May 22, 2024 • 27 mins
Conversations about finances are rarely easy, even in families where money is talked about openly. And, as your parents get older and end-of-life planning comes into play, it can become even trickier.
But while it can require tact and diplomacy to discuss your parents’ financial position and future wishes, it’s absolutely essential that you do so.
In this episode of the Australian Unity podcast Parenting Up, our experts Nicole Woodward, Head of Trustees Services at Australian Unity, and Jean Kittson AM, author, performer and host of ‘Parenting Up with Australian Unity’, share insights and advice on how to start the process with your parents.
To learn more about parenting up, visit: https://www.australianunity.com.au/wellbeing/community-and-relationships/helping-ageing-parents-plan-their-finances
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
This is Parenting Up with Australian Unity, a podcast where
we're talking about aging, and we're looking at some of
those essential conversations that we need to have with our
loved ones as they get older. This series is full
(00:21):
of just incredibly important information we all need to know
so that we can help our elderly loved ones as
they age. And I've had a bit of experience in
this area. Having cared for my own parents for the
last 15 years, I would say mum is just about
to turn 99 and dad just turned 96, and I
found the process such a minefield that I even wrote
(00:46):
a book about it. We need to talk about Mum
and Dad, a guide to parenting our ageing parents just
to help myself and my family and anyone else who
embarks on this quite challenging journey. This episode is about
financial planning, which makes my blood run cold, quite frankly.
I get anxious just thinking about looking closely at finances,
(01:09):
especially my finances. I have super and I don't even
know where it is. It's out in the ether doing
its thing. I hope you know I have a credit
card which I can't bear to look at too closely,
because all I see is something called discretionary spending, whatever
that is. And most of us are about as qualified
to manage our own finances as we are to remove
(01:31):
our own spleens. And and that's the same for most
of our parents, too, especially their finances in later life,
which are really complex now, money is never an easy
topic to discuss with loved ones, and they might say,
is it none of your business? But we really need
to know, and they need to have a clear idea
of what they've got their assets. Because as I said,
(01:53):
it's part of every part of aged care. We need
to encourage our elders to have all their important papers
in place to avoid a nightmare in a crisis. So
today we are really lucky because we've got Nicole Woodward,
who's head of trustees services at Australian Unity, and she
is going to talk to us about how to have
(02:14):
those conversations about finances, what aspects of finances are important
to discuss. And I'm really thrilled to have an expert
in the room. Welcome, Nicole.
S2 (02:25):
Thank you. Jane, it's a pleasure to be here.
S1 (02:28):
Oh it's great. It's just a relief seeing someone who
is an expert in finances. Thank you for being here.
I suppose we should start with saying, why do you
think people are so fraught about finances?
S2 (02:40):
I even see it in my own family, Jane. I mean,
I've been in the trustee industry for over 20 years,
but I grew up in a family that we never
really talked about what we had. I'm an orphan, so
both of my parents have have now gone for for
many years. But I know even when my own father
passed away, we thought we knew what he had. But
(03:00):
it was a thought. It wasn't an absolute knowledge, and
it just opened up a whole Pandora's box as to
what his assets were, how to call things in. And yeah.
S1 (03:13):
It suddenly it's complicated. Um, if he never discussed it
with you, then I suppose, did he have all the
important papers in place? Was he organized like that?
S2 (03:22):
Fortunately. Organized enough, I think. Very sort of basic, jointly
owned house, bank accounts. Super. He was certainly in the
age where people had built a decent super at the time.
But it really starts to get you thinking that it's
not something we speak about a lot. Don't talk about it.
(03:44):
It seems culturally something we tend to bury and think
we'll worry about it down the track if we ever
need to.
S1 (03:51):
Well, when I was growing up, you didn't talk about sex,
money or politics, correct? Those three subjects you never bring
up in polite society. So that means when you're trying
to work out the best thing to do with your
parents not for them, but with them. It's really hard
(04:12):
if you have no clue what their finances are. So why?
From a financial experts point of view, why? Why is
it important to know their finances?
S2 (04:22):
Really, it's so we can help them so we can
help them with whatever this next stage of life is
again drawing on for my own personal experience, um, my
mother in law sadly was diagnosed with dementia and got
to the point she needed to move out of home
and into care very, very quickly. If we don't have
(04:43):
an idea of what her assets are, then it makes
it very hard to make decisions as to next stage accommodation,
how how to fund it, how, where do we start?
So the more information we have up front, the easier
it is for us to help our families be where
they need to be and to get that sort of
(05:04):
immediate care and support they need.
S1 (05:06):
Because things are, you know, asset testing. There's asset testing
for everything, and you might be eligible for things you
never knew you were eligible for subsidies, and And.
S2 (05:19):
It certainly opened my eyes about acat and all different
sort of opportunities and possibilities there were for her that
never had to turn our minds to, wasn't something we
thought about. I think many of us are in that
so called sandwich generation, where we've got young children of
(05:39):
our own. We're trying to balance our careers, elderly parents
that what do we do? We're so time poor that
it's very hard to take a step back and go,
what happens next?
S1 (05:51):
Yes, and of course, you know the old saying failure
to plan is planning to fail, and then you'll have
to deal with all these important questions in a crisis,
like suddenly finding accommodation for your your mother in law
and then not knowing what she was eligible for or
how much she'd have to pay. Because going into accommodation,
they will charge you according to what you can afford.
(06:14):
Most of it is co-payment with government subsidies and government funding. So,
you know, everyone wants to know what you can afford.
So you need to know, have all that in place,
understand your finances and the eligibility. Like if you are
on a pension you're eligible for, even if you're only
eligible for a dollar of the pension, you need to
(06:36):
work that out too. You might be, and if you're
even eligible for a dollar of the age pension, there's
40 subsidies or something that and concessions that you can access.
And it makes a huge difference when trying to make
ends meet and making these decisions with your elders and
(06:57):
your elders, making informed decisions instead of saying, I don't
think I can afford this or I don't think I'm eligible,
you have to know these got to know.
S2 (07:05):
For a fact. And I think, um, as you said
quite rightly before, it's it's often in these times of
crisis when quick decisions have to be made, that if
you step back and put a little bit of planning
into the next step, it would be so much easier
on everyone. People are grieving for their own reasons. When
(07:26):
someone is in a state of declining dementia, it's really
hard to make that objective step back and trying to
get all the finances in order and trying to find
out what you're entitled to. If that had have been
done beforehand, it would make it so much easier to
put the focus on actually caring for the person.
S1 (07:46):
That's why it's really, really important to give someone you
trust and your the authority to make inquiries on your behalf.
Because in if we take the case of your mother
in law, if she had lost capacity, which means that
she was no longer capable of making decisions, and if
(08:08):
that was a medical diagnosis, she would then not be
able to put in place. Powers of attorney. Enduring powers
of attorney. Guardianships medical Guardianships. If you talk about the
different legal vehicles, legal things we need in place and
what powers they give people.
S2 (08:27):
I think we're very accustomed to understanding why we would
need a will and what happens to our affairs when
we pass away. Um, but I think what a lot
of people don't think about is what will happen to
our affairs if we lose that capacity. So when we're
still alive, when we're needing potentially extra care or alternative accommodation,
(08:51):
what can we do now when we're able to make
those decisions, to know that we're looked after, when we
can't make those decisions. So so you certainly mentioned a
power of attorney. So that is something that you can
work with your solicitor to draw up that in the event,
if it was an enduring power of attorney, in the
event that you don't have that capacity to act, then
(09:14):
you would nominate a person to act on your behalf. Um,
now that might be an individual. It could potentially be
a trustee company, but somebody that you trust to look
after your affairs when you can't make those decisions. And
we have many of our clients who have an appointment
(09:36):
by a tribunal to have us act as administrator or
financial manager, depending on what state of in Australia you're
sitting in where the tribunal has had to make that
decision for them because they had lost capacity before they
were able to make, before.
S1 (09:52):
They put those legal papers in place. So if you
lose capacity and you haven't got any of those, you
haven't got an enduring power of attorney. And you know, someone,
as I said, someone from your family, maybe you trust
or maybe it's a trustee, um, Um, someone outside of
the family. If you haven't got those things in place,
(10:14):
what happens to your affairs?
S2 (10:16):
And that is the really challenging situation, because there is
going to be a time lag between you possibly losing
that capacity to make your decisions and somebody being appointed
to act for you by a tribunal. So often it
happens in a time of crisis that somebody has had
a medical incident, they've ended up in hospital, they've had
(10:39):
an assessment where the medical professionals feel that they're not
capable of managing their finances, but now they find they
need to move into care, high care, a facility, and
somebody has to be appointed to make those decisions for them.
S1 (10:53):
And you don't want to lag in that situation and
imagine the family when your loved one is in hospital
and maybe has had a stroke or something, and then
you're trying to organise so that they're really well cared
for as soon as possible and settled and on the
road to recovery or, you know, getting comfort and, and
(11:13):
you have to go through all these legal procedures. It
would absolutely just be the icing on the cake, wouldn't it?
S2 (11:19):
Absolutely. When are you trying to do is get the
bills paid, but you don't have access to that cash
because you're not appointed to act.
S1 (11:27):
I remember someone telling me when I was researching my book,
that her mother had a medical event, and I don't
mean an awards night. She had a medical event, as
they call it, and ended up in hospital and was very,
very unwell. And she had no legal things in place.
So the daughter's going to her bedside with enduring powers
(11:48):
of attorney, with an end of life care directive, trying
to ask her mother to sign these papers, she said
everyone in the ward was looking at her like she
was some sort of ghoul and saying, sort of undue influence. Yeah,
trying to influence her, trying to coerce her to. And
it wasn't about a will or anything like that. It
was about putting in place the proper care afterwards and
(12:11):
being being able to make those decisions legally. And these
are these papers are very protective of the person. I
know a lot of our elders worry if they give
someone the power of attorney, then that person is going
to do the wrong thing. Sometimes that happens.
S2 (12:27):
Sometimes they do. And you know there are other avenues
in place to deal with that too. And unfortunately, we
do see a lot of incidences of elder abuse, which
is very unfortunate part of our society that we are seeing,
but there are mechanisms in place to deal with that
as someone was doing the wrong thing. But I think
(12:48):
inherently most people have their loved ones interests at heart
and genuinely want to do the right thing and want
to make sure that they're they're looked after. Yes.
S1 (12:58):
So the on the positive side, putting these legal things
in place, you're not relinquishing your control. You're giving yourself
more control like gaining control.
S2 (13:08):
Yeah. You have you're on the front foot. You're appointing
the person that you feel is best placed to look
after your affairs when you can't.
S1 (13:17):
Right? Yes. You don't want your offspring to be arguing
around your bed about who's making the decisions. Can you
imagine that would be the worst case scenario? So it
does give you more control. So for example, when before I,
you know, was involved in my parents caring for my parents,
which I've been doing for about 15 years now, and
(13:39):
their primary care and my mum's are 99 and this
year she's 99.
S2 (13:44):
My goodness.
S1 (13:45):
My dad is um, just turned 96. He's her.
S2 (13:49):
Toy boy. I love it.
S1 (13:51):
There's been it's been quite a complex journey. And at
first I knew, I thought I knew all about legal things.
I go, yes, yes, you know, you've got power of
attorney Gene. You're our power of attorney. Okay, great. But
power of attorney can only be used if your parents
lose capacity. That means if they can no longer make
decisions for themselves. Whereas enduring power of attorney is for.
(14:15):
And it's only for finance, isn't it? You know, can
you tell us the difference?
S2 (14:18):
So people often mistake guardianship to attorney. So guardian will
be someone that will make medical decisions on your behalf.
They will make decisions as to the type of accommodation
that you will live in, whereas your attorney will make
financial decisions. So a practical example, if someone has needs
(14:42):
to move into residential accommodation, potentially high care nursing facility,
what facility is right for them? If I am your attorney,
I can only say is that affordable? You have X
amount of dollars in the bank. You've got X amount
of needs for your for medical expenses. So therefore is
(15:04):
this affordable for you to live in? I can't say
that that's an ideal place for you to live in
because of the type of nursing care, or because it's
close to your family or your relatives in that facility.
That is your guardians decision. So it's really important that
you think not only financial attorney but also the Guardian
(15:27):
that can help make those decisions.
S1 (15:30):
Yes, of course you need that. You need the both
of those and often it's the same person if you
really trust them.
S2 (15:37):
Often. Often it is.
S1 (15:39):
You know, you want to be fair, I'd probably appoint
both my daughters, for example. But I know that if
you've got two people and they start arguing, that's going
to be difficult. So you'd want to make sure if
you do appoint two people, they're in agreement. And part
of these papers and these legal vehicles that make that
smooth the way the other thing that you have to
(16:01):
put in place is an advanced directive, an advanced care plan.
But the legal term is advanced directive and that is
your your person. You have appointed your guardian and your
enduring power of attorney understands what your wishes are for
the end of your life, where you want to be,
what sort of medical interventions or not that you want,
(16:22):
what sort of any interventions you want. And so everyone's
had these difficult conversations.
S2 (16:29):
We all think we're infallible and we're never going to
to need to get to that point. But if you
have a strong wish and a strong desire for how
you want things to play out, then you have to
vocalize it. You have to let those that are going
to make these decisions for you know, otherwise, you may
not get what you want, what you want. Yeah, there is.
S1 (16:52):
Only one thing that someone told me when you talk
about ads and wills and insurances and funerals and all
these sort of things, they said to normalise it as
part of your annual planning, like do it at tax
time or car rego time.
S2 (17:07):
Um, it was almost like when people did prepaid funerals
years ago. That was a bit weird, but now it's
more and more the norm that we do think about,
you know, whether we want the mariachi band or whatever playing.
So I guess as time goes on, it will become
more of a familiar subject.
S1 (17:25):
You have to have those. These conversations give you more control,
not less. And I'm talking now to our elders who
may be resisting these sort of conversations, but they will
give you more control. And we can say that to
our parents that we give them more control. It's not
about us taking control, because although this series is called
(17:46):
parenting Up, we're not infantilizing them. We're not treating them
like children. This is adult to adult, and our elders
wishes are paramount, and that's their human right to make
their own decisions about their life as long as they
are able to. But these legal vehicles, legal documents are
(18:08):
so essential to them being able to maintain that control
of their lives. So do you need a power of
attorney and an enduring power of attorney, or just one
or the other?
S2 (18:21):
It depends on your circumstances, but certainly having that enduring
power of attorney for when you lose capacity, that someone
can step in and take control of your finances, allow
the bills to be paid, allow you to get the
care you need.
S1 (18:37):
Yes, I have enduring powers of attorney for my parents
and they have capacity mentally, but not physically. So I'll
go to the bank for dad and he might come
for the ride. Sit in the car. Mum. Mum can't
come any longer. Although she loved going into the bank
and they've still got a passbook, you know.
S2 (18:59):
Yeah.
S1 (19:00):
She loved getting that passport passbook stamped and having a look.
What the you know, the balance was. And I still
have to report back when I come back. Okay. We took,
you know, $300 out for the week. And here it
is in 50 years. And and mum has to have
her share and dad has to have his share. And
because dad likes to put it in his wallet and
(19:22):
Roy I haven't got any money. Do you know what
that feels like? So that she has anywhere to spend it?
But it's that, you know, like respecting someone's independence and
autonomy means they have to have a bit of cash
in their walker.
S2 (19:35):
That's absolutely to feel in control. And it's so important
to have.
S1 (19:40):
Yes. So what it's given me is the authority to
be able to speak to people on their behalf with
them in the room. But I've now got the authority
with Centrelink, I've got the authority with my aged care,
I've got the authority at the bank to, um, look
at their term deposit, put that into place. I've got
(20:03):
the authority with medical doctors to talk to on their behalf,
make appointments. I've got the authority with the pharmacy, sometimes
with doctors and pharmacies. You just have to go in
with your parent and they realize that your parent is,
you know, willing and not being coerced. But always if
you have the proper documents in place, it means so.
S2 (20:26):
Much more helpful. And I mean, could you imagine if
you didn't have that in place and you needed to
get money out urgently for your parents, how would you
do it?
S1 (20:36):
Yes.
S2 (20:36):
Yeah, very, very difficult.
S1 (20:38):
Very difficult. And tell us how you put these legal
documents in place.
S2 (20:44):
First point of call is to visit your solicitor. So
if you don't have a family solicitor, then there are
many accredited specialists that deal in estate planning that you
could you could make an appointment with and discuss your
wishes and get them to put that in place for you.
I would have a discussion with the person that you
(21:05):
wanted to appoint to make sure that they're on board
with that. It might be that you want your first
born child to be your attorney. That might not be
workable for them. Everybody's got their own families and careers
and things that might prevent them giving their best at
managing your finances. So have a talk with them first
(21:26):
if This is something they're willing and able. Son, who.
S1 (21:29):
Lives in another.
S2 (21:29):
State or another country is, you know, as the world
could be. So I think yeah, that's that's right. And
but somebody that's going to have your interests at heart
and have the capacity to manage your affairs for you.
S1 (21:45):
I just want to make this point about finding the
an expert. It's really important to find someone who does
these sort of documents on a regular basis. Who does
will a lot of wills, a lot of, uh, enduring
powers of attorney. And the really important thing which didn't
happen with me. And then an elder abuse barrister told
(22:05):
me that what happened with myself and my parents was
unethical was that we I'd made an appointment with the
solicitor they chose, and they chose the solicitor based on
someone had recommended them. Uh, we went along and I
was in the room with my parents while they were
signing these documents, and I didn't realize at the time,
(22:27):
but I've learned since I shouldn't have been on in
the room because I could have been the bad daughter.
S2 (22:32):
Could have been coercing.
S1 (22:34):
I could have been coercing them. So the solicitor has
to take your loved one, talk to them about who
they're appointing and why they're appointing it. And that person
is not meant to be in the room with them,
even though I was helping them. But I should never
have been in the room with them because I could
have said, oh, just come along and sign this. And
the solicitor should work out whether your elderly loved one
(22:55):
has capacity.
S2 (22:56):
And they fully understand what they're signing and why they're
appointing you.
S1 (23:01):
Yeah, well, it's really important to get an overall picture
of the financial situation of your parents. Do we need
these legal things in place beforehand or how do we
how do we get a picture of what's going on?
S2 (23:14):
The best place to start is really a bank statement.
Bank statement can tell you so many things. Um, not
only what you hold at that particular bank in in cash,
for example, but But let's say you were getting dividends
from a particular company. Those dividends payments may be coming
into the the account. Often people set up direct debits
(23:37):
as well. So the debits are coming out of the account.
So if you look at those account statements they will
give you such a good picture from the start. Another
really obvious sounding way is really check the mail. If
you're someone that doesn't live close to your parent, it
might be that you need to put a mail redirection
(23:57):
in place. So the mail is coming to you, and
it might be even over the course of several months
that talked about dividend statements before, but maybe a letter
from the superannuation company might come through. And you can
start to piece together asset pool that you may or
may not have ever known about another Another way also
is to look back at tax returns. So previous returns
(24:21):
might also show if there were income sources that you
weren't aware of. So that may appear on their returns
as well.
S1 (24:31):
That makes me shudder. Actually, I can't even look at
my own tax return, let alone anybody else's. But look,
I think the ultimate aim for us is to make
sure that we understand the loved ones, our loved ones
financial position, so their care costs will be covered so
they won't run out of money so that we can
understand what they can and can't afford.
S2 (24:54):
Absolutely. I think it's about having that empowerment to make
those decisions when you're able so that your wishes are known.
They're known up front and known early, so that it's
not coming down to a time of crisis when things
have to be made on the fly. Yes, and under stress.
S1 (25:15):
Very good advice, believe me. Very good advice from a
woman who's experienced it. Thank you. Nicole.
S2 (25:22):
Thank you so much, Jane. Thank you.
S1 (25:25):
Well, that was really fantastic. All that information. So just
a couple of key takeaways. Conversations about money as we
know can be awkward. But it's so important that your
elder has a clear picture of their finances to make
sure that their costs of care can be met. A
pointing decision makers is important, and there's a difference between
(25:47):
power of attorney, enduring power of attorney, and enduring guardianship.
So make sure your elder has the right people in
place to help them in different aspects of their life.
Review financial documents regularly. These things shouldn't be set and forget.
In fact, you can normalize these conversations about advance care
directives and funeral planning and wills by doing it annually
(26:11):
is when you talk about your car rego or your
rates or tax time. That's just something you just do.
Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast series,
Parenting Up with Australian Unity. I've really enjoyed chatting to
all these wonderful experts, and I hope their knowledge and
experience has helped you to support your loved ones and
(26:33):
make sure they are healthy, safe, independent and most importantly,
happy for as long as possible. Thank you. The information
(26:54):
provided in this episode of Parenting Up is general in
nature and does not consider your personal circumstances. Australian unity
accepts no responsibility for the accuracy of any opinions, advice,
representations or information contained in this podcast. Listeners should rely
(27:15):
on their own independent advice and inquiries when making decisions
affecting their own or their loved ones finances, health, wellbeing
or other interests.
This is Parenting Up with Australian Unity, a podcast where
we're talking about aging, and we're looking at some of
those essential conversations that we need to have with our
loved ones as they get older. This series is full
(00:21):
of just incredibly important information we all need to know
so that we can help our elderly loved ones as
they age. And I've had a bit of experience in
this area. Having cared for my own parents for the
last 15 years, I would say mum is just about
to turn 99 and dad just turned 96, and I
found the process such a minefield that I even wrote
(00:46):
a book about it. We need to talk about Mum
and Dad, a guide to parenting our ageing parents just
to help myself and my family and anyone else who
embarks on this quite challenging journey. This episode is about
financial planning, which makes my blood run cold, quite frankly.
I get anxious just thinking about looking closely at finances,
(01:09):
especially my finances. I have super and I don't even
know where it is. It's out in the ether doing
its thing. I hope you know I have a credit
card which I can't bear to look at too closely,
because all I see is something called discretionary spending, whatever
that is. And most of us are about as qualified
to manage our own finances as we are to remove
(01:31):
our own spleens. And and that's the same for most
of our parents, too, especially their finances in later life,
which are really complex now, money is never an easy
topic to discuss with loved ones, and they might say,
is it none of your business? But we really need
to know, and they need to have a clear idea
of what they've got their assets. Because as I said,
(01:53):
it's part of every part of aged care. We need
to encourage our elders to have all their important papers
in place to avoid a nightmare in a crisis. So
today we are really lucky because we've got Nicole Woodward,
who's head of trustees services at Australian Unity, and she
is going to talk to us about how to have
(02:14):
those conversations about finances, what aspects of finances are important
to discuss. And I'm really thrilled to have an expert
in the room. Welcome, Nicole.
S2 (02:25):
Thank you. Jane, it's a pleasure to be here.
S1 (02:28):
Oh it's great. It's just a relief seeing someone who
is an expert in finances. Thank you for being here.
I suppose we should start with saying, why do you
think people are so fraught about finances?
S2 (02:40):
I even see it in my own family, Jane. I mean,
I've been in the trustee industry for over 20 years,
but I grew up in a family that we never
really talked about what we had. I'm an orphan, so
both of my parents have have now gone for for
many years. But I know even when my own father
passed away, we thought we knew what he had. But
(03:00):
it was a thought. It wasn't an absolute knowledge, and
it just opened up a whole Pandora's box as to
what his assets were, how to call things in. And yeah.
S1 (03:13):
It suddenly it's complicated. Um, if he never discussed it
with you, then I suppose, did he have all the
important papers in place? Was he organized like that?
S2 (03:22):
Fortunately. Organized enough, I think. Very sort of basic, jointly
owned house, bank accounts. Super. He was certainly in the
age where people had built a decent super at the time.
But it really starts to get you thinking that it's
not something we speak about a lot. Don't talk about it.
(03:44):
It seems culturally something we tend to bury and think
we'll worry about it down the track if we ever
need to.
S1 (03:51):
Well, when I was growing up, you didn't talk about sex,
money or politics, correct? Those three subjects you never bring
up in polite society. So that means when you're trying
to work out the best thing to do with your
parents not for them, but with them. It's really hard
(04:12):
if you have no clue what their finances are. So why?
From a financial experts point of view, why? Why is
it important to know their finances?
S2 (04:22):
Really, it's so we can help them so we can
help them with whatever this next stage of life is
again drawing on for my own personal experience, um, my
mother in law sadly was diagnosed with dementia and got
to the point she needed to move out of home
and into care very, very quickly. If we don't have
(04:43):
an idea of what her assets are, then it makes
it very hard to make decisions as to next stage accommodation,
how how to fund it, how, where do we start?
So the more information we have up front, the easier
it is for us to help our families be where
they need to be and to get that sort of
(05:04):
immediate care and support they need.
S1 (05:06):
Because things are, you know, asset testing. There's asset testing
for everything, and you might be eligible for things you
never knew you were eligible for subsidies, and And.
S2 (05:19):
It certainly opened my eyes about acat and all different
sort of opportunities and possibilities there were for her that
never had to turn our minds to, wasn't something we
thought about. I think many of us are in that
so called sandwich generation, where we've got young children of
(05:39):
our own. We're trying to balance our careers, elderly parents
that what do we do? We're so time poor that
it's very hard to take a step back and go,
what happens next?
S1 (05:51):
Yes, and of course, you know the old saying failure
to plan is planning to fail, and then you'll have
to deal with all these important questions in a crisis,
like suddenly finding accommodation for your your mother in law
and then not knowing what she was eligible for or
how much she'd have to pay. Because going into accommodation,
they will charge you according to what you can afford.
(06:14):
Most of it is co-payment with government subsidies and government funding. So,
you know, everyone wants to know what you can afford.
So you need to know, have all that in place,
understand your finances and the eligibility. Like if you are
on a pension you're eligible for, even if you're only
eligible for a dollar of the pension, you need to
(06:36):
work that out too. You might be, and if you're
even eligible for a dollar of the age pension, there's
40 subsidies or something that and concessions that you can access.
And it makes a huge difference when trying to make
ends meet and making these decisions with your elders and
(06:57):
your elders, making informed decisions instead of saying, I don't
think I can afford this or I don't think I'm eligible,
you have to know these got to know.
S2 (07:05):
For a fact. And I think, um, as you said
quite rightly before, it's it's often in these times of
crisis when quick decisions have to be made, that if
you step back and put a little bit of planning
into the next step, it would be so much easier
on everyone. People are grieving for their own reasons. When
(07:26):
someone is in a state of declining dementia, it's really
hard to make that objective step back and trying to
get all the finances in order and trying to find
out what you're entitled to. If that had have been
done beforehand, it would make it so much easier to
put the focus on actually caring for the person.
S1 (07:46):
That's why it's really, really important to give someone you
trust and your the authority to make inquiries on your behalf.
Because in if we take the case of your mother
in law, if she had lost capacity, which means that
she was no longer capable of making decisions, and if
(08:08):
that was a medical diagnosis, she would then not be
able to put in place. Powers of attorney. Enduring powers
of attorney. Guardianships medical Guardianships. If you talk about the
different legal vehicles, legal things we need in place and
what powers they give people.
S2 (08:27):
I think we're very accustomed to understanding why we would
need a will and what happens to our affairs when
we pass away. Um, but I think what a lot
of people don't think about is what will happen to
our affairs if we lose that capacity. So when we're
still alive, when we're needing potentially extra care or alternative accommodation,
(08:51):
what can we do now when we're able to make
those decisions, to know that we're looked after, when we
can't make those decisions. So so you certainly mentioned a
power of attorney. So that is something that you can
work with your solicitor to draw up that in the event,
if it was an enduring power of attorney, in the
event that you don't have that capacity to act, then
(09:14):
you would nominate a person to act on your behalf. Um,
now that might be an individual. It could potentially be
a trustee company, but somebody that you trust to look
after your affairs when you can't make those decisions. And
we have many of our clients who have an appointment
(09:36):
by a tribunal to have us act as administrator or
financial manager, depending on what state of in Australia you're
sitting in where the tribunal has had to make that
decision for them because they had lost capacity before they
were able to make, before.
S1 (09:52):
They put those legal papers in place. So if you
lose capacity and you haven't got any of those, you
haven't got an enduring power of attorney. And you know, someone,
as I said, someone from your family, maybe you trust
or maybe it's a trustee, um, Um, someone outside of
the family. If you haven't got those things in place,
(10:14):
what happens to your affairs?
S2 (10:16):
And that is the really challenging situation, because there is
going to be a time lag between you possibly losing
that capacity to make your decisions and somebody being appointed
to act for you by a tribunal. So often it
happens in a time of crisis that somebody has had
a medical incident, they've ended up in hospital, they've had
(10:39):
an assessment where the medical professionals feel that they're not
capable of managing their finances, but now they find they
need to move into care, high care, a facility, and
somebody has to be appointed to make those decisions for them.
S1 (10:53):
And you don't want to lag in that situation and
imagine the family when your loved one is in hospital
and maybe has had a stroke or something, and then
you're trying to organise so that they're really well cared
for as soon as possible and settled and on the
road to recovery or, you know, getting comfort and, and
(11:13):
you have to go through all these legal procedures. It
would absolutely just be the icing on the cake, wouldn't it?
S2 (11:19):
Absolutely. When are you trying to do is get the
bills paid, but you don't have access to that cash
because you're not appointed to act.
S1 (11:27):
I remember someone telling me when I was researching my book,
that her mother had a medical event, and I don't
mean an awards night. She had a medical event, as
they call it, and ended up in hospital and was very,
very unwell. And she had no legal things in place.
So the daughter's going to her bedside with enduring powers
(11:48):
of attorney, with an end of life care directive, trying
to ask her mother to sign these papers, she said
everyone in the ward was looking at her like she
was some sort of ghoul and saying, sort of undue influence. Yeah,
trying to influence her, trying to coerce her to. And
it wasn't about a will or anything like that. It
was about putting in place the proper care afterwards and
(12:11):
being being able to make those decisions legally. And these
are these papers are very protective of the person. I
know a lot of our elders worry if they give
someone the power of attorney, then that person is going
to do the wrong thing. Sometimes that happens.
S2 (12:27):
Sometimes they do. And you know there are other avenues
in place to deal with that too. And unfortunately, we
do see a lot of incidences of elder abuse, which
is very unfortunate part of our society that we are seeing,
but there are mechanisms in place to deal with that
as someone was doing the wrong thing. But I think
(12:48):
inherently most people have their loved ones interests at heart
and genuinely want to do the right thing and want
to make sure that they're they're looked after. Yes.
S1 (12:58):
So the on the positive side, putting these legal things
in place, you're not relinquishing your control. You're giving yourself
more control like gaining control.
S2 (13:08):
Yeah. You have you're on the front foot. You're appointing
the person that you feel is best placed to look
after your affairs when you can't.
S1 (13:17):
Right? Yes. You don't want your offspring to be arguing
around your bed about who's making the decisions. Can you
imagine that would be the worst case scenario? So it
does give you more control. So for example, when before I,
you know, was involved in my parents caring for my parents,
which I've been doing for about 15 years now, and
(13:39):
their primary care and my mum's are 99 and this
year she's 99.
S2 (13:44):
My goodness.
S1 (13:45):
My dad is um, just turned 96. He's her.
S2 (13:49):
Toy boy. I love it.
S1 (13:51):
There's been it's been quite a complex journey. And at
first I knew, I thought I knew all about legal things.
I go, yes, yes, you know, you've got power of
attorney Gene. You're our power of attorney. Okay, great. But
power of attorney can only be used if your parents
lose capacity. That means if they can no longer make
decisions for themselves. Whereas enduring power of attorney is for.
(14:15):
And it's only for finance, isn't it? You know, can
you tell us the difference?
S2 (14:18):
So people often mistake guardianship to attorney. So guardian will
be someone that will make medical decisions on your behalf.
They will make decisions as to the type of accommodation
that you will live in, whereas your attorney will make
financial decisions. So a practical example, if someone has needs
(14:42):
to move into residential accommodation, potentially high care nursing facility,
what facility is right for them? If I am your attorney,
I can only say is that affordable? You have X
amount of dollars in the bank. You've got X amount
of needs for your for medical expenses. So therefore is
(15:04):
this affordable for you to live in? I can't say
that that's an ideal place for you to live in
because of the type of nursing care, or because it's
close to your family or your relatives in that facility.
That is your guardians decision. So it's really important that
you think not only financial attorney but also the Guardian
(15:27):
that can help make those decisions.
S1 (15:30):
Yes, of course you need that. You need the both
of those and often it's the same person if you
really trust them.
S2 (15:37):
Often. Often it is.
S1 (15:39):
You know, you want to be fair, I'd probably appoint
both my daughters, for example. But I know that if
you've got two people and they start arguing, that's going
to be difficult. So you'd want to make sure if
you do appoint two people, they're in agreement. And part
of these papers and these legal vehicles that make that
smooth the way the other thing that you have to
(16:01):
put in place is an advanced directive, an advanced care plan.
But the legal term is advanced directive and that is
your your person. You have appointed your guardian and your
enduring power of attorney understands what your wishes are for
the end of your life, where you want to be,
what sort of medical interventions or not that you want,
(16:22):
what sort of any interventions you want. And so everyone's
had these difficult conversations.
S2 (16:29):
We all think we're infallible and we're never going to
to need to get to that point. But if you
have a strong wish and a strong desire for how
you want things to play out, then you have to
vocalize it. You have to let those that are going
to make these decisions for you know, otherwise, you may
not get what you want, what you want. Yeah, there is.
S1 (16:52):
Only one thing that someone told me when you talk
about ads and wills and insurances and funerals and all
these sort of things, they said to normalise it as
part of your annual planning, like do it at tax
time or car rego time.
S2 (17:07):
Um, it was almost like when people did prepaid funerals
years ago. That was a bit weird, but now it's
more and more the norm that we do think about,
you know, whether we want the mariachi band or whatever playing.
So I guess as time goes on, it will become
more of a familiar subject.
S1 (17:25):
You have to have those. These conversations give you more control,
not less. And I'm talking now to our elders who
may be resisting these sort of conversations, but they will
give you more control. And we can say that to
our parents that we give them more control. It's not
about us taking control, because although this series is called
(17:46):
parenting Up, we're not infantilizing them. We're not treating them
like children. This is adult to adult, and our elders
wishes are paramount, and that's their human right to make
their own decisions about their life as long as they
are able to. But these legal vehicles, legal documents are
(18:08):
so essential to them being able to maintain that control
of their lives. So do you need a power of
attorney and an enduring power of attorney, or just one
or the other?
S2 (18:21):
It depends on your circumstances, but certainly having that enduring
power of attorney for when you lose capacity, that someone
can step in and take control of your finances, allow
the bills to be paid, allow you to get the
care you need.
S1 (18:37):
Yes, I have enduring powers of attorney for my parents
and they have capacity mentally, but not physically. So I'll
go to the bank for dad and he might come
for the ride. Sit in the car. Mum. Mum can't
come any longer. Although she loved going into the bank
and they've still got a passbook, you know.
S2 (18:59):
Yeah.
S1 (19:00):
She loved getting that passport passbook stamped and having a look.
What the you know, the balance was. And I still
have to report back when I come back. Okay. We took,
you know, $300 out for the week. And here it
is in 50 years. And and mum has to have
her share and dad has to have his share. And
because dad likes to put it in his wallet and
(19:22):
Roy I haven't got any money. Do you know what
that feels like? So that she has anywhere to spend it?
But it's that, you know, like respecting someone's independence and
autonomy means they have to have a bit of cash
in their walker.
S2 (19:35):
That's absolutely to feel in control. And it's so important
to have.
S1 (19:40):
Yes. So what it's given me is the authority to
be able to speak to people on their behalf with
them in the room. But I've now got the authority
with Centrelink, I've got the authority with my aged care,
I've got the authority at the bank to, um, look
at their term deposit, put that into place. I've got
(20:03):
the authority with medical doctors to talk to on their behalf,
make appointments. I've got the authority with the pharmacy, sometimes
with doctors and pharmacies. You just have to go in
with your parent and they realize that your parent is,
you know, willing and not being coerced. But always if
you have the proper documents in place, it means so.
S2 (20:26):
Much more helpful. And I mean, could you imagine if
you didn't have that in place and you needed to
get money out urgently for your parents, how would you
do it?
S1 (20:36):
Yes.
S2 (20:36):
Yeah, very, very difficult.
S1 (20:38):
Very difficult. And tell us how you put these legal
documents in place.
S2 (20:44):
First point of call is to visit your solicitor. So
if you don't have a family solicitor, then there are
many accredited specialists that deal in estate planning that you
could you could make an appointment with and discuss your
wishes and get them to put that in place for you.
I would have a discussion with the person that you
(21:05):
wanted to appoint to make sure that they're on board
with that. It might be that you want your first
born child to be your attorney. That might not be
workable for them. Everybody's got their own families and careers
and things that might prevent them giving their best at
managing your finances. So have a talk with them first
(21:26):
if This is something they're willing and able. Son, who.
S1 (21:29):
Lives in another.
S2 (21:29):
State or another country is, you know, as the world
could be. So I think yeah, that's that's right. And
but somebody that's going to have your interests at heart
and have the capacity to manage your affairs for you.
S1 (21:45):
I just want to make this point about finding the
an expert. It's really important to find someone who does
these sort of documents on a regular basis. Who does
will a lot of wills, a lot of, uh, enduring
powers of attorney. And the really important thing which didn't
happen with me. And then an elder abuse barrister told
(22:05):
me that what happened with myself and my parents was
unethical was that we I'd made an appointment with the
solicitor they chose, and they chose the solicitor based on
someone had recommended them. Uh, we went along and I
was in the room with my parents while they were
signing these documents, and I didn't realize at the time,
(22:27):
but I've learned since I shouldn't have been on in
the room because I could have been the bad daughter.
S2 (22:32):
Could have been coercing.
S1 (22:34):
I could have been coercing them. So the solicitor has
to take your loved one, talk to them about who
they're appointing and why they're appointing it. And that person
is not meant to be in the room with them,
even though I was helping them. But I should never
have been in the room with them because I could
have said, oh, just come along and sign this. And
the solicitor should work out whether your elderly loved one
(22:55):
has capacity.
S2 (22:56):
And they fully understand what they're signing and why they're
appointing you.
S1 (23:01):
Yeah, well, it's really important to get an overall picture
of the financial situation of your parents. Do we need
these legal things in place beforehand or how do we
how do we get a picture of what's going on?
S2 (23:14):
The best place to start is really a bank statement.
Bank statement can tell you so many things. Um, not
only what you hold at that particular bank in in cash,
for example, but But let's say you were getting dividends
from a particular company. Those dividends payments may be coming
into the the account. Often people set up direct debits
(23:37):
as well. So the debits are coming out of the account.
So if you look at those account statements they will
give you such a good picture from the start. Another
really obvious sounding way is really check the mail. If
you're someone that doesn't live close to your parent, it
might be that you need to put a mail redirection
(23:57):
in place. So the mail is coming to you, and
it might be even over the course of several months
that talked about dividend statements before, but maybe a letter
from the superannuation company might come through. And you can
start to piece together asset pool that you may or
may not have ever known about another Another way also
is to look back at tax returns. So previous returns
(24:21):
might also show if there were income sources that you
weren't aware of. So that may appear on their returns
as well.
S1 (24:31):
That makes me shudder. Actually, I can't even look at
my own tax return, let alone anybody else's. But look,
I think the ultimate aim for us is to make
sure that we understand the loved ones, our loved ones
financial position, so their care costs will be covered so
they won't run out of money so that we can
understand what they can and can't afford.
S2 (24:54):
Absolutely. I think it's about having that empowerment to make
those decisions when you're able so that your wishes are known.
They're known up front and known early, so that it's
not coming down to a time of crisis when things
have to be made on the fly. Yes, and under stress.
S1 (25:15):
Very good advice, believe me. Very good advice from a
woman who's experienced it. Thank you. Nicole.
S2 (25:22):
Thank you so much, Jane. Thank you.
S1 (25:25):
Well, that was really fantastic. All that information. So just
a couple of key takeaways. Conversations about money as we
know can be awkward. But it's so important that your
elder has a clear picture of their finances to make
sure that their costs of care can be met. A
pointing decision makers is important, and there's a difference between
(25:47):
power of attorney, enduring power of attorney, and enduring guardianship.
So make sure your elder has the right people in
place to help them in different aspects of their life.
Review financial documents regularly. These things shouldn't be set and forget.
In fact, you can normalize these conversations about advance care
directives and funeral planning and wills by doing it annually
(26:11):
is when you talk about your car rego or your
rates or tax time. That's just something you just do.
Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast series,
Parenting Up with Australian Unity. I've really enjoyed chatting to
all these wonderful experts, and I hope their knowledge and
experience has helped you to support your loved ones and
(26:33):
make sure they are healthy, safe, independent and most importantly,
happy for as long as possible. Thank you. The information
(26:54):
provided in this episode of Parenting Up is general in
nature and does not consider your personal circumstances. Australian unity
accepts no responsibility for the accuracy of any opinions, advice,
representations or information contained in this podcast. Listeners should rely
(27:15):
on their own independent advice and inquiries when making decisions
affecting their own or their loved ones finances, health, wellbeing
or other interests.
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