people who
struggle with panic attacks, agoraphobia, intrusive thoughts, health anxiety, monophobia,
social anxiety, these different types of anxiety. To answer the question, "
(04:06):
What is anxiety?", I usually split it into two. It's
your mind's threat response, is it focusing on conventional threat
or has it gone inwards and we're struggling with chronic anxiety?
Krutika Adatia (04:18):
Thank you for that explanation, Josh. I just want to
touch on a couple of things that you've mentioned. You
touched on words like nerves and worry. You also mentioned
cortisol release which, I mean, certainly I associate with stress.
There's sometimes tendencies to maybe use interchangeable terminology as well.
Is there a distinction between anxiety and stress and nerves
(04:40):
and worry, or are they all under the same umbrella?
Joshua Fletcher (04:44):
I think stress and anxiety are different. I think anxiety is exacerbated by stress,
particularly accumulated stress. If you're someone who's got a lot
on, maybe you're studying for exams, maybe you got lots going
on in your personal life, maybe you're processing things that
have happened in the past, maybe you're grieving, maybe you're
(05:04):
struggling to pay the rent or the mortgage, these stressful
things can build up. And when they accumulate, can make
us feel anxious because the brain's threat response tries to
kick in. It doesn't understand subjective stress, because again, it's
the oldest part of our brain. Our ancestors used it
to full effect. But in the modern day, when we're
(05:28):
really stressed with all these things, sometimes anxiety can make
things even worse. Also, you can reframe that though, but
anxiety sometimes is a message to you to say, maybe
the way I'm living at the moment isn't currently sustainable,
maybe I can't keep living with this level of stress,
maybe this is a warning sign, a helpful warning sign
(05:49):
say, where can I put the foot on the brake
a bit and take a look at my life and
address the stress that's currently in it?
Krutika Adatia (05:58):
You mentioned that anxiety is a threat response. How common
is it amongst individuals? Is it something that everyone experiences?
Joshua Fletcher (06:09):
Everyone gets anxiety. It's a very healthy, normal emotion. It's a
very normal thing that the body does. When it becomes
chronic and excessive, that's when you need to intervene and
change things. But we all get anxiety and we all have
that threat response. Some people like the threat response, so
they're called... What's the term?... adrenaline junkies. People watch scary
(06:33):
films. They go on roller coasters. They like to push
themselves and put themselves in scary situations. It's the same
thing, it's the threat response. But that's the very same
threat response to someone who's perhaps at home worrying over
catastrophic thoughts and scenarios. It just depends how it presents
in our relationship with it. I'm someone who struggled really
(06:53):
badly with anxiety years ago, couldn't leave the house, was
very monophobic, had panic attacks, diagnosed with panic disorder and
OCD. And a lot of that was down to my
relationship with this threat response, the anxiety. I was scared
of anxiety itself, this fear of fear, and didn't quite
understand it. Now I'm okay. I still get anxiety. Lots
(07:17):
of people are like, "How do you get rid of anxiety?" No, we don't get
rid of it, but we calm it down so it
functions like it should do.
Krutika Adatia (07:24):
Thank you so much for candidly sharing your experiences with
it. I guess we'll touch on this a bit more
later, but seeing as you've mentioned it, how did you
overcome anxiety? I know you say you still deal with
it, but was there something that helped you in particular
to manage it?
Joshua Fletcher (07:41):
Yeah. One of the main things that helped me with my
anxiety is understanding what was going on in my mind
and body, because I thought I was going crazy. One
morning, when anxiety really kicked in, I was making a
cup of tea at work and suddenly everything felt strange
and looked strange. I was experiencing a symptom called dissociation
(08:03):
and it really scared me. I didn't know what was going
on. And then my heart started racing, palpitating. I just
felt the sudden sense that something awful was going to
happen. My chest hurt, and I just felt like I
needed to escape where I was. That was my first-
ever panic attack. My thoughts were racing. I thought I
(08:23):
was going crazy. I thought I was going to die, basically.
I became agoraphobic, so I wouldn't leave my house because
I thought that was my safe zone. Or when I
did leave, I could only go to specific areas. I
struggled with intrusive thoughts, wrestled with them, ruminated, constantly searched
for reassurance, and basically tried to work out what was
(08:47):
wrong with me, and I didn't understand. The doctor didn't help
at the time and I was in a really lonely place. I
got better through psychoeducation and through the correct therapy as
well, and just understanding what my brain was doing, understanding that
the thoughts are there because the threat response is trying
to suggest what the danger is. Learning I have agency
(09:08):
with thoughts, you can choose to engage with what thoughts
are important to you or not. Realizing I wasn't made
of glass. Anxious people feel very vulnerable. A lot about
overcoming anxiety is realizing you can tolerate more than you
think. And emptying out my stress jug. I was going
(09:29):
through a lot and talking about it, going to therapy,
opening up to friends. Things like that really helped to
calm the anxiety and the threat response down.
Krutika Adatia (09:38):
That's really useful to know that the education piece really
helped you, Would you say that for our listeners, for
example, who might be sitting exams and feeling anxious ahead
of exams, that just understanding the emotion of anxiety could
potentially help them manage it better?
Joshua Fletcher (09:55):
Understanding what it is, yes. I mean, it's still uncomfortable,
but you take away the mystery of anxiety. You can
still function with anxiety, but use that as a signal
for what you do next. If you're really stressed, particularly
if you're struggling with conventional anxiety and it's exam time,
that's a sign to say, right, take a step back for
(10:17):
a second. The really hardworking, perfectionist people... Perfectionism's another form
of anxiety as well... they'll struggle to say no or
stop. They'll keep pushing themselves and then they'll be teetering
on burnout. Whereas listen to your mind and body. If
your heart's palpitating at three in the morning, you're tossing
(10:37):
and turning, you can't sleep, you can't eat, your appetite's
gone, you feel nauseous, maybe listen to that for a bit,
to take a step back and give yourself permission to
be like, okay, am I allowed some me time now? I'm allowed
to put in some boundaries with my work, with my
studies, to allow my body and my nervous system to
come back to a stay- at- homeostasis.
Krutika Adatia (10:57):
Just thinking about our students who are probably starting off
and thinking, gosh, I've got 9 or 13 exams, depending
on where they're starting, that's a long way to go,
a lot of stress that they might have to take
on, and anxiety. What might you say to that particular listener?
Joshua Fletcher (11:13):
I'd say not only are you learning the skills required for your exams and for
your profession, but you're also learning skills like resilience. And
if you're going to go through that many exams, you
will learn bit by bit, and realizing that with each
one you'll become more resilient. You'll also teach the brain
and the threat response, actually, this situation is safe. Yes,
(11:35):
the pressure's on and it's good to have a bit
of anxiety for this, because anxiety's performance enhancing, it can
be anyway, to an extent, but you'll learn to get
better at it, so one at a time. Let's do the first
one, see how we go, then do the second one.
You might hit hurdles. I know my mate, when he
did his exams, he failed a few, but he got back
on the horse and passed them. Go easy and realize
(12:00):
I'm also building my resilience.
Krutika Adatia (12:02):
When I was studying, I would have a lot of
negative chatter in my mind when I was going through
the exams, the, " I should be doing this.", or, " I
can't do this, I don't think I will succeed." How
can we go about actually silencing that negative chatter? Is
it even possible?
Joshua Fletcher (12:19):
Understanding it helps it to appear quieter. Understanding your own internal
narrative is important. That's why I love therapy. I became
a therapist because I realized the power of understanding where
negative internal dialogues come from and stuff. I still see
a counselor now. It's great. I treat it like going to
the gym, look after my brain. You can show off
(12:39):
on Instagram and going to the gym, but if you've
got this internal chatter like, " You should be doing this,
you're going to fail.", or whatever, that's learned. Where'd you
learn that from? Are you being compared to successful siblings? Are
your parents trying to live vicariously through you? Do you
have an absent parent, so you put a lot of
pressure on yourself to succeed and feel worthy? Maybe you
(13:03):
compare yourself to your friends or something. I don't know. Maybe your partner
ran off with a really cool chartered accountant who passed
the exams first time. Look at where that internal dialogue
comes from. I get it now and then, and I'm just
like, no. Sometimes there's echoes from the past. Sometimes it's
just me being hard on myself. But you don't need
(13:25):
to engage with it. That's the thing. You can't turn
it off. You can't stop thoughts and you can't stop
internal dialogue, but you can choose to engage with it
or not. I say, " Okay, if you want to chat
today." And the same with intrusive thoughts pop into your head, "
All right, you've decided to pop in, have you? Well,
not bothered. My attention's over here. I'm not going to
force you away, but leave quietly when you're ready." Because
(13:49):
what you resist, persists, so then you can't get rid
of them, which is really something I learned the hard way
Krutika Adatia (13:55):
I know earlier you mentioned what helps is seeing a
counselor or speaking with a therapist, but I'm also thinking
about some of our listeners who might not always have access to
things like that or perhaps don't even realize that they
have some sort of chronic anxiety. I'm Indian by culture
and in my culture, for example, we don't really talk
(14:17):
about emotions as much. Perhaps more so now certainly, but
it's something that we just brush under the carpet. I'm
just thinking someone from a particular community or a society,
they may not have the cognizance to actually recognize that
they're experiencing some sort of chronic anxiety. At what point
(14:40):
do we know that we ought to seek help? How
do we realize that for ourselves?
Joshua Fletcher (14:45):
To seek help for yourself, whether it's reaching out to
other people or if you're a very private person, help
can also be self- help. But you're right, emotional conservatism
can be very cultural. Depending on your background, where you
live, the community you're in, it could be an absolute no-
(15:06):
no, I wouldn't know how to do that. But, you
can talk to people professionally. And if worst comes to
worst, just read up about it, read up on it,
find the experts and stuff, look at the good self-
help things, learn about your brain. That's the kind thing
to do to yourself. And then, if you feel a
bit more informed and you might even feel a bit
(15:29):
braver, to look at maybe then seeking help. If you've
got a trusted friend to talk to, if you're lucky
enough to have that, that can be helpful too, and
just not keeping it to yourself. Trying to bury it
out of shame doesn't work. I've tried it. It doesn't work.
Your stress jug stays very full.
Krutika Adatia (15:50):
I guess the next question I wanted to ask you
is, we've spoken about the thoughts, feelings, sensations around anxiety,
but how does anxiety impact things like your sleep and
your diet and your nutrition? Is there any implications that
we see on those factors as a result of anxiety?
Joshua Fletcher (16:09):
Anxious people, their appetites will either increase or decrease and
it might affect the foods that they want to eat.
It's very common for anxious people to go towards sugary
foods and carb- heavy foods, because to replenish the energy
and because of blood sugar shifts and stuff. I'm not
one of those anxiety gurus that pours attention into nutrition
(16:32):
and stuff like that. Because it can be compulsive, and
actually if you're a perfectionist, you start to try to
fix yourself. There's a lot of that in my field.
I like going round and appearing really self- righteous by saying, "
You don't need thrice- fermented kimchi to feel better. You
need to understand that you are the coping technique with your anxiety and
(16:54):
identify the hurdles from stopping you realizing that."
Krutika Adatia (16:57):
And you know what? I can relate to a bit of
that, because I feel I can be a bit of a perfectionist sometimes, trying
to get everything in order and... Yeah, so I
totally relate to that. Josh, what about exercise when it
comes to dealing with anxiety? I've heard that that sometimes
helps to calm yourself.
Joshua Fletcher (17:14):
I think exercise is good for when you're stressed. And
if you are feeling a bit anxious, exercise is a good way to
burn the excess adrenaline and cortisol that's pumping around. But
it comes with a pre- warning. It depends on your
relationship with exercise. If you are exercising compulsively to run
(17:35):
away from a feeling, then I would look at that.
So, it depends on your relationship with it. Obviously exercise is good,
fills the brain with serotonin and dopamine, of course. But
I'm just concerned about people. If you're on the verge
of burnout, maybe doing two hours in the gym isn't
(17:55):
the correct thing to do, maybe something slow paced, maybe
something sedentary. I mean, I go to the gym most days, but some
days I tune into my body, that's probably not a
good idea today. In general, exercise is great, stress- busting
stuff, good mood balancer, and a good way to burn
(18:16):
through that adrenaline and cortisol. But don't do it when
you're running on fumes.
Krutika Adatia (18:22):
In terms of one of my final questions that I
wanted to ask you is around the strategies and techniques
that students can use specifically around exam time or when
it's revision period for managing their anxiety and keeping it
at bay. I know you've alluded to a few things
already, but if you could summarize that for us.
Joshua Fletcher (18:41):
If you are struggling with anxiety now and listening to this, just
identify what type of anxiety it is. I think it's really important. If you're conventionally
anxious and you're worried about things external from you, so
I'm worried about the result of this exam, I'm worried
about finances, I'm just worried about things around me in
my life, then my advice to you is notice that... Okay,
(19:04):
take a step back, be kind to yourself, and be like, right,
I'm not going to try and solve all this through
the lens of worry and threat. Because it doesn't work.
It's like googling a headache while you're anxious, never ends well.
You're planning your funeral two days later because you're not
seeing it rationally. I'd say, take a step back, zone
(19:26):
out for a bit. Commit your attention and focus to
something that's wholesome for you. For me, in the middle
of writing books and stuff, when I really was under
the pressure of deadlines, I actually just had to have
a day off where I didn't do anything. Even though
the deadline was looming, I was like, no, because I'm
going to burn out. So, I just sat in a dark
(19:47):
room and played PlayStation. But it's what works for you.
Some people are like, " You know what? I'm just going to
go for a nice walk in nature.", or, " I'm going
to see a friend.", and things like that. Vocalize it.
I do love the jug analogy, which is, I can
feel this stress building up there. What can I do
for me to empty my stress jug? And your stress is your stress.
(20:09):
I wish I could say, stand on your head, deep breathe,
box breathe, whatever, do all these things like everyone else does.
I've done them all. Yes, it helps. Being mindful and
meditative when you're stressed is really helpful. Try not to
do it in reaction, try to do it as preventative.
But try not to immerse yourself in the stress, and
(20:31):
learn to give yourself permission to take a step back.
It doesn't have to be as consuming as you think.
Learn that you are more capable of tolerating things than
you believe. Obviously, if you can, talk to someone. You
can always talk to your doctor and things like that,
or a trusted person. Definitely, let your doctor know. And
(20:52):
learn about how your anxiety presents because, actually, the approach
for different anxieties is different. It varies. I often get
asked on newspaper and radio and all that, " Number one anxiety-
busting technique?" And I'm like, " It depends on your anxiety."
Krutika Adatia (21:08):
That's really well put, because it will be individual to
everyone. Thank you, Josh, and I know you've said some great
things already, but if there were three things you want
listeners to take away from our conversation today, what would
those top three things be?
Joshua Fletcher (21:24):
Number one is, you are the coping technique, so trying
to find them. Because for the brain to wire, to
switch off the threat response, it has to believe that
you are the one that can cope with it. Don't
get me wrong, ask for help and learn and get
there and remove the hurdles, but try not to waste
(21:45):
your time trying to find things external from you to
help a belief that you can function. You can function,
and learn that. I always say that, particularly people with
panic attacks and excessive anxiety. Step two is, go easy
on yourself. If you're already stressed and you're feeling anxious,
less is more. Go easy. You're going to hear that
(22:08):
inner critic, just let them chat, you don't need to
engage. Number three, stop comparing. It's okay. Don't compare yourself
to others. You'll get there in your own way. Your
value is not dictated on your output. Your value is
holistic. You have multiple facets of yourself. Doing exams and
(22:32):
studying to be an accountant of things are just one
facet of what I presume would be an amazing self.
Krutika Adatia (22:39):
Thank you, Josh. I'm so glad you said the last
one. I'm referencing a quote here that I've read, " Comparison
is the thief of all joy.", so I like that
one. That was really insightful. Where can our listeners get
more information about you and your work?
Joshua Fletcher (22:53):
I'm Joshua Fletcher, or Anxiety Josh on social media. I
write books and I have my own anxiety self- help
podcast called Disordered. Feel free to go check it out. My
website is schoolofanxiety. com. Which is a school for anxious
people, it's not, it was a silly name, but I stuck by it.
Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it.
Krutika Adatia (23:12):
That's it from this episode of On Your Marks. Thank you,
Josh, for chatting with me today. For more information about
ACCA exams, you can go to www. accaglobal. com/ exams.
And to watch the video version of this podcast, check
out the link in the show notes. I'm Krutika Adatia and this has
(23:33):
been On Your Marks. On Your Marks is a Fresh
Air Production for ACCA. Its lead producer is Eva Higginbotham
and its executive producer is Annie Day. The videographer is
Yohan Forbes and the sound engineer is Basil Oxtoby. See
you next time.
You nervous? level , a week, two weeks before you're getting really nervous.
(00:05):
You're like, oh my God, am I going to fail again? The mindset, I was doubting myself and I got really anxious.
I have emergency cigarettes package in my drawer and I
was like, this is the only one I'm smoking. That's it.
Of course, there's always things you're going to worry about.
Krutika Adatia (00:22):
Any of that resonate? Hello, and welcome back to On
Your Marks from the ACCA. I'm Krutika Adatia and I'm a
chartered accountant. I now support accountancy students through their training.
And in this series I sit down with experts to
look at how we can all better handle whatever life
throws at us, whether we're preparing for our next accountancy
(00:43):
exam or trying to get a good night's sleep while
balancing a tricky workload. Wherever you are at in your
journey towards qualification, On Your Marks is here to help
you tackle the process head on. And we're so delighted
to be back for season two. This week, we're looking
at anxiety. We all get anxious sometimes, but how do
we know when it's time to seek help? Why do
(01:06):
we evolve to have anxiety in the first place, and
what techniques can help us or manage anxiety a little
better? This is On Your Marks, because you'll never know until
you try. As an educator, I hear it all the time. Accountancy
students are often dealing with a lot of anxiety whilst
preparing for and sitting their exams. For me, anxiety is
(01:29):
like this persistent little voice in the back of my
mind and it tends to get louder in certain situations.
I really notice it before important work meetings, when I'm
in new environments, and especially the first time I recorded
this podcast. I remember it being particularly overwhelming during exam
periods, especially during the equivalent strategic professional stage. Balancing a
(01:51):
busy workload with studying felt like too much at times.
I was constantly worried I wasn't studying enough and terrified
that I'd blank out in the exam hall. I think
many of you might be able to relate to that
feeling. To chat it all through, I've got Joshua Fletcher
here. He's a therapist and author and an expert on
anxiety. In fact, online he's known as Anxiety Josh. Josh,
(02:15):
what actually is anxiety?
Joshua Fletcher (02:17):
Thanks for having me on. Anxiety, yeah, it's a broad
subject. To understand it, it's the mind and body's threat
response. There's a part of our brain called the amygdala,
which is shaped like an almond. And the amygdala is
the oldest, fastest, and dumbest parts of our brain. When
it senses threat, whether a real threat or a perceived
(02:38):
threat or maybe an imaginary threat, it releases adrenaline and
cortisol and we feel anxiety. When we feel nervous, on
edge, maybe we've got racing thoughts, intrusive thoughts, when we're
ruminating, catastrophizing, when we're worried about something, maybe we're even
having something as severe a panic attack, that is anxiety.
(03:01):
It's the threat response. The level of anxiety is dependent
on the mind and body's decision to gauge the threat.
You've got conventional anxiety, so if you're worried about exams,
that would be classed as conventional anxiety, because people can
relate to exam stress. Whether you're worried about driving test,
(03:22):
maybe the dentist wants to rip your molars out, maybe
you've got issues going on in your life, that kind
of conventional anxiety is the mind and body's threat response.
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in working with anxiety and
anxiety disorders. When you look at anxiety from a disorder
(03:43):
point of view, which basically means inwards, things aren't in
the right place, I look at the kind of anxiety
that we also don't really speak about, so people who
struggle with panic attacks, agoraphobia, intrusive thoughts, health anxiety, monophobia,
social anxiety, these different types of anxiety. To answer the question, "
(04:06):
What is anxiety?", I usually split it into two. It's
your mind's threat response, is it focusing on conventional threat
or has it gone inwards and we're struggling with chronic anxiety?
Krutika Adatia (04:18):
Thank you for that explanation, Josh. I just want to
touch on a couple of things that you've mentioned. You
touched on words like nerves and worry. You also mentioned
cortisol release which, I mean, certainly I associate with stress.
There's sometimes tendencies to maybe use interchangeable terminology as well.
Is there a distinction between anxiety and stress and nerves
(04:40):
and worry, or are they all under the same umbrella?
Joshua Fletcher (04:44):
I think stress and anxiety are different. I think anxiety is exacerbated by stress,
particularly accumulated stress. If you're someone who's got a lot
on, maybe you're studying for exams, maybe you got lots going
on in your personal life, maybe you're processing things that
have happened in the past, maybe you're grieving, maybe you're
(05:04):
struggling to pay the rent or the mortgage, these stressful
things can build up. And when they accumulate, can make
us feel anxious because the brain's threat response tries to
kick in. It doesn't understand subjective stress, because again, it's
the oldest part of our brain. Our ancestors used it
to full effect. But in the modern day, when we're
(05:28):
really stressed with all these things, sometimes anxiety can make
things even worse. Also, you can reframe that though, but
anxiety sometimes is a message to you to say, maybe
the way I'm living at the moment isn't currently sustainable,
maybe I can't keep living with this level of stress,
maybe this is a warning sign, a helpful warning sign
(05:49):
say, where can I put the foot on the brake
a bit and take a look at my life and
address the stress that's currently in it?
Krutika Adatia (05:58):
You mentioned that anxiety is a threat response. How common
is it amongst individuals? Is it something that everyone experiences?
Joshua Fletcher (06:09):
Everyone gets anxiety. It's a very healthy, normal emotion. It's a
very normal thing that the body does. When it becomes
chronic and excessive, that's when you need to intervene and
change things. But we all get anxiety and we all have
that threat response. Some people like the threat response, so
they're called... What's the term?... adrenaline junkies. People watch scary
(06:33):
films. They go on roller coasters. They like to push
themselves and put themselves in scary situations. It's the same
thing, it's the threat response. But that's the very same
threat response to someone who's perhaps at home worrying over
catastrophic thoughts and scenarios. It just depends how it presents
in our relationship with it. I'm someone who struggled really
(06:53):
badly with anxiety years ago, couldn't leave the house, was
very monophobic, had panic attacks, diagnosed with panic disorder and
OCD. And a lot of that was down to my
relationship with this threat response, the anxiety. I was scared
of anxiety itself, this fear of fear, and didn't quite
understand it. Now I'm okay. I still get anxiety. Lots
(07:17):
of people are like, "How do you get rid of anxiety?" No, we don't get
rid of it, but we calm it down so it
functions like it should do.
Krutika Adatia (07:24):
Thank you so much for candidly sharing your experiences with
it. I guess we'll touch on this a bit more
later, but seeing as you've mentioned it, how did you
overcome anxiety? I know you say you still deal with
it, but was there something that helped you in particular
to manage it?
Joshua Fletcher (07:41):
Yeah. One of the main things that helped me with my
anxiety is understanding what was going on in my mind
and body, because I thought I was going crazy. One
morning, when anxiety really kicked in, I was making a
cup of tea at work and suddenly everything felt strange
and looked strange. I was experiencing a symptom called dissociation
(08:03):
and it really scared me. I didn't know what was going
on. And then my heart started racing, palpitating. I just
felt the sudden sense that something awful was going to
happen. My chest hurt, and I just felt like I
needed to escape where I was. That was my first-
ever panic attack. My thoughts were racing. I thought I
(08:23):
was going crazy. I thought I was going to die, basically.
I became agoraphobic, so I wouldn't leave my house because
I thought that was my safe zone. Or when I
did leave, I could only go to specific areas. I
struggled with intrusive thoughts, wrestled with them, ruminated, constantly searched
for reassurance, and basically tried to work out what was
(08:47):
wrong with me, and I didn't understand. The doctor didn't help
at the time and I was in a really lonely place. I
got better through psychoeducation and through the correct therapy as
well, and just understanding what my brain was doing, understanding that
the thoughts are there because the threat response is trying
to suggest what the danger is. Learning I have agency
(09:08):
with thoughts, you can choose to engage with what thoughts
are important to you or not. Realizing I wasn't made
of glass. Anxious people feel very vulnerable. A lot about
overcoming anxiety is realizing you can tolerate more than you
think. And emptying out my stress jug. I was going
(09:29):
through a lot and talking about it, going to therapy,
opening up to friends. Things like that really helped to
calm the anxiety and the threat response down.
Krutika Adatia (09:38):
That's really useful to know that the education piece really
helped you, Would you say that for our listeners, for
example, who might be sitting exams and feeling anxious ahead
of exams, that just understanding the emotion of anxiety could
potentially help them manage it better?
Joshua Fletcher (09:55):
Understanding what it is, yes. I mean, it's still uncomfortable,
but you take away the mystery of anxiety. You can
still function with anxiety, but use that as a signal
for what you do next. If you're really stressed, particularly
if you're struggling with conventional anxiety and it's exam time,
that's a sign to say, right, take a step back for
(10:17):
a second. The really hardworking, perfectionist people... Perfectionism's another form
of anxiety as well... they'll struggle to say no or
stop. They'll keep pushing themselves and then they'll be teetering
on burnout. Whereas listen to your mind and body. If
your heart's palpitating at three in the morning, you're tossing
(10:37):
and turning, you can't sleep, you can't eat, your appetite's
gone, you feel nauseous, maybe listen to that for a bit,
to take a step back and give yourself permission to
be like, okay, am I allowed some me time now? I'm allowed
to put in some boundaries with my work, with my
studies, to allow my body and my nervous system to
come back to a stay- at- homeostasis.
Krutika Adatia (10:57):
Just thinking about our students who are probably starting off
and thinking, gosh, I've got 9 or 13 exams, depending
on where they're starting, that's a long way to go,
a lot of stress that they might have to take
on, and anxiety. What might you say to that particular listener?
Joshua Fletcher (11:13):
I'd say not only are you learning the skills required for your exams and for
your profession, but you're also learning skills like resilience. And
if you're going to go through that many exams, you
will learn bit by bit, and realizing that with each
one you'll become more resilient. You'll also teach the brain
and the threat response, actually, this situation is safe. Yes,
(11:35):
the pressure's on and it's good to have a bit
of anxiety for this, because anxiety's performance enhancing, it can
be anyway, to an extent, but you'll learn to get
better at it, so one at a time. Let's do the first
one, see how we go, then do the second one.
You might hit hurdles. I know my mate, when he
did his exams, he failed a few, but he got back
on the horse and passed them. Go easy and realize
(12:00):
I'm also building my resilience.
Krutika Adatia (12:02):
When I was studying, I would have a lot of
negative chatter in my mind when I was going through
the exams, the, " I should be doing this.", or, " I
can't do this, I don't think I will succeed." How
can we go about actually silencing that negative chatter? Is
it even possible?
Joshua Fletcher (12:19):
Understanding it helps it to appear quieter. Understanding your own internal
narrative is important. That's why I love therapy. I became
a therapist because I realized the power of understanding where
negative internal dialogues come from and stuff. I still see
a counselor now. It's great. I treat it like going to
the gym, look after my brain. You can show off
(12:39):
on Instagram and going to the gym, but if you've
got this internal chatter like, " You should be doing this,
you're going to fail.", or whatever, that's learned. Where'd you
learn that from? Are you being compared to successful siblings? Are
your parents trying to live vicariously through you? Do you
have an absent parent, so you put a lot of
pressure on yourself to succeed and feel worthy? Maybe you
(13:03):
compare yourself to your friends or something. I don't know. Maybe your partner
ran off with a really cool chartered accountant who passed
the exams first time. Look at where that internal dialogue
comes from. I get it now and then, and I'm just
like, no. Sometimes there's echoes from the past. Sometimes it's
just me being hard on myself. But you don't need
(13:25):
to engage with it. That's the thing. You can't turn
it off. You can't stop thoughts and you can't stop
internal dialogue, but you can choose to engage with it
or not. I say, " Okay, if you want to chat
today." And the same with intrusive thoughts pop into your head, "
All right, you've decided to pop in, have you? Well,
not bothered. My attention's over here. I'm not going to
force you away, but leave quietly when you're ready." Because
(13:49):
what you resist, persists, so then you can't get rid
of them, which is really something I learned the hard way
Krutika Adatia (13:55):
I know earlier you mentioned what helps is seeing a
counselor or speaking with a therapist, but I'm also thinking
about some of our listeners who might not always have access to
things like that or perhaps don't even realize that they
have some sort of chronic anxiety. I'm Indian by culture
and in my culture, for example, we don't really talk
(14:17):
about emotions as much. Perhaps more so now certainly, but
it's something that we just brush under the carpet. I'm
just thinking someone from a particular community or a society,
they may not have the cognizance to actually recognize that
they're experiencing some sort of chronic anxiety. At what point
(14:40):
do we know that we ought to seek help? How
do we realize that for ourselves?
Joshua Fletcher (14:45):
To seek help for yourself, whether it's reaching out to
other people or if you're a very private person, help
can also be self- help. But you're right, emotional conservatism
can be very cultural. Depending on your background, where you
live, the community you're in, it could be an absolute no-
(15:06):
no, I wouldn't know how to do that. But, you
can talk to people professionally. And if worst comes to
worst, just read up about it, read up on it,
find the experts and stuff, look at the good self-
help things, learn about your brain. That's the kind thing
to do to yourself. And then, if you feel a
bit more informed and you might even feel a bit
(15:29):
braver, to look at maybe then seeking help. If you've
got a trusted friend to talk to, if you're lucky
enough to have that, that can be helpful too, and
just not keeping it to yourself. Trying to bury it
out of shame doesn't work. I've tried it. It doesn't work.
Your stress jug stays very full.
Krutika Adatia (15:50):
I guess the next question I wanted to ask you
is, we've spoken about the thoughts, feelings, sensations around anxiety,
but how does anxiety impact things like your sleep and
your diet and your nutrition? Is there any implications that
we see on those factors as a result of anxiety?
Joshua Fletcher (16:09):
Anxious people, their appetites will either increase or decrease and
it might affect the foods that they want to eat.
It's very common for anxious people to go towards sugary
foods and carb- heavy foods, because to replenish the energy
and because of blood sugar shifts and stuff. I'm not
one of those anxiety gurus that pours attention into nutrition
(16:32):
and stuff like that. Because it can be compulsive, and
actually if you're a perfectionist, you start to try to
fix yourself. There's a lot of that in my field.
I like going round and appearing really self- righteous by saying, "
You don't need thrice- fermented kimchi to feel better. You
need to understand that you are the coping technique with your anxiety and
(16:54):
identify the hurdles from stopping you realizing that."
Krutika Adatia (16:57):
And you know what? I can relate to a bit of
that, because I feel I can be a bit of a perfectionist sometimes, trying
to get everything in order and... Yeah, so I
totally relate to that. Josh, what about exercise when it
comes to dealing with anxiety? I've heard that that sometimes
helps to calm yourself.
Joshua Fletcher (17:14):
I think exercise is good for when you're stressed. And
if you are feeling a bit anxious, exercise is a good way to
burn the excess adrenaline and cortisol that's pumping around. But
it comes with a pre- warning. It depends on your
relationship with exercise. If you are exercising compulsively to run
(17:35):
away from a feeling, then I would look at that.
So, it depends on your relationship with it. Obviously exercise is good,
fills the brain with serotonin and dopamine, of course. But
I'm just concerned about people. If you're on the verge
of burnout, maybe doing two hours in the gym isn't
(17:55):
the correct thing to do, maybe something slow paced, maybe
something sedentary. I mean, I go to the gym most days, but some
days I tune into my body, that's probably not a
good idea today. In general, exercise is great, stress- busting
stuff, good mood balancer, and a good way to burn
(18:16):
through that adrenaline and cortisol. But don't do it when
you're running on fumes.
Krutika Adatia (18:22):
In terms of one of my final questions that I
wanted to ask you is around the strategies and techniques
that students can use specifically around exam time or when
it's revision period for managing their anxiety and keeping it
at bay. I know you've alluded to a few things
already, but if you could summarize that for us.
Joshua Fletcher (18:41):
If you are struggling with anxiety now and listening to this, just
identify what type of anxiety it is. I think it's really important. If you're conventionally
anxious and you're worried about things external from you, so
I'm worried about the result of this exam, I'm worried
about finances, I'm just worried about things around me in
my life, then my advice to you is notice that... Okay,
(19:04):
take a step back, be kind to yourself, and be like, right,
I'm not going to try and solve all this through
the lens of worry and threat. Because it doesn't work.
It's like googling a headache while you're anxious, never ends well.
You're planning your funeral two days later because you're not
seeing it rationally. I'd say, take a step back, zone
(19:26):
out for a bit. Commit your attention and focus to
something that's wholesome for you. For me, in the middle
of writing books and stuff, when I really was under
the pressure of deadlines, I actually just had to have
a day off where I didn't do anything. Even though
the deadline was looming, I was like, no, because I'm
going to burn out. So, I just sat in a dark
(19:47):
room and played PlayStation. But it's what works for you.
Some people are like, " You know what? I'm just going to
go for a nice walk in nature.", or, " I'm going
to see a friend.", and things like that. Vocalize it.
I do love the jug analogy, which is, I can
feel this stress building up there. What can I do
for me to empty my stress jug? And your stress is your stress.
(20:09):
I wish I could say, stand on your head, deep breathe,
box breathe, whatever, do all these things like everyone else does.
I've done them all. Yes, it helps. Being mindful and
meditative when you're stressed is really helpful. Try not to
do it in reaction, try to do it as preventative.
But try not to immerse yourself in the stress, and
(20:31):
learn to give yourself permission to take a step back.
It doesn't have to be as consuming as you think.
Learn that you are more capable of tolerating things than
you believe. Obviously, if you can, talk to someone. You
can always talk to your doctor and things like that,
or a trusted person. Definitely, let your doctor know. And
(20:52):
learn about how your anxiety presents because, actually, the approach
for different anxieties is different. It varies. I often get
asked on newspaper and radio and all that, " Number one anxiety-
busting technique?" And I'm like, " It depends on your anxiety."
Krutika Adatia (21:08):
That's really well put, because it will be individual to
everyone. Thank you, Josh, and I know you've said some great
things already, but if there were three things you want
listeners to take away from our conversation today, what would
those top three things be?
Joshua Fletcher (21:24):
Number one is, you are the coping technique, so trying
to find them. Because for the brain to wire, to
switch off the threat response, it has to believe that
you are the one that can cope with it. Don't
get me wrong, ask for help and learn and get
there and remove the hurdles, but try not to waste
(21:45):
your time trying to find things external from you to
help a belief that you can function. You can function,
and learn that. I always say that, particularly people with
panic attacks and excessive anxiety. Step two is, go easy
on yourself. If you're already stressed and you're feeling anxious,
less is more. Go easy. You're going to hear that
(22:08):
inner critic, just let them chat, you don't need to
engage. Number three, stop comparing. It's okay. Don't compare yourself
to others. You'll get there in your own way. Your
value is not dictated on your output. Your value is
holistic. You have multiple facets of yourself. Doing exams and
(22:32):
studying to be an accountant of things are just one
facet of what I presume would be an amazing self.
Krutika Adatia (22:39):
Thank you, Josh. I'm so glad you said the last
one. I'm referencing a quote here that I've read, " Comparison
is the thief of all joy.", so I like that
one. That was really insightful. Where can our listeners get
more information about you and your work?
Joshua Fletcher (22:53):
I'm Joshua Fletcher, or Anxiety Josh on social media. I
write books and I have my own anxiety self- help
podcast called Disordered. Feel free to go check it out. My
website is schoolofanxiety. com. Which is a school for anxious
people, it's not, it was a silly name, but I stuck by it.
Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it.
Krutika Adatia (23:12):
That's it from this episode of On Your Marks. Thank you,
Josh, for chatting with me today. For more information about
ACCA exams, you can go to www. accaglobal. com/ exams.
And to watch the video version of this podcast, check
out the link in the show notes. I'm Krutika Adatia and this has
(23:33):
been On Your Marks. On Your Marks is a Fresh
Air Production for ACCA. Its lead producer is Eva Higginbotham
and its executive producer is Annie Day. The videographer is
Yohan Forbes and the sound engineer is Basil Oxtoby. See
you next time.
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