March 1, 2024 • 25 mins
Matt Smith hosts a roundtable with Fred Kirsch, Paul Perillo and Mike Dussault breaking down episodes five and six of Apple TV Plus’s exclusive 10-part documentary event, The Dynasty: New England Patriots.The 10-part documentary event, 'The Dynasty: New England Patriots' is streaming now, exclusively on Apple TV Plus.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Some of the content in this podcast may not be
suitable for all audiences.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
And it's time for another episode of the Dynasty wrap
up show. Matt Smith and Indianapolis joined by Fred kersh
In Paul Pirillo in our studios back in Foxborough. The
ten Park documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots is
streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus. Gentlemen, we're here
to talk about episodes five and six. In episode five,
(00:32):
did anybody else notice that they spent more time on
Moss's no catch on the Patriots final drive than the
scorned assante Samuel no interception on the Giants final drive?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I did notice that.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
But before we get into it, Matt, You're at the
combine and I'm wondering, has any Patriots players gone up
to Elliott Wolf and say they want to be traded
or moved to California or you know, go to a
safe house or anything like that that's later they have not. Okay,
that episode six, we'll get into that, all.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Right, correct, but correct.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, Here's here's one of the things that I think
fans are going to love, and I can't say enough
about it. I wish, quite honestly, that there had been
more of it. I call it the Loser's Ring ceremony
that they showed at the very beginning of episode five
after the Patriots lost to the Giants.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
In the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Wonder what you guys thoughted that footage.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, I enjoyed it, and it's something that I was
aware of through you, and I share your sentiments. I
didn't see enough of it, you know, they only showed
you know, Bill's part. That to me, the money part
was Bill sort of explaining just how important it is
to unlike most years where he's preaching forget about last year. No,
(01:55):
do not forget about how hard it was for those
sixteen wins. Don't forget those sixty To know is you
forget the five and elevens. You've been through the five
and elevens and the seven and ninees. Those are the
ones you want to forget. This one takes some time
and remember what you guys accomplished, because it was pretty incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I thought it was awesome, just you know, the behind
the scenes footage was was awesome to see that. But
I remember at the time, Paul, internally, there was a
lot of debate do you put up a.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Sixteen in O banner, right, and a lot it was split.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Not everyone agreed, like you do you know, you don't
do that, and you know the sixteen and oh one out,
and you know, it was good to see Bill telling
the team, you know, and he's he said it. You know,
I'm always a guy to move on. You know, it
doesn't really matter. But when you have sixteen and oh,
you don't forget that. You don't forget that.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah, And I was one of the few because I
think it wasn't really split. I think most people were
against it. I had no problem with it, and I'm
not a big fan of the divisional you know. Yeah,
I grew up in Boston, you know, at the Boston
Garden and the Bruins had all the Adams Division titles.
Those did nothing.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, Matt's in the place of the home of the Division.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Absolutely, but you know, sixteen and oh isn't an Adam's
Division title, right.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
At the risk of being the company guy, I will
send kudos to the Crafts, Robert and Jonathan who had
the foresight to say, we need to shoot this. It's
never been seen until this episode came out. Never footage
has never been seen before, and I think fans are
really really going to enjoy seeing it because you're getting
a scene behind the curtain that nobody's seen before. So
(03:30):
we move along until episode five, Brady goes down. There's
a lot of time spent on Brady's injury, how devastated
he was. And Paul, I want to ask you, because
you're the first person I heard talk about this, were
the seeds planted there in that episode that maybe that
Bill doesn't think you need a top tier quarterback in
(03:54):
order to win with how successful relatively speaking, the Patriots
were that year.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Yeah, Look, you never know what's in a guy's mind,
in a person's heart without knowing for sure, right, Like,
it's my feeling from watching this part. And I did
think it was a little odd. Again, they spent so
much time on this season, and I thought it was
sort of throwing a bone to Bill, because I know
Bill's very proud of the fact that they didn't fall apart,
(04:21):
you know, for whatever that means. They went eleven and
five with Matt Castle. But I just I felt like
the commentary of that season was what an unbelievable job
by Bill. Bill's sort of proving that Tom Brady. You know,
one guy said it, I don't forget who that Tom
Brady's actually a system quarterback. That shows it. It was
(04:43):
nonsense and there was not the prevailing wisdom at the time.
And what I really had a problem with with this
was they sort of you know, and I understand that
Tom Brady and the Brady family may have felt like
this because Tom is maniacally competitive, right, and he did
know how he got his job. There was no talk
now of well Tom knows how he got his job,
(05:05):
so he wants to get back out that he may
have been feeling that, but I'm telling you there was
one hundred percent of people in New England that never
gave it a second thought. When Tom Brady's healthy again,
he will take over. Regardless of how Madcastle played very
well that year. He deserves a lot of credit for
playing well. He was never going to take Brady's job.
That was never like, there was no drama there, and
(05:26):
I think they tried to sort of insert it into this.
But I do think to answer Matt's point, Matt Matt's
question the over the top even Bill postgame that last one,
I wish we had a game next week. I think
it was the day after Prescotte. I wish we had
a game next week, but I'm awfully proud of this
team and what it's accomplished. And I thought that was
(05:47):
kind of a way for Bill to say, I'm awfully
proud of myself for not having this fall apart. And
I do wonder if that maybe set the stage for
a little bit of a riff like Tom sort of
reading that, like, oh, you think you can just win
without me, Like, to me, there's a big difference in
five games. Yeah, sixteen and o to eleven and five
showed you just how great Tom Brady was.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I get I understand the director's choice in trying to
create that drama for the sake of storytelling, but you're right,
we were in the middle of it. Remember this is
a team that was sixteen and oh the year before,
not a lot of change the next year and they
were eleven and five, you know, so they lost five
(06:28):
more games than the year before with basically the same
because they didn't have Brady.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
And they prefaced it all Matt by sort of before
they got into eight. You know, Tom when he talked
just how devastating that seven loss was, you know, and
he really, you know, it was it was just a
devastating loss for them. But he said, we looked at
the two thousand and eight year as a redemption year
for us. You know, we felt like we had the
same team, right, and it was going to be a
(06:54):
redemption year. So again, redemption years don't result in minus
five right in the win loss total. So again I
think it was I think it's admirable that they didn't
fall apart. Yeah, but they also didn't make the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I thought the Brady interview coming off of the Super
Bowl loss was one of the most insightful things, and
I think fans will enjoy seeing just how you could
tell how beat up Brady was about that loss and
how it eats him still to this day. Just one
of the things on the you know, the Brady family.
And I think it was Tom Senior who mentioned when
he was talking about coach Belichick and he said, well,
(07:31):
you know, coach Belichick, if you're not around, out of side,
out of mind. And my question is when he said that,
is that really different from a lot of other coaches.
Isn't that generally the way it is when somebody's injured,
that you're out of side out of mind.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It definitely used to be.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You know, coaches didn't want injured players around. They would
tell him, you know, get lost, not in those way,
but you know, but lately though, you do see more
injured guys hanging out on the sideline. You know, Aaron
Rodgers of course is famously but that sentiment has kind
of changed. But you know, ten fifteen years ago, I'm
(08:09):
sure a lot of coaches said, listen, if you're out
for the season, go rehab, do what you have to do.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
We'll see you next.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Thing, and real quick, I would just say that the
reason that that changed is because the IR rules have changed,
and now when you're on IR, you're not out of sight,
out of mind.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
You could come back, right.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
So you know, when Brady went on IR, he was
done for the year, no matter what happened. So obviously
he wouldn't have been able to come back anyway. But
now you go on IR in week one, if you're
healthy in week thirteen, you can play. That wasn't the
case then, So I do think it was out of sight,
out of mind for most teams. Man.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I think you're right, And it wasn't just a Bill thing.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Right, A new character was introduced in episode five, and
again the directors and the production crew there did it
in a very dramatic way with the dramatic pan and
the sight of Alex Guerrero.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Yeah, again this is this goes back to my theory.
And you guys know, you guys always make fun of
me because I always they always have these conspiracy theories
and you know, hidden meanings. I think this was if
you want to go back to the seeds of the
rift being sown, this is part of it. This gets
Guerrero into his life. McGinnis. Evidently, you know, hooks Brady
(09:22):
up with Alice Guerrero, he helped him with his rehab,
and I think therein you know that there's a conflict
as how this is going to happen. Right, Bill did
not appreciate Guerrero's presence, and Bill was, I think, help
bent on showing that he didn't need Brady to win,
and Brady, being the competitor that he was, didn't even
want to go on ir with a torn a cl
(09:44):
He wanted to stay out there. He will lobbied, yeah,
to stay out there and play. And I just feel
like all of these things sort of conspired to lead
to the rift.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And if you remember, like mass General was ready and
willing to do that surgery in Brady chose to go
to LA to have it done and then he gets
the infection. And I'm sure there was a lot of
eye rolling and headshaking within these walls of like, why
didn't you just stay here and get it done?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Why you have to go all the way to LA?
See what happened? So Matt, I want to give you
guys another plug. And I know you don't like when
we do this, but you know, again, all of these
stories we were sort of familiar with. We might not
know every detail, but we're familiar with it. The stuff
that's new is the footage that Matt's talking about and
a lot of the stuff that Matt and the crew shot.
And I thought there was some really good locker room
(10:32):
scenes in this season. And again it's no surprise because
it was sort of an ode to Belichick. But you know,
Bill flat out saying in ninety nine, the Rams lost
Trent Green and Kurt Wanner took him to the super Bowl.
You know, one we lost Drew Bledsoe and Brady took
us to the super Bowl. This saw on you, now, Castle,
you know like, I thought that was really interesting stuff
(10:53):
that I hadn't seen.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Matt.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
You probably have, but I don't think it's been shown
publicly until this. I think fans will find some of
these interactions. And then even with him teasing uh Mad
after the Jets win. I know you haven't started the
game since the seventh grade, but you did today and
he gave him the game ball. I thought that was
good stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
The fact that Bill said that, you know, you know
the history part of it. Do you think in his
mind he thought they actually could go to the super Bowl?
Speaker 4 (11:20):
With me, they were absolutely loaded. That team was stacked.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
They were they were, But do you think Bill thought
that they could get to the super Bowl?
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Probably not. But that's not how we. That's not how we,
That's not how he's like wired. He's always wired to
think he has a chance. And I think in his
mind they were a lot better than all one. Yeah
and oh one won the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Matt, what do you think? I think, why not?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Why shouldn't they be able to win if they get
if I think he realized if they get competent, turnover
free football, play out of the quarterback with Moss and Welker,
you still have that jugger out of an offense going. Yeah,
I think he did think they had a chance to
go back to the super Bowl. But I want to
go back to one thing that I think Paul you
(12:07):
mentioned it. You said something along the lines of that
they threw a bone to Belichick. I think a lot
of the criticism that we've been seeing after the first
four episodes from fans from media is that they're out
to get Bill, that Bill is the villain in this
and I think in this episode, I would dispel that
notion right there because they think they I don't know
(12:28):
if it's there going out of their way, but they're
telling the story that how successful the team was that
year and that he helped keep it together with Brady
going down.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Yeah, that's why that's why I referred to it that way.
I agree with you. I thought this was the Bill episode. Yeah,
you know, the majority of the other ones that I've
seen not really been that way.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
The other thing about this episode, episode five, they get
into the nine season a little bit. Yeah, and you
know there's that famous We've seen it before where at
the end of the season, Belichick's on the sideline with
Brady and he's saying to Brady, you know how frust
rating it is. He just can't get this team to
play the way they need to play. And the fact
that he's telling Brady that tells me that the rift
(13:08):
hadn't completely happened yet, you know, because you don't confide
in a guy who you know you're having trouble with
that way. And I think they were still in pretty
good terms in nine. And to me, that's one evidence
of that that Bill was willing to tell Brady, you know,
his innermost feelings about the team.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Yeah, and Matt, one thing that I thought was really
really good the way this this particular episode, episode five,
we want to talk about six two in a second.
I thought they did it really really well, Matt Hamichik
setting up the cliffhanger and this one so you wind
down the OH nine season, and it was disappointing. They
showed the aftermath of that Baltimore game they just weren't
(13:47):
good enough anymore. They had lost, you know, a lot
of veterans that were key parts, and they talk about
those and then they sort of get back to that
sort of pressure to always win and they got to
hit this draft and they the cliffhanger they set up
is obviously drafting Aaron Hernandez, and I just thought that
was not overly dramatic. I thought that was really really
(14:08):
well done, the way they sort of set the stage
for their mindset, you know. And I know it sounds
silly to go from four to nine without a Super
Bowl and feel pressure to win, but it was there
was pressure there, and I thought they did a great
job of sort of encapsulating that the way they set
that cliffhanger up.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I think I think Hamichek does great cliffhangers in this series.
I think it's been a pretty constant theme throughout this
and I think it's one of the nice things. And
as a viewer, I think, oh wow, I want to
get to the next one.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So the next one, Paul, as you say, is episode six,
and it's the Aaron Hernandez episode.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
And watching the episode with somebody yesterday who remain who
will remain nameless? And they couldn't believe the green screen
footage that they started the entire episode with, I think
that that was a network It was not an internal
person's voice. I think that was a networks person's voice.
(15:07):
As the networks are shooting green screen for the upcoming season.
That scene was unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Yeah, I just I thought this this episode was you know,
out of you know, after the first one. This is
probably my next favorite, and not because of the subject
matter obviously, but it was chilling. Yeah, it was chilling
watching it, watching the smile, the personality that that Hernandez had,
(15:34):
knowing the demons that were clearly in his head. Yeah,
I thought they did a you know a good job
of sort of displaying that dichotomy.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
What made this episode for me and we've I've saw,
we've seen the Hernandez documentary, We've seen all that before.
But what made this one was the interviews Dion Branch.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And Brandon Many Lloyd and.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
And Wes Welker. The interviews of people made this episode.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Three wide receivers in this episode were remarkable. They're compelling stuff.
Brandon Lloyd was really good.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
So, Paul, I've heard you say in a couple of
these things, when you've been criticizing some of the episodes,
you say, well, I don't know that I learned anything. Now,
it's tough for somebody like you to learn anything. You
were at a front.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Row seat for this YEP.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
So I ask you about this episode, did you learn
something that you didn't know about after watching this episode?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
I did, and it's these three wide receivers knew, That's
what I learned.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
They knew there was some or at least they said
they should have known.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
There was some darkness there that they knew about, and
they brought to the attention and it seemingly fell on
deaf years. And I think it's easy after the fact
to say, you know, I think Michael Holly is interviewed
in the middle of this episode about he would leave
you some breadcrumbs, but you didn't think that at the time.
You're thinking that in hindsight, Brandon Lloyd, Dion Branch and
(17:01):
Wes Welker are telling you at the time they were
concerned something's not right with this guy, and they brought
it to They couldn't understand. Welker had a remarkable, refreshing,
honest when he was walking around as a as a rookie.
He's running around telling everybody he's the best part returner
on the team, and he's joking around and Bill's laughing,
(17:23):
and Welker said, I just don't get it, Like what
what is it about this kid, right, what? Why is
he get Why are you doing that? Why are you
letting this kid do this?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Right?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
That's he's telling you what he thought at the time,
not in retrospect. And I just thought that those.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Three Why does he why does he love this guy
so much? That's the line, that's the line, I thank
you love this guy so much? Oh my goodness. I
mean when I heard that, I was going, Now, there's honesty.
There's real honesty there.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Do you think any you know, and again Bill's not
gonna talk about it, but do you think Bill's relationship
with urban Meyer had a little bit of a reason
about why he treated Hernandez the way he did.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
He knew what was going on, He knew what was
going on.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
But I think they felt that, you know, eventually it'll
sort itself out.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
But man, he was good. He was good. He was
really good.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
But so was a lot of guys who were rookies,
and Bill didn't treat them the way. He didn't let
them get away with what he let Hernandez get away with.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I don't think he let Gronk get away with what
he let her Nandas get away. That's what I'm saying
and I wonder if it is. I do think that's
a very interesting point you bring up about Urban Meyer.
I think Urban probably felt like he had an idea
of what made Hernandez tick. You know, they go through
the story of how they brought him up to get
him out of New Britain as a seventeen year old,
(18:49):
and that was chilling to me because my son's going
to turn seventeen next week and next month rather and
just to sort of think about him going down to
Florida to start off on his college football career, like,
I couldn't even fathom that right, let alone with the
family life that he was driving behind. Yeah, so I
(19:12):
thought that was another really powerful scene.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
You're listening and watching to the Dynasty recap show wrap
up show, Matt Smith, Paparello and Fred Kersh, there was
another seed planted in this one, same position, different person.
What did you think of Gronkowski's comment about getting the
phone call while he was in New York City on
(19:36):
the stage on Draft Night.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I'm really glad you brought that up now, because that's
exactly where I was going when we talk about how
Bill treated Aaron and then Gronkowski hasn't been on the
team for five minutes and he's already in trouble, you know,
So like, you know the difference there, you know, like
I thought it was funny, but when you put it
(20:01):
in contact with Hernandez, you see how Bill let Hernandez
get away with stuff, where with Gronk's like get him
off the stage.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You know.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Yeah, I thought that the I wrote down in my
notebook when that came by. BB's reaction to Gronk getting
drafted is exactly what we figured it was without you know,
obviously we hadn't seen it, but the way he reacted
was exactly the way I bet you building like that
we were probably right here in this studio, Fred doing
a draft show and saying that at the time.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Did Mercy have mercy? Something that was so funny.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
You know, And he did have a little bit of
a like a ry smile on his face. But again,
you know, like and I do think that he called
and they said, Okay, enough is enough, get off the stage.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
So Fred, I want to ask you a couple of
questions here. These are the tough questions. Of course, there's
a couple couple points in this where Robert Kraft is
being interviewed, and I think you saw a real human
side in Robert Kraft and talking about the Hernandez tragedy
one of the things that I don't think I've ever
heard him say when we ask what did you learn?
(21:07):
I thought it was really fascinating to hear Robert Kraft
talk about learning something about himself that because of this,
he didn't realize if he could ever trust anyone again.
That's how deeply.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Hoodwinked.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I think he feels like and he feels like that's
changed the way he looks at people for the rest
of his life.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, sometimes good things can be a flaw, and I
think one of the flaws at least up to that
point with Robert Kraft was trusting people or you know,
getting enamored with certain types of people.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Let's face it, Robert Kraft.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And Aaron Hernane has come from two different worlds. But
I think Robert wanted kind of that world to like him.
I think, as much as he said in the documentary,
Aaron might have looked at me as sort of a
paternal type of figure. I think Robert wanted to be
a paternal type of figure. I think he would want
to say that kid turned around his life, and I
(22:02):
had a part in that, and I think that overrode
the stuff that maybe didn't allow him to really see
the bad part of Aaron Hernandez right up until the day,
the day after he committed the murder. Robert believed him
when Aaron told him I had nothing to do with this,
you know, don't worry about it. And I really do
(22:25):
believe he was duped. But I do believe that the
reason why he was was part of a flaw in
his own character, A good flaw, you know what I
you know what I'm saying, like what's wrong with trusting
people and wanting you know, but sometimes when you're the
CEO of a company or the owner of a football team,
(22:46):
you know you have that you have that responsibility to
the community that you know you have to look at
things a little bit more jaded. And Robert even said it,
I failed, We failed, you know, and I apologize for that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I thought that was pretty powerful.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Paul, you've been and I heard you talking about it
unfiltered earlier this week, where you don't like the fact
that the three and the four teams were glossed over,
that that's stung that you didn't think they gave that
enough time. Are you back on the beam now? Are
you back on the Dynasty series now? After seeing admittedly
a very chilling episode and not one that's very fun
(23:26):
to watch, but they I think they portrayed the interviews,
as he said, with these people were unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Yeah, I did think that the the Hernandez episode was
was well put together. What I would say, just to
sort of clarify my point about three and o four,
I'm not looking for a recap of all the chapter
and verse wins. Like I, that's America's game. That's a
different that's a different venue, different vehicle for that, I
(23:53):
don't need to have all the all the games highlighted.
What I thought was a missed opportunity was three in particular,
was a highly dramatic, intense situation with the release of
lawyer Malloy on the eve of the season that almost
destroyed that team. They were completely checked out of the
(24:16):
opening game of the season and lost thirty one to nothing,
and the players were not happy with Bill Belichick. I
thought it would have been a fascinating look to hear
from Teddy Bruski, to hear from Tom Brady and all
the other guys about how Tom Jackson's ridiculous assertion that
they all hate their coach galvanised the team, and you.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Want to throw a bone to Bill, that was it back?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
That to me was drama, And I think again, you know,
sort of overlooking Bill's place here, I did something that
was controversial. I lost the team, but I was able
to keep them. I got them back. That to me
is what documentaries are all about, conflict drama. So the
behind the scenes stories. Everybody knows they won twenty one
(25:02):
in a row. Everybody knows they went fourteen to two
and back to back seasons. Again, I don't need to
have all of those things done over again. I just
thought it was a missed opportunity to ignore the lawyer
malloy part in Rodney Harrison's arrival.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yes, yes, I agree.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Well, we will be dropping a new Dynasty wrap up
show podcast every Friday when the Dynasty series drops on Friday,
and as a tease for listeners and viewers, Paul, we
will have the opportunity to talk to both the director,
Matt Hamichick and one of the executive producers, Jeff Benedict
in a future episode when we wrap up the entire series, Paul,
(25:39):
you better have those questions loaded and ready to go
to ask Hamicheck why he didn't delve deeper into the
three season right.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
He probably isn't going to be happy with me, right,
I think he looks at it all good.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Thanks for watching and listening to the Dynasty wrap Up Show.
Some of the content in this podcast may not be
suitable for all audiences.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
And it's time for another episode of the Dynasty wrap
up show. Matt Smith and Indianapolis joined by Fred kersh
In Paul Pirillo in our studios back in Foxborough. The
ten Park documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots is
streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus. Gentlemen, we're here
to talk about episodes five and six. In episode five,
(00:32):
did anybody else notice that they spent more time on
Moss's no catch on the Patriots final drive than the
scorned assante Samuel no interception on the Giants final drive?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I did notice that.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
But before we get into it, Matt, You're at the
combine and I'm wondering, has any Patriots players gone up
to Elliott Wolf and say they want to be traded
or moved to California or you know, go to a
safe house or anything like that that's later they have not. Okay,
that episode six, we'll get into that, all.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Right, correct, but correct.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, Here's here's one of the things that I think
fans are going to love, and I can't say enough
about it. I wish, quite honestly, that there had been
more of it. I call it the Loser's Ring ceremony
that they showed at the very beginning of episode five
after the Patriots lost to the Giants.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
In the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Wonder what you guys thoughted that footage.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, I enjoyed it, and it's something that I was
aware of through you, and I share your sentiments. I
didn't see enough of it, you know, they only showed
you know, Bill's part. That to me, the money part
was Bill sort of explaining just how important it is
to unlike most years where he's preaching forget about last year. No,
(01:55):
do not forget about how hard it was for those
sixteen wins. Don't forget those sixty To know is you
forget the five and elevens. You've been through the five
and elevens and the seven and ninees. Those are the
ones you want to forget. This one takes some time
and remember what you guys accomplished, because it was pretty incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I thought it was awesome, just you know, the behind
the scenes footage was was awesome to see that. But
I remember at the time, Paul, internally, there was a
lot of debate do you put up a.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Sixteen in O banner, right, and a lot it was split.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Not everyone agreed, like you do you know, you don't
do that, and you know the sixteen and oh one out,
and you know, it was good to see Bill telling
the team, you know, and he's he said it. You know,
I'm always a guy to move on. You know, it
doesn't really matter. But when you have sixteen and oh,
you don't forget that. You don't forget that.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah, And I was one of the few because I
think it wasn't really split. I think most people were
against it. I had no problem with it, and I'm
not a big fan of the divisional you know. Yeah,
I grew up in Boston, you know, at the Boston
Garden and the Bruins had all the Adams Division titles.
Those did nothing.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, Matt's in the place of the home of the Division.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Absolutely, but you know, sixteen and oh isn't an Adam's
Division title, right.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
At the risk of being the company guy, I will
send kudos to the Crafts, Robert and Jonathan who had
the foresight to say, we need to shoot this. It's
never been seen until this episode came out. Never footage
has never been seen before, and I think fans are
really really going to enjoy seeing it because you're getting
a scene behind the curtain that nobody's seen before. So
(03:30):
we move along until episode five, Brady goes down. There's
a lot of time spent on Brady's injury, how devastated
he was. And Paul, I want to ask you, because
you're the first person I heard talk about this, were
the seeds planted there in that episode that maybe that
Bill doesn't think you need a top tier quarterback in
(03:54):
order to win with how successful relatively speaking, the Patriots
were that year.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Yeah, Look, you never know what's in a guy's mind,
in a person's heart without knowing for sure, right, Like,
it's my feeling from watching this part. And I did
think it was a little odd. Again, they spent so
much time on this season, and I thought it was
sort of throwing a bone to Bill, because I know
Bill's very proud of the fact that they didn't fall apart,
(04:21):
you know, for whatever that means. They went eleven and
five with Matt Castle. But I just I felt like
the commentary of that season was what an unbelievable job
by Bill. Bill's sort of proving that Tom Brady. You know,
one guy said it, I don't forget who that Tom
Brady's actually a system quarterback. That shows it. It was
(04:43):
nonsense and there was not the prevailing wisdom at the time.
And what I really had a problem with with this
was they sort of you know, and I understand that
Tom Brady and the Brady family may have felt like
this because Tom is maniacally competitive, right, and he did
know how he got his job. There was no talk
now of well Tom knows how he got his job,
(05:05):
so he wants to get back out that he may
have been feeling that, but I'm telling you there was
one hundred percent of people in New England that never
gave it a second thought. When Tom Brady's healthy again,
he will take over. Regardless of how Madcastle played very
well that year. He deserves a lot of credit for
playing well. He was never going to take Brady's job.
That was never like, there was no drama there, and
(05:26):
I think they tried to sort of insert it into this.
But I do think to answer Matt's point, Matt Matt's
question the over the top even Bill postgame that last one,
I wish we had a game next week. I think
it was the day after Prescotte. I wish we had
a game next week, but I'm awfully proud of this
team and what it's accomplished. And I thought that was
(05:47):
kind of a way for Bill to say, I'm awfully
proud of myself for not having this fall apart. And
I do wonder if that maybe set the stage for
a little bit of a riff like Tom sort of
reading that, like, oh, you think you can just win
without me, Like, to me, there's a big difference in
five games. Yeah, sixteen and o to eleven and five
showed you just how great Tom Brady was.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I get I understand the director's choice in trying to
create that drama for the sake of storytelling, but you're right,
we were in the middle of it. Remember this is
a team that was sixteen and oh the year before,
not a lot of change the next year and they
were eleven and five, you know, so they lost five
(06:28):
more games than the year before with basically the same
because they didn't have Brady.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
And they prefaced it all Matt by sort of before
they got into eight. You know, Tom when he talked
just how devastating that seven loss was, you know, and
he really, you know, it was it was just a
devastating loss for them. But he said, we looked at
the two thousand and eight year as a redemption year
for us. You know, we felt like we had the
same team, right, and it was going to be a
(06:54):
redemption year. So again, redemption years don't result in minus
five right in the win loss total. So again I
think it was I think it's admirable that they didn't
fall apart. Yeah, but they also didn't make the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I thought the Brady interview coming off of the Super
Bowl loss was one of the most insightful things, and
I think fans will enjoy seeing just how you could
tell how beat up Brady was about that loss and
how it eats him still to this day. Just one
of the things on the you know, the Brady family.
And I think it was Tom Senior who mentioned when
he was talking about coach Belichick and he said, well,
(07:31):
you know, coach Belichick, if you're not around, out of side,
out of mind. And my question is when he said that,
is that really different from a lot of other coaches.
Isn't that generally the way it is when somebody's injured,
that you're out of side out of mind.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It definitely used to be.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You know, coaches didn't want injured players around. They would
tell him, you know, get lost, not in those way,
but you know, but lately though, you do see more
injured guys hanging out on the sideline. You know, Aaron
Rodgers of course is famously but that sentiment has kind
of changed. But you know, ten fifteen years ago, I'm
(08:09):
sure a lot of coaches said, listen, if you're out
for the season, go rehab, do what you have to do.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
We'll see you next.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Thing, and real quick, I would just say that the
reason that that changed is because the IR rules have changed,
and now when you're on IR, you're not out of sight,
out of mind.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
You could come back, right.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
So you know, when Brady went on IR, he was
done for the year, no matter what happened. So obviously
he wouldn't have been able to come back anyway. But
now you go on IR in week one, if you're
healthy in week thirteen, you can play. That wasn't the
case then, So I do think it was out of sight,
out of mind for most teams. Man.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I think you're right, And it wasn't just a Bill thing.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Right, A new character was introduced in episode five, and
again the directors and the production crew there did it
in a very dramatic way with the dramatic pan and
the sight of Alex Guerrero.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Yeah, again this is this goes back to my theory.
And you guys know, you guys always make fun of
me because I always they always have these conspiracy theories
and you know, hidden meanings. I think this was if
you want to go back to the seeds of the
rift being sown, this is part of it. This gets
Guerrero into his life. McGinnis. Evidently, you know, hooks Brady
(09:22):
up with Alice Guerrero, he helped him with his rehab,
and I think therein you know that there's a conflict
as how this is going to happen. Right, Bill did
not appreciate Guerrero's presence, and Bill was, I think, help
bent on showing that he didn't need Brady to win,
and Brady, being the competitor that he was, didn't even
want to go on ir with a torn a cl
(09:44):
He wanted to stay out there. He will lobbied, yeah,
to stay out there and play. And I just feel
like all of these things sort of conspired to lead
to the rift.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And if you remember, like mass General was ready and
willing to do that surgery in Brady chose to go
to LA to have it done and then he gets
the infection. And I'm sure there was a lot of
eye rolling and headshaking within these walls of like, why
didn't you just stay here and get it done?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Why you have to go all the way to LA?
See what happened? So Matt, I want to give you
guys another plug. And I know you don't like when
we do this, but you know, again, all of these
stories we were sort of familiar with. We might not
know every detail, but we're familiar with it. The stuff
that's new is the footage that Matt's talking about and
a lot of the stuff that Matt and the crew shot.
And I thought there was some really good locker room
(10:32):
scenes in this season. And again it's no surprise because
it was sort of an ode to Belichick. But you know,
Bill flat out saying in ninety nine, the Rams lost
Trent Green and Kurt Wanner took him to the super Bowl.
You know, one we lost Drew Bledsoe and Brady took
us to the super Bowl. This saw on you, now, Castle,
you know like, I thought that was really interesting stuff
(10:53):
that I hadn't seen.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Matt.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
You probably have, but I don't think it's been shown
publicly until this. I think fans will find some of
these interactions. And then even with him teasing uh Mad
after the Jets win. I know you haven't started the
game since the seventh grade, but you did today and
he gave him the game ball. I thought that was
good stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
The fact that Bill said that, you know, you know
the history part of it. Do you think in his
mind he thought they actually could go to the super Bowl?
Speaker 4 (11:20):
With me, they were absolutely loaded. That team was stacked.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
They were they were, But do you think Bill thought
that they could get to the super Bowl?
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Probably not. But that's not how we. That's not how we,
That's not how he's like wired. He's always wired to
think he has a chance. And I think in his
mind they were a lot better than all one. Yeah
and oh one won the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Matt, what do you think? I think, why not?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Why shouldn't they be able to win if they get
if I think he realized if they get competent, turnover
free football, play out of the quarterback with Moss and Welker,
you still have that jugger out of an offense going. Yeah,
I think he did think they had a chance to
go back to the super Bowl. But I want to
go back to one thing that I think Paul you
(12:07):
mentioned it. You said something along the lines of that
they threw a bone to Belichick. I think a lot
of the criticism that we've been seeing after the first
four episodes from fans from media is that they're out
to get Bill, that Bill is the villain in this
and I think in this episode, I would dispel that
notion right there because they think they I don't know
(12:28):
if it's there going out of their way, but they're
telling the story that how successful the team was that
year and that he helped keep it together with Brady
going down.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Yeah, that's why that's why I referred to it that way.
I agree with you. I thought this was the Bill episode. Yeah,
you know, the majority of the other ones that I've
seen not really been that way.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
The other thing about this episode, episode five, they get
into the nine season a little bit. Yeah, and you
know there's that famous We've seen it before where at
the end of the season, Belichick's on the sideline with
Brady and he's saying to Brady, you know how frust
rating it is. He just can't get this team to
play the way they need to play. And the fact
that he's telling Brady that tells me that the rift
(13:08):
hadn't completely happened yet, you know, because you don't confide
in a guy who you know you're having trouble with
that way. And I think they were still in pretty
good terms in nine. And to me, that's one evidence
of that that Bill was willing to tell Brady, you know,
his innermost feelings about the team.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Yeah, and Matt, one thing that I thought was really
really good the way this this particular episode, episode five,
we want to talk about six two in a second.
I thought they did it really really well, Matt Hamichik
setting up the cliffhanger and this one so you wind
down the OH nine season, and it was disappointing. They
showed the aftermath of that Baltimore game they just weren't
(13:47):
good enough anymore. They had lost, you know, a lot
of veterans that were key parts, and they talk about
those and then they sort of get back to that
sort of pressure to always win and they got to
hit this draft and they the cliffhanger they set up
is obviously drafting Aaron Hernandez, and I just thought that
was not overly dramatic. I thought that was really really
(14:08):
well done, the way they sort of set the stage
for their mindset, you know. And I know it sounds
silly to go from four to nine without a Super
Bowl and feel pressure to win, but it was there
was pressure there, and I thought they did a great
job of sort of encapsulating that the way they set
that cliffhanger up.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I think I think Hamichek does great cliffhangers in this series.
I think it's been a pretty constant theme throughout this
and I think it's one of the nice things. And
as a viewer, I think, oh wow, I want to
get to the next one.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So the next one, Paul, as you say, is episode six,
and it's the Aaron Hernandez episode.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
And watching the episode with somebody yesterday who remain who
will remain nameless? And they couldn't believe the green screen
footage that they started the entire episode with, I think
that that was a network It was not an internal
person's voice. I think that was a networks person's voice.
(15:07):
As the networks are shooting green screen for the upcoming season.
That scene was unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Yeah, I just I thought this this episode was you know,
out of you know, after the first one. This is
probably my next favorite, and not because of the subject
matter obviously, but it was chilling. Yeah, it was chilling
watching it, watching the smile, the personality that that Hernandez had,
(15:34):
knowing the demons that were clearly in his head. Yeah,
I thought they did a you know a good job
of sort of displaying that dichotomy.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
What made this episode for me and we've I've saw,
we've seen the Hernandez documentary, We've seen all that before.
But what made this one was the interviews Dion Branch.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And Brandon Many Lloyd and.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
And Wes Welker. The interviews of people made this episode.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Three wide receivers in this episode were remarkable. They're compelling stuff.
Brandon Lloyd was really good.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
So, Paul, I've heard you say in a couple of
these things, when you've been criticizing some of the episodes,
you say, well, I don't know that I learned anything. Now,
it's tough for somebody like you to learn anything. You
were at a front.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Row seat for this YEP.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
So I ask you about this episode, did you learn
something that you didn't know about after watching this episode?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
I did, and it's these three wide receivers knew, That's
what I learned.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
They knew there was some or at least they said
they should have known.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
There was some darkness there that they knew about, and
they brought to the attention and it seemingly fell on
deaf years. And I think it's easy after the fact
to say, you know, I think Michael Holly is interviewed
in the middle of this episode about he would leave
you some breadcrumbs, but you didn't think that at the time.
You're thinking that in hindsight, Brandon Lloyd, Dion Branch and
(17:01):
Wes Welker are telling you at the time they were
concerned something's not right with this guy, and they brought
it to They couldn't understand. Welker had a remarkable, refreshing,
honest when he was walking around as a as a rookie.
He's running around telling everybody he's the best part returner
on the team, and he's joking around and Bill's laughing,
(17:23):
and Welker said, I just don't get it, Like what
what is it about this kid, right, what? Why is
he get Why are you doing that? Why are you
letting this kid do this?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Right?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
That's he's telling you what he thought at the time,
not in retrospect. And I just thought that those.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Three Why does he why does he love this guy
so much? That's the line, that's the line, I thank
you love this guy so much? Oh my goodness. I
mean when I heard that, I was going, Now, there's honesty.
There's real honesty there.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Do you think any you know, and again Bill's not
gonna talk about it, but do you think Bill's relationship
with urban Meyer had a little bit of a reason
about why he treated Hernandez the way he did.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
He knew what was going on, He knew what was
going on.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
But I think they felt that, you know, eventually it'll
sort itself out.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
But man, he was good. He was good. He was
really good.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
But so was a lot of guys who were rookies,
and Bill didn't treat them the way. He didn't let
them get away with what he let Hernandez get away with.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I don't think he let Gronk get away with what
he let her Nandas get away. That's what I'm saying
and I wonder if it is. I do think that's
a very interesting point you bring up about Urban Meyer.
I think Urban probably felt like he had an idea
of what made Hernandez tick. You know, they go through
the story of how they brought him up to get
him out of New Britain as a seventeen year old,
(18:49):
and that was chilling to me because my son's going
to turn seventeen next week and next month rather and
just to sort of think about him going down to
Florida to start off on his college football career, like,
I couldn't even fathom that right, let alone with the
family life that he was driving behind. Yeah, so I
(19:12):
thought that was another really powerful scene.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
You're listening and watching to the Dynasty recap show wrap
up show, Matt Smith, Paparello and Fred Kersh, there was
another seed planted in this one, same position, different person.
What did you think of Gronkowski's comment about getting the
phone call while he was in New York City on
(19:36):
the stage on Draft Night.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I'm really glad you brought that up now, because that's
exactly where I was going when we talk about how
Bill treated Aaron and then Gronkowski hasn't been on the
team for five minutes and he's already in trouble, you know,
So like, you know the difference there, you know, like
I thought it was funny, but when you put it
(20:01):
in contact with Hernandez, you see how Bill let Hernandez
get away with stuff, where with Gronk's like get him
off the stage.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You know.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Yeah, I thought that the I wrote down in my
notebook when that came by. BB's reaction to Gronk getting
drafted is exactly what we figured it was without you know,
obviously we hadn't seen it, but the way he reacted
was exactly the way I bet you building like that
we were probably right here in this studio, Fred doing
a draft show and saying that at the time.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Did Mercy have mercy? Something that was so funny.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
You know, And he did have a little bit of
a like a ry smile on his face. But again,
you know, like and I do think that he called
and they said, Okay, enough is enough, get off the stage.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
So Fred, I want to ask you a couple of
questions here. These are the tough questions. Of course, there's
a couple couple points in this where Robert Kraft is
being interviewed, and I think you saw a real human
side in Robert Kraft and talking about the Hernandez tragedy
one of the things that I don't think I've ever
heard him say when we ask what did you learn?
(21:07):
I thought it was really fascinating to hear Robert Kraft
talk about learning something about himself that because of this,
he didn't realize if he could ever trust anyone again.
That's how deeply.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Hoodwinked.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I think he feels like and he feels like that's
changed the way he looks at people for the rest
of his life.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, sometimes good things can be a flaw, and I
think one of the flaws at least up to that
point with Robert Kraft was trusting people or you know,
getting enamored with certain types of people.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Let's face it, Robert Kraft.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And Aaron Hernane has come from two different worlds. But
I think Robert wanted kind of that world to like him.
I think, as much as he said in the documentary,
Aaron might have looked at me as sort of a
paternal type of figure. I think Robert wanted to be
a paternal type of figure. I think he would want
to say that kid turned around his life, and I
(22:02):
had a part in that, and I think that overrode
the stuff that maybe didn't allow him to really see
the bad part of Aaron Hernandez right up until the day,
the day after he committed the murder. Robert believed him
when Aaron told him I had nothing to do with this,
you know, don't worry about it. And I really do
(22:25):
believe he was duped. But I do believe that the
reason why he was was part of a flaw in
his own character, A good flaw, you know what I
you know what I'm saying, like what's wrong with trusting
people and wanting you know, but sometimes when you're the
CEO of a company or the owner of a football team,
(22:46):
you know you have that you have that responsibility to
the community that you know you have to look at
things a little bit more jaded. And Robert even said it,
I failed, We failed, you know, and I apologize for that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I thought that was pretty powerful.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Paul, you've been and I heard you talking about it
unfiltered earlier this week, where you don't like the fact
that the three and the four teams were glossed over,
that that's stung that you didn't think they gave that
enough time. Are you back on the beam now? Are
you back on the Dynasty series now? After seeing admittedly
a very chilling episode and not one that's very fun
(23:26):
to watch, but they I think they portrayed the interviews,
as he said, with these people were unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Yeah, I did think that the the Hernandez episode was
was well put together. What I would say, just to
sort of clarify my point about three and o four,
I'm not looking for a recap of all the chapter
and verse wins. Like I, that's America's game. That's a
different that's a different venue, different vehicle for that, I
(23:53):
don't need to have all the all the games highlighted.
What I thought was a missed opportunity was three in particular,
was a highly dramatic, intense situation with the release of
lawyer Malloy on the eve of the season that almost
destroyed that team. They were completely checked out of the
(24:16):
opening game of the season and lost thirty one to nothing,
and the players were not happy with Bill Belichick. I
thought it would have been a fascinating look to hear
from Teddy Bruski, to hear from Tom Brady and all
the other guys about how Tom Jackson's ridiculous assertion that
they all hate their coach galvanised the team, and you.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Want to throw a bone to Bill, that was it back?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
That to me was drama, And I think again, you know,
sort of overlooking Bill's place here, I did something that
was controversial. I lost the team, but I was able
to keep them. I got them back. That to me
is what documentaries are all about, conflict drama. So the
behind the scenes stories. Everybody knows they won twenty one
(25:02):
in a row. Everybody knows they went fourteen to two
and back to back seasons. Again, I don't need to
have all of those things done over again. I just
thought it was a missed opportunity to ignore the lawyer
malloy part in Rodney Harrison's arrival.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yes, yes, I agree.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Well, we will be dropping a new Dynasty wrap up
show podcast every Friday when the Dynasty series drops on Friday,
and as a tease for listeners and viewers, Paul, we
will have the opportunity to talk to both the director,
Matt Hamichick and one of the executive producers, Jeff Benedict
in a future episode when we wrap up the entire series, Paul,
(25:39):
you better have those questions loaded and ready to go
to ask Hamicheck why he didn't delve deeper into the
three season right.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
He probably isn't going to be happy with me, right,
I think he looks at it all good.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Thanks for watching and listening to the Dynasty wrap Up Show.
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