December 11, 2024 • 25 mins
Unlock the psychological reasons behind why we hold onto secrets. Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi explore the emotional costs and benefits of keeping secrets. Discover who we often confide in and hear a clinical psychologist’s perspective on being a professional secret-keeper. And take this survey at keepingsecrets.org to compare your secrets with others.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carly Godden (00:00):
This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people,
the Woi-Wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects
to their elders, past and present, and emerging.
Cassie Hayward (00:14):
From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University
of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks.
Hi, and welcome to PsychTalks. I'm Associate Professor Cassie Hayward,
Nick Haslam (00:25):
and I'm Nick Haslam, a professor and social psychologist here
at the University of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences. Well,
today is our very last episode for this series, and
we really hope you've enjoyed it.
Cassie Hayward (00:35):
I know I've learned a lot, especially all the takeaways
that I can use at home. And if you've felt
the same, feel free to leave us a review and
spread the word about this series.
Nick Haslam (00:44):
OK, so today we're exploring secrets, why we keep them,
and what are some of the personal and social costs
of keeping things tucked away. To tell us all about it,
we're joined by Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi.
Thank you so much for talking to us today, Katie
and Valentina. So before we get into the research you've
(01:05):
been doing, can you tell us, if it's not a secret, uh,
how and why you decided to do research on secrecy?
Katie Greenaway (01:11):
Well, I think, who doesn't want to know about other
people's secrets? They're scintillating, fascinating, exciting to hear about. Um,
but secrets also tell us something really fundamental about human
nature because we're very communicative as a species. We like
to talk to other people and share things with other people.
So why would we ever want to hold things back
(01:34):
in conversation? So the things that we keep to ourselves
actually tells us really, uh, quite a bit about what
people are like and what they're trying to achieve.
Valentina Bianchi (01:42):
Well, for me, I got very inspired when Kate and
I talked about what I could focus my PhD on.
And I found this topic particularly appealing because, as Katie
was saying, it's quite relatable and it's also very relatable
to my work as a clinical psychologist. It helped me
have a bit more of a, um, maybe scientific look
at how the choices that people make about keeping secrets
(02:06):
or sharing secrets have an impact on their well-being as
well as perhaps even their psychopathology.
Cassie Hayward (02:12):
It is such a fascinating area, but is it hard?
To research just in terms of people feeling comfortable talking
to you about secrets. Do you think, do you think
you have a good idea of how many people keep secrets,
or do you think some people keep that a secret?
Katie Greenaway (02:27):
Yeah, it's absolutely. It's a really important question when you're
studying these things. How do you get people to tell
you about their innermost secrets? Fortunately for us, it turns
out that the vast majority of people are keeping a
secret at any given time. In fact, 97% of people That's, uh,
certainly almost all of us in this room, uh, are
keeping a secret right now. And on average people keep
(02:50):
between 10 and 13 secrets at any given time. So
how we ask about this is not by asking people
to divulge the information in their secrets, but we give them, uh,
the common secrets questionnaire, which is a validated, um, scientific
measure of 38 common things that people keep secret. And
(03:11):
we asked them to indicate which of those categories of
information they're currently keeping secret from one person, uh, multiple
people or even everybody in their lives. So if people
listening are interested in finding out how many secrets they're keeping,
they can go to keepingsecrets.org and take the common secrets
questionnaire themselves.
Cassie Hayward (03:31):
And from that, do you have an idea of what
types of things people are most likely to keep secret?
Katie Greenaway (03:38):
Yeah, these 38 common categories, I like to group them
into maybe 3 broad different groups. The first is secrets
that involve other people or about other people. These could
be the classic infidelity or even having extramarital thoughts. Um,
it could be having lied to someone or potentially even
(03:58):
harming someone, having relationship issues with another person. The second
category is pieces of information about ourselves, things like sexual behaviour,
a personal history that we don't want others to know about, um,
feeling discontented at work or in a physical appearance or
in our social relationships, um, mental health or, um, potentially
(04:19):
sexual orientation, even our own beliefs or, um, who we
intend to vote for. And the third category of secrets,
which is a really interesting one, is positive secrets. So
these are things that we actually maybe feel quite good
about but for various reasons are keeping from other people, um,
at this time, they might be, um, an upcoming, uh, uh,
(04:40):
pregnancy announcement, um, an intention to propose marriage to someone,
a surprise or a piece of good news that we
haven't shared with others. So we keep a lot of
different things secret from others.
Nick Haslam (04:51):
So we've talked in a different episode of PsychTalks about
the mental load, and this seems like a different sort of, uh,
mental load. Uh, I, I'm sure it's hard for secret
keepers to keep secrets, and I, I don't mean just
in terms of the desire to blab to someone else,
but does it take some sort of toll on people
having to keep it a secret?
Katie Greenaway (05:09):
It absolutely does. And what I think is interesting about
secrecy is it's not actually the times that we have
to hold information back in conversation that's challenging. It's the
times when we're alone and we're thinking about that secret
and it returns to our mind that's really the thing
that we find the most challenging. And this makes sense
if you think about it, when we conceal information from
(05:30):
other people, those tend to be situations that we plan for,
we prepare for, we imagine what we might say, and
we maybe come up with strategies to help us navigate
that particular conversation.
But we have many, many other times when we're not
talking to other people that our minds are free to
think about pretty much anything. And one thing that our
minds really seem to return to over and over again
(05:52):
is information that we're keeping secret from others. Maybe we're
trying to problem solve that, or we're thinking about what
that means for us, and this kind of mental toll
seems to be what is most burdensome about secrecy.
Nick Haslam (06:04):
So do we know how often people think about those
secrets they've stored away?
Katie Greenaway (06:08):
Yes, much more than they have to conceal those secrets
in conversation. It's usually around about, um, at least 2
to 1 or even, um, sometimes 1 to 3 that
we would be thinking about our secrets more than needing
to conceal those secrets from other people in everyday life.
Nick Haslam (06:26):
So do we know how many times people think about
their secrets?
Valentina Bianchi (06:29):
We do, actually. So Katie and I, with, uh, a
couple of colleagues of ours, um, Elise and Michael have
recently introduced a new way of exploring secrecy in everyday life.
So we have found a way of asking people multiple
times a day for many days. So sometimes even a
week or two weeks, how often they engage in these processes.
(06:50):
And what we found was perhaps a bit surprising. People
think about the secrets approximately 30 times per week, and
only half the times they are required to, uh, conceal
their secrets. So what I'm trying to say here is
that secrets are much more on our mind than they
are on our lips.
Nick Haslam (07:08):
And it's not just because people can't repress, it's because
they're actively thinking about things related to it and maybe
solving problems.
Katie Greenaway (07:14):
Yeah, and that kind of mental, uh, arithmetic can take
a lot of different forms. Sometimes it can be more
productive than others. Maybe we're problem solving, maybe we're thinking
through different ways that we can reinterpret or think about
this information. In fact, what some of our research shows
is that people actually quite like thinking about their secrets,
(07:34):
which might seem a little bit strange, but this is
really important information to us. We tend to engage with
thoughts of those secrets more than we suppress thoughts of
those secrets. But of course, the more you think about
something without coming to a resolution, the more that that
information may come to mind over time. And if we
start to feel negative about that, if we start to
feel like we can't actually see a way through, that
(07:56):
tends to be when thinking about secrets takes a toll.
Cassie Hayward (08:00):
And just thinking about this kind of rumination on the secrets,
there's a lot of talk these days about people being
their authentic selves. Does keeping secrets mess around with that,
in that we can't really be authentic if we're storing
away all these things that we can't talk about or
thinking about these things that we can't talk about? Does
that have a toll on people?
Valentina Bianchi (08:19):
Yeah, absolutely. Actually, that's, uh, only one of the many
ways in which secrets can be, uh, harmful for us
and taking a toll, both on a personal level and
on a relational level. If you think about it, it
kind of makes sense, right? Because if you are holding
back some information from others, you know that you're concealing
a part of you from other people. And in that sense,
(08:41):
you're not being your true authentic self. So you, of course, you,
you're gonna end up feeling inauthentic. And with that, we'll
also go a whole range of other feelings, feeling negative
about yourself, for example, low or maybe anxious. And on
top of that, as I was mentioning, there are some
very important relational costs that come with holding information back.
(09:02):
You don't get to get the support from others, you
get to end up feeling quite isolated. So yes, authenticity
is a cost and there are many other costs associated
with secrecy.
Cassie Hayward (09:15):
Are there any other harms of keeping secrets?
Katie Greenaway (09:19):
Yeah, we've sort of alluded to the fact that many
secrets that we keep, um, involve quite negative information and
that goes hand in hand with a variety of, uh,
negative emotions that we might experience. You might think that, um,
people only ever feel guilt or shame about their secrets,
but what our research shows is that people feel a
wide variety of emotions about their secrets. Not always negative,
(09:43):
sometimes positive, sometimes people might feel relief, for example, that
they didn't have to, um, conceal information from others or, uh,
sometimes they can actually feel quite relaxed about their secrets
when not in a context where they need to divulge
that information from others. But of course, the majority of
emotions that we feel about negatively toned secrets are negative
(10:04):
in nature, things like anxiety, sadness, um, also guilt and shame,
but certainly embarrassment, um, and these kinds of negative emotions
tend to be more commonly experienced in relation to secrecy
than to positive emotions.
Nick Haslam (10:21):
And are there certain types of secrets that are more
harmful than others, um, either in terms of the impact
on the person keeping the secret, uh, but also the
impact if they were to reveal that secret?
Valentina Bianchi (10:32):
Yeah, that's a very great question that I think has
been very well addressed by some, uh, research by, uh,
Michael Slepian and Alex Koch. Uh, they, um, recently, um,
published a paper where they use the, uh, data-driven approach
and they examined hundreds of, uh, actually thousands of, uh,
(10:53):
real life secrets. And they asked hundreds of people to
read them along 3 different dimensions. So we now know
that it's a little bit less about the actual, uh,
idiosyncratic content of secrets. And it's much more about, uh,
this dimension that are then linked to secrets caused and, uh, harm.
And these dimensions are 3. So one is how immoral
(11:17):
the secret is. So if you think about that, if
you consider your secret as highly immoral, you are more
likely to experience shame about it. The second, uh, dimension
is how relational the secret is. So if a secret
is helpful in that you are protecting someone else or
protecting your relationship, that's good for you, right? But if
on the other hand, you know that this secret is
(11:38):
drawing a gap between you and other people, it's going
to lead you to feel quite disconnected and socially isolated.
And then the third dimension is how much of a
clear goal you have about holding these secrets. This is,
for example, the case of professional secrets. So if you
have a clear goal and objective, then you might feel
(11:59):
quite certain about what you're doing there, vice versa, if
you don't have that, you're gonna feel quite uncertain and
that will lead to psychological harm.
Cassie Hayward (12:08):
I think those elements of secrets are really helpful for
people to think about the different types of secrets, because
I think when we think secrets, we automatically think of
bad things that have happened that we're keeping secret, and
people wouldn't, you wouldn't want people to know because of
the shame or the guilt or the morality that you've mentioned. But, um,
not all secrets are bad, and just from my perspective,
(12:30):
so when my husband and I got married, it was
a secret. We didn't tell anyone. And when we had kids,
like many parents, we don't tell anyone that we're pregnant
for a while, so they were all associated with very happy,
joyous things that we were just keeping secret for certain reasons.
But is, is there a different experience of the secret
keeper when it's a positive secret, as opposed to a
(12:52):
negative or a moral or shameful?
Katie Greenaway (12:55):
There absolutely is, and I think that people can think
about this intuitively in their own lives. Certainly positive information
that we keep secret, maybe that we're holding back to
reveal at the right time or in the right way,
we can actually feel quite good about and excited about it,
can heighten the anticipation before revealing that to others. So
that is what we've found, whereas negatively toned secrets tend
(13:18):
to make us feel bad, um, the more that our
minds return to them and that we ruminate about them
over time. Whereas positive secrets are actually ones that we
seem to feel good about, which is kind of ironic
when you think about research that shows that sharing positive
information with other people is one of the best ways
that we can connect with them. In this case, actually
keeping positive information secret is one shortcut way to feeling
(13:42):
very energised and excited because we're thinking about, um, that
information and keeping it to ourselves, maybe feeling a bit
more ownership over it or control, um, over it. So
that's what we found is the reason that positive secrets
seem to be quite energising is because those are secrets
that people tend to choose for their own reasons, as
(14:03):
opposed to feeling as though they're constrained by the situation
or other kinds of reasons that they need to keep
the secret. I think that's a good lesson to take away, actually, um,
more broadly, even about negative secrets. If we can think
about why we're keeping them freely for our own reasons
and for our own benefit, that might be a way
that we can help to help ourselves feel a little
(14:25):
bit better about that.
Nick Haslam (14:27):
In a similar line of thinking, are there relationship benefits
to being the person that other people confide their secrets in?
Katie Greenaway (14:34):
Yes, there are benefits and costs. So, um, what we
know is, uh, sharing information with others is a way
that we can feel closer to those people. Sharing information
that other people are not allowed to know is an
even better way to feel close to people. We feel
like that's a very intimate relationship, that that's a very
trusting relationship. The cost comes when we need to keep
(14:57):
that secret on behalf of somebody else. So we can
have these pros and cons. When someone divulges a secret
to us that we need to keep secret, it becomes
our secret. So it becomes our mental load and something
that we need to work hard to conceal from other people. So, uh,
we feel closer to the person, we can also feel
a bit more burdened by having that information secret.
Cassie Hayward (15:18):
Katie, outside of relationship benefits, are there other benefits to
keeping a secret. And so I'm coming from the world
of applied psychology, I think of a story a few
years ago where Chris Hemsworth was in an ad, it
was touted as this, it was gonna be this new movie,
this new Crocodile Dundee movie. Turned out it was gonna
be an ad for Tourism Australia. It was released in
(15:39):
the Super Bowl. But so many people in the industry
had to keep that secret for it to work. And
I think there was this real kind of, that feeling
of being in on something. and if it had leaked,
it wouldn't have worked. It would have ruined the surprise.
So are there other benefits like that that can be
a motivator to keep secrets?
Katie Greenaway (15:59):
Absolutely. And this really gets into the territory of group
secrets or potentially even organisational secrets. And it's not just
about having a good relationship with the person that you're
keeping information secret for, it's also having a stronger relationship
with people who are keeping that secret with you. So,
if many people are keeping that secret and keeping that
(16:19):
secret successfully, which is probably an important part to this, then, uh,
what we've found is that that tends to make people
feel more identified with other people in their group or
feel closer to other people who are also successfully enacting
that secrecy intention.
Nick Haslam (16:36):
Like the secret professor handshake
Katie Greenaway (16:38):
Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about that.
Cassie Hayward (16:43):
So Katie, are there certain types of people who are
more likely to be selected as the secret keeper? So
do we look for certain personality traits, or is it
more about the relationship elements that we have with those people?
What do we look for when we're selecting our secret keepers?
Katie Greenaway (17:00):
It can be both, um, so certainly we look for
people who we tend to be closer to. Those are
people that we divulge information to. But there are certain
personality traits that we look for in people that we
want to confide in. The first is that we're looking
for someone empathetic, um, and compassionate, who's going to maybe
validate our feelings or be able to give us emotional support.
(17:21):
The second type of person we look for is someone
who's assertive. So this is someone who's going to maybe
help us think through the secret in a way that
we haven't thought about before or maybe even decide what
to do about that secret and it's really going to
push us to do something about it. The kinds of
people we don't confide in are talkative people, someone who's
(17:41):
maybe in danger of spreading that information far and wide.
And also polite people. So these are people who might
say something nice to your face about, um, the situation
or the secret that you have, but who perhaps underneath
doesn't really, um, uh, empathise with you to the degree
that maybe a compassionate person would.
Nick Haslam (18:00):
And how about the personality of secrecy researchers? Is there
anything special about the personality of you folk who study
these things?
Katie Greenaway (18:07):
Sticky beaks, I think.
Valentina Bianchi (18:08):
Absolutely. Very curious people.
Katie Greenaway (18:10):
There's that old adage that we study what we Feel right?
that you're studying secrets because you like secrets?
Yeah, research is "me-search." I don't know how many secrets
are you keeping though?
Valentina Bianchi (18:21):
Too many.
Nick Haslam (18:23):
And yet you seem so authentic. So if our listeners
are sitting there feeling burdened by a secret they're keeping,
what tips do you have for them in terms of
how to manage?
Valentina Bianchi (18:32):
Well, that would depend on what is creating that burden, right?
So if it's more about, um, that secrets popping into
their mind time and time and time again. You would
want to use perhaps more cognitive strategies. So for instance,
you might want to, uh, think again about those three
dimensions I was mentioning before, and have a think about
whether keeping that secret is, um, helpful for a relationship
(18:57):
or perhaps helpful for a specific goal, or maybe OK
to be kept secret because it's not really a problem.
It's not immoral to keep that secret. So I guess
what I'm suggesting here is to try and, um, reconsider
or reappraise the reason why or the, um, the goal
for you to keep that secret. If instead, the problem
(19:18):
is about concealing the secret and not knowing how to
do that, then there are a whole range of strategies
to support you with making a decision about how to, um, yeah,
keep that secret back from others. And of course, then
there is a last, um, opportunity to consider, which is
maybe revealing or sharing that secret.
Nick Haslam (19:39):
That's fascinating because there was some old work by James Pennebaker,
I remember who gave the impression that if just you
disclosed some secret, there'd be all sorts of well-being benefits,
but you're saying it's a bit more complicated than that.
Valentina Bianchi (19:50):
Yeah, absolutely. Because again, linking to what Katie was mentioning before,
you want to be very, very cautious of who you're
sharing that information with, right? So that information is perhaps
completely OK to keep secret because it has a benefit
to do that. And vice versa, if you want to
consider sharing that information, you want to be very careful
(20:11):
about who you do it with, uh, what your purpose is. And, um,
one of the interesting aspects that, um, Jess Salerno and
Michael Slepian found is that if you share that information
with someone who has a different moral stance from you,
it might backfire and they might just try to punish
you by releasing that information on to others.
Cassie Hayward (20:32):
We've talked about if if someone's burdened by a secret
that they're keeping, and you've sort of touched on this
a little in that answer, but if someone's got some
knowledge or behaviour and is feeling burdened by that and
wants to share it, but obviously, there's a risk in
sharing sensitive information, what's the trade-off in terms of thinking
about the pros and cons of revealing a secret to
(20:54):
someone else from the, from the perspective of the person
with that information? Does it help them or hurt them
to share that Information?
Valentina Bianchi (21:01):
Yeah, so that really would depend, right? Because again, uh,
that might have some significant cost for your, uh, psychological well-being,
but also some, uh, significant advantages. Um, so it's really
the matter of weighing pros and cons, both for yourself
and for your relationships, as well as perhaps for your
ultimate goals, maybe professional.
Nick Haslam (21:23):
So Valentina, as you said, you're a clinical psychologist, how
does secrecy figure in your own work? I mean, I know. Uh,
often clients, patients will be keeping secrets from their therapist
at the start, and there are probably some things you
have to keep secret from them as well. How does
this all play out in the clinic?
Valentina Bianchi (21:40):
Yeah, absolutely. So it's a quite fascinating dynamic, I think,
building a rapport with a client, gaining that trust, and, uh,
also showing compassion. I think it's, uh, very crucial to
make people comfortable enough to open up. Uh, in fact,
I've incorporated in my clinical practice now, now at the
beginning of, uh, my initial sessions, uh, a very clear
(22:04):
overt expectations that people will not maybe feel comfortable opening
up immediately about maybe the true reasons why they are
seeking out my support, and that's completely OK. And I
think that approach is really helpful in letting the anxiety
go down, letting uh the client um sit with their
own information and make a um paced decision about when
(22:25):
and if they're comfortable enough with opening up with me.
And then as you touched on, on the other side, unfortunately,
I do have to keep a lot of personal information secret, uh,
and confidential, and that can be quite burdening for clinical
psychologists in general. So we have structures in place, like,
for example, um, peer supervisions and group supervisions. But that
(22:47):
can really be, uh, one of the things that takes
a toll on, um, clinical psychologists and also other professions.
For example, lawyers, doctors, and so on. So something to
keep in mind in terms of, um, professional well-being as well.
Nick Haslam (23:04):
So I mean this is really interesting because there is
social pressure to reciprocate disclosure, right? And so if you're
in a clinic setting and uh your patient is disclosing
all sorts of things to you, it must be hard
not to do somewhat similar to them.
Valentina Bianchi (23:20):
Yeah, absolutely. So, very recently, for instance, I've had situations
where people have opened up about, uh, having lost people
in their life. And, uh, I also have lost someone
recently in my life. And unfortunately, it's just, perhaps the,
the information cannot be shared. But the compassion and the
emotional understanding can definitely support people in creating that connection
(23:44):
with their clients. So perhaps the way I think about
it and, uh, make peace with it is that I'm
supporting them, even though I don't share as much of
my information. I support them through my heart and through
my compassion.
Nick Haslam (23:59):
And at a really big abstract level, is mental health
all about having no secrets at all? What's the goal
for treatment?
Valentina Bianchi (24:07):
Look, I definitely wouldn't say that. And that's because realistically, um,
sometimes it's the best thing to keep a secret. For instance,
I'm talking about maybe, uh, personal information or family secrets
that are best kept because they would have such a
huge repercussion on people's life, on people's, uh, relationships, on
(24:27):
people's ability to, for example, to work in certain environments.
So what I'm saying here is that disclosure is not
always the best choice.
Katie Greenaway (24:36):
Yeah, it's not our business as researchers or clinicians to
tell people they should never keep any secrets. We're more
in the business of helping them understand what are the
pros and cons of doing that and how can they
best keep a secret if that's the right thing for them.
Nick Haslam (24:51):
That's OK. Uh, the thing to look out for is
when the secret's weighing on us, uh, more than usual
or causing us harm in our daily life, and I
think our listeners will be very grateful for all these
insights and advice. Thanks for joining us on PsychTalks.
Katie Greenaway (25:04):
Thank you.
Valentina Bianchi (25:05):
Thank you.
Cassie Hayward (25:07):
Nick, can you believe it? That was the last episode
of the series.
Nick Haslam (25:11):
Hard to believe, Cassie, but it's been a real pleasure.
Cassie Hayward (25:13):
It really has, and for anyone who wants to listen
to any of our other episodes, you can find them
in the back catalogue of your podcast app. You've been
listening to PsychTalks with me, Cassie Hayward, and Nick Haslam.
We'd like to thank our guests for today, Associate Professor
Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. This episode was produced by
Carly Godden with production assistance from Mairead Murray and Gemma Papprill.
(25:36):
Our sound engineer was Jack Palmer.
This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people,
the Woi-Wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects
to their elders, past and present, and emerging.
Cassie Hayward (00:14):
From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University
of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks.
Hi, and welcome to PsychTalks. I'm Associate Professor Cassie Hayward,
Nick Haslam (00:25):
and I'm Nick Haslam, a professor and social psychologist here
at the University of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences. Well,
today is our very last episode for this series, and
we really hope you've enjoyed it.
Cassie Hayward (00:35):
I know I've learned a lot, especially all the takeaways
that I can use at home. And if you've felt
the same, feel free to leave us a review and
spread the word about this series.
Nick Haslam (00:44):
OK, so today we're exploring secrets, why we keep them,
and what are some of the personal and social costs
of keeping things tucked away. To tell us all about it,
we're joined by Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi.
Thank you so much for talking to us today, Katie
and Valentina. So before we get into the research you've
(01:05):
been doing, can you tell us, if it's not a secret, uh,
how and why you decided to do research on secrecy?
Katie Greenaway (01:11):
Well, I think, who doesn't want to know about other
people's secrets? They're scintillating, fascinating, exciting to hear about. Um,
but secrets also tell us something really fundamental about human
nature because we're very communicative as a species. We like
to talk to other people and share things with other people.
So why would we ever want to hold things back
(01:34):
in conversation? So the things that we keep to ourselves
actually tells us really, uh, quite a bit about what
people are like and what they're trying to achieve.
Valentina Bianchi (01:42):
Well, for me, I got very inspired when Kate and
I talked about what I could focus my PhD on.
And I found this topic particularly appealing because, as Katie
was saying, it's quite relatable and it's also very relatable
to my work as a clinical psychologist. It helped me
have a bit more of a, um, maybe scientific look
at how the choices that people make about keeping secrets
(02:06):
or sharing secrets have an impact on their well-being as
well as perhaps even their psychopathology.
Cassie Hayward (02:12):
It is such a fascinating area, but is it hard?
To research just in terms of people feeling comfortable talking
to you about secrets. Do you think, do you think
you have a good idea of how many people keep secrets,
or do you think some people keep that a secret?
Katie Greenaway (02:27):
Yeah, it's absolutely. It's a really important question when you're
studying these things. How do you get people to tell
you about their innermost secrets? Fortunately for us, it turns
out that the vast majority of people are keeping a
secret at any given time. In fact, 97% of people That's, uh,
certainly almost all of us in this room, uh, are
keeping a secret right now. And on average people keep
(02:50):
between 10 and 13 secrets at any given time. So
how we ask about this is not by asking people
to divulge the information in their secrets, but we give them, uh,
the common secrets questionnaire, which is a validated, um, scientific
measure of 38 common things that people keep secret. And
(03:11):
we asked them to indicate which of those categories of
information they're currently keeping secret from one person, uh, multiple
people or even everybody in their lives. So if people
listening are interested in finding out how many secrets they're keeping,
they can go to keepingsecrets.org and take the common secrets
questionnaire themselves.
Cassie Hayward (03:31):
And from that, do you have an idea of what
types of things people are most likely to keep secret?
Katie Greenaway (03:38):
Yeah, these 38 common categories, I like to group them
into maybe 3 broad different groups. The first is secrets
that involve other people or about other people. These could
be the classic infidelity or even having extramarital thoughts. Um,
it could be having lied to someone or potentially even
(03:58):
harming someone, having relationship issues with another person. The second
category is pieces of information about ourselves, things like sexual behaviour,
a personal history that we don't want others to know about, um,
feeling discontented at work or in a physical appearance or
in our social relationships, um, mental health or, um, potentially
(04:19):
sexual orientation, even our own beliefs or, um, who we
intend to vote for. And the third category of secrets,
which is a really interesting one, is positive secrets. So
these are things that we actually maybe feel quite good
about but for various reasons are keeping from other people, um,
at this time, they might be, um, an upcoming, uh, uh,
(04:40):
pregnancy announcement, um, an intention to propose marriage to someone,
a surprise or a piece of good news that we
haven't shared with others. So we keep a lot of
different things secret from others.
Nick Haslam (04:51):
So we've talked in a different episode of PsychTalks about
the mental load, and this seems like a different sort of, uh,
mental load. Uh, I, I'm sure it's hard for secret
keepers to keep secrets, and I, I don't mean just
in terms of the desire to blab to someone else,
but does it take some sort of toll on people
having to keep it a secret?
Katie Greenaway (05:09):
It absolutely does. And what I think is interesting about
secrecy is it's not actually the times that we have
to hold information back in conversation that's challenging. It's the
times when we're alone and we're thinking about that secret
and it returns to our mind that's really the thing
that we find the most challenging. And this makes sense
if you think about it, when we conceal information from
(05:30):
other people, those tend to be situations that we plan for,
we prepare for, we imagine what we might say, and
we maybe come up with strategies to help us navigate
that particular conversation.
But we have many, many other times when we're not
talking to other people that our minds are free to
think about pretty much anything. And one thing that our
minds really seem to return to over and over again
(05:52):
is information that we're keeping secret from others. Maybe we're
trying to problem solve that, or we're thinking about what
that means for us, and this kind of mental toll
seems to be what is most burdensome about secrecy.
Nick Haslam (06:04):
So do we know how often people think about those
secrets they've stored away?
Katie Greenaway (06:08):
Yes, much more than they have to conceal those secrets
in conversation. It's usually around about, um, at least 2
to 1 or even, um, sometimes 1 to 3 that
we would be thinking about our secrets more than needing
to conceal those secrets from other people in everyday life.
Nick Haslam (06:26):
So do we know how many times people think about
their secrets?
Valentina Bianchi (06:29):
We do, actually. So Katie and I, with, uh, a
couple of colleagues of ours, um, Elise and Michael have
recently introduced a new way of exploring secrecy in everyday life.
So we have found a way of asking people multiple
times a day for many days. So sometimes even a
week or two weeks, how often they engage in these processes.
(06:50):
And what we found was perhaps a bit surprising. People
think about the secrets approximately 30 times per week, and
only half the times they are required to, uh, conceal
their secrets. So what I'm trying to say here is
that secrets are much more on our mind than they
are on our lips.
Nick Haslam (07:08):
And it's not just because people can't repress, it's because
they're actively thinking about things related to it and maybe
solving problems.
Katie Greenaway (07:14):
Yeah, and that kind of mental, uh, arithmetic can take
a lot of different forms. Sometimes it can be more
productive than others. Maybe we're problem solving, maybe we're thinking
through different ways that we can reinterpret or think about
this information. In fact, what some of our research shows
is that people actually quite like thinking about their secrets,
(07:34):
which might seem a little bit strange, but this is
really important information to us. We tend to engage with
thoughts of those secrets more than we suppress thoughts of
those secrets. But of course, the more you think about
something without coming to a resolution, the more that that
information may come to mind over time. And if we
start to feel negative about that, if we start to
feel like we can't actually see a way through, that
(07:56):
tends to be when thinking about secrets takes a toll.
Cassie Hayward (08:00):
And just thinking about this kind of rumination on the secrets,
there's a lot of talk these days about people being
their authentic selves. Does keeping secrets mess around with that,
in that we can't really be authentic if we're storing
away all these things that we can't talk about or
thinking about these things that we can't talk about? Does
that have a toll on people?
Valentina Bianchi (08:19):
Yeah, absolutely. Actually, that's, uh, only one of the many
ways in which secrets can be, uh, harmful for us
and taking a toll, both on a personal level and
on a relational level. If you think about it, it
kind of makes sense, right? Because if you are holding
back some information from others, you know that you're concealing
a part of you from other people. And in that sense,
(08:41):
you're not being your true authentic self. So you, of course, you,
you're gonna end up feeling inauthentic. And with that, we'll
also go a whole range of other feelings, feeling negative
about yourself, for example, low or maybe anxious. And on
top of that, as I was mentioning, there are some
very important relational costs that come with holding information back.
(09:02):
You don't get to get the support from others, you
get to end up feeling quite isolated. So yes, authenticity
is a cost and there are many other costs associated
with secrecy.
Cassie Hayward (09:15):
Are there any other harms of keeping secrets?
Katie Greenaway (09:19):
Yeah, we've sort of alluded to the fact that many
secrets that we keep, um, involve quite negative information and
that goes hand in hand with a variety of, uh,
negative emotions that we might experience. You might think that, um,
people only ever feel guilt or shame about their secrets,
but what our research shows is that people feel a
wide variety of emotions about their secrets. Not always negative,
(09:43):
sometimes positive, sometimes people might feel relief, for example, that
they didn't have to, um, conceal information from others or, uh,
sometimes they can actually feel quite relaxed about their secrets
when not in a context where they need to divulge
that information from others. But of course, the majority of
emotions that we feel about negatively toned secrets are negative
(10:04):
in nature, things like anxiety, sadness, um, also guilt and shame,
but certainly embarrassment, um, and these kinds of negative emotions
tend to be more commonly experienced in relation to secrecy
than to positive emotions.
Nick Haslam (10:21):
And are there certain types of secrets that are more
harmful than others, um, either in terms of the impact
on the person keeping the secret, uh, but also the
impact if they were to reveal that secret?
Valentina Bianchi (10:32):
Yeah, that's a very great question that I think has
been very well addressed by some, uh, research by, uh,
Michael Slepian and Alex Koch. Uh, they, um, recently, um,
published a paper where they use the, uh, data-driven approach
and they examined hundreds of, uh, actually thousands of, uh,
(10:53):
real life secrets. And they asked hundreds of people to
read them along 3 different dimensions. So we now know
that it's a little bit less about the actual, uh,
idiosyncratic content of secrets. And it's much more about, uh,
this dimension that are then linked to secrets caused and, uh, harm.
And these dimensions are 3. So one is how immoral
(11:17):
the secret is. So if you think about that, if
you consider your secret as highly immoral, you are more
likely to experience shame about it. The second, uh, dimension
is how relational the secret is. So if a secret
is helpful in that you are protecting someone else or
protecting your relationship, that's good for you, right? But if
on the other hand, you know that this secret is
(11:38):
drawing a gap between you and other people, it's going
to lead you to feel quite disconnected and socially isolated.
And then the third dimension is how much of a
clear goal you have about holding these secrets. This is,
for example, the case of professional secrets. So if you
have a clear goal and objective, then you might feel
(11:59):
quite certain about what you're doing there, vice versa, if
you don't have that, you're gonna feel quite uncertain and
that will lead to psychological harm.
Cassie Hayward (12:08):
I think those elements of secrets are really helpful for
people to think about the different types of secrets, because
I think when we think secrets, we automatically think of
bad things that have happened that we're keeping secret, and
people wouldn't, you wouldn't want people to know because of
the shame or the guilt or the morality that you've mentioned. But, um,
not all secrets are bad, and just from my perspective,
(12:30):
so when my husband and I got married, it was
a secret. We didn't tell anyone. And when we had kids,
like many parents, we don't tell anyone that we're pregnant
for a while, so they were all associated with very happy,
joyous things that we were just keeping secret for certain reasons.
But is, is there a different experience of the secret
keeper when it's a positive secret, as opposed to a
(12:52):
negative or a moral or shameful?
Katie Greenaway (12:55):
There absolutely is, and I think that people can think
about this intuitively in their own lives. Certainly positive information
that we keep secret, maybe that we're holding back to
reveal at the right time or in the right way,
we can actually feel quite good about and excited about it,
can heighten the anticipation before revealing that to others. So
that is what we've found, whereas negatively toned secrets tend
(13:18):
to make us feel bad, um, the more that our
minds return to them and that we ruminate about them
over time. Whereas positive secrets are actually ones that we
seem to feel good about, which is kind of ironic
when you think about research that shows that sharing positive
information with other people is one of the best ways
that we can connect with them. In this case, actually
keeping positive information secret is one shortcut way to feeling
(13:42):
very energised and excited because we're thinking about, um, that
information and keeping it to ourselves, maybe feeling a bit
more ownership over it or control, um, over it. So
that's what we found is the reason that positive secrets
seem to be quite energising is because those are secrets
that people tend to choose for their own reasons, as
(14:03):
opposed to feeling as though they're constrained by the situation
or other kinds of reasons that they need to keep
the secret. I think that's a good lesson to take away, actually, um,
more broadly, even about negative secrets. If we can think
about why we're keeping them freely for our own reasons
and for our own benefit, that might be a way
that we can help to help ourselves feel a little
(14:25):
bit better about that.
Nick Haslam (14:27):
In a similar line of thinking, are there relationship benefits
to being the person that other people confide their secrets in?
Katie Greenaway (14:34):
Yes, there are benefits and costs. So, um, what we
know is, uh, sharing information with others is a way
that we can feel closer to those people. Sharing information
that other people are not allowed to know is an
even better way to feel close to people. We feel
like that's a very intimate relationship, that that's a very
trusting relationship. The cost comes when we need to keep
(14:57):
that secret on behalf of somebody else. So we can
have these pros and cons. When someone divulges a secret
to us that we need to keep secret, it becomes
our secret. So it becomes our mental load and something
that we need to work hard to conceal from other people. So, uh,
we feel closer to the person, we can also feel
a bit more burdened by having that information secret.
Cassie Hayward (15:18):
Katie, outside of relationship benefits, are there other benefits to
keeping a secret. And so I'm coming from the world
of applied psychology, I think of a story a few
years ago where Chris Hemsworth was in an ad, it
was touted as this, it was gonna be this new movie,
this new Crocodile Dundee movie. Turned out it was gonna
be an ad for Tourism Australia. It was released in
(15:39):
the Super Bowl. But so many people in the industry
had to keep that secret for it to work. And
I think there was this real kind of, that feeling
of being in on something. and if it had leaked,
it wouldn't have worked. It would have ruined the surprise.
So are there other benefits like that that can be
a motivator to keep secrets?
Katie Greenaway (15:59):
Absolutely. And this really gets into the territory of group
secrets or potentially even organisational secrets. And it's not just
about having a good relationship with the person that you're
keeping information secret for, it's also having a stronger relationship
with people who are keeping that secret with you. So,
if many people are keeping that secret and keeping that
(16:19):
secret successfully, which is probably an important part to this, then, uh,
what we've found is that that tends to make people
feel more identified with other people in their group or
feel closer to other people who are also successfully enacting
that secrecy intention.
Nick Haslam (16:36):
Like the secret professor handshake
Katie Greenaway (16:38):
Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about that.
Cassie Hayward (16:43):
So Katie, are there certain types of people who are
more likely to be selected as the secret keeper? So
do we look for certain personality traits, or is it
more about the relationship elements that we have with those people?
What do we look for when we're selecting our secret keepers?
Katie Greenaway (17:00):
It can be both, um, so certainly we look for
people who we tend to be closer to. Those are
people that we divulge information to. But there are certain
personality traits that we look for in people that we
want to confide in. The first is that we're looking
for someone empathetic, um, and compassionate, who's going to maybe
validate our feelings or be able to give us emotional support.
(17:21):
The second type of person we look for is someone
who's assertive. So this is someone who's going to maybe
help us think through the secret in a way that
we haven't thought about before or maybe even decide what
to do about that secret and it's really going to
push us to do something about it. The kinds of
people we don't confide in are talkative people, someone who's
(17:41):
maybe in danger of spreading that information far and wide.
And also polite people. So these are people who might
say something nice to your face about, um, the situation
or the secret that you have, but who perhaps underneath
doesn't really, um, uh, empathise with you to the degree
that maybe a compassionate person would.
Nick Haslam (18:00):
And how about the personality of secrecy researchers? Is there
anything special about the personality of you folk who study
these things?
Katie Greenaway (18:07):
Sticky beaks, I think.
Valentina Bianchi (18:08):
Absolutely. Very curious people.
Katie Greenaway (18:10):
There's that old adage that we study what we Feel right?
that you're studying secrets because you like secrets?
Yeah, research is "me-search." I don't know how many secrets
are you keeping though?
Valentina Bianchi (18:21):
Too many.
Nick Haslam (18:23):
And yet you seem so authentic. So if our listeners
are sitting there feeling burdened by a secret they're keeping,
what tips do you have for them in terms of
how to manage?
Valentina Bianchi (18:32):
Well, that would depend on what is creating that burden, right?
So if it's more about, um, that secrets popping into
their mind time and time and time again. You would
want to use perhaps more cognitive strategies. So for instance,
you might want to, uh, think again about those three
dimensions I was mentioning before, and have a think about
whether keeping that secret is, um, helpful for a relationship
(18:57):
or perhaps helpful for a specific goal, or maybe OK
to be kept secret because it's not really a problem.
It's not immoral to keep that secret. So I guess
what I'm suggesting here is to try and, um, reconsider
or reappraise the reason why or the, um, the goal
for you to keep that secret. If instead, the problem
(19:18):
is about concealing the secret and not knowing how to
do that, then there are a whole range of strategies
to support you with making a decision about how to, um, yeah,
keep that secret back from others. And of course, then
there is a last, um, opportunity to consider, which is
maybe revealing or sharing that secret.
Nick Haslam (19:39):
That's fascinating because there was some old work by James Pennebaker,
I remember who gave the impression that if just you
disclosed some secret, there'd be all sorts of well-being benefits,
but you're saying it's a bit more complicated than that.
Valentina Bianchi (19:50):
Yeah, absolutely. Because again, linking to what Katie was mentioning before,
you want to be very, very cautious of who you're
sharing that information with, right? So that information is perhaps
completely OK to keep secret because it has a benefit
to do that. And vice versa, if you want to
consider sharing that information, you want to be very careful
(20:11):
about who you do it with, uh, what your purpose is. And, um,
one of the interesting aspects that, um, Jess Salerno and
Michael Slepian found is that if you share that information
with someone who has a different moral stance from you,
it might backfire and they might just try to punish
you by releasing that information on to others.
Cassie Hayward (20:32):
We've talked about if if someone's burdened by a secret
that they're keeping, and you've sort of touched on this
a little in that answer, but if someone's got some
knowledge or behaviour and is feeling burdened by that and
wants to share it, but obviously, there's a risk in
sharing sensitive information, what's the trade-off in terms of thinking
about the pros and cons of revealing a secret to
(20:54):
someone else from the, from the perspective of the person
with that information? Does it help them or hurt them
to share that Information?
Valentina Bianchi (21:01):
Yeah, so that really would depend, right? Because again, uh,
that might have some significant cost for your, uh, psychological well-being,
but also some, uh, significant advantages. Um, so it's really
the matter of weighing pros and cons, both for yourself
and for your relationships, as well as perhaps for your
ultimate goals, maybe professional.
Nick Haslam (21:23):
So Valentina, as you said, you're a clinical psychologist, how
does secrecy figure in your own work? I mean, I know. Uh,
often clients, patients will be keeping secrets from their therapist
at the start, and there are probably some things you
have to keep secret from them as well. How does
this all play out in the clinic?
Valentina Bianchi (21:40):
Yeah, absolutely. So it's a quite fascinating dynamic, I think,
building a rapport with a client, gaining that trust, and, uh,
also showing compassion. I think it's, uh, very crucial to
make people comfortable enough to open up. Uh, in fact,
I've incorporated in my clinical practice now, now at the
beginning of, uh, my initial sessions, uh, a very clear
(22:04):
overt expectations that people will not maybe feel comfortable opening
up immediately about maybe the true reasons why they are
seeking out my support, and that's completely OK. And I
think that approach is really helpful in letting the anxiety
go down, letting uh the client um sit with their
own information and make a um paced decision about when
(22:25):
and if they're comfortable enough with opening up with me.
And then as you touched on, on the other side, unfortunately,
I do have to keep a lot of personal information secret, uh,
and confidential, and that can be quite burdening for clinical
psychologists in general. So we have structures in place, like,
for example, um, peer supervisions and group supervisions. But that
(22:47):
can really be, uh, one of the things that takes
a toll on, um, clinical psychologists and also other professions.
For example, lawyers, doctors, and so on. So something to
keep in mind in terms of, um, professional well-being as well.
Nick Haslam (23:04):
So I mean this is really interesting because there is
social pressure to reciprocate disclosure, right? And so if you're
in a clinic setting and uh your patient is disclosing
all sorts of things to you, it must be hard
not to do somewhat similar to them.
Valentina Bianchi (23:20):
Yeah, absolutely. So, very recently, for instance, I've had situations
where people have opened up about, uh, having lost people
in their life. And, uh, I also have lost someone
recently in my life. And unfortunately, it's just, perhaps the,
the information cannot be shared. But the compassion and the
emotional understanding can definitely support people in creating that connection
(23:44):
with their clients. So perhaps the way I think about
it and, uh, make peace with it is that I'm
supporting them, even though I don't share as much of
my information. I support them through my heart and through
my compassion.
Nick Haslam (23:59):
And at a really big abstract level, is mental health
all about having no secrets at all? What's the goal
for treatment?
Valentina Bianchi (24:07):
Look, I definitely wouldn't say that. And that's because realistically, um,
sometimes it's the best thing to keep a secret. For instance,
I'm talking about maybe, uh, personal information or family secrets
that are best kept because they would have such a
huge repercussion on people's life, on people's, uh, relationships, on
(24:27):
people's ability to, for example, to work in certain environments.
So what I'm saying here is that disclosure is not
always the best choice.
Katie Greenaway (24:36):
Yeah, it's not our business as researchers or clinicians to
tell people they should never keep any secrets. We're more
in the business of helping them understand what are the
pros and cons of doing that and how can they
best keep a secret if that's the right thing for them.
Nick Haslam (24:51):
That's OK. Uh, the thing to look out for is
when the secret's weighing on us, uh, more than usual
or causing us harm in our daily life, and I
think our listeners will be very grateful for all these
insights and advice. Thanks for joining us on PsychTalks.
Katie Greenaway (25:04):
Thank you.
Valentina Bianchi (25:05):
Thank you.
Cassie Hayward (25:07):
Nick, can you believe it? That was the last episode
of the series.
Nick Haslam (25:11):
Hard to believe, Cassie, but it's been a real pleasure.
Cassie Hayward (25:13):
It really has, and for anyone who wants to listen
to any of our other episodes, you can find them
in the back catalogue of your podcast app. You've been
listening to PsychTalks with me, Cassie Hayward, and Nick Haslam.
We'd like to thank our guests for today, Associate Professor
Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. This episode was produced by
Carly Godden with production assistance from Mairead Murray and Gemma Papprill.
(25:36):
Our sound engineer was Jack Palmer.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.