Addicted to Risk: Ten Years After the ATM Glitch | Dan Saunders - Real Crime with Adam Shand

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approache Production.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
Adam Shand. If you like our content, please hit the
like and subscribe buttons and share it with your friends
to support more independent crime journalism. And if you have
a story for me, don't hesitate to get in touch.
You can send me an email at Adam Shand writer
at gmail dot com. That's how today's story came to me,

(00:36):
and it's one of the most unusual stories I ever covered.
A decade later, I'm still coming to terms with how
and why it happened. I got an email from a
bank robber, not your average stick up man. Daniel Saunders
was a barmany in a country town who stumbled upon
a glitch in his ATM card which allowed him to

(00:57):
take almost unlimited money from the National Australia Bank.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Imagine getting rich in an instant.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
It is exactly what happened to Dan Saunders after an
EIGHTM glitch accidentally handed.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Him one point six million dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
When confronted with this opportunity, many of us would take
a bit of cash, some might take a lot. Very
few would do what Dan did. Over the next four
and a half months, Dan transferred more than one point
four million dollars to his account and had the greatest
time of his life. A cast of friends, both old

(01:33):
and new, came along for the ride. As Dan sought
to define the limits of the glitch.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
He blew cash on wild parties like Jurius hotels fancy dinners.
He even gave money to friends.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
The bank didn't seem to understand it was being robbed
and did nothing, so the spree grew bigger and bigger.
In the end, Dan voluntarily stopped and came to me
to confess and help him atone for what he did.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
He expected police to catch him, but for three years
it never happened until it confessed to the crime on TV.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
The story of.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
The Golden ATM Card has gone around the world in
hundreds of different languages. I'm making a movie of the
story with a friend in Hollywood as we speak. But
it's only now that Dan understands what really motivated him.
We originally sat down after ten years to discuss the
difference between the man and the myth. It's been ten

(02:31):
years since we sat pretty much in this room. If
you feed that way, I think I do better. Sound now,
I wouldn't do it in the kitchen. It's better location
for Sounta. I've led that much at least. But you know,
over that ten years, I've always felt the story didn't
satisfy me in some way. You came to me those
ten years ago and said, I want to confess this

(02:52):
thing I've done. It was a tremendous ride, but I
do feel that I want to atone for it, want
my life back, and so and so forth. And I
chose to see it through the prism that best made
sense for me, which was, here's this thing, this fate,
this destiny, out of the ether. This ordinary bloke, good bloke,

(03:12):
morally upright bloke chooses him. This is the moment where
the underdog wins. But even that, the underdog has a
moral sense and says, no, no, I did the wrong thing.
And we put that story out and never really quelled
my doubts.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
I mean, no one challenged the facts. Nobody to this day.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
And always the first question was, Ah, this couldn't have
happened the way he said. It couldn't have happened, you know,
And what's happened to the rest of the money. And
I got to answer the first question that I know
one hundred percent. Because I was skeptical at the beginning too,
but over time you showed me and I checked to
my own checks and the fact that even when I
said to you, mate, bless you like and fuck off,

(03:56):
you still wanted to come and tell me.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
So I didn't understand any of that.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Why would someone be so keen to really damage their
own life when they didn't have to?

Speaker 1 (04:05):
And since then, this story has gone.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
All around the well millions and millions of downloads, and
it's always told through that prism that was convenient to me.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's remarkable.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
The numbers get bigger and the story gets larger and
bigger and bigger, and everyone wants to see it the
way they want to see it, and you, in that
process are no longer Dan Saunders. You're kind of what
they call an artifact of other people's images and desires.
And I think what I want to do today, I
think you have the clarity now to really resolve this

(04:40):
story in a way that makes sense to me, at least,
so to understand was.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
This really a surreal thing?

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Did the fates powers that we don't know about choose
you to give you this atm glitch and to have
this experience or was there something else that play. I
know you didn't think this at the time, but I
think over time you've got a lot of clarity to
your experience.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
What it costs you, what it was. How do you
see it now?

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Was this like finding a needle in the haystack or
the haystack finding you?

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, there's a lot, There's a lot there at it.

Speaker 4 (05:13):
It's great to be back in the same place as
ten years ago, and speaking about it further, It's been
a hell of a journey.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
All of the time. I've got no regrets about it.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
The way that I told the story at the time,
I didn't feel that that was, you know, in any
way inaccurate. Probably in hindsight you sort of look back
and you go, well, oh, that's of course why I
did that. But I was Yeah, I mean I was
a recreational punter, you know, used to gamble on the
horses on the weekend, and yeah, kind of in a way,

(05:48):
I guess I was sort of looking for something like that.
I think you probably naive if you think that I
was just walking along the street and just found something
sort of.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Out of the blue, or if the fates chose you
or something.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I was definitely I was
partial to it, and it almost became like, I mean
I never I never gambled, you know, more than I
sort of, you know, like I see that. You know,
it's so interesting with the gambling messages, you know, like
gamble responsibly. It's like, well, what's responsibly? Like is it

(06:24):
just you know that you can get all your bills
paid and eat, or like what's the level of you know,
do you need to be putting some way of your
future or I guess it's you know, it's all sort of.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Up to you what's responsible.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
And I see that the gambling message, now you know,
chances are you're about to lose, and the government sort
of celebrates this message. You go, oh, the message is
so great, so different as a gambler or you know,
a punter, there's something in my TNA. I look at
that message and I go, well, yeah, chances are I
can lose, but chances are I can win.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
You know, like that actually entices me more when I
hear that.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
At the end, I'm like, oh great, yeah, yeah I
might lose, but hey, I might win, you know, And
that's what it's.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
All based on.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Because I think the way this story has been told,
and I told it myself, is that again this shows
you in a surreal, mystic way. But you put it
very succinctly to me when we spoke again back in
the same place on the highway that I had my
first conversation with you.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
But I set that up.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
I made sure it wasn't the same place to be
honest for the story, you know. But you said this
was looking for me. Maybe not. Maybe I was looking
for this or something similar, or it would have been
something similar like this, because the real addiction maybe not
gamblings there, but I think it's the addiction to.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
Risk, yeah, and living life in a scarcity loop. There's
this guy named Michael Easter, and he has this book
called Scarcity Brain, but he talks about this thing called
scarcity loop, and it's in a lot of things. It's
in social media, it's in yeah, of course. But ultimately
this ATM thing was just a exacerbated way of the

(08:13):
way that I lived my life at that point, you know,
so unpredictable rewards, not knowing what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
You know, It's like funny.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
If you don't like gambling, you usually like certainty, you
know what I mean. So so gambling sort of doesn't
work on people who like certainty because you know they
can't sort of. But people who like surprises and you know,
joy that comes in a way that's a complete surprise
was always amazing to so this ATM glitch I found

(08:46):
it and it was like, well, I can't stop because
I've got to see what's going to happen next, you know,
and people just to this day, I mean, it's been
replayed and retold, and so that's the places where people
come into trouble where they don't understand it is. It's
been told by third parties over and over and over

(09:08):
again who don't actually understand exactly the way it happened.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
I mean, so this was an ATM glitch.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
Yeah, but I could alter my account balance, an incredibly
addictive thing to be able to do. Like I said,
literally by the stroke of a keyboard, you could put
one hundred thousand dollars in your account and then you
could walk into the bank and ask them for a balance,
and they think that you had that money there, so
they didn't see anything by giving you five thousand or

(09:36):
ten thousand. They're more than happy to give it to
you because that was in the bank to them. So
it's much more than just an ATM glitch. It's a
whole system glitch. But the point is it was incredibly addictive,
but I would say more addictive than the gambling, and that's.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Why that's why I went through it. But if I
hadn't gone.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
And told that story in court, I don't think it
would have gone very well for me. I think they
would have been like, well, you can go to jail
for ten years.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
I don't know, I mean, I don't know that didn't happen,
but I was amazed, literally amazed, when you manage just
to get one year, you know, I mean, I was
thinking this is going to be a five on the
bottom because other people have got similar sentences. So maybe
that formless, maybe that kind of naive decision. Maybe that

(10:33):
you know, that story, if you like, was the reason
that you stayed out of jail for those other years.
Because the addictive gambler who sees an opportunity and willfully
exploits it, is he going to get the same amount
of sympathy and stature as someone Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Probably not. Probably not.

Speaker 4 (10:53):
I mean I'm not sure, but I think it was
a very good move, so were playing dumb to it all? Absolutely, Like,
I think that was a winning move, but I wasn't
thinking about that at the time.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
But they can't stop there from it. You say it
wasn't a dumb move and it was a strategy. I
honestly don't think you were thinking that far ahead. I
think it's only now, And this is why this conversation
is so important at this stage. It's only now, with
that distance, you have the clarity on what was actually
going on and what you should do. And I think

(11:25):
you when I look back at our first meeting at
McBridge Road having a coffee first told me about it,
and I think you're almost looking at me saying, help
me to understand this. Why is this happening to me?
How do I move beyond this? And I couldn't tell you.

Speaker 4 (11:44):
Yeah, it was an incredible set of circumstances. You know,
you go to the bank. Obviously they're saying to me
that they're going to come and get That's their message, right,
So I'm like, Okay, well they're going to come and
get me eventually.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
So what do I do now?

Speaker 4 (12:00):
It's just sort of tread water and wait for them
to come, But I don't know that the guy I'm
talking to at the bank, he's ultimately not making the
decision on whether they're going to come and get me, right,
So I'm not hearing from them. I'm hearing from the
guy who's probably got a bit of heat on his
job because of what I was able to do.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I don't know, but the point.

Speaker 4 (12:21):
Is that they're not being transparent with me, Like, you know,
I'm coming forward, I'm owning up, I'm saying this is
what I'm doing, but they're not sort of coming back
to me with a transparent response. So that creates this
sort of thing. Well, you know, obviously they didn't bank
on me being a gambler because I just called their
bluff at the end of the day and I went, well,

(12:42):
if you're going to come and get me, then I'll
just sort of out myself and then we can get
this ball.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Rolling a lot quicker, which I was happy with.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
I was finely, but yeah, I mean to sort of
realize now that I wouldn't have had to face any
consequences for this, I'm sort of thinking how many people
have done similar things to this. I mean, there's got
to be more than just met it can't be just dance.
There's got to be flaws in systems, in big banks

(13:12):
in Australia where this has happened before and they've just
turned the other cheap.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
In every man made system, there are these flaws. And
the difference here is that very few people will step
across the threshold, and very few people, having stepped across
the threshold, will now have the moral conscience or whatever
the thoughts.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Whether you had to atone for it, how do you
feel about now?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
As you say, you could have got off scot free,
but you went through all these things as a result
of your own actions in putting yourself in it.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
How do you feel about that now?

Speaker 4 (13:49):
I think now I'm one hundred percent where I need
to be. I just feel like it was meant to
play out in that way. I don't have any regrets
about it. I mean I regretted the first fifteen minutes
in jail. I was like, oh, what have you done
with your life?

Speaker 1 (14:01):
And all that?

Speaker 4 (14:02):
But you see the people in jail, Yeah, they've done
bad things, and like, obviously there's a point where they deserve.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
To be there.

Speaker 4 (14:09):
I'm not saying that. You know, if you don't do
the wrong thing. You shouldn't go to chart. I'm not
saying that, we're just saying they don't have the normal
upbringing that your eye had, you know, like they don't
have people that read them stories in the morning or
in the night, or they don't have people like literally,
guy I shared a cell with literally his dad used
to beat him every day. Like if your dad beats

(14:32):
you every day, and that's your vision of the world.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
How are you going to turn out? You know what
I mean? Like so, and the damage is done by
the time he's seven.

Speaker 4 (14:42):
It's not like when the government takes over at fourteen
fifteen or whatever it's it's when he's seven. He's getting
belted and he's you know, he's lost hearing he's right
yet and like he took someone apart. He did, like
he did the wrong thing. He's the first to admit that.
But he's like a bulldog, like you cross him, he'll

(15:03):
kill you.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
That's it. He doesn't give shit, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
And it's a product of society, that's not a product
of like, oh, he was just a bad egg, you
know what I mean. So that time in there was
incredibly insightful.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
I was fearful for you to be honest, because, like
I said at first meeting, you're not a crook stepping
into a space.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
I mean, oh, what do you know.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
I was worried about this idea that people were saying, oh, well,
Dan must have put money aside. I was thinking, when
he gets into jail and the people know this, and
they hear about his mother and his uncle and other
family members, and they go visit them to say, well,
where Stan's money, you know, and are you responsible for that?

Speaker 4 (15:42):
Oh you think that hens? Yeah, yeah, people have called
my mum and asked that. Absolutely. But I mean that's all,
you know, that's all part of it. I'm not winging.
I'm just saying that, like you underestimate what happens in it,
Like I think people sort of go, oh, yeah, you know,
that's just that, and you have no idea like the

(16:02):
amount of what's happening between the guards and the prisoners.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
And then how that impacts the outside world.

Speaker 4 (16:13):
The amount of cash going through TA aircounts for drugs
in jail is astronomical, unbelievable, likely to be the easiest
thing to track in the world if you're trying to
track it.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
But it's just now us. You know, oh, you know,
that's how they do business, keep them quiet to some extent.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
And there maybe I think you've had one of those
penny drop moments, or maybe it's come over a period
of time, and there's certainly a penny drop moment for
me where we.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Look at the motivation for this because I could never
understand it.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
I understand risk and having a dash and you know,
going for the underdog, but destroying your own life in
the process. I never got it, and I was never
comfortable in being a part of that, to be perfectly honest.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
And now when you come to this point with the
clarity to.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Say, I know what kind of caused this, and it's
not what the three hundred million downloads on YouTube purported
to be, it's no longer the truth. It's factually correct,
but it's not the truth. What's the real source? Why
did you at that point when you could have stepped
back and said, you know, one night's jolly, go back

(17:21):
to life, wangoada fiance making your progress?

Speaker 1 (17:26):
Why didn't you?

Speaker 4 (17:28):
It was just the thriller of the chase. It was
the process, It was the uncertainty, it was.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
The choose your own adventure it was.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
It was basically I got a free hit at something
that people don't normally get.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
What though, But what was that thing?

Speaker 4 (17:46):
I think it was just excitement. I think it was
just a level. There was a level of excitement there
that I really really resonated with. And my dopamine levels
must have been so high that I was just looking
for one through, after one through and after one through.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
The way you feel when you were gambling. Yeah, yeah,
for sure. You know, I don't feel like I'm a
victim to gambling. I love gambling, you know.

Speaker 4 (18:12):
I don't look at gambling and go through all my
life like in a lot of ways, I'd say it's
enhanced my life. But is the fifteen year old who's
you know, in the TB.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
Betting next to his science teacher? You know, is he
good with it? You know? I don't know. But the
forty three year old means I'm in it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
I'm not looking to tell a victim story here, because
if this is a victim story, the listeners will have
already switched off. They know this story, they know the story,
and they processed it. But I think the harder thing
is to look at the true motivation for this and
why it.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Couldn't stop, how it just changes everything.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
And I look at those stories after this conversation we had,
I look at those stories out on the internet and
I just kind of laugh at them. It don't make
any sense, And you've made it make sense for me
in the sense that this wasn't looking for you. You
were looking for this, Yeah, for.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Sure, for sure.

Speaker 4 (19:13):
And I think automatically, like if you say, if you
say you're a gambler. I remember there was a there
was a forensic psychologist when it saw the County Quarter
pointed him.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
His name was Ian Joblin.

Speaker 4 (19:26):
I told him the whole story and he concluded that
gambling had nothing to do with it.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
And I was like, wow, you're a hell of a psychologist, buddy.

Speaker 4 (19:37):
Like if you can't work out that I went in
an ATM spree or a bank spree and the sole
purpose or the sole source wasn't because I was a
bit of a punter, then I don't know what you're
doing in.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
This little lofts in the County Court, buddy, because there's
something not quite right there.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
But I don't know whether he wanted to see it
or he didn't want to see it.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
I'm not sure. I don't know the politics behind that,
but it's.

Speaker 4 (20:05):
Very, very weird that gambling wouldn't have been you know,
the court sat there and went, oh, yeah, Dan was
just a barman who went to the ATM and saw
it was you know, sharn out cash.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
So you just kept getting it. That was fine for
the court to follow.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
They were happy, so the bank didn't have to explain
anything on their part and that was it.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Case closed.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, And I think over this period of time, you've
had space to reflect on your own journey through this
and why these things happen and also what the purpose
of it was. And you know, when you look at
those portrayals on the internet, but now it's just ubiquitous,
hundreds of millions of downloads, and it's to me, it's
not the Dan Saunders that I'm coming to know now,

(20:51):
it's the projection of what people wanted to see there.
How do you feel when you look at the Dan
Saunders that's portrayed in those stories.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
I mean, half of them aren't factually correct, so.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
A bit of an issue there. But I don't really
mind what people write.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
I mean, it's it's funny if I cared about what
people thought about me, there's no way I would have
ever done something like the ATM thing, Like I don't
I don't really really have this thing where I've got
to be like, oh, I wonder what they think about me,
or I want to be this, or I want to
be that. It doesn't really come to me in any way,

(21:31):
like yeah, sure, I don't go after people like you know,
hurt people on a personal level.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
But if I can stick it to the man, then absolutely.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
I loved you for that. No one's taking it down.
They all loved you for it. That's that's the common theme.
And this is whatever, this is the secret dream, this is,
this is the escape acts. This is what everyone wants.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
You know.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
We'll talk about Allen Watts moving from one disliked self
image to something that you do want and who wouldn't
want to be the hero of the day, the Alaric.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
And the guy who sticks it to the man.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
No one wants to be the gambling addict, the guy
who's victed to risk the real story. Can you see
how that character in those stories is not really your
story at all?

Speaker 1 (22:11):
In that the facts of the same, Oh for sure.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
And I mean now that you tie in the gambler
you're almost sort of you're not really your person when
you're a gambler, you know, for a country that punts
so much and we've got so many gamblers, almost when
you're telling a story, it kind of gets distored to
the fact you're a gambler.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
It's like, well, oh, he's a gambler. Though he's a gambler,
it's like, yeah, but I'm still a person.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
And in the world, we love winning gamblers. Losing gamblers
are losers. We don't ready hear from them. We don't,
we don't, and they're unfortunately the kindling for this industry
in this country and around the world. But so while
you were a winner as such and you lived life
on your terms, I don't think any addicts would ever

(22:59):
say that they live their life on their own terms
when they're being directed by an addiction. And I feel
like that's the realization that you came to that at
that moment where you could transfer money from an account,
you didn't have to think, you know, you were compelled.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, And I know, like, look, I probably put
it to you that even down the track, when the
bank said we're going to come and get you, I
wanted to just say straight out that I expected them
to say, hey, Dan side in this NBA and don't
talk about it again. That's why I expected from the bank.

(23:34):
I didn't expect them to press charges against me. I
wasn't disappointed that they did, but I just didn't expect it.
I thought it would be too much of a storm.
And I mean, it's going to be a movie now.
The Bank's going to hear about this for the rest
of the earth.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
If it had a life, if it had a life.

Speaker 4 (23:49):
It had a life, yeah, if it had a heartbeat, no,
But the point is, I mean, if they hadn't told me,
you know, on certain terms, that hey, this is not
going to come back to.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
You, then I would have just walked away. But it
was the fact that I was getting.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
From the bank we're going to come and get you
spurred me to do this. Right.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
But I did this because I like risk, right.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
I love risk like I love gambling, maybe a little
bit too much. I'm not a victim of it. I'm
almost like a perpetrator of the gambling.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, Because typically victims of addiction speak in terms of
regret and sorrow for what they've done to their lives
other people, and they missed this part, which I think
is quite important to people's actual understanding.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
But how much fun the consumption.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Of the drugs or the gambling, or the risk, or
what sex or whatever it is, how much fun it was,
And if people were fair ink and we might be
able to see this thing a bit more clearly rather
than through the rose colored glasses as you're just a
loser in a week if you fall in that place.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
I remember when I went to the media and told
my story it was risky, and I liked that part.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
I was like, yeah, that's risky, as I'm going to
do it.

Speaker 4 (25:04):
And even in the county court when she was like,
you know, saying oh this and that, and you know,
we're not going to watch the video on YouTube, and
then she plays the exact video that's on YouTube.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
All of that.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
When I was sitting there, I was singing, well, if
I get five years here, I'll be lucky. And when
she gave me a year, I was like, Wow, you
hit the jackpot, you know, And it.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Was the same feeling as winning the jackpot. I was like, jeezus,
a year. Good stuff.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Wow, that's really interesting because now you can say you
took this risk saying I thought, I can get five
happy with one, get one. So the risk in a
sense sort of paid off, well the gamble.

Speaker 4 (25:45):
I mean, I don't know whether it paid off. I mean,
if I apply for a job, like the answer is no,
you know, I wouldn't say it paid off. Okay, but
but yeah, I mean it got the desired results I
want at the time, for sure.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
And I guess that's a feature of a risk addiction,
is it's about what you need at that moment the
next five minutes.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
That's what it is. And it's a quick outcome, you know,
relatively speaking. It's like, Okay, we're going to roll the
dice and then we're going to get an outcome perfect.
Let's do it again, bo Let's do it again. And
only once you understand that scarcy loop, you can see
it in a lot of things. Right, So the scarcy
loop is everywhere. Now, I'll leave it to Michael East

(26:31):
to be able to explain exactly what it is in
his words, but I think he's nailed it because it's
in Facebook likes, it's in Instagram. If you put a post,
you get you know, a little, you know, But they started.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Putting it everywhere. That's my addiction, he likes. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
So they started putting it everywhere though, so it's in
kids learning apps. It's like the old soft drink, you know,
truck thinking. You know the sound, right, you know the sound,
and then that sticks with you forever. Mister Whippi, you
know that, you know the you know the sound. All
these sounds, all these things, they seem like they're nothing,

(27:09):
but there's some very very smart people behind them, and
they understand exactly what they're doing.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
This recognition of an addiction to risk and gambling has
been a great clarifying moment for you, I think.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
And when I.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Look at the story again, the story is it's portrayed
and so and so forth, you know, and that people
almost represent you. It's confusing because on one level, it's
this naive every man bloke who stumbles on this thing,
but by the end he's transformed to this sort of
criminal mastermind.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
He's going to do all these things.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
And you wouldn't have done all these things and not
put some money away. And that's one of the tantalizing
questions for everybody who watches these videos. Dan must have
put some money aside. But I know addiction, whether it's
drugs or alcohol, gambling. At the end, there's never anything left, correct, Yeah, right, absolutely,

(28:05):
there's nothing left.

Speaker 4 (28:06):
You take it to the you take it to the end. Look,
I'm going to tell you right, there's nothing left. And
you think people are going to believe that anyway?

Speaker 1 (28:13):
They probably won't.

Speaker 4 (28:14):
Yeah, I could tell you I had, you know, five
million stash somewhere in a Cayman Island account and you
tell me I'm full of shit.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
I'd prefer to believe that to be as a journal
I'd prefer to believe that.

Speaker 4 (28:26):
But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, it's not it's not important. I've already
learned that if you give them the story, then you know,
if you give a court of law the story and
they don't really want to know the true story, they'll
just use that. So what's the point in saying, oh,
this is here, you're just going to get some pin
push or somewhere.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Well, listen, they didn't want to know it, period, they really,
they really didn't. But I think I'm talking about the
perception for people, you know, and this idea that you
see it kind of destroys the whole premise. If you
go through all the self destruction, family at risk, future destroyed,
all these things.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're getting pushed and pulled in the.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Media, end up going to jail linkable biggest belief that
you wouldn't have something tucked away, But it's only a
thought when you don't understand the nature of addiction, particularly gambling.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Well, pretty this far.

Speaker 4 (29:14):
I mean, I leave it a lot better house, and
I've got a lot more money in the bank.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Than I've ever had in my whole wife, So I
would say I'm doing better.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
None of it's the NABS, No, no.

Speaker 4 (29:28):
No, I wouldn't have a bank account with the NIBS
because you know, you'd probably just have money disappearing from it.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, so you're in a good place now, to be honest.

Speaker 4 (29:37):
Well, I mean I'm not some sort of high flyer
with a private generally, but yeah, yeah, but I'm only
in a better place because i understand myself a lot
better and I've actually been able to stand back and
take a snapshot.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Of what was going on and to be able to,
you know, to move on from that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
I'm just trying to stop myself idealizing this ending, right,
I'm trying to stop myself like I idealized this story
in the beginning.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
I got a little post note that we'll say completion.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
You're one of the things I have to complete and
to understand it fully, and your life just doesn't start again.
Now you're struggling with the purpose of your life and
the events to date, and it make sense to those
and go forward. And I think this self discovery about

(30:27):
the role of addiction to both gambling and risk is
driving you towards a much more sturdy purpose than anything
else that's come along.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah. Yeah, for sure, I want to start a gambling
retreat because I feel like I really understand gambling. You know,
I was listening to Helping Easy talk about gambling in
he doesn't get what gambling is. He doesn't really understand,
he doesn't grasp exactly what it is. He sort of

(30:58):
stands there talking about two people running between rocks, and
you know that we've always had gambling and all.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
This kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (31:04):
I think it's never been tied to society in such
a way that it is now, you know, even the
you know, the things like I think he made some
examples like, oh, you know, two people want to have
a bet on a horse race, then that's their business.
But we're sort of far beyond that, like it's in
trench now, and I don't think people actually understand how

(31:27):
far the tentacles go. You know, I read some stuff
from the Gratton Institute and sort of you know, people
who are doing research into this, but I don't think
they really realize how far it goes. Like I think
they just sort of, you know, they get that it
goes deep. But you know, the whole conversation around you know,
gambling ants at the moment. You know, yeah, sure I'm

(31:50):
not I'm not anti gambling at all, but I reckon
people should be allowed to do it, but the kids
probably shouldn't see it. A kid who's fourteen probably shouldn't know,
you know, exactly how to tie multi together or you
know whatever. Think already the culture in Australia is that
they want to go to the casino when they turn eighteen. Anyway,
they want to get a sports better camp. But you

(32:11):
go and ask it's not about going to the pub
for a piss up. It's like I can't wait till
aden and I'm gonna get sports better camp.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (32:19):
You know, because I like Daisy Thomas or you know,
I like Billy brownas or whatever, you know what I mean.
It's so entrenched, but it's also intrenched in ways that
you don't like. The gambling industry, they've been largely underestimated, right,
So Tom Waterhouse came into you know, people's laund rooms
on the footing right, talking about odds, talking about races

(32:40):
the next day. Case whole mo is to basically join
up gambling propositions. So they try and join racing to
football and vice versa. So there's a product for every
moment of the day. So that's how they want you

(33:01):
to bet. So it doesn't matter how much you're bet
at the start, just a dollar or five dollars or whatever,
but they ultimately want you to bet on the footy
on Friday night and then wake up and think about
what you're going to bet on Saturday, the racers, then
the footy on Saturday night.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Then that comes.

Speaker 4 (33:19):
Into you know, if you get real interested, then two
am there's some badminton.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
They call it next to go a gambler.

Speaker 4 (33:25):
So basically it's all the way that they do it
is they join it together. They're actually over there in
America trying to join up racing and American sport right now,
Like that's their big thing, and it's it's super smart.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
It's like if you have the n of L season,
right and people.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
Bet on that, they've always bet on that, but then
you have the NBA season, there's nothing to link it, right,
So what they try and do is they try and
link everything together. So it's more like a slot machine,
you know, it's more this continuous thing that just keeps going.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
So that's their emma. Basically, they want to make non.

Speaker 4 (33:59):
Gamblers light gamblers, and then make light clamblers medium gamblers,
and then medium gamblers heavy gamblers.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
That's pretty much what they want to do.

Speaker 4 (34:09):
Like if you ask anyone in advertising, that's pretty much
what the gambling industry want to do.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
You know.

Speaker 4 (34:14):
That's fine, Like for people who are of age, you know, obviously,
you know you've lived your life long enough for you
should have someone around telling you, you know, maybe the
problems that can come up as a result of gambling
and all this. But the issue is that this stuff's everywhere.
So the same sounds there is on a slot machine,

(34:35):
and that same scarcity loop is in the actual games
that are part of the school curriculum. People just sort
of look at it and go, it's just a funny game.
It's got funny sounds. But the same game designers are
actually designing poker machines and slot games online. And also

(34:57):
they're doing kids learning apps, so they're putting in the
same sounds in the learning app as what are in
the poking and then the stories that are involved in
the learning apps then later on become poker machines. Whether
it's by design or not, I don't know, but the
point is it's just become so normal.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
You talk about fifteen being an important age, and I
always thought this was an important age for you, but
we never got to the bottom of it. Why really,
Because at fourteen and a half you lost your dad
very suddenly. And I think what you're talking about now
is an appeal to parents. Again, this is not about
saying my life would have been different had this not happened.

(35:41):
But I think you've got some clarity about that event
and what you faced when you're making sense of these
things in the world. Your mum was still there battling
away trying to raise your dad was gone. You had
to make a lot of these decisions yourself. When you
talk about that. Yeah, I can talk about that.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
I used to love footy, right, and I used to
go to the footy all the time and always go
with dad and he take me to training and stuff
like that.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
So I think that all just ended. So what was
he like? It's beautiful. Yeah, he's beautiful man.

Speaker 4 (36:12):
I loved him. Yeah, still thinking about him all the time.
But the point is, you know, people, people die and
things happen.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
What are your memories of it?

Speaker 4 (36:20):
I just always just always full of joy, just always. Yeah,
you love to drink. I don't think you punted. I'm
not sure, but he just was left the party. Yeah,
just a really sort of outgoing guy who got on
with everyone and just had a great time.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
I mean, at that age, the father is very important. Fourteen.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
You're becoming a prototype young man at fourteen and.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
A half fifteen, and.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
So I guess that moral or practical guidance or whatever
you want to call it, when you remove that all
of a sudden. Yeah, and Mum's I mean, Mums, she's
a beautiful warman. She's did everything she possibly could for you.
But these were things you're going to walk through pretty
much on your own. You know, what impact did that have?

Speaker 4 (37:03):
From that age, do you think, Well, I think I
definitely found a crutch in like having a punt and
stuff like that, and it was so normal. I mean,
back then it was so normal. You know, you'd have
to sweep at school.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
You know, literally it's good for the Melbourne cupany, Yeah,
it's the teacher to do it, you know.

Speaker 4 (37:20):
I remember in the North Melbourne tab when I was
fifteen in my school uniform, you know, the science teacher,
mister Kuma. You know, they're punting as well, and you
know it was sort of like, you know, just a
little secret, you know. And that was a few of us,
it wasn't just me. Yeah, so just how yeah, just
how normal it is. But I mean, I think the
point with all this stuff is that you know, you
can get hung up on gambling.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
All of this can lead to a gaming addiction or
a risk addiction, I think, more more broadly, a risk cher. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
You've got these fourteen year olds, you know who won't
leave their house because they're playing video games. Yeah, if
you had a caught it earlier and known what this is,
then you know the parents might not be having such
an issue now.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, because when we started this new discussion you did
say a few times that I would like to classic structure.
I'll have a conversation with my fifteen year old self.
And what would that conversation be. I mean, particularly that
fifteen year old self has lost a very strong guiding
force in his life, his own father.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
I mean, the fifteen year old self.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
Look, so when you lose someone close to you, you
just want to live every day, you know, like at
you last and then growing up, I lost a couple
of really good mates early so to eighteen, and yeah,
that just reinforced that.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah I was.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
I was just having fun, just basically working as much
as I needed to live and having fun the.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Rest of the time.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
You know. But you go to bars and restaurants and
stuff in Melbourne here, and there's a lot of people
doing the same thing.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
It's not out of the ordinary.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Where it gets out of the ordinary, though, is when
you're confronted with an opportunity like the ATM and you
don't stop, you don't even hesitate really.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
Well for sure.

Speaker 4 (38:56):
But I think there's a lot of people on the
cusp of that, you know, if they were given that opportunity.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, I actually know that this is true.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
I'm not just you know, I'm not just sit back going, Oh,
you know, everyone would do it if they had a chance.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
And I know everyone wouldn't do it, but a lot
of people would.

Speaker 4 (39:10):
I know because they messaged me and I read comments
online and they say I would have done it, but
I would have done it better, and this is how
I would have done it.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
You know.

Speaker 4 (39:19):
So you can't really tell unless you're in the position
what you'd actually do in that circumstance.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
But well, yeah, I don't think that you don't, but
you don't actually know.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
I thought that was the pivotal question out of the
whole thing, Like, you know, when faced with the same situation,
do we all have this seed of larceny in us?

Speaker 1 (39:35):
And we go and do it? You know?

Speaker 2 (39:36):
And out of a time, I realized that very few
people would do it. A lot of people will talk
about it, particularly what they would do with the money
when it came to that stepping over the threshold and
in a sense becoming somebody else not so sure, Yeah
you stepped over it.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Why are you different? I don't know. I think it's
just a certain point.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
I think a lot more people, especially the victim matters,
matters who it is so I think there's enough people
to hate banks who would actually do it and sort
of you know, like the equation online is in one
point six million for a year.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
You know, you did well.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
But of course I wasn't thinking about the equation at
the time, but ultimately I was.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
You know, I think I told you why I stopped before.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
I mean, ultimately I thought I was just adding to
my prison sentence every single transaction I made, So you know,
that's the reason I stopped. So I thought, well, he's
still quite young. You don't want to go to jail
for too long, so you know. But it wasn't because
you know, I felt remorse for the bank or anything
like that. Like in a lot of ways, I wish
I was a you know, souless entity so I could

(40:44):
just keep.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Going forever because you would do it again. Well, I
feel I deserve it, you know.

Speaker 4 (40:50):
I reckon that society hates banks that much that if
an alternative comes along, it's feasible and people can do
it by.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Themselves, they will take it. But they don't go down, No,
they don't. There's that bank robbers, right.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
You know a lot of people would fantasize about running
into a bank with a gun. Maybe they don't, but
some people do, but they never do it. People want
these highly charged moments where they're in control of their destiny,
where they do whatever, where they would like to have
all time and escape my hand, the life that I
kin'd of hate and these things I hate about myself,
you know, But they don't do it. And one thing

(41:26):
I never understood, and it bothered me a bit, to
be perfectly honest, your friends came along for this, all
this partying, all this stuff, gambling, the rest of it.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
You were the one going to jail, and they.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Were happily singing at the table one day, Dan's going
to jail, but not tonight or whatever the song was.
You know, I'm thinking, didn't they realize what was happening?
Didn't they realize that they were cheering you towards your demise.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
The best thing that anyone ever told me was some
Spanish backpacker. He used to call me Jesus, and I'd
be like, what are you talking about? It? Like you
an idiot? What are you saying? Like I'm Jesus And
he goes, no, you're Jesus, And I'm like, mate, I'm
not Jesus. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Just stop calling me Jesus. And he was, you know,

(42:16):
he was drunk and high and whatever. So he just
kept coming back at me all night. You know, hey,
there's Jesus. You're Jesus. You're nailing yourself to the cross,
so we can all party. That's what he said. And
I was like, yeah, well, I still don't think I'm Jesus,
but I can see you're analogy. Now, I can see
what you what you mean by that. But the point

(42:38):
was I'm not a victim in any of these. You
know when people do something and then they look back
on it and they go, oh, I wish I didn't
do that. I was just you know, they made me
do it, or this made me do it. It's so weird.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
I can't. I can't operate like that. It's not it's
not okay for me. I'm like, I'm all.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
About self responsibility. You go to take responsibility for your
own actions.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
That's it. I can't understand how people just sit.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Back and go, oh, yeah, it was just that, and
you know they got me in you know, that was it. Yeah, okay,
there is a point where they try and get you.
But also, you have a bit of self responsibility in
that way. You got to go, you know, draw on
in the sand, move forward from it. Go No, No,
I was in that too. That was my responsibility. I've
got to move on. I've got to mend the bridge.

(43:27):
I've got to go forward and not look back and
not lament and not worry. It's fine. I'll just learn
from it and I'll move forward. That's it, you know.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
I'm all about that. I'm not about going.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
Oh you know, you know my dad died, and you know,
then this happened, and then this happened.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
What a story? What a sob store. Well, I'm not
calling it a sob story.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
I'm just saying that these are the milestones along the
journey which you can't change, and they did have an impact.
But I also see your father's influence as well in
the sense of atonement and taking responsibility, and I was
really that did kick in. I don't want to think
it's just because if you're in jail you could gamble.

Speaker 4 (44:06):
Oh that's that was one of the one of the
good things about being in jail that you couldn't gamble.
But you know that's not true either, because you know
they've got racing dot Com on you know, twenty four
to seven there, and you know you can always get
a bet on this summer, so it's not really true.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
I'm betting with cigarettes and so forth at everything, but
who's going to get released next?

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Or anything? You can bet with real money, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
They've got people, you know, they've got partners who are
putting on the bets, you know, and hey, I'm not
against that.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
So we you're gambling in jail.

Speaker 4 (44:36):
No, no, I didn't gamble in jail, but only because
I didn't want to get into the politics with people
who are going to rip my head off, you know
what I mean. Smart, Like you know, I've worked in
nightclubs and stuff, and like you you know, as soon
as you walk in, you know who the people are
who are going to cause trouble in there. And if

(44:56):
anyone came to me and was like, oh, you want
to do this tear, I was like, oh no, I.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Don't have any money. That's it. I can't you know,
I can't pay, so I don't want it, thanks very much.

Speaker 4 (45:05):
But the point is if you get in with it,
playing a game with your life. These people don't stuff
around like This isn't like the taxi line on you know,
outside crown on It Sunday morning, where people have a
bit of a push and shove.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
This is like straight into it.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
I'm not ready to get my head caved in, you
know for some bullshit you know, bendigo raise five or
you know, and my partner or you know, someone I've
got on the outside, you know, misses the bus and
doesn't make it to the fucking tab to put the
money in the tab account.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Now, no, I'm not. I'm into risk, but not like that,
not dumb risk.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
Well yeah, maybe that's so, But it did. It did
prevent you from gambling in there, and it gave you
some perspective on your gambling. And I guess you know,
most people coming out of jail come out with a plan.
They've had a moment of sobriety if it's been drugs
or alcohol, and they've got themselves together, taken up programs,
and they've got some lucidity about their life and they're
going to have a plan. And you came out and

(46:04):
you know, it wasn't long before the temptation was there.
What actually happened?

Speaker 4 (46:09):
Yeah, well I had to put I had to put
a lot of work into it. It's not like it's
not like it just changed overnight and then that's it, Like,
you know, I just learned about what my behavioral pattern was.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
But also some of your old friends contacted you. Yeah, yeah,
a lot of my old friends did.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
The friends.

Speaker 4 (46:26):
I will say about the friends the friends at the time.
Can you imagine how crazy it was? So you so
you've got a group of friends and you discover that
you can transfer millions of dollars in your bank account,
you know, and people say, oh, you know, you can
only transfer six figures.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
How does that make a minion?

Speaker 4 (46:40):
Well, if you put in nine hundred thousand, and then
you put in another nine hundred, that's one point eight,
and then if you do it again, that's two point seven,
and then if you do it then that's three point six,
and that's how it turns into millions.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Right, So you can transfer.

Speaker 4 (46:53):
Money up to nine hundred and ninety nine thousand, but
you can do it more than once. So I think
that's a misconception that sometimes people. So that's basically what happened. Right,
So then you show you friends that what do you do?
I mean, there was a strategy there, like it wasn't
It wasn't brains trust Google, think tank type stuff. But
there was a strategy, right. So I said to everyone

(47:16):
that we are just going to have the time of
our lives. And I will never say that any of
you were involved, because to me, what's the point of
dragging someone else down with you. I mean, it was
my card, my name, that was just me. Now it
happened someone else in my group of friends, and they

(47:38):
said that, then I'd go along for the ride because
I know that they know what they're dealing with. They
got their head around. But didn't anyone say damn mate,
Yeah they did. They did, and they said I can't
come with you, Dan, because I think you're going to
get in real trouble for this. You know, I love you,
but I'm not in it amount, you know. Yeah, people
did absolutely, And yeah, I mean I respected that at

(48:02):
the time one hundred percent. Like I didn't go, oh,
you know you or whatever, you know, like I said, yeah,
no worries, like I understand it's not.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
For everyone, but yeah, the most remarkable one. Man.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Let's not single people that I don't want to but
I mean I think, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean,
in particular was your close, close friend. He really encouraged
you to take it to the instagree, and then he
ends up a prison guard.

Speaker 4 (48:29):
Yeah yeah, but I mean, look at the end of
the day, I mean he might change the names. He
might have a real career there now. So at the
end of the day, I mean, I'm not into that either.
I'm not into like putting someone in, you know, the
situation and now they're you know, a manager a prison
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Like, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
No, it's not about that. But all I'm saying is
that you prepared to go along to this place where
you know, you kind of knew your mates wouldn't be
and you expressly didn't want them to stand with you.
And you know, I think as a friend, i'd be
saying and I'd be one of those I'd say, Dan,
I can't come with you.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah. You know.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
It's like when you came to me and said, can
you help me atone for this? And I didn't want
to Initially, like all my friends had some information about this,
and they all said, listen, the bank's giving it up,
they're moving on, you know, And I didn't want to
be that person. I didn't want to be that person,
and alt I didn't, but I just wonder, you know,
how you feel about those relationships now.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Do you still talk to people from that era? Yeah,
for sure.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
I mean it's whoever I don't speak to.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
It's not my decision that we don't speak anymore.

Speaker 4 (49:37):
Basically, they a lot of people would be scared because,
like I mean, there was a guy in our friends group.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
He works at the court.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
You know, Like it's not like they would turn around
and be like, oh, that's okay, Like he'd lose his job.
You know, guy's a chiropractor. Like he doesn't want that
in the news or anywhere. Like I understand that, Like
there's this whole work cancel culture. Now, you know, you
instantly if you're you know, if you're involved in something

(50:10):
you know it's unsavory. Oh that's it for you. You're
sort of done. So you understand how people are. I mean,
I get that.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
Do you feel like that that you're sort of done
that you can't a lot of things that are closed
to you?

Speaker 4 (50:23):
Now, Oh yeah, there's a lot of things are closed,
but there's a whole lot that's open though, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
And so yeah, I mean, you've got to just take
the good with the bad. Yeah. Sure. If I send a.

Speaker 4 (50:34):
Resume to know the hotel, they're going to be like,
piss off, we don't want you working here. If I
sent one to the tab and said, hey, can I
be a tab operator? Pretty sure i'd know the answer.
If I wanted to work for the government, I doubt
I could. If I wanted to be a police officer, I.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Doubt I could. So there's a lot of things that
are sort of off the.

Speaker 4 (50:56):
Table, but there are a lot of things that are
on the table as well.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
So I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It's
it's just the nature of it what it is.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
I think the outcome is still in play in my opinion.
It's what you do with that experience and information and
insight that makes a difference now, because you could have
just gone on telling the same true story that didn't
ever reveal your true motivation and the issue that began this.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
You could have kept doing that, but you've had the
courage not to do that.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
And I hope and sincerely pray that you turn this
into something positive, And I think it's around government advocacy
because you do bring a.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
New approach to it.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
And I like the fact that you're honest about what
gambling really is. I just don't buy the normal hand
ringing of the established anti gambling experts that gambling is
crack cocaine. You have one punt and your dead sort
of thing, and it's a pernicious thing. You'll lose all
possible motivation and ability to resist it.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
That's just garbage. It's not working. No, it's not working.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
And I think you said it's really what you do
with it, because that is very that's very Australian.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
You know, that's the castle, but it's what you've done
with it. And that's exactly you know, you go.

Speaker 4 (52:15):
Back to Dale, Carrigan, you know, you know who's three
high View, Crescent Cooler. I think it is. It's very Australians.
They're not just rissyles. It's what you do with it.
Like I mean, I could turn around and go, oh
I can't get a job now, you know, it's all shit,
Oh my god, my life's over.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I know, you just move on. The fact is I.

Speaker 4 (52:35):
Know a lot about gambling because I've spent the last
thirty years around it, so I know what it is.
And there's a lot of people talking about it who
don't actually know what it is, you know, so the
Prime Minister's won, but also other people, so other people
in research, they don't actually know what it's like to gamble.

(52:58):
And you know, like all respect to the people who
you know talking about it now, like Tim Costal, he's
worked in the anti gam the industry for ages, but
it is saying the same lines. It's like breakfast TV,
the same lines over and over again, and.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
People just switched off.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Well because listen, it's like the Nancy Reagan's just say
no to drugs, right, Okay, that's so simplistic and ridiculous.
The fact is people do enjoy to change this state
of consciousness. They do enjoy to gamble, They do enjoy
these things. It's about doing it in a mindful way
where we're aware of the drivers and how enmeshed we

(53:38):
are in a system. But it's pretty much said the
governments in agreement with the gambling industry, this shall happen.
So we won't see national bands, we won't see more funding,
we won't see scrutiny on is.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
This appropriate for kids? Kind of issues like you're.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
Raising well, the big thing that everyone says, you know,
if you read the card and you read all these papers.
They say that Australia and the government have a gambly addiction, right,
that's what they say, But they don't actually understand what
that means, you know, So listening to the prom is
to talk about it, talks about you know, like there

(54:13):
was a letter sort of read to him and you
know he was like, oh, we feel very sorry for
you know, that father and that mother and all that,
and you know, but as you can see, gambling's been
around for a very very long time, and you know,
it's obviously an age old issue that we've got to
deal with here in Australia. But the point is that
it wasn't always tied to the freedom we are TV market.

(54:37):
It's progressed since then. But when you've got a gambling problem,
you don't actually think it's a problem until it's probably
too late.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Right.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
So the government now is still in the point where
it's all still a bit sexy because it's like, oh, well,
it gives us cash and it's a great revenue raiser
and yeah, we've got to keep a few people happy,
but ultimately, you know, it's just about the victims. So
we've got to help the victims, but they don't realize
that it actually erodes society.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
What would you say, I mean, obviously, people like I
said before, I've looked at this story.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
It's gone around the world. It's a huge it's an
urban legend.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Now, how do you feel about particularly with the understanding
you have now you've got this clarity about it, and
you look at the way that story is presented, do
you think it's If you had a chance to tell
it again, would you tell it this way or would
you tell it the way it's been told?

Speaker 1 (55:39):
I think that hindsight, it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 4 (55:41):
And he always understands things more from perspective, and you
give think space and you come to terms with them.
Because I don't dwell on the past. I'm actually fine
with the way that everything's played out. I don't get
up in the morning and go, oh, wish I didn't
do this or wish I didn't do that. Okay, I
mean I wouldn't have met the people I know now

(56:02):
if I didn't do that thing. I wouldn't know who
my true friends are now without doing that thing, and
I don't have this desire to be It surprised me
how far this story's gone, and I don't have this
desire to be known worldwide. I don't want to walk
into somewhere and everyone know who I am. In fact,

(56:22):
i'd actually like it if that wasn't the case, because
I'm not you know, I'm not interested in living that.
You know, back when I was twenty nine, one hundred percent, I.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Was ready for the movie. I was ready for everything.

Speaker 4 (56:36):
You know, I was going to get some crazy you know,
boy band sort of numbers.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
You know, I was going to go real well.

Speaker 4 (56:42):
But now I'm not done, Like my hair is thinning,
but it's all over. You know, for me, it's not
about that. Life's not about that stuff anymore. So it's
almost like it's a little bit of an inconvenience if
it does blow up, because then.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
I'll have you know, I have people where I live.

Speaker 4 (56:58):
At home, going oh, I don't want you to go
there and do that. You know that doesn't seem like,
you know, that's very productive for our life. But in
saying that, I'm not complaining about it, it's just no,
you've never complained it.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
You've never complained and as I say, I mean, you've
taken control of your story because you know, when I
look back, and I realized that as much as I
was trying to tell your story, you were always telling it,
and you did not understand or fully grasp the significance
of it. And it's taken this time of reflection to
get where you are now. That to me is a

(57:31):
wonderful thing, you know, And I think if it's to
understand how that can help somebody else, not be a victim,
but at least make your experience help somebody else have
some clarity that it's a pretty good outcome.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
And I think, I look at you now, you look
so much better than when I first even met you.

Speaker 4 (57:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yeah, for sure, you were not in a good place,
my friend. And you came to me and you said,
the reason why I'm doing this is I want to
get my life back under my control. Here we are
ten years down the track. What does life look like?
Are you still gambling?

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Is it in control?

Speaker 4 (58:05):
Role?

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Where are we after that ten year period? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (58:08):
Well, I just understand. I think anyone who has an addiction,
you either don't get the chance to sit back and
look at it from afar like you're always in it,
and then if you don't do that, you end up
killing yourself, or you end up doing something stupid, or
you end up in jail, whatever it is. You know,

(58:29):
people have got a gambi addiction. You're either bankrupt, in jail,
or dead or all three. So on two out of
three right, not bad odds right, yeah, not bad, but
I'm glad. But the point is that it's a negative

(58:49):
ending usually Now, unless you have the fortitude or the
internal ability to be able to absorb all that and
then come out the other end, then you're done.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
That's it for you.

Speaker 4 (59:02):
Now through like work with people who've gambled, and you know,
going and going and helping. And we did a documentary
about a gentleman that passed away because of gambling, and like,
it's just speaking to people who have an issue with
it or have had an issue with it. It is

(59:22):
quite an insidious thing, right, And I think society's view
of gambling, if you're not a gambler, you don't understand
about gambling.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Your view of it.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
Is like the Simpsons, Right, So Marge gets a gambling problem.
Homer says, I think you've got a problem money, and
she goes, what are you talking about? I don't have
any issues, no problem. Now he's spending a lot of
time with the casino. I think you've got a problem,
and she goes, no, no, I'm fine, and then she
brings back sixty dollars and home.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
He goes, I am got a problem.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
You're fine, right, Since she goes back there and eventually
obviously she loses at all, and then she says, you
know what, Homer, I think I do have a problem.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
I think I need some serious help.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
And Homer says, no, no, no, diorry about that costs money.
Just don't do it anymore, right, And that's pretty much
how society sort of looks at it, and then it
gets sort of distorted.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Well, ultimately, you've got to be true to oneself. And
here's the test. A person comes to you and says, Dan,
I've gone to the ATM and the same things available
to me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
I like a punt, I like a bit of risk.
What do I do? The YouTube you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Would say, go for it one day, only chance, knock
yourself out, But the real you doesn't say that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Yeah, yeah, what does he say?

Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
Now? Well, with the whole gambling thing, and this goes
for anyone who's addicted to food or whatever it is,
all you're going to do is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Remove the desire.

Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
As soon as you feel like you're going without, you're
in big trouble, big trouble. If you abstain from something,
then you're gone like that. That is not the way
to deal with it. The way is to tackle the desire.
So the way I basically didn't gamble anymore is that
I went to the start of my life when I

(01:01:13):
wasn't a gambler, you know, because I don't think I'm
a gambler. That's not how I say, you know, I
say I'm Dan, you know, like, yeah, I like to
gamble sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Yeah, don't we all, you know what I mean? Like,
it's not I.

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
Don't identify myself as that society, would you know, like
after you know the pod, you listen.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
To the podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:01:30):
Yet I was a gambler, you know, Like, But the
point is there was a time when I didn't gamble.
So I just went back there and I went to
you know, the the guy who used to build mini
golf courses in the backyard, you know what I mean,
And I differentiated the difference between false pleasure and genuine pleasure, right,

(01:01:52):
so that used to give me absolute genuine pleasure to
build those minigolf courses.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
Loved it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:57):
Had the cans of Campbell soup, you know, hollowed out,
and used to use them as windmills.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Yeah, I tried. I tried, wasn't you know.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
But I had these big sort of iron things where
I can pack the soil and you know, make it like,
you know, like it was a real mini golf course.
He used to love it, used to do it for hours.
But the point is that was my last link to
genuine pleasure, Okay, used to I didn't get anything out

(01:02:28):
of it other than an accomplishment of doing something. So
all this other stuff is all fabricated pleasure. It's all
stuff the mister whippie like, you know, the the overeating, like,
it's all examples of just false pleasure. But what happens
is when they mix the genuine pleasure with the false pleasure. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
So you know, for.

Speaker 4 (01:02:50):
Example, I would say sports a bit bet with mates, right,
So you love your mates, right, You want to be
a part of life with your mates. You don't want
to miss out on your stuff with your mates. So
it's perfect, right because it's mixing genuine pleasure with the
false high that the gambling gives you, right, or you know,
like it's been having for years with food, right, But

(01:03:11):
once you understand that and have a relationship with that
and go, is this a real pleasure or is it
just like do I know this person just because we
go to the races together?

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Or is there more to it?

Speaker 4 (01:03:24):
If I removed the pineapple donut? What I still sit
there with this dude?

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
You know what I mean? If you really question it
and go, why the hell am I doing this? Right?
But if you really.

Speaker 4 (01:03:36):
Tap into that, you've got to be in the position
where you can ask yourself the question. Though, like if
you're high and in the loop, there's no chance you're
going to be able to ask this question. You know,
you need to be able to stop the said behavior
for however long. And this is yeah, this doesn't necessarily
just mean gambling. This is like you know, getting fat,

(01:03:56):
or this.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Is really insightfuled and it's really insightl It's the insight that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Only comes with age. Welcome to your middle age. It's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
But I think the key question I've dealt with this
with other people who have dealt with addictions, and it's
about replacing that joy and how do you find.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Something that's going to meet that same high and the
heights of the joy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Yeah, like imagine, like imagine like when you are when
you know, like the YouTube's present and I present it
as well, here's this infinite money. If money will solve problems,
then this infinite money, who knows what can happen?

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
That joy must have been extraordinary.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
And what it is is basically everything that makes you
feel bad afterwards is not a genuine pleasure. It's a
false pleasure, right because genuine pleasure you can only feel good.
You can only look back on it and go, that
was the best. That's why it works so well because
there might have been times when the genuine gets mixed

(01:04:55):
with the false, like you might have been with your
best mate who you loved and you were doing lines
of cocaine and that might have been the best ninety life. Right.
But the point is it works so well because it's
mixed together. Right, So if you can't differentiate, but the
difference between that, you know, if you can't just go,
I loved my mate, he was the best.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Because x y Z's head.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
If it always involves cocaine, then ultimately it wasn't true.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
And you'll know that once you get further along, you'll
know that because you'll be able to look back on
it and go, Okay, yeah, I didn't really love him
that much.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
I just loved what we did together.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Yeah, Because I mean, this could be the moment where
you acknowledge someone who's been quite influential on You're not
me because it's taken up a long time for you
to get to this understanding, and I think you've had
some really high quality discussions with someone close in your
life that's helped you get to this point.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Do you want to talk about that? No?

Speaker 4 (01:05:49):
Really, no, I didn't think so, but yeah, I mean,
it all takes it, all takes work. I'll say that,
you know what I mean. It's like I'm always wary
of like I will talk about me one hundred percent
all the time, but it's when it's like when bringing
other peace, I'm very respectful of that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Like I won't just bring someone in.

Speaker 4 (01:06:08):
If they don't want to be in, then I don't
bring them in, you know, of course, yeah, of course,
Like I've come to these realizations based on you know,
my experiences after you jail and the glitch and all that.
But the point is that if I can get there.
Anyone can get there. Like if you're going through an

(01:06:28):
addiction right now and think you can't get there, like
you literally can't.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Anyone can't.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
It's just whether you choose to stick out, not the addiction,
the getting over it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
So you're not gambling, no, not drinking. No, I don't drink.
I don't drink.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
I don't gamble like not so the excesses that are
used to you know what I mean I mentioned to
you before.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
There's this whole thing.

Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
About, oh, you can't do anything again for the rest
of your life. That is prison. It's prison. You're putting
yourself in prison. What I do is I removed desire.
I no longer have desire. I can go and sit
in a tab with my friends all day and not bet.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
That is like unheard of. They look at me and
they go, who are you?

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
But is that like sitting next to the smoker and
inhaling their nine watching all the sounds.

Speaker 4 (01:07:25):
But I mean, if you're not having the bets, if
it's not impacting your pocket, then it's not the same thing.
I know because I can I can tell you the
exact part of my brain that ignites when it's happening,
so I know exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
What it is.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
But the point is you don't live your life in
a bubble. That's not a solution. It's not a solution. Yeah,
you identify the people who are going to take you
off course and don't have your best interests at hart.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
There's plenty of those.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
There's plenty of those who literally won't sit there with
you and if you don't have a line, then you're
dead to them. There's plenty of those people. But what
it is is differentiating those people. Because there's good in
all your connections and all your friendships. But the point
is that you don't need that stuff as a principle.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
I'm not saying ban enerthy.

Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
I'm saying, just understand why you do it, and then
that will help you to know, you know, don't just
think that you're a week loser just because you're doing
something like it's psychology with this stuff. It goes back
to like caveman stuff, like we love to press buttons
and like you know, do things for ourselves. We love

(01:08:32):
to do that, and that's what all this stuff is.
It's all based on that there's people smarter than us
that are planning all this stuff. And they're making money
off it, right, But you know they call gambling entertainment rights.
This is the biggest, like amazing thing in the world.
They call it entertainment. Sixty percent of the cash comes

(01:08:54):
from people spending too much, you know what I mean, Like,
that's how much comes from it. It's not people betting
ten bucks on a Friday night. It's people getting over
the top and involve and at the end of the day,
they don't really want to talk about it because it's embarrassing,
don't They don't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
That's not embarrassing. That's what we want to talk about.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
But the point is, right, they call it entertainment. If
you go and film fifty people at the Penrith Panthers
or playing the Pokey's right, you will see a bunch
of unkept, tired, anxiety ridden people who are.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
Not having a good time. They might tell you they are.

Speaker 4 (01:09:38):
But if you look in their eyes, they're not okay, right,
And I'll tell you why because you can go and
film them, and then I can go to the footy
on the weekend, I could go anywhere people go to
have a good time, and you're going to be able
to tell me without knowing anything about them. You're going
to be able to tell me which ones the gamblers are.

(01:10:00):
And that's the real message. Huh.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
I've been looking in.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
Your eyes for ten years, Dan, and I see something different.
I see a sparkle, I see something different. Do we
eventually leave atm Boy and that Dan Saunders behind. Do
we eventually recognize that the story was slightly different, at
least in the motivation of it. And do we try

(01:10:28):
to let people know who look at that story to
say it's not the way, or don't make the same
mistake I made, or be aware?

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
What is your.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
Message to someone who looks at the story which is
now a global thing. You're no longer at it. I
don't own it anymore. It's now a thing of the world.
I don't think it's part of the solution. I think
it's reinforcing the problem. As if gambling is a way
to a miraculous future, something's going to change your life fundamentally.
You're not going to be mediocre anymore. You're going to

(01:10:59):
be a winner and your experience I mean when it
becomes a loser eventually in gambling, well.

Speaker 4 (01:11:06):
I mean that you know they say the house always wins,
and I think that that's the way the government, you know,
the House, the House in Canberra feels about it as well.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
But you got to understand that.

Speaker 4 (01:11:17):
You know, like, yeah, the house can always win, but
occasionally a shark comes along and cleans you up. You know,
like you talk about carry back up. You know, he
bankrupted a few casinos back in the day. It is doable.
It's not like, you know, it's always you know, it's
always going to be the way. You know, I believe
their business model, you know, is ultimately flawed, you know,

(01:11:38):
because they don't pay the winners. You know, people who
win consistently, they cut them off. But you don't reckon
someone's going to come up with some idea and go, okay,
well I'm going to find all these people they cut
off and we're going to turn all the losing accounts
into the winning accounts. You don't reckon someone's going to
do that on a global scale. Now they might try

(01:12:00):
and stop them, but ultimately, you know, with things like
the blockchain and all sorts of things, you're not going
to be able to know what's coming. They're not going
to know what hit. This is dangerous talk, Dan. We've
just got you through because this is.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
But you're right, and I think the point is the
addiction to risk, the addiction to game, the addiction to
whatever it is, doesn't go away. You understand your name it,
you live with it, and what does life look like
from here on for you?

Speaker 4 (01:12:24):
Look, I think you know like you ask me what
people get from the story or what I want people
to understand from the story. The beauty about stories is
I can have an intention about a story, or I
can tell you what I think it is, but ultimately
it's up to you what you make of it. Ask Jesus.
There's plenty of interpretations of that story, right. The point

(01:12:46):
is that I tell my story like transparently. I don't
have any attachment as to what you or anyone else
gets from it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
I'm just telling it. I'm a man in the world and.

Speaker 4 (01:12:59):
I've been through his easy experiences and it's maybe who
I am today. And you might think I'm an idiot,
and that's fine. That's for you to feel like. It's
not a problem to me. It doesn't affect my moving
forward in the world. I don't have an attachment to
how you feel about me. But the point is that

(01:13:19):
there might be something in my story that you can
relate to your own life. You might be doing a
job that you don't believe in, there is another way
you can stop doing it. And if you're ultimately not
scared about not having any money for a while or
being seen as a loser for.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
A while, you can change that.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
That's the biggest thing that I hope that people get
from the story is that if you don't like the
course of your life, you can go, well, I don't
actually like this, I don't want to be a part
of it anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
I'm going to draw a line in the sand, and
I'm not going to do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
I think it's a perfect place to stop, you know,
to be honest, and I want to thank you for
your friendship over this decade and trust in telling this story,
because if I hadn't had this conversation, the earlier stories
would have bugged me to my grave because I never
understood them.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
I never understood why such a nice guy as you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
I've seen so many crooks go to this path, but
their crooks and their career criminals who that's what their
choice is.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
But you never chose that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
And I'm so glad that you got through at this
stage with the insight, just to settle it. I think
that's a completion of this story and I'm really glad
for that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Thank you very much, Ah Nora as well.

Speaker 4 (01:14:30):
And look, Adam, I really feel that there was really
no one There was really no one else to tell
this story. I mean, yeah, you were reluctant at the
start to tell because you were so worried about what
was going to happen to me. But I think at
a certain point you understood that I wanted to tell
the story and that was my right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
I was able to tell the.

Speaker 4 (01:14:48):
Story, and you know, I don't feel like anyone else
would have been able to bring it to light the
way that you did.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Yeah, but the story.

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
At the same time, I was overwhelmed by my own
perception of it, which was.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
The golden ticket. Yeah, magical thing. Why this, you know?

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
And I think that's I think what we've got to
now is a very human explanation for it, which is
useful for other people who are examining their own motivations
for going into all kinds of situations.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
I think it's a life lesson.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
Nothing we say on this podcasts going to affect the
perception of the Dan Saunder as they know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
I don't care.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
It's about what the twenty four hours a day you
live in and what you do from here.

Speaker 1 (01:15:28):
I'm going to be watching very closely.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
I don't think you'll be looking outside the bulls Head
tavern that wangerd with a hot ATM card.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
No, I mean that's right.

Speaker 4 (01:15:36):
I mean it's you live and learn and you just
go through these experiences and ye, there's not a point
where I go I wish I didn't do that, because
it's made me who I am today, and who knows,
maybe I'm going to be able to help you know,
people who you know, they might be eighteen, they might
be sort of you know, getting right into trouble. Like
if I was eighteen and I had someone with the

(01:16:00):
amount of experience I have in gambling, and I don't
even have to tell them not to do it. I
can just say what will happen if they continue to
do it? You know, it's not even about don't do
it anymore. I feel like that's a bad message as well,
because it's like, what do we want to do as humans?
Everything that people tell us not to do?

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
That was Daniel Saunders, the original ATM boy Watch Out
for our film coming soon. I think he's found peace
and purpose from sharing his story, and others may benefit
from his experience and the insight that he's gained. I
find that gratifying because I was never comfortable with my
role in getting him locked up. Now, if you have

(01:16:39):
a problem with gambling or risk, please reach out for
some help. We put some links that may be useful
in the description, but if you have something you'd like
to get off your chest, like Dan did, drop me
an email at Adam Shand writer at gmail dot com.
This has been real crime with Adam Shand. Thanks for listening.

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Addicted to Risk: Ten Years After the ATM Glitch | Dan Saunders

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Addicted to Risk: Ten Years After the ATM Glitch | Dan Saunders