November 17, 2025 • 33 mins
What happens when you're not just climbing the ladder, but standing at the very top? For Lize Ratliff, that meant achieving her dream job as Head of Podcasts at Mamamia, after 10 years hustling to get there.
Lize’s journey is a masterclass in pure tenacity. She started at 19 as an intern from a small country town, so determined to work for Mia Freedman that she "literally didn't leave”. Over the next decade, she climbed the ladder through nine different titles - from intern to Mia's EA, to the first-ever producer of No Filter - eventually becoming the woman running the entire 29-show operation.
For Lize, the birth of her first child was the catalyst for an enormous change. Realising the demands of the job were incompatible with the life she wanted as a mother, she and her husband came to a terrifying realisation: they needed to ‘blow up their life.’
In a move that left many stunned, they both quit their high-profile Sydney jobs, moved to Newcastle, and Lize enrolled in a Master's degree to pursue a completely new career: As a high school English teacher.
This is a raw and candid look at what it means to walk away from the top. We cover the creative job application that got her hired, the moment she crashed her boss's car (and kept her job), and the overwhelming "what have I done?" feeling that hits after you trade a high-prestige career for a student ID.
Get ready to learn why sometimes, you have to "just jump.”
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CREDITS:
Guest: Lize Ratliff
Host: Sarah Davidson
Executive Producer: Courtney Ammenhauser
Senior Producer: Sally Best
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a mom with mea podcast. What happens
when you're not just climbing the ladder, you're standing at
the very top. You've landed the dream job you chase
since you were young. You're at the helm, calling the
shots in an industry that's absolutely booming. On paper, it's perfect,
(00:33):
but that's the thing about it all in it can
become your entire identity, and it might not leave room
for anything else. And when a new chapter of your
life begins, you're faced with a clash. That's the moment,
the moment you realize your dream job is becoming your
past life. It's the terrifying but thrilling realization that you
(00:55):
have to choose something new, not just a new job,
but maybe a new city, a whole new identity. Welcome
to Pivot Club, where we celebrate those light bulb moments.
Your host, Sarah Davidson, and my big light bulb moment
led me straight out of em and a law and
into creating my own business matcha Maiden. But today we're
(01:15):
celebrating a different story, a story about what happens when
you've already achieved that perfect career and have the courage
to walk away from it all to find out what's next.
We're here to unpack those big professional plot twists, getting
into the nitty gritty of redefining your career and navigating
the messy, complicated freedom of starting over. Today's guest is
(01:39):
lys Ratliffe, a name synonymous with the rise of Australian podcasting.
She's the former head of podcasts here at Mamma Mia,
Australia's largest women's podcast network. LZ's journey is a masterclass
in pure tenacity. She started at nineteen as an intern
from a small country town, so determined to work for
mere Freedman that she literally didn't leave. Over the next decade,
(02:01):
she climbed the ladder through nine different titles, from intern
to MEA's Ea to thee first ever producer of No Filter,
eventually becoming the woman running the entire twenty nine show operation.
As she tells it, the job wasn't just a job,
it was my entire identity. For lies, it was the
birth of her first child that was a catalyst for
(02:22):
an enormous change. Realizing the demands were incompatible with the
life she wanted as a mother, she and her husband
came to a terrifying realization they needed to blow up
their life. In a move that left many stunned, they
both quit their high profile Sydney jobs, moved to Newcastle
and Lies enrolled in a master's degree to pursue a
completely new career as a high school English teacher. This
(02:45):
is a raw and candid look at what it means
to walk away from the top. We cover the creative
job application that got her hired, the moment she crashed
her boss's car and kept her job, and the overwhelming
what have I done feeling that hits after you trade
a high prestige career for a student ID. Get ready
to learn why sometimes you have to shake it up
(03:05):
before someone shakes it up for you.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Lies.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Welcome to Pivot Club.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Thank you, Sarah. It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
It is so lovely to have you, especially have you
back being the once head of podcasts right here at
Mamma Mio. It's one of the biggest podcast networks in Australia,
and you were right at the head of the tree.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I was at the head of the tree for a
very long time. I was thinking I was at Mama
mea longer than I was at high school. Also, it
was a huge part of my identity.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And I did a big stalky stork. And I think
one of the most beautiful things is that you've had
nine different titles during your time at Mamma Mia, ranging
from intern very entry level all the way to head
of all of the shows at such a leading network.
So can you start by telling us how you got
(04:02):
that job?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Okay, well, there have been a few. I was fresh
out of high school nineteen. I moved from a small
country town in New South Wales called Barraba, population around
twelve hundred people to Sydney for UNI, and I decided
I wanted to be a journalist, but I wanted to
be in women's media, and I wanted to be as
(04:24):
close as I possibly could to me a freedman. I
was like, I want to work for her. I want
to be in her orbit. I'm going to become a
stalker and I'm going to get there. So my first
year of UNI, I really threw myself into interning. I
did an internship, but I don't know if you remember Primped.
It was Zoe Foster Blake's beauty blog she started, which
kind of turned into a bit of an empire. So
(04:46):
That was my first internship in media, and then I
went to Cosmo, Cleo, Dolly because they were all still around,
and I really immersed myself in women's media. And then
around September twenty twelve, Mom and Maya were hiring interns
and I applied and kind of off the back of
wanting to stand out, and you know, hearing how Zoe
(05:07):
Foster Blake had sent Maya a resume with a fake
letter from Rupert Murdoch, I was like, how can I
be creative like that and how can I grab their attention?
So back in the day when Mamma Mia was just
a website before it is the media entity it is today,
they had a weekly blog post called Best and Worst.
(05:27):
So I did my application in a best and Worst
theme and then I got the call up and I
became a Friday intern. And then I just didn't leave.
I literally didn't leave. I just stuck around.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I absolutely love how, even at the first dot point
of this conversation, your tenacity and dedication to just finding
a way is already so inspiring to our listeners that
you can decide you are going to be alongside Maya
Friedman become an intern and make your way there. That's extraordinary. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So I interned three year back in twenty twelve. I
was like, I'm not leaving. You can't get rid of me,
and then I think they eventually felt sorry for me,
and Jamiela, who was the editor in chief at the time,
was like, do you want a job and I was like, yes, please, anything, anything.
So I started as a kind of casual running Sundays
on the websites, so I'd log on every Sunday. Usually
(06:24):
Sunday was a big day for people to die, so
it was always a bit of a breaking newsday. I
can remember like Michael Schumacher's accident happened on a Sunday,
Peaches Geldoff died on a Sunday. So it was always
very busy and that meant all of the editors used
to jump on and help out, which was great. And
then from there I think I landed a Monday and
(06:45):
I was also studying my creative writing and Media and
Comms degree at the same time, So first year of
UNI was my first year of interning really, and then
second year Union I got a part time job at
MMAMEA and by my third year and final year of UNI,
I was working full time at Muma Mea and studying
full time. Oh my goodness, I really just didn't leave.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And I think something that really stands out about you
is it sounds like not just that you didn't leave,
but that you became irrepressible, that you were like, I
am just going to be here and make myself available
and work super hard. And I think one thing from
the outside that people perhaps don't understand is that there
isn't really a traditional way into most of the roles
(07:29):
that you see in media. It is often just getting
in front of the right people at the right time
and positioning yourself best to be the easiest choice one
hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And I think it's like at this point, MoMA May
didn't have a podcast network. You know, you didn't come
till twenty fourteen, So this is like from twenty twelve
to twenty fourteen ish. During that time I was writing,
I became a content producer, which back in those days
just meant you wrote articles. And then me and wanted
to start a new website called Debrief Daily for over forties.
(08:02):
So she put me on as a junior writer on
that site, and under that I became her eas well
during that time I crashed her car, she still didn't
fire me. It was going really well. And then when
you Debrief Daily launched in twenty fourteen, that's also when
they decided to launch pods. Yeah, and that's when No
Filter was born. So I was the first producer on
(08:23):
No Filter from that point for a very long time.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And I mean that's just one of the many roles
that you've had. And I did find it fascinating looking
at your LinkedIn and seeing that you had been me
as EA because again I think this being the Pivot Club,
even within the roles you've had, the way that you've
pivoted to become head of podcasts in an organization that
didn't have podcasts when you joined.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
When I was at UNI, podcasts weren't really a thing.
It's not like you could go and study how to
be a podcast producer. It's something that they learned to
do on the job.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah. And so I mean before even the pivot that
we're here to talk about, you had already kind of
taken that adaptability into your stride and it has obviously
served you so well. But when you did get to
that really senior role and became sort of head of
the whole operation. How did you introduce yourself and relate
your identity to that role when you had it?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Oh, it was my entire identity. That's like who I was.
I was lies from Mamma Mia, I was producer, lies
from out Loud. I was Lis ratleft at the end
of No Filter. Yeah, and I wore it with a
huge badge of pride. I lived and breathed my job.
It was my life twenty four to seven. I was
around at any hour of the day. If we had
a podcast going alive at five am, I was up.
(09:34):
If we had a record, I was there. It was
who I was.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And so with so much of your identity thrown into it,
can you paint a picture for us of what your
days would actually look like. Was it all sort of
your high profile talent and chart topping shows. I assume
there's a serious, knitty gritty behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Very knitty gritty. It's hard because I had come up
through the ranks. You know, I had done every job
there was in the podcast team since it launched in
twenty fourteen until I was I started as head of
podcast in twenty twenty, so I did leave for nine
months and then I came back to do the head
of podcast role. I knew every single touch point of
that network. I knew every single history cornerstone of each
(10:15):
show and what worked and what didn't. So I was
probably very hands on in terms of someone who was
overseeing twenty nine shows and fifteen producers. Probably a bit
too in the weeds, as we used to say, as
opposed to like in the helicopter. Yeah, So my day
would be filled with a lot of studio issues back
(10:35):
in the day, and I would often find myself stepping
in and me would be like stop it, just like
you've got a team to do that, and I'm like, no, no,
but I can do it. I can do it. So
that was probably not the best. So it was concept
ideas with the senior leadership team. It was ad revenue
with the sales team. It was managing a producer who
(10:57):
wanted a different role. It was an interview on the
quickie had fallen through. We needed to get someone else.
Donald Trump had gotten COVID. What are we doing, who
we're talking to? We need to have a bonus episode.
The Queen had died on a Wednesday morning, and I
was pregnant at the time with my first child, and
during that time I'd also taken on a deputy editorial
director role, so I was overseeing socials and the website
(11:20):
as well. I found myself publishing the article that the
Queen was dead at four am because I had pregnancy
in somnia. So when I say I was in it,
I was fully in it. And then it was booking talent,
dealing with hosts, everything a podcast touched I touched.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, which, as you said, is an enormous workload and
probably so much on your plate, but also what made
you so brilliant at what you did, So I think
sometimes we do think we give a little bit too much,
but it created the network that exists today, which is
an incredible legacy. But on paper, I think, not only
(11:55):
is that a dream job for so many people, it's
also the dream job that you had. That was your
dream when you started out, and you were at the
top of your game in this booming industry that had
sort of come out of obscurity into suddenly the forefront
of media. What started to feel like maybe it wasn't
working anymore.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I got pregnant and my first pregnancy, they were incredibly
supportive me. I was the first person I told apart
from my husband like that, that's how close we were
and how in it I was, and I started to
realize that I probably couldn't operate at the level that
I wanted to operate in the job and the level
I wanted to operate as a mother. Over my eight
(12:39):
months being pregnant while working, because I had to finish
up at thirty two weeks, I think because of my
high blood pressure, I had a few issues going on.
I went on maternity leave not knowing what i'd come
back to or if I'd come back, and that was
really terrifying because, as I said, it was my life,
it was my identity. But having my daughter kind of
(13:01):
just made me take a big hard look at myself
and say, right, well, that's twelve years of your life
that you've got right there. Essentially, what do you want
the next stage to look like? Do you want to
be the head of podcasts with your daughter? We had
no family in Sydney, so that was a very big
decision for us as well. With your daughter in daycare
five days a week and you dropping her off at
(13:22):
seven am and picking her up at six pm, because
that's how you're going to have to operate if you
want to operate at the level that you are still
operating at, and probably a lot from myself, but the
level of people I presumed expected of me because that
had been the way I'd always operated. And I had
to kind of sit down with my husband and we
had a big talk. You know. He was running pubs
(13:44):
for Maryvale, which is a big hospitality group in Sydney,
so we both had semi big jobs that were long
hours and different hours, and bringing a little person who
was so very wanted into this world, we just kind
of knew we had to blow up our life. And
we'd been talking about getting out of Sydney for probably
five years before we got married. When we got married,
(14:06):
and we just never really did. But having Phoebe really
made us go, Okay, so what are we doing here?
Like pivot, what are we doing? What's going to be next?
And that's when we decided. It was around April twenty
twenty four. I had started looking into different careers. I
(14:26):
thought maybe we need to get out of Sydney, and
we decided to both quit our jobs and move to Newcastle,
which is two hours north of Sydney.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
It's funny that you said that you realized you'd have
to blow up your life. And we call this section
the messy middle because of exactly that. A pivot, even
the greatest pivot that was one of the best decisions
of your life, it's messy. It does blow things up.
They're pretty uncomfortable while you get used to the big
change and even if they are necessary. I think one
(15:10):
of the great things about people making these changes on
maternity leave is that it is the first time that
you slow down and actually realize, I can choose something else.
You don't need maternity leave to do that, but I
think that's what it takes for a lot of people
to allow themselves.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
It's so true and for me, like I didn't have
a gap year, went straight from high school to studying
full time, working full time and just kept going. So
to have that break and that clearness to just be like,
what do I actually want my life to look like?
Do I want to be this kind of mother? Do
I want to be that kind of mother? Where do
I want to be in my career in ten years
(15:46):
I'm thirty and I've already done my dream job. That
was honestly what I was thinking, Like, I don't know
what's next. And that sounds so wanky, like if I
heard myself saying that, it'd be like, oh, what is
But it was true because I'm like, I've done everything
I want to do in my media career right now.
I don't necessarily want to go and be ahead of
(16:08):
podcasts at a different network. If I did, that would
probably be overseas. Yeah, I have a child. I can't
do that. So what are we going to do? Oh,
we're just going to blow everything up, leave Sydney, quit
our jobs. I'm going to go back to UNI and
We're starting again.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And that's what happened, which is so incredibly empowering to
be an example to people that you can do that
even at the height of an incredible career, and you
can choose that. We often look at the macro of
what are my titles? What does life look like on
the outside, but the micro of the day to day
what does that make my life involve? You talked about
(16:45):
the childcare and the logistics, that's the stuff you should
make the decision based on. But of all the pivots
that you could have made, what was it about education
that pulled you in? Because that seems like quite a
left field decision.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Oh yeah, it was. It was I was thinking of
jobs I could do anywhere. Yeah, because media and what
we do is very Sydney Melbourne focused, and I'm from
the Bush originally, and I really wanted to get back
to my country roots. As I have Sensler, you can
still be in media and not be in Sydney or Melbourne,
but not hold probably a full time job as you
(17:24):
would usually expect, because to work and a place like
Mum and me, you really need to be in the office.
You need to be vibing off creativity and connections and
things like that. And COVID changed that for a little bit.
But I knew if I wanted to stay, I need
to be in Sydney. So I started thinking practically. And
I had been doing some teaching at the Australian Radio,
(17:45):
Film and Television School afters doing some podcast courses as
like just how to type thing, and I was like, oh,
I like this, this is fun, like kids are cool.
And then I thought how influential my English teacher was
to me. I remember telling my year ten English teacher,
missus Lockhart, that I wanted to be a journalist and
(18:06):
she helped miss so much, as did my eleven and
twelve teacher, Missus Buck. So I was like, I can
have an impact somewhere else, Like I don't have to
be making s those people listen to to have an impact.
I can actually be in a room and have an
impact on the next generation who want to do things.
And I also just felt like I had needed a
break from media. So I enrolled in the secondary teaching
(18:30):
course for high school English and Society and culture. Now
have not yet sets foot in a classroom, but I
do walk past teenagers every day and I'm like, why
am I doing this? Why am I doing this? But anyway,
that's part of it. We'll see.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I think another thing people are really curious about when
it comes to making a big change is the practical
steps that you take. Like on the day that you
decided I'm going to go after education, do you sit
down and google it? Like how do you find your courses?
Do you sit with a partner or a mentor do
you call a fellow teacher.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's a bit because I had a three month.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Old Okay, yeah, so you don't remember anything blacked write out,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I was very very much in the thick of it,
and I was like, Okay, to make this happen, I
need to do a bridging course. So I needed to
do three English subjects that my Comms degree didn't do necessarily.
So I was like, oh, well, I'm on matt leeve,
like I'm not quitting my job just yet. I can
just kind of dip my toes into this and see
if this works. So I enrolled through an online UNI
(19:35):
that was close to where I grew up, and I
was like, okay, well, I'm just going to start and
see if this works and see how it goes with
like a three month old and a four month old. Thankfully,
it was a lot of reading books and writing essays,
and that was a muscle I hadn't used in a
very long time, and I was like, oh, I can
do this. And then because of that, I was like, yep, no,
(19:55):
this is what we will do. So I rang my
old English teacher and I was like, this is what
I'm thinking of doing. She said yes, great, rang a
couple of teacher friends, and they flagged all of the
things that you read in the news at the moment,
but also so it can be really great. I spoke
to my friends who had teacher parents. I really kind
(20:15):
of analyzed it, but I don't think I was necessarily
in my right mind. I had a three month old
and I was breastfeeding, and the hormones were really there,
and anyway, maybe that is when to make the big decisions.
Who knows. So I was like, nope, that's what we're doing.
But then I was like, hang on, you do still
have to somehow earn money to pay for your unied
(20:38):
degree and pay for the life you want to leave,
and if you're leaving Sydney, pay for things. And then
I was like, oh ah, yes, so this is where
it gets complicated. What am I going to do? And
thankfully people wanted to hire me as a podcast producer
and a freelancer. So Phoebe by that point was six
months old. We'd moved, I was full time studying, dipping
(20:58):
my toe back in kind of consulting for podcasts, and
we just kind of started creating this new life in
a new town where I knew no one, had had
no friends. I had left behind all of my friends
in Sydney who had babies the same age, and my
great mother's group and my support network, but I had
moved three hours closer to my family.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So yeah, you win some you lose them. Yeah, I'm
really glad you covered the financial aspect of it, because
I think sometimes we do skate over that when we
talk about a pivot. We talk about the motivational side,
or the fears and the doubts emotionally. But it is
a big deal to walk away from a really financially
rewarding job and go back to study. What was your
(21:38):
biggest fear? Was it the finances, was it removing the
prestige of what you were doing? For some people, it's
the new environment. Or were you just so hazy that
you were just like we.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think I was so hazy. I was like we.
And then we got here to Newcastle in May twenty
twenty four and I kind of put my head up
for air and I was like, oh, I have left
my very good, high paying job that was my entire identity.
I have moved away from all my friends, a lot
(22:14):
of who were attached to that job. I have removed
myself from my entire support network of my mother's group.
I have no income stream, I have no security blanket,
and I know nobody in Newcastle essentially apart from one friend.
So honestly, I kind of went fuck, what have I done?
(22:37):
And the first six months here were really bloody hard.
Phoebe wasn't in daycare yet, so I was studying three
subjects a trimester. I was trying to build myself a
reputation as a freelance podcast producer, consultant. Whatever you want
(22:58):
to pay me, Just someone give me some money please,
and I will.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Do And scaredmpletely scared, Yeah, because I didn't really have
anything that I had before, and I had this thing
that was fully dependent on me.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So yeah, I think that comes back to calling it
the messy middle and calling out that even pivots that
are the greatest thing that you've ever done off such
a necessary change, are really uncomfortable and hard, and often
you are questioning your decision for the first few months,
if not longer. Do you think that being a new
(23:37):
parent during that phase was a strength.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I think it was the jump I needed. As I said,
I'd been a mum of mea since I was nineteen
and I turned thirty there, Wow, I needed to get out,
and the network probably needed me to get out so
it could grow in a different direction like it has
and grow more and pivot into video and all of
these things that I couldn't have foreseen. So I think
it was probably time from everyone's part for their Perhad
(24:06):
I not had a baby, still be there, and it
probably wouldn't be right because it needed someone else with
a different direction to come in and go, right, we're
going over here now, and I'd be like, well, back
in my day, we used to do it like this, Oh,
We've always done it this way. Like I was starting
to become that person, I was like, no, we don't
do it like that. Here, we do it this way.
So it needed fresh new people to come in and
(24:27):
see things differently, and I needed that perspective on my life. Really,
the messy middle is such a perfect way to put it.
Having Phoebe was one hundred percent the push I needed
to do all of this, yeah, because it would have
been very easy to just keep going and struggle through
it and keep going and change my job and step
down from my role and go in a different direction,
(24:50):
probably still within the same company, but maybe be a
bit of that ball and chain back in my day person,
which wouldn't have been healthy for me or them. And
having my daughter kind of made the decision of my
life blowing up for me because it was already such
a big thing, you know, and it did make me
more ambitious, just in a way that would work for us,
(25:12):
the three of us as a family. So that's studying,
that's you know, taking on freelance work that I could take.
I mean, did she watch too much dancing fruit in
those days on YouTube?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Nice?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
But we got through it, and then she went to
daycare when she turned one, and that's when I kind
of came up for air and saw the light a bit,
and I was like, oh, this could work. I can
study and freelance three days a week and we're in
a really good position. And then I feel pregnant again.
Now I'm staring down the barrel of holy shit, like
(25:46):
I've finally built this good freelance career that I have.
I've got great clients, I've got a stable income finally
after a year, and I'm just going to go blow
it all up again and then hopefully six to eight
months return and be like, Hi, can you pay me again?
And can I do from work?
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It really does prove, though, that we have a lot
of fear around becoming mothers when we're career driven, ambitious people,
and what that means for our motivation, how others perceive
us our income earning capacity. And I think you often
shy away from a pivot when your life is already
(26:25):
going to change so much. But you're an amazing example that,
if anything, is kind of the best time to make
a big change because everything's in the air anyway.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Everything's in the air. I wanted to be around anyway,
like I wanted to be available. Is like putting her
in front of the TV in the best option? Probably not,
but we got through it, and I will get through
it again. Like the next turtle is my two pracks
for UNI that I have to do, so a four
week teaching back and a six week teaching brack. Wo,
How the hell do I do that with two children
(26:54):
under two? I don't know, but we'll get through it.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I believe in you. If anyone can do it, I
feel like you have spent your career practicing juggling lots
of balls.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
We'll see, we'll see that. It's the kind of like
that's next year's issue. And you know the degree technically
it's a master's of two years full time. So I've
chopped and changed, and I've added on a subject here
or there, and then I decided in January to add
society and culture to the mix as well as English teaching.
So I've added on a bit more, but hopefully by
(27:27):
twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight i've done, I'll be
in a classroom and the pivot will have taken place.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Well, Coming to your life now and what all of
this has led you to. We've talked a lot about
the shifting our identity in how we perceive ourselves, how
society perceives us, how we introduce ourselves. How now are
you introducing yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I think a bit of it is still tied to
what I do because I did re enter the podcasting
world just as a freelance producer. So you know, when
I met you, I was like, Oh, I'm working on
this podcast over here that you were just on, and
I'm working with a former colleague on her podcast, so
that when I went to Sydney for Clere Stevens's book
(28:26):
launch earlier in the months, I was like, oh, I'm
close producer. So I'm still doing a bit of that. Yeah,
And I don't know if I'll be able to really
come to terms with my identity as a teacher until
i've stepped into a classroom and I hate saying student. Yes, Like,
my obstetrician said, what do you do? And I was like, well,
I'm studying and I'm a freelancer. She's like, so you're
a student, so on your son's birth certificate it's going
(28:50):
to say student. And I was like, ugh, could we
like PEP podcasts? Like can we just say producer?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Like, I don't know, there is nothing uncol about upskilling.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
No, that's right my identity. It's a really hard question
to answer. I I'm a mom, I'm a freelancer, and
I'm a student. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I love that you're a student, and I think you
could put a marketing rebrand on that as I'm a
lifelong learner. I'm a continuous lifelong learner, which is to
be a mature age student.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, lifelong learner is nice. I'll take that.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Would you say that your approach to study has changed
since your undergraduate because one of the things I think
does make mature age students stand out is that they
are better at studying. That's why they ask good questions
because you bring this life experience of how to learn.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I thought that it would, but then I found myself
cramming and leaving things to the last minute, and then
stressing about an essay being due in two days and
I hadn't started yet. It all comes back like I thought,
I'm going to do that again. I'm going to be organized,
I'm structured. I'm a mother now like I am. I
know how to run shit, like I am tied. This
(30:08):
is going to be great. Then like call my husband
and I'm like, can you take Phoebe for the day
because I've got this essay jew and I haven't started yet.
And it's j in like two days. He's been amazing.
I've has my parents and my in laws to just
like drop everything and come down when I have left
it a bit too late. So I would like to
think that I've changed, but I haven't, which is maybe
(30:31):
just how I learn.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Maybe it's your process, you know, maybe it is. Yeah,
looking back at your time at Mamma Mea. I think
another thing we underestimate is how much we learn on
the go and how transferable the skills are from pretty
much every experience that you have, even if it doesn't
seem like it relates to the new thing you're doing
in any way. What are some of the random skills
(30:53):
you mastered that now you will find really useful in
education or in the classroom when you get there.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
I think in my first job as a writer and
a junior writer and a content producer, it was very
much how to get straight to the point, which I
do in an essay or a story. So it's like, well,
let's not fill it with fluff, what is the point
of this? What are we doing? And that's from some
of the amazing mentors I've had at Muma Meter over
the time. Obviously from an audio perspective. In a podcast perspective,
(31:22):
it's how can we use new technology to learn different things? Yeah,
so a few of my assignments have been podcasts because
I'm that great, no way, let's do that. Yeah your strengths,
Yeah exactly. So, oh god, I use my skills from
Mamma Mia every day. It makes you fast. Back in
the day we used to say move fast and break things. Yeah,
(31:43):
I was there from when it was very much a
family startup to a huge empire.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah. What advice do you have for anyone listening who
is perhaps at a similar stage as you were earlier.
They're in their dream job on paper, but they're feeling
that deep pull towards something different, And what would you
maybe say to yourself back then, jump?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, just do it yeah, because like if you're feeling
that way, you probably need to shake up your life anyway.
So just shake it up.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Oh I love that so much. Well, Lies, congratulations on
everything that you have done and in huge, huge pivot
and obviously you are thriving and have another little bub
on the way. Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Thank you, Sarah, thank you for having me back.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That's all for this episode of Pivot Club. We've got
another great story dropping next week, so make sure you're
following the show to catch it straight away. And if
this chat sparked something for you, the best way to
say thank you is to share it with a friend
or leave us a quick rating. This episode of Pivot
Club was produced by Sally Best. The executive producer is
Courtney Ammenhauser. See you same time next week. Mumma Mia
(33:04):
acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this
podcast is recorded on
You're listening to a mom with mea podcast. What happens
when you're not just climbing the ladder, you're standing at
the very top. You've landed the dream job you chase
since you were young. You're at the helm, calling the
shots in an industry that's absolutely booming. On paper, it's perfect,
(00:33):
but that's the thing about it all in it can
become your entire identity, and it might not leave room
for anything else. And when a new chapter of your
life begins, you're faced with a clash. That's the moment,
the moment you realize your dream job is becoming your
past life. It's the terrifying but thrilling realization that you
(00:55):
have to choose something new, not just a new job,
but maybe a new city, a whole new identity. Welcome
to Pivot Club, where we celebrate those light bulb moments.
Your host, Sarah Davidson, and my big light bulb moment
led me straight out of em and a law and
into creating my own business matcha Maiden. But today we're
(01:15):
celebrating a different story, a story about what happens when
you've already achieved that perfect career and have the courage
to walk away from it all to find out what's next.
We're here to unpack those big professional plot twists, getting
into the nitty gritty of redefining your career and navigating
the messy, complicated freedom of starting over. Today's guest is
(01:39):
lys Ratliffe, a name synonymous with the rise of Australian podcasting.
She's the former head of podcasts here at Mamma Mia,
Australia's largest women's podcast network. LZ's journey is a masterclass
in pure tenacity. She started at nineteen as an intern
from a small country town, so determined to work for
mere Freedman that she literally didn't leave. Over the next decade,
(02:01):
she climbed the ladder through nine different titles, from intern
to MEA's Ea to thee first ever producer of No Filter,
eventually becoming the woman running the entire twenty nine show operation.
As she tells it, the job wasn't just a job,
it was my entire identity. For lies, it was the
birth of her first child that was a catalyst for
(02:22):
an enormous change. Realizing the demands were incompatible with the
life she wanted as a mother, she and her husband
came to a terrifying realization they needed to blow up
their life. In a move that left many stunned, they
both quit their high profile Sydney jobs, moved to Newcastle
and Lies enrolled in a master's degree to pursue a
completely new career as a high school English teacher. This
(02:45):
is a raw and candid look at what it means
to walk away from the top. We cover the creative
job application that got her hired, the moment she crashed
her boss's car and kept her job, and the overwhelming
what have I done feeling that hits after you trade
a high prestige career for a student ID. Get ready
to learn why sometimes you have to shake it up
(03:05):
before someone shakes it up for you.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Lies.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Welcome to Pivot Club.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Thank you, Sarah. It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
It is so lovely to have you, especially have you
back being the once head of podcasts right here at
Mamma Mio. It's one of the biggest podcast networks in Australia,
and you were right at the head of the tree.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I was at the head of the tree for a
very long time. I was thinking I was at Mama
mea longer than I was at high school. Also, it
was a huge part of my identity.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And I did a big stalky stork. And I think
one of the most beautiful things is that you've had
nine different titles during your time at Mamma Mia, ranging
from intern very entry level all the way to head
of all of the shows at such a leading network.
So can you start by telling us how you got
(04:02):
that job?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Okay, well, there have been a few. I was fresh
out of high school nineteen. I moved from a small
country town in New South Wales called Barraba, population around
twelve hundred people to Sydney for UNI, and I decided
I wanted to be a journalist, but I wanted to
be in women's media, and I wanted to be as
(04:24):
close as I possibly could to me a freedman. I
was like, I want to work for her. I want
to be in her orbit. I'm going to become a
stalker and I'm going to get there. So my first
year of UNI, I really threw myself into interning. I
did an internship, but I don't know if you remember Primped.
It was Zoe Foster Blake's beauty blog she started, which
kind of turned into a bit of an empire. So
(04:46):
That was my first internship in media, and then I
went to Cosmo, Cleo, Dolly because they were all still around,
and I really immersed myself in women's media. And then
around September twenty twelve, Mom and Maya were hiring interns
and I applied and kind of off the back of
wanting to stand out, and you know, hearing how Zoe
(05:07):
Foster Blake had sent Maya a resume with a fake
letter from Rupert Murdoch, I was like, how can I
be creative like that and how can I grab their attention?
So back in the day when Mamma Mia was just
a website before it is the media entity it is today,
they had a weekly blog post called Best and Worst.
(05:27):
So I did my application in a best and Worst
theme and then I got the call up and I
became a Friday intern. And then I just didn't leave.
I literally didn't leave. I just stuck around.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I absolutely love how, even at the first dot point
of this conversation, your tenacity and dedication to just finding
a way is already so inspiring to our listeners that
you can decide you are going to be alongside Maya
Friedman become an intern and make your way there. That's extraordinary. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So I interned three year back in twenty twelve. I
was like, I'm not leaving. You can't get rid of me,
and then I think they eventually felt sorry for me,
and Jamiela, who was the editor in chief at the time,
was like, do you want a job and I was like, yes, please, anything, anything.
So I started as a kind of casual running Sundays
on the websites, so I'd log on every Sunday. Usually
(06:24):
Sunday was a big day for people to die, so
it was always a bit of a breaking newsday. I
can remember like Michael Schumacher's accident happened on a Sunday,
Peaches Geldoff died on a Sunday. So it was always
very busy and that meant all of the editors used
to jump on and help out, which was great. And
then from there I think I landed a Monday and
(06:45):
I was also studying my creative writing and Media and
Comms degree at the same time, So first year of
UNI was my first year of interning really, and then
second year Union I got a part time job at
MMAMEA and by my third year and final year of UNI,
I was working full time at Muma Mea and studying
full time. Oh my goodness, I really just didn't leave.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And I think something that really stands out about you
is it sounds like not just that you didn't leave,
but that you became irrepressible, that you were like, I
am just going to be here and make myself available
and work super hard. And I think one thing from
the outside that people perhaps don't understand is that there
isn't really a traditional way into most of the roles
(07:29):
that you see in media. It is often just getting
in front of the right people at the right time
and positioning yourself best to be the easiest choice one
hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And I think it's like at this point, MoMA May
didn't have a podcast network. You know, you didn't come
till twenty fourteen, So this is like from twenty twelve
to twenty fourteen ish. During that time I was writing,
I became a content producer, which back in those days
just meant you wrote articles. And then me and wanted
to start a new website called Debrief Daily for over forties.
(08:02):
So she put me on as a junior writer on
that site, and under that I became her eas well
during that time I crashed her car, she still didn't
fire me. It was going really well. And then when
you Debrief Daily launched in twenty fourteen, that's also when
they decided to launch pods. Yeah, and that's when No
Filter was born. So I was the first producer on
(08:23):
No Filter from that point for a very long time.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And I mean that's just one of the many roles
that you've had. And I did find it fascinating looking
at your LinkedIn and seeing that you had been me
as EA because again I think this being the Pivot Club,
even within the roles you've had, the way that you've
pivoted to become head of podcasts in an organization that
didn't have podcasts when you joined.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
When I was at UNI, podcasts weren't really a thing.
It's not like you could go and study how to
be a podcast producer. It's something that they learned to
do on the job.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah. And so I mean before even the pivot that
we're here to talk about, you had already kind of
taken that adaptability into your stride and it has obviously
served you so well. But when you did get to
that really senior role and became sort of head of
the whole operation. How did you introduce yourself and relate
your identity to that role when you had it?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Oh, it was my entire identity. That's like who I was.
I was lies from Mamma Mia, I was producer, lies
from out Loud. I was Lis ratleft at the end
of No Filter. Yeah, and I wore it with a
huge badge of pride. I lived and breathed my job.
It was my life twenty four to seven. I was
around at any hour of the day. If we had
a podcast going alive at five am, I was up.
(09:34):
If we had a record, I was there. It was
who I was.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And so with so much of your identity thrown into it,
can you paint a picture for us of what your
days would actually look like. Was it all sort of
your high profile talent and chart topping shows. I assume
there's a serious, knitty gritty behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Very knitty gritty. It's hard because I had come up
through the ranks. You know, I had done every job
there was in the podcast team since it launched in
twenty fourteen until I was I started as head of
podcast in twenty twenty, so I did leave for nine
months and then I came back to do the head
of podcast role. I knew every single touch point of
that network. I knew every single history cornerstone of each
(10:15):
show and what worked and what didn't. So I was
probably very hands on in terms of someone who was
overseeing twenty nine shows and fifteen producers. Probably a bit
too in the weeds, as we used to say, as
opposed to like in the helicopter. Yeah, So my day
would be filled with a lot of studio issues back
(10:35):
in the day, and I would often find myself stepping
in and me would be like stop it, just like
you've got a team to do that, and I'm like, no, no,
but I can do it. I can do it. So
that was probably not the best. So it was concept
ideas with the senior leadership team. It was ad revenue
with the sales team. It was managing a producer who
(10:57):
wanted a different role. It was an interview on the
quickie had fallen through. We needed to get someone else.
Donald Trump had gotten COVID. What are we doing, who
we're talking to? We need to have a bonus episode.
The Queen had died on a Wednesday morning, and I
was pregnant at the time with my first child, and
during that time I'd also taken on a deputy editorial
director role, so I was overseeing socials and the website
(11:20):
as well. I found myself publishing the article that the
Queen was dead at four am because I had pregnancy
in somnia. So when I say I was in it,
I was fully in it. And then it was booking talent,
dealing with hosts, everything a podcast touched I touched.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, which, as you said, is an enormous workload and
probably so much on your plate, but also what made
you so brilliant at what you did, So I think
sometimes we do think we give a little bit too much,
but it created the network that exists today, which is
an incredible legacy. But on paper, I think, not only
(11:55):
is that a dream job for so many people, it's
also the dream job that you had. That was your
dream when you started out, and you were at the
top of your game in this booming industry that had
sort of come out of obscurity into suddenly the forefront
of media. What started to feel like maybe it wasn't
working anymore.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I got pregnant and my first pregnancy, they were incredibly
supportive me. I was the first person I told apart
from my husband like that, that's how close we were
and how in it I was, and I started to
realize that I probably couldn't operate at the level that
I wanted to operate in the job and the level
I wanted to operate as a mother. Over my eight
(12:39):
months being pregnant while working, because I had to finish
up at thirty two weeks, I think because of my
high blood pressure, I had a few issues going on.
I went on maternity leave not knowing what i'd come
back to or if I'd come back, and that was
really terrifying because, as I said, it was my life,
it was my identity. But having my daughter kind of
(13:01):
just made me take a big hard look at myself
and say, right, well, that's twelve years of your life
that you've got right there. Essentially, what do you want
the next stage to look like? Do you want to
be the head of podcasts with your daughter? We had
no family in Sydney, so that was a very big
decision for us as well. With your daughter in daycare
five days a week and you dropping her off at
(13:22):
seven am and picking her up at six pm, because
that's how you're going to have to operate if you
want to operate at the level that you are still
operating at, and probably a lot from myself, but the
level of people I presumed expected of me because that
had been the way I'd always operated. And I had
to kind of sit down with my husband and we
had a big talk. You know. He was running pubs
(13:44):
for Maryvale, which is a big hospitality group in Sydney,
so we both had semi big jobs that were long
hours and different hours, and bringing a little person who
was so very wanted into this world, we just kind
of knew we had to blow up our life. And
we'd been talking about getting out of Sydney for probably
five years before we got married. When we got married,
(14:06):
and we just never really did. But having Phoebe really
made us go, Okay, so what are we doing here?
Like pivot, what are we doing? What's going to be next?
And that's when we decided. It was around April twenty
twenty four. I had started looking into different careers. I
(14:26):
thought maybe we need to get out of Sydney, and
we decided to both quit our jobs and move to Newcastle,
which is two hours north of Sydney.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
It's funny that you said that you realized you'd have
to blow up your life. And we call this section
the messy middle because of exactly that. A pivot, even
the greatest pivot that was one of the best decisions
of your life, it's messy. It does blow things up.
They're pretty uncomfortable while you get used to the big
change and even if they are necessary. I think one
(15:10):
of the great things about people making these changes on
maternity leave is that it is the first time that
you slow down and actually realize, I can choose something else.
You don't need maternity leave to do that, but I
think that's what it takes for a lot of people
to allow themselves.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
It's so true and for me, like I didn't have
a gap year, went straight from high school to studying
full time, working full time and just kept going. So
to have that break and that clearness to just be like,
what do I actually want my life to look like?
Do I want to be this kind of mother? Do
I want to be that kind of mother? Where do
I want to be in my career in ten years
(15:46):
I'm thirty and I've already done my dream job. That
was honestly what I was thinking, Like, I don't know
what's next. And that sounds so wanky, like if I
heard myself saying that, it'd be like, oh, what is
But it was true because I'm like, I've done everything
I want to do in my media career right now.
I don't necessarily want to go and be ahead of
(16:08):
podcasts at a different network. If I did, that would
probably be overseas. Yeah, I have a child. I can't
do that. So what are we going to do? Oh,
we're just going to blow everything up, leave Sydney, quit
our jobs. I'm going to go back to UNI and
We're starting again.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And that's what happened, which is so incredibly empowering to
be an example to people that you can do that
even at the height of an incredible career, and you
can choose that. We often look at the macro of
what are my titles? What does life look like on
the outside, but the micro of the day to day
what does that make my life involve? You talked about
(16:45):
the childcare and the logistics, that's the stuff you should
make the decision based on. But of all the pivots
that you could have made, what was it about education
that pulled you in? Because that seems like quite a
left field decision.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Oh yeah, it was. It was I was thinking of
jobs I could do anywhere. Yeah, because media and what
we do is very Sydney Melbourne focused, and I'm from
the Bush originally, and I really wanted to get back
to my country roots. As I have Sensler, you can
still be in media and not be in Sydney or Melbourne,
but not hold probably a full time job as you
(17:24):
would usually expect, because to work and a place like
Mum and me, you really need to be in the office.
You need to be vibing off creativity and connections and
things like that. And COVID changed that for a little bit.
But I knew if I wanted to stay, I need
to be in Sydney. So I started thinking practically. And
I had been doing some teaching at the Australian Radio,
(17:45):
Film and Television School afters doing some podcast courses as
like just how to type thing, and I was like, oh,
I like this, this is fun, like kids are cool.
And then I thought how influential my English teacher was
to me. I remember telling my year ten English teacher,
missus Lockhart, that I wanted to be a journalist and
(18:06):
she helped miss so much, as did my eleven and
twelve teacher, Missus Buck. So I was like, I can
have an impact somewhere else, Like I don't have to
be making s those people listen to to have an impact.
I can actually be in a room and have an
impact on the next generation who want to do things.
And I also just felt like I had needed a
break from media. So I enrolled in the secondary teaching
(18:30):
course for high school English and Society and culture. Now
have not yet sets foot in a classroom, but I
do walk past teenagers every day and I'm like, why
am I doing this? Why am I doing this? But anyway,
that's part of it. We'll see.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I think another thing people are really curious about when
it comes to making a big change is the practical
steps that you take. Like on the day that you
decided I'm going to go after education, do you sit
down and google it? Like how do you find your courses?
Do you sit with a partner or a mentor do
you call a fellow teacher.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's a bit because I had a three month.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Old Okay, yeah, so you don't remember anything blacked write out,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I was very very much in the thick of it,
and I was like, Okay, to make this happen, I
need to do a bridging course. So I needed to
do three English subjects that my Comms degree didn't do necessarily.
So I was like, oh, well, I'm on matt leeve,
like I'm not quitting my job just yet. I can
just kind of dip my toes into this and see
if this works. So I enrolled through an online UNI
(19:35):
that was close to where I grew up, and I
was like, okay, well, I'm just going to start and
see if this works and see how it goes with
like a three month old and a four month old. Thankfully,
it was a lot of reading books and writing essays,
and that was a muscle I hadn't used in a
very long time, and I was like, oh, I can
do this. And then because of that, I was like, yep, no,
(19:55):
this is what we will do. So I rang my
old English teacher and I was like, this is what
I'm thinking of doing. She said yes, great, rang a
couple of teacher friends, and they flagged all of the
things that you read in the news at the moment,
but also so it can be really great. I spoke
to my friends who had teacher parents. I really kind
(20:15):
of analyzed it, but I don't think I was necessarily
in my right mind. I had a three month old
and I was breastfeeding, and the hormones were really there,
and anyway, maybe that is when to make the big decisions.
Who knows. So I was like, nope, that's what we're doing.
But then I was like, hang on, you do still
have to somehow earn money to pay for your unied
(20:38):
degree and pay for the life you want to leave,
and if you're leaving Sydney, pay for things. And then
I was like, oh ah, yes, so this is where
it gets complicated. What am I going to do? And
thankfully people wanted to hire me as a podcast producer
and a freelancer. So Phoebe by that point was six
months old. We'd moved, I was full time studying, dipping
(20:58):
my toe back in kind of consulting for podcasts, and
we just kind of started creating this new life in
a new town where I knew no one, had had
no friends. I had left behind all of my friends
in Sydney who had babies the same age, and my
great mother's group and my support network, but I had
moved three hours closer to my family.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So yeah, you win some you lose them. Yeah, I'm
really glad you covered the financial aspect of it, because
I think sometimes we do skate over that when we
talk about a pivot. We talk about the motivational side,
or the fears and the doubts emotionally. But it is
a big deal to walk away from a really financially
rewarding job and go back to study. What was your
(21:38):
biggest fear? Was it the finances, was it removing the
prestige of what you were doing? For some people, it's
the new environment. Or were you just so hazy that
you were just like we.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think I was so hazy. I was like we.
And then we got here to Newcastle in May twenty
twenty four and I kind of put my head up
for air and I was like, oh, I have left
my very good, high paying job that was my entire identity.
I have moved away from all my friends, a lot
(22:14):
of who were attached to that job. I have removed
myself from my entire support network of my mother's group.
I have no income stream, I have no security blanket,
and I know nobody in Newcastle essentially apart from one friend.
So honestly, I kind of went fuck, what have I done?
(22:37):
And the first six months here were really bloody hard.
Phoebe wasn't in daycare yet, so I was studying three
subjects a trimester. I was trying to build myself a
reputation as a freelance podcast producer, consultant. Whatever you want
(22:58):
to pay me, Just someone give me some money please,
and I will.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Do And scaredmpletely scared, Yeah, because I didn't really have
anything that I had before, and I had this thing
that was fully dependent on me.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So yeah, I think that comes back to calling it
the messy middle and calling out that even pivots that
are the greatest thing that you've ever done off such
a necessary change, are really uncomfortable and hard, and often
you are questioning your decision for the first few months,
if not longer. Do you think that being a new
(23:37):
parent during that phase was a strength.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I think it was the jump I needed. As I said,
I'd been a mum of mea since I was nineteen
and I turned thirty there, Wow, I needed to get out,
and the network probably needed me to get out so
it could grow in a different direction like it has
and grow more and pivot into video and all of
these things that I couldn't have foreseen. So I think
it was probably time from everyone's part for their Perhad
(24:06):
I not had a baby, still be there, and it
probably wouldn't be right because it needed someone else with
a different direction to come in and go, right, we're
going over here now, and I'd be like, well, back
in my day, we used to do it like this, Oh,
We've always done it this way. Like I was starting
to become that person, I was like, no, we don't
do it like that. Here, we do it this way.
So it needed fresh new people to come in and
(24:27):
see things differently, and I needed that perspective on my life. Really,
the messy middle is such a perfect way to put it.
Having Phoebe was one hundred percent the push I needed
to do all of this, yeah, because it would have
been very easy to just keep going and struggle through
it and keep going and change my job and step
down from my role and go in a different direction,
(24:50):
probably still within the same company, but maybe be a
bit of that ball and chain back in my day person,
which wouldn't have been healthy for me or them. And
having my daughter kind of made the decision of my
life blowing up for me because it was already such
a big thing, you know, and it did make me
more ambitious, just in a way that would work for us,
(25:12):
the three of us as a family. So that's studying,
that's you know, taking on freelance work that I could take.
I mean, did she watch too much dancing fruit in
those days on YouTube?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Nice?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
But we got through it, and then she went to
daycare when she turned one, and that's when I kind
of came up for air and saw the light a bit,
and I was like, oh, this could work. I can
study and freelance three days a week and we're in
a really good position. And then I feel pregnant again.
Now I'm staring down the barrel of holy shit, like
(25:46):
I've finally built this good freelance career that I have.
I've got great clients, I've got a stable income finally
after a year, and I'm just going to go blow
it all up again and then hopefully six to eight
months return and be like, Hi, can you pay me again?
And can I do from work?
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It really does prove, though, that we have a lot
of fear around becoming mothers when we're career driven, ambitious people,
and what that means for our motivation, how others perceive
us our income earning capacity. And I think you often
shy away from a pivot when your life is already
(26:25):
going to change so much. But you're an amazing example that,
if anything, is kind of the best time to make
a big change because everything's in the air anyway.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Everything's in the air. I wanted to be around anyway,
like I wanted to be available. Is like putting her
in front of the TV in the best option? Probably not,
but we got through it, and I will get through
it again. Like the next turtle is my two pracks
for UNI that I have to do, so a four
week teaching back and a six week teaching brack. Wo,
How the hell do I do that with two children
(26:54):
under two? I don't know, but we'll get through it.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I believe in you. If anyone can do it, I
feel like you have spent your career practicing juggling lots
of balls.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
We'll see, we'll see that. It's the kind of like
that's next year's issue. And you know the degree technically
it's a master's of two years full time. So I've
chopped and changed, and I've added on a subject here
or there, and then I decided in January to add
society and culture to the mix as well as English teaching.
So I've added on a bit more, but hopefully by
(27:27):
twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight i've done, I'll be
in a classroom and the pivot will have taken place.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Well, Coming to your life now and what all of
this has led you to. We've talked a lot about
the shifting our identity in how we perceive ourselves, how
society perceives us, how we introduce ourselves. How now are
you introducing yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I think a bit of it is still tied to
what I do because I did re enter the podcasting
world just as a freelance producer. So you know, when
I met you, I was like, Oh, I'm working on
this podcast over here that you were just on, and
I'm working with a former colleague on her podcast, so
that when I went to Sydney for Clere Stevens's book
(28:26):
launch earlier in the months, I was like, oh, I'm
close producer. So I'm still doing a bit of that. Yeah,
And I don't know if I'll be able to really
come to terms with my identity as a teacher until
i've stepped into a classroom and I hate saying student. Yes, Like,
my obstetrician said, what do you do? And I was like, well,
I'm studying and I'm a freelancer. She's like, so you're
a student, so on your son's birth certificate it's going
(28:50):
to say student. And I was like, ugh, could we
like PEP podcasts? Like can we just say producer?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Like, I don't know, there is nothing uncol about upskilling.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
No, that's right my identity. It's a really hard question
to answer. I I'm a mom, I'm a freelancer, and
I'm a student. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I love that you're a student, and I think you
could put a marketing rebrand on that as I'm a
lifelong learner. I'm a continuous lifelong learner, which is to
be a mature age student.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, lifelong learner is nice. I'll take that.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Would you say that your approach to study has changed
since your undergraduate because one of the things I think
does make mature age students stand out is that they
are better at studying. That's why they ask good questions
because you bring this life experience of how to learn.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I thought that it would, but then I found myself
cramming and leaving things to the last minute, and then
stressing about an essay being due in two days and
I hadn't started yet. It all comes back like I thought,
I'm going to do that again. I'm going to be organized,
I'm structured. I'm a mother now like I am. I
know how to run shit, like I am tied. This
(30:08):
is going to be great. Then like call my husband
and I'm like, can you take Phoebe for the day
because I've got this essay jew and I haven't started yet.
And it's j in like two days. He's been amazing.
I've has my parents and my in laws to just
like drop everything and come down when I have left
it a bit too late. So I would like to
think that I've changed, but I haven't, which is maybe
(30:31):
just how I learn.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Maybe it's your process, you know, maybe it is. Yeah,
looking back at your time at Mamma Mea. I think
another thing we underestimate is how much we learn on
the go and how transferable the skills are from pretty
much every experience that you have, even if it doesn't
seem like it relates to the new thing you're doing
in any way. What are some of the random skills
(30:53):
you mastered that now you will find really useful in
education or in the classroom when you get there.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
I think in my first job as a writer and
a junior writer and a content producer, it was very
much how to get straight to the point, which I
do in an essay or a story. So it's like, well,
let's not fill it with fluff, what is the point
of this? What are we doing? And that's from some
of the amazing mentors I've had at Muma Meter over
the time. Obviously from an audio perspective. In a podcast perspective,
(31:22):
it's how can we use new technology to learn different things? Yeah,
so a few of my assignments have been podcasts because
I'm that great, no way, let's do that. Yeah your strengths,
Yeah exactly. So, oh god, I use my skills from
Mamma Mia every day. It makes you fast. Back in
the day we used to say move fast and break things. Yeah,
(31:43):
I was there from when it was very much a
family startup to a huge empire.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah. What advice do you have for anyone listening who
is perhaps at a similar stage as you were earlier.
They're in their dream job on paper, but they're feeling
that deep pull towards something different, And what would you
maybe say to yourself back then, jump?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, just do it yeah, because like if you're feeling
that way, you probably need to shake up your life anyway.
So just shake it up.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Oh I love that so much. Well, Lies, congratulations on
everything that you have done and in huge, huge pivot
and obviously you are thriving and have another little bub
on the way. Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Thank you, Sarah, thank you for having me back.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That's all for this episode of Pivot Club. We've got
another great story dropping next week, so make sure you're
following the show to catch it straight away. And if
this chat sparked something for you, the best way to
say thank you is to share it with a friend
or leave us a quick rating. This episode of Pivot
Club was produced by Sally Best. The executive producer is
Courtney Ammenhauser. See you same time next week. Mumma Mia
(33:04):
acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this
podcast is recorded on
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