Episode Transcript
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Jean Kittson (00:00):
This is Parenting Up with Australian Unity, a podcast where
we're talking about ageing, and we're looking at some of
those essential conversations that we need to have with our
loved ones as they get older. I'm Jean Kittson, and
(00:21):
this is a subject that is particularly close to my heart.
Having been through this process with my own parents. Mum
is almost 99 and dad has just turned 96, so
I know what a minefield it can be. I've even
written a book about it to help us all, but
mainly to help me. We need to talk about Mum
and dad. A guide to parenting our ageing Parents. Each episode,
(00:44):
I'm going to be joined by expert guests who can
help us navigate these challenging conversations with care and compassion
and empathy and respect. While retirement comes with big plans
to spend your well earned money, we often forget that
a time will come when you need to consider your
options for more support and more care, and maybe a
(01:04):
different place to live. And this will all have a
financial component. With me today is Matthew Ricker. He's the
CEO of Australian Unity Bank, and he is going to
talk us through some of the options for post-retirement living,
and we can make sure we're set up to pay
for it all. Thanks for being here, Matt.
Matthew Ricker (01:22):
Thanks, Jean, for having me.
Jean Kittson (01:23):
Oh, it's great you're here. I have to say that
finance always worries me slightly so, and I don't know
a lot about it because I think I just have
this mental block. But I know how important it is
that we. That our care costs are covered because there's
this big trend at the moment of people thinking, oh, well,
as soon as we retire, we'll spend all our super.
(01:45):
Is that a good choice to make?
Matthew Ricker (01:47):
Well, I guess it really comes down to every individual personally,
probably doesn't align with my risk profile. I think one
of the things that that I think about is when
I finished school, it was a bit of a rush
to go to university, get a job because you had
to retire at 55 because you were going to die
at about 63. Whereas ever since I started work, which
was a long time ago now, um, we, uh, we've
(02:08):
seen aging, aging go up and up and up, and our.
Jean Kittson (02:11):
Lifespan and.
Matthew Ricker (02:12):
Our lifespan is so much, so much more now. So
I think the consideration is much broader than than it
perhaps was, uh, you know, a generation ago or certainly, um,
you know, when I was leaving school, as I said,
it's individual choice and some people will, will choose. But
I think there's implications of that. And I think there's
a lot of concern for people is if they're still
healthy and active, if they run out of money. And
(02:34):
it's not that there aren't safety nets, we do have them.
But there's a real difference between the sort of lifestyle
that you're going to have as a fully or semi
funded retiree versus a, you know, somebody who's purely reliant
on various government support when they're when they're in retirement.
So it may seem like an obvious statement, but your
quality of choices and life excluding the health element, but
(02:58):
the financial well-being element is going to be down to
some of the choices you make well before you retire.
Jean Kittson (03:04):
Oh, what do you mean by that?
Matthew Ricker (03:06):
Well, I think, you know, preparation and, you know, getting
good financial advice along the way. I mean, the superannuation
has been a fantastic gift for Australians, you know, particularly
the the generation that is beginning to retire now have
pretty much had their whole working life with compulsory super.
So they're getting the benefits of that. But even beyond
(03:26):
that superannuation, good financial advice. My parents got divorced 30
something years ago and my mum was not the financial
person in the household. Not long started working in the
banking industry, and I sort of half forced her to
go and see a financial planner. Oh, great. Through the
branch that I was working in at the time, and
(03:46):
she's had a pretty reasonable quality of life and financial
choices in her retirement, largely because of she had a
plan and her advisor helped her stick to the plan.
Jean Kittson (03:57):
That's really important, I think, because we, you know, we're
not qualified to most of us aren't qualified to make
those important decisions about financing. And in the old days,
you just put your money in the bank and that
was it. But now, of course, that just doesn't keep
up with, you know, the consumer price index and the
value of your money diminishes over time rather than you
(04:20):
really need investments, don't you think?
Matthew Ricker (04:22):
Oh, absolutely. I think the super will take you so far.
Other wealth creation is important and a lot of people
have their wealth tied up in their family home, which
means it's really important to pay it off before you retire. Oh, is.
Jean Kittson (04:36):
That what's called by consolidating debt?
Matthew Ricker (04:39):
Well, no, that's that's something that can be a way
of consolidating your debts. To manage your repayments can be
a good way of making sure that you get a
get a hold of your financials, particularly if you've got
a whole bunch of things. But I've seen some some
flip sides to consolidating debts, too. I've seen people who,
(05:01):
you know, they've got a couple of car loans and
a couple of big credit card debts, and they roll
it all into their home loan, and then they're financing
a car, which you might turn over every six, seven,
eight years. And they were paying it off over 25 years,
which is not always the right way to do it.
And they don't cut up their credit card when they
roll a $15,000 into their home loan, then they just
(05:21):
go and spend it again. So there are things that
accumulating debt. That's right. So they just, you know, they
consolidate and then re-accumulate that's that's not really a smart, um,
no smart strategy.
Jean Kittson (05:32):
That sounds.
Matthew Ricker (05:33):
Scary. Well, and that's where I think and this has
created a lot of obligations for banks and lenders particularly.
And there's been a lot of good positive evolution in
the industry, which helps lenders understand what people have got
and so that they can help people not get themselves
in over their heads.
Jean Kittson (05:51):
So as we get older and as our elderly loved
ones get older, there's often talk about like selling the
family home and downsizing. So what are your thoughts on
selling the family home? I mean, I know what I
think it depends on the person whether they want to
sell or not. And sometimes there's a tipping point with safety.
(06:11):
Or my parents lived up the top of a hill
and we thought dad was losing his license, and then
we then they wouldn't even be able to go to
the shops without a Sherpa. And and their balcony was
falling off. So we sort of encouraged them to a
retirement village. But if people are making sort of not
stressed decisions, but thinking about their financial position, how would
(06:34):
they make decisions about moving home rather than it, say, downsizing?
Matthew Ricker (06:39):
Yeah. And from a really pragmatic lens, if you let's
say your family home is four bedroom house because you've
had 2 or 3 kids and it's just the two
of you, or even a now just a single person
in their in their retirement, you need probably half that.
You might not need a family room as well as
a formal lounge room. So and those extra rooms that
(06:59):
you've got, they're a burden for you in terms you've
got to clean them or hermetically seal them so that
they don't get they don't get all dusty.
Jean Kittson (07:07):
Sheets over the furniture like the old movie.
Matthew Ricker (07:09):
So they take up, you know, time and effort and
they don't actually give you anything financially. They might give
you a whole bunch of psychological um, benefit, emotional and
emotional benefit, but they don't give you any financial benefit.
So I think that's where downsizing can make really good sense.
Getting into a lower maintenance property environment and also monetizing
(07:32):
the bedrooms that you don't use anymore, and that then
can become an income earning asset rather than a non-income
earning asset for you as a as a retiree. And
I think that that's like I said, again, individual circumstances
are going to going to dictate. But I think there
is a pretty solid logic to downsizing. And you mean.
Jean Kittson (07:51):
Because it frees up.
Matthew Ricker (07:52):
It frees up some capital.
Jean Kittson (07:53):
It frees up some capital. Yeah. So and the downsizing,
then you have to make the decisions. So say you
make a decision about downsizing to free up capital then. Um,
right thing to do with that capital would be get
proper financial advice, right? So get the proper advice from that,
but also make good financial decisions about how you downsize
(08:17):
like what you choose. So what are some of our
choices downsizing and what are the financial implications of that?
Matthew Ricker (08:24):
Yeah, and I think that, again is a really it's
a really good question, Jane, because certainly in Australia and
maybe this will change with some of these proposals around
stamp duty. But turning over property in Australia is an
expensive exercise. You've got your agents cost and then you've
got your stamp duty to buy a new cost. You
don't want to be doing it too many times because
(08:44):
you just burn money. I mean, the government loves it,
but yeah, they do. It doesn't benefit, you know, and
and so I think I'll use my mum's examples when
she downsized. Um, she didn't downsize. She moved to a
mid-sized property when she got divorced. Um, and she had
(09:05):
that for quite a long time. And then she decided
she would move direct to a sort of retirement living
place and rather than move to another sort of non retirement,
and then maybe only a few more years before she
felt that she wanted that infrastructure around her in retirement living.
So that, to me made good sense because she was
sort of really only doing that, that step through the
(09:28):
the next phases of property ownership once rather than potentially twice.
You know, the we did have this conversation about, are
you really is that where you want to.
Jean Kittson (09:36):
Spend another 100 grand to give to the.
Matthew Ricker (09:39):
Government, to give to the government? And is this, you know,
versus is this the right time that you want to
go into a retirement living community as opposed to, you know,
where she lived, you know, a couple with young kids
and one side and sort of similar age person to her,
the other side. And, you know, so she was sort
of a whole neighbors.
Jean Kittson (09:57):
And she had.
Matthew Ricker (09:59):
What you'd call a sort of, you know, a diverse
neighborhood as opposed to in the retirement living places. It's
not that diverse.
Jean Kittson (10:06):
No.
Matthew Ricker (10:06):
So at least not in an age sense.
Jean Kittson (10:08):
No. Absolutely not, absolutely not. And that's a very big consideration.
And I think baby boomers won't want to necessarily make
that decision. But maybe it is going to be about lifestyle.
But the lifestyle only lasts for a certain amount of
time before then. The natural things of aging kick in.
(10:29):
It's about what you need around you to have the
best life possible. As you get older. Your mum like
it in the retirement?
Matthew Ricker (10:37):
Yeah, she loves it. She's a very extroverted person. So.
And the community that she's in, they do lots of
activities together.
Jean Kittson (10:44):
It's interesting, but we sort of persuaded our parents to
downsize for all the reasons I said before. And then
our choice about where they were going to live wasn't
based on finance at all. It was based on what
they could afford. But we hadn't really planned it, so
we hadn't thought about it. They ended up in a
retirement village, which actually was a good financial decision because
(11:08):
they've lived so long. But we didn't realize when we
chose a retirement village that you don't actually own your unit,
you're only sort of leasing it so you can't borrow
any money against the money in the unit. And also
in our in the contract there was no capital gains
and things like that. So when you make these decisions
(11:28):
you really need to know the finances behind it don't you.
In the contracts.
Matthew Ricker (11:33):
Very much so, because that was an education part for me.
And there are a number of different models for retirement living.
There's what you described for your parents, my the where
my mother has gone. She does own the the property.
So she gets a participation in capital gains. But part
of the contract that she has with the operator of
(11:55):
the retirement village is that when she sells it through
whatever reason that she, she sells it, uh, a certain
proportion up to a capped amount they take out of
the sales price and the rest goes to back to her.
And that sort of part of a how they finance
the ongoing maintenance is through the sales at the end,
(12:15):
rather than charging people high monthly fees for the shared facilities, etc..
Jean Kittson (12:20):
And I think when you understand that it makes sense
and you and you make an informed decision about whether
that suits you or not, and.
Matthew Ricker (12:27):
I think, you know, that's it's a real education point,
not just for in this case, you know, your parents,
my parents. It's also for you. I'm not sure about
your situation, Gene, but when my mom made that choice
and she found the place that she was wanted to
go to, when she got all the things, she just
sent them to me and said, radio, you tell me
(12:48):
what I need to do, what it all means.
Jean Kittson (12:50):
I'm really, really guilty because I think I just said,
just sign, which is what I do.
Matthew Ricker (12:57):
Um, so yeah, I wanted to be the, you know,
the good, dutiful son. Yeah. And, uh, um, so I
read it all, but it was a real education for me.
And I must admit, there was elements of it that
I was a little bit sort of horrified at. I thought,
you know, they want to take this much out of the.
And it wasn't until I got myself a little bit
more informed to understand, could I then actually have a
(13:21):
decent conversation with my mum?
Jean Kittson (13:23):
I can't believe it. You're the general manager of a bank. And?
And you were. Did you struggle or you just surprised? No, it.
Matthew Ricker (13:31):
Was, it was. It was more. I was surprised at.
At the model. The model. Yeah. I'd never I'd never
had any cause to, um, to engage with anything. So
I just it was more, you know, when I go,
this is all your hard earned money. So it was again,
like I said, it was just more it was an
education process. And I think that's something that as you're
managing and helping parents do this transition in their life,
(13:55):
there's kind of the pure financial elements. But you've also
got an educational element that you're going through as well
as them. Yeah. And that's certainly my my experience. And
it also plays a role in well, what actually then
is the advice that people are going to need and
also the situation that they're there in. My mum was
reasonably fortunate when she sold her house and she bought
(14:17):
into this, this village. She she was able to it
was kind of like a downsizing. She was able to
take a bit of capital out that topped up her super,
gave her a little bit more to to live on.
But if she had no super and no other investments,
then maybe actually a place where it was more a
lease type arrangement so that she had all of that capital,
(14:40):
at least being able to contribute to the lease or
the rental of a retirement, but give her some then
that may have suited her needs better. But, you know,
or or that individual's needs better. And I think it
comes back to it's it's just so important for people
to get good advice and to really understand the options
that are available to them. Yes. And the cold, hard
(15:03):
reality probably is that if you've got a bit more wealth,
then you've probably got a bigger array of choices, which
in one sense creates more complexity for you because you've
got more choices to make. But at the same time,
that's a nice thing to have these options.
Jean Kittson (15:17):
Can you stay in the family home? I mean, people
talk about reverse mortgages, and I thought they came with
a lot of stigma. There's a lot. But they've changed,
haven't they? Recently?
Matthew Ricker (15:25):
Um, if we go back to the sort of the
advent in Australia of reverse mortgages, I'm kind of reckoning
maybe around 2006, 2007, maybe around that time they did
get a little bit of a bad name. I think
they're they're better understood and better regulated, but certainly where
I've seen them really well used and And now actually
they sort of get renamed, you know, like sort of
(15:47):
equity release and things like that so that people don't,
you know, remember the bad old days.
Jean Kittson (15:51):
All right. Equity release. Um, but.
Matthew Ricker (15:55):
It's certainly really applicable again where people have got their,
their family home and particularly where one of the members
needs to go into care and the other one doesn't. Um,
and they need to put in some money for wherever
the care facility is. The asset rich, cash poor, uh,
reverse mortgage or an equity release product is perfect for
(16:15):
those people because it might be not too many years
down the track that both of them need to be,
and they actually need to then sell the sell the home.
But it enables that to happen. But similarly, there are
other cases where they want to continue with care to
stay in the home, but they need extra help and
extra care, or they need to make some modifications, maybe
wheelchair ramps, things like that. Again, an equity release product,
(16:38):
reverse mortgage product can help because again, they may not
have the the free cash to do the wheelchair ramps
or whatever those modifications might be, but they can still
then stay and stay in their home or pay for
extra services that they might need for that emotional well-being
of in their home.
Jean Kittson (16:56):
Yeah. With all your memories and the familiarity and.
Matthew Ricker (17:00):
Um, and I think that their the way that they're
structured now, the, the likelihood of people ending up where
the loan just accumulates and accumulates and is the property
is not worth as, as much as the loan, I
think is that's.
Jean Kittson (17:16):
Regulated now isn't it.
Matthew Ricker (17:17):
It's sufficiently well regulated. And I mean lenders never wanted
to get into that situation. But, you know, sometimes with
new things in market, there's a rush of blood to
the head. Yeah. Um, and there's good regulation. And I
think that that creates a comfort for people that they're not.
Suddenly people aren't going to knock on somebody's door and say, look,
you know, your.
Jean Kittson (17:37):
House is worth less than you need.
Matthew Ricker (17:39):
You need to move out now, and and you might
not be ready and you're going to have nothing. Um,
so that's, you know, very extreme circumstances would need to
happen for that to be a situation for people. Again,
this is where I have seen some cases that, um,
do create some drama within families that, um, elderly parents
(17:59):
do this. They don't tell their kids, um, their kids
find out later and they're horrified.
Jean Kittson (18:06):
Oh, really?
Matthew Ricker (18:07):
They go.
Jean Kittson (18:07):
You what You mean I've been waiting for that $2
million house, and now it's worth one?
Matthew Ricker (18:13):
Exactly. Yeah. So again, I think, um, there's a lot
of individual nuance to, um, to this whilst there are
multiple options and we've talked about downsizing and, um, reverse
mortgages and the process of downsizing as some of those,
those options. But the advice and the way that that
is navigated within a family, I think is important. And
(18:36):
all family families are different in terms of those expectations.
Jean Kittson (18:40):
Yeah, but there's a lot of our elders who feel
vulnerable and are open to coercion from families. And so,
you know, the advice really is to help your elders
get an independent advisor to lay it all out and
maybe have the whole family there so they understand the situation.
Matthew Ricker (18:59):
Yeah, no, I agree, I think the independence is is
a really important thing to bring in the room, whether
we like it or not. We've all got biases and objectives,
whether they're conscious or subconscious. Yes. Not always just about finance. No.
I know again, just using my mum's example, I'm not
sure about about your parents. Jean, when she went and
had a look at the place that she was looking at,
(19:21):
they didn't just try and sell her in there. They
did give her a whole bunch of questions. And, you know,
there was a almost like a booklet that she had
to read through.
Jean Kittson (19:29):
And you read for her? No, no.
Matthew Ricker (19:30):
She actually read this.
Jean Kittson (19:31):
Bit.
Matthew Ricker (19:32):
Oh, right. But before she said, you know, should I
sign the contract, she read this thing. And that was
actually why she she became adamant that this was the
place that she needed to go to was because it
had asked her a lot of questions and and the
answers that that she came up with for herself were
such that, yeah, this is going to be the right
thing for me. Some of those other elements became secondary
(19:52):
because it was right for her, which actually helped me go, okay, well,
if this is what she thinks is right for her, well,
then let's just make sure that the financial aspects of
this are net positive for for her or are going
to be at least not detrimental for her.
Jean Kittson (20:08):
That's a really good point. I think we were all
in a bit of a panic. It was before, you know,
I wrote my book about this because and that's why
I wrote the book, because there's so much that I
didn't help with correctly. And we were sort of making
these mistakes. So the family home got sold before anyone
had decided where they wanted to go. So then we
(20:29):
were under this time constraint and running around. There's so
many different sorts of retirement villages, so many different costs.
So all this takes time. It's quite important to have
these conversations early on. Well, like you said then, you know,
before people retire, even just to have a plan of
how they see themselves and whether they are, um, comfortable
(20:51):
with maybe remortgaging or refinancing and whether and you know,
how the kids are going to handle it or how
you're going to handle your kids. And because I suppose
another element to keep in mind, and I got told
this by other people, is that if you downsize, that
might limit the number of visits you get from your
(21:14):
kids and grandchildren because they haven't got somewhere to stay. Yeah.
Matthew Ricker (21:18):
And I think that's one of the real positive cases
for things like reverse mortgages where people they want to
keep those extra bedrooms because they have a family that
wants to engage, you know, they utilize the bigger the
bigger house for the family dos and, uh, and so forth,
but they can't actually keep up with the upkeep, um,
(21:39):
unless they have a bit of extra income. So, um,
doing that can can make a lot of sense, you know,
or and this is perhaps, you know, more an earlier
retirement rather than a later retirement. There's a growing part
of Australian early retirees that are childcare.
Jean Kittson (21:55):
Actually, they have to have to two.
Matthew Ricker (21:57):
Working, two working parents. And so they need the extra
space because they've got a their one of their grandkids
after school, before school or after school or you know,
when they're really young, maybe the whole day that's it
seems like an exhausting thing in your retirement, but most.
Jean Kittson (22:12):
People I know now who are grandparents do a lot
of at least three days a week because their kids
are got two jobs, you know, their son or daughter
and their partner. They're all working. And not only that,
there's sort of this image that, you know, baby boomers
are going to are just out there spending the kids inheritance.
But often we become the bank of mum and dad,
(22:34):
often more often than not now. So I think getting
the right financial advice about how to manage that without
compromising your care as you age and then ending up
relying on government funding, how to work all that out,
how much you can, you know, give your kids and
all that is, is really important. And it's quite complex,
(22:57):
I think.
Matthew Ricker (22:57):
Yeah. And I think that is that's another reality that
the quality of care you might get is going to
be different, private versus public funded. If you're making a
contribution and you've got a bit more of a say
in what happens.
Jean Kittson (23:12):
Yeah. And it may not be the quality because there's
great quality care in even the most humble of places
and with people of humble means. But it certainly gives
you more choice. And what happens for my parents is that,
and I can see this, is that they have the
care that a provider by the home care packages. But
(23:35):
the retirement village has their own nurses and they can
pay for that. Extra mum needs ointments in her eyes
four times a day. So instead of that coming out
of the package, which would be really costly, they just
pay for that themselves out of what they've got in
their passbook, which they still have still got a passport,
they've still got a passport and try to get a
(23:55):
statement for a passport. You can't. But so if you
know how to manage and you have some free cash
and you know how to manage your finances, everything else easier,
not even. It doesn't even have to be the amount.
It's just, you know how. It's just understanding where your
finances are and what you really need to just add
(24:17):
that extra, extra support. Yeah.
Matthew Ricker (24:19):
And I think that's that's another part of the whole
advice element is there's so many little quirks to this
and how you can access benefits and so on that.
If you don't have an advisor then you'll actually end
up missing out on a bunch of benefits. And also
even particularly as you go into retirement and early post-retirement,
(24:41):
the way that you set yourselves up, what you have
in super, what you might have outside of super. All
of these things matter as to what you might be
able to get through part pension or, um, concessions on
things and all these little things can add up to,
to actually create more choices for people in. And that
(25:02):
enables them to be living how they would like to live.
Jean Kittson (25:05):
Um, yes, exactly.
Matthew Ricker (25:07):
As opposed to just sort of being an uninformed participant
in their circumstance.
Jean Kittson (25:11):
Right. Well, that's right. And also, there was one more
step I wanted to talk about sometimes. I know we
talked about stamp duty and being, you know, really difficult
for people. And it means just that lost money. But
sometimes that step from the family home to downsizing is
really important because everyone wants to age in place, and
(25:33):
maybe that is the right place. If you've got good
family support and you feel safe and you're in a
community that is already familiar to you and people are nearby,
then just downsizing might be the right way to go flat,
you know, just into a semi.
Matthew Ricker (25:48):
Single level.
Jean Kittson (25:49):
Rather than stairs level. I know it says me who
lives with numbers of flights of stairs and who's already thinking, oh,
how much is a lift? Or should we just sell that? Yeah.
Matthew Ricker (26:03):
Yeah. Um, I think that, that that is also, again,
a really important part of the consideration set is being
able to either be in the community that you choose,
and that might be the one that you're currently in,
because you've got all your buddies who are downsizing and
staying in the same area and for others. And again,
this was the case for for my mum, where she
(26:25):
chose was near where my sister lives, because that's that
was the important community aspect for her. Was that.
Jean Kittson (26:31):
Proximity. Well, yeah. Well, if you live as long as
my parents, the community doesn't last as long as you do. Yeah.
Matthew Ricker (26:37):
Yeah. As we we talked about before, the having all
the right people involved in those discussions I think is important. Yeah.
It keeps everybody on the same page. Um.
Jean Kittson (26:49):
Thank you.
Matthew Ricker (26:51):
Thanks for having me, Jane.
Jean Kittson (26:52):
Well, that was another episode with so much information, but
I suppose the key takeaways are post-retirement living. It's different
for everybody. It looks different for everybody. But planning for
the transition from a working life to a retired life
is absolutely essential. Don't let your elders put off having
these conversations. The other point is that it's important that
(27:15):
your elder comes to a decision about where they want
to live with all the information they need to make
good decisions to make an informed decision. So once again,
you to make that decision, you may need the advice
of a professional and this with good advice you will.
It'll make everything much easier. There are also lots of
different options for financing post-retirement living. You know you can
(27:39):
sell the family home. We heard you can reverse mortgage you.
It's important to consolidate debt. It's important, if you possibly can,
to have no debt. There's superannuation. There's pensions. Again, planning
is the key. And again, the right knowledgeable professional advice
is really important. Retirement villages all have different models of
(28:00):
costs and fees and financing. So once again, if you're
good with contracts and you're good with fine print, go ahead.
But otherwise get some expert advice. The advice you need
post-retirement will be different to the advice that you'll be
given pre-retirement. So engage the right professionals who can see
(28:24):
you know the can, who have the skills to be
able to advise you on both those areas and can
see what a transition looks like and have experience in that.
Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast series,
Parenting Up with Australian Unity. I've really enjoyed chatting to
all these wonderful experts, and I hope their knowledge and
(28:46):
experience has helped you to support your loved ones and
make sure they are healthy, safe, independent and most importantly,
happy for as long as possible. Thank you. The information
(29:12):
provided in this episode of Parenting Up is general in
nature and does not consider your personal circumstances. Australian unity
accepts no responsibility for the accuracy of any opinions, advice,
representations or information contained in this podcast. Listeners should rely
(29:32):
on their own independent advice and inquiries when making decisions
affecting their own or their loved ones finances, health, wellbeing
or other interests.