July 19, 2024 • 28 mins
Excitement is building for the upcoming 2024 Olympic Games – but how do its elite competitors cope with the stress of performing with the eyes of the world upon them? This special episode launching series 3 of PsychTalks unpacks Dr Courtney Walton's latest research into athletes’ mental health. Hear about the strides being made in the professional care of our athlete superstars and how best to support your kid in sport.
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Episode Transcript
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Cassie (00:00):
This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri People,
the Woiwurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects
to their elders, past and present and emerging.
From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University
of Melbourne. This is PsychTalks.
(00:22):
Hi and welcome to a new series of PsychTalks created
by the University of Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences.
I'm Cassie Hayward, an Associate Professor here at the University,
and I specialise in applied psychology and behaviour change. Today
I'm joined by my co host, Professor Nick Haslam. Nick
is a social psychologist with expertise in areas of stigma,
(00:42):
psychiatric classification and mental health. How's it going, Nick?
Nick (00:46):
Very well, Thanks, Cassie. It's great to be back, and
I'm excited for what's ahead. And just like our last
series of PsychTalks, in each episode, we'll be chatting with
a psychology expert about their incredible new research,
and we'll be uncovering important insights that you can apply
in your everyday life.
Cassie (01:01):
Sounds good. And with the 2024 Olympic Games just around
the corner, we thought it would be the perfect time
to delve into the world of performance sport to help
us explore the unique challenges athletes face and how they
manage their mental health in such high pressure environments. We're
joined by Dr Courtney Walton.
(01:23):
Welcome, Courtney. Thank you for joining us for PsychTalks.
Courtney Walton (01:27):
Thanks for having me.
Cassie (01:28):
As we're gearing up for the Olympics, I think it's
interesting to reflect on how we view athletes in society,
and I think we often see them as at their
peak of physical fitness and getting sponsorship deals and all
these amazing things. So what led you to
you thinking that maybe we need to delve a bit
deeper into their mental health?
Courtney Walton (01:49):
Yes, I agree. There's been a perception that due to
maybe all of the great physical traits and kind of
physical wellness that we see, that will translate naturally into
mental health and well being, and we are getting more
and more understanding that that's not necessarily the case.
There's kind of this idea, I guess, some something I
see as almost like, um, athletes, not as people, more
(02:11):
as as kind of characters, part of like the theatre,
almost as a performance and so something I think that's
really important, really. Uh, interesting is starting to get a
sense of what's the human behind the elite athlete, the
professional athlete? And what is their mental health experience?
Nick (02:25):
Do you have any evidence for the rates of mental
health issues in this group? Is it something that most
elite athletes will have to deal with at some point?
Courtney Walton (02:34):
Yeah, we're getting better and closer, I think, to understanding
what that looks like. There's so much heterogeneity, though, that
the differences in terms of
rates vary based on all sorts of things, so that
might be in different sports, uh, in different countries, across gender. Um,
so there's all these sorts of things that can affect
what those rates look like. But broadly, where we kind
(02:56):
of see it at the moment is that elite athletes
are at similar risk, if not slightly higher, risk than
general rates in the community.
So a recent position paper had, um, they cited about
half of athletes will experience a a mental health disorder
during their career and about a third kind of currently
meeting criteria for a for a mental health disorder. So
(03:17):
that is slightly higher than what we might see in
the general population.
Nick (03:21):
But that's a remarkably high proportion, really, especially if you
buy to that idea that these are superhuman, invulnerable, um, people,
you know, as you say, barely ordinary people at all.
So what's contributing to those high rates? Is it related
to performance in terms of the pressures of performing at
high levels at all the time or constant evaluation concern
(03:45):
about what might be life after they
finish after their, um, time and the spotlight's over? Or
is it just ordinary life pressures that we all experience?
Courtney Walton (03:52):
Uh, everything you've you've just said and more really. There
are so many different things that have started to be
associated with worse mental health outcomes. Part of that is
just the human experience of things going on outside of sport.
But there there are also many things that are kind of, um,
very relevant in elite sport that tend to be
triggers or or on average, associated with worse outcomes. So
(04:16):
there's the performance part of this, so we know that
kind of going through disappointing performances, especially in the context
of things like Olympic periods, where there's a four year
build up, it's it's not week to week like, uh,
like there might be in football, for example. But then also, uh,
aspects about the the individuals, their their kind of coping mechanisms,
things that they might be doing in terms of sleep, alcohol.
(04:39):
All those kind of general factors play a big role.
And then there's there's kind of also really important things
in terms of team environments. So what do we know
about the the team context that that individual might be in,
whether they're in an individual sport or a team sport?
They're kind of embedded in an environment. And so we're
starting to focus much more on what can we do
to make those environments, healthier and more productive and promoting
(05:04):
better mental health outcomes.
Because I think even those outside of sport can probably
see historically, we've probably leaned on maybe not so helpful
strategies to try and motivate excellence and motivate, um, growth.
Maybe we can create healthier environments where athletes are actually
enjoying being there and are supported and able to thrive.
(05:25):
And that can transition into better mental health outcomes.
Nick (05:28):
Sounds like something a psychologist could help with. Yeah, exactly!
Cassie (05:31):
What are some of those differences between individual and team
sport issues? I think we can all imagine the pressure
of an individual runner or swimmer on their own event.
But then we can also imagine the pressure of a
team environment where someone might, as they would say, let
the team down. So what are some of those pressures
that athletes face in those different kind of modes of performing?
Courtney Walton (05:56):
Yeah, I know i t's probably a frustrating answer with all
of these. There's always an 'it depends' in terms of
the athlete and how they process their experience essentially. But
we can say that on average we tend to see
athletes in individual sports having worse mental health outcomes than
those in team sports. And then there's probably a few
different reasons for that. But one of the things that
(06:17):
comes out over and over in in all the research
that we've done and others have done is a role
of of
social support. And feeling supported in those environments is critical,
and so typically not always, but but often people in
a in a kind of healthy team environment will have
more of those supports than maybe, as you say, someone in
(06:37):
an individual sport who's spending a lot of time, maybe
more in isolation or when they are with other athletes,
it's maybe with competitors or people they are competing for
a position, rather than teammates.
And so that's kind of an important thing that plays
out in the in the individual and team sport aspect.
Cassie (06:53):
And do you see are coaches and teams and sporting
institutes set up to help athletes with their mental health
and provide that support? Is it getting better or have
we still got a way to go with that type
of training and preparation for athletes?
Courtney Walton (07:10):
We're definitely getting a lot better. I would say you know,
I'm relatively young, so I can only speak to to
what I kind of, um am familiar with. But it
seems like things are growing and changing really rapidly in
terms of people's understanding and awareness and and respect for
this as being an important thing to focus on. And
(07:30):
I think a lot of that's probably happened due to
the kind of public nature of of some people's experiences.
You know, there's been some
prominent athletes who've spoken about their experience very openly, and
I think that's really pushed things, um, in a positive way,
but generally it it does feel like, um, at least here,
in the Australian context, most most professional sports and elite
(07:51):
sports are really trying to do what they can to
create better environments and to try and find ways
to support athletes when they are experiencing difficulty.
Cassie (08:01):
What are the best things that they can do? What
does your research say is kind of best practise for
those types of teams and sports centres? What should they
be doing?
Courtney Walton (08:12):
Yes, so a big part of that is around having
systems in place to know how to respond when there
are
difficulties coming up. And so we're seeing much more of
a push towards having mental health professionals, typically psychologists embedded
within sports environments so that they actually have someone there
who can manage these things and knows best practise ways
(08:35):
to to respond because not that long ago, that would
fall on the coach, uh, to do those sorts of things.
We're also kind of seeing, there's a real, um, value
on having clear external referral pathways.
Very often, athletes will say, Well, there is a psychologist
in my team or the organisation, but I don't wanna
speak to them. I'd rather get a get a referral
(08:57):
to to go somewhere else away from my sport. Um,
other athletes will say the complete opposite. So again it depends,
but having access so that athletes can access. OK, is
there someone in this environment who can support me or
if I don't feel comfortable, is there somewhere externally that
I can go to be supported.
So that that's kind of in terms of the response
(09:19):
part of this in terms of helping people when maybe
the distress is already occurring. But there's also much more
we can be doing in terms of, as I said,
trying to make environments where maybe mental ill health is
less likely to be occurring. Um, and I think that's
where there's there's lots of work there to do to
figure out just how to do that effectively.
Nick (09:38):
Concretely, what do you think could be done more at
this point, based on what we now know from the
sort of science you do.
Courtney Walton (09:44):
Well, I'll come, I'll come at it from two ways.
One of the things that, um, we're really interested in
is understanding this concept of psychological safety in elite sport. Um,
it's It's kind of an an area that I think
there's a lot of relevance here in terms of actively
creating environments where one
kind of psychological harms or or kind of negative behaviours
(10:07):
are being reduced, are being, um, called out and cut
out and removed from these environments, but also where we're
starting to explicitly help people in terms of things like
mental health literacy, so that they can understand better what is, um,
anxiety about my game on the weekend?
What is high stress, because of, um, the pressure that
(10:28):
I'm facing at the moment. And what is signs of
a of a depressive episode, right, so that we can
start to separate those things. That's that's a really difficult
thing to do for psychologists, let alone coaches and athletes,
and then also starting to affect things like help seeking
pathways and and stigma reduction in those in those environments.
Because that's often been a really key barrier that people
(10:49):
have spoken about is
yeah, I had this experience for years, but I didn't
think I could talk to anyone about it because I'm
gonna lose my spot in the team or, um I'm
not gonna be seen as tough enough. Resilient enough. And
then then how am I gonna be viewed by others?
So I think that is starting to change. But it is,
of course, still there to some extent. And then I
(11:10):
think in terms of the the finding, um, ways to
have people who are well equipped to deal with this
embedded in the environment more is critical.
So I actually think Australia is quite good at this,
But I'm I'm often shocked seeing overseas job advertisements for
Head of Psychology at a at a leading Premier League
club or something one day a week for for, you know,
(11:33):
25,000 pounds or so or something like a very, very
low salary relative to to what's required to do that job.
Um and so this is kind of
I see a bit of a problem where, um there
there's not maybe the emphasis placed on this that we
would put on strength and conditioning and physiotherapy and and
every other area of of, um, supporting athletes, so trying
(11:57):
to invest more and and I'm aware of my bias
because I am one of these psychologists. But I, I
do think, um, trying to make it more fundamental and
more embedded part of these environments.
Cassie (12:08):
And just going back to something you said about teaching
athletes about stress and anxiety. I guess the other challenge
there is some of that they need to perform right.
You have to have some level of anxiousness or stress
about an event. So is it also about teaching them
what's the right amount or the right type of stress
to be feeling and where it might tip over into
(12:30):
something that they might need some help with?
Courtney Walton (12:32):
Definitely, um, I think that's a really validating and important
part of that work is understanding many of these experiences
are expected. You know, it's it's a kind of normal
human response to the situation that you're in, and I
think that's why it's often very important for people doing
that work to have the understanding of elite sport environments
(12:55):
and these contexts, because any kind of intervention or any
kind of work that you're doing with an athlete needs
to
count for the fact that they're in an incredibly unique
and unusual environment that's maybe not that, um, applicable to
to other contexts. And so, yeah, all of that work
around managing stress and anxiety is very different when it's
(13:16):
well, yeah, taking a penalty in front of hundreds of
millions of viewers is going to cause some significant anxiety
Nick (13:27):
That'd be always as bad as giving a lecture.
Courtney Walton (13:31):
Some might say it's easier than giving a lecture.
Cassie (13:35):
Courtney, so far we've been talking about elite adult athletes,
you know, preparing for the for the Olympics or whatever
or taking a penalty shot. But I know you've also
looked at the challenges of elite youth athletes and some
of the challenges that that can bring up. Do you
want to tell us a little bit about the research
you've done in that youth space?
Courtney Walton (13:53):
Yeah, So I became really interested in this because I
guess I was kind of aware that there's this growing,
you know, pretty significant body of research now looking at
elite athlete mental health. And there's always been a pretty
good body of research looking at mental health in kind
of community, sport and and, um,
youth sport that's maybe more participation focused, community focused and
(14:16):
and all of the kind of positive things that come
from that. And there's kind of this, um, gap in
the middle, almost of young people who are involved in
youth sport but at a very high level, very competitive.
And what does their mental health look like? And so
that's some research that I'm doing with with some collaborators
over at the University of Toronto, and we're doing that
at the moment, to to kind of work with elite
(14:37):
youth athletes to understand,
what do they feel? We're trying to really put them
at the centre of that research. And what do they
really feel like we need to be researching? What are
the things that are most important to them? And so
a lot of the kind of early things that are
coming out are around, similar to what we're talking about,
educating people in those environments to help them. So coach education,
Um, having people like mental health champions in those environments.
(15:01):
But in in terms of that research more broadly or
or that kind of area more broadly, there's a really
interesting paper that just came out a couple of weeks ago,
looking at kind of high level Australian Football League youth
players and then comparing them on a whole range of
outcomes to community sport,
um, and basically showing that the the high level talent
(15:22):
development pathway athletes are doing better on on most measures. Um,
which is really interesting, I think, and and probably speaks
to the fact that, yes, they're exposed to incredible pressure,
a lot of demands, but they're also really well supported.
So kids in those pathways or adolescents in those pathways
are getting great speakers coming in. They're getting referral pathways.
(15:46):
They're doing workshops. They're they're kind of getting everything that
they need at least, maybe more than than others. And
that can probably act as a really important protective factor
for for those young people as well.
Nick (15:57):
So that's a success story. Maybe with the AFL. Um,
do you think youth sporting organisations in general are getting
the message? Are they recognising the importance of mental health? Um,
for young athletes? Or do you think there are some
shortcomings in how they're doing that?
Courtney Walton (16:12):
I think so. I feel like generally in our community,
where the the focus on youth mental health is really prominent,
and the impression I get is that youth sports clubs
are trying to do and want to do the best
that they can to to support young people. I think
the hard thing is, how do they do it? A
lot of those, especially Community Sports Club,
(16:32):
they're not necessarily well funded. They're relying on a lot of, um,
volunteering from parents, from so on. And so adding this
incredibly complex and difficult thing to their responsibilities to their
requirements is difficult. And so I think at the moment
there's a there's lots going on in terms of the
research to understand, How can we better support these clubs
(16:55):
to support young people? Um, because it's such a important
opportunity. There's there's I can't remember the rates off the
top of my head. But there are a lot of
young people involved in sports clubs, Um, and so it's
a really great kind of intervention option. And so it's
just about trying to make sure that they have the
resources and the best placed evidence to
(17:17):
do that. And one of the kind of really difficult
things um on that that we're seeing is there are
so many people now offering mental health training workshops. Um,
and very, very few of them are evidence based. And
that's really hard, because then you're you're putting that on
coaches, parents, uh, clubs to figure out. Should these people
(17:38):
come and and give a workshop for our kids, or
should we do it with them or with them? And
so that can be a really difficult thing to do.
Nick (17:45):
So that's some sort of resource limitations. I mean, are
there also some cultural ones? So are there still people
out there who think, uh, this is all unnecessary, It's
making people soft. It's excusing mediocrity. Uh, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Uh,
is that still a factor?
Courtney Walton (18:02):
Yeah. Uh, I think there definitely is an element of that. Um,
but I think I think that's changing. And I think
that's probably a generational change as well. There's an element of,
you know, in sport you tend to see this pattern
of players, and then they have it a certain way,
and then they become coaches, and then they coach it
the way that they had it. That's where a lot
of those attitudes can sometimes happen because through no fault of
their own, a lot of those coaches had that experience themselves. Uh,
(18:25):
whereas now there's a lot more players coming in
and saying, Well, actually, maybe we could do things a
little bit differently and I want to take that into
to the way that I lead and the way that
I coach, so I I can certainly see that over
time starting to change
Nick (18:38):
One thing, Uh, we haven't gone into If you don't
mind a very brief tangent, we haven't really talked about
whether there are differences for female and male athletes through
any of this and how and especially in the youth context,
do you see differences in the approaches that work or
that are tried?
Differences in the level of investment, differences in the receptivity
of the athletes to these sort of interventions?
Courtney Walton (19:00):
Yes, so there's definitely gender differences that come out in
a lot of this research. So I did some research
a couple of years ago that looked at essentially differences
in mental ill health and exposure to
kind of negative experiences in sport. And for the most part,
I guess the broad summary was that women athletes tended
to to report, um being exposed to more negative events
(19:25):
and reporting worse mental health. We did a review recently,
looking at, uh, disordered eating and eating disorders in elite
youth athletes. And again,
um, there was a a much bigger focus on young girls,
but also that being kind of coming through as a
bit of a risk factor. In terms of like investment,
that's hard to say. I actually think there's probably quite a,
(19:46):
um maybe I'm I have just noticed more of the
investment into to working with young boys in sport, and
I think probably part of that is is trying to
make use of that environment as a really good space
to try and teach young boys a little bit more
about mental health and help seeking, try and break down
some of those, um, those kind of gender norms that
(20:07):
we can tend to see.
So that's where I think there's there is kind of
a lot of that focus on on young men, um,
and their mental health and sport as a kind of
vehicle to try and try and change things but broadly
in elite sport. And and this kind of typically speaks
to the fact that
in most sports, women athletes are just facing more barriers. Um,
(20:29):
and so you know we've done research with with women
in a range of different sports who say, Well, you know,
we're professional and so we have professional expectations. But my
salary is not professional and my supports aren't professional.
um but people expect me to go out there and
and put this performance, that's not matched with what I
see the men's team getting. And so that leads to
(20:52):
a whole bunch of risk factors that can contribute to
mental ill health in terms of balancing different demands, financial, um, security. Um,
so those sorts of things definitely play out in the
gender differences.
Cassie (21:05):
What about what parents can do for youth athletes? And,
I guess, speaking on a range of youth athletes there,
from participation in community sport through to high performing young athletes.
People might have seen the Italian tennis player Jannik Sinner thank
his parents for not pushing him too much into tennis
and letting him enjoy different
(21:25):
sports. Whereas I think when we think of tennis parents,
we think of those very stereotypical kind of pushing their
kids into tennis or dance moms or whatever the stereotype is.
But are there things that parents can do to help
let their kids enjoy sport and pursue the high performance
path if they want, but do it in a way
that's healthy for them mentally?
Courtney Walton (21:47):
Yeah, it's such a hard one. I'm always aware that
I'm not a parent, so I don't have to face
a lot of these difficulties, But,
um, essentially, it is around trying to lean in on
all of the positive things that parents can do to
support young people in sport. So over and over and
over again, you see research or you hear from from
(22:09):
young people involved in sport, 'the pressure placed on me
through the things that my parents say, the things that
the parents my parents do' makes sport unenjoyable leads to
a whole bunch of negative kind of ways that we
we view ourselves going forward. You know, they cause a
lot of a lot of difficulty for young people, whereas
(22:31):
they also identify that parents can do all of these
amazing things in terms of supporting, um, facilitating. Um and
so it really does come down to as a parent,
can you find that balance between supporting young people, encouraging them,
showing them interest? Um, I care about your sport I
(22:51):
want you to do
to do, to do well and I'm going to enjoy it. Um,
but I'm not so invested in the outcomes that how
I perceive you is gonna change based on wins and
losses and and things like that. Because I think you
could go the other way, right? You see, the very, um,
overly involved parents,
but then also being completely detached and uninterested and uninvolved
(23:12):
is is a kind of different level of, uh, kind
of different side of difficult parenting and sport, so that
that would be the main thing. I know that's not
a nice and easy fix, but it is really about
just trying to support rather than dominate.
Cassie (23:26):
So letting them pursue their interests and supporting them in
that way.
Courtney Walton (23:30):
Yeah, And there's, you know, there's there's really very little evidence
that that kids going all out on one sport from
an early age is gonna lead to to benefits, beneficial outcomes.
In fact, it's more just associated with injury, with burnout
and with disengagement
with sport. So where possible encouraging, encouraging kids to do
(23:52):
a range of sports, the things that they wanna do,
that they're interested in, instead of getting too bogged down
in that kind of single minded focus on on one
sport from an early age.
Nick (24:02):
So at the time of recording, the Olympics is coming up, uh,
at breathtaking speed. Uh, and we're all gonna sit back
and enjoy it and watch lots of Aussie gold. Um,
et cetera. Um, is there anything we can do as
sport consumers to contribute to the mental health of athletes? Um,
I'm sure many athletes get negative press, negative social media comments.
(24:23):
I'm sure that does a great deal of harm. In fact,
I know you've done some research showing, uh, it does harm.
Is there anything else besides avoiding, um, negative commentary, uh,
that we can do as spectators and consumers?
Courtney Walton (24:37):
I don't know if anything jumps to mind outside of that,
but I do think that the central part of that
is really important, is the social media side. Um, we
see it every major tournament, every Olympics, um, the Euros
are on at the moment with the football, and, um,
I admit to being an England fan, but, uh, four
(24:57):
years ago, we lost it.
England lost in the in the final, uh, in a
penalty shoot out and the abuse that those players received,
a lot of it racial, was just horrendous, like just awful.
And so every kind of time this comes around, I
(25:18):
think it it is worth flagging and really emphasising the
role that, you know,
you can just imagine the the amount of, um, comments
and notifications and negative feedback that that people are receiving
and so really trying to change and challenge that approach.
And a lot of that comes down to I think,
what I said at the beginning that I think it's
(25:39):
very easy for us to fall into viewing the Olympics
and and these things as entertainment, which it is, um
but forget. But they they are not characters. They are
real people,
um, and so trying to change the way that we
talk about athletes, Um, whether that's through social media, whether
that's just the way that we talk in groups as
(26:00):
though um, disappointment at the Olympics is an incredibly difficult
experience for someone that's dedicated almost everything to that for
four years, adding on top of that a whole bunch of
pile-on and and kind of criticism because,
you know, we see this getting worse now because of gambling,
for example. Right, so people are gambling on sports and
(26:21):
then they lose. They lose. And and that's then the
athletes fault. And so we see a lot of, um,
criticism coming through that piece as well.
Um, so that would be my main thing. My main
thing is, is trying to change the way that we
talk about athletes.
Cassie (26:37):
Do you think clubs have a responsibility to manage those
social media channels, or is it about advising athletes not
to read it? I think a lot of those social
media channels and platforms can be a pretty toxic space
for anyone. But you can imagine the the impact it
would have on an athlete. What's the advice to athletes
around that?
Courtney Walton (26:56):
So difficult. A piece of research, I can't remember who
it was, so I apologise. But qualitative research and athletes
talking about, well,
I can't avoid social media because I'm relying on my
sponsorships to pay my bills, and I have to be
on social media. I have to do XYZ, and so
it's very difficult to just disengage and avoid avoid it
(27:19):
because it's now just a fundamental part
of your brand as an athlete, especially in things like
Olympic sports, where there isn't as much funding as as
professional athletes. So, yeah, it's it's difficult. I think there is, um,
more and more focus on educating athletes, and coaches who
who we haven't mentioned, but, um, on how to navigate
(27:42):
all of that.
Um, but it's very difficult, as it is we're seeing
with with just young people generally and all of us
really in in navigating social media.
Cassie (27:50):
Amazing stuff. Courtney, um, we have to wrap up now
so I can get to my second job as a
soccer mum. But, um, thank you so much for talking
with us today. And I think everyone listening can maybe
go into watching the Olympics with a little bit more
compassion for our athletes now. So thank you so much
for sharing your work with us.
Courtney Walton (28:07):
Thanks for having me.
Nick (28:09):
You've been listening to PsychTalks with me Nick Haslam and
Cassie Hayward. We'd like to thank our guests for today,
Dr Courtney Walton. This episode was produced by Carly Godden
with production assistance from Mairead Murray and Gemma Papprill. Our
sound engineer was Elise Bradshaw. Thanks for tuning in and
we're excited to bring you more episodes of PsychTalks in
this new series. So watch this space. Bye for now.
This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri People,
the Woiwurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects
to their elders, past and present and emerging.
From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University
of Melbourne. This is PsychTalks.
(00:22):
Hi and welcome to a new series of PsychTalks created
by the University of Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences.
I'm Cassie Hayward, an Associate Professor here at the University,
and I specialise in applied psychology and behaviour change. Today
I'm joined by my co host, Professor Nick Haslam. Nick
is a social psychologist with expertise in areas of stigma,
(00:42):
psychiatric classification and mental health. How's it going, Nick?
Nick (00:46):
Very well, Thanks, Cassie. It's great to be back, and
I'm excited for what's ahead. And just like our last
series of PsychTalks, in each episode, we'll be chatting with
a psychology expert about their incredible new research,
and we'll be uncovering important insights that you can apply
in your everyday life.
Cassie (01:01):
Sounds good. And with the 2024 Olympic Games just around
the corner, we thought it would be the perfect time
to delve into the world of performance sport to help
us explore the unique challenges athletes face and how they
manage their mental health in such high pressure environments. We're
joined by Dr Courtney Walton.
(01:23):
Welcome, Courtney. Thank you for joining us for PsychTalks.
Courtney Walton (01:27):
Thanks for having me.
Cassie (01:28):
As we're gearing up for the Olympics, I think it's
interesting to reflect on how we view athletes in society,
and I think we often see them as at their
peak of physical fitness and getting sponsorship deals and all
these amazing things. So what led you to
you thinking that maybe we need to delve a bit
deeper into their mental health?
Courtney Walton (01:49):
Yes, I agree. There's been a perception that due to
maybe all of the great physical traits and kind of
physical wellness that we see, that will translate naturally into
mental health and well being, and we are getting more
and more understanding that that's not necessarily the case.
There's kind of this idea, I guess, some something I
see as almost like, um, athletes, not as people, more
(02:11):
as as kind of characters, part of like the theatre,
almost as a performance and so something I think that's
really important, really. Uh, interesting is starting to get a
sense of what's the human behind the elite athlete, the
professional athlete? And what is their mental health experience?
Nick (02:25):
Do you have any evidence for the rates of mental
health issues in this group? Is it something that most
elite athletes will have to deal with at some point?
Courtney Walton (02:34):
Yeah, we're getting better and closer, I think, to understanding
what that looks like. There's so much heterogeneity, though, that
the differences in terms of
rates vary based on all sorts of things, so that
might be in different sports, uh, in different countries, across gender. Um,
so there's all these sorts of things that can affect
what those rates look like. But broadly, where we kind
(02:56):
of see it at the moment is that elite athletes
are at similar risk, if not slightly higher, risk than
general rates in the community.
So a recent position paper had, um, they cited about
half of athletes will experience a a mental health disorder
during their career and about a third kind of currently
meeting criteria for a for a mental health disorder. So
(03:17):
that is slightly higher than what we might see in
the general population.
Nick (03:21):
But that's a remarkably high proportion, really, especially if you
buy to that idea that these are superhuman, invulnerable, um, people,
you know, as you say, barely ordinary people at all.
So what's contributing to those high rates? Is it related
to performance in terms of the pressures of performing at
high levels at all the time or constant evaluation concern
(03:45):
about what might be life after they
finish after their, um, time and the spotlight's over? Or
is it just ordinary life pressures that we all experience?
Courtney Walton (03:52):
Uh, everything you've you've just said and more really. There
are so many different things that have started to be
associated with worse mental health outcomes. Part of that is
just the human experience of things going on outside of sport.
But there there are also many things that are kind of, um,
very relevant in elite sport that tend to be
triggers or or on average, associated with worse outcomes. So
(04:16):
there's the performance part of this, so we know that
kind of going through disappointing performances, especially in the context
of things like Olympic periods, where there's a four year
build up, it's it's not week to week like, uh,
like there might be in football, for example. But then also, uh,
aspects about the the individuals, their their kind of coping mechanisms,
things that they might be doing in terms of sleep, alcohol.
(04:39):
All those kind of general factors play a big role.
And then there's there's kind of also really important things
in terms of team environments. So what do we know
about the the team context that that individual might be in,
whether they're in an individual sport or a team sport?
They're kind of embedded in an environment. And so we're
starting to focus much more on what can we do
to make those environments, healthier and more productive and promoting
(05:04):
better mental health outcomes.
Because I think even those outside of sport can probably
see historically, we've probably leaned on maybe not so helpful
strategies to try and motivate excellence and motivate, um, growth.
Maybe we can create healthier environments where athletes are actually
enjoying being there and are supported and able to thrive.
(05:25):
And that can transition into better mental health outcomes.
Nick (05:28):
Sounds like something a psychologist could help with. Yeah, exactly!
Cassie (05:31):
What are some of those differences between individual and team
sport issues? I think we can all imagine the pressure
of an individual runner or swimmer on their own event.
But then we can also imagine the pressure of a
team environment where someone might, as they would say, let
the team down. So what are some of those pressures
that athletes face in those different kind of modes of performing?
Courtney Walton (05:56):
Yeah, I know i t's probably a frustrating answer with all
of these. There's always an 'it depends' in terms of
the athlete and how they process their experience essentially. But
we can say that on average we tend to see
athletes in individual sports having worse mental health outcomes than
those in team sports. And then there's probably a few
different reasons for that. But one of the things that
(06:17):
comes out over and over in in all the research
that we've done and others have done is a role
of of
social support. And feeling supported in those environments is critical,
and so typically not always, but but often people in
a in a kind of healthy team environment will have
more of those supports than maybe, as you say, someone in
(06:37):
an individual sport who's spending a lot of time, maybe
more in isolation or when they are with other athletes,
it's maybe with competitors or people they are competing for
a position, rather than teammates.
And so that's kind of an important thing that plays
out in the in the individual and team sport aspect.
Cassie (06:53):
And do you see are coaches and teams and sporting
institutes set up to help athletes with their mental health
and provide that support? Is it getting better or have
we still got a way to go with that type
of training and preparation for athletes?
Courtney Walton (07:10):
We're definitely getting a lot better. I would say you know,
I'm relatively young, so I can only speak to to
what I kind of, um am familiar with. But it
seems like things are growing and changing really rapidly in
terms of people's understanding and awareness and and respect for
this as being an important thing to focus on. And
(07:30):
I think a lot of that's probably happened due to
the kind of public nature of of some people's experiences.
You know, there's been some
prominent athletes who've spoken about their experience very openly, and
I think that's really pushed things, um, in a positive way,
but generally it it does feel like, um, at least here,
in the Australian context, most most professional sports and elite
(07:51):
sports are really trying to do what they can to
create better environments and to try and find ways
to support athletes when they are experiencing difficulty.
Cassie (08:01):
What are the best things that they can do? What
does your research say is kind of best practise for
those types of teams and sports centres? What should they
be doing?
Courtney Walton (08:12):
Yes, so a big part of that is around having
systems in place to know how to respond when there
are
difficulties coming up. And so we're seeing much more of
a push towards having mental health professionals, typically psychologists embedded
within sports environments so that they actually have someone there
who can manage these things and knows best practise ways
(08:35):
to to respond because not that long ago, that would
fall on the coach, uh, to do those sorts of things.
We're also kind of seeing, there's a real, um, value
on having clear external referral pathways.
Very often, athletes will say, Well, there is a psychologist
in my team or the organisation, but I don't wanna
speak to them. I'd rather get a get a referral
(08:57):
to to go somewhere else away from my sport. Um,
other athletes will say the complete opposite. So again it depends,
but having access so that athletes can access. OK, is
there someone in this environment who can support me or
if I don't feel comfortable, is there somewhere externally that
I can go to be supported.
So that that's kind of in terms of the response
(09:19):
part of this in terms of helping people when maybe
the distress is already occurring. But there's also much more
we can be doing in terms of, as I said,
trying to make environments where maybe mental ill health is
less likely to be occurring. Um, and I think that's
where there's there's lots of work there to do to
figure out just how to do that effectively.
Nick (09:38):
Concretely, what do you think could be done more at
this point, based on what we now know from the
sort of science you do.
Courtney Walton (09:44):
Well, I'll come, I'll come at it from two ways.
One of the things that, um, we're really interested in
is understanding this concept of psychological safety in elite sport. Um,
it's It's kind of an an area that I think
there's a lot of relevance here in terms of actively
creating environments where one
kind of psychological harms or or kind of negative behaviours
(10:07):
are being reduced, are being, um, called out and cut
out and removed from these environments, but also where we're
starting to explicitly help people in terms of things like
mental health literacy, so that they can understand better what is, um,
anxiety about my game on the weekend?
What is high stress, because of, um, the pressure that
(10:28):
I'm facing at the moment. And what is signs of
a of a depressive episode, right, so that we can
start to separate those things. That's that's a really difficult
thing to do for psychologists, let alone coaches and athletes,
and then also starting to affect things like help seeking
pathways and and stigma reduction in those in those environments.
Because that's often been a really key barrier that people
(10:49):
have spoken about is
yeah, I had this experience for years, but I didn't
think I could talk to anyone about it because I'm
gonna lose my spot in the team or, um I'm
not gonna be seen as tough enough. Resilient enough. And
then then how am I gonna be viewed by others?
So I think that is starting to change. But it is,
of course, still there to some extent. And then I
(11:10):
think in terms of the the finding, um, ways to
have people who are well equipped to deal with this
embedded in the environment more is critical.
So I actually think Australia is quite good at this,
But I'm I'm often shocked seeing overseas job advertisements for
Head of Psychology at a at a leading Premier League
club or something one day a week for for, you know,
(11:33):
25,000 pounds or so or something like a very, very
low salary relative to to what's required to do that job.
Um and so this is kind of
I see a bit of a problem where, um there
there's not maybe the emphasis placed on this that we
would put on strength and conditioning and physiotherapy and and
every other area of of, um, supporting athletes, so trying
(11:57):
to invest more and and I'm aware of my bias
because I am one of these psychologists. But I, I
do think, um, trying to make it more fundamental and
more embedded part of these environments.
Cassie (12:08):
And just going back to something you said about teaching
athletes about stress and anxiety. I guess the other challenge
there is some of that they need to perform right.
You have to have some level of anxiousness or stress
about an event. So is it also about teaching them
what's the right amount or the right type of stress
to be feeling and where it might tip over into
(12:30):
something that they might need some help with?
Courtney Walton (12:32):
Definitely, um, I think that's a really validating and important
part of that work is understanding many of these experiences
are expected. You know, it's it's a kind of normal
human response to the situation that you're in, and I
think that's why it's often very important for people doing
that work to have the understanding of elite sport environments
(12:55):
and these contexts, because any kind of intervention or any
kind of work that you're doing with an athlete needs
to
count for the fact that they're in an incredibly unique
and unusual environment that's maybe not that, um, applicable to
to other contexts. And so, yeah, all of that work
around managing stress and anxiety is very different when it's
(13:16):
well, yeah, taking a penalty in front of hundreds of
millions of viewers is going to cause some significant anxiety
Nick (13:27):
That'd be always as bad as giving a lecture.
Courtney Walton (13:31):
Some might say it's easier than giving a lecture.
Cassie (13:35):
Courtney, so far we've been talking about elite adult athletes,
you know, preparing for the for the Olympics or whatever
or taking a penalty shot. But I know you've also
looked at the challenges of elite youth athletes and some
of the challenges that that can bring up. Do you
want to tell us a little bit about the research
you've done in that youth space?
Courtney Walton (13:53):
Yeah, So I became really interested in this because I
guess I was kind of aware that there's this growing,
you know, pretty significant body of research now looking at
elite athlete mental health. And there's always been a pretty
good body of research looking at mental health in kind
of community, sport and and, um,
youth sport that's maybe more participation focused, community focused and
(14:16):
and all of the kind of positive things that come
from that. And there's kind of this, um, gap in
the middle, almost of young people who are involved in
youth sport but at a very high level, very competitive.
And what does their mental health look like? And so
that's some research that I'm doing with with some collaborators
over at the University of Toronto, and we're doing that
at the moment, to to kind of work with elite
(14:37):
youth athletes to understand,
what do they feel? We're trying to really put them
at the centre of that research. And what do they
really feel like we need to be researching? What are
the things that are most important to them? And so
a lot of the kind of early things that are
coming out are around, similar to what we're talking about,
educating people in those environments to help them. So coach education,
Um, having people like mental health champions in those environments.
(15:01):
But in in terms of that research more broadly or
or that kind of area more broadly, there's a really
interesting paper that just came out a couple of weeks ago,
looking at kind of high level Australian Football League youth
players and then comparing them on a whole range of
outcomes to community sport,
um, and basically showing that the the high level talent
(15:22):
development pathway athletes are doing better on on most measures. Um,
which is really interesting, I think, and and probably speaks
to the fact that, yes, they're exposed to incredible pressure,
a lot of demands, but they're also really well supported.
So kids in those pathways or adolescents in those pathways
are getting great speakers coming in. They're getting referral pathways.
(15:46):
They're doing workshops. They're they're kind of getting everything that
they need at least, maybe more than than others. And
that can probably act as a really important protective factor
for for those young people as well.
Nick (15:57):
So that's a success story. Maybe with the AFL. Um,
do you think youth sporting organisations in general are getting
the message? Are they recognising the importance of mental health? Um,
for young athletes? Or do you think there are some
shortcomings in how they're doing that?
Courtney Walton (16:12):
I think so. I feel like generally in our community,
where the the focus on youth mental health is really prominent,
and the impression I get is that youth sports clubs
are trying to do and want to do the best
that they can to to support young people. I think
the hard thing is, how do they do it? A
lot of those, especially Community Sports Club,
(16:32):
they're not necessarily well funded. They're relying on a lot of, um,
volunteering from parents, from so on. And so adding this
incredibly complex and difficult thing to their responsibilities to their
requirements is difficult. And so I think at the moment
there's a there's lots going on in terms of the
research to understand, How can we better support these clubs
(16:55):
to support young people? Um, because it's such a important
opportunity. There's there's I can't remember the rates off the
top of my head. But there are a lot of
young people involved in sports clubs, Um, and so it's
a really great kind of intervention option. And so it's
just about trying to make sure that they have the
resources and the best placed evidence to
(17:17):
do that. And one of the kind of really difficult
things um on that that we're seeing is there are
so many people now offering mental health training workshops. Um,
and very, very few of them are evidence based. And
that's really hard, because then you're you're putting that on
coaches, parents, uh, clubs to figure out. Should these people
(17:38):
come and and give a workshop for our kids, or
should we do it with them or with them? And
so that can be a really difficult thing to do.
Nick (17:45):
So that's some sort of resource limitations. I mean, are
there also some cultural ones? So are there still people
out there who think, uh, this is all unnecessary, It's
making people soft. It's excusing mediocrity. Uh, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Uh,
is that still a factor?
Courtney Walton (18:02):
Yeah. Uh, I think there definitely is an element of that. Um,
but I think I think that's changing. And I think
that's probably a generational change as well. There's an element of,
you know, in sport you tend to see this pattern
of players, and then they have it a certain way,
and then they become coaches, and then they coach it
the way that they had it. That's where a lot
of those attitudes can sometimes happen because through no fault of
their own, a lot of those coaches had that experience themselves. Uh,
(18:25):
whereas now there's a lot more players coming in
and saying, Well, actually, maybe we could do things a
little bit differently and I want to take that into
to the way that I lead and the way that
I coach, so I I can certainly see that over
time starting to change
Nick (18:38):
One thing, Uh, we haven't gone into If you don't
mind a very brief tangent, we haven't really talked about
whether there are differences for female and male athletes through
any of this and how and especially in the youth context,
do you see differences in the approaches that work or
that are tried?
Differences in the level of investment, differences in the receptivity
of the athletes to these sort of interventions?
Courtney Walton (19:00):
Yes, so there's definitely gender differences that come out in
a lot of this research. So I did some research
a couple of years ago that looked at essentially differences
in mental ill health and exposure to
kind of negative experiences in sport. And for the most part,
I guess the broad summary was that women athletes tended
to to report, um being exposed to more negative events
(19:25):
and reporting worse mental health. We did a review recently,
looking at, uh, disordered eating and eating disorders in elite
youth athletes. And again,
um, there was a a much bigger focus on young girls,
but also that being kind of coming through as a
bit of a risk factor. In terms of like investment,
that's hard to say. I actually think there's probably quite a,
(19:46):
um maybe I'm I have just noticed more of the
investment into to working with young boys in sport, and
I think probably part of that is is trying to
make use of that environment as a really good space
to try and teach young boys a little bit more
about mental health and help seeking, try and break down
some of those, um, those kind of gender norms that
(20:07):
we can tend to see.
So that's where I think there's there is kind of
a lot of that focus on on young men, um,
and their mental health and sport as a kind of
vehicle to try and try and change things but broadly
in elite sport. And and this kind of typically speaks
to the fact that
in most sports, women athletes are just facing more barriers. Um,
(20:29):
and so you know we've done research with with women
in a range of different sports who say, Well, you know,
we're professional and so we have professional expectations. But my
salary is not professional and my supports aren't professional.
um but people expect me to go out there and
and put this performance, that's not matched with what I
see the men's team getting. And so that leads to
(20:52):
a whole bunch of risk factors that can contribute to
mental ill health in terms of balancing different demands, financial, um, security. Um,
so those sorts of things definitely play out in the
gender differences.
Cassie (21:05):
What about what parents can do for youth athletes? And,
I guess, speaking on a range of youth athletes there,
from participation in community sport through to high performing young athletes.
People might have seen the Italian tennis player Jannik Sinner thank
his parents for not pushing him too much into tennis
and letting him enjoy different
(21:25):
sports. Whereas I think when we think of tennis parents,
we think of those very stereotypical kind of pushing their
kids into tennis or dance moms or whatever the stereotype is.
But are there things that parents can do to help
let their kids enjoy sport and pursue the high performance
path if they want, but do it in a way
that's healthy for them mentally?
Courtney Walton (21:47):
Yeah, it's such a hard one. I'm always aware that
I'm not a parent, so I don't have to face
a lot of these difficulties, But,
um, essentially, it is around trying to lean in on
all of the positive things that parents can do to
support young people in sport. So over and over and
over again, you see research or you hear from from
(22:09):
young people involved in sport, 'the pressure placed on me
through the things that my parents say, the things that
the parents my parents do' makes sport unenjoyable leads to
a whole bunch of negative kind of ways that we
we view ourselves going forward. You know, they cause a
lot of a lot of difficulty for young people, whereas
(22:31):
they also identify that parents can do all of these
amazing things in terms of supporting, um, facilitating. Um and
so it really does come down to as a parent,
can you find that balance between supporting young people, encouraging them,
showing them interest? Um, I care about your sport I
(22:51):
want you to do
to do, to do well and I'm going to enjoy it. Um,
but I'm not so invested in the outcomes that how
I perceive you is gonna change based on wins and
losses and and things like that. Because I think you
could go the other way, right? You see, the very, um,
overly involved parents,
but then also being completely detached and uninterested and uninvolved
(23:12):
is is a kind of different level of, uh, kind
of different side of difficult parenting and sport, so that
that would be the main thing. I know that's not
a nice and easy fix, but it is really about
just trying to support rather than dominate.
Cassie (23:26):
So letting them pursue their interests and supporting them in
that way.
Courtney Walton (23:30):
Yeah, And there's, you know, there's there's really very little evidence
that that kids going all out on one sport from
an early age is gonna lead to to benefits, beneficial outcomes.
In fact, it's more just associated with injury, with burnout
and with disengagement
with sport. So where possible encouraging, encouraging kids to do
(23:52):
a range of sports, the things that they wanna do,
that they're interested in, instead of getting too bogged down
in that kind of single minded focus on on one
sport from an early age.
Nick (24:02):
So at the time of recording, the Olympics is coming up, uh,
at breathtaking speed. Uh, and we're all gonna sit back
and enjoy it and watch lots of Aussie gold. Um,
et cetera. Um, is there anything we can do as
sport consumers to contribute to the mental health of athletes? Um,
I'm sure many athletes get negative press, negative social media comments.
(24:23):
I'm sure that does a great deal of harm. In fact,
I know you've done some research showing, uh, it does harm.
Is there anything else besides avoiding, um, negative commentary, uh,
that we can do as spectators and consumers?
Courtney Walton (24:37):
I don't know if anything jumps to mind outside of that,
but I do think that the central part of that
is really important, is the social media side. Um, we
see it every major tournament, every Olympics, um, the Euros
are on at the moment with the football, and, um,
I admit to being an England fan, but, uh, four
(24:57):
years ago, we lost it.
England lost in the in the final, uh, in a
penalty shoot out and the abuse that those players received,
a lot of it racial, was just horrendous, like just awful.
And so every kind of time this comes around, I
(25:18):
think it it is worth flagging and really emphasising the
role that, you know,
you can just imagine the the amount of, um, comments
and notifications and negative feedback that that people are receiving
and so really trying to change and challenge that approach.
And a lot of that comes down to I think,
what I said at the beginning that I think it's
(25:39):
very easy for us to fall into viewing the Olympics
and and these things as entertainment, which it is, um
but forget. But they they are not characters. They are
real people,
um, and so trying to change the way that we
talk about athletes, Um, whether that's through social media, whether
that's just the way that we talk in groups as
(26:00):
though um, disappointment at the Olympics is an incredibly difficult
experience for someone that's dedicated almost everything to that for
four years, adding on top of that a whole bunch of
pile-on and and kind of criticism because,
you know, we see this getting worse now because of gambling,
for example. Right, so people are gambling on sports and
(26:21):
then they lose. They lose. And and that's then the
athletes fault. And so we see a lot of, um,
criticism coming through that piece as well.
Um, so that would be my main thing. My main
thing is, is trying to change the way that we
talk about athletes.
Cassie (26:37):
Do you think clubs have a responsibility to manage those
social media channels, or is it about advising athletes not
to read it? I think a lot of those social
media channels and platforms can be a pretty toxic space
for anyone. But you can imagine the the impact it
would have on an athlete. What's the advice to athletes
around that?
Courtney Walton (26:56):
So difficult. A piece of research, I can't remember who
it was, so I apologise. But qualitative research and athletes
talking about, well,
I can't avoid social media because I'm relying on my
sponsorships to pay my bills, and I have to be
on social media. I have to do XYZ, and so
it's very difficult to just disengage and avoid avoid it
(27:19):
because it's now just a fundamental part
of your brand as an athlete, especially in things like
Olympic sports, where there isn't as much funding as as
professional athletes. So, yeah, it's it's difficult. I think there is, um,
more and more focus on educating athletes, and coaches who
who we haven't mentioned, but, um, on how to navigate
(27:42):
all of that.
Um, but it's very difficult, as it is we're seeing
with with just young people generally and all of us
really in in navigating social media.
Cassie (27:50):
Amazing stuff. Courtney, um, we have to wrap up now
so I can get to my second job as a
soccer mum. But, um, thank you so much for talking
with us today. And I think everyone listening can maybe
go into watching the Olympics with a little bit more
compassion for our athletes now. So thank you so much
for sharing your work with us.
Courtney Walton (28:07):
Thanks for having me.
Nick (28:09):
You've been listening to PsychTalks with me Nick Haslam and
Cassie Hayward. We'd like to thank our guests for today,
Dr Courtney Walton. This episode was produced by Carly Godden
with production assistance from Mairead Murray and Gemma Papprill. Our
sound engineer was Elise Bradshaw. Thanks for tuning in and
we're excited to bring you more episodes of PsychTalks in
this new series. So watch this space. Bye for now.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.