March 8, 2024 • 35 mins
Matt Smith hosts a roundtable with Fred Kirsch, Paul Perillo and Mike Dussault breaking down episodes seven and eight of Apple TV Plus’s exclusive 10-part documentary event, The Dynasty: New England Patriots. Hear the group’s thoughts on the Patriots Super Bowl win over the Seahawks, the Super Bowl comeback from 28-3 to victory over the Falcons and more. The 10-part documentary event, 'The Dynasty: New England Patriots' is streaming now, exclusively on Apple TV Plus.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Some of the content in this podcast may not be
suitable for all audiences.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Welcome to another episode of The Dynasty Wrap Up Show,
and we're here to discuss debate episodes seven and eight
of The Dynasty. The ten part documentary event The Dynasty
New England Patriots is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus.
Mike do So, Fred Kersh, Paul Froller, myself, Matt Smith. Fred.
We're going to start with you out of the chute.
(00:29):
Did you have Rupert Murdoch on your bingo card to
be the first voice heard in episode seven?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
No, I didn't, and I was a little surprised. It's
a good story, you know, one that everyone knows the
details of, so and I questioned the use of it.
And the reason why is there's been a lot of
criticism of the director glossing over Super Bowls, you know,
two and three, And I get it, you know, I
(00:59):
understand why they glossed over that, because they're really kind
of telling a story of how the Dynasty was creating it.
But it's hard for me to justify that and then say, well,
why did you put that story in there? You know
that had nothing to do with the the growth of
the dynasty or the breakup of the dynasty. So while
it's a good story, I think it was you know,
(01:20):
just maybe somebody said, hey, why don't you put this in?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
So Mike, yeah, Fred says, well, we all know the story. Okay,
you weren't here at the time. Okay, did everybody? Does
everybody know that story? Or is that something that that
that kind of a story is going to appeal to
a wider audience.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, I knew. I knew the story.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
It was interesting to hear Robert tell it, and I guess,
you know, at the time, it seemed a little bit strange,
like what are they setting up here? And I think
once we got to the end of the episode, the
way it kind of fit in for me was like
the Patriots have become more than just a football team. Now,
this is like a global brand that is now interacting
with you know, the president of Russia, and you know
Rupert Murdoch, who's a billionaire, and you know another media
(01:57):
owner as well. You know, I guess that's what it
was kind of getting at. It was a little jarring
at first, like, oh my gosh, Ruper murdocks here, But
you know, I do think it's an interesting story, So
it didn't bump me totally.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I kind of see there.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Trying if you've got time to My point is, if
you've got time to tell that story, maybe you have
time to talk a little bit about absolutely. Second, that's
no question about you know, that's that's the only reason
why I think it's a good story.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, And I do think that the time that
it took to tell it was interesting. Obviously they're telling you,
like Mike said, the spotlight's on this team and everybody's
watching every move and it's sort of setting up to
flake Gate, right that the next you know, great tragedy
in Patriots history, and they're trying to get to maybe
how this all came about because there was so much
(02:40):
scrutiny and there was so much of the they hate
us because they ain't us kind of mentality that when
they got that little glimpse of the flake. But are
they doing something again, here we go and I think
they're trying to say, this is how big they were
that everybody was talking about with the Patriots all the time,
so every little bit about the team was noteworthy for everybody.
So I mentioned I mean I didn't, you know, like
(03:02):
I said, it could have been done in two minutes.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I mentioned to Paul off the air, and of course
is accusing me of being a nerd, so guilty as charge.
But the one thing that they kind of played off
of that, which I thought was an interesting segment, was
they used a song not familiar with called all Eyes
on Me, and they they really amplified the point. They
showed Brady and Giselle, they showed Bill and Linda premiere
(03:26):
that they showed Robert, and I just thought that was
really well done, like all Eyes on Me. Yes, yes,
and that's how what the Patriots are.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Oh, that was a great montage. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah,
and you know, it brought back such memories like we're
in the middle of it at the time, but yeah,
I mean it was all Patriots, all the time, Giselle
and Bill and you know, the Crafts and you know
you were at the top, right, you were at you know,
(03:54):
Mount Olympus.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
So see, for me, like the perspective I had is
that was among the most miserable times.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
For me because you're in the middle of ten years.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
No, you're in ten years without a Super Bowl at
that point, and yes they were on top of the world,
but it was also incredibly disappointing. Oh seven, oh eight,
oh nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, all those
years as a fan, it was devastating. And yes they
were on top of the world like that, but there
was also a lot of like time is running out
(04:24):
on this team, and as a fan, you know, and
we'll get to eventually Super Bowl forty nine, but you know,
that was to me the kind of culmination of all
that suffering that you'd had for ten years. So for
me it was, yes, it was nice, but I also
felt as a fan like, I'm not really this wasn't
really like, oh, aren't the Patriots great right now?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Like that was year after year of frustration.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
So that's great because that's the outside the organization, because
the three of us were obviously embedded. We were here
and Mike wasn't at the time. But that sort of illustrates,
I think probably why they chose to go into that
with that montage, to show all the spotlight this in
the scrutiny this team was under. Mike was a huge
Patriots fan and he was growing tired of not winning.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
A championships of any other team would have died exactly.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
This is my point of how you can understand why
Deflake took on the life that it did because everybody
was so sick of this smug organization that went to
AFC Championship games and it wasn't good enough for someone
you put the finger. I mean, I think that does sort.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Of and for us, at least for me, and I
think Tom Brady would share the deflay Gate was we
have to defend our honor. Who's on you? No? But
I mean like it was like, okay, we're back on
the wall. Defend the wall. You know, they're trying to
tear us down again. You know, as a lot of
the people in the documentary said, Jackie, this is a nothing,
(05:54):
but it was the Patriots, so it became a huge thing.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So let's get to that. Okay, this is the episode
there were the majority of the time was spent on
the Flakegate and Mike, let's go to the outside person first.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Did you learn anything?
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Was there any new ground uncovered in your opinion as
they went through this story?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
No, No, there wasn't.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I mean, and if anything, I felt like, you know,
the it was surprising to me because what we've been
hearing kind of from the fans, is that this is
you know that the organization's view of this, and I
felt like the organization's point of view, with how vehemently
they fought against this, was not included. And you know,
I go back to, you know, things that we talked
about with you know, going back to the Jets game
where they over pumped the balls and Brady was pissed
(06:36):
and that led to him talking to his guys, and
you know, so I think that for me, there was
a lot more context there of it felt kind of jarring,
I guess in a way. And I almost wrote down like,
in the context of this episode, four game suspension felt
light to me, and like when it said four game suspension,
I go, that's all he got.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
But then all of a sudden, the wheel kind of
turned and you have.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Jackie Max saying what you said, Fred, that it was
a kind of a farce, and like, when did that happen?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Because right now, the way it's been kind of portrayed
is that this was serious. Well that's that they were
cheaters and they really did.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
There were a lot of contradictions by the people in
the documentary, like Goodell, for example, I have the utmost
respect and admiration for Tom Brady, Yet I just called
him a cheater and a liar. That doesn't make sense
to me. And the and like you said, the way
the NFL treated this and everything, I think they got
off four game suspension is getting off easy compared to
(07:28):
how they framed this thing. You know, this was like
dragged on for two years.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That was surprised. It was surprising and surprise myself and.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Like not thinking forward and knowing what was coming and
just and then he got a four game suspension and
I was thinking of it.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Like that's it. That's all he got that. You know,
it's strange.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
So, Paul, do you think and I don't want to
put words into your mouth, but do you how do
you think it was handled when you ultimately saw it
as one who lived through it? How do you think
that the people who created this ultimately presented to.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
And presented as a joke. I thought, Tom, I'm current,
you know, when he starts off and he's he's got
that sort of tongue in cheek kind of look, you know,
and it's kind of a Tom Curran smirk. I like
to call it. I tease him about it.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
All the time.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
But you know, he starts off with a you know,
they were tipped off by Baltimore and the NFL was
looped in through an email like all this stuff, Like,
so what are you saying like they didn't do it,
like it was only because they had it out for
them or like, and then you sort of go through
it and Jackie mcmollin, as Red and Mike already talked
about this is a big nothing burger. I've always said
(08:33):
that the four game suspension to me seemed ludicrous. The
punishment was was was way too harsh. But I would
have liked to have gotten some answers from some of
the people involved as to exactly what happened. I'm sure
that they made efforts to try to get in touch
with like say McNally and just Stremski, but the principles
involved in this weren't talked about.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yet.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
We get to see David Portnoy at the at the
headquarters with that farce of a thing for Barstool.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I mean, this is going, you know, deeper than actually
a documentary went. But there's an old saying it's not
the crime, it's the cover up. And I think the
fact that Brady destroyed his cell phone and you know,
just wouldn't let it go. That made it worse.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
That was a clever That was a funny clip they
put together of Affleck with Bill Simmons, then Matt Damon,
I think with.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
You know, one of the Late Night Rich Island Rich Eyes,
and then Bill Bill Burr.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Was was very funny and that's exactly what Bill Burr says,
you get suspended because he wouldn't give him their phone,
you know. So I do think there was parts of
it that I thought they put together, Like you talked
about the montage early that I thought that sequence of
the Boston like that really encapsulated the Boston fan.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
These three guys, I'll tell you what was great and
just helps sort of put it in perspective a little bit.
Is we're all now saying I think that it was
kind of a joke, okay, and maybe that can be
said a little bit with time and in hindsight. I
thought the use of al Michaels and the clip that
they had from the jimbal Cash Show and where he's
(10:01):
talking about he goes, yeah, that was the lead story
on the newscast and I oh, by the way, in
other news.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You know, the government of just you know, like you
guys are getting.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
We're gonna lead with the flight end and he goes
in other news.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Right, But that was just a jarring switch to me
because I mean, look, this team was going to the
super Bowl. This is the integrity of the most popular
sport in the world that was going on. So you know, look,
it's you always operate from a sense that we're working
in sports and it's not you know, any of those
more serious things. But again, that that was just kind
of tonally. The tonal shift didn't really match up.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Whether I would have loved to have seen the same
thing happen but in week one and what would have
been the result.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Yeah, And I just say two, Fred, I thought you,
I thought you had a good line while we were
watching it.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
You said, so no interception, no deflake eight.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Is that what they're implying like if they had never
gotten their hands on a ball, would would be like darn,
you know, we have no way to prove it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And that all led to and and I thought it
was candled well like did I can't remember who the
person was that said it, but maybe it was Peter King.
Although we don't see him. This is the biggest game
of Tom Brady's life at that point in time. You know,
you had the Stephen A. Smith saying is for his legacy?
I never heard he's got to win the game. Wasn't
(11:15):
his legacy kind of in a decent spot at that point.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
In time, So like just out of curiosity. So let's
say he goes out there and he plays a football
game and Pete Carroll doesn't have an aneurysm with thirty
seconds left and he hands the ball to Marshawn Lynch.
That changes Tom Brady's.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Legacy right right.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
If Marshawn Lynch scores a touchdown at the two yard
line of the one yard wherever he was, Like, that's
an indictment on Brady. Now like the Stephen A. Smith drama,
And listen, that's Stephen A.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Smith. He's manly.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Who am I to said? He's made a career, a
very lucrative one out of doing exactly what he did.
I just I think sometimes we look these some of
these points come up on the on the episodes that
we've watched, and I sort of left to saying, was
it really like that?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Like was it real? Like did anybody really think that
Tom Brady was going to be considered a fraud if
they lost.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
That well, I know, but I think, to me, I
think that the documentary is doing a good job painting
a picture of what Brady's mindset might have been like
as we get to the end of the dynasty, beginning
with perhaps being thrown under the bus by his coach,
and then, you know, I don't want to get too
(12:22):
far ahead of ourselves with the other things that happened,
but all these things built up. You know, why am
I being questioned about to flay Kate? You know, like,
doesn't anyone believe me when I say I'm not lying?
You know, Like, and then they go back to you know,
you know, we'll see they do go back to Michigan
and show how he had to fight, you know, against
(12:43):
Drew Henson there, Like all these little things are adding
up in Tom Brady's mind that nobody believes in me. Really,
even at this point, I still have to fight for
whether it's how good I am or my name my word,
you know, and.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
The stuff that the documentary to have heard him say,
stuff like yeah, he didn't, you know, And that's and
I think at the time I was probably a little
bit like a la la la la, I don't want
to hear it.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
But watching it now with a little bit more perspective
and getting to hear Bill say, what, you know, what
you pointed out, you have to talk to kind of
the quarterback on that, and then seeing Brady kind of
squirm up there and not look well rehearsed that that
was I think it's maybe just the distance I've had
from it that context, it did seem like it jarred me.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
They do talk about it about the Mortensen report and
how that was debunked, but at the time of that
press conference, it was it was known by everyone or
believed by everyone, that eleven of the twelve balls were
drastically underway. That was still wasn't the case. So Belichick
went out there thinking that was fact, Brady went out
there thinking that was fact, and with no answers to.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
That, and there was no mention of the I believe
there was a second Bill press conference, wasn't there.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Where they said we went into experiment that kind of thing.
So no mention of that as well.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Again that and I goes back to my other point
of I think they really downplayed the Patriots pushback on
this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Well, right, they got into the but they didn't talk
about the Wells report in contact with me.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And so just as we pivot from episode seven to
episode eight, they win super Bowl forty nine and another
nerd moment for me and with a little bit of pride.
One of the great shots captured internally by this organization
is the shot behind Tom Brady scoreboard is in the
foreground and he's watching as oh, they're going into score
(14:32):
and Butler picks the ball off and our cameras behind
the bench are capturing him jumping up and down. And
you want to talk about, like, what's your choice there
is if you're a camera person, who are you going
to pick?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
The choose?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
And the choice was let's stay on Tom. I think
that shot paid off. Yeah, And I think that decision paid.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I think that's an iconic shot. It's an unbelievable last forever. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, I thought they did a pretty good job covering
that game.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
But I would just say overall, this episode felt a
little tedious to me and was kind of dragging, and
I just you know, I didn't really feel the Hernandez episode.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I watched it twice.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
It moved, I you know, felt invested consistently, and this one,
I think, you know, what I'm finding with this series,
what I most enjoy and that's what I most enjoyed
with generally, is the behind the scenes stuff, Bill talking
to the team, Tom talking to the team, the old footage.
Anytime there's any of that stuff, I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Highlights.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
We seen him a hundred times. But this episode to me,
a lot of deflake Gate really kind of drags.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
I'm with Mike. I thought the raw emotion that they
did capture, you know, and some of the stuff was
probably you guys too, you know, Matt, like you know,
and I know we've seen it. But Brady's interaction with
Malcolm Butler, you know, phenomenal, That's that's great, phenomenal, you know.
And then they have Butler and what does Butler say?
That meant as much to me as anything that happened
to saying that, like that's what Tom Brady's stature was
(15:48):
at the time, and.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Knowing and him talking about how he felt before the play,
like I just let up that pass even though.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Even I had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
But he felt like if we lose, this is gonna
be my fall and I'm not going to get another
chance to go in there, right, and then he gets
another chance.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So let's move on to episode eight, Okay, and right
out of the shoot, we're going to highlight the second
round draft pick in the twenty fourteen draft, Jimmy Garoppolo.
And so now you see where the story is starting
to go. I think Robert Kraft mentions the fact that
is told to him by Coach Belichick as they were
(16:25):
looking at the pick. We have to be ready to
move on the very famous Bill Belichick quote in the
press conference, Paul, everybody knows what Tom's contract status in ages.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
Yeah, and you know he talked about that right off
the go, and I thought Robert saying that he felt
like it was a statement from Bill Belichick. Yeah, the
drafting of Garoppolo in and of itself was a statement.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And we always ask what did you learn? And this
first time I've heard that. You know, in this Robert says,
Bill came to me and told me about his passes
over twenty yards and how he's deep, which some of.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
That stuff you've seen sprinkled into some of these stories
that are like the Seth Wickersham, right, but specifically the
long ball, you know, passes over twenty yards worse than
the league. You know, I think Bill in the press
conference also said that you'd rather be a year earlier
than year late at that position.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
That quote stood out to me, Paul, and I wrote
that one down, and you know which one was out.
Better to be early at that position than late.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And I couldn't help but think about twenty twenty and.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
You know where was that where we weren't ready at
all for when Tom Brady.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Left and again the drafting of Garoppolo. We're building what's
going on in Tom's mind? You know, he's more and
more thinking I don't have the support of my coach,
maybe not my team, but certainly not my coach. And
this is building. We're building to the to the split up.
I mean the break.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
They've been building that, I mean since the eight one
they started when I mean the quotes.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Where if you're not here, you're you know, out of mind.
And I think that ever since you get.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Through those first couple episodes, you've been planning nuggets all
the time of just how much Bill Belichick. You know
you're there when you're there, but once you're out, you're out.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, the only thing about eight is in the episode
they go to nine, and we talked about it on
this podcast before. But when Belichick's on the sideline with
Brady's I can't get this team to play, it's so
frustrated the fact that he's confiding in Brady with those
types of thoughts. Fred, he you know, he means that
they were still in pretty good terms at that point.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
And I think there are things that he does, even
in this one, that he's given Bill, you know, given
tom as flowers as the kids like to say, you know,
and but the bottom line is, yeah, you're saying these things,
but your actions are telling a different story. Yeah, but
you know you're drafting my replacement. You're telling that you
know it's better to be earlier than late. That's your mindset.
I think you're telling me that I'm still great, but
(18:53):
you're not showing me that.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
But I you know, this is just me. I don't
know this to be true, but I think no, Wait,
Brady was still with Belichick in terms of you know,
the honeymoon, all equal, you know, patriot way put the
team first. But I think Brady started to change, you know,
I don't know when when did he like he got Alex.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Well, but Alex is when That's why I think eight
is the start. If you were going to just do
a documentary on the rift between Bill Belichick and Tom Brady,
I think that would be good.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Because I think that was about the time when people
started getting in his ear Alex and Giselle. You know, Tom,
they don't respect you, Tom.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You know the Wes Welker quote right of your like
this little puppy, do you just keep coming? You keep
crawling back to him?
Speaker 5 (19:43):
That's speaking of like the West. Well, I thought Ala
is really that maybe the court of the series in
this whole in this whole episode, I thought he was
really insightful. That's the money quote, the one that everybody
saw in the trailer about you know, we played for Tom,
but we worked for Bill. The other way around.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
He worked for Bill, we worked for Bill, we played
for Tom.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
But I just thought that him illustrating the tension that
was building between Brady and Garoppolo as they're coming, you
know into that training camp in the suspension again, great
training camp stuff on the field.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I'll get back to you on like, what's the best
advice he's given to because he doesn't give it he
never gave him any it.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So you're watching and listening to the Dynasty New England
Patriots wrap up show, and we're talking about episode eight here,
Jimmy Garoppolo. I remember thinking about it after the fact.
I think we all talked about it. Garoppolo appears to
be a necessary kick in the tail for Tom Brady.
Tom took his candidacy seriously, and while he was certainly
(20:41):
not falling off a cliff, like Kellerman said, his performance
up to fourteen statistically at least was going down, so
there was some legitimacy there. The series decided to go
in the Garoppolo as a threat to Brady and compared
it to back in the University of Michigan days when
Tom was battling Drew Henson. Mike, what'd you think of
that comparison?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
It felt a little late to me.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
I mean, I think we kind of had already the
ship had kind of sailed on establishing who Tom Brady was,
what motivated Tom Brady, So to me, it felt a
little bit sideways on that initially, you know, going back
to Michigan seeing him there. I see why they made
the connection obviously with him going there during his suspension.
But to me, it's just felt like we kind of
know this stuff. We're already kind of passed, like the
prologue of it. Let's get to what we're doing now.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
In the programming note, as Mike talks about, you know,
the decisions being made, and we're all talking about some
of the decisions being made during the series. We'll be
fortunate enough in a coming episode to have the author
of the book, Jeff Benedict, and the director of the series,
Matt Hamicheck, to join us on a podcast. So we
invite you, the listeners and viewers you are going to question.
(21:45):
You want to ask these guys something about the series,
please email us at web radio at Patriots dot com.
If we like your email, we'll ask these guys what
it was.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Back to the Michigan thing, you thought it was a
little bit out of context, A little bit, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Think I would have. I would have liked to have
seen the Michigan thing earlier on in this I liked it.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
The more I think about it, I like it where
it was because you know, Garoppolo happens, and you know,
we're wondering, well, why should Brady care about Garoppolo? He
knows he's better than him, like he knows he's not
a threat, but it's just another thing that makes him upset.
(22:24):
And now we need to go back to Michigan to
see where did this maybe start, Like where did this
you know, hatred of anyone who might be a threat
to you start? And it's because it might be because
at Michigan he felt he was you know, not appreciated
and done dirty by Lloyd Carr with Drew Henson. And
(22:46):
I thought it the more I think about it, it
makes sense to go back and and you know, relive
his mindset throughout his career, like you know, like we
we and then we you know, we hear in the
first episode, you know, like how competitive he was just
playing Techmobile and just like every little thing you know,
just you know, he's ultra competitive and he's wired that way.
(23:10):
And it goes back to like maybe you know, it
might have started here.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It's a good point.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I mean, I do think it's a good point, a
good good cop that you make. And because I was
with Matt a little bit, I thought it was ill timed.
I would have I liked the anecdote, not necessarily that
Drew hens Henson part but his buddy, Jay Flannery, who
you know, we all sort of know when Boston from
you know, he's he's his buddy, and you know, he
tells that story about the media day and the line
that Drew Henson had behind him, you know, signing autographs,
(23:39):
and Brady's sort of looking and'.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Like you kidding me?
Speaker 5 (23:42):
This kid hasn't done a thing, right, I'm the starter,
I'm the captain. And what did Flannery call it? That
the Tom Brady death? And I got a good clip
at him stand on the sidelines. So I did like
that anecdote. I thought it would have been just as
valuable earlier in the in the episode. But Fred, you
make a compelling point because he's looking at it as
Jimmy Garoppolo, as Drew Henson. He hasn't done anything, and
(24:04):
he replaced me out to me, the big difference is, well,
now Brady's at the end. He's old, like I don't
think Belichick did I know, but he was. And Belichick
looked at it as a guy who was going to
be forty, and.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
He looked at the actuarial table and said this generally,
does this is the way it goes?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
News flash?
Speaker 5 (24:23):
Yes, he was going to be forty, he's thirty nine
years old or wherever he was at the time.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Yeah, Now Brady ended up outlasting yet. But it didn't
have to be treated like like Drew Henson had done
nothing right, Like I think Tom Brady had a right
to have a chip on his shoulder about Drew Henson.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
This I think is this is life.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Like no one can be the guy forever, and he
ended up being the guy for longer than anybody would
have predicted.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, So they move off of the Michigan Garoppolo comparison
to the Tom Brady Revenge Tour, which a really gets
us into the playoffs, but they plant the seeds of
still unsettled. The team's unsettled, and Matthew Slater is introduced
in this episode for the first time. And I think
Patriot fans and all of us have a perception and
(25:14):
a point of view about how Matthew Slater is. It
was eye opening to me to see some of the
things that he said in regards to how he thought
Tom was being treated that year. Mike, what did you think?
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Yeah, me too, I mean that's you know, we Matthew
Slater just retired, so We're really used to hearing Matthew
Slater like team representative, you know, never would never be
one to say some of those kind of things. So
I certainly thought it was interesting, and I mean, it
just highlighted to me the difficulty of Bill Belichick and
the way that he manages a team, which was treating everybody,
you know, that same and keeping everybody on the same level.
But you had Tom Brady who inescapably moved beyond that,
(25:48):
and it's just it's a really hard situation, I think,
to manage. That's to me what it highlighted, how hard
it was to manage a superstar who's awesome and you're
still kind of giving him, you know, pointing out all
the big problems on tape, and you know the teams
seeing that. But but the kid, Tom Brady is taking
it hard and you can feel the rising tension.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
But you know, Belichick has been nothing if not consistent,
over incredibly consistent. That's what he's always done. But Brady changed, you.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Know, and everyone's perspective of Brady.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Change, and I think that players did think that, you know,
Bill's taking a little bit more out on Brady than
the rest of us, just to make a point, and
he probably was. But for Brady that hurt.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
It hurt. And this isn't a referendum on who was
right and who was wrong. We're just sort of recapping
where it kind of went wrong. And I do think
that not only Slater, I thought Dante Stalworth, Wes Welker
again with the abused dog, when they were talking about
how hard Bill was on Tom. I thought all of
those guys had had some interesting comments and it was
(26:50):
interesting to hear just like how eye opening it was
to them, like treating Brady this way.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Muss they did.
Speaker 5 (26:59):
He did capitate to Cass came into that as well,
which you know, obviously stuff that had happened earlier, but
it just sort of spoke, and I do think that's
that's a difference. And that's why I think the chronology
of this is interesting to me, because by sixteen you
have quotes from Randy Moss, Dante Stalworth, and Wes Welker.
They were all gone right by then Slater was still there,
(27:22):
so that Slater may have been speaking in the present,
you know, with regard to sixteen, I'm not surprised to
hear that Bill Belichick was really tough on Tom Brady
in two thousand and seven when Randy Moss got here,
but he was still doing the same Johnny Foxborough stuff
in sixteen.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah. But here's the thing that we noticed, and if
we noticed, I'll bet you the players noticed. He wasn't
that way with Castle, and he wasn't that way in
the first three games with Garoppolo.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
Well, he definitely wasn't with Garoppolo. But Castle tells the
story about how he was like, you know, well, we
had to call your mother because you can't pick steals
the top gun line. You know, the defense departments Formio
that your son's dead because they were stupid, you know,
because he can't pick it up.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
In terms of the praise that he heaped on Castle
at the press conference, and you know that you could
see the joy after that first winning Arizona with Garoppolo
on the sideline by Belichick. I mean you know that
was personal for Belichick.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Yeah, it's two separate seeking out of Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And if we noticed it, these players are.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
The players noticed it noted it.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Tom wasn't there right.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
Because he wasn't allowed to be, not because he didn't
want to be.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
So they chose to use the locker room speech from
coach Belichick after the Houston Divisional game, And as we
talked about this before we were rolling, let's look at
that Houston Divisional game and look at it for what
it was. That was not an inspiring performance. That's the
Tomato Can Divisional round where they always used to just
mop the floor with the team. They didn't Astweilers started
for the Texans. If they had any kind of modicum
(28:58):
of quarterback play, that the different game than what happened
to be.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Paul.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
You looked up tom stats in that game and they
were pedestrian.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Two touchdowns, two picks, two hundred and eighty seven yards.
I think his passer rating was like sixty eight. Not
vintage Tom Brady. Certainly in the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
They played down to the competent, and so Fred talks
about the consistency of Bill Belichick. That locker room speech
to me embodied everything that Bill Belichick is all about. Congratulations,
we won the game. We're going to be playing the
ANC championship game. You see Devin mccordy going around, going
to the chip, We're going to the ship. Bill's point was,
if you play like this in the next round, it's
(29:35):
not going to be good enough. And I think that
that's consistent with the way that that message was delivered
throughout Yes, Mike.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Yes, And I mean I think to me it showed
the contrast between you know, the divisional rounds when they
were playing the Colts in the three or four you know,
those epic battles Steve McNair and you know what kind
of became known as the Tomato Cans and these games.
And I agree with what Fred said playing down to
the competition. I mean, I think this was another kind
of bigger point to just what how dominant this team was,
(30:04):
especially within the AFC AFC conference.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
So they get to the Super Bowl and they're taking
on Atlanta in that game, and there's been a lot
of talk that there hasn't been there fans haven't been
able to enjoy or relive some of the real highlights
that have been going on in the dynasty. I thought
in this particular game, this was the Tom Brady h
(30:28):
ceremony and to see the greatness and to hear from
people the Josh McDaniels, well, once we got to hear
you're just just a question where we gonna have enough
time on the clock. And I thought that was as
a person who's invested in seeing the Patriots win, this
was really good stuff to see.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Oh god, yeah it was.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
I would just say I think it's probably maybe a
question for the director of what a challenge it is.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
To show the highlights, because.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
We've seen all the highlights, we've kind of known it,
and you know, there are certain points that were missed
on you know, on this with you know, and I'm
not complaining about that, like you only have so much time.
We don't you know, necess sssarily need to see Julio
Jones catching the ball within field goal range and then
them you know, getting backed out fifteen yards. So it's
you know, maybe a question for him, a check of
just how do you balance you know, showing the game,
showing trying to tell the story of the game, but
(31:13):
not getting too bogged down and being like a sports center.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
And I don't think they tried to show the story
of the game. I think they tried to show the
story of Tom Brady.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, that's the real way to put it, absolutely, And.
Speaker 5 (31:22):
I think that's It's not a bad ye. It wasn't
a bad course to take.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
And to hear Brady talk about what he was thinking
after the pick six and you know, you like, how
many times have we seen Brady on an interception I'm
washed up? Yeah, half assed effort, not really trying. He
lunged to try to make a hit on that play
and it's a shot of him on his knees as
he's running by, going, oh my, you know we're down
(31:46):
by this much. I thought Brady was really insightful at that.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Point in time. Yeah, And I again, I think I
think the director, Matt did a really good job of
selecting what the quotes were, including that Brady quote, what
was on his mind. Now we're gonna lose the game,
they're gonna call me washed up?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You know it's me.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
And then you hear all the praise, you know, with
the comeback and including Poli and and all that stuff,
and he's getting the praise just not from the people
that he wants it from, like, not everybody. It's not
getting it from Bill.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
And I thought they did a great job first. You know,
you brought Puoli just real quick, fascinating if that's exactly
like you know, we've Matt and I have talked to Scott.
We had a great podcast with him. He's a great storyteller.
I just would wonder if did he really like twenty
eight to three, Scott, really you would that worried twenty
to three?
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, okay, but whatever, great moment. But it's a great line.
That's a great line.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Fred Freddy Kruger, Freddy Kruger comes to you in the dreams.
I'm like you should Jason Vorhees is the one that
you can't kill. Freddy Krueger is like nobody's asleep.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
He's on the dream side.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
All right, but he keeps coming back. Nerd, can you
just turn your nerd off of fire? He met the
he meant the guy at Halloween, right, who's that guy?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Michael Meyers? Michael another one? Yeah, yeah, they I'll do.
But anyway, metaphor, I didn't anticipate, I digress.
Speaker 5 (33:12):
And I have it. It's a little paraphrase here, but
there was a shot from a post game or postseason
after the comeback, and Belichick says Tom's performance was like
everybody else's in that it was related to everybody else,
and then he says, but Tom did some stuff, you know.
Then he sort of said, but credit to the team generally, right,
(33:34):
you know, like Tom's just like everybody else is one
of the team. He's relying on the other team all
the team. I'm sorry you just came back from twenty
eight to three down because your quarterback was balls perfect
for the last fifteen minutes of the game, when any
one of those mistakes could have been like like Atlanta,
any one of those plays had Atlanta made and the
game was over. Anyone that the Patriots didn't make would
(33:56):
have meant the game was over. And the best he
could do was kind of say, like everybody else, he
was reliant on everybody else. Yeah, And then he did say,
you know, like, but what he did, there's stuff that
no one else has ever done at that age, something
like that. But again, age age, that's it.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
There always has to be a qualified yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Well, and there's always seemingly a cliffhanger. Now, it wasn't
as dramatic as the drafting of Hernandez or the Spygate
cliffhangers that we've seen in this series so far, but Fred,
you mentioned it. It's pounding the thought.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Home about age.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And so we're now through eight episodes of this documentary
series with just two to go, and I think the
seeds have firmly been planted that age, and how is
this going to continue with this guy? Can?
Speaker 4 (34:44):
I don't think it's gonna I mean, I just to me,
I had a real quick, just an experience that I
had similar to when watching Super Bowl fifty one, which
when we saw Tom's mom on the sidelines and she
had her head wrapped up and all of a sudden,
you kind of realize that they're more going on here
than you really realized. And I thought the marriage I
(35:04):
thought the same way about this documentary, where you know,
that was another element that I think was really on
Tom Brady's mind. It was a big factor through all
of this that you know, I thought maybe could have
been highlighted as well.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Okay, so nice job everybody. Hence concludes the Dynasty wrap
up show for episodes seven and eight. We'll see you
where they wrap up this documentary series later on.
Some of the content in this podcast may not be
suitable for all audiences.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Welcome to another episode of The Dynasty Wrap Up Show,
and we're here to discuss debate episodes seven and eight
of The Dynasty. The ten part documentary event The Dynasty
New England Patriots is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus.
Mike do So, Fred Kersh, Paul Froller, myself, Matt Smith. Fred.
We're going to start with you out of the chute.
(00:29):
Did you have Rupert Murdoch on your bingo card to
be the first voice heard in episode seven?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
No, I didn't, and I was a little surprised. It's
a good story, you know, one that everyone knows the
details of, so and I questioned the use of it.
And the reason why is there's been a lot of
criticism of the director glossing over Super Bowls, you know,
two and three, And I get it, you know, I
(00:59):
understand why they glossed over that, because they're really kind
of telling a story of how the Dynasty was creating it.
But it's hard for me to justify that and then say, well,
why did you put that story in there? You know
that had nothing to do with the the growth of
the dynasty or the breakup of the dynasty. So while
it's a good story, I think it was you know,
(01:20):
just maybe somebody said, hey, why don't you put this in?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
So Mike, yeah, Fred says, well, we all know the story. Okay,
you weren't here at the time. Okay, did everybody? Does
everybody know that story? Or is that something that that
that kind of a story is going to appeal to
a wider audience.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, I knew. I knew the story.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
It was interesting to hear Robert tell it, and I guess,
you know, at the time, it seemed a little bit strange,
like what are they setting up here? And I think
once we got to the end of the episode, the
way it kind of fit in for me was like
the Patriots have become more than just a football team. Now,
this is like a global brand that is now interacting
with you know, the president of Russia, and you know
Rupert Murdoch, who's a billionaire, and you know another media
(01:57):
owner as well. You know, I guess that's what it
was kind of getting at. It was a little jarring
at first, like, oh my gosh, Ruper murdocks here, But
you know, I do think it's an interesting story, So
it didn't bump me totally.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I kind of see there.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Trying if you've got time to My point is, if
you've got time to tell that story, maybe you have
time to talk a little bit about absolutely. Second, that's
no question about you know, that's that's the only reason
why I think it's a good story.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, And I do think that the time that
it took to tell it was interesting. Obviously they're telling you,
like Mike said, the spotlight's on this team and everybody's
watching every move and it's sort of setting up to
flake Gate, right that the next you know, great tragedy
in Patriots history, and they're trying to get to maybe
how this all came about because there was so much
(02:40):
scrutiny and there was so much of the they hate
us because they ain't us kind of mentality that when
they got that little glimpse of the flake. But are
they doing something again, here we go and I think
they're trying to say, this is how big they were
that everybody was talking about with the Patriots all the time,
so every little bit about the team was noteworthy for everybody.
So I mentioned I mean I didn't, you know, like
(03:02):
I said, it could have been done in two minutes.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I mentioned to Paul off the air, and of course
is accusing me of being a nerd, so guilty as charge.
But the one thing that they kind of played off
of that, which I thought was an interesting segment, was
they used a song not familiar with called all Eyes
on Me, and they they really amplified the point. They
showed Brady and Giselle, they showed Bill and Linda premiere
(03:26):
that they showed Robert, and I just thought that was
really well done, like all Eyes on Me. Yes, yes,
and that's how what the Patriots are.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Oh, that was a great montage. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah,
and you know, it brought back such memories like we're
in the middle of it at the time, but yeah,
I mean it was all Patriots, all the time, Giselle
and Bill and you know, the Crafts and you know
you were at the top, right, you were at you know,
(03:54):
Mount Olympus.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
So see, for me, like the perspective I had is
that was among the most miserable times.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
For me because you're in the middle of ten years.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
No, you're in ten years without a Super Bowl at
that point, and yes they were on top of the world,
but it was also incredibly disappointing. Oh seven, oh eight,
oh nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, all those
years as a fan, it was devastating. And yes they
were on top of the world like that, but there
was also a lot of like time is running out
(04:24):
on this team, and as a fan, you know, and
we'll get to eventually Super Bowl forty nine, but you know,
that was to me the kind of culmination of all
that suffering that you'd had for ten years. So for
me it was, yes, it was nice, but I also
felt as a fan like, I'm not really this wasn't
really like, oh, aren't the Patriots great right now?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Like that was year after year of frustration.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
So that's great because that's the outside the organization, because
the three of us were obviously embedded. We were here
and Mike wasn't at the time. But that sort of illustrates,
I think probably why they chose to go into that
with that montage, to show all the spotlight this in
the scrutiny this team was under. Mike was a huge
Patriots fan and he was growing tired of not winning.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
A championships of any other team would have died exactly.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
This is my point of how you can understand why
Deflake took on the life that it did because everybody
was so sick of this smug organization that went to
AFC Championship games and it wasn't good enough for someone
you put the finger. I mean, I think that does sort.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Of and for us, at least for me, and I
think Tom Brady would share the deflay Gate was we
have to defend our honor. Who's on you? No? But
I mean like it was like, okay, we're back on
the wall. Defend the wall. You know, they're trying to
tear us down again. You know, as a lot of
the people in the documentary said, Jackie, this is a nothing,
(05:54):
but it was the Patriots, so it became a huge thing.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So let's get to that. Okay, this is the episode
there were the majority of the time was spent on
the Flakegate and Mike, let's go to the outside person first.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Did you learn anything?
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Was there any new ground uncovered in your opinion as
they went through this story?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
No, No, there wasn't.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I mean, and if anything, I felt like, you know,
the it was surprising to me because what we've been
hearing kind of from the fans, is that this is
you know that the organization's view of this, and I
felt like the organization's point of view, with how vehemently
they fought against this, was not included. And you know,
I go back to, you know, things that we talked
about with you know, going back to the Jets game
where they over pumped the balls and Brady was pissed
(06:36):
and that led to him talking to his guys, and
you know, so I think that for me, there was
a lot more context there of it felt kind of jarring,
I guess in a way. And I almost wrote down like,
in the context of this episode, four game suspension felt
light to me, and like when it said four game suspension,
I go, that's all he got.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
But then all of a sudden, the wheel kind of
turned and you have.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Jackie Max saying what you said, Fred, that it was
a kind of a farce, and like, when did that happen?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Because right now, the way it's been kind of portrayed
is that this was serious. Well that's that they were
cheaters and they really did.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
There were a lot of contradictions by the people in
the documentary, like Goodell, for example, I have the utmost
respect and admiration for Tom Brady, Yet I just called
him a cheater and a liar. That doesn't make sense
to me. And the and like you said, the way
the NFL treated this and everything, I think they got
off four game suspension is getting off easy compared to
(07:28):
how they framed this thing. You know, this was like
dragged on for two years.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That was surprised. It was surprising and surprise myself and.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Like not thinking forward and knowing what was coming and
just and then he got a four game suspension and
I was thinking of it.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Like that's it. That's all he got that. You know,
it's strange.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
So, Paul, do you think and I don't want to
put words into your mouth, but do you how do
you think it was handled when you ultimately saw it
as one who lived through it? How do you think
that the people who created this ultimately presented to.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
And presented as a joke. I thought, Tom, I'm current,
you know, when he starts off and he's he's got
that sort of tongue in cheek kind of look, you know,
and it's kind of a Tom Curran smirk. I like
to call it. I tease him about it.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
All the time.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
But you know, he starts off with a you know,
they were tipped off by Baltimore and the NFL was
looped in through an email like all this stuff, Like,
so what are you saying like they didn't do it,
like it was only because they had it out for
them or like, and then you sort of go through
it and Jackie mcmollin, as Red and Mike already talked
about this is a big nothing burger. I've always said
(08:33):
that the four game suspension to me seemed ludicrous. The
punishment was was was way too harsh. But I would
have liked to have gotten some answers from some of
the people involved as to exactly what happened. I'm sure
that they made efforts to try to get in touch
with like say McNally and just Stremski, but the principles
involved in this weren't talked about.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yet.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
We get to see David Portnoy at the at the
headquarters with that farce of a thing for Barstool.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I mean, this is going, you know, deeper than actually
a documentary went. But there's an old saying it's not
the crime, it's the cover up. And I think the
fact that Brady destroyed his cell phone and you know,
just wouldn't let it go. That made it worse.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
That was a clever That was a funny clip they
put together of Affleck with Bill Simmons, then Matt Damon,
I think with.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
You know, one of the Late Night Rich Island Rich Eyes,
and then Bill Bill Burr.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Was was very funny and that's exactly what Bill Burr says,
you get suspended because he wouldn't give him their phone,
you know. So I do think there was parts of
it that I thought they put together, Like you talked
about the montage early that I thought that sequence of
the Boston like that really encapsulated the Boston fan.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
These three guys, I'll tell you what was great and
just helps sort of put it in perspective a little bit.
Is we're all now saying I think that it was
kind of a joke, okay, and maybe that can be
said a little bit with time and in hindsight. I
thought the use of al Michaels and the clip that
they had from the jimbal Cash Show and where he's
(10:01):
talking about he goes, yeah, that was the lead story
on the newscast and I oh, by the way, in
other news.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You know, the government of just you know, like you
guys are getting.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
We're gonna lead with the flight end and he goes
in other news.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Right, But that was just a jarring switch to me
because I mean, look, this team was going to the
super Bowl. This is the integrity of the most popular
sport in the world that was going on. So you know, look,
it's you always operate from a sense that we're working
in sports and it's not you know, any of those
more serious things. But again, that that was just kind
of tonally. The tonal shift didn't really match up.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Whether I would have loved to have seen the same
thing happen but in week one and what would have
been the result.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Yeah, And I just say two, Fred, I thought you,
I thought you had a good line while we were
watching it.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
You said, so no interception, no deflake eight.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Is that what they're implying like if they had never
gotten their hands on a ball, would would be like darn,
you know, we have no way to prove it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And that all led to and and I thought it
was candled well like did I can't remember who the
person was that said it, but maybe it was Peter King.
Although we don't see him. This is the biggest game
of Tom Brady's life at that point in time. You know,
you had the Stephen A. Smith saying is for his legacy?
I never heard he's got to win the game. Wasn't
(11:15):
his legacy kind of in a decent spot at that point.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
In time, So like just out of curiosity. So let's
say he goes out there and he plays a football
game and Pete Carroll doesn't have an aneurysm with thirty
seconds left and he hands the ball to Marshawn Lynch.
That changes Tom Brady's.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Legacy right right.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
If Marshawn Lynch scores a touchdown at the two yard
line of the one yard wherever he was, Like, that's
an indictment on Brady. Now like the Stephen A. Smith drama,
And listen, that's Stephen A.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Smith. He's manly.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Who am I to said? He's made a career, a
very lucrative one out of doing exactly what he did.
I just I think sometimes we look these some of
these points come up on the on the episodes that
we've watched, and I sort of left to saying, was
it really like that?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Like was it real? Like did anybody really think that
Tom Brady was going to be considered a fraud if
they lost.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
That well, I know, but I think, to me, I
think that the documentary is doing a good job painting
a picture of what Brady's mindset might have been like
as we get to the end of the dynasty, beginning
with perhaps being thrown under the bus by his coach,
and then, you know, I don't want to get too
(12:22):
far ahead of ourselves with the other things that happened,
but all these things built up. You know, why am
I being questioned about to flay Kate? You know, like,
doesn't anyone believe me when I say I'm not lying?
You know, Like, and then they go back to you know,
you know, we'll see they do go back to Michigan
and show how he had to fight, you know, against
(12:43):
Drew Henson there, Like all these little things are adding
up in Tom Brady's mind that nobody believes in me. Really,
even at this point, I still have to fight for
whether it's how good I am or my name my word,
you know, and.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
The stuff that the documentary to have heard him say,
stuff like yeah, he didn't, you know, And that's and
I think at the time I was probably a little
bit like a la la la la, I don't want
to hear it.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
But watching it now with a little bit more perspective
and getting to hear Bill say, what, you know, what
you pointed out, you have to talk to kind of
the quarterback on that, and then seeing Brady kind of
squirm up there and not look well rehearsed that that
was I think it's maybe just the distance I've had
from it that context, it did seem like it jarred me.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
They do talk about it about the Mortensen report and
how that was debunked, but at the time of that
press conference, it was it was known by everyone or
believed by everyone, that eleven of the twelve balls were
drastically underway. That was still wasn't the case. So Belichick
went out there thinking that was fact, Brady went out
there thinking that was fact, and with no answers to.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
That, and there was no mention of the I believe
there was a second Bill press conference, wasn't there.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Where they said we went into experiment that kind of thing.
So no mention of that as well.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Again that and I goes back to my other point
of I think they really downplayed the Patriots pushback on
this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Well, right, they got into the but they didn't talk
about the Wells report in contact with me.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And so just as we pivot from episode seven to
episode eight, they win super Bowl forty nine and another
nerd moment for me and with a little bit of pride.
One of the great shots captured internally by this organization
is the shot behind Tom Brady scoreboard is in the
foreground and he's watching as oh, they're going into score
(14:32):
and Butler picks the ball off and our cameras behind
the bench are capturing him jumping up and down. And
you want to talk about, like, what's your choice there
is if you're a camera person, who are you going
to pick?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
The choose?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
And the choice was let's stay on Tom. I think
that shot paid off. Yeah, And I think that decision paid.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I think that's an iconic shot. It's an unbelievable last forever. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, I thought they did a pretty good job covering
that game.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
But I would just say overall, this episode felt a
little tedious to me and was kind of dragging, and
I just you know, I didn't really feel the Hernandez episode.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I watched it twice.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
It moved, I you know, felt invested consistently, and this one,
I think, you know, what I'm finding with this series,
what I most enjoy and that's what I most enjoyed
with generally, is the behind the scenes stuff, Bill talking
to the team, Tom talking to the team, the old footage.
Anytime there's any of that stuff, I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Highlights.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
We seen him a hundred times. But this episode to me,
a lot of deflake Gate really kind of drags.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
I'm with Mike. I thought the raw emotion that they
did capture, you know, and some of the stuff was
probably you guys too, you know, Matt, like you know,
and I know we've seen it. But Brady's interaction with
Malcolm Butler, you know, phenomenal, That's that's great, phenomenal, you know.
And then they have Butler and what does Butler say?
That meant as much to me as anything that happened
to saying that, like that's what Tom Brady's stature was
(15:48):
at the time, and.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Knowing and him talking about how he felt before the play,
like I just let up that pass even though.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Even I had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
But he felt like if we lose, this is gonna
be my fall and I'm not going to get another
chance to go in there, right, and then he gets
another chance.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So let's move on to episode eight, Okay, and right
out of the shoot, we're going to highlight the second
round draft pick in the twenty fourteen draft, Jimmy Garoppolo.
And so now you see where the story is starting
to go. I think Robert Kraft mentions the fact that
is told to him by Coach Belichick as they were
(16:25):
looking at the pick. We have to be ready to
move on the very famous Bill Belichick quote in the
press conference, Paul, everybody knows what Tom's contract status in ages.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
Yeah, and you know he talked about that right off
the go, and I thought Robert saying that he felt
like it was a statement from Bill Belichick. Yeah, the
drafting of Garoppolo in and of itself was a statement.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And we always ask what did you learn? And this
first time I've heard that. You know, in this Robert says,
Bill came to me and told me about his passes
over twenty yards and how he's deep, which some of.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
That stuff you've seen sprinkled into some of these stories
that are like the Seth Wickersham, right, but specifically the
long ball, you know, passes over twenty yards worse than
the league. You know, I think Bill in the press
conference also said that you'd rather be a year earlier
than year late at that position.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
That quote stood out to me, Paul, and I wrote
that one down, and you know which one was out.
Better to be early at that position than late.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And I couldn't help but think about twenty twenty and.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
You know where was that where we weren't ready at
all for when Tom Brady.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Left and again the drafting of Garoppolo. We're building what's
going on in Tom's mind? You know, he's more and
more thinking I don't have the support of my coach,
maybe not my team, but certainly not my coach. And
this is building. We're building to the to the split up.
I mean the break.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
They've been building that, I mean since the eight one
they started when I mean the quotes.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Where if you're not here, you're you know, out of mind.
And I think that ever since you get.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Through those first couple episodes, you've been planning nuggets all
the time of just how much Bill Belichick. You know
you're there when you're there, but once you're out, you're out.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, the only thing about eight is in the episode
they go to nine, and we talked about it on
this podcast before. But when Belichick's on the sideline with
Brady's I can't get this team to play, it's so
frustrated the fact that he's confiding in Brady with those
types of thoughts. Fred, he you know, he means that
they were still in pretty good terms at that point.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
And I think there are things that he does, even
in this one, that he's given Bill, you know, given
tom as flowers as the kids like to say, you know,
and but the bottom line is, yeah, you're saying these things,
but your actions are telling a different story. Yeah, but
you know you're drafting my replacement. You're telling that you
know it's better to be earlier than late. That's your mindset.
I think you're telling me that I'm still great, but
(18:53):
you're not showing me that.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
But I you know, this is just me. I don't
know this to be true, but I think no, Wait,
Brady was still with Belichick in terms of you know,
the honeymoon, all equal, you know, patriot way put the
team first. But I think Brady started to change, you know,
I don't know when when did he like he got Alex.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Well, but Alex is when That's why I think eight
is the start. If you were going to just do
a documentary on the rift between Bill Belichick and Tom Brady,
I think that would be good.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Because I think that was about the time when people
started getting in his ear Alex and Giselle. You know, Tom,
they don't respect you, Tom.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You know the Wes Welker quote right of your like
this little puppy, do you just keep coming? You keep
crawling back to him?
Speaker 5 (19:43):
That's speaking of like the West. Well, I thought Ala
is really that maybe the court of the series in
this whole in this whole episode, I thought he was
really insightful. That's the money quote, the one that everybody
saw in the trailer about you know, we played for Tom,
but we worked for Bill. The other way around.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
He worked for Bill, we worked for Bill, we played
for Tom.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
But I just thought that him illustrating the tension that
was building between Brady and Garoppolo as they're coming, you
know into that training camp in the suspension again, great
training camp stuff on the field.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I'll get back to you on like, what's the best
advice he's given to because he doesn't give it he
never gave him any it.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So you're watching and listening to the Dynasty New England
Patriots wrap up show, and we're talking about episode eight here,
Jimmy Garoppolo. I remember thinking about it after the fact.
I think we all talked about it. Garoppolo appears to
be a necessary kick in the tail for Tom Brady.
Tom took his candidacy seriously, and while he was certainly
(20:41):
not falling off a cliff, like Kellerman said, his performance
up to fourteen statistically at least was going down, so
there was some legitimacy there. The series decided to go
in the Garoppolo as a threat to Brady and compared
it to back in the University of Michigan days when
Tom was battling Drew Henson. Mike, what'd you think of
that comparison?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
It felt a little late to me.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
I mean, I think we kind of had already the
ship had kind of sailed on establishing who Tom Brady was,
what motivated Tom Brady, So to me, it felt a
little bit sideways on that initially, you know, going back
to Michigan seeing him there. I see why they made
the connection obviously with him going there during his suspension.
But to me, it's just felt like we kind of
know this stuff. We're already kind of passed, like the
prologue of it. Let's get to what we're doing now.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
In the programming note, as Mike talks about, you know,
the decisions being made, and we're all talking about some
of the decisions being made during the series. We'll be
fortunate enough in a coming episode to have the author
of the book, Jeff Benedict, and the director of the series,
Matt Hamicheck, to join us on a podcast. So we
invite you, the listeners and viewers you are going to question.
(21:45):
You want to ask these guys something about the series,
please email us at web radio at Patriots dot com.
If we like your email, we'll ask these guys what
it was.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Back to the Michigan thing, you thought it was a
little bit out of context, A little bit, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Think I would have. I would have liked to have
seen the Michigan thing earlier on in this I liked it.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
The more I think about it, I like it where
it was because you know, Garoppolo happens, and you know,
we're wondering, well, why should Brady care about Garoppolo? He
knows he's better than him, like he knows he's not
a threat, but it's just another thing that makes him upset.
(22:24):
And now we need to go back to Michigan to
see where did this maybe start, Like where did this
you know, hatred of anyone who might be a threat
to you start? And it's because it might be because
at Michigan he felt he was you know, not appreciated
and done dirty by Lloyd Carr with Drew Henson. And
(22:46):
I thought it the more I think about it, it
makes sense to go back and and you know, relive
his mindset throughout his career, like you know, like we
we and then we you know, we hear in the
first episode, you know, like how competitive he was just
playing Techmobile and just like every little thing you know,
just you know, he's ultra competitive and he's wired that way.
(23:10):
And it goes back to like maybe you know, it
might have started here.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It's a good point.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I mean, I do think it's a good point, a
good good cop that you make. And because I was
with Matt a little bit, I thought it was ill timed.
I would have I liked the anecdote, not necessarily that
Drew hens Henson part but his buddy, Jay Flannery, who
you know, we all sort of know when Boston from
you know, he's he's his buddy, and you know, he
tells that story about the media day and the line
that Drew Henson had behind him, you know, signing autographs,
(23:39):
and Brady's sort of looking and'.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Like you kidding me?
Speaker 5 (23:42):
This kid hasn't done a thing, right, I'm the starter,
I'm the captain. And what did Flannery call it? That
the Tom Brady death? And I got a good clip
at him stand on the sidelines. So I did like
that anecdote. I thought it would have been just as
valuable earlier in the in the episode. But Fred, you
make a compelling point because he's looking at it as
Jimmy Garoppolo, as Drew Henson. He hasn't done anything, and
(24:04):
he replaced me out to me, the big difference is, well,
now Brady's at the end. He's old, like I don't
think Belichick did I know, but he was. And Belichick
looked at it as a guy who was going to
be forty, and.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
He looked at the actuarial table and said this generally,
does this is the way it goes?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
News flash?
Speaker 5 (24:23):
Yes, he was going to be forty, he's thirty nine
years old or wherever he was at the time.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Yeah, Now Brady ended up outlasting yet. But it didn't
have to be treated like like Drew Henson had done
nothing right, Like I think Tom Brady had a right
to have a chip on his shoulder about Drew Henson.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
This I think is this is life.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Like no one can be the guy forever, and he
ended up being the guy for longer than anybody would
have predicted.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, So they move off of the Michigan Garoppolo comparison
to the Tom Brady Revenge Tour, which a really gets
us into the playoffs, but they plant the seeds of
still unsettled. The team's unsettled, and Matthew Slater is introduced
in this episode for the first time. And I think
Patriot fans and all of us have a perception and
(25:14):
a point of view about how Matthew Slater is. It
was eye opening to me to see some of the
things that he said in regards to how he thought
Tom was being treated that year. Mike, what did you think?
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Yeah, me too, I mean that's you know, we Matthew
Slater just retired, so We're really used to hearing Matthew
Slater like team representative, you know, never would never be
one to say some of those kind of things. So
I certainly thought it was interesting, and I mean, it
just highlighted to me the difficulty of Bill Belichick and
the way that he manages a team, which was treating everybody,
you know, that same and keeping everybody on the same level.
But you had Tom Brady who inescapably moved beyond that,
(25:48):
and it's just it's a really hard situation, I think,
to manage. That's to me what it highlighted, how hard
it was to manage a superstar who's awesome and you're
still kind of giving him, you know, pointing out all
the big problems on tape, and you know the teams
seeing that. But but the kid, Tom Brady is taking
it hard and you can feel the rising tension.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
But you know, Belichick has been nothing if not consistent,
over incredibly consistent. That's what he's always done. But Brady changed, you.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Know, and everyone's perspective of Brady.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Change, and I think that players did think that, you know,
Bill's taking a little bit more out on Brady than
the rest of us, just to make a point, and
he probably was. But for Brady that hurt.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
It hurt. And this isn't a referendum on who was
right and who was wrong. We're just sort of recapping
where it kind of went wrong. And I do think
that not only Slater, I thought Dante Stalworth, Wes Welker
again with the abused dog, when they were talking about
how hard Bill was on Tom. I thought all of
those guys had had some interesting comments and it was
(26:50):
interesting to hear just like how eye opening it was
to them, like treating Brady this way.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Muss they did.
Speaker 5 (26:59):
He did capitate to Cass came into that as well,
which you know, obviously stuff that had happened earlier, but
it just sort of spoke, and I do think that's
that's a difference. And that's why I think the chronology
of this is interesting to me, because by sixteen you
have quotes from Randy Moss, Dante Stalworth, and Wes Welker.
They were all gone right by then Slater was still there,
(27:22):
so that Slater may have been speaking in the present,
you know, with regard to sixteen, I'm not surprised to
hear that Bill Belichick was really tough on Tom Brady
in two thousand and seven when Randy Moss got here,
but he was still doing the same Johnny Foxborough stuff
in sixteen.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah. But here's the thing that we noticed, and if
we noticed, I'll bet you the players noticed. He wasn't
that way with Castle, and he wasn't that way in
the first three games with Garoppolo.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
Well, he definitely wasn't with Garoppolo. But Castle tells the
story about how he was like, you know, well, we
had to call your mother because you can't pick steals
the top gun line. You know, the defense departments Formio
that your son's dead because they were stupid, you know,
because he can't pick it up.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
In terms of the praise that he heaped on Castle
at the press conference, and you know that you could
see the joy after that first winning Arizona with Garoppolo
on the sideline by Belichick. I mean you know that
was personal for Belichick.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Yeah, it's two separate seeking out of Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And if we noticed it, these players are.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
The players noticed it noted it.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Tom wasn't there right.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
Because he wasn't allowed to be, not because he didn't
want to be.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
So they chose to use the locker room speech from
coach Belichick after the Houston Divisional game, And as we
talked about this before we were rolling, let's look at
that Houston Divisional game and look at it for what
it was. That was not an inspiring performance. That's the
Tomato Can Divisional round where they always used to just
mop the floor with the team. They didn't Astweilers started
for the Texans. If they had any kind of modicum
(28:58):
of quarterback play, that the different game than what happened
to be.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Paul.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
You looked up tom stats in that game and they
were pedestrian.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Two touchdowns, two picks, two hundred and eighty seven yards.
I think his passer rating was like sixty eight. Not
vintage Tom Brady. Certainly in the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
They played down to the competent, and so Fred talks
about the consistency of Bill Belichick. That locker room speech
to me embodied everything that Bill Belichick is all about. Congratulations,
we won the game. We're going to be playing the
ANC championship game. You see Devin mccordy going around, going
to the chip, We're going to the ship. Bill's point was,
if you play like this in the next round, it's
(29:35):
not going to be good enough. And I think that
that's consistent with the way that that message was delivered
throughout Yes, Mike.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Yes, And I mean I think to me it showed
the contrast between you know, the divisional rounds when they
were playing the Colts in the three or four you know,
those epic battles Steve McNair and you know what kind
of became known as the Tomato Cans and these games.
And I agree with what Fred said playing down to
the competition. I mean, I think this was another kind
of bigger point to just what how dominant this team was,
(30:04):
especially within the AFC AFC conference.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
So they get to the Super Bowl and they're taking
on Atlanta in that game, and there's been a lot
of talk that there hasn't been there fans haven't been
able to enjoy or relive some of the real highlights
that have been going on in the dynasty. I thought
in this particular game, this was the Tom Brady h
(30:28):
ceremony and to see the greatness and to hear from
people the Josh McDaniels, well, once we got to hear
you're just just a question where we gonna have enough
time on the clock. And I thought that was as
a person who's invested in seeing the Patriots win, this
was really good stuff to see.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Oh god, yeah it was.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
I would just say I think it's probably maybe a
question for the director of what a challenge it is.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
To show the highlights, because.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
We've seen all the highlights, we've kind of known it,
and you know, there are certain points that were missed
on you know, on this with you know, and I'm
not complaining about that, like you only have so much time.
We don't you know, necess sssarily need to see Julio
Jones catching the ball within field goal range and then
them you know, getting backed out fifteen yards. So it's
you know, maybe a question for him, a check of
just how do you balance you know, showing the game,
showing trying to tell the story of the game, but
(31:13):
not getting too bogged down and being like a sports center.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
And I don't think they tried to show the story
of the game. I think they tried to show the
story of Tom Brady.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, that's the real way to put it, absolutely, And.
Speaker 5 (31:22):
I think that's It's not a bad ye. It wasn't
a bad course to take.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
And to hear Brady talk about what he was thinking
after the pick six and you know, you like, how
many times have we seen Brady on an interception I'm
washed up? Yeah, half assed effort, not really trying. He
lunged to try to make a hit on that play
and it's a shot of him on his knees as
he's running by, going, oh my, you know we're down
(31:46):
by this much. I thought Brady was really insightful at that.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Point in time. Yeah, And I again, I think I
think the director, Matt did a really good job of
selecting what the quotes were, including that Brady quote, what
was on his mind. Now we're gonna lose the game,
they're gonna call me washed up?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You know it's me.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
And then you hear all the praise, you know, with
the comeback and including Poli and and all that stuff,
and he's getting the praise just not from the people
that he wants it from, like, not everybody. It's not
getting it from Bill.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
And I thought they did a great job first. You know,
you brought Puoli just real quick, fascinating if that's exactly
like you know, we've Matt and I have talked to Scott.
We had a great podcast with him. He's a great storyteller.
I just would wonder if did he really like twenty
eight to three, Scott, really you would that worried twenty
to three?
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, okay, but whatever, great moment. But it's a great line.
That's a great line.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Fred Freddy Kruger, Freddy Kruger comes to you in the dreams.
I'm like you should Jason Vorhees is the one that
you can't kill. Freddy Krueger is like nobody's asleep.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
He's on the dream side.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
All right, but he keeps coming back. Nerd, can you
just turn your nerd off of fire? He met the
he meant the guy at Halloween, right, who's that guy?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Michael Meyers? Michael another one? Yeah, yeah, they I'll do.
But anyway, metaphor, I didn't anticipate, I digress.
Speaker 5 (33:12):
And I have it. It's a little paraphrase here, but
there was a shot from a post game or postseason
after the comeback, and Belichick says Tom's performance was like
everybody else's in that it was related to everybody else,
and then he says, but Tom did some stuff, you know.
Then he sort of said, but credit to the team generally, right,
(33:34):
you know, like Tom's just like everybody else is one
of the team. He's relying on the other team all
the team. I'm sorry you just came back from twenty
eight to three down because your quarterback was balls perfect
for the last fifteen minutes of the game, when any
one of those mistakes could have been like like Atlanta,
any one of those plays had Atlanta made and the
game was over. Anyone that the Patriots didn't make would
(33:56):
have meant the game was over. And the best he
could do was kind of say, like everybody else, he
was reliant on everybody else. Yeah, And then he did say,
you know, like, but what he did, there's stuff that
no one else has ever done at that age, something
like that. But again, age age, that's it.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
There always has to be a qualified yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Well, and there's always seemingly a cliffhanger. Now, it wasn't
as dramatic as the drafting of Hernandez or the Spygate
cliffhangers that we've seen in this series so far, but Fred,
you mentioned it. It's pounding the thought.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Home about age.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And so we're now through eight episodes of this documentary
series with just two to go, and I think the
seeds have firmly been planted that age, and how is
this going to continue with this guy? Can?
Speaker 4 (34:44):
I don't think it's gonna I mean, I just to me,
I had a real quick, just an experience that I
had similar to when watching Super Bowl fifty one, which
when we saw Tom's mom on the sidelines and she
had her head wrapped up and all of a sudden,
you kind of realize that they're more going on here
than you really realized. And I thought the marriage I
(35:04):
thought the same way about this documentary, where you know,
that was another element that I think was really on
Tom Brady's mind. It was a big factor through all
of this that you know, I thought maybe could have
been highlighted as well.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Okay, so nice job everybody. Hence concludes the Dynasty wrap
up show for episodes seven and eight. We'll see you
where they wrap up this documentary series later on.
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