November 30, 2025 • 45 mins
Former Victoria Police detective Narelle Fraser spent 27 years confronting some of the darkest corners of humanity—homicide, sexual assault, missing persons. But no case has stayed with her more than the disappearance of Lorraine Joy (Yardley) Carter, a vulnerable young woman who vanished in 2002 and was never found.
In this episode, Narelle opens up to Adam about the emotional toll of policing, the weight of unsolved cases and the devastating impact of PTSI (post-traumatic stress injury) on her career and life. She revisits the investigation into Lorraine’s disappearance, the troubling behaviour of Lorraine’s husband Murray Carter and the heartbreaking reality that Lorraine’s parents died without ever knowing what happened to their daughter.
Follow Narelle's Podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/narelle-fraser-interviews/id1637791533
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apote production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
Adam Shand. It's been my honor over the years to
tell the stories of police officers and their service to
the community. Often these officers have suffered trauma as a
result of their service. Detective Sergeant Peter Ramanaz says police
absorbed the pain of others for so long, eventually the
well just runs dry. It's only in recent years that
(00:38):
the community and enlightened police forces have begun to understand
the long term impacts of post traumatic stress disorder. A
former Victorian officer diagnosed with PTSD says he was haunted
by flashbacks, nightmares, and overwhelming anxiety. Rather than accepting the
trauma comes with the job, police forces are now coming
(00:59):
to terms of PTSD and trying to find ways of
preventing it and getting members back on the job. Nerelle
Fraser was a member of Victoria Police for twenty seven years.
Fifteen of those years she was a detective dealing with homicide,
sexual assault, and missing person's cases. Her matters cover some
of the highest profile crimes in Victoria of her era.
(01:21):
In twenty twelve, Noel began to see a change in herself.
Perhaps all the death, misery, and trauma she'd witnessed had
begun to accumulate. Former officers described carrying cases for decades
long after the uniform comes off. She was diagnosed with
PTSD and she never returned to the job she loved.
(01:43):
She had to find healing, and with that came a
complete reinvention of herself. In the years since, Norelle has
become a successful podcast host, a keynote speaker, and she
also trains investigators. She uses her experience as an inspiration
to others getting into the job or dealing with the
dark side of her career in policing. Like most former detectives,
(02:05):
Noel carries with her memories of jobs that she couldn't complete,
loved ones she couldn't bring home to their families, crooks
she couldn't lock up. And today we'll talk about one
of those. Lorraine Joy Carter. He vanished in July two
thousand and two, presumed murdered Gay Norrell.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
When I say Lorraine Joy Carter, what images come to mind?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I suppose it's not so much an Emmy Jadam, but
more so a sense of failure. I worked on Lorraine's
case for years with a team obviously from Missing Persons Unit,
but I was never able to find her, just her parents.
The anguish, the sadness, the trauma that her parents went
(02:57):
through of not knowing where Lorraine was, if she was
actually alive or deceased. It's more a sense of failure
when anybody says the name Lorraine. It's an awful thing
to live with, Adam, it really is, because now that
both her parents are deceased. You know, even if we
(03:18):
do find Lorraine, every time there's a dead body or
a deceased body or bones fan, I always think, oh
my god, I hope it's Loraine. But her parents went
to their grave without ever ever knowing. So that's a
huge failure in my book.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
And I've spoken to numerous missing persons detectives over the years,
and they're very careful how they promise things. They don't
say I will bring your love one home. That's their
ego speaking. It's got to be much more of a
I will leave no stone unturned in the search for
your loved one.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's right, because I mean with Lorraine, no, we never
did find her, and you cannot promise things that you
don't know the answer to, and I think that would
be a huge mistake for anyone to promise we will
find them. You just don't know. But like you just said, then,
I've always said I will do everything I can, I
(04:16):
will leave no stone unturned. But I would often say
to them, you know, to any parent or relative or
friend of a missing person, I'll do everything I can,
but I cannot promise you I'll find them. That must
be hard to hear for somebody that's got a loved
one or friend missing. But in the end, I got
(04:38):
taught when I was a kid, don't make promises you
can't keep.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
As journos, we constantly overpromise and under deliver. So it's
a different kind of kind of thing. But in your
world though, and I guess we did this to some
extent as well, long term cases that we cover, but
yours is a different emphasis. You form a close relationship
with the family, but at the same time you're not
acting for the fan. You're acting for the crown. That's
(05:04):
your first responsibility. Yet you are brought into the family
circle of this person that you will never meet, possibly
certainly not living, and you see their childhood photographs, you
see their school reports, you talk to their friends, You
form this picture, and you develop a close relationship with
the family in terms of your own mental health and
(05:26):
well being. How do you regulate that kind of relationship.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I think that was probably my undoing, was that I
felt I could compartmentalize to a point, but I couldn't
actually cut myself off from those emotions. And I think
really good detectives do. But I also know a lot
of detectives that feel like me that they do develop
(05:54):
a closeness because you learn so much about this person,
it's almost like you're there with them. And as you say,
like seeing the photos around and like with Lorraine, I've
spoken to her girlfriends, I've spoken to her friends, obviously
her mum and dad, but her family, and looking back,
I wouldn't say too close. But I couldn't stop thinking
(06:16):
I'm responsible for Lorraine's parents' happiness. Like that's a huge
load for anybody to carry, and I used to do
that a lot. I felt very responsible for their happiness.
In fact, by the end, when I was diagnosed with PTSD,
I was feeling responsible for everybody's happiness and welfare and
(06:40):
safety in Victoria. I mean, you just can't do that.
So I wasn't very good at not getting close.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
And that's a strength for some detectives. I mean, I've
even heard of stories where they're in the interview room,
they push away the interview table, they sit next to
the accused or the family, and they really give of themselves.
But it's a dangerous moment because I think that well
of empathy is not bottomless. It will have an impact
(07:12):
on you. And I think, look at the cases you covered.
Your bucket was pretty full. You can't go to that
well endlessly. And I think you reached a point where
that was true.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Oh I absolutely did. But I didn't see it coming, Adam.
And I think that's what a lot of people that
get PTSD. We are trying to change that term to PtSi,
as in the fact that it's an injury, not a disorder,
because it's got just such a negative connotation. But all
the time I go back to PTSD, I'm trying to
change my way of thinking. But I just kept going
(07:46):
into that well and I didn't see it coming. And
that happens a lot with people that get PtSi. They
don't see it coming. It's like a bolt out of
the blue. You think, why can't I do this today?
With me? It happened when I was viewing some child
abuse material that I had done hundreds of times before,
(08:09):
but this particular day, I don't know. I just think
my bucket, my well got full, and I just couldn't
deal with anymore. Apparently that's quite common that we think
it happens just suddenly, just comes out of the blue.
But when you look back, the signs were there for
a very very long time. I put my head in
(08:31):
the sand. I didn't understand anything in my day. When
I was diagnosed in twenty twelve, it was very new.
I didn't know what PTSD was. I can remember when
the doctor told me. I said, me, PTSD, what is that?
And of course when he said the words mental illness,
(08:51):
just hung and I thought I couldn't have a mental illness.
I'm no reel Fraser. I'm fine. I'm the strong one.
I take on well, I don't take on the tough jobs,
but I'm drawn to them like a b to a honey,
because that's what I like. But I just couldn't see
the wood for the trees.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
And you also forged a career in Victoria Police at
a time when women were really assuming their rightful role
in the ranks of Victoria Police.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It wasn't always easy.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You had to be very resilient, so I guess that
feeling of having to be superhuman and invincible was an
important part of your uniform as you went to work.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Absolutely, because in the day when I was diagnosed in
twenty twelve, I was so concerned about being seen as
unable to cope weak, you know, she can't deal with it.
And as you say, we as women have come a
long way. Like really, when I first started, women were
(09:54):
just an addendum. Blokes went and caught the crooks and
we just sort of really tagged along. If kids needed
babysitting or a woman needed to be helped or support to,
oh you know, the girls will do that. So we
have come a long way, Jeuse. It was tough at
the start at them. You know, there were times when
I wanted to walk away.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Oh yeah, I've heard male members refer to policewomen of
that era as the skirts and even less flattering terms.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yes, it's dismissive.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
You have to be tougher than tough, and you have
to pull your weight, which you did, so credit to you.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And a weight it was. It was a weight to carry,
but I just sort of felt I loved policing, and
I think I learned a very valuable lesson early on
that I can't be responsible for how other people think,
how other people act, because I saw some terrible things
from policemen towards the community. But I thought if I
(10:55):
walked away and I wasn't there, who would be there
to help some of those people, to talk to them.
So I look at it now as a strength to
that I stayed, I suppose, but I didn't at the time.
It was just sort of feel like you have to
accept the positives and the negatives and concentrate more on
(11:18):
the positives and the negatives, because I mean, in your
field in journalism, there's positives and negatives. I'm sure you've
a couple of times felt like, you know what, I'm
out of here, But then you think about the good
times and the good things you do and the good
stories you cover. You've just got to sold your honor.
I suppose if you said and done.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
The only times I said I'm out of here was
when I got fired. A couple of times, let's not
go to those stories. By two thousand and two, when
Lorraine Joy Carter goes missing, you're fully fledged. You've been
in the job for more than fifteen years as a
detective in a uniform as well. You were perfectly placed
to cover this investigation.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
You were the informant. Tell me about Lorraine.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What were your early impressions of her as you started
to form your case theory?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Probably one of sadness that Lorraine had been born with complications.
She was born with some enormous challenges. She went to
what we used to call a special school in Bendigo.
She really struggled academically. All the professionals that her mum
(12:30):
and dad took her to basically always said Lorraine would
amount to nothing. She lived with her parents most of
her life. They were this is going to sound wrong.
I don't know how to say it, but to look
at Lorraine, you knew that there were problems, there were issues,
But you know what, to her parents, Lorraine was just
(12:51):
a perfect child. I mean they had a very very
close relationship and because of her challenges and her struggles,
they looked after her probably a bit more. They were
really lovely close family. And Lorraine had this dog called Chloe,
and Chloe was the world to Lorraine. Like her child.
(13:13):
You know, she had a couple of relationships. They were disasters,
but she had a really beautiful personality. She made a
lot of friends at school and friends that were friends
of hers until she went missing. And I've spoken to
many of those friends, and she was a very very popular,
(13:36):
really lovely natured woman.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And as you say, they were a very close family.
And in nineteen ninety eight, her parents, June and Allen,
they bought a caravan down at Phillip Island at Caravan
Park there and Lorraine would go there with them, but
also stay there on her own. In two thousand, she
meets the man who had become the red hot suspect
in her disappearance.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And murder, The only suspecting.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I was given the benefit of the doubt from Murray
Lionel Carter.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Who is he?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You know, my parents taught me a lot of things,
but one of the things they taught me was if
you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything.
But my parents aren't here now, so I can actually
say I despised everything that Murray stood for. And this
is through years of investigating this man and I was
(14:33):
able to actually put this aside and do my job.
But he was a controlling, manipulative man who was very violent,
and he was a very typical abuser because what he
did was he met Lorraine. Obviously she was very vulnerable.
(14:57):
He could see that he wasn't a dial you know,
I'd love to say he was, but he wasn't. And
he began to isolate Lorraine from her parents, from her friends.
It is just such a typical coercive, controlling relationship.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You're right, because pretty soon they're living together in Murray's caravan.
Not long afterwards, they moved to Cape Patterson, even further
south than Phillip Island. So you see this process of
isolation beginning. Sort of, I guess what we call these
control and coercion that sort of ended the policing lexicon
in recent years, but.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
This is a good example of it.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I think, Oh absolutely, to the point where Lorraine was
almost one hundred percent relying on Murray for everything, for money,
because he began controlling her finances. Where they lived. They
ended up moving to a place up on the mid
to Mitter, the most beautiful part of the world. But
(15:58):
you know, I can't go anywhere near there there without
thinking about Paul Lorraine. But he ended up moving to
this dump, no electricity, no water. It was a family
house that had been abandoned, his family, and he took
her up there. You know, they were five hundred meters
(16:19):
from the road, they were kilometers from neighbors, no phone
except Lorraine's mobile. But you know, just to go into town,
Lorraine didn't drive, so even to go to the shops,
she either had to walk, which was ten k or
hitchhike or go with Murray. You know, like it is
(16:42):
just a perfect example of somebody that manipulates and controls
a person, in this case.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
A woman, And in Lorraine's case, the disappearance is out
of character. So close to her parents, has been in
constant contact through all the dramas. She was getting beaten up,
there were all these things going on, but she still
kept communicating. Obviously, in these situations you must eliminate the
spouse or partner of those close to the victim. And
(17:11):
when you looked into Murray's background, there were some telltale signs.
He'd done jail for karth F's and robbery with violence.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
He'd beaten a shop on over the.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Head, with a with a hammer.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, so I guess in that situation he becomes your
prime suspect, and you're really thinking this is more than
likely a murder, not just a disappearance.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Absolutely, there were so many telltale signs. But just going back, yes,
he was in my mind, and I think most other detectives,
he was the number one suspect. We never found anyone
else that we believed had the motive or you know,
she could have been abducted if she was walking into
(17:58):
town or something. Sure, but the history of Murray, in
my mind, he was the one and only suspect. And
I say that with a lot of evidence to corroborate
what I'm saying. The beatings that he gave her, the injuries,
(18:22):
she'd wring her parents. She'd run to the neighbors or
run into town or hitchhike into town, and she'd wring
her mum and dad, you know, come and get me,
throwing a chair, He's throwing me across the room, terrible things.
It was just so cruel. But he had her in
the palm of her hand, and they actually got married.
(18:44):
And I think, how coercive and controlling is this, But
he actually chose her wedding dress and her shoes. That's
what I'm talking about about. So controlling. But what Lorraine
wanted to do. She'd always wanted to get married, like
you know, most people want to be loved and want
to be in a relationship there in And Loraine always
(19:08):
said to her mum and dad, she'd always go back
to him because she said, it's my fault. I made
him angry. I've got to make this work, you know,
that sort of thing, like God lover.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
What's frustrating.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Often in these situations there's victim blaming with that cliche
a question, well, why didn't she leave him? You've been
up close to these things, and you know why people
don't leave in these situations. And as she said, she
took on a feeling of blame.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Absolutely she did, because he would continually tell her that
she was useless. He just put her down all the time,
to the point where I suppose you start to believe it.
I mean, I've never been in that position, but I
know so many people that have, and they do, they
start to think it's their fault. And that's what Loraine
(19:58):
would say, I made him angry. Mum and dad. The
poor darling, you know, you know it brings back such
a sadness in my career.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
I'm sure it does.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And I mean so much circumstantial evidence, going to talk
like your senior sergeant here, So much circumstantial evidence, but
the direct evidence was lacking. I mean things like the
fact that it wasn't Murray who called the police to
advise she was missing, even though he was with her
every day.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It was her father.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And then the following day Murray goes to Sendling and
gets a single pension saying his wife left him the
day after she's been reported missing. Heavy circumstantial evidence, but
you've got nobody. When you're faced with this sort of
history and you've got someone who's now clearly indicating she's
not coming back, what does he know? How does it
(20:48):
feel as an investigator?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Bloody, frustrating, and it makes you want to dig just
deeper and deeper because you just want to find that link.
You want to find that nexus between let's say Hurry
and Lorraine. I believe he murdered her and he disposed
of her body. He knew the area where she went
(21:11):
missing like the back of his hand. He had grown
up in that area, so he would know areas like
you know Deisi Freeman. He knows the area like the
back of his hand. He knows areas that police will
never search or whatever. But to this day, no sign
of her. And like you say, the circumstantial evidence was overwhelming,
(21:34):
but we didn't have a body, and we had nobody
that saw her after I think it was the sixteenth
of July of that year. Her parents are the ones.
Her dad is the one that reported her missing, not Murray.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
And by September, when you're full into the investigation, you're
discovering that Murray's pawning Lorraine's items, anything connected with her.
He's selling for cash. There is absolutely no remorse, there's
no compassion, there's no grief for his wife that's missing.
He's pawning her possessions. I mean, it's the kind of
(22:12):
thing that if you put before a jury, I'd probably
convict on. But to get to the court of appeal,
they're going to say, no, that's not beyond reasonable doubt.
So I can see the dilemma. And I think these
days though, courts are more accepting of situations where there
isn't a body back then not the case.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
No, But even if you don't have a body. G
you've got to have a good case. You know, it's
not just I reckon he's done it and this is
what he's done. Like the evidence that we found in
relation to Murray, as we've said, it was overwhelming, but
you know, we couldn't find a body. In fact, it
(22:51):
had to go to a coroner's court for an inquest
for the coroner to actually say, I believe that Murray
Carter has murdered Lorraine and disposed of her body. Oh,
just the effort that we went to to try and
prove everything that Murray would say. You know, when we
(23:15):
were talking about you never make a promise you can't keep.
I did make one promise in this case, and it's
nothing I'm proud of, but it's how I became so
angry about how somebody could treat a vulnerable woman like Lorraine.
And I remember one time when we did a search
(23:37):
warrant at Murray's house. I remember him sitting there and
I actually poked his chest and through my gritted teeth,
I'm going to get you you. I think I said,
you f in prick, but I said I'm going to
get you you in prick. If it's the last thing
I do, and I remember poking finger att or like
(23:59):
that is just you just should never ever do that.
And my emotions were just, you know, at boiling point
with him because I was just so disgusted with what
I learned about him. And you know what, I never
did get him.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
That was the twelfth of December two thousand and two,
when that search was conducted at the house. You turned
the place upside down, You took up floorboards, you took
the contents of the vacuum and everything you could possibly do,
but it yielded nothing that she could really take forward.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Pretty much? The only thing that we did find was
a little calico bag that he said Lorraine had taken
with her when she left, because that's what Murray said
when everyone would ask. The local police attended the knight
that alan her father the night that he reported it,
tutos to the local police. The med to meter police
(24:57):
went straight around there, Murray where is she? And he
maintained until the day of his death that they'd had
an arm argument, that she just walked out of the
house and he never saw her again. He said she
took her mobile phone and he set a calico bag
and he explained the bag, and that's the one that
June had made her Well, in the warrant, we found
(25:21):
that Calico bag. Now, okay, it's a quarter of percent,
you know, all those little one percentages. It still doesn't
prove that he's killed her. But you know, there was
a lot of little chinks in his story, but nothing
that we could ever prove.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Indeed, this is a hard story to read and to
tell because I can see what impact it must have
had on you, because come July two thousand and three,
Murray doesn't can come and confess. He doesn't tell anybody
what he's done. He commits suicide, and he effectively blames
you in a note that he left behind.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, but that doesn't surprise me. I think he felt
about me as I felt about him. He didn't actually
name me, he said police, but I hadn't been particularly
professional with him. So but you know, from my point
of view, and I apologize to suicide is a terrible
thing for anybody to deal with. And Murray's got a family.
(26:19):
You know, there's people that they leave behind. But I
just felt it was a coward's way out with Murray.
He just I just don't understand if you're going to
do that, why wouldn't he say? And this is something
that's always stuck in my mind. He knew he was
going to end his life, why wouldn't he say, I
(26:40):
did do it? But he never did, And there's just
a little bit of a niggle in the back of
my mind. If he did do it, why didn't he
say that in the note? But then again, being the
type of person he was, he'd probably never admitted anyway.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Well, I think that's true.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I've heard this time and time again from people like
Derek Ernest Percy, who killed many more people than he
was charged with too. He was the one that he
was convicted over, but he killed half a dozen more
at least, and he had the opportunity to say that
he did it on his deathbed. Plenty of chances to
do that. I've seen cases where it's obvious that someone
is the killer but doesn't reveal the location of the body.
(27:22):
I think, excuse my friends, but it's a final fuck
you to society.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Oh absolutely, because you only get.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Away with murder when you're dead. There's always someone like
you chasing, which is a good thing on behalf of
the community. So he took that to his grave. And
I think that's the great tragic, not just for the family,
but for you who've invested so much in this that
you can't take that final piece of information that Lorraine
is buried such and such a place and bring her
(27:48):
home to Mum and dad.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, and I think, as I said at the beginning,
and the sad thing is that Lorraine's never been found.
And her parents, Alan and June, they joined Vicvictims of
Crime Assistance. They went to all that missing persons rallies.
They did everything humanly possible to keep Lorraine's memory alive
(28:19):
because I believe that they will. They hoped that Lorraine
would be found before they passed away, and they didn't.
They went to their graves not knowing. And I just
think it's sad after years, you know, they don't want
anyone to forget Lorraine. They was elderly by I don't know,
(28:40):
let's say ten years later. They were elderly, but they
didn't want to leave their house because what if Lorraine
came back. Isn't that sad? That that's the effect that
these sort of crimes have on the people that are
left behind.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
For sure, even finding remains on the other side, of
the coin is such a resolution. I've just in a
case with the Victoria Police podcast that I make about
an ex serviceman who was trying to get back to
his family from Perth.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
He perished in the desert.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
His body wasn't found for thirty five years, and his
children always believed that he'd walked off on them, let
them down. So whenctives were able to bring the remains
back and say I'm told me sorry about your father
has passed away, at least they could say, well, he
was trying to get home. Whereas without the body, it's
such a oh, it's so unresolved. I think it would
be the hardest thing to adjust to. And there is
(29:32):
that feeling that perhaps they walk down the drive hope
against hope. And I've got half a dozen cases that
I cover and I always hope that there will be
a resolution. I've actually a little post note on my
wall here that says completion. It reminds me to look
back at those cases and keep making those phone calls,
do what you can. And I'm sure it's times ten
(29:52):
with a police officer who's not just telling a story
but trying to find evidence to convict somebody or to
bring somebody home.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
And also you think, what have I missed? You know,
have I missed something obvious? All those questions, and just
as a little aside, I always remember every Monday, without fail,
Alan would ring me. The fineer'd go at eight thirty
am and it'd be Ellen and he was always so
upbeat and you know, hello, love, how's your weekend? Just
(30:26):
you know, wondering if there's been any movement, you know,
and to actually say to somebody continually, we haven't been
able to find anything or know it, and then people
don't under why would they understand, but we are working
on I don't know. At the time, I was probably
working on god six or seven active missing person files,
(30:51):
the Rain being one of them. You know, you'd go
and do a bit on one file and do a
bit on another, but you try telling a parent of
a missing child on doing other jobs with other like
you just wouldn't do it. But oh I used them.
My heart used to sink eight thirty Monday morning. It
was Alan.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, But that is the reality that you've got several
files that you've got to work on, and you've got
to give everyone the same kind of attention.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
But you did it.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Not just out of it because you had to or
a sense of duty. You did it because you love
the job and you love these people. I got to
tell you the fact that you went and attended the
memorial service twelve months after the rain's disappearance.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I guess you could be cynical and say, oh, maybe there's.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Some evidence to be had there, but I don't think
that's why you were there.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
No, no, I went there. I haven't done that too
many times. In fact, the times I have gone to
a memorial service, as you say, it's like scanning the crowd.
Who's here. With Lorraine, it was nothing like that. Her
mum and dad asked me. I think June and Allen
sort of saw me as a quasi daughter in a
(31:56):
way because I was around the same age as Lorraine.
I just felt it's the least I could do. They
asked me to go, and I remember I sat right
up the back on my own and oh my goodness,
Alan said the most beautiful things about me in the
memorial and I was a blubbering mess up the back
(32:19):
of the church, and I was so embarrassed because it's
just me, you know, I just couldn't pretend to be
anything else. But I think they really admired me. They
respected me as much as I admired and respected them.
But as I keep saying, it was just I felt
(32:40):
such a failure. It's an awful feeling to live with.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But you remained in the job another ten years, I
think before you had to pull the pin. What were
those years like? Could you see that the experiences of
your service were taking their toll?
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I don't think I could, Adam. I think I would
make excuses. I think I will say to myself, well,
of course I'm going to be tired and emotional in
those days. We do eighteen twenty hour days. Then you'd
have to be back at work the next day, so
you might be running on a couple of hours sleep.
(33:21):
You know, all you'd think about is what have I missed?
I mean, it became overwhelming, but I didn't see it
like that. And also I think I was pushing down
these feelings because I just loved it so much. It
sounds bizarre, doesn't it when we talk about these heart
renting cases. But I loved what I did. I loved
(33:43):
what I represented, I loved dealing with the people. And
you know, I was always very honest never lied. But
I think people respected the fact that I didn't lie
and that if there was something difficult to say, I
would say it. But I put my head in the sand.
Looking back, the signs were there. I just couldn't accept it.
(34:07):
I think.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
You were finally diagnosed in twenty twelve, and then that
was the end of your career. I mean, how was
that adjusting to the fact that you're now out of
the job that you loved, that had formed such a
strong part of your personality. How was the journey from
there and your healing horrendous?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Initially because I loved policing so much, and I realized
after going to a psychologist, my doctor is the one
that said I had PtSi, and of course I thought
he was the one that needed help, not me. He
was wrong. But it was after going to the psychologist
(34:51):
and talking to her it's when I realized, you know what,
I'm very sick. I went to austin the PtSi course,
which was a game changer. But initially I didn't want
to leave the house because I didn't want to see police,
like just to see a police car or hear a siren.
(35:13):
I just wanted to be there and I missed it terribly,
but also thank goodness, I had the foresight to listen
to the professionals because the psychologist I explained a situation
that had happened just before I actually went off sick.
And the reason I went to the doctor because I
had it like an amnesia event in court where I
(35:33):
just walked out of court. I'm informed in a buddy
rape trial and I'm in La La Land, across the
road having a coffee. I remember thinking to myself, pardon me,
but what the fuck am I doing over here? I'm
supposed to be running a committal. You know, I missed
everything about it. But then I started to realize how
damaged I was, and the sich said to me that
(35:55):
amnesia event in court. The next step was psych hospital
and that's when I thought, you know what, nothing is
worth that. It frightened me because I'd been to a
psych hospital a number of times as a police person,
and it is so confronting, so sad, horrifying, traumatic, every
(36:16):
word you can think of, and I thought, I'm not
going there, and so I trusted the professionals. And it
took me a long time to be able to I
didn't want to tell anyone that I was off work
because I was so embarrassed. I was so humiliated that
I had a mental illness. So I didn't see anyone,
(36:37):
and I had a lot of triggers. I didn't realize.
I didn't know what a flashback or a trigger was.
I had no idea. But after leaving, or when I left,
I couldn't even go and see little kids in a
playground or little kids running around. Everywhere you go there's kids.
That was a trigger for me because of what I'd
seen with the child abuse material. It's really strange, well
(36:59):
not strange, I won't go into it, but animals are
a trigger for me. What do you do? Everyone's got
a dog, most people have kids or grandkids or something.
So I found it easier to be on my own.
But then eventually, with the help of a psychologist and
the fact that I was away from policing, as difficult
(37:22):
as it was, I think that time away helped me.
Now I can talk about any job you want, but
initially I couldn't even think of them. But that's how healed,
I suppose I am. I don't think I'll ever be
one hundred. Well I won't because I still have terrible nightmares.
(37:42):
That's something that you know I have to live with.
But now I feel like telling the world about what
I didn't want to tell anybody because I kept it
all in myself. And that's I think what an issue
it was is that you see some such terrible things
that you don't want to bring, Like I didn't want
to bring my husband, my sisters, my friends into that world.
(38:05):
So you keep a lot of it, you absorb it.
But it was to my detriment, and now I want
to tell the whole body world about what I had too.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And you're doing an amazing job, and I that's off
to you. What do you think was a turning point
that there was one towards resolving your injury and getting
to a stage where I mean, it's obviously going to
be a scar t issue because just the job will
carry those scars, let alone the debilitating nature of ptsis,
I'm now going to call it.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, I think the main thing that I had to
do to get better was the hardest thing. I had
to accept that I had a mental illness. And until
you accept that there is something wrong, something that needs attention,
(38:57):
you're never going to fix it. So I honestly think
I took probably eighteen months away from the job to
be able to accept pardon me, I fucked. You know.
I had to be able to be able to accept that,
(39:18):
and that's not easy. Once I accepted that I had
been very, very sick, nearly admitted to a psych hospital,
That's what I think. The main turning point was probably
that came from attending the Austin hospital, the PtSi clinic.
(39:41):
That's where I was with another eight I think it
was police people. They did some pretty intensive work there,
and it was just how did I ever do this?
Like some of the I remember with work cover, I
went to a psychologist that they sent me to, and
I remember telling the psychologist one job that I've been
(40:03):
to and she actually said to me, Neelle, I'm sorry,
I can't deal with you anymore. That was also a
bit of a wow, this must be bad when I
told somebody what I was experiencing. For a psychologist or
psychiatrist to say I can't deal with this, Wow, that
(40:25):
was a real moment as well, I think, But it's
definitely accepting that I was unwell, but also listening to
the professionals. I did a lot of things that I thought,
this is madness. If anybody saw me doing this, they'd
think I was definitely heading for a psych hospital. But
(40:46):
I listened to the professionals. I did everything they said
because I desperately wanted to get back. But the longer
I was away, the more I realized how damaged I was.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I've never seen the stigma around meddlems because my dad
was a psychiatrist. I literally grew up around this and
him discussing this stuff. He'd say, people will go to
the hospital for a broken arm, but they won't go
to the hospital for a broken mind.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
He couldn't understand it, and that was.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
One of his frustrations, and I think he used to
absorb a lot of this sort of trauma.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
I'm not sure how he resolved it.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
But listen, You've had an amazing career, and I really
want to thank you for sharing this so openly. And
we have a lot of young people who are considering
careers in police and it's a difficult job now because
people don't want to join up. They're struggling to get
people in. What advice would you give to young people,
I guess, particularly women who are considering a career in
(41:38):
policing and how to manage these issues which will surely
be there because most of you you're being paid to
put yourselves in harms way, I.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Think to accept that you are going to be exposed
to some very traumatic incidents, to a lot of sadness
and a lot of grief. But I think that everybody,
every police person, should see a professional psychiatrist or psychologist.
(42:07):
More than a psychiatrist, but to see somebody professional, maybe
once a month, once every six weeks, just to talk
to somebody about how you're feeling, and to learn the
signs that I ignored, the signs that I ignored. I
got to the point where I began shaking a lot,
(42:30):
to the point where I couldn't read my own writing.
If I'd pulled over motorists for something, or I went
knocking on a pedophile's door, which happened a lot, I
got very anxious. I would shake really bad. I was
sleeping of a night time. I think I call it
an irritable leg but what happened was my legs would
(42:52):
shake so much that it would wake up my husband.
And again, because I didn't want to tell anyone, I
didn't know what was happening. Myself, you know, keep it
a secret. So there was a shaking. The anger. Oh
my god, Adam, the anger. I am not an angry person,
but I got to the point where I felt like
(43:13):
my head was going to burst. But if I would
have been educated and maybe seen somebody very early on regularly,
might have been able to recognize these signs and do
something about it. But I had no idea what was
going on. I just thought, this is what happens when
you're a police person, you know, you see this sort
(43:34):
of stuff. Of course I'm going to get tired. Of
course I'm going to get emotional.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Well, it's all very good advice, Norell, and I want
to thank you for sharing your stories today, and I
think this is very useful for people indeed, So thanks
for your time.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Thank you, Adam. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Noel Fraser, what an amazing career. We do ask our
police people to put themselves in harm's way, and it's
only recently that we're starting to appreciate the toll of that.
And when you look at that case, Lorraine Joy Carter
and Norel's inability to close that one, the red hot
suspect to be turning back and saying was the police
(44:13):
that made him take his own life is very hard
to take for a police officer. I'm sure that contributed
to Norell's problems, and it's great to see she's come
back and she's sharing these stories for the benefit of everyone.
But Lorraine's case remains open. In my opinion, that someone's
still out there, may have some information that could help Norell,
even though she's out of the job now to close
(44:33):
that one. If you have any information, why don't you
call crime stoppers? Why don't hundred triple three, triple zero.
All information is treated as confidential. If you don't trust
the cops, you can always send me an email Adam
Shanned writer at gmail dot com. But don't sit there
and not say anything, say something. Come forward as always
someone who knows something that can close these cases. Even
(44:55):
though her parents are gone, she deserves it. This has
been Adam shanf for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
Apote production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
Adam Shand. It's been my honor over the years to
tell the stories of police officers and their service to
the community. Often these officers have suffered trauma as a
result of their service. Detective Sergeant Peter Ramanaz says police
absorbed the pain of others for so long, eventually the
well just runs dry. It's only in recent years that
(00:38):
the community and enlightened police forces have begun to understand
the long term impacts of post traumatic stress disorder. A
former Victorian officer diagnosed with PTSD says he was haunted
by flashbacks, nightmares, and overwhelming anxiety. Rather than accepting the
trauma comes with the job, police forces are now coming
(00:59):
to terms of PTSD and trying to find ways of
preventing it and getting members back on the job. Nerelle
Fraser was a member of Victoria Police for twenty seven years.
Fifteen of those years she was a detective dealing with homicide,
sexual assault, and missing person's cases. Her matters cover some
of the highest profile crimes in Victoria of her era.
(01:21):
In twenty twelve, Noel began to see a change in herself.
Perhaps all the death, misery, and trauma she'd witnessed had
begun to accumulate. Former officers described carrying cases for decades
long after the uniform comes off. She was diagnosed with
PTSD and she never returned to the job she loved.
(01:43):
She had to find healing, and with that came a
complete reinvention of herself. In the years since, Norelle has
become a successful podcast host, a keynote speaker, and she
also trains investigators. She uses her experience as an inspiration
to others getting into the job or dealing with the
dark side of her career in policing. Like most former detectives,
(02:05):
Noel carries with her memories of jobs that she couldn't complete,
loved ones she couldn't bring home to their families, crooks
she couldn't lock up. And today we'll talk about one
of those. Lorraine Joy Carter. He vanished in July two
thousand and two, presumed murdered Gay Norrell.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
When I say Lorraine Joy Carter, what images come to mind?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I suppose it's not so much an Emmy Jadam, but
more so a sense of failure. I worked on Lorraine's
case for years with a team obviously from Missing Persons Unit,
but I was never able to find her, just her parents.
The anguish, the sadness, the trauma that her parents went
(02:57):
through of not knowing where Lorraine was, if she was
actually alive or deceased. It's more a sense of failure
when anybody says the name Lorraine. It's an awful thing
to live with, Adam, it really is, because now that
both her parents are deceased. You know, even if we
(03:18):
do find Lorraine, every time there's a dead body or
a deceased body or bones fan, I always think, oh
my god, I hope it's Loraine. But her parents went
to their grave without ever ever knowing. So that's a
huge failure in my book.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
And I've spoken to numerous missing persons detectives over the years,
and they're very careful how they promise things. They don't
say I will bring your love one home. That's their
ego speaking. It's got to be much more of a
I will leave no stone unturned in the search for
your loved one.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's right, because I mean with Lorraine, no, we never
did find her, and you cannot promise things that you
don't know the answer to, and I think that would
be a huge mistake for anyone to promise we will
find them. You just don't know. But like you just said, then,
I've always said I will do everything I can, I
(04:16):
will leave no stone unturned. But I would often say
to them, you know, to any parent or relative or
friend of a missing person, I'll do everything I can,
but I cannot promise you I'll find them. That must
be hard to hear for somebody that's got a loved
one or friend missing. But in the end, I got
(04:38):
taught when I was a kid, don't make promises you
can't keep.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
As journos, we constantly overpromise and under deliver. So it's
a different kind of kind of thing. But in your
world though, and I guess we did this to some
extent as well, long term cases that we cover, but
yours is a different emphasis. You form a close relationship
with the family, but at the same time you're not
acting for the fan. You're acting for the crown. That's
(05:04):
your first responsibility. Yet you are brought into the family
circle of this person that you will never meet, possibly
certainly not living, and you see their childhood photographs, you
see their school reports, you talk to their friends, You
form this picture, and you develop a close relationship with
the family in terms of your own mental health and
(05:26):
well being. How do you regulate that kind of relationship.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I think that was probably my undoing, was that I
felt I could compartmentalize to a point, but I couldn't
actually cut myself off from those emotions. And I think
really good detectives do. But I also know a lot
of detectives that feel like me that they do develop
(05:54):
a closeness because you learn so much about this person,
it's almost like you're there with them. And as you say,
like seeing the photos around and like with Lorraine, I've
spoken to her girlfriends, I've spoken to her friends, obviously
her mum and dad, but her family, and looking back,
I wouldn't say too close. But I couldn't stop thinking
(06:16):
I'm responsible for Lorraine's parents' happiness. Like that's a huge
load for anybody to carry, and I used to do
that a lot. I felt very responsible for their happiness.
In fact, by the end, when I was diagnosed with PTSD,
I was feeling responsible for everybody's happiness and welfare and
(06:40):
safety in Victoria. I mean, you just can't do that.
So I wasn't very good at not getting close.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
And that's a strength for some detectives. I mean, I've
even heard of stories where they're in the interview room,
they push away the interview table, they sit next to
the accused or the family, and they really give of themselves.
But it's a dangerous moment because I think that well
of empathy is not bottomless. It will have an impact
(07:12):
on you. And I think, look at the cases you covered.
Your bucket was pretty full. You can't go to that
well endlessly. And I think you reached a point where
that was true.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Oh I absolutely did. But I didn't see it coming, Adam.
And I think that's what a lot of people that
get PTSD. We are trying to change that term to PtSi,
as in the fact that it's an injury, not a disorder,
because it's got just such a negative connotation. But all
the time I go back to PTSD, I'm trying to
change my way of thinking. But I just kept going
(07:46):
into that well and I didn't see it coming. And
that happens a lot with people that get PtSi. They
don't see it coming. It's like a bolt out of
the blue. You think, why can't I do this today?
With me? It happened when I was viewing some child
abuse material that I had done hundreds of times before,
(08:09):
but this particular day, I don't know. I just think
my bucket, my well got full, and I just couldn't
deal with anymore. Apparently that's quite common that we think
it happens just suddenly, just comes out of the blue.
But when you look back, the signs were there for
a very very long time. I put my head in
(08:31):
the sand. I didn't understand anything in my day. When
I was diagnosed in twenty twelve, it was very new.
I didn't know what PTSD was. I can remember when
the doctor told me. I said, me, PTSD, what is that?
And of course when he said the words mental illness,
(08:51):
just hung and I thought I couldn't have a mental illness.
I'm no reel Fraser. I'm fine. I'm the strong one.
I take on well, I don't take on the tough jobs,
but I'm drawn to them like a b to a honey,
because that's what I like. But I just couldn't see
the wood for the trees.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
And you also forged a career in Victoria Police at
a time when women were really assuming their rightful role
in the ranks of Victoria Police.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It wasn't always easy.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You had to be very resilient, so I guess that
feeling of having to be superhuman and invincible was an
important part of your uniform as you went to work.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Absolutely, because in the day when I was diagnosed in
twenty twelve, I was so concerned about being seen as
unable to cope weak, you know, she can't deal with it.
And as you say, we as women have come a
long way. Like really, when I first started, women were
(09:54):
just an addendum. Blokes went and caught the crooks and
we just sort of really tagged along. If kids needed
babysitting or a woman needed to be helped or support to,
oh you know, the girls will do that. So we
have come a long way, Jeuse. It was tough at
the start at them. You know, there were times when
I wanted to walk away.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Oh yeah, I've heard male members refer to policewomen of
that era as the skirts and even less flattering terms.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yes, it's dismissive.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
You have to be tougher than tough, and you have
to pull your weight, which you did, so credit to you.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And a weight it was. It was a weight to carry,
but I just sort of felt I loved policing, and
I think I learned a very valuable lesson early on
that I can't be responsible for how other people think,
how other people act, because I saw some terrible things
from policemen towards the community. But I thought if I
(10:55):
walked away and I wasn't there, who would be there
to help some of those people, to talk to them.
So I look at it now as a strength to
that I stayed, I suppose, but I didn't at the time.
It was just sort of feel like you have to
accept the positives and the negatives and concentrate more on
(11:18):
the positives and the negatives, because I mean, in your
field in journalism, there's positives and negatives. I'm sure you've
a couple of times felt like, you know what, I'm
out of here, But then you think about the good
times and the good things you do and the good
stories you cover. You've just got to sold your honor.
I suppose if you said and done.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
The only times I said I'm out of here was
when I got fired. A couple of times, let's not
go to those stories. By two thousand and two, when
Lorraine Joy Carter goes missing, you're fully fledged. You've been
in the job for more than fifteen years as a
detective in a uniform as well. You were perfectly placed
to cover this investigation.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
You were the informant. Tell me about Lorraine.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What were your early impressions of her as you started
to form your case theory?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Probably one of sadness that Lorraine had been born with complications.
She was born with some enormous challenges. She went to
what we used to call a special school in Bendigo.
She really struggled academically. All the professionals that her mum
(12:30):
and dad took her to basically always said Lorraine would
amount to nothing. She lived with her parents most of
her life. They were this is going to sound wrong.
I don't know how to say it, but to look
at Lorraine, you knew that there were problems, there were issues,
But you know what, to her parents, Lorraine was just
(12:51):
a perfect child. I mean they had a very very
close relationship and because of her challenges and her struggles,
they looked after her probably a bit more. They were
really lovely close family. And Lorraine had this dog called Chloe,
and Chloe was the world to Lorraine. Like her child.
(13:13):
You know, she had a couple of relationships. They were disasters,
but she had a really beautiful personality. She made a
lot of friends at school and friends that were friends
of hers until she went missing. And I've spoken to
many of those friends, and she was a very very popular,
(13:36):
really lovely natured woman.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And as you say, they were a very close family.
And in nineteen ninety eight, her parents, June and Allen,
they bought a caravan down at Phillip Island at Caravan
Park there and Lorraine would go there with them, but
also stay there on her own. In two thousand, she
meets the man who had become the red hot suspect
in her disappearance.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And murder, The only suspecting.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I was given the benefit of the doubt from Murray
Lionel Carter.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Who is he?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You know, my parents taught me a lot of things,
but one of the things they taught me was if
you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything.
But my parents aren't here now, so I can actually
say I despised everything that Murray stood for. And this
is through years of investigating this man and I was
(14:33):
able to actually put this aside and do my job.
But he was a controlling, manipulative man who was very violent,
and he was a very typical abuser because what he
did was he met Lorraine. Obviously she was very vulnerable.
(14:57):
He could see that he wasn't a dial you know,
I'd love to say he was, but he wasn't. And
he began to isolate Lorraine from her parents, from her friends.
It is just such a typical coercive, controlling relationship.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You're right, because pretty soon they're living together in Murray's caravan.
Not long afterwards, they moved to Cape Patterson, even further
south than Phillip Island. So you see this process of
isolation beginning. Sort of, I guess what we call these
control and coercion that sort of ended the policing lexicon
in recent years, but.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
This is a good example of it.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I think, Oh absolutely, to the point where Lorraine was
almost one hundred percent relying on Murray for everything, for money,
because he began controlling her finances. Where they lived. They
ended up moving to a place up on the mid
to Mitter, the most beautiful part of the world. But
(15:58):
you know, I can't go anywhere near there there without
thinking about Paul Lorraine. But he ended up moving to
this dump, no electricity, no water. It was a family
house that had been abandoned, his family, and he took
her up there. You know, they were five hundred meters
(16:19):
from the road, they were kilometers from neighbors, no phone
except Lorraine's mobile. But you know, just to go into town,
Lorraine didn't drive, so even to go to the shops,
she either had to walk, which was ten k or
hitchhike or go with Murray. You know, like it is
(16:42):
just a perfect example of somebody that manipulates and controls
a person, in this case.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
A woman, And in Lorraine's case, the disappearance is out
of character. So close to her parents, has been in
constant contact through all the dramas. She was getting beaten up,
there were all these things going on, but she still
kept communicating. Obviously, in these situations you must eliminate the
spouse or partner of those close to the victim. And
(17:11):
when you looked into Murray's background, there were some telltale signs.
He'd done jail for karth F's and robbery with violence.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
He'd beaten a shop on over the.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Head, with a with a hammer.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, so I guess in that situation he becomes your
prime suspect, and you're really thinking this is more than
likely a murder, not just a disappearance.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Absolutely, there were so many telltale signs. But just going back, yes,
he was in my mind, and I think most other detectives,
he was the number one suspect. We never found anyone
else that we believed had the motive or you know,
she could have been abducted if she was walking into
(17:58):
town or something. Sure, but the history of Murray, in
my mind, he was the one and only suspect. And
I say that with a lot of evidence to corroborate
what I'm saying. The beatings that he gave her, the injuries,
(18:22):
she'd wring her parents. She'd run to the neighbors or
run into town or hitchhike into town, and she'd wring
her mum and dad, you know, come and get me,
throwing a chair, He's throwing me across the room, terrible things.
It was just so cruel. But he had her in
the palm of her hand, and they actually got married.
(18:44):
And I think, how coercive and controlling is this, But
he actually chose her wedding dress and her shoes. That's
what I'm talking about about. So controlling. But what Lorraine
wanted to do. She'd always wanted to get married, like
you know, most people want to be loved and want
to be in a relationship there in And Loraine always
(19:08):
said to her mum and dad, she'd always go back
to him because she said, it's my fault. I made
him angry. I've got to make this work, you know,
that sort of thing, like God lover.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
What's frustrating.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Often in these situations there's victim blaming with that cliche
a question, well, why didn't she leave him? You've been
up close to these things, and you know why people
don't leave in these situations. And as she said, she
took on a feeling of blame.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Absolutely she did, because he would continually tell her that
she was useless. He just put her down all the time,
to the point where I suppose you start to believe it.
I mean, I've never been in that position, but I
know so many people that have, and they do, they
start to think it's their fault. And that's what Loraine
(19:58):
would say, I made him angry. Mum and dad. The
poor darling, you know, you know it brings back such
a sadness in my career.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
I'm sure it does.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And I mean so much circumstantial evidence, going to talk
like your senior sergeant here, So much circumstantial evidence, but
the direct evidence was lacking. I mean things like the
fact that it wasn't Murray who called the police to
advise she was missing, even though he was with her
every day.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It was her father.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And then the following day Murray goes to Sendling and
gets a single pension saying his wife left him the
day after she's been reported missing. Heavy circumstantial evidence, but
you've got nobody. When you're faced with this sort of
history and you've got someone who's now clearly indicating she's
not coming back, what does he know? How does it
(20:48):
feel as an investigator?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Bloody, frustrating, and it makes you want to dig just
deeper and deeper because you just want to find that link.
You want to find that nexus between let's say Hurry
and Lorraine. I believe he murdered her and he disposed
of her body. He knew the area where she went
(21:11):
missing like the back of his hand. He had grown
up in that area, so he would know areas like
you know Deisi Freeman. He knows the area like the
back of his hand. He knows areas that police will
never search or whatever. But to this day, no sign
of her. And like you say, the circumstantial evidence was overwhelming,
(21:34):
but we didn't have a body, and we had nobody
that saw her after I think it was the sixteenth
of July of that year. Her parents are the ones.
Her dad is the one that reported her missing, not Murray.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
And by September, when you're full into the investigation, you're
discovering that Murray's pawning Lorraine's items, anything connected with her.
He's selling for cash. There is absolutely no remorse, there's
no compassion, there's no grief for his wife that's missing.
He's pawning her possessions. I mean, it's the kind of
(22:12):
thing that if you put before a jury, I'd probably
convict on. But to get to the court of appeal,
they're going to say, no, that's not beyond reasonable doubt.
So I can see the dilemma. And I think these
days though, courts are more accepting of situations where there
isn't a body back then not the case.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
No, But even if you don't have a body. G
you've got to have a good case. You know, it's
not just I reckon he's done it and this is
what he's done. Like the evidence that we found in
relation to Murray, as we've said, it was overwhelming, but
you know, we couldn't find a body. In fact, it
(22:51):
had to go to a coroner's court for an inquest
for the coroner to actually say, I believe that Murray
Carter has murdered Lorraine and disposed of her body. Oh,
just the effort that we went to to try and
prove everything that Murray would say. You know, when we
(23:15):
were talking about you never make a promise you can't keep.
I did make one promise in this case, and it's
nothing I'm proud of, but it's how I became so
angry about how somebody could treat a vulnerable woman like Lorraine.
And I remember one time when we did a search
(23:37):
warrant at Murray's house. I remember him sitting there and
I actually poked his chest and through my gritted teeth,
I'm going to get you you. I think I said,
you f in prick, but I said I'm going to
get you you in prick. If it's the last thing
I do, and I remember poking finger att or like
(23:59):
that is just you just should never ever do that.
And my emotions were just, you know, at boiling point
with him because I was just so disgusted with what
I learned about him. And you know what, I never
did get him.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
That was the twelfth of December two thousand and two,
when that search was conducted at the house. You turned
the place upside down, You took up floorboards, you took
the contents of the vacuum and everything you could possibly do,
but it yielded nothing that she could really take forward.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Pretty much? The only thing that we did find was
a little calico bag that he said Lorraine had taken
with her when she left, because that's what Murray said
when everyone would ask. The local police attended the knight
that alan her father the night that he reported it,
tutos to the local police. The med to meter police
(24:57):
went straight around there, Murray where is she? And he
maintained until the day of his death that they'd had
an arm argument, that she just walked out of the
house and he never saw her again. He said she
took her mobile phone and he set a calico bag
and he explained the bag, and that's the one that
June had made her Well, in the warrant, we found
(25:21):
that Calico bag. Now, okay, it's a quarter of percent,
you know, all those little one percentages. It still doesn't
prove that he's killed her. But you know, there was
a lot of little chinks in his story, but nothing
that we could ever prove.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Indeed, this is a hard story to read and to
tell because I can see what impact it must have
had on you, because come July two thousand and three,
Murray doesn't can come and confess. He doesn't tell anybody
what he's done. He commits suicide, and he effectively blames
you in a note that he left behind.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, but that doesn't surprise me. I think he felt
about me as I felt about him. He didn't actually
name me, he said police, but I hadn't been particularly
professional with him. So but you know, from my point
of view, and I apologize to suicide is a terrible
thing for anybody to deal with. And Murray's got a family.
(26:19):
You know, there's people that they leave behind. But I
just felt it was a coward's way out with Murray.
He just I just don't understand if you're going to
do that, why wouldn't he say? And this is something
that's always stuck in my mind. He knew he was
going to end his life, why wouldn't he say, I
(26:40):
did do it? But he never did, And there's just
a little bit of a niggle in the back of
my mind. If he did do it, why didn't he
say that in the note? But then again, being the
type of person he was, he'd probably never admitted anyway.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Well, I think that's true.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I've heard this time and time again from people like
Derek Ernest Percy, who killed many more people than he
was charged with too. He was the one that he
was convicted over, but he killed half a dozen more
at least, and he had the opportunity to say that
he did it on his deathbed. Plenty of chances to
do that. I've seen cases where it's obvious that someone
is the killer but doesn't reveal the location of the body.
(27:22):
I think, excuse my friends, but it's a final fuck
you to society.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Oh absolutely, because you only get.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Away with murder when you're dead. There's always someone like
you chasing, which is a good thing on behalf of
the community. So he took that to his grave. And
I think that's the great tragic, not just for the family,
but for you who've invested so much in this that
you can't take that final piece of information that Lorraine
is buried such and such a place and bring her
(27:48):
home to Mum and dad.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, and I think, as I said at the beginning,
and the sad thing is that Lorraine's never been found.
And her parents, Alan and June, they joined Vicvictims of
Crime Assistance. They went to all that missing persons rallies.
They did everything humanly possible to keep Lorraine's memory alive
(28:19):
because I believe that they will. They hoped that Lorraine
would be found before they passed away, and they didn't.
They went to their graves not knowing. And I just
think it's sad after years, you know, they don't want
anyone to forget Lorraine. They was elderly by I don't know,
(28:40):
let's say ten years later. They were elderly, but they
didn't want to leave their house because what if Lorraine
came back. Isn't that sad? That that's the effect that
these sort of crimes have on the people that are
left behind.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
For sure, even finding remains on the other side, of
the coin is such a resolution. I've just in a
case with the Victoria Police podcast that I make about
an ex serviceman who was trying to get back to
his family from Perth.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
He perished in the desert.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
His body wasn't found for thirty five years, and his
children always believed that he'd walked off on them, let
them down. So whenctives were able to bring the remains
back and say I'm told me sorry about your father
has passed away, at least they could say, well, he
was trying to get home. Whereas without the body, it's
such a oh, it's so unresolved. I think it would
be the hardest thing to adjust to. And there is
(29:32):
that feeling that perhaps they walk down the drive hope
against hope. And I've got half a dozen cases that
I cover and I always hope that there will be
a resolution. I've actually a little post note on my
wall here that says completion. It reminds me to look
back at those cases and keep making those phone calls,
do what you can. And I'm sure it's times ten
(29:52):
with a police officer who's not just telling a story
but trying to find evidence to convict somebody or to
bring somebody home.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
And also you think, what have I missed? You know,
have I missed something obvious? All those questions, and just
as a little aside, I always remember every Monday, without fail,
Alan would ring me. The fineer'd go at eight thirty
am and it'd be Ellen and he was always so
upbeat and you know, hello, love, how's your weekend? Just
(30:26):
you know, wondering if there's been any movement, you know,
and to actually say to somebody continually, we haven't been
able to find anything or know it, and then people
don't under why would they understand, but we are working
on I don't know. At the time, I was probably
working on god six or seven active missing person files,
(30:51):
the Rain being one of them. You know, you'd go
and do a bit on one file and do a
bit on another, but you try telling a parent of
a missing child on doing other jobs with other like
you just wouldn't do it. But oh I used them.
My heart used to sink eight thirty Monday morning. It
was Alan.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, But that is the reality that you've got several
files that you've got to work on, and you've got
to give everyone the same kind of attention.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
But you did it.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Not just out of it because you had to or
a sense of duty. You did it because you love
the job and you love these people. I got to
tell you the fact that you went and attended the
memorial service twelve months after the rain's disappearance.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I guess you could be cynical and say, oh, maybe there's.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Some evidence to be had there, but I don't think
that's why you were there.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
No, no, I went there. I haven't done that too
many times. In fact, the times I have gone to
a memorial service, as you say, it's like scanning the crowd.
Who's here. With Lorraine, it was nothing like that. Her
mum and dad asked me. I think June and Allen
sort of saw me as a quasi daughter in a
(31:56):
way because I was around the same age as Lorraine.
I just felt it's the least I could do. They
asked me to go, and I remember I sat right
up the back on my own and oh my goodness,
Alan said the most beautiful things about me in the
memorial and I was a blubbering mess up the back
(32:19):
of the church, and I was so embarrassed because it's
just me, you know, I just couldn't pretend to be
anything else. But I think they really admired me. They
respected me as much as I admired and respected them.
But as I keep saying, it was just I felt
(32:40):
such a failure. It's an awful feeling to live with.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But you remained in the job another ten years, I
think before you had to pull the pin. What were
those years like? Could you see that the experiences of
your service were taking their toll?
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I don't think I could, Adam. I think I would
make excuses. I think I will say to myself, well,
of course I'm going to be tired and emotional in
those days. We do eighteen twenty hour days. Then you'd
have to be back at work the next day, so
you might be running on a couple of hours sleep.
(33:21):
You know, all you'd think about is what have I missed?
I mean, it became overwhelming, but I didn't see it
like that. And also I think I was pushing down
these feelings because I just loved it so much. It
sounds bizarre, doesn't it when we talk about these heart
renting cases. But I loved what I did. I loved
(33:43):
what I represented, I loved dealing with the people. And
you know, I was always very honest never lied. But
I think people respected the fact that I didn't lie
and that if there was something difficult to say, I
would say it. But I put my head in the sand.
Looking back, the signs were there. I just couldn't accept it.
(34:07):
I think.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
You were finally diagnosed in twenty twelve, and then that
was the end of your career. I mean, how was
that adjusting to the fact that you're now out of
the job that you loved, that had formed such a
strong part of your personality. How was the journey from
there and your healing horrendous?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Initially because I loved policing so much, and I realized
after going to a psychologist, my doctor is the one
that said I had PtSi, and of course I thought
he was the one that needed help, not me. He
was wrong. But it was after going to the psychologist
(34:51):
and talking to her it's when I realized, you know what,
I'm very sick. I went to austin the PtSi course,
which was a game changer. But initially I didn't want
to leave the house because I didn't want to see police,
like just to see a police car or hear a siren.
(35:13):
I just wanted to be there and I missed it terribly,
but also thank goodness, I had the foresight to listen
to the professionals because the psychologist I explained a situation
that had happened just before I actually went off sick.
And the reason I went to the doctor because I
had it like an amnesia event in court where I
(35:33):
just walked out of court. I'm informed in a buddy
rape trial and I'm in La La Land, across the
road having a coffee. I remember thinking to myself, pardon me,
but what the fuck am I doing over here? I'm
supposed to be running a committal. You know, I missed
everything about it. But then I started to realize how
damaged I was, and the sich said to me that
(35:55):
amnesia event in court. The next step was psych hospital
and that's when I thought, you know what, nothing is
worth that. It frightened me because I'd been to a
psych hospital a number of times as a police person,
and it is so confronting, so sad, horrifying, traumatic, every
(36:16):
word you can think of, and I thought, I'm not
going there, and so I trusted the professionals. And it
took me a long time to be able to I
didn't want to tell anyone that I was off work
because I was so embarrassed. I was so humiliated that
I had a mental illness. So I didn't see anyone,
(36:37):
and I had a lot of triggers. I didn't realize.
I didn't know what a flashback or a trigger was.
I had no idea. But after leaving, or when I left,
I couldn't even go and see little kids in a
playground or little kids running around. Everywhere you go there's kids.
That was a trigger for me because of what I'd
seen with the child abuse material. It's really strange, well
(36:59):
not strange, I won't go into it, but animals are
a trigger for me. What do you do? Everyone's got
a dog, most people have kids or grandkids or something.
So I found it easier to be on my own.
But then eventually, with the help of a psychologist and
the fact that I was away from policing, as difficult
(37:22):
as it was, I think that time away helped me.
Now I can talk about any job you want, but
initially I couldn't even think of them. But that's how healed,
I suppose I am. I don't think I'll ever be
one hundred. Well I won't because I still have terrible nightmares.
(37:42):
That's something that you know I have to live with.
But now I feel like telling the world about what
I didn't want to tell anybody because I kept it
all in myself. And that's I think what an issue
it was is that you see some such terrible things
that you don't want to bring, Like I didn't want
to bring my husband, my sisters, my friends into that world.
(38:05):
So you keep a lot of it, you absorb it.
But it was to my detriment, and now I want
to tell the whole body world about what I had too.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And you're doing an amazing job, and I that's off
to you. What do you think was a turning point
that there was one towards resolving your injury and getting
to a stage where I mean, it's obviously going to
be a scar t issue because just the job will
carry those scars, let alone the debilitating nature of ptsis,
I'm now going to call it.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, I think the main thing that I had to
do to get better was the hardest thing. I had
to accept that I had a mental illness. And until
you accept that there is something wrong, something that needs attention,
(38:57):
you're never going to fix it. So I honestly think
I took probably eighteen months away from the job to
be able to accept pardon me, I fucked. You know.
I had to be able to be able to accept that,
(39:18):
and that's not easy. Once I accepted that I had
been very, very sick, nearly admitted to a psych hospital,
That's what I think. The main turning point was probably
that came from attending the Austin hospital, the PtSi clinic.
(39:41):
That's where I was with another eight I think it
was police people. They did some pretty intensive work there,
and it was just how did I ever do this?
Like some of the I remember with work cover, I
went to a psychologist that they sent me to, and
I remember telling the psychologist one job that I've been
(40:03):
to and she actually said to me, Neelle, I'm sorry,
I can't deal with you anymore. That was also a
bit of a wow, this must be bad when I
told somebody what I was experiencing. For a psychologist or
psychiatrist to say I can't deal with this, Wow, that
(40:25):
was a real moment as well, I think, But it's
definitely accepting that I was unwell, but also listening to
the professionals. I did a lot of things that I thought,
this is madness. If anybody saw me doing this, they'd
think I was definitely heading for a psych hospital. But
(40:46):
I listened to the professionals. I did everything they said
because I desperately wanted to get back. But the longer
I was away, the more I realized how damaged I was.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I've never seen the stigma around meddlems because my dad
was a psychiatrist. I literally grew up around this and
him discussing this stuff. He'd say, people will go to
the hospital for a broken arm, but they won't go
to the hospital for a broken mind.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
He couldn't understand it, and that was.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
One of his frustrations, and I think he used to
absorb a lot of this sort of trauma.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
I'm not sure how he resolved it.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
But listen, You've had an amazing career, and I really
want to thank you for sharing this so openly. And
we have a lot of young people who are considering
careers in police and it's a difficult job now because
people don't want to join up. They're struggling to get
people in. What advice would you give to young people,
I guess, particularly women who are considering a career in
(41:38):
policing and how to manage these issues which will surely
be there because most of you you're being paid to
put yourselves in harms way, I.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Think to accept that you are going to be exposed
to some very traumatic incidents, to a lot of sadness
and a lot of grief. But I think that everybody,
every police person, should see a professional psychiatrist or psychologist.
(42:07):
More than a psychiatrist, but to see somebody professional, maybe
once a month, once every six weeks, just to talk
to somebody about how you're feeling, and to learn the
signs that I ignored, the signs that I ignored. I
got to the point where I began shaking a lot,
(42:30):
to the point where I couldn't read my own writing.
If I'd pulled over motorists for something, or I went
knocking on a pedophile's door, which happened a lot, I
got very anxious. I would shake really bad. I was
sleeping of a night time. I think I call it
an irritable leg but what happened was my legs would
(42:52):
shake so much that it would wake up my husband.
And again, because I didn't want to tell anyone, I
didn't know what was happening. Myself, you know, keep it
a secret. So there was a shaking. The anger. Oh
my god, Adam, the anger. I am not an angry person,
but I got to the point where I felt like
(43:13):
my head was going to burst. But if I would
have been educated and maybe seen somebody very early on regularly,
might have been able to recognize these signs and do
something about it. But I had no idea what was
going on. I just thought, this is what happens when
you're a police person, you know, you see this sort
(43:34):
of stuff. Of course I'm going to get tired. Of
course I'm going to get emotional.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Well, it's all very good advice, Norell, and I want
to thank you for sharing your stories today, and I
think this is very useful for people indeed, So thanks
for your time.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Thank you, Adam. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Noel Fraser, what an amazing career. We do ask our
police people to put themselves in harm's way, and it's
only recently that we're starting to appreciate the toll of that.
And when you look at that case, Lorraine Joy Carter
and Norel's inability to close that one, the red hot
suspect to be turning back and saying was the police
(44:13):
that made him take his own life is very hard
to take for a police officer. I'm sure that contributed
to Norell's problems, and it's great to see she's come
back and she's sharing these stories for the benefit of everyone.
But Lorraine's case remains open. In my opinion, that someone's
still out there, may have some information that could help Norell,
even though she's out of the job now to close
(44:33):
that one. If you have any information, why don't you
call crime stoppers? Why don't hundred triple three, triple zero.
All information is treated as confidential. If you don't trust
the cops, you can always send me an email Adam
Shanned writer at gmail dot com. But don't sit there
and not say anything, say something. Come forward as always
someone who knows something that can close these cases. Even
(44:55):
though her parents are gone, she deserves it. This has
been Adam shanf for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
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