March 15, 2024 • 23 mins
Matt Smith hosts a roundtable with Fred Kirsch, Paul Perillo and Mike Dussault breaking down episodes nine and ten of Apple TV Plus's exclusive 10-part documentary event, The Dynasty: New England Patriots. Episodes nine and ten touch on Bill Belichick’s defensive performance in Super Bowl LIII, the benching of CB Malcolm Butler in SB LII, Tom Brady's departure from the Patriots and looking back at the success and working relationship Coach Belichick and Tom Brady had over the years.. The 10-part documentary event, 'The Dynasty: New England Patriots' is streaming now, exclusively on Apple TV Plus.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Some of the content in this podcast may not be
suitable for all audiences.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
It's time now for another episode of The Dynasty wrap
up show. Matt Smith alongside with Mike Usoa Paul Brillow.
The ten part documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots
is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus. Series is over,
Guys nine and ten is over. Paul off the ear,
you made a comment, Mike, I think you might have
(00:28):
made it too. You really liked these two episodes, Paul,
tell me why.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah. I thought it was a good finish. I thought
it started strong the series, and I think it ended strong.
I mean, there's obviously things that we're going to talk about,
you know, the next half hour, so that you know,
some some quibbles and problems with things they included. But
I thought that they did a good job of illustrating
what had become an untenable divide between Bill Belichick, Tom
(00:54):
Brady with Robert Kraft sort of trying to mediate from
the outside with some of that stuff new to.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
You, sure, I mean that was what made it good
for me, And I think there was so much speculation
during that time, a lot of it between the fans
and the media and what's really going on, and some
people don't want to believe, you know, that there's anything
going on. And I think that these episodes and not
only shine a light that there were things going on
and from the people themselves, but they also in landed
(01:22):
the plane. They also brought it all back together for
me in a way that said, you know what, it
wasn't perfect. It was definitely bumpy at the end, and
there were you know, people that were not as quite
as happy with each other as they once were. But
in the end it all worked. This is the Dynasty
still and you still kind of I still left with
a good feeling. I got chills down the end of
that second episode, episode ten. So I thought they really
did a good job, especially just shining a light on
(01:44):
really kind of a mysterious period of the end of
the Patriots.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Dynis Mike probably touches on something that you know, you
at like, you know, what do you like about those
last two episodes while we and it probably is a
selfish thing because I remember doing shows. We were doing
shows right here, you know, talking about in sort of
you know, reacting to various reports that were coming out
seth Wickersham things and one after not we just got
(02:07):
beaten up. Why are you listening to these reports? What
do you know? You know whose talks like that? What
you're just making it up? Now, this is not reality.
And what these two episodes and really the whole documentary
series showed was that they weren't making it up. There
was issues. They held it together. It's amazing they held
it together as long as they did, but they were
(02:29):
issues at the end that were causing it to be
sort of untenable and coming to an inevitable end.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
So let's quibble. Starting with episode nine, and I've used
this line before. Who had Fife and Drum and Trump
to kick off episode nine on their bingo card?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I thought that was a really interesting way to open
it up. And I think, you know, you assumed that
there was tension there with the team and obviously everything
that was going on. I always kind of felt like
I knew that Bill Belichick and Donald Trump had relationship prior,
and I always kind of felt like Donald Trump threw
Bill Belichick under the bus by reading a personal letter
out loud and probably never something that Bill Belichick wanted
(03:08):
getting out, knowing how private he was. But I also
thought they kind of glossed over Brady having the MAGA
hat and his thing as well, so you know, there
was him being on the sideline as a guest of craft, right,
and that they didn't mention it though, and they mentioned it,
but they didn't say that detail though, did they. They
didn't point that out about Brady. They said the three,
but they didn't say anything out Brady. So that that
was what stood out to me. And again that's a
(03:29):
relationship that went back before Donald Trump became a political
figure and mailed him a hat and it didn't mean
what it means now, and Brady had in his locker,
So I don't, you know, necessarily think that those things
were meant to be over signs of support for the
policies of Donald Trump. But they kind of got caught
in that whole situation and caught up in.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And I thought, you know, mccordy and Slater were good
on that topic. I think Slater said something to the
effect of he didn't think that that Belichick at the
time was maybe connected enough to the players, And I
thought that was a strong comment. The same time, I
do step back and I look at it just the
way you just said, Mike, with the you know, the
Trump thing was you know, I don't really think the
(04:07):
Trump thing was a huge part of this divide. I mean,
I know, on the surface it looks that way. At
the time, my mind's eye didn't tell me that that
was a big part of the issues between coach and player.
It was kind of a thing that got really heated
at the time league wide, you know, and then you know,
Trump coming out and then you know, saying these guys
(04:27):
should be fired and things like that. Trump sort of
was at the firestorm of that more so that I
thought than the Patriots individual, right, I'm not here to.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Defend Bill and Bill's taking some shots of this. I
actually thought Bill's response with regards to the question about
Trump made a lot of sense. Yeah, you know, I've
heard Robert Craft say the same thing. They were friends first. Obviously,
his presence in the political arena has blown up as
(04:59):
to what people think of him and everything like that.
But at the end of the day, Bill Belichick was
friendly with Donald Trump, as was Robert Kraft with Donald Trump.
They didn't look at him as a Republican nominee or
the president of the United States and then when he
becomes that he probably used things to his advantage. That
probably did Bill and Robert and Tom to that for
that matter, with the hat a disservice.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So I and I would just say, like, you know,
you asked, you know what our squabbles are, you know
what of our problems, quibbles whatever, Okay, So I would
just say, you do a good job of sort of
presenting the landscape. At the time, they show that sort
of powerful moment with all the players. I think it
was the Houston game where they're all taken a knee
and that was a huge I'm not disminishing it was
(05:41):
a huge thing at the time. What was the what
do you what do you remember about the Patriots sort
of emerging from that? I remember Bill Belichick having a
huge meet and the players talked about this at the time.
They had a meeting and they got to the bottom
of it and they figured out what they were going
to do as a team. Correct. I thought Bill Belichick
(06:02):
showed incredible leadership at the time. And I remember thinking
that at the time, it's a very difficult landscape to navigate,
you know, sixty something year old white guy trying to
deal with a powder keg here, and I thought he
definitely handled it. We didn't get any of that. We
didn't get any of that here. I would have liked
to have heard mccordy and Slatter talk about the aftermath
(06:25):
and how they moved on from that. We didn't get it. Mike.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I want to ask you a question. I thought, as
we move off of the politics in Trump to this
episode really sort of crystallizes where the Belichick Brady relationship
started to go south. And I thought Tom Curran really
did a nice job of providing insight. I think we
all remember that Tom Curran was as part of Camp
(06:51):
Brady and he had he was reporting that down the stretch,
and I think he lended a very credible was a
credible source in this to kind of detail how things
had just changed. As his sister said, Tom had changed.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean I thought, you know, Tom was great
throughout the series. I mean just you know, he's always
entertaining to listen to. But you know, I think what
I kind of came out wondering was how did they
keep it together past this seventeen season? Like, I think
that was what I was most surprised about, was just
how everything seemed to really be coming to a powder
keg that season, and that in my mind again, it's
(07:27):
like you kind of extract yourself from the viewing experience
and then you remind yourself they won the Super Bowl
the next year, and it seemed like things were as
bad as it could possibly be at that point. Certainly,
the introduction of Alex Guerrero kind of made chuckle, and
he was, you know, kind of a device to illustrate
some of Tom's evolution of what he needed for himself
to succeed. And you kind of understand Bill's point of
(07:51):
view as well on that, and you know, a little
bit of a quibble, I would say, and I think
that they landed like again, not to say land the
plane again, but I think that they came out at
the end.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
A little bit better with this.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
But I just think Bill Belichick was a little bit
more of a three D complicated person then.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
They could have.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I think they could have hit that a tiny bit
better in this series of you know, there are moments
when he turns the charm on. There are moments when
you're like, this guy's cracking me up and I'm enjoying him.
I didn't see enough of that quite and I felt
like they kind of because of Bill's you know, kind
of press conference bill that he presented in this it
was all kind of left to Ernie Adams to give
you the only kind of real infilm.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, A good point, and I do think this episode,
episode nine, I do think gave a good illustration of
just how serious that the the sort of separation had become.
You know, Robert Craft is saying that, you know, he
felt that the you know, the tension with Bill, specifically
among Bill and Tom, and that I think Robert and
(08:46):
Alex Guerrero, you know, talking about how Bill had started
to sort of separate from that team first mentality that
he had always so famously had, and you know, and
as it goes through that, you know, you sort of
get to Okay, So now they're starting to work with Alex,
and now it's not just Tom, it's the receivers. And
it's not just Tom and the receivers, now it's Gronk.
And then they tell that story about sort of Belichick
(09:10):
lighting up Gronk about being too weak, that's why you're
getting thrown around on the field. And I thought as
much as there was sort of the anti Bill with
some of the players. I thought Amandola who came in
who had some incendiary things to say about Bill. He said,
you know, I can totally understand why you can't have
two trainers. You can't have different, you know, outside sources.
(09:32):
And this is a guy who was doing the TV
twelve stuff. A Mondola was tight with Edelman and Brady
and doing the band work, but he understood why it
angered Belichick. And I thought that offered at least some
semblance of balance.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
And I thought Ernie helped hammer that point home too,
like you've got a whole strength and conditioning staff, you've
got a training staff for the team. You can't have
one guy go, you know, or twelve guys go run
off and do their own thing.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I really found Brady to be a sympathetic figure. And
I mean not that I didn't beforehand, but I think,
you know, just the way that he talked about the
difference that Alex Guerrero made for his body, It's like,
how can you argue with this?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
You know?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And that was kind of the point they made in
the documentary as well. But to hear Brady explicitly say,
my elbow has heard me since high school and now
I don't have pain anymore? What like, what else do
you want to ask? And I think that kind of
illustrated the bare point of the series, which was that
it worked really well early on when Bill was a
task master and he was over Brady and he'd never
give him the credit, and it helped Brady ascend to
(10:31):
great heights. But later on, when he continued to kind
of take that approach with him, it started to push
Brady away. And I you know, you wonder could Bill
have done something different. It doesn't seem like in his
DNA to adjust his coaching that way.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I agree with you on the DNA part, but I
also want to go back to something that you said
off the air a little bit, and it was about
what Nancy said that Tom had changed right the video
in Tokyo. I mean, this was a This was not
the guy that we saw Pisode one with Dave NuGen.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Bigger than why doing.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Playing technobol okay, this was Capital T Tom, Capital B. Brady,
who is now one of the biggest stars in the planet.
And I think Tom Brady realized that. And why am
I being treated like the other fifty two guys here?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I'm Tom F and Brady. He didn't say that. I'm
saying that, you know, but I think we have to
realize that he changed as well.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
And that's why I think what Mike said makes a
lot of sense. I think everybody acknowledges Nancy Brady, you know,
included that Tom had changed. Why couldn't Why couldn't Bill? Yeah,
you know, like Bill had to sort of remain like, No,
he didn't have to. We should have been able to.
It's part of listen, the guy is the greatest to
ever do what he has done right. Six titles speaks
(11:45):
for itself. But the best examples of coaching and leadership
are being able to adapt and adjust to your various
personnel and your various personalities. And I think in this
particular case, for whatever reason, he felt it was really
important to continue to treat him like Johnny Foxborough, like
you always had, and.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
To continue to treat, you know, to at least outwardly
what he says he's doing what's best for the team.
Came one of the seminal moments in the entire dynasty,
and that's a benching of Malcolm Butler. I think there
was some pre release chatter that you were going to
find out definitively, We the viewer, we the fans are
going to find out definitively why he sat Paul, it
(12:24):
didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You don't. You don't find that out. And there was
I wasn't surprised to hear nothing from Bill on the topic.
I wasn't surprised to hear nothing from Malcolm Butler on
the topic. And you didn't. Okay, what I was really
jarred by was I think the genuine nature that came
across when, like Devin mccordy has asked, he, I mean,
(12:46):
if he's lying, if he's covering up for something he
belongs on Broadway, I mean that performance he definitively tells you.
I have absolutely no idea why he didn't play, And
I don't know how anyone could watch that and not
believe them.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
No, And that's the issue, right, that's you know, what
the whole thing was. And you know, for Robert to
come out and say I was told it was something
personal and then to you know.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Just draw that parallel of talk about.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Doing things that are right for the team and if
this was personal, this felt outside of that realm and
it felt more that that relationship was continue to, you know,
to get more and more friction built around it, and
that you know, seems like a huge thing. Then leading
into the next Super Bowl, where I think Robert said
I'm going to have my eye on him for super
Bowl fifty.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Three, which I thought was very strong words that I
don't think most people knew. I'm gonna have my eyes
on him. He tagged basically the lots and put that
on Coach Belichick. And so now you're going from seventeen
to eighteen. You know, you not in the series, but
you scrambled to keep Josh. You needed Josh McDaniels. Thank
God for the Patriots that he came back and left Indianapolis.
(13:57):
At the altar, there's a tremendous amount of tension heading
into this, and I think they made a point to say,
with everything going on, Robert Kraft, did that Bill maybe
convinced him that year that you could still win with
way that I think we all think that Bill likes
to win what with which is good defense, don't turn
(14:18):
the ball over. You can win that way, And they
rode that formula basically to winning that Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
You're talking about eighteen now, yeah, yeah, I mean, just
real quick before that, I thought, you know, as you
led up to the seventeen super Bowl, you know, I
thought Robert definitively telling us that he told Bill, We're
not trading Tom Brady ever, right, So that leads to
the Garoppolo deal. In my mind, I think, you know,
it's it's left unsaid in the documentary, but I think,
(14:44):
you know, there was sort of a feeling that he
was kind of grieving a little bit without Garoppolo. I
think someone put it that way. And then, you know,
when you get down to the aftermath of the lost
super Bowl against Philly, and like I said, the players
and like I still I believe, like I belie that
Devin mccorty has no idea why Malcolm Butler didn't play.
I believe that, you know, Amidola saying, you know, as players,
(15:06):
we felt cheated a little bit. And then I thought,
Matt your point that Roberts said basically he was unnotice.
He was put on notice going into that eighteen season. Ultimately,
I think for the long term of the Patriots, it
was unfortunate the way the super Bowl game unfolded, Like
(15:27):
they scored forty points you know, in the playoff games
to get to the super Bowl. But the Super Bowl
itself they won thirteen to three. And what matt said
I think got validated is I think Robert looked at
it and says, well, he can still win his way.
I look back at it and said, well, they won
one game that way in the last five years, would
tell me that's not the way to try to win.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Mike, were you surprised to the extent of which Brady
admitted in Matthew Slater admitted that there wasn't a lot
of conversation going on between the head coach and the quarterback.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
No, and that was I think, you know, one of
the strengths of this, like I said, was really the
spotlight being put on this relationship and how much it
was devolving. You know, It's it's funny because I tend
to look at things just generally through the football lens,
and we never thought that the twenty eighteen twenty eighteen
team was that great, And even now it's like, how
did they pull this all together? And you could see
(16:18):
like the joylessness and you know, the highlights that they
were showing of touchdown nobody's really celebrating. And I'm thinking
back to the nine documentary of you know, Bill put
putting up video of guys making big plays and nobody
really celebrating, and here it is, and you know, usually
I feel like that's a death sentence for a team.
This isn't a team that has championship caliber, but they
(16:39):
were somehow, and it's just it shigned a whole new
light for me on that Super Bowl win, both from
how did they how were they able to pull up
probably you know, just to credit to Tom Brady and
you know, the Gronk and then the big plays that
were made, but also just how how are they able
to all work together and make that still happen?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Did you see joy in the aftermath of the AFC
Championship game against in the City Shure, That's the only
game that showed by the way, the eighteen season was the.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
ACT champions and that is the only game that I
thought that they showed genuine joy, you know, obviously until
the Super Bowl. Yeah, I did. But I also thought
it was really interesting the way they said, like we
leave off nine with Robert Kraft putting Bill on notice.
You opened ten with Bill understanding that and Bill making
some concessions, you know. Alex Guerrero was back, he was
(17:25):
allowed back in the facility and whatnot, and some of
those things that happened but really stood out to me.
And you mentioned this off air too, matt was Bill
and Tom were almost like not speaking, and it had
become Matthew Slater's job to sort of.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Didn't want it.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
He didn't want it.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Mike didn't sound like he wanted it.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And that to me was we're so used to We're
just you know, Matthew Slater just retired, but he has
been the spokesperson for this team for so long and
keeping everybody in line. And to hear him kind of
going to that side of the fence and really opening
up about what was going going on, it was it
was jarring to me.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
It really was.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You've never heard Matthew Slater kind of be critical of
Bill Belichick of what was going on in the locker room.
He's always trying to bring people together and keep it rolling.
So to me, some of those moments from Slater were
the standout moments of the series.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Paul, I'm not surprised to hear Rob Gronkowski being critical.
I'm not surprised to hear Danny m and Doola being critical.
I think we knew that that was, you know, that
really aid at them. I was surprised the first time
I heard the Matthew Slater comments to hear from such
a respected guy who retired just a second ago. You know,
so he was still here when this was going on again,
(18:35):
some of these things making you know, what if Bill
was still the coach. I thought they were very honest.
But I will give me credit for this. He said
what he said, but he always came back and he
closed it by saying, we trust our you know, don't
know why Malcolm didn't play in the super.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Bowl, but we trust, we trust our coach, and.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We ultimately trust our coach. And I think that that's
what he believes, an old school.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Guy, and I think ultimately that's what allowed it probably
just stay together. Was they will like questioning everything at
this point, but at the same time, the guy had
won five titles, so you still had that baseline trust.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I think one of the I would put him up
for a Best Supporting Actor nominee for a documentary mini series.
I thought Pioli was tremendous at the end to sort
of summarize is it Tom's who gets credit? Is it
Bill who gets credit. I thought that he was terrific
when he was kind of upset and found it disrespectful
(19:30):
Mike to choose sides.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of along the lines of
Ernie Adams. Ernie Adams delivered it in his kind of
own way. But I think Scott Pioli is, you know,
somebody who was on the inside got out. He's in
media now, he's well spoken, he's you know, had a
chance to kind of evaluate this whole period, and so
I think he's a he's you know, he's the spokesperson
that you kind of hope Bill would be, you know,
where you're upfront and just kind of, you know, this
(19:54):
is how it was. Maybe Bill will get there someday.
But yeah, he was a great addition. And I mean
I've talked to him a couple of times. I always
of his perspective.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Now on the win, he was really good. I was
a little disappointed. I want I wanted an answer, Yeah,
I wanted an answer.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Were you surprised at how emotional on camera? Tom Brady
wasn't talking about it with a couple of specifics here
calling Bill to tell him that it's time to go.
I didn't expect him to like gun the double clutch
at that point in time, that one, that one hit me,
you know, and his overall as he's trying to summarize it,
(20:29):
I know, Tom's an emotional guy, and where's his emotions
on his sleeves. I was surprised to the extent of
how emotional he was.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, I was. I mean, that's that's him. Yeah, that's him.
I wasn't overly surprised by that. I think he's a
very it's a guy who got emotional in the draft,
you know, like he's just been uh, he's Yeah, I
think that. I think Nancy may have said it at
some point during the series about you know, a sensitive
He's always been a little bit of a sensitive guy.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Again, to go back how much I felt connecting with
Tom Brady and I mean, in my notes, I just
wrote down Tom deserved that seventh super Bowl, you know,
and it's how can you watch Gronk and Tom and
realize these guys are at the height of their craft,
They're already being praised as the greatest players of all time.
They just wanted to win and have fun and not
come into this place and feel stressed out of their mind.
And you know, so it it. You know, this this episode,
(21:16):
I mean it really it's hard to say. I can't
believe I'm saying it, but it really cast a new
light for me on a number of different things, from
the super Bowl fifty three win to the twenty nineteen
season and how miserable Tom seemed through that where it
really seemed like it was going down to Tom winning
that super Bowl and kind of just getting the you know,
not I don't know what justification is the right word,
but you know, just finally getting to get that win
(21:37):
on his own and to feel like I really did
this one myself.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That you're a phrase about landing the plane is like
it's to me, it's it's Tom. You know, I'm proud
of our journey. And that's when he got emotional. It
was perfect and it doesn't need to be anything more
than that. You know, he did that got me and
then and then Bill he probably it was probably the
right thing. It was probably the right move.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Brutally honest, I thought, you.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Know, sort of as much as Builder, because Bill's not
an emotional guy. Bill's not like Tom in that regard.
Bill's very calculated. Not doesn't mean one's right the other's wrong.
But for him to sit back and say, yeah, this
is pretty good. I'm paraphrasing, this is pretty what we
did is special, and he acknowledged that, like sort of
(22:22):
looked back on it again. To your point, he was
still the coach at the time. It had to be
a sort of a conflicting sort of emotions and mentality
for him. But yeah, I thought it was a really
nice way to sort of the last ten minutes. I
thought it was really good, perfect, it was you know,
it's just you.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You brought it all home and said, look, it was
dramatic and there were things going on that we still
maybe would like to know more about.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
But at the end of the day, this is a.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Ten part documentary about a football team that played twenty seasons.
And you know, I also came away, as you know,
my fan side, I have three games to glory. I
have America's game, I have to do your jobs. I
have all all that behind the scenes, just talking football
for a fan that I want. But if you're going
to see the whole picture, I think you need to
watch this.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
So this is a Dynasty wrap up show that you're
watching and listening to here and as a reminder, the
ten part documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots is
streaming now exclusively on Apple tv Plus. So for us,
that's our wrap up of this series, but there's one
more pod to do and we will talk with the director,
Matt Hamichek, who has some very definitive opinions that Mike
(23:29):
sort of alluded to on what went into his mentality
of making this, as well as the author of the
book The Dynasty, Jeff Benedict, who's also one of the
executive producers. So stay tuned for that podcast coming up
a little
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Bit later on
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Speaker 2 (00:04):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
It's time now for another episode of The Dynasty wrap
up show. Matt Smith alongside with Mike Usoa Paul Brillow.
The ten part documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots
is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus. Series is over,
Guys nine and ten is over. Paul off the ear,
you made a comment, Mike, I think you might have
(00:28):
made it too. You really liked these two episodes, Paul,
tell me why.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah. I thought it was a good finish. I thought
it started strong the series, and I think it ended strong.
I mean, there's obviously things that we're going to talk about,
you know, the next half hour, so that you know,
some some quibbles and problems with things they included. But
I thought that they did a good job of illustrating
what had become an untenable divide between Bill Belichick, Tom
(00:54):
Brady with Robert Kraft sort of trying to mediate from
the outside with some of that stuff new to.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
You, sure, I mean that was what made it good
for me, And I think there was so much speculation
during that time, a lot of it between the fans
and the media and what's really going on, and some
people don't want to believe, you know, that there's anything
going on. And I think that these episodes and not
only shine a light that there were things going on
and from the people themselves, but they also in landed
(01:22):
the plane. They also brought it all back together for
me in a way that said, you know what, it
wasn't perfect. It was definitely bumpy at the end, and
there were you know, people that were not as quite
as happy with each other as they once were. But
in the end it all worked. This is the Dynasty
still and you still kind of I still left with
a good feeling. I got chills down the end of
that second episode, episode ten. So I thought they really
did a good job, especially just shining a light on
(01:44):
really kind of a mysterious period of the end of
the Patriots.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Dynis Mike probably touches on something that you know, you
at like, you know, what do you like about those
last two episodes while we and it probably is a
selfish thing because I remember doing shows. We were doing
shows right here, you know, talking about in sort of
you know, reacting to various reports that were coming out
seth Wickersham things and one after not we just got
(02:07):
beaten up. Why are you listening to these reports? What
do you know? You know whose talks like that? What
you're just making it up? Now, this is not reality.
And what these two episodes and really the whole documentary
series showed was that they weren't making it up. There
was issues. They held it together. It's amazing they held
it together as long as they did, but they were
(02:29):
issues at the end that were causing it to be
sort of untenable and coming to an inevitable end.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
So let's quibble. Starting with episode nine, and I've used
this line before. Who had Fife and Drum and Trump
to kick off episode nine on their bingo card?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I thought that was a really interesting way to open
it up. And I think, you know, you assumed that
there was tension there with the team and obviously everything
that was going on. I always kind of felt like
I knew that Bill Belichick and Donald Trump had relationship prior,
and I always kind of felt like Donald Trump threw
Bill Belichick under the bus by reading a personal letter
out loud and probably never something that Bill Belichick wanted
(03:08):
getting out, knowing how private he was. But I also
thought they kind of glossed over Brady having the MAGA
hat and his thing as well, so you know, there
was him being on the sideline as a guest of craft, right,
and that they didn't mention it though, and they mentioned it,
but they didn't say that detail though, did they. They
didn't point that out about Brady. They said the three,
but they didn't say anything out Brady. So that that
was what stood out to me. And again that's a
(03:29):
relationship that went back before Donald Trump became a political
figure and mailed him a hat and it didn't mean
what it means now, and Brady had in his locker,
So I don't, you know, necessarily think that those things
were meant to be over signs of support for the
policies of Donald Trump. But they kind of got caught
in that whole situation and caught up in.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And I thought, you know, mccordy and Slater were good
on that topic. I think Slater said something to the
effect of he didn't think that that Belichick at the
time was maybe connected enough to the players, And I
thought that was a strong comment. The same time, I
do step back and I look at it just the
way you just said, Mike, with the you know, the
Trump thing was you know, I don't really think the
(04:07):
Trump thing was a huge part of this divide. I mean,
I know, on the surface it looks that way. At
the time, my mind's eye didn't tell me that that
was a big part of the issues between coach and player.
It was kind of a thing that got really heated
at the time league wide, you know, and then you know,
Trump coming out and then you know, saying these guys
(04:27):
should be fired and things like that. Trump sort of
was at the firestorm of that more so that I
thought than the Patriots individual, right, I'm not here to.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Defend Bill and Bill's taking some shots of this. I
actually thought Bill's response with regards to the question about
Trump made a lot of sense. Yeah, you know, I've
heard Robert Craft say the same thing. They were friends first. Obviously,
his presence in the political arena has blown up as
(04:59):
to what people think of him and everything like that.
But at the end of the day, Bill Belichick was
friendly with Donald Trump, as was Robert Kraft with Donald Trump.
They didn't look at him as a Republican nominee or
the president of the United States and then when he
becomes that he probably used things to his advantage. That
probably did Bill and Robert and Tom to that for
that matter, with the hat a disservice.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So I and I would just say, like, you know,
you asked, you know what our squabbles are, you know
what of our problems, quibbles whatever, Okay, So I would
just say, you do a good job of sort of
presenting the landscape. At the time, they show that sort
of powerful moment with all the players. I think it
was the Houston game where they're all taken a knee
and that was a huge I'm not disminishing it was
(05:41):
a huge thing at the time. What was the what
do you what do you remember about the Patriots sort
of emerging from that? I remember Bill Belichick having a
huge meet and the players talked about this at the time.
They had a meeting and they got to the bottom
of it and they figured out what they were going
to do as a team. Correct. I thought Bill Belichick
(06:02):
showed incredible leadership at the time. And I remember thinking
that at the time, it's a very difficult landscape to navigate,
you know, sixty something year old white guy trying to
deal with a powder keg here, and I thought he
definitely handled it. We didn't get any of that. We
didn't get any of that here. I would have liked
to have heard mccordy and Slatter talk about the aftermath
(06:25):
and how they moved on from that. We didn't get it. Mike.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I want to ask you a question. I thought, as
we move off of the politics in Trump to this
episode really sort of crystallizes where the Belichick Brady relationship
started to go south. And I thought Tom Curran really
did a nice job of providing insight. I think we
all remember that Tom Curran was as part of Camp
(06:51):
Brady and he had he was reporting that down the stretch,
and I think he lended a very credible was a
credible source in this to kind of detail how things
had just changed. As his sister said, Tom had changed.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean I thought, you know, Tom was great
throughout the series. I mean just you know, he's always
entertaining to listen to. But you know, I think what
I kind of came out wondering was how did they
keep it together past this seventeen season? Like, I think
that was what I was most surprised about, was just
how everything seemed to really be coming to a powder
keg that season, and that in my mind again, it's
(07:27):
like you kind of extract yourself from the viewing experience
and then you remind yourself they won the Super Bowl
the next year, and it seemed like things were as
bad as it could possibly be at that point. Certainly,
the introduction of Alex Guerrero kind of made chuckle, and
he was, you know, kind of a device to illustrate
some of Tom's evolution of what he needed for himself
to succeed. And you kind of understand Bill's point of
(07:51):
view as well on that, and you know, a little
bit of a quibble, I would say, and I think
that they landed like again, not to say land the
plane again, but I think that they came out at
the end.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
A little bit better with this.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
But I just think Bill Belichick was a little bit
more of a three D complicated person then.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
They could have.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I think they could have hit that a tiny bit
better in this series of you know, there are moments
when he turns the charm on. There are moments when
you're like, this guy's cracking me up and I'm enjoying him.
I didn't see enough of that quite and I felt
like they kind of because of Bill's you know, kind
of press conference bill that he presented in this it
was all kind of left to Ernie Adams to give
you the only kind of real infilm.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, A good point, and I do think this episode,
episode nine, I do think gave a good illustration of
just how serious that the the sort of separation had become.
You know, Robert Craft is saying that, you know, he
felt that the you know, the tension with Bill, specifically
among Bill and Tom, and that I think Robert and
(08:46):
Alex Guerrero, you know, talking about how Bill had started
to sort of separate from that team first mentality that
he had always so famously had, and you know, and
as it goes through that, you know, you sort of
get to Okay, So now they're starting to work with Alex,
and now it's not just Tom, it's the receivers. And
it's not just Tom and the receivers, now it's Gronk.
And then they tell that story about sort of Belichick
(09:10):
lighting up Gronk about being too weak, that's why you're
getting thrown around on the field. And I thought as
much as there was sort of the anti Bill with
some of the players. I thought Amandola who came in
who had some incendiary things to say about Bill. He said,
you know, I can totally understand why you can't have
two trainers. You can't have different, you know, outside sources.
(09:32):
And this is a guy who was doing the TV
twelve stuff. A Mondola was tight with Edelman and Brady
and doing the band work, but he understood why it
angered Belichick. And I thought that offered at least some
semblance of balance.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
And I thought Ernie helped hammer that point home too,
like you've got a whole strength and conditioning staff, you've
got a training staff for the team. You can't have
one guy go, you know, or twelve guys go run
off and do their own thing.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I really found Brady to be a sympathetic figure. And
I mean not that I didn't beforehand, but I think,
you know, just the way that he talked about the
difference that Alex Guerrero made for his body, It's like,
how can you argue with this?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
You know?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And that was kind of the point they made in
the documentary as well. But to hear Brady explicitly say,
my elbow has heard me since high school and now
I don't have pain anymore? What like, what else do
you want to ask? And I think that kind of
illustrated the bare point of the series, which was that
it worked really well early on when Bill was a
task master and he was over Brady and he'd never
give him the credit, and it helped Brady ascend to
(10:31):
great heights. But later on, when he continued to kind
of take that approach with him, it started to push
Brady away. And I you know, you wonder could Bill
have done something different. It doesn't seem like in his
DNA to adjust his coaching that way.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I agree with you on the DNA part, but I
also want to go back to something that you said
off the air a little bit, and it was about
what Nancy said that Tom had changed right the video
in Tokyo. I mean, this was a This was not
the guy that we saw Pisode one with Dave NuGen.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Bigger than why doing.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Playing technobol okay, this was Capital T Tom, Capital B. Brady,
who is now one of the biggest stars in the planet.
And I think Tom Brady realized that. And why am
I being treated like the other fifty two guys here?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I'm Tom F and Brady. He didn't say that. I'm
saying that, you know, but I think we have to
realize that he changed as well.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
And that's why I think what Mike said makes a
lot of sense. I think everybody acknowledges Nancy Brady, you know,
included that Tom had changed. Why couldn't Why couldn't Bill? Yeah,
you know, like Bill had to sort of remain like, No,
he didn't have to. We should have been able to.
It's part of listen, the guy is the greatest to
ever do what he has done right. Six titles speaks
(11:45):
for itself. But the best examples of coaching and leadership
are being able to adapt and adjust to your various
personnel and your various personalities. And I think in this
particular case, for whatever reason, he felt it was really
important to continue to treat him like Johnny Foxborough, like
you always had, and.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
To continue to treat, you know, to at least outwardly
what he says he's doing what's best for the team.
Came one of the seminal moments in the entire dynasty,
and that's a benching of Malcolm Butler. I think there
was some pre release chatter that you were going to
find out definitively, We the viewer, we the fans are
going to find out definitively why he sat Paul, it
(12:24):
didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You don't. You don't find that out. And there was
I wasn't surprised to hear nothing from Bill on the topic.
I wasn't surprised to hear nothing from Malcolm Butler on
the topic. And you didn't. Okay, what I was really
jarred by was I think the genuine nature that came
across when, like Devin mccordy has asked, he, I mean,
(12:46):
if he's lying, if he's covering up for something he
belongs on Broadway, I mean that performance he definitively tells you.
I have absolutely no idea why he didn't play, And
I don't know how anyone could watch that and not
believe them.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
No, And that's the issue, right, that's you know, what
the whole thing was. And you know, for Robert to
come out and say I was told it was something
personal and then to you know.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Just draw that parallel of talk about.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Doing things that are right for the team and if
this was personal, this felt outside of that realm and
it felt more that that relationship was continue to, you know,
to get more and more friction built around it, and
that you know, seems like a huge thing. Then leading
into the next Super Bowl, where I think Robert said
I'm going to have my eye on him for super
Bowl fifty.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Three, which I thought was very strong words that I
don't think most people knew. I'm gonna have my eyes
on him. He tagged basically the lots and put that
on Coach Belichick. And so now you're going from seventeen
to eighteen. You know, you not in the series, but
you scrambled to keep Josh. You needed Josh McDaniels. Thank
God for the Patriots that he came back and left Indianapolis.
(13:57):
At the altar, there's a tremendous amount of tension heading
into this, and I think they made a point to say,
with everything going on, Robert Kraft, did that Bill maybe
convinced him that year that you could still win with
way that I think we all think that Bill likes
to win what with which is good defense, don't turn
(14:18):
the ball over. You can win that way, And they
rode that formula basically to winning that Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
You're talking about eighteen now, yeah, yeah, I mean, just
real quick before that, I thought, you know, as you
led up to the seventeen super Bowl, you know, I
thought Robert definitively telling us that he told Bill, We're
not trading Tom Brady ever, right, So that leads to
the Garoppolo deal. In my mind, I think, you know,
it's it's left unsaid in the documentary, but I think,
(14:44):
you know, there was sort of a feeling that he
was kind of grieving a little bit without Garoppolo. I
think someone put it that way. And then, you know,
when you get down to the aftermath of the lost
super Bowl against Philly, and like I said, the players
and like I still I believe, like I belie that
Devin mccorty has no idea why Malcolm Butler didn't play.
I believe that, you know, Amidola saying, you know, as players,
(15:06):
we felt cheated a little bit. And then I thought,
Matt your point that Roberts said basically he was unnotice.
He was put on notice going into that eighteen season. Ultimately,
I think for the long term of the Patriots, it
was unfortunate the way the super Bowl game unfolded, Like
(15:27):
they scored forty points you know, in the playoff games
to get to the super Bowl. But the Super Bowl
itself they won thirteen to three. And what matt said
I think got validated is I think Robert looked at
it and says, well, he can still win his way.
I look back at it and said, well, they won
one game that way in the last five years, would
tell me that's not the way to try to win.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Mike, were you surprised to the extent of which Brady
admitted in Matthew Slater admitted that there wasn't a lot
of conversation going on between the head coach and the quarterback.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
No, and that was I think, you know, one of
the strengths of this, like I said, was really the
spotlight being put on this relationship and how much it
was devolving. You know, It's it's funny because I tend
to look at things just generally through the football lens,
and we never thought that the twenty eighteen twenty eighteen
team was that great, And even now it's like, how
did they pull this all together? And you could see
(16:18):
like the joylessness and you know, the highlights that they
were showing of touchdown nobody's really celebrating. And I'm thinking
back to the nine documentary of you know, Bill put
putting up video of guys making big plays and nobody
really celebrating, and here it is, and you know, usually
I feel like that's a death sentence for a team.
This isn't a team that has championship caliber, but they
(16:39):
were somehow, and it's just it shigned a whole new
light for me on that Super Bowl win, both from
how did they how were they able to pull up
probably you know, just to credit to Tom Brady and
you know, the Gronk and then the big plays that
were made, but also just how how are they able
to all work together and make that still happen?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Did you see joy in the aftermath of the AFC
Championship game against in the City Shure, That's the only
game that showed by the way, the eighteen season was the.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
ACT champions and that is the only game that I
thought that they showed genuine joy, you know, obviously until
the Super Bowl. Yeah, I did. But I also thought
it was really interesting the way they said, like we
leave off nine with Robert Kraft putting Bill on notice.
You opened ten with Bill understanding that and Bill making
some concessions, you know. Alex Guerrero was back, he was
(17:25):
allowed back in the facility and whatnot, and some of
those things that happened but really stood out to me.
And you mentioned this off air too, matt was Bill
and Tom were almost like not speaking, and it had
become Matthew Slater's job to sort of.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Didn't want it.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
He didn't want it.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Mike didn't sound like he wanted it.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And that to me was we're so used to We're
just you know, Matthew Slater just retired, but he has
been the spokesperson for this team for so long and
keeping everybody in line. And to hear him kind of
going to that side of the fence and really opening
up about what was going going on, it was it
was jarring to me.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
It really was.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You've never heard Matthew Slater kind of be critical of
Bill Belichick of what was going on in the locker room.
He's always trying to bring people together and keep it rolling.
So to me, some of those moments from Slater were
the standout moments of the series.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Paul, I'm not surprised to hear Rob Gronkowski being critical.
I'm not surprised to hear Danny m and Doola being critical.
I think we knew that that was, you know, that
really aid at them. I was surprised the first time
I heard the Matthew Slater comments to hear from such
a respected guy who retired just a second ago. You know,
so he was still here when this was going on again,
(18:35):
some of these things making you know, what if Bill
was still the coach. I thought they were very honest.
But I will give me credit for this. He said
what he said, but he always came back and he
closed it by saying, we trust our you know, don't
know why Malcolm didn't play in the super.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Bowl, but we trust, we trust our coach, and.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We ultimately trust our coach. And I think that that's
what he believes, an old school.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Guy, and I think ultimately that's what allowed it probably
just stay together. Was they will like questioning everything at
this point, but at the same time, the guy had
won five titles, so you still had that baseline trust.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I think one of the I would put him up
for a Best Supporting Actor nominee for a documentary mini series.
I thought Pioli was tremendous at the end to sort
of summarize is it Tom's who gets credit? Is it
Bill who gets credit. I thought that he was terrific
when he was kind of upset and found it disrespectful
(19:30):
Mike to choose sides.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of along the lines of
Ernie Adams. Ernie Adams delivered it in his kind of
own way. But I think Scott Pioli is, you know,
somebody who was on the inside got out. He's in
media now, he's well spoken, he's you know, had a
chance to kind of evaluate this whole period, and so
I think he's a he's you know, he's the spokesperson
that you kind of hope Bill would be, you know,
where you're upfront and just kind of, you know, this
(19:54):
is how it was. Maybe Bill will get there someday.
But yeah, he was a great addition. And I mean
I've talked to him a couple of times. I always
of his perspective.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Now on the win, he was really good. I was
a little disappointed. I want I wanted an answer, Yeah,
I wanted an answer.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Were you surprised at how emotional on camera? Tom Brady
wasn't talking about it with a couple of specifics here
calling Bill to tell him that it's time to go.
I didn't expect him to like gun the double clutch
at that point in time, that one, that one hit me,
you know, and his overall as he's trying to summarize it,
(20:29):
I know, Tom's an emotional guy, and where's his emotions
on his sleeves. I was surprised to the extent of
how emotional he was.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, I was. I mean, that's that's him. Yeah, that's him.
I wasn't overly surprised by that. I think he's a
very it's a guy who got emotional in the draft,
you know, like he's just been uh, he's Yeah, I
think that. I think Nancy may have said it at
some point during the series about you know, a sensitive
He's always been a little bit of a sensitive guy.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Again, to go back how much I felt connecting with
Tom Brady and I mean, in my notes, I just
wrote down Tom deserved that seventh super Bowl, you know,
and it's how can you watch Gronk and Tom and
realize these guys are at the height of their craft,
They're already being praised as the greatest players of all time.
They just wanted to win and have fun and not
come into this place and feel stressed out of their mind.
And you know, so it it. You know, this this episode,
(21:16):
I mean it really it's hard to say. I can't
believe I'm saying it, but it really cast a new
light for me on a number of different things, from
the super Bowl fifty three win to the twenty nineteen
season and how miserable Tom seemed through that where it
really seemed like it was going down to Tom winning
that super Bowl and kind of just getting the you know,
not I don't know what justification is the right word,
but you know, just finally getting to get that win
(21:37):
on his own and to feel like I really did
this one myself.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That you're a phrase about landing the plane is like
it's to me, it's it's Tom. You know, I'm proud
of our journey. And that's when he got emotional. It
was perfect and it doesn't need to be anything more
than that. You know, he did that got me and
then and then Bill he probably it was probably the
right thing. It was probably the right move.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Brutally honest, I thought, you.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Know, sort of as much as Builder, because Bill's not
an emotional guy. Bill's not like Tom in that regard.
Bill's very calculated. Not doesn't mean one's right the other's wrong.
But for him to sit back and say, yeah, this
is pretty good. I'm paraphrasing, this is pretty what we
did is special, and he acknowledged that, like sort of
(22:22):
looked back on it again. To your point, he was
still the coach at the time. It had to be
a sort of a conflicting sort of emotions and mentality
for him. But yeah, I thought it was a really
nice way to sort of the last ten minutes. I
thought it was really good, perfect, it was you know,
it's just you.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You brought it all home and said, look, it was
dramatic and there were things going on that we still
maybe would like to know more about.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
But at the end of the day, this is a.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Ten part documentary about a football team that played twenty seasons.
And you know, I also came away, as you know,
my fan side, I have three games to glory. I
have America's game, I have to do your jobs. I
have all all that behind the scenes, just talking football
for a fan that I want. But if you're going
to see the whole picture, I think you need to
watch this.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
So this is a Dynasty wrap up show that you're
watching and listening to here and as a reminder, the
ten part documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots is
streaming now exclusively on Apple tv Plus. So for us,
that's our wrap up of this series, but there's one
more pod to do and we will talk with the director,
Matt Hamichek, who has some very definitive opinions that Mike
(23:29):
sort of alluded to on what went into his mentality
of making this, as well as the author of the
book The Dynasty, Jeff Benedict, who's also one of the
executive producers. So stay tuned for that podcast coming up
a little
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Bit later on
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.