February 23, 2024 • 33 mins
Patriots.com’s Matt Smith hosts a roundtable with Fred Kirsch, Paul Perillo and Mike Dussault breaking down episodes three and four of Apple TV Plus’s exclusive 10-part documentary event, The Dynasty: New England Patriots. In these episodes the Patriots ascend to the top of the NFL with three titles in four years but find the national narrative around them changing during a controversial 2007 season.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's time for another episode of Patriots Dynasty doc Recap.
As we do a wrap up show of the Patriots
Dynasty documentary, Matt Smith along with Fred Kirsh Paul Perillo
like to so it's episodes three and four.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
We've seen the.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Patriots win their first Super Bowl, but before we get
to them winning their first super Bowl, there was a
look back at a coach that took them to their
second super Bowl in franchise history. Fred, were you surprised
when you saw Bill Parcell pop up on.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
News a little bit? Yeah, like, oh wow, they got
Bill Parcell's you know, and that goes you know, they
did a lot of work on this thing. It was
good to see him, and I think that he got
right to the point that they took away the draft
to me and there was no way I was coming
back to the Patriots. But you know, I think from
a story storytelling standpoint, they wanted to go back and
(01:01):
show you know, Crafts first go around with the team.
It didn't end well with a great coach and it
was a learning experience for Craft, but I thought that
was really cool to see him on camera now, not
back then, but now talking about it.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
And as the years have gone by, we've been led
to believe that the border war is over. Right now,
this is Darth Vader on the phone and everything's honky dorry.
It really isn't honky dorry if you listen to what
Bill Parcells is. I was not coming back as a
Patriot once they took the draft away from it, right
that was it.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I was done.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I thought this was kind of oddly placed. I didn't
really feel like this had much of a place in
the dynasty, understanding that the team itself, the players themselves,
a lot of them were parcels guys that they come
from those drafts. But you know, the Border war being
over was that was after no I know this. Yeah.
(01:56):
Like so when Parcells says I wasn't coming back, that
was in ninety seven. I'm saying didn't end until long.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
I know, But Parcells said it now, So you would
think that, like throughout all this time, maybe he you know, because.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
This is what I don't like about it, That's what
that's what you think. Parcells thinks he was right. Kraft
thinks he was right, No, I know, but anything to
do with the story. Really, I just thought it was odd.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I know. But since then, like Parcells has said, you know,
I did some things and he's kind of softened it.
But in this documentary we're talking about that, he made
no bones about it. I like that. I like that
he you know, that was the case back then. Like
now I've softened. I like Robert Kraft. Now we're friends,
blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
But at that time they've moved on, ye all.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
But clearly he's not.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
He's not.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
He's not going back on that, and they took the
draft away. That they took the draft away, and I
like hearing that twenty four years later or more thirty
years later, you know, that was that was cool.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
They took the draft away from me with somebody that
didn't know what he was doing.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
He was very pointed, Well, it wasn't. He was not
sorry talking about Robert Craft. He was talking about other people.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
No, no, no, they wasn't talking about Robert Craft.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
He was talking about Bobby probably Andy.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Right, And he was right.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
It's funny to me though, because this is one of
the great debates of like this, Bill Parcells belonging to
the Patriots Hall of Fame. Is he part of the
story of the dynasty, Well, as far as this document
is concerned, yes, he is.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
They took the draft. Well, who drafted all those great guys?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Probably think Bill Parcells.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
They didn't after they took it from him.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, okay, there aren't. Andy after he got the draft
taken away from him. Terry Gleam was the only one
who did anything. And would you get a year out
of him? I mean, I mean the results speak for themselves.
So so you know the tie laws, the Teddy Bruski's,
those were all parcels.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
So they took one pick away from them.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
They took one draft away from him. That's it.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
They took one.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Then he left, they took one, and then they had
three years of terrible drafts.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Well, let's not again.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
This is proving my point that it didn't belong to
the story. It's useless.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So, Paul, I'm gonna come back to you because I
think one of the things that I heard you talk
about that was impressive to you in this episode is
Teddy Bruski really kind of defining from a culture standpoint,
who will best embodied the patriot way and what was that.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah, And he talked about Drew and his selfless attitude
and sort of accepting as one hundred million dollar quarterback
that it's not always going to work out for you,
but you have to kind of do what's best for
the team. And the thing that really stuck out to
me is, obviously, I'm the Drew guy here on this panel,
and I am not embarrassed by that. I wear that
that proudly. I even as a Drew guy, had always
(04:37):
sort of been under the impression Drew did what he
had to do to get by and not upset the
apple cart too much. I don't think it was perfect
behind the scenes. I think Drew had his problems, but
what Bruski is telling you is, considering the circumstances, he
was pretty perfect behind the scenes, like he could have
been an enormous disruption. And yes he was disappointed. Yes,
(04:59):
earlier in in the in the in the I think
one of episode one or two, he said, no, you know,
the shins off the nickel, I'm going to get my
job back now, right. So, yes, he always had that
mindset and he wanted to play in the super Bowl,
but he didn't destroy everything, and he could have.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
And you know, he did go to Robert Kraft and
he did bitch to Robert Craft, and Robert Kraft went
to Bill. So he did do that, But he could
have made it a lot worse. Right, he could have
made it a lot worse.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I thought Bruski's comment like that was kind of the
Patriot Way was born.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Teams stunning first stunning to me.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
I mean, you know, when you never point in Drew's direction,
and when you talk about the Patriot Way, and I
know that that's, you know, term that that some people like,
some people don't. But for him to point to Drew,
I just I found that incredible. And but but I
think he was right, you know, and I had never
heard that.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
No, neither did I.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Right, And I will tell you, And they recount this,
and Drew does a really good job of recounting it.
I remember being outside of Belichick's office. We were told,
have a crew outside of Belichick's office. He's going to
make a decision. He's bringing Tom and Drew and he's
going to inform the decision. And they both walk out.
They both go their separate ways, and Drew was pissed,
and he said he was pissed. What's interesting to me
is with all the evidence that he had of how
(06:09):
Tom had sort of taken over and they won all
these games. I came into the SC Championship game. I
studied the ship. We're here at the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Why aren't I the starter? And as he said, that.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Was a bitter pill to swallow.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
Yeah, that was I mean even during a flipping it over,
I mean even during the game after they won the
Super Bowl. That the footage of of Drew and Tom's
interaction and you can just kind of feel that resignation
and Drew of like, yes, I'm happy, I'm happy for
the team.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
You're the man, Tom, You're the man twelve. You're the
man twelve.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
There's another interesting thing that happened in that first Super
Bowl that I think a lot of people enjoy here
in New England. We saw bon Jovie talk about it,
how we got chills in seeing the Patriots introduced as
the team.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Paul right.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But I but that whole story of how it happened,
I found is interesting because, as you guys know, because
you were here, they did that periodically. I think they
some people think they did it every single week during
the two thousand and one season. It started when they lost.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
To the Big definitely did it in Cincinnati, right, Yeah,
and so.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It became newsworthy because they did it on this stage.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Right. And what did you think of that whole moment? Well,
you know, remembering what it was like back then, I
loved it. And I you have some insight on this.
I thought it was a decision that the league was
pushing them to go out as individuals, and they made
a decision right there that no, no, no, we're not doing that.
(07:38):
But you know more than I did.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, I can just tell you what his perspective is
in an interview that I did hit him. Bill Belichick
in an interview with him in twenty sixteen, and he
said the league came to him midweek and said, Bill,
we need to know is it offense or defense that's
coming out. We've got a minute thirty scripted in here
for you to introduce a team. He goes, we need
fifteen seconds. We're going out as a team. And the
person the legal I don't think you understand. This is
(08:02):
the Super Bowl and you have to designate whether you
want your offense or defense to go out. And Bill goes,
I don't think you understand it. You can do whatever
you want. We're going out as a team, and we
need fifteen seconds and Bill was the one. Now was
that not communicated to Teddy Bruski because Bruski seemed surprised
in the documentary when he goes I heard a scream
in the back. Teddy's got a nice flare for the
dramatic too. I heard a scream come from behind and say, no,
(08:26):
we're going out as a team. And it just sort
of really romanticized the whole thing, which I thought was good.
But I think they knew they were going out as
a team on Wednesday. If it's the latest, Yeah, I like,
who knows, Like obviously you know what you know. But
maybe Bruske didn't. Maybe they were hearing, Oh, the league's
gonna make us go out as individuals. We want to
(08:47):
we don't want to do that.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Maybe up until that point the team wasn't or at
least Bruski wasn't sure that they were gonna be able
to do it. And then he heard that and it
was like, Oh, we're going at it as a team,
you know. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
I think there's another edite team to get.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Teddy Bruski on one of the later wrap up shows and.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Ask him, right.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I think there's another entity that was played here, and
that's television because Fox did the game that might have
been Fox's first Super Bowl by the way, and they're
used to this is going to be a big show.
We're going to introduce these guys individually, and they were saying, no,
not as a team. This is boring. It's not as exciting.
We want ray Lewis dancing out into the center. We
want Marshall Foch doing all that stuff. You guys remember
(09:26):
Gary Gridecci. I think Gary Gridecky who was on the
field in that position. They were scrambling still a little
bit like the league still at the at the eleventh
hour was pushing no, you guys need to be and.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
That might have been part of it, like the players
weren't sure that we were going to be able to
still do it. They were going to force us to
do it, but they they stood true and I love that.
I mean, I hope they never give that up. You know,
I know we have a new regime here and it's drawed,
and you know, maybe they look at it an opportunity
(09:58):
to redoce some things and change the way they get it.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I hope they they continue to come out as a team. Right,
you're watching and listening to Patriots Dynasty doc recap. As
we're talking about the Patriots Dynasty documentary, and as they
end episode three, super Bowl thirty eight is kind of
an aftermath. They show a field goal maybe oh yeah,
they want to.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Right thousand check out podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I appreciate that they spend a little bit more time
on super Bowl thirty nine, but they use super Bowl
thirty nine the way well, but they use that to
say that here's where the addiction comes into play, and
that both Pioli and Bruski Mike talk about the narcotic
of winning and how you'll do almost anything to win,
(10:46):
which Matt Hamat checked. The director and the Dynasty team
do a very good job of a cliffhanger because where
they're going for episode for well.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
They're going to Spygate and the Lean Years, the ten
year Lean Years. I was surprised, I mean, the twenty
one game win streak, you know, just I don't know.
I think that that point could have been made a
little bit better about what kind of made this team special,
because especially you know, coming off this two thousand and
three stuff that that I did, that we all did that,
you know, celebrating twenty years of that season. You know,
you remember how special those teams were. And I think
that that's just, you know, something that's getting kind of
(11:16):
left in the wash because we're trying to tell a
bigger story here.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
You know, we're trying to tell Like you said, Matt,
this was not about who these teams kind of were.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
This was about the bigger picture of how this team
began to view the league and how the league began
to view them, and what kind of came to transpire
a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Fred, what I mean, so my kid on that, if
you're a football purist, this might be that's not Matt
Hammichick's style in this. Yeah, Matt Hammachick's style in this
is to accentuate the drama the director. Yeah, but there
was drama that they overlooked.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I totally agree, Fred, this is a big miss to me.
They missed a lot of drumas they missed.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Harrison Maloy.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Harrison Maloy, the cutting his hands. Brian Kinchin, do you
remember how much tension there was going into that Super Bowl?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Right, yeah, I mean this team hates their coach with
Tom Jackson, hunts, you know, all that stuff. They they
I get it, you only have so much time you
have to make editorial choices.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
But that was a big thing. I couldn't agree more.
The Lawyer Malloy thing alone could have been fifteen minutes.
I mean, that was an enormous thing. Tom Brady. So
we come off of a couple of episodes where Tom
Brady's explaining how he went to quarterback school with the
head coach and how instrumental the two were. The next year,
he's growing a beard in protest of his coach. They
(12:36):
boycotted the coach to the point where Tom Jackson is
saying they hate him. Right, drama nothing, Yeah, we got
nothing on that. So we can set up spygate. And
I'm not saying they shouldn't have done spygate.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Well they should have done twelve episodes. Well that's what
I mean. They won.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I don't even think it has to be just a
football purist. They won twenty one games in a row.
It was it's a record, right, and we don't even
hear it. They didn't even mention it.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So the underbelly of This Dynasty comes into full fruition
in episode four and it's Spygate. Well, Fred, how did
you think that they handled that?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I thought they did a good job. I mean, if
you're looking for like stuff that you didn't know before,
you're not going to get it. Like Ernie Adams, they
interview him, He's not going to tell you anything. Bill's
not going to tell you anything, you know. And I
think there's a lot of people that they didn't talk
to that we think maybe they should have such as well,
(13:33):
like they didn't talk to Bears Nazarian, who is right
by Bill. They didn't talk to any of the video people,
you know, they you know, like there's a lot of
people that were involved that they didn't talk to. And players,
Like what did you guys think about all this? Brady? Brady,
maybe they asked him and he refused to answer, and
they didn't put it.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
In, but they not sure they got the Belichick question
and to ask him.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
They didn't have not one comment from Brady on Spygate.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
You have one more guy, yeah, Eric Mangini, Yeah, Like
how do we not hear from him? You know, this
is another part I'm sort of I went in with
kind of modest expectations of the whole project, and then
was really encouraged the way it started. And I'm sort
of kind of declining here as we get further along.
And this is one of the things you said it, Fred,
(14:18):
did you learn anything? Nope? And I don't think someone
you know, Johnny Appleseed and des Moin and Iowa didn't
learn anything about spot Well no, but this spygate that
they gave us is stuff that absolutely everybody knows.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
But but well you say that, but and we're in it.
But there's a lot of people who were just becoming
NFL fans, are very casual fans of the time that
I think will find, you know, this episode intriguing.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Well, but that's a history lesson for someone who didn't
experience it. I'm saying, someone who experienced the NFL, I
know six knows everything that they But I think.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
You know, again, the craft of this I think did
a really really good job here, you know, starting out
with that cop from New York who was at the
meadowlands that day and inclusion, I really do why Well,
he starts off by talking about how he was undercover
with the mob and you know for many, many years
(15:14):
and even though you're with all these bad guys, you
had to betray them. That was your job. And even
then it made him feel bad, you know, like I
had to get out, Like I just didn't feel good
about myself because of all the betrayal I had to do. Okay,
why are we talking about this? Well, now you find
out later on when the Manginie part of the story
(15:35):
comes up, and it's very clear that Ernie Adams and
other people in the organization felt that Manginie betrayed them.
He ratted them out. Who said, had somebody used those
words peoli?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I think, when you leave, don't don't don't make a mess.
Don't make a mess. It's family. It's family, when you leave,
don't make a mess.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
And so that's why I thought tying in that cop
story made sense to me.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Only if you're going to talk to Mangini. Well, otherwise
maybe they tried, but then you should say something you
like to acknowledge it somehow.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
That's they weren't doing those editorial notes. That wasn't the.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Style, you know, thinks.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
But you know the other thing that they didn't really
touch on that we know is that Mangini went to
the Jets and just that mere action said that he
was a trader like you could go anywhere in the world.
But at that time and probably still to this day,
but especially Bill hated the Jets by the way they
(16:37):
talked about him on the way out of New York.
And you want to talk about border war, there was
a huge border war with the Patriots and the Jets,
even after Parcels left there. And the fact that Marginie
left here for any other team would have been okay,
but he went to the Jets and that really pissed
Bill off. And then he does this.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
That was his first mistake, just take accepting that job.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Right, And then he does this, and as Ernie Adams said,
and I don't feel I'm taking all the oxygen out
of the room. But as Ernie Adams said, we weren't
doing anything that anyone else wasn't doing. We just did
it in a different way, in a better way. And
I know people were videotaping us.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Ernie said that, Mike, were you surprised at how you know?
Ernie said, he said, look, some of you shing you
have to take to their grave, right. But seconds later
in the documentary he sort of justified the act. Were
you surprised by.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
That, No, because I still felt like kind of pauled it,
like I don't gel like we're dancing around it. And
I still, you know, and again as a fan who
really was I don't know what the word would be.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I was devastated when this all happened.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Like I was, you know, a sky high Patriots fan
at the time, and oh my gosh, I'm so excited
for this season, and you know, to be to be
totally frank watching these first four episodes, the first two,
it was a reminder of what a joy and a
thrill it was early on. And the Spygate episode was
a reminder of some of the crap that you put
up with as a fan that you didn't really want
to be defending the wall or having to say everyone,
(18:05):
your team's a cheater, your team's a cheater.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
It sucked. It sucked as a Patriots fan.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
And and I'll tell you I was online fighting the
good fight just like a lot of people were. So
I was a little bit disappointing. I think what I
would always love to hear, and I would love to
hear just Ernie Adams, what do you do? What do
you do with this footage, Like, you know, I would
really like to know just what do you do?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
What is the point?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And I mean, I think the thing that I always
got to is that you know, they're trying to bake teams.
Note we're doing this.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
You have to change your signals and you're constantly putting
another team on. I never really bought that, like in
game they were doing it. But I'm still wondering the
same exact things I was wondering in two thousand and
seven as to why you would do this and was
it widespread and taping or you know, what was everybody doing?
Like what you know what I mean, like what was
the exact mechanism that all these teams were playing for?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
This was probably a hobby, yeah, oh, I know, probably
like a game for him, right, like we're screwing with
other teams.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
We're making it hard on them. They know we're doing it.
They're kind of doing it too, like you know, I
just I don't think anyone can as ever explained.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
He's like bringing in the Native Americans in World War
two and deciphering the Japanese codes. You know, yeah, just
like that, you know, But for Ernie, it was like
this was fun for.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Him, So I guess I would. I would sort of
summarize my thoughts on these two, you know, like so
because of the controversies, which was so juicy, we had
to gloss over two titles in a twenty one game
winning streak, not to mention other drama that Fred talked about,
and you give us nothing like okay, so you didn't
(19:33):
get Mangini. How about Mike Tannembaum. How about somebody who
can offer me some sort of perspective as to why
and how this happened instead of I'm going to take
it to my grave and I already talked about that
in the past. That's the comments you got from the
Patriots on the record I'm taking it to my grave,
from Ernie, Adams and Belichick telling you I've already talked
(19:53):
about it.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I do think Ernie just to add one thing, and
I think Ernie justified it that everybody was doing it.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
But that's what they said then. I know that it
was done to us. I don't remember him. I don't
remember him saying I'll take it to my grave then,
but they said everybody else is doing it, I was
saying it.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I do think they also that the the people who
put the document together. Fred talked a couple of times
here about the craft c R A f t of
putting this together. And I thought some of the audio
montages that they did where you heard national voices, sometimes recognizable.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Sometimes locals.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Spygate one was really good. Those were really, really well done.
It wasn't you know whoever saying these guys are cheaters.
It was the national media talking at wit about these
guys they're cheaters.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
My favorite ones just.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Credit what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, the Fox one one Bradshaws, like you know, and
this calls into question Jimmy Johnson's at the.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
End, Well forget I didn't use this one, but Scott
Pelley at the time anchored the CBS Evening News, and
I'll never forget listening to him. Are the New England
Patriots cheaters?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
He led off to broadcast with that different scamp. Okay,
you know, I was gonna say, Paul, just a piggyback
on what you said. The the Jimmy Johnson thing with
with Terry Bradshaw was a great cut I thought was
they went back and they showed Bradshaw next to Bill
to one of the Super.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Bowls and kind of hugging him, and.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
I just thought that was a great, great cut, great
you know, just illustration of how things it's said exactly
what they were trying to say. They went from the darlings,
the underdogs, the you know, the sweethearts of the NFL,
to now the villains and uh.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Next level nerd and next level nerd my excellent observation.
One of the thing that I remember at the time,
the big deal that was the armand Katayan interview. Oh wow,
armand Katayan is gonna sit down and talk with Bill.
This is the one time. And I remember at the
time thinking, gee, I don't think there was really much there.
I thought Katayan did a really good job holding his
(21:52):
feet to the fire. I think he did to His
questions were really solid.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Yeah he didn't and he didn't let him go. No,
you know, he wouldn't, you know, he pushed back.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I think he did it both be true, there wasn't
much there because Bill as always does a great job
of just giving you the farm stiff arm but Army
Katayan asked every relevant question you could ask, right, And.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I think for Patriot fans that were fans during that period,
or people who were new uh to the fandom watching
that interview, and they ran a considerable amount of it
in episode four. I think that that's pretty, you know,
very very interesting use.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Of that old footage.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I thought that was terrific.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, okay, so what was the reaction to Spygate. You know,
the national media has labeled the team as cheaters, and
the documentarians did, in my opinion, an excellent job of
introducing the guy that was gonna make it all go away,
and that was Randy Moss. Fred What did you think
is all that?
Speaker 4 (22:48):
I thought that was one of the most dramatic moments
of the first four episodes. First four episodes is when
they said, you know, we needed that, you know guy
that would I forget the exact word that opened up
the field, that playmaker. And then they pan over and
it's just Randy Moss looking into the camera and it's like,
you got chills because you know what happened immediately on
(23:10):
this team when he came on it.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
So I looked at it in it was It was
an interesting because when when they're giving you all those
collages of all the national people kicking the crap out
of Belichick in particular, but the Patriots to Mike's point
of that's where the defending the wall started. You know,
Michael Holly, who's you know, been around forever and very
been very close to his team. He says the rules
(23:34):
don't apply to them. Yeah, and I think Bill looked
at and said, yeah, f you right way. Do you
see what we got for you next year? And that's
where this panning of to Moss comes from, And like
you get like a peek inside of what must have
been going on in Bill's minds, like, oh, oh, we
have to cheat to do this. Wait, do you see
(23:55):
what we're going on you this year?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And I wrote down when I was what they went
to war they went.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To and the recreation of the deal Mike, where they
went back and forth with Moss and Belichick. And we've
talked earlier that it doesn't look like maybe this was
the most important thing on Bill's dance card at the
time to do this interview. But I think you saw
a little glimpse of he actually enjoyed talking about how
that deal went down.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I mean, give me more Randy Moss and Bill Belichick,
Like can they.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Do a sitcom together?
Speaker 5 (24:22):
I mean, anytime in history there's been interactions of those
two guys. It's hilarious and I mean it's Randy, but
I thought that was one of the times that Bill,
you know, opened up a little bit, was a little
bit of storyteller Bill, And I mean just you know,
for me again as a fan, remember Sonny McClain's Santa
Monica bar watching Week one against the Jets, in that
first play that Randy talked about where.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Me and Paula are looking at each other doing that.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
Oh my gosh, I mean it was you know, it
was it was so exciting, and I mean it's just
it just brings me back.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
As a fan to what a season that was.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
I mean, everything good, everything bad. It was like you
just can't even really explain it. You know, every week
they're hanging fifty points on teams. You know, I remember
like them talking about all the Bengals can take, you know,
like each week you.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Kind of talk yourself into one team.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
But I I I thought they did a good job,
you know, just capturing the the f you mentality of that.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I loved. I loved Moss's comment about family. You know,
that was something that was really looking for. Yeah, you know,
that was something I was really looking for. And then
just an assault you're talking about, you know, Sonny McLean's
just selfishly. Those are big show days for me. Those
were ei days with Glenn Woodway and that crew, and
I would go in and like you, I don't know,
like I don't know why they're running up to score
every week. I mean, it's just seemed like Joe Gibbs,
(25:33):
you know, a guy three Super Bowls were running up
the score every week, and I was just what do
he was soccer mom, That's what they used to call me,
the soccer man. Like, they're not running up the score.
You gotta stop. Oh, oh contraire because Teddy Brusky comes
in and tells you flat out we were running up
the score and why because bb was pissed.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, that was really insightful. I like war comment lest
anyone think differently as to what they were doing. I
thought Bruskie yieled it.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
And the other thing I thought that was pretty poignant
was how the team thought about Bill. Bill was getting
his ass kicked. Yep, they were kicking the crap out
of him, you know, from weft coast to West coast,
you know, uh, they were, they were killing him. But
the team rallied around him. And he was ours, he's ours.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
How do we feel about playing for Bill Belichick? Robert
was one of the ours.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right, And Robert Craft also accentuated that by you know,
Moss talked about family and how we mentioned that to
Robert Craft, and Craft himself said, we were here. We
were here to protect Bill's reputation, and we wanted to
protect Bill's reputation and that's why, Hey, find me, find him,
don't you have to do. Don't suspend him.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Okay, we're gonna rally around him and we're gonna protect
him on this. Yeah, and the team did right, so
like crazy, and then back to the you know, like
the way that season unfolded, and it was early on
when they just started laying waste to everybody, right, I
was thirty eight, fourteen thirty. They were averaging again, you know, yeah,
well like ten weeks into the season, they were averaging
forty four points a game, not like three weeks in,
(27:09):
you know, and you started saying, this team can go undefeated.
And it was about halfway through. You know, Andy Hart,
who used to work with us, was before that.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
We were doing the show in here and ESPN was
on the monitor, and all of a sudden the scroll
and there was a tab for Paige.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Patriots undefeated and real ticker. Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
They got their own tab.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So we start country. We start talking like that, right,
and we're talking in those terms, and you're like, well,
I wonder what the tea What was the team thinking?
They started playing another one Bite to the Dust in
the locker room, which was phenomen after after games, more
great footage. Oh yeah, you know with Teddy going over,
you know, and we had heard it, Fred, you and
I because the biggest game that year by far was
(27:49):
at Indy. You know that that November sweets kind of
game where both teams are always the top of the league.
Brady Manning Cults are up ten in the fourth quarter,
they come back and they get two touchdowns and they
win the game, and they're rocking another one Bites the
Dust on the plane on the way home. Now, Fred
and I are thinking at the time, we probably shouldn't
talk about it. I probably don't want this out there.
(28:09):
Little do they know they were doing it in the
locker room every every week, after every game.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And the other thing that made me realize is how
grateful I am for Teddy Brusk because you know how
tough it is to play for Bill, and if you
don't have somebody like Teddy who can do that, you know,
despite Bill, no one would ever be able to play here.
You needed a guy like that to keep it, even
to give the other side, to tell the other guys
(28:36):
it's okay, it's okay, we can celebrate.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
It's a really good point.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Thank God for guys like Rabel and Teddy Bruske to
be on this team.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
So those are the highlights of episode four. And we
all know how episode four has to end. God, and
that was the low light. But even with the low light,
there was a couple of shining examples. I thought, Paul
you and I talked about this. I thought Strahan was
un believable.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
I thought he was really really good.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And Fred you talked about Bruski. I thought Teddy really
brought the whole thing full circle. We're witnessing that today
where Patrick Mahomes is talking about, you know, jeez, are
we are we venturing into Patriots territory here where people
are sick of us because we're winning, and Bruski talked
about you know they Straighthan made a great point about
(29:24):
how they just had to pressure.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Tom all the time, and Tom was getting.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
The crap kicked out of him and then said right right,
And then Bruski talked about he saw the other sideline
and Fred, you know how impressed with you and how
he brought that whole thing absolutely and the way he's
you know, like, we saw that. You know, we've been there,
we saw that. And he says like, oh shit, because
he knew that's us. He immediately we know what happens
(29:49):
when that happens to the other team.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
He immediately put him, this is two thousand and one.
They're us two thousand and one. Oh shit, oh shit,
I know what that feels like. And I know, I
think he said, I know, I know what they feel. Yeah,
And the Giants didn't think they were underdogs. No, And
the Giants, if you recall, showed up at that Super
Bowl wearing a black because they were coming for a funeral.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
And I don't know who the announcer was in the
documentary that says it at the time, he said, you know,
if the Giants win this game, it's a great story
of you know, the underdog beating Goliath. But if the
Patriots win this game and go nineteen oh, it's it'll
be a holy moment in the NFL, and I couldn't
agree more. Had the Patriots won that game, it would
it would have been something to this day. We be,
(30:37):
you know, the greatest team time, right, and it got
taken away, And I thought Jonathan Kraft I was just
gonna say go ahead, No.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
I think the reaction.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Of course, I would have liked to have heard more
from Bill, but I'm not expecting that Bill was Bill
when they asked him about it. Jonathan Craft, I thought
was very poignant and gave a different perspective about walking
into that.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Locker room and what was that look like? Mike, Yeah,
how did that?
Speaker 4 (31:03):
How did you take that?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
And I also want to ask you your thought on
because I thought Tom, while not completely revelatory, gave you
a little glimpse into what his life was like after
that loss.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Yeah, I think you know, as a fan, that's what
I think you love as hearing Tom Brady has the
same feel like I mean he said in it. You know,
I was just watched it the other day. There were
guys around waited to catch the tyree, you know, like
they were feeling the same thing you were. And I
think that's what's great about sports as a fan is
you have this kind of sense of shared experience and
so you know, it doesn't really help. But seeing Tom
kind of still have those feelings and that angst about it,
(31:36):
it just shows you how you're all kind of in
it together. So I really like that, and I thought,
you know, just I was. I was kind of shocked,
to be honest, with what Jonathan said about you know,
guys thrown up.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I mean, you know that intensity.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
I mean I've heard other stories from you guys of
you know, things metaled out afterwards and you know, guys
kind of made peace with it.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
But it's the worst less in NFL history. There's no
other way to put it.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
It was unintentionally great by him because he likes to
think of another way to put it. Already did it?
You know, well, I don't know really how to describe it.
You know, you walk in, you see guys sob grown
men sobbing, and guys throwing up, and we all watched
it together.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
We like you just described it. That was it Another
thing that I had never heard that, you know, that
was the reaction in the locker room because but you know,
Super Bowls are different. You don't generally go in the line.
I mean, you can go in the locker room post
Super Bowl, but usually they bring a bunch of players
out to another area, so you don't really go in
a postgame locker room for the Super Bowl. I don't
think anybody saw that, And Jonathan gave you a window
(32:32):
into that, and.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
It was so sickening.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
I can't imagine that you could see it on Jonathan's face,
like all these years later, that he was back to
that visceral reaction.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Absolutely as guys were literally throwing up after that game.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
The ten part documentary event, The Dynasty New England Patriots
is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus. The schedule
for this show we will drop a new Patriots Dynasty
doc recap every Friday as the series continues on, and
we have a gibbet we have Dynasty books to give away.
Email your questions and comments about the documentary to web
(33:05):
Radio at Patriots dot com with the subject to Dynasty
and if we use your email, we'll send you a book.
Great reminiscent, guys, We'll see you on the next episode
as we recap the Patriots Dynasty
Some of the content in this podcast may not be
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Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's time for another episode of Patriots Dynasty doc Recap.
As we do a wrap up show of the Patriots
Dynasty documentary, Matt Smith along with Fred Kirsh Paul Perillo
like to so it's episodes three and four.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
We've seen the.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Patriots win their first Super Bowl, but before we get
to them winning their first super Bowl, there was a
look back at a coach that took them to their
second super Bowl in franchise history. Fred, were you surprised
when you saw Bill Parcell pop up on.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
News a little bit? Yeah, like, oh wow, they got
Bill Parcell's you know, and that goes you know, they
did a lot of work on this thing. It was
good to see him, and I think that he got
right to the point that they took away the draft
to me and there was no way I was coming
back to the Patriots. But you know, I think from
a story storytelling standpoint, they wanted to go back and
(01:01):
show you know, Crafts first go around with the team.
It didn't end well with a great coach and it
was a learning experience for Craft, but I thought that
was really cool to see him on camera now, not
back then, but now talking about it.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
And as the years have gone by, we've been led
to believe that the border war is over. Right now,
this is Darth Vader on the phone and everything's honky dorry.
It really isn't honky dorry if you listen to what
Bill Parcells is. I was not coming back as a
Patriot once they took the draft away from it, right
that was it.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I was done.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I thought this was kind of oddly placed. I didn't
really feel like this had much of a place in
the dynasty, understanding that the team itself, the players themselves,
a lot of them were parcels guys that they come
from those drafts. But you know, the Border war being
over was that was after no I know this. Yeah.
(01:56):
Like so when Parcells says I wasn't coming back, that
was in ninety seven. I'm saying didn't end until long.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
I know, But Parcells said it now, So you would
think that, like throughout all this time, maybe he you know, because.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
This is what I don't like about it, That's what
that's what you think. Parcells thinks he was right. Kraft
thinks he was right, No, I know, but anything to
do with the story. Really, I just thought it was odd.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I know. But since then, like Parcells has said, you know,
I did some things and he's kind of softened it.
But in this documentary we're talking about that, he made
no bones about it. I like that. I like that
he you know, that was the case back then. Like
now I've softened. I like Robert Kraft. Now we're friends,
blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
But at that time they've moved on, ye all.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
But clearly he's not.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
He's not.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
He's not going back on that, and they took the
draft away. That they took the draft away, and I
like hearing that twenty four years later or more thirty
years later, you know, that was that was cool.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
They took the draft away from me with somebody that
didn't know what he was doing.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
He was very pointed, Well, it wasn't. He was not
sorry talking about Robert Craft. He was talking about other people.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
No, no, no, they wasn't talking about Robert Craft.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
He was talking about Bobby probably Andy.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Right, And he was right.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
It's funny to me though, because this is one of
the great debates of like this, Bill Parcells belonging to
the Patriots Hall of Fame. Is he part of the
story of the dynasty, Well, as far as this document
is concerned, yes, he is.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
They took the draft. Well, who drafted all those great guys?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Probably think Bill Parcells.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
They didn't after they took it from him.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, okay, there aren't. Andy after he got the draft
taken away from him. Terry Gleam was the only one
who did anything. And would you get a year out
of him? I mean, I mean the results speak for themselves.
So so you know the tie laws, the Teddy Bruski's,
those were all parcels.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
So they took one pick away from them.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
They took one draft away from him. That's it.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
They took one.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Then he left, they took one, and then they had
three years of terrible drafts.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Well, let's not again.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
This is proving my point that it didn't belong to
the story. It's useless.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So, Paul, I'm gonna come back to you because I
think one of the things that I heard you talk
about that was impressive to you in this episode is
Teddy Bruski really kind of defining from a culture standpoint,
who will best embodied the patriot way and what was that.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah, And he talked about Drew and his selfless attitude
and sort of accepting as one hundred million dollar quarterback
that it's not always going to work out for you,
but you have to kind of do what's best for
the team. And the thing that really stuck out to
me is, obviously, I'm the Drew guy here on this panel,
and I am not embarrassed by that. I wear that
that proudly. I even as a Drew guy, had always
(04:37):
sort of been under the impression Drew did what he
had to do to get by and not upset the
apple cart too much. I don't think it was perfect
behind the scenes. I think Drew had his problems, but
what Bruski is telling you is, considering the circumstances, he
was pretty perfect behind the scenes, like he could have
been an enormous disruption. And yes he was disappointed. Yes,
(04:59):
earlier in in the in the in the I think
one of episode one or two, he said, no, you know,
the shins off the nickel, I'm going to get my
job back now, right. So, yes, he always had that
mindset and he wanted to play in the super Bowl,
but he didn't destroy everything, and he could have.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
And you know, he did go to Robert Kraft and
he did bitch to Robert Craft, and Robert Kraft went
to Bill. So he did do that, But he could
have made it a lot worse. Right, he could have
made it a lot worse.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I thought Bruski's comment like that was kind of the
Patriot Way was born.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Teams stunning first stunning to me.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
I mean, you know, when you never point in Drew's direction,
and when you talk about the Patriot Way, and I
know that that's, you know, term that that some people like,
some people don't. But for him to point to Drew,
I just I found that incredible. And but but I
think he was right, you know, and I had never
heard that.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
No, neither did I.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Right, And I will tell you, And they recount this,
and Drew does a really good job of recounting it.
I remember being outside of Belichick's office. We were told,
have a crew outside of Belichick's office. He's going to
make a decision. He's bringing Tom and Drew and he's
going to inform the decision. And they both walk out.
They both go their separate ways, and Drew was pissed,
and he said he was pissed. What's interesting to me
is with all the evidence that he had of how
(06:09):
Tom had sort of taken over and they won all
these games. I came into the SC Championship game. I
studied the ship. We're here at the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Why aren't I the starter? And as he said, that.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Was a bitter pill to swallow.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
Yeah, that was I mean even during a flipping it over,
I mean even during the game after they won the
Super Bowl. That the footage of of Drew and Tom's
interaction and you can just kind of feel that resignation
and Drew of like, yes, I'm happy, I'm happy for
the team.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
You're the man, Tom, You're the man twelve. You're the
man twelve.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
There's another interesting thing that happened in that first Super
Bowl that I think a lot of people enjoy here
in New England. We saw bon Jovie talk about it,
how we got chills in seeing the Patriots introduced as
the team.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Paul right.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But I but that whole story of how it happened,
I found is interesting because, as you guys know, because
you were here, they did that periodically. I think they
some people think they did it every single week during
the two thousand and one season. It started when they lost.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
To the Big definitely did it in Cincinnati, right, Yeah,
and so.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It became newsworthy because they did it on this stage.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Right. And what did you think of that whole moment? Well,
you know, remembering what it was like back then, I
loved it. And I you have some insight on this.
I thought it was a decision that the league was
pushing them to go out as individuals, and they made
a decision right there that no, no, no, we're not doing that.
(07:38):
But you know more than I did.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, I can just tell you what his perspective is
in an interview that I did hit him. Bill Belichick
in an interview with him in twenty sixteen, and he
said the league came to him midweek and said, Bill,
we need to know is it offense or defense that's
coming out. We've got a minute thirty scripted in here
for you to introduce a team. He goes, we need
fifteen seconds. We're going out as a team. And the
person the legal I don't think you understand. This is
(08:02):
the Super Bowl and you have to designate whether you
want your offense or defense to go out. And Bill goes,
I don't think you understand it. You can do whatever
you want. We're going out as a team, and we
need fifteen seconds and Bill was the one. Now was
that not communicated to Teddy Bruski because Bruski seemed surprised
in the documentary when he goes I heard a scream
in the back. Teddy's got a nice flare for the
dramatic too. I heard a scream come from behind and say, no,
(08:26):
we're going out as a team. And it just sort
of really romanticized the whole thing, which I thought was good.
But I think they knew they were going out as
a team on Wednesday. If it's the latest, Yeah, I like,
who knows, Like obviously you know what you know. But
maybe Bruske didn't. Maybe they were hearing, Oh, the league's
gonna make us go out as individuals. We want to
(08:47):
we don't want to do that.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Maybe up until that point the team wasn't or at
least Bruski wasn't sure that they were gonna be able
to do it. And then he heard that and it
was like, Oh, we're going at it as a team,
you know. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
I think there's another edite team to get.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Teddy Bruski on one of the later wrap up shows and.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Ask him, right.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I think there's another entity that was played here, and
that's television because Fox did the game that might have
been Fox's first Super Bowl by the way, and they're
used to this is going to be a big show.
We're going to introduce these guys individually, and they were saying, no,
not as a team. This is boring. It's not as exciting.
We want ray Lewis dancing out into the center. We
want Marshall Foch doing all that stuff. You guys remember
(09:26):
Gary Gridecci. I think Gary Gridecky who was on the
field in that position. They were scrambling still a little
bit like the league still at the at the eleventh
hour was pushing no, you guys need to be and.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
That might have been part of it, like the players
weren't sure that we were going to be able to
still do it. They were going to force us to
do it, but they they stood true and I love that.
I mean, I hope they never give that up. You know,
I know we have a new regime here and it's drawed,
and you know, maybe they look at it an opportunity
(09:58):
to redoce some things and change the way they get it.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I hope they they continue to come out as a team. Right,
you're watching and listening to Patriots Dynasty doc recap. As
we're talking about the Patriots Dynasty documentary, and as they
end episode three, super Bowl thirty eight is kind of
an aftermath. They show a field goal maybe oh yeah,
they want to.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Right thousand check out podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I appreciate that they spend a little bit more time
on super Bowl thirty nine, but they use super Bowl
thirty nine the way well, but they use that to
say that here's where the addiction comes into play, and
that both Pioli and Bruski Mike talk about the narcotic
of winning and how you'll do almost anything to win,
(10:46):
which Matt Hamat checked. The director and the Dynasty team
do a very good job of a cliffhanger because where
they're going for episode for well.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
They're going to Spygate and the Lean Years, the ten
year Lean Years. I was surprised, I mean, the twenty
one game win streak, you know, just I don't know.
I think that that point could have been made a
little bit better about what kind of made this team special,
because especially you know, coming off this two thousand and
three stuff that that I did, that we all did that,
you know, celebrating twenty years of that season. You know,
you remember how special those teams were. And I think
that that's just, you know, something that's getting kind of
(11:16):
left in the wash because we're trying to tell a
bigger story here.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
You know, we're trying to tell Like you said, Matt,
this was not about who these teams kind of were.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
This was about the bigger picture of how this team
began to view the league and how the league began
to view them, and what kind of came to transpire
a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Fred, what I mean, so my kid on that, if
you're a football purist, this might be that's not Matt
Hammichick's style in this. Yeah, Matt Hammachick's style in this
is to accentuate the drama the director. Yeah, but there
was drama that they overlooked.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I totally agree, Fred, this is a big miss to me.
They missed a lot of drumas they missed.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Harrison Maloy.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Harrison Maloy, the cutting his hands. Brian Kinchin, do you
remember how much tension there was going into that Super Bowl?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Right, yeah, I mean this team hates their coach with
Tom Jackson, hunts, you know, all that stuff. They they
I get it, you only have so much time you
have to make editorial choices.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
But that was a big thing. I couldn't agree more.
The Lawyer Malloy thing alone could have been fifteen minutes.
I mean, that was an enormous thing. Tom Brady. So
we come off of a couple of episodes where Tom
Brady's explaining how he went to quarterback school with the
head coach and how instrumental the two were. The next year,
he's growing a beard in protest of his coach. They
(12:36):
boycotted the coach to the point where Tom Jackson is
saying they hate him. Right, drama nothing, Yeah, we got
nothing on that. So we can set up spygate. And
I'm not saying they shouldn't have done spygate.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Well they should have done twelve episodes. Well that's what
I mean. They won.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I don't even think it has to be just a
football purist. They won twenty one games in a row.
It was it's a record, right, and we don't even
hear it. They didn't even mention it.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So the underbelly of This Dynasty comes into full fruition
in episode four and it's Spygate. Well, Fred, how did
you think that they handled that?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I thought they did a good job. I mean, if
you're looking for like stuff that you didn't know before,
you're not going to get it. Like Ernie Adams, they
interview him, He's not going to tell you anything. Bill's
not going to tell you anything, you know. And I
think there's a lot of people that they didn't talk
to that we think maybe they should have such as well,
(13:33):
like they didn't talk to Bears Nazarian, who is right
by Bill. They didn't talk to any of the video people,
you know, they you know, like there's a lot of
people that were involved that they didn't talk to. And players,
Like what did you guys think about all this? Brady? Brady,
maybe they asked him and he refused to answer, and
they didn't put it.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
In, but they not sure they got the Belichick question
and to ask him.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
They didn't have not one comment from Brady on Spygate.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
You have one more guy, yeah, Eric Mangini, Yeah, Like
how do we not hear from him? You know, this
is another part I'm sort of I went in with
kind of modest expectations of the whole project, and then
was really encouraged the way it started. And I'm sort
of kind of declining here as we get further along.
And this is one of the things you said it, Fred,
(14:18):
did you learn anything? Nope? And I don't think someone
you know, Johnny Appleseed and des Moin and Iowa didn't
learn anything about spot Well no, but this spygate that
they gave us is stuff that absolutely everybody knows.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
But but well you say that, but and we're in it.
But there's a lot of people who were just becoming
NFL fans, are very casual fans of the time that
I think will find, you know, this episode intriguing.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Well, but that's a history lesson for someone who didn't
experience it. I'm saying, someone who experienced the NFL, I
know six knows everything that they But I think.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
You know, again, the craft of this I think did
a really really good job here, you know, starting out
with that cop from New York who was at the
meadowlands that day and inclusion, I really do why Well,
he starts off by talking about how he was undercover
with the mob and you know for many, many years
(15:14):
and even though you're with all these bad guys, you
had to betray them. That was your job. And even
then it made him feel bad, you know, like I
had to get out, Like I just didn't feel good
about myself because of all the betrayal I had to do. Okay,
why are we talking about this? Well, now you find
out later on when the Manginie part of the story
(15:35):
comes up, and it's very clear that Ernie Adams and
other people in the organization felt that Manginie betrayed them.
He ratted them out. Who said, had somebody used those
words peoli?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I think, when you leave, don't don't don't make a mess.
Don't make a mess. It's family. It's family, when you leave,
don't make a mess.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
And so that's why I thought tying in that cop
story made sense to me.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Only if you're going to talk to Mangini. Well, otherwise
maybe they tried, but then you should say something you
like to acknowledge it somehow.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
That's they weren't doing those editorial notes. That wasn't the.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Style, you know, thinks.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
But you know the other thing that they didn't really
touch on that we know is that Mangini went to
the Jets and just that mere action said that he
was a trader like you could go anywhere in the world.
But at that time and probably still to this day,
but especially Bill hated the Jets by the way they
(16:37):
talked about him on the way out of New York.
And you want to talk about border war, there was
a huge border war with the Patriots and the Jets,
even after Parcels left there. And the fact that Marginie
left here for any other team would have been okay,
but he went to the Jets and that really pissed
Bill off. And then he does this.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
That was his first mistake, just take accepting that job.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Right, And then he does this, and as Ernie Adams said,
and I don't feel I'm taking all the oxygen out
of the room. But as Ernie Adams said, we weren't
doing anything that anyone else wasn't doing. We just did
it in a different way, in a better way. And
I know people were videotaping us.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Ernie said that, Mike, were you surprised at how you know?
Ernie said, he said, look, some of you shing you
have to take to their grave, right. But seconds later
in the documentary he sort of justified the act. Were
you surprised by.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
That, No, because I still felt like kind of pauled it,
like I don't gel like we're dancing around it. And
I still, you know, and again as a fan who
really was I don't know what the word would be.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I was devastated when this all happened.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Like I was, you know, a sky high Patriots fan
at the time, and oh my gosh, I'm so excited
for this season, and you know, to be to be
totally frank watching these first four episodes, the first two,
it was a reminder of what a joy and a
thrill it was early on. And the Spygate episode was
a reminder of some of the crap that you put
up with as a fan that you didn't really want
to be defending the wall or having to say everyone,
(18:05):
your team's a cheater, your team's a cheater.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
It sucked. It sucked as a Patriots fan.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
And and I'll tell you I was online fighting the
good fight just like a lot of people were. So
I was a little bit disappointing. I think what I
would always love to hear, and I would love to
hear just Ernie Adams, what do you do? What do
you do with this footage, Like, you know, I would
really like to know just what do you do?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
What is the point?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And I mean, I think the thing that I always
got to is that you know, they're trying to bake teams.
Note we're doing this.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
You have to change your signals and you're constantly putting
another team on. I never really bought that, like in
game they were doing it. But I'm still wondering the
same exact things I was wondering in two thousand and
seven as to why you would do this and was
it widespread and taping or you know, what was everybody doing?
Like what you know what I mean, like what was
the exact mechanism that all these teams were playing for?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
This was probably a hobby, yeah, oh, I know, probably
like a game for him, right, like we're screwing with
other teams.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
We're making it hard on them. They know we're doing it.
They're kind of doing it too, like you know, I
just I don't think anyone can as ever explained.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
He's like bringing in the Native Americans in World War
two and deciphering the Japanese codes. You know, yeah, just
like that, you know, But for Ernie, it was like
this was fun for.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Him, So I guess I would. I would sort of
summarize my thoughts on these two, you know, like so
because of the controversies, which was so juicy, we had
to gloss over two titles in a twenty one game
winning streak, not to mention other drama that Fred talked about,
and you give us nothing like okay, so you didn't
(19:33):
get Mangini. How about Mike Tannembaum. How about somebody who
can offer me some sort of perspective as to why
and how this happened instead of I'm going to take
it to my grave and I already talked about that
in the past. That's the comments you got from the
Patriots on the record I'm taking it to my grave,
from Ernie, Adams and Belichick telling you I've already talked
(19:53):
about it.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I do think Ernie just to add one thing, and
I think Ernie justified it that everybody was doing it.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
But that's what they said then. I know that it
was done to us. I don't remember him. I don't
remember him saying I'll take it to my grave then,
but they said everybody else is doing it, I was
saying it.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I do think they also that the the people who
put the document together. Fred talked a couple of times
here about the craft c R A f t of
putting this together. And I thought some of the audio
montages that they did where you heard national voices, sometimes recognizable.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Sometimes locals.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Spygate one was really good. Those were really, really well done.
It wasn't you know whoever saying these guys are cheaters.
It was the national media talking at wit about these
guys they're cheaters.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
My favorite ones just.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Credit what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, the Fox one one Bradshaws, like you know, and
this calls into question Jimmy Johnson's at the.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
End, Well forget I didn't use this one, but Scott
Pelley at the time anchored the CBS Evening News, and
I'll never forget listening to him. Are the New England
Patriots cheaters?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
He led off to broadcast with that different scamp. Okay,
you know, I was gonna say, Paul, just a piggyback
on what you said. The the Jimmy Johnson thing with
with Terry Bradshaw was a great cut I thought was
they went back and they showed Bradshaw next to Bill
to one of the Super.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Bowls and kind of hugging him, and.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
I just thought that was a great, great cut, great
you know, just illustration of how things it's said exactly
what they were trying to say. They went from the darlings,
the underdogs, the you know, the sweethearts of the NFL,
to now the villains and uh.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Next level nerd and next level nerd my excellent observation.
One of the thing that I remember at the time,
the big deal that was the armand Katayan interview. Oh wow,
armand Katayan is gonna sit down and talk with Bill.
This is the one time. And I remember at the
time thinking, gee, I don't think there was really much there.
I thought Katayan did a really good job holding his
(21:52):
feet to the fire. I think he did to His
questions were really solid.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Yeah he didn't and he didn't let him go. No,
you know, he wouldn't, you know, he pushed back.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I think he did it both be true, there wasn't
much there because Bill as always does a great job
of just giving you the farm stiff arm but Army
Katayan asked every relevant question you could ask, right, And.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I think for Patriot fans that were fans during that period,
or people who were new uh to the fandom watching
that interview, and they ran a considerable amount of it
in episode four. I think that that's pretty, you know,
very very interesting use.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Of that old footage.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I thought that was terrific.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, okay, so what was the reaction to Spygate. You know,
the national media has labeled the team as cheaters, and
the documentarians did, in my opinion, an excellent job of
introducing the guy that was gonna make it all go away,
and that was Randy Moss. Fred What did you think
is all that?
Speaker 4 (22:48):
I thought that was one of the most dramatic moments
of the first four episodes. First four episodes is when
they said, you know, we needed that, you know guy
that would I forget the exact word that opened up
the field, that playmaker. And then they pan over and
it's just Randy Moss looking into the camera and it's like,
you got chills because you know what happened immediately on
(23:10):
this team when he came on it.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
So I looked at it in it was It was
an interesting because when when they're giving you all those
collages of all the national people kicking the crap out
of Belichick in particular, but the Patriots to Mike's point
of that's where the defending the wall started. You know,
Michael Holly, who's you know, been around forever and very
been very close to his team. He says the rules
(23:34):
don't apply to them. Yeah, and I think Bill looked
at and said, yeah, f you right way. Do you
see what we got for you next year? And that's
where this panning of to Moss comes from, And like
you get like a peek inside of what must have
been going on in Bill's minds, like, oh, oh, we
have to cheat to do this. Wait, do you see
(23:55):
what we're going on you this year?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And I wrote down when I was what they went
to war they went.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To and the recreation of the deal Mike, where they
went back and forth with Moss and Belichick. And we've
talked earlier that it doesn't look like maybe this was
the most important thing on Bill's dance card at the
time to do this interview. But I think you saw
a little glimpse of he actually enjoyed talking about how
that deal went down.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I mean, give me more Randy Moss and Bill Belichick,
Like can they.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Do a sitcom together?
Speaker 5 (24:22):
I mean, anytime in history there's been interactions of those
two guys. It's hilarious and I mean it's Randy, but
I thought that was one of the times that Bill,
you know, opened up a little bit, was a little
bit of storyteller Bill, And I mean just you know,
for me again as a fan, remember Sonny McClain's Santa
Monica bar watching Week one against the Jets, in that
first play that Randy talked about where.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Me and Paula are looking at each other doing that.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
Oh my gosh, I mean it was you know, it
was it was so exciting, and I mean it's just
it just brings me back.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
As a fan to what a season that was.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
I mean, everything good, everything bad. It was like you
just can't even really explain it. You know, every week
they're hanging fifty points on teams. You know, I remember
like them talking about all the Bengals can take, you know,
like each week you.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Kind of talk yourself into one team.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
But I I I thought they did a good job,
you know, just capturing the the f you mentality of that.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I loved. I loved Moss's comment about family. You know,
that was something that was really looking for. Yeah, you know,
that was something I was really looking for. And then
just an assault you're talking about, you know, Sonny McLean's
just selfishly. Those are big show days for me. Those
were ei days with Glenn Woodway and that crew, and
I would go in and like you, I don't know,
like I don't know why they're running up to score
every week. I mean, it's just seemed like Joe Gibbs,
(25:33):
you know, a guy three Super Bowls were running up
the score every week, and I was just what do
he was soccer mom, That's what they used to call me,
the soccer man. Like, they're not running up the score.
You gotta stop. Oh, oh contraire because Teddy Brusky comes
in and tells you flat out we were running up
the score and why because bb was pissed.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, that was really insightful. I like war comment lest
anyone think differently as to what they were doing. I
thought Bruskie yieled it.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
And the other thing I thought that was pretty poignant
was how the team thought about Bill. Bill was getting
his ass kicked. Yep, they were kicking the crap out
of him, you know, from weft coast to West coast,
you know, uh, they were, they were killing him. But
the team rallied around him. And he was ours, he's ours.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
How do we feel about playing for Bill Belichick? Robert
was one of the ours.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right, And Robert Craft also accentuated that by you know,
Moss talked about family and how we mentioned that to
Robert Craft, and Craft himself said, we were here. We
were here to protect Bill's reputation, and we wanted to
protect Bill's reputation and that's why, Hey, find me, find him,
don't you have to do. Don't suspend him.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Okay, we're gonna rally around him and we're gonna protect
him on this. Yeah, and the team did right, so
like crazy, and then back to the you know, like
the way that season unfolded, and it was early on
when they just started laying waste to everybody, right, I
was thirty eight, fourteen thirty. They were averaging again, you know, yeah,
well like ten weeks into the season, they were averaging
forty four points a game, not like three weeks in,
(27:09):
you know, and you started saying, this team can go undefeated.
And it was about halfway through. You know, Andy Hart,
who used to work with us, was before that.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
We were doing the show in here and ESPN was
on the monitor, and all of a sudden the scroll
and there was a tab for Paige.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Patriots undefeated and real ticker. Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
They got their own tab.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So we start country. We start talking like that, right,
and we're talking in those terms, and you're like, well,
I wonder what the tea What was the team thinking?
They started playing another one Bite to the Dust in
the locker room, which was phenomen after after games, more
great footage. Oh yeah, you know with Teddy going over,
you know, and we had heard it, Fred, you and
I because the biggest game that year by far was
(27:49):
at Indy. You know that that November sweets kind of
game where both teams are always the top of the league.
Brady Manning Cults are up ten in the fourth quarter,
they come back and they get two touchdowns and they
win the game, and they're rocking another one Bites the
Dust on the plane on the way home. Now, Fred
and I are thinking at the time, we probably shouldn't
talk about it. I probably don't want this out there.
(28:09):
Little do they know they were doing it in the
locker room every every week, after every game.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And the other thing that made me realize is how
grateful I am for Teddy Brusk because you know how
tough it is to play for Bill, and if you
don't have somebody like Teddy who can do that, you know,
despite Bill, no one would ever be able to play here.
You needed a guy like that to keep it, even
to give the other side, to tell the other guys
(28:36):
it's okay, it's okay, we can celebrate.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
It's a really good point.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Thank God for guys like Rabel and Teddy Bruske to
be on this team.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
So those are the highlights of episode four. And we
all know how episode four has to end. God, and
that was the low light. But even with the low light,
there was a couple of shining examples. I thought, Paul
you and I talked about this. I thought Strahan was
un believable.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
I thought he was really really good.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And Fred you talked about Bruski. I thought Teddy really
brought the whole thing full circle. We're witnessing that today
where Patrick Mahomes is talking about, you know, jeez, are
we are we venturing into Patriots territory here where people
are sick of us because we're winning, and Bruski talked
about you know they Straighthan made a great point about
(29:24):
how they just had to pressure.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Tom all the time, and Tom was getting.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
The crap kicked out of him and then said right right,
And then Bruski talked about he saw the other sideline
and Fred, you know how impressed with you and how
he brought that whole thing absolutely and the way he's
you know, like, we saw that. You know, we've been there,
we saw that. And he says like, oh shit, because
he knew that's us. He immediately we know what happens
(29:49):
when that happens to the other team.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
He immediately put him, this is two thousand and one.
They're us two thousand and one. Oh shit, oh shit,
I know what that feels like. And I know, I
think he said, I know, I know what they feel. Yeah,
And the Giants didn't think they were underdogs. No, And
the Giants, if you recall, showed up at that Super
Bowl wearing a black because they were coming for a funeral.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
And I don't know who the announcer was in the
documentary that says it at the time, he said, you know,
if the Giants win this game, it's a great story
of you know, the underdog beating Goliath. But if the
Patriots win this game and go nineteen oh, it's it'll
be a holy moment in the NFL, and I couldn't
agree more. Had the Patriots won that game, it would
it would have been something to this day. We be,
(30:37):
you know, the greatest team time, right, and it got
taken away, And I thought Jonathan Kraft I was just
gonna say go ahead, No.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
I think the reaction.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Of course, I would have liked to have heard more
from Bill, but I'm not expecting that Bill was Bill
when they asked him about it. Jonathan Craft, I thought
was very poignant and gave a different perspective about walking
into that.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Locker room and what was that look like? Mike, Yeah,
how did that?
Speaker 4 (31:03):
How did you take that?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
And I also want to ask you your thought on
because I thought Tom, while not completely revelatory, gave you
a little glimpse into what his life was like after
that loss.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Yeah, I think you know, as a fan, that's what
I think you love as hearing Tom Brady has the
same feel like I mean he said in it. You know,
I was just watched it the other day. There were
guys around waited to catch the tyree, you know, like
they were feeling the same thing you were. And I
think that's what's great about sports as a fan is
you have this kind of sense of shared experience and
so you know, it doesn't really help. But seeing Tom
kind of still have those feelings and that angst about it,
(31:36):
it just shows you how you're all kind of in
it together. So I really like that, and I thought,
you know, just I was. I was kind of shocked,
to be honest, with what Jonathan said about you know,
guys thrown up.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I mean, you know that intensity.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
I mean I've heard other stories from you guys of
you know, things metaled out afterwards and you know, guys
kind of made peace with it.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
But it's the worst less in NFL history. There's no
other way to put it.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
It was unintentionally great by him because he likes to
think of another way to put it. Already did it?
You know, well, I don't know really how to describe it.
You know, you walk in, you see guys sob grown
men sobbing, and guys throwing up, and we all watched
it together.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
We like you just described it. That was it Another
thing that I had never heard that, you know, that
was the reaction in the locker room because but you know,
Super Bowls are different. You don't generally go in the line.
I mean, you can go in the locker room post
Super Bowl, but usually they bring a bunch of players
out to another area, so you don't really go in
a postgame locker room for the Super Bowl. I don't
think anybody saw that, And Jonathan gave you a window
(32:32):
into that, and.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
It was so sickening.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
I can't imagine that you could see it on Jonathan's face,
like all these years later, that he was back to
that visceral reaction.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Absolutely as guys were literally throwing up after that game.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
The ten part documentary event, The Dynasty New England Patriots
is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus. The schedule
for this show we will drop a new Patriots Dynasty
doc recap every Friday as the series continues on, and
we have a gibbet we have Dynasty books to give away.
Email your questions and comments about the documentary to web
(33:05):
Radio at Patriots dot com with the subject to Dynasty
and if we use your email, we'll send you a book.
Great reminiscent, guys, We'll see you on the next episode
as we recap the Patriots Dynasty
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