August 17, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, we sit down with former Special Operations Group officer George Hateley—the man who introduced the taser to Australia. George unpacks decades of frontline experience, from lethal armed robberies to confronting some of Australia’s most dangerous criminals. He addresses the controversy around tasers, the Claire Nowland case and the public misconceptions about non-lethal force.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanned. I'm your host,
Adam Shan Let's talk about tases. In May twenty twenty three,
ninety five year old Claire Allen died after being tasered
by New South Wales police officer Christian White.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
The great grandmother died overnight one week after allegedly being
tasered at her nursing home in Cooma, south of Canbero.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
White was charged and found guilty of manslaughter, be the
avoided jail, being sentenced to a two year community corrections order.
There was a fair bit of public outrage about that
and it sort of brought tases back into the public
debate again. Tayses have been around for thirty years. You
could say that they've saved maybe three hundred thousand plus
lives from death or serious bodily injury in situations where
(00:59):
the lethal force would have been justified. Yet still, when
you ask artificial and intelligence whether tases are safe, I
will tell you that there's still no consensus. Tases are
generally considered less lethal and safe when used correctly, but
they still carry risks, especially for vulnerable people or in
high stress situations. Some studies suggest that the taser can
(01:23):
directly pace the heart into a ventricular fibrillation. Now North America,
there have apparently been over four hundred and forty deaths
where tases have been used, but the people have died afterwards.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Police purpose bray and taser ninety two year old amputee
who died three weeks after assault at care home.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
George Hateley was a Special Operations Group police officer in
Victoria and was involved in lethal confrontations with firearms during
his service. After leaving the force, George introduced the taser
to Australia. And he's my guest today. Get a George.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Hey, glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
The controversy over tases continues. Your experience is very different.
Are they safe?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
They're safe as anything. It's safer than most things that
police that carry on their belt or on their best
They're extremely safe. And I can back that up with
medical and scientific and my experience over twenty five years
with taser.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And yet AI still says there's no consensus. But what
is AI know?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
AI doesn't know the true facts and details that I know.
And I can strongly say that they are safe, and
I'd argue with AI any day. About that, and AI
is dependent on what information you put into it, and
I've got information that would improve its intelligence.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Because in the case of clear Nyland, to me, that
was not the taser. That was just poor police practice.
Yet taser gets mentioned every time. Can we go through
that instance and just work out what went wrong? And
that's such. It was five am, for instance, he was
at the end of his shift. They were asked to
come back again to deal with Claire, who was walking
around the corridors of the nursing home brandishing a steak knife.
(03:05):
I don't think it should ever have been used.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
No, it's like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut,
way over the top. I think, you know, everyone would
agree with me to say that was unnecessary, unacceptable in
a tragic situation.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Shouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I could have thrown a bucket of water on her
or grail that I would have had this better effect
than what she was exposed to.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It was a horrible thing.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Because let's explain what a taser actually is.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, it's an electric emission device. And when I say that,
it's operated by a battery, and basically I'll talk in
layman's terms. It takes about ten amps to kill someone.
You know, if you stick your finger in a two
forty volt PowerPoint, you could get electrocuted, and the ampswer kill.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It's not the voltage.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Fifty thousand bolts is just an ability to transfer the
electricity from one point to the other. You can go
Science Works and touch a device down there. It's got
a million bolts and they'll stand your hair up right.
It's quite funny. We often go through doors and get
out of cars and get zapped by voltage.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's not going to hurt us.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
The difference between Taser is interesting, and I go back
to the guy that actually invented the technology. His name
escapes me at the moment, but he was at NASA.
He was reading his paper and he's reading an article
where a farmer had been connected to a wire fence
(04:38):
for several hours and he didn't die. This sinus couldn't
work out why, and he investigated it, and what had
happened was a power pole had fallen over and the
electricity had connected with the wire fence and the charge
was traveling down the wire, but it was intermittent charge.
(04:58):
Now that's different to what electricity does to us. If
we get a charge of electricity, it's constant, where Taser
has pulsating charging. For example, when you're exposed to Taser,
you get exposed nineteen times a second of electrical pulses,
not a constant charge. A constant charge will kill you.
(05:19):
But the pulses give a breathing space Albert nine seconds.
So that's basically how it works. If you're talking about amperage,
like I said, it takes about ten amps to kill someone.
Taser has got point zero zero to one amps, so
two hundredth of an amp. That's the amount of amperage
(05:42):
you know Taser. So when you look at it that way,
it can't kill. It medically can't kill. And I've looked
at a lot of those AI studies or examples. You
look at them and they're old, they're twenty eight years old.
We're talking early two thousands where TAYS was extremely controversial
(06:03):
and Amnesty International jumped on board. Everyone jumped on board
saying these are devices of torture, they are killing people
and so forth. And you mentioned four hundred and forty
Taser deaths, Well, if you look at it, they were
probably Taser related deaths. And I know from examples that
a lot of these taser related deaths are related because
(06:26):
taser was used. I can name a lot of deaths
that happened similar sort of circumstances where police and I
won't say bad guys but mentally disturbed people were involved
and they died. Taser wasn't there, so it wasn't that
much controversy, but they died from things like positional a
fixture where three, four or five heavy coppers would land
(06:47):
on top of them.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
They couldn't breathe, they die.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
That's the George Floyd example from America, where.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It's similar to pin down, or the Brazilian student back
how many years ago, six, seven, eight years ago might.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Be longer, Yeah, it might be looking up.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But that one always gets played when people talk about
tasers that they refer to the Brazilian student shoplifting in Sydney.
He gets chased, police attend and he's tasted, but then
they all jump on him as well.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Tragic, but the homicide squad rang me up the next morning.
He said, George blake'spain taser.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
He's died.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I've had a few phone calls like that over the years,
and I straight away said, tell me the circumstances, they
told me, and I go, Tas, it didn't kill him,
And I go, he, do you know that. You know
I'm in Sydney, I'm in Melbourne at the time. And
I said, I can tell you now from what you've
told me, tases didn't kill him unless he swallowed it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
He might have choked on it and died. That's the
only way it can kill.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
What happened in actual fact with that, and the coroner
came and gave that decision. And the thing I said
to the homicide squad that morning, tell me about the
actual wires, because the wires that are used to tether
the dart to the cartridge, So you've got wires inside
the cartridge. When the electricity hits the cartridge, it deploys
(08:02):
two darts, one at horizontal eight degrees, and it spreads
the darts, which spreads the electricity. And in the case
of deploying it properly, the wires should be crimped, because
they're crimped when they go in the cardres they folded
and they have this crease in the wire. I said,
(08:24):
what are the wires like and he said, oh, one's
crimped and one straight. I said, well, one didn't connect
to him. He said, how do you know that? And
I said, well, if you fire a taser into mid air,
the wires will deploy to the maximum distance and they'll stretch.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
They won't have a crimp.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And he said, ah, it was simple, so it wasn't effective.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
No, it didn't.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
And even if it did, the currenter said it was
positional to fix youre that killed him. They all piled
on top of him. Keep in mind, those policemen at
that time of the morning had done a shift through
the night. One of their members, another officer, had been
shot during an armed robbery attempt m robbery. And the
(09:05):
little bloke in the seven eleven that called the police
it was a language barrier and he said robbery, robbery,
and they've got this over the air Chinese whisper that
there was another armed rubbery in progress. Police, having experienced
that in that shift late at night, early in the morning,
went to it hyped up. Saw this bloke run out
(09:25):
of the seven eleven store, bare chested off. He goes,
please chase him. They fired the taser. They eventually get
to him, pole on top of him.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
He dies.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Coroner, not the media, not you, mah or anyone else.
The coroner said he died from this, not taser. And
I can give you dozens of examples, and some of
them in Australia and mostly around the world.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, that was now twelve years ago. That was Betho Ladizio,
the Brazilian student, and that really has stuck with people
in their minds when they think about tasers. But as
you say, people don't read the fine detail. And you
you were in Victoria Police during a very bloody era
when a lot of suspects were shot. You were involved
in at least two operations where suspects did die. What's
(10:14):
the alternative where if you're having to shoot suspects who
could otherwise be incapacitated, where are we.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I was involved in one two, I was involved in
quite a few. Not the shooter in every case, but
I saw a lot of deaths as a result of
lethal force. And as a result of that, not me,
but the hierarchy decided to bring in a new system
where it was called Operation Beacon. And I actually left
(10:42):
the police force and they brought that in.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Because of that.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
No, no, no, no, no, it was more political. I
enjoyed my life in the police force. I joined on
the twelfth of July seventy six, resigned on the twelfth
of July ninety four, and I designed it that way
and went into business that I'm in now, So.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
You look for alternatives.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
The alternative then was not knee jerk, but it was like,
we're going to do something to stop this ongoing fatality rate.
And interesting period because the inspector in charge of the
police training at the time was Inspected Jim Ben, a
good mate of mine, had been in the SAG, like
a lot of other guys that went from promotion after
(11:27):
they left the SAG, went to training, and what happened was,
in my early days, you were told not take a
gun out of your host unless you get shot at.
What Jim and all the other guys taught police officers
was defend yourself. Now, I can tell you a dozen
or twenty five different reasons why you should get your
(11:48):
gun out if you were facing a real and impending threat,
because basically, a criminal can fire a weapon before you
can send a message from your brain down your finger
to defend yourself, So you have to have that weapon
out if you've faced with a real threat to your life.
So they started training in that respect. They started training
(12:10):
a much better tactically better use of firearm, but more
importantly the tactical side of things. And what happened, as
Jim ben said to the media at the time, they said,
why Victoria police shooting more people? In fact, the whole
of Australia double at was Victoria's rate of shooting. Jim
(12:30):
Vent very casually sat back and said, because we're better shots,
and that was fact.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That was true. You couldn't ask him to explain about.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And the people being shot also had firearms themselves. A
bit of a war going on at that time between
the police and the crooks, which obviously culminated in the
Wall Street murders of two police.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Officers, Damien Here and Stephen Tynan, which is really tragic, horrible.
So you look for alternatives. Beacon was one, but you
look at what the world's like now. It's more equality.
So you got little people. When I say little people
physically not what they used to have. I used to wear,
(13:12):
you know, I wore thick socks when I went for
the high test and just got in and I'm five
nine and.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
A half and I think you've added an inch they
heaven you, Yeah, I think I might.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I think you did.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I shrunk jumping out a helicopters too much. So you've
got a different type of person on the street now.
They're not physically able to deal hand to hand combat.
So we need to give them the proper tools. Because
if you are faced with again a real and impending
thread and you're a person that is looking at six
(13:42):
foot six and he says I'm going to take that
gun off you and shove out your backside, and you
know that sort of thing, you've got to give them
an alternative otherwise they're going to use that lethal force,
and they justified to. If a bloke comes to me
and says I'm going to kill you and I've only
got a gun, I'm going to have to use a
gun against you, it's gun day.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It's gun day. Yeah. So taser is a great alternative battens.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, but you know you've got to get in close
and close caught a battle situation. It's not always ideal,
and unless you're an expert you train every day all day,
it just doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
OC spray.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
You know, I've been drowned in it and still run
through courses where being drowned in it, shoot targets do
relaads and shoot accurately and still suffering in pain and discomfort.
It doesn't stop you. And especially if you're mentally rage, alcohol,
drug effected, it may not affect you at all. Oc
(14:41):
spray or hit with a baton and I swung a
bat and a couple of times until that didn't work,
bounced off their head. But tas is a different thing.
Taser will incapacitate. It works like a bullet in a
lot of ways, but it hasn't that lethality. A bullet
placed between the eyes and followed down through the spinal cord.
(15:02):
I think it's don't quote me, but it's C two
C three of the spinal cord will topple a person
over instantly.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Roughly just near the breastbone sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
I think it's just below the base of the head
around down the back of the neck sort of thing
that area. Because I've seen it, I've done a lot
of research, I've spoken a lot of other place in
respect to shootings. And there's a classic movie people can
go watch The FBI Killings. It's a fantastic Hollywood movie,
(15:33):
quite old. But I saw the recreation of that particular
shooting in Miami, Florida, where several FBI agents confronted two
sailans heavily armed, and the coroner at the end of
the thing where two FBI agents were killed. The two
bad guys were killed, but two FBI agents were killed
(15:53):
and five were injured shot and the coroner said that
one of the first rounds that the FBI agent shot
was a fatal shot to the bad guy, but he
walked around for two minutes, killed a couple of agents,
and shot a few more. So, bullet doesn't always stop
a real and impending threat. People can still die. And
(16:14):
that bullet went through his heart, by the way, and
he still walked around for to admitute tayser will incapacit
properly deployed, properly trained people, and I emphasized properly train
officers will deploy Taser. It will work every time. Taser
doesn't fail. Taser unit don't fail. It's the operators that
(16:35):
failed to deploy properly.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Because you've been in that life and death situation at
the airport there with normally Lee when he was robbing
the ANSET terminal there. This is back in ninety two.
They were very determined he was a very good arm robber,
and he was ready to kill officers. That day, you
were faced with that moment where they were trying to
get away, you were there.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
What happened in a nutshell, I was faced with a
real impending threat and Lee pointed a weapon towards me,
and I felt instantly didn't even hesitate the fire because
of the fact that I was defending myself. I had
had sufficient training. We'd actually rehearsed for weeks and weeks
and weeks on that pending arrest that we didn't know
(17:19):
what they were going to do, whether they're going to
hold a bankup or a payroll or something at the airport.
Then it eventuated it was at the airport, and it
was a situation that happened in nanoseconds, But it was
the training that brought it out that I responded very quickly,
and unfortunately for him, I got in first before.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
He got me.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I'd say, that's fortunate for you, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I put that back down to my training people.
You know, we had to manatorily go to see the psychologist,
and I was pretty settled about it, pretty comfortable with
what I did because I'd trained for it. We'd talked
about these sort of situations, debriefed over shootings that we've
(18:03):
been involved with before, so mentally I was prepared for it.
And the problem with on the street coppers when they
get into those sort of situations, they're faced with traumatic
stress because they haven't had the training that we'd had.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And taking life is a big deal.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
But you know what, a lot of times police think
about it could have been them instead, and that's what
traumatizes officers more so than taking a life.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
And that's my opinion.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I could be debated on that, but I've spoken a
lot of police that have been in shootings and one
of the first things they worried about, oh, George could
have been made. You know, I've been in situation where
other offers, we've been involved in shootings and we've had
I've said buddy up and checked for bullet holes and
they've gone what And I go check if you've been shot?
(18:54):
Because we had best sun and I wanted them to
check each other to see if they've been shot. And
on a couple of occasions there was a few guys
that were pretty upset about having been involved in a
real life shooting where their life could have been taken.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, there's no doubt that normally Lee was going to
shoot you. I mean he made look like he was surrendering,
lowered the weapon, but then he raised it and you
had no choice to fire. That didn't give you stress.
But I know that the killing of Frankie Velastro, well
known crook. You didn't pull the trigger, but that one
did give you some stress.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Why was that I knew him, I'd rested him years ago,
and I was prepared to arrest him again at that
particular instant, and I was gonna whisper in Frank gets George,
and that would have would have been a funny thing
at the top, because he was a bad guy. He
(19:49):
was a violent rapist, he was a thief, he was
a his firearms drug dealer a lot, and he was
into it. When he got out of Jile, he was
into it again. And it happened pretty quick. I mean
I was opening the back door. We could see him
when he walked out, and I was like, it was
all glass and the wide door and I was opening it,
and the guy next to me, thankfulness responded because the
(20:10):
last I went for his gun. He was a badass,
you know, and the guy next to me shot him
and he was dead before he hit the floor, and
that was an unfortunate day for him. But you know,
we all survived.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
It, but you did have some issues after it, and
then you've been a tough guy.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
It was funny because I had been involved in a
couple of incidents where they've been shots fired before when
I was a detective. There were several detectives on my
floor Robbie Squad and Major Crime Squad that I was
in that had been shot, none fatally, thinkingness, especially during
the Mad Max days, a couple of being shot good
mane of Mine, Rod McDonald and Sargant Caaperaninovski who had
(20:53):
been shot by Mad Max. So I've been through a lot,
but this particular thing, what happened was I just kept
seeing the lastra being shot and full down and it
was and it's driving me nuts. So I went to
the site and said, I'm experiencing this and he has
post traumatic stress. I said, I'm not stressed, and he goes,
(21:14):
but that's a symptom, and I've gone ah, so I'm
not going nuts and he said no. I never had
it again after I got told I was informed that
it was just a normal thing to experience, you know,
But from then on, no problems because I was mentally
trained and prepared for that sort of thing. We trained
with the Army the sas everyone is trained to. The
(21:37):
Armies are trained to kill first, and we're in a
much harder situation because we have to be justified wholly
and solely to use their weapons, where the army tend
to know that it's the enemy in the field that
they have to use their weapons, and we have a
harder situation. We've got to think hard about it before
we use our virums.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Well, and you know that this will be replayed in
slow motion in the Supreme Court of the Coroner's Court
and the whole public will be watching. So there's a
lot of pressure, a lot more today even I would say,
But did these experiences lead you to think about getting
involved and introducing non lethal options like the taser after
your career, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
For sure. I was looking at anything and everything.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
We had a guy approaches when I was in the
SAG with a thing called air taser, and it's the
old type one. It just didn't work that much. We
had a practice trial session at the Russell Street Gym
in the boxing ring, and they put me in. The
biggest guy on the sag hooded us and deployed this
(22:38):
air taser and it hurt, but it just got me angrier,
more worked up, and I fought harder at it.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And beat worked through it, and it just didn't work
that much.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It was pain compliant, and that's what battons oc spray
boughts to a certain extent, fists raal pain compliant taser
is to a point explain that, Well, if I go
up and pinch you on the arm, you go elch.
If I hit you with a bat and you go ol,
which might not necessarily stop you because he might be
so rage affected, drug mentally, alcohol affected, you may not
(23:14):
feel it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I got in a brawl once where we went in
and arrested the groom and the best man at a wedding.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
It must have been quite a wedding.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah, we sort of took a wild at aside to
let him get married and then gather reception. But that's
before the honeymoon, which was a topic of conversation afterwards.
But we went in, grabbed this bloke, hit him by
a headlock, dragged him out and it was a big
wedding and all the ladies started to have a food
fight with us, throwing plates and everything they could us.
(23:44):
But it was a lot of coppers there and I
wasn't going to let this bloke go. Dragged him out
through the crowd, through the crowd of coppers waiting outside,
police dogs, the whole thing barking, and then we handcuffed
and put him in the back of a van and
one of the guys said, George, you've been stabbed, and
I was going where and he goes on your back
so I had to watch it on covered in blood.
(24:06):
They lifted up and everyone laughed. There was a perfect
set of canine benches on my back. The police dog
bit me.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Your own dog.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
No, I didn't feel it, didn't feel it, didn't know it.
And that's what I was saying when your rage affected,
and I was at the time, you may not feel it.
You may not be deterred by a bat and no
sea spray or even being shit.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
You know, because this is terrifying for young recruits going
into police forces around the country. They're loaded up with
more options than batman on the utility belts and the
whole thing vests and the rest of it. But they're
also facing unique threats now. You've got people who are
ice affected, you've got people with mental health issues who've
been deinstitutionalized. You've got people who are now carrying knives.
(24:47):
There's a lot more people carrying knives now, so there's
got to be a range of options, and particularly where
people I think they're also fast tracking training as well.
There's a massive deficit of recruits. This all leads to
a fairly lethal cocktail out on the road. Yeah, I
don't don't you know. I feel sorry for them, but
(25:09):
it's up to them. It all comes back to the
office roomself train, Train, Train train. Physically, I was really
focused on my physical fitness and that helped me a
lot of my career, and not only just chasing crooks
or getting into situations you know, physical force or anything
(25:29):
like that, but mentally it helped me. You know some
blokes that go across the pub and drink their concerns away,
and I'd run up and down the stairs at Russell
Street and give everyone a laugh because they run up
and down and run up and now.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
But that's how I dealt with it. So what I'm
saying is officers. Now, if they realize, and they should
realize that they're not trained as well as they could be,
go out and train themselves, get onto YouTube, get onto
whatever they can, and just join pistol clubs. Because the
more efficient you are with a firearm, the less you'll
probably be using it, and if you use it, you'll
(26:03):
use it efficiently. Because they went from six shots to
fifteen shot magazines purely because in a lot of cases,
police officers panic in a situation of life and death,
would fire their first few rounds and miss and maybe
miss with all of them. So fifteen meant you had
(26:24):
more rounds to get on target. And you need to
be more efficient with firearms. You need to be more
efficient with anything you've got on your belt, baton, ac
spray or anything like that. And one of the things
I used to practice was I'd put everything on my
belt and I used to turn the lights off, and
I used to close my eyes and know exactly where
(26:44):
my gun was, exactly where my spare magazines were, exactly
where in my case we had zip ties for handcuffs.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
But I knew where all my equipment was and.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I had it on the same position every day, so
It was muscle memory, which is so important with training
to make sure that you respond quickly and accurately efficiently,
because under stress you revert to your training. If you
don't train much, you're going to run around like a
chip without its head. And that's why in situations that
(27:16):
I've been involved in, I've been able to react, and
my officers with me in the SAG, especially because we're
so well trained because we trained all day every day.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That's why we're so good at what we did.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Never had a fatality in SAG, had a couple of blankes,
fired a shot, but no actual injuries.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It's one thing about training and fitness and so forth,
but decision making is so important too. We roll back
to Clean Island. Example, Christian White made a poor decision.
When you've got all these options, how are you supposed
to organize your mind around what to use when, because
you'll have to explain it later on.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Look, you mentioned before he'd done a long shift. He's
probably mentally tied. And again where the fitness fitness helped
me a lot, it made me more awake. Were effishent
on the ball in training in the SAG. When I
first went there, we had to do one thing that
was a twenty mile not clumbing twenty miles where we'd
run on bitchman and GP boots overalls, carry a shotgun,
(28:22):
a water bottle and a handgun. And it was a
silly thing, but it was going back in the dark
ages where they introduced that, you know, you've got to
be a hard man, you know. And I got into
it and I said the boss, when I was the
instructor training new SAG members or a three month period,
I said, we've got to revert to reality based training.
(28:43):
And what that is is when I used to go
home sometimes on call, I'd get into bed and the
beeper go off in those days, and I'd ring the
office and they'd say, I've got a sieg John, so
you get up. Hadn't ending to sleep, probably a long
day training whatever, and I'd go out to a siege,
finish it by three or four in the morning, get
(29:03):
back home, get into bed. I remember this vividly had
one leg in bed and the people went off, George,
you're the on call bomb tech. You've got to go
to a suspected IUD bomb. And I get up went
to that fixed that it was a false alarm and
then too late, came back home, how to shower at work,
(29:24):
got ready for the next day's work, went through, did
our normal training, no excuses, and you can't go and
have a sleep, let's get out. And you know, we
had limited offices, so you had to do it. You
couldn't sook up and say, oh, you know, too tired.
You did it, and that was real life stuff. So
I introduced that reality based training into the SAG in
(29:46):
the early days. And what we did was we'd train
the guys hard during the day physically and mentally, making
them make decisions and so forth. And then we did
it at an old ym S building in the city
that's demolished now, but they gave it to us to
further demolishing their training, which was a bit of fun
(30:07):
and a bit of reality to do things there that
we did. And late at night after a nice big meal,
they're all happy that they ate nicely. And at the
end of the day we put him to bed in
these sleeping bags at the top of the roof. But
we had one guy as post security, and it was
a real you know, we wanted to keep it real.
(30:28):
About ten minutes after they all got into bed, they
all went off to sleep, and they all looked snubbled
in their sleeping bags. And then I said to the
guy and post, wake them up. We've got a seed situation.
And he looked at me with deer eyes in the
headlights sort of thing, and I said, wake him up.
Got them all up, and keep in mind they're in
(30:49):
a deep instant sleep and all of a sudden they're
required to operate as I was on those particular occasions
where I was waken up to the night we'd done repelling,
and it was a certain sort of repelling. You don't
have an anchor point. You use the anchor points as
your buddy system. So two of you have a harness on.
(31:11):
One would lay on the roof and the other one
to jump over, and his anchor point was the guy
on the roof. But there's a full croom point where
there was a little nib wall and the rope would
go over the nd wall and that was the pressure
that was on the rope. Scary when you're first, but
when the guys did it, they realized, you know, but
keep in mind now they're.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Tired, physically tired, mentally tired.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And they got their gas masks on because I kitted
them up with everything, gas masks that they'd been exposed
to gas that day. When I say gas, tear gas,
so that hurts, it's uncomfortable, it's annoying. Got the gas
masks on, you get limited breathing helmets, ballistic vest weapons,
method of entry tools, weighing you down. And they had
to slide down the rope and enter a couple of
(31:56):
flaws down which is about the fifth of the sixth floor.
But if they failed, they'd go to their death sort
of thing. There's a certain amount of pressure we put
on them. And then it started rain. The rapes got slippery,
and it was a scary situation for the untrained, but
we'd try to prepare him as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
One of the guys went to the.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Edge of the building and just before he jumped, I
put my hand on his shoulder and it was a
safety thing, and I just said, you safe, mister so
and so, and he looked at me, said yes, and
I said you sure you're safe, and he said and
then he started hesitating, And eventually we realized that he's
tied his rope in his figure eight, which is on
your harness and you should loop it in and not
(32:40):
put the tail end into the figure eight first, because
his next step was going to be his last step.
He was going to hit the bottom of the ground
and the rope was going to follow him through. So
that was under stress, under pressure. We put him under
so much he just failed his decision making. And that's
what we used to do. And one of the instructors
(33:01):
on my course said to me, because those really physically hard,
and every Friday afternoon they took you to your limits.
What he said to us after the course he said,
we took you to your limit and showed you there
was a beyond. So if you could do ten, twenty,
(33:22):
thirty fifty push ups at a time, they'd demand one more.
You get to them, You go right, I've got a
goal fifty push ups. Do fifty push ups. Done those, sir,
And then he'd say I want you to do one more,
and that one more was often took ten minutes. You
get halfway down, he said, hold it and you know.
(33:42):
So it was constant physical training, but mentally we threw
in a lot of mental stress as.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Well, especially when a little smart ass George Hateley, had
run a marathon virtually to get to the academy to
show how fitty was before you even got there, how
your knees these days? Mate?
Speaker 1 (33:58):
After all that, hadn't he replacement?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah? There you go.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Yeah, but you don't care, You don't you know. It's
all about you self esteem, your pride, your ego, and
you do things. I mean, I went during the course
my course, we had to do several runs and I
had done some repelling and inverted and landed against the
concrete wall and hit my glue really badly. And I
(34:23):
went to the physiad and the doctors and all that
try and fix it up before the Monday morning. And
then the next thing, he gave me a certificate not
to attend work for seven days. So I went back
to work on the Monday and did this run and
at the end of it, I walked out of the
instruct and gave him the certificate and he just looked
at it, laughed and screwed it up and through.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Aye. I wasn't going to let them beat me.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, and you certainly practice what you preach. Just on taser.
You've been tased I think more than a dozen times,
and it wasn't because you're an offender. I might ad
you do you volunteer it?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah, thirteen times, I counted every month.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
But what's it like?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Oh, excruciating pain, but funny enough. I really tested myself
and and it was a good example in Las Vegas
where I went for a conference and they had this
new taser technology called x RA and it was a
shotgun shell that fired out of a shotgun and deployed
a taser technology within it via an impact round. And
(35:22):
they asked for volunteers and I put my hand up
because I'd put my hand up during the conference a
lot of times. They've done a lot of medical and
scientific tests on blokes that were fat, alcoholics, smoked, unfit, obeese, whatever.
I'd put my hand up each time they wouldn't pick me.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
And I went up to him.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I said, I've traveled all the way from Australia and
you haven't let me play any games yet, and they
said they laughed, and they said, George, you ain't smoke,
you don't drink, you're fit. We want people that are
you know, out in the street, potential people that might
get exposed to days. We want to test that. And
they tested it so much detail medically and scientifically. Anyway,
(36:04):
I put my hand up to test the extrap and
then everyone's clapping and I looked around and there's only
one other blake that put his hand up out of
four hundred and fifty coppers.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
There clever, And I thought, oo, what have I done here?
Speaker 3 (36:19):
So the first blake went up and on stage, they
connected him up rather than shitting, because it was an
impact round. It would have put a golf ball size
lump on your chest if they had to hit me,
and instead they connected the technology with alligator clips, which
worked the same electrical exposure.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
On your skin clothing.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
The clothing, Yeah, that's none of the nipples or anything
like had a bit of extra pain to it.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Now I could mention, O, there is, but that was painful.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
So they connected him up first, and he screamed like
a pig, like a stuff pig.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And I thought, Jesus, you know.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
And even one of the girls in the office, one
of the taser girls, said, George, I was feeling so
sorry if you've happened to go up there.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Anyway, I go up.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
They got this bloke on the floor, they cannect me up.
They hit me with it, and it was a different
sort of exposure. It was like waves of pain. It
was interesting, it was different, and I didn't make a sound.
And at the end of the five seconds, everyone is cheered,
and they put a microphone in front of me and said,
(37:23):
how did you feel? And I said that hurt like
how I think I might have said it hurt like shit,
you know. And he said, wa, didn't your squall at
And I said, I didn't want to let you blakes
know how much it hurt and the whole place, you know,
I just come out with you. I was the type explanation.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And then in a great moment of questionable parenting, you
got your daughter at another conference to get tased as well.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
In fairness, she volunteered. She said to me, Dad, can
I get exposed to taste? And I said anyway. She said,
after I have a child, I want to get tased.
So she volunteered. No. I got her on a course
here in Melbourne forty five guys from around Australia, so
st guys, tough physically tough blakes. And they all got
(38:11):
on the course and early in the very early in
the course, the first couple of hours they say, okay,
we I want people to get exposed to taste. It
unlike today, not allowed to not allowed to do it
too scary, I said, I want a volunteer. My daughter
put her hand up first, and everyone's looking, and my
daughter's quite an attractive girl. She fed long blonde hair
(38:31):
in a pony tail, and half the blakes were looking
at her. And I was lining up a few blakes
to warn them, and one in particular came up and
he said she married, and I said, yeah, and stay away.
She volunteers and hearts. The two Americans I had out
instructors master instructors said George, you're sure about this, and
I said, yeah, she wants it.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
They go, are We're going to shoot her? And I said, no, wait,
you shoot her.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
So they lined her up and had a person either
side of her to help her down on the mats,
as was the practice, rather than let someone for because
they can hurt themselves and that's the byproduct of tasing
someone sometimes. Anyway, they exposed the five seconds, laid it down.
She sprung up on her feet, turned around and without
(39:17):
making a sound during the whole five seconds, turned around
and said, not as painful as childbirth, and the forty
five blakes all just dropped their chins, and you know,
every one of them got tased, and every one of
them screened, and they're all embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
And you've gone, that's my daughter.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
That was funny.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Now the threats keep coming. The officers are well equipped.
We see new variants of non lethal options like bean
bags and we've got taser. What's the future is it
better decision making, better training, or bigger guns and more
sophisticated non lethal options.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
A mixture better training. I can't emphasize enough. Train, train, train,
with anything and everything. Whatever you've got better alternatives in
the future. There's someone in the pipeline. But in fairness
to police agency's and what room there is on belts,
it's limited what they can introduce, and they've got what
they've got.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
They just had to work with what they've got.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
I mean, I started off from the police force with
a branding thirty two caliber pistol which would just bounce
off a crook with a leather jacket on. And we
had a little lead filled baton that we used to
put in our pocket with a secret pocket inside the
pocket that you kept this baton that never used it.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
You'd be embarrassed if you pulled it out.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
And that was it. We had to use our fists
in those days, which wasn't a lot of fun going
to the George Hotel and Sint Kilda, which was an
interesting exercise every time we used to go in with
the Heber coppers and police dogs and all come out
with bruises and scratches.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
It's funny that kind of an.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Og kind of way. Anyway, Thanks for you Tom George.
It's a fascinating topic and I think it's tremendous that
the state police forces and the FEDS, I guess are
looking at officer safety because we've got a hugely high
level of assaults on lease, many more life threatening situations.
It's very dangerous out there and they need to be equipped,
but also they need to be trained very well. If
(41:13):
you've got stories for us, please get in touch. You
can send me an email Adam Shand writer at Gmail.
Maybe you've been tased, maybe you've been person who's operated
to taste. I love to hear from you. This has
been real crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host, Adam Shand,
thanks for listening.
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanned. I'm your host,
Adam Shan Let's talk about tases. In May twenty twenty three,
ninety five year old Claire Allen died after being tasered
by New South Wales police officer Christian White.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
The great grandmother died overnight one week after allegedly being
tasered at her nursing home in Cooma, south of Canbero.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
White was charged and found guilty of manslaughter, be the
avoided jail, being sentenced to a two year community corrections order.
There was a fair bit of public outrage about that
and it sort of brought tases back into the public
debate again. Tayses have been around for thirty years. You
could say that they've saved maybe three hundred thousand plus
lives from death or serious bodily injury in situations where
(00:59):
the lethal force would have been justified. Yet still, when
you ask artificial and intelligence whether tases are safe, I
will tell you that there's still no consensus. Tases are
generally considered less lethal and safe when used correctly, but
they still carry risks, especially for vulnerable people or in
high stress situations. Some studies suggest that the taser can
(01:23):
directly pace the heart into a ventricular fibrillation. Now North America,
there have apparently been over four hundred and forty deaths
where tases have been used, but the people have died afterwards.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Police purpose bray and taser ninety two year old amputee
who died three weeks after assault at care home.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
George Hateley was a Special Operations Group police officer in
Victoria and was involved in lethal confrontations with firearms during
his service. After leaving the force, George introduced the taser
to Australia. And he's my guest today. Get a George.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Hey, glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
The controversy over tases continues. Your experience is very different.
Are they safe?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
They're safe as anything. It's safer than most things that
police that carry on their belt or on their best
They're extremely safe. And I can back that up with
medical and scientific and my experience over twenty five years
with taser.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And yet AI still says there's no consensus. But what
is AI know?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
AI doesn't know the true facts and details that I know.
And I can strongly say that they are safe, and
I'd argue with AI any day. About that, and AI
is dependent on what information you put into it, and
I've got information that would improve its intelligence.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Because in the case of clear Nyland, to me, that
was not the taser. That was just poor police practice.
Yet taser gets mentioned every time. Can we go through
that instance and just work out what went wrong? And
that's such. It was five am, for instance, he was
at the end of his shift. They were asked to
come back again to deal with Claire, who was walking
around the corridors of the nursing home brandishing a steak knife.
(03:05):
I don't think it should ever have been used.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
No, it's like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut,
way over the top. I think, you know, everyone would
agree with me to say that was unnecessary, unacceptable in
a tragic situation.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Shouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I could have thrown a bucket of water on her
or grail that I would have had this better effect
than what she was exposed to.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It was a horrible thing.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Because let's explain what a taser actually is.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, it's an electric emission device. And when I say that,
it's operated by a battery, and basically I'll talk in
layman's terms. It takes about ten amps to kill someone.
You know, if you stick your finger in a two
forty volt PowerPoint, you could get electrocuted, and the ampswer kill.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It's not the voltage.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Fifty thousand bolts is just an ability to transfer the
electricity from one point to the other. You can go
Science Works and touch a device down there. It's got
a million bolts and they'll stand your hair up right.
It's quite funny. We often go through doors and get
out of cars and get zapped by voltage.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's not going to hurt us.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
The difference between Taser is interesting, and I go back
to the guy that actually invented the technology. His name
escapes me at the moment, but he was at NASA.
He was reading his paper and he's reading an article
where a farmer had been connected to a wire fence
(04:38):
for several hours and he didn't die. This sinus couldn't
work out why, and he investigated it, and what had
happened was a power pole had fallen over and the
electricity had connected with the wire fence and the charge
was traveling down the wire, but it was intermittent charge.
(04:58):
Now that's different to what electricity does to us. If
we get a charge of electricity, it's constant, where Taser
has pulsating charging. For example, when you're exposed to Taser,
you get exposed nineteen times a second of electrical pulses,
not a constant charge. A constant charge will kill you.
(05:19):
But the pulses give a breathing space Albert nine seconds.
So that's basically how it works. If you're talking about amperage,
like I said, it takes about ten amps to kill someone.
Taser has got point zero zero to one amps, so
two hundredth of an amp. That's the amount of amperage
(05:42):
you know Taser. So when you look at it that way,
it can't kill. It medically can't kill. And I've looked
at a lot of those AI studies or examples. You
look at them and they're old, they're twenty eight years old.
We're talking early two thousands where TAYS was extremely controversial
(06:03):
and Amnesty International jumped on board. Everyone jumped on board
saying these are devices of torture, they are killing people
and so forth. And you mentioned four hundred and forty
Taser deaths, Well, if you look at it, they were
probably Taser related deaths. And I know from examples that
a lot of these taser related deaths are related because
(06:26):
taser was used. I can name a lot of deaths
that happened similar sort of circumstances where police and I
won't say bad guys but mentally disturbed people were involved
and they died. Taser wasn't there, so it wasn't that
much controversy, but they died from things like positional a
fixture where three, four or five heavy coppers would land
(06:47):
on top of them.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
They couldn't breathe, they die.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
That's the George Floyd example from America, where.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It's similar to pin down, or the Brazilian student back
how many years ago, six, seven, eight years ago might.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Be longer, Yeah, it might be looking up.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But that one always gets played when people talk about
tasers that they refer to the Brazilian student shoplifting in Sydney.
He gets chased, police attend and he's tasted, but then
they all jump on him as well.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Tragic, but the homicide squad rang me up the next morning.
He said, George blake'spain taser.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
He's died.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I've had a few phone calls like that over the years,
and I straight away said, tell me the circumstances, they
told me, and I go, Tas, it didn't kill him,
And I go, he, do you know that. You know
I'm in Sydney, I'm in Melbourne at the time. And
I said, I can tell you now from what you've
told me, tases didn't kill him unless he swallowed it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
He might have choked on it and died. That's the
only way it can kill.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
What happened in actual fact with that, and the coroner
came and gave that decision. And the thing I said
to the homicide squad that morning, tell me about the
actual wires, because the wires that are used to tether
the dart to the cartridge, So you've got wires inside
the cartridge. When the electricity hits the cartridge, it deploys
(08:02):
two darts, one at horizontal eight degrees, and it spreads
the darts, which spreads the electricity. And in the case
of deploying it properly, the wires should be crimped, because
they're crimped when they go in the cardres they folded
and they have this crease in the wire. I said,
(08:24):
what are the wires like and he said, oh, one's
crimped and one straight. I said, well, one didn't connect
to him. He said, how do you know that? And
I said, well, if you fire a taser into mid air,
the wires will deploy to the maximum distance and they'll stretch.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
They won't have a crimp.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And he said, ah, it was simple, so it wasn't effective.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
No, it didn't.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
And even if it did, the currenter said it was
positional to fix youre that killed him. They all piled
on top of him. Keep in mind, those policemen at
that time of the morning had done a shift through
the night. One of their members, another officer, had been
shot during an armed robbery attempt m robbery. And the
(09:05):
little bloke in the seven eleven that called the police
it was a language barrier and he said robbery, robbery,
and they've got this over the air Chinese whisper that
there was another armed rubbery in progress. Police, having experienced
that in that shift late at night, early in the morning,
went to it hyped up. Saw this bloke run out
(09:25):
of the seven eleven store, bare chested off. He goes,
please chase him. They fired the taser. They eventually get
to him, pole on top of him.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
He dies.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Coroner, not the media, not you, mah or anyone else.
The coroner said he died from this, not taser. And
I can give you dozens of examples, and some of
them in Australia and mostly around the world.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, that was now twelve years ago. That was Betho Ladizio,
the Brazilian student, and that really has stuck with people
in their minds when they think about tasers. But as
you say, people don't read the fine detail. And you
you were in Victoria Police during a very bloody era
when a lot of suspects were shot. You were involved
in at least two operations where suspects did die. What's
(10:14):
the alternative where if you're having to shoot suspects who
could otherwise be incapacitated, where are we.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I was involved in one two, I was involved in
quite a few. Not the shooter in every case, but
I saw a lot of deaths as a result of
lethal force. And as a result of that, not me,
but the hierarchy decided to bring in a new system
where it was called Operation Beacon. And I actually left
(10:42):
the police force and they brought that in.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Because of that.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
No, no, no, no, no, it was more political. I
enjoyed my life in the police force. I joined on
the twelfth of July seventy six, resigned on the twelfth
of July ninety four, and I designed it that way
and went into business that I'm in now, So.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
You look for alternatives.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
The alternative then was not knee jerk, but it was like,
we're going to do something to stop this ongoing fatality rate.
And interesting period because the inspector in charge of the
police training at the time was Inspected Jim Ben, a
good mate of mine, had been in the SAG, like
a lot of other guys that went from promotion after
(11:27):
they left the SAG, went to training, and what happened was,
in my early days, you were told not take a
gun out of your host unless you get shot at.
What Jim and all the other guys taught police officers
was defend yourself. Now, I can tell you a dozen
or twenty five different reasons why you should get your
(11:48):
gun out if you were facing a real and impending threat,
because basically, a criminal can fire a weapon before you
can send a message from your brain down your finger
to defend yourself, So you have to have that weapon
out if you've faced with a real threat to your life.
So they started training in that respect. They started training
(12:10):
a much better tactically better use of firearm, but more
importantly the tactical side of things. And what happened, as
Jim ben said to the media at the time, they said,
why Victoria police shooting more people? In fact, the whole
of Australia double at was Victoria's rate of shooting. Jim
(12:30):
Vent very casually sat back and said, because we're better shots,
and that was fact.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That was true. You couldn't ask him to explain about.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And the people being shot also had firearms themselves. A
bit of a war going on at that time between
the police and the crooks, which obviously culminated in the
Wall Street murders of two police.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Officers, Damien Here and Stephen Tynan, which is really tragic, horrible.
So you look for alternatives. Beacon was one, but you
look at what the world's like now. It's more equality.
So you got little people. When I say little people
physically not what they used to have. I used to wear,
(13:12):
you know, I wore thick socks when I went for
the high test and just got in and I'm five
nine and.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
A half and I think you've added an inch they
heaven you, Yeah, I think I might.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I think you did.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I shrunk jumping out a helicopters too much. So you've
got a different type of person on the street now.
They're not physically able to deal hand to hand combat.
So we need to give them the proper tools. Because
if you are faced with again a real and impending
thread and you're a person that is looking at six
(13:42):
foot six and he says I'm going to take that
gun off you and shove out your backside, and you
know that sort of thing, you've got to give them
an alternative otherwise they're going to use that lethal force,
and they justified to. If a bloke comes to me
and says I'm going to kill you and I've only
got a gun, I'm going to have to use a
gun against you, it's gun day.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It's gun day. Yeah. So taser is a great alternative battens.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, but you know you've got to get in close
and close caught a battle situation. It's not always ideal,
and unless you're an expert you train every day all day,
it just doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
OC spray.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
You know, I've been drowned in it and still run
through courses where being drowned in it, shoot targets do
relaads and shoot accurately and still suffering in pain and discomfort.
It doesn't stop you. And especially if you're mentally rage, alcohol,
drug effected, it may not affect you at all. Oc
(14:41):
spray or hit with a baton and I swung a
bat and a couple of times until that didn't work,
bounced off their head. But tas is a different thing.
Taser will incapacitate. It works like a bullet in a
lot of ways, but it hasn't that lethality. A bullet
placed between the eyes and followed down through the spinal cord.
(15:02):
I think it's don't quote me, but it's C two
C three of the spinal cord will topple a person
over instantly.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Roughly just near the breastbone sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
I think it's just below the base of the head
around down the back of the neck sort of thing
that area. Because I've seen it, I've done a lot
of research, I've spoken a lot of other place in
respect to shootings. And there's a classic movie people can
go watch The FBI Killings. It's a fantastic Hollywood movie,
(15:33):
quite old. But I saw the recreation of that particular
shooting in Miami, Florida, where several FBI agents confronted two
sailans heavily armed, and the coroner at the end of
the thing where two FBI agents were killed. The two
bad guys were killed, but two FBI agents were killed
(15:53):
and five were injured shot and the coroner said that
one of the first rounds that the FBI agent shot
was a fatal shot to the bad guy, but he
walked around for two minutes, killed a couple of agents,
and shot a few more. So, bullet doesn't always stop
a real and impending threat. People can still die. And
(16:14):
that bullet went through his heart, by the way, and
he still walked around for to admitute tayser will incapacit
properly deployed, properly trained people, and I emphasized properly train
officers will deploy Taser. It will work every time. Taser
doesn't fail. Taser unit don't fail. It's the operators that
(16:35):
failed to deploy properly.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Because you've been in that life and death situation at
the airport there with normally Lee when he was robbing
the ANSET terminal there. This is back in ninety two.
They were very determined he was a very good arm robber,
and he was ready to kill officers. That day, you
were faced with that moment where they were trying to
get away, you were there.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
What happened in a nutshell, I was faced with a
real impending threat and Lee pointed a weapon towards me,
and I felt instantly didn't even hesitate the fire because
of the fact that I was defending myself. I had
had sufficient training. We'd actually rehearsed for weeks and weeks
and weeks on that pending arrest that we didn't know
(17:19):
what they were going to do, whether they're going to
hold a bankup or a payroll or something at the airport.
Then it eventuated it was at the airport, and it
was a situation that happened in nanoseconds, But it was
the training that brought it out that I responded very quickly,
and unfortunately for him, I got in first before.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
He got me.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I'd say, that's fortunate for you, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I put that back down to my training people.
You know, we had to manatorily go to see the psychologist,
and I was pretty settled about it, pretty comfortable with
what I did because I'd trained for it. We'd talked
about these sort of situations, debriefed over shootings that we've
(18:03):
been involved with before, so mentally I was prepared for it.
And the problem with on the street coppers when they
get into those sort of situations, they're faced with traumatic
stress because they haven't had the training that we'd had.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And taking life is a big deal.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
But you know what, a lot of times police think
about it could have been them instead, and that's what
traumatizes officers more so than taking a life.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
And that's my opinion.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I could be debated on that, but I've spoken a
lot of police that have been in shootings and one
of the first things they worried about, oh, George could
have been made. You know, I've been in situation where
other offers, we've been involved in shootings and we've had
I've said buddy up and checked for bullet holes and
they've gone what And I go check if you've been shot?
(18:54):
Because we had best sun and I wanted them to
check each other to see if they've been shot. And
on a couple of occasions there was a few guys
that were pretty upset about having been involved in a
real life shooting where their life could have been taken.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, there's no doubt that normally Lee was going to
shoot you. I mean he made look like he was surrendering,
lowered the weapon, but then he raised it and you
had no choice to fire. That didn't give you stress.
But I know that the killing of Frankie Velastro, well
known crook. You didn't pull the trigger, but that one
did give you some stress.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Why was that I knew him, I'd rested him years ago,
and I was prepared to arrest him again at that
particular instant, and I was gonna whisper in Frank gets George,
and that would have would have been a funny thing
at the top, because he was a bad guy. He
(19:49):
was a violent rapist, he was a thief, he was
a his firearms drug dealer a lot, and he was
into it. When he got out of Jile, he was
into it again. And it happened pretty quick. I mean
I was opening the back door. We could see him
when he walked out, and I was like, it was
all glass and the wide door and I was opening it,
and the guy next to me, thankfulness responded because the
(20:10):
last I went for his gun. He was a badass,
you know, and the guy next to me shot him
and he was dead before he hit the floor, and
that was an unfortunate day for him. But you know,
we all survived.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
It, but you did have some issues after it, and
then you've been a tough guy.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
It was funny because I had been involved in a
couple of incidents where they've been shots fired before when
I was a detective. There were several detectives on my
floor Robbie Squad and Major Crime Squad that I was
in that had been shot, none fatally, thinkingness, especially during
the Mad Max days, a couple of being shot good
mane of Mine, Rod McDonald and Sargant Caaperaninovski who had
(20:53):
been shot by Mad Max. So I've been through a lot,
but this particular thing, what happened was I just kept
seeing the lastra being shot and full down and it
was and it's driving me nuts. So I went to
the site and said, I'm experiencing this and he has
post traumatic stress. I said, I'm not stressed, and he goes,
(21:14):
but that's a symptom, and I've gone ah, so I'm
not going nuts and he said no. I never had
it again after I got told I was informed that
it was just a normal thing to experience, you know,
But from then on, no problems because I was mentally
trained and prepared for that sort of thing. We trained
with the Army the sas everyone is trained to. The
(21:37):
Armies are trained to kill first, and we're in a
much harder situation because we have to be justified wholly
and solely to use their weapons, where the army tend
to know that it's the enemy in the field that
they have to use their weapons, and we have a
harder situation. We've got to think hard about it before
we use our virums.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Well, and you know that this will be replayed in
slow motion in the Supreme Court of the Coroner's Court
and the whole public will be watching. So there's a
lot of pressure, a lot more today even I would say,
But did these experiences lead you to think about getting
involved and introducing non lethal options like the taser after
your career, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
For sure. I was looking at anything and everything.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
We had a guy approaches when I was in the
SAG with a thing called air taser, and it's the
old type one. It just didn't work that much. We
had a practice trial session at the Russell Street Gym
in the boxing ring, and they put me in. The
biggest guy on the sag hooded us and deployed this
(22:38):
air taser and it hurt, but it just got me angrier,
more worked up, and I fought harder at it.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And beat worked through it, and it just didn't work
that much.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It was pain compliant, and that's what battons oc spray
boughts to a certain extent, fists raal pain compliant taser
is to a point explain that, Well, if I go
up and pinch you on the arm, you go elch.
If I hit you with a bat and you go ol,
which might not necessarily stop you because he might be
so rage affected, drug mentally, alcohol affected, you may not
(23:14):
feel it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I got in a brawl once where we went in
and arrested the groom and the best man at a wedding.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
It must have been quite a wedding.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah, we sort of took a wild at aside to
let him get married and then gather reception. But that's
before the honeymoon, which was a topic of conversation afterwards.
But we went in, grabbed this bloke, hit him by
a headlock, dragged him out and it was a big
wedding and all the ladies started to have a food
fight with us, throwing plates and everything they could us.
(23:44):
But it was a lot of coppers there and I
wasn't going to let this bloke go. Dragged him out
through the crowd, through the crowd of coppers waiting outside,
police dogs, the whole thing barking, and then we handcuffed
and put him in the back of a van and
one of the guys said, George, you've been stabbed, and
I was going where and he goes on your back
so I had to watch it on covered in blood.
(24:06):
They lifted up and everyone laughed. There was a perfect
set of canine benches on my back. The police dog
bit me.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Your own dog.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
No, I didn't feel it, didn't feel it, didn't know it.
And that's what I was saying when your rage affected,
and I was at the time, you may not feel it.
You may not be deterred by a bat and no
sea spray or even being shit.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
You know, because this is terrifying for young recruits going
into police forces around the country. They're loaded up with
more options than batman on the utility belts and the
whole thing vests and the rest of it. But they're
also facing unique threats now. You've got people who are
ice affected, you've got people with mental health issues who've
been deinstitutionalized. You've got people who are now carrying knives.
(24:47):
There's a lot more people carrying knives now, so there's
got to be a range of options, and particularly where
people I think they're also fast tracking training as well.
There's a massive deficit of recruits. This all leads to
a fairly lethal cocktail out on the road. Yeah, I
don't don't you know. I feel sorry for them, but
(25:09):
it's up to them. It all comes back to the
office roomself train, Train, Train train. Physically, I was really
focused on my physical fitness and that helped me a
lot of my career, and not only just chasing crooks
or getting into situations you know, physical force or anything
(25:29):
like that, but mentally it helped me. You know some
blokes that go across the pub and drink their concerns away,
and I'd run up and down the stairs at Russell
Street and give everyone a laugh because they run up
and down and run up and now.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
But that's how I dealt with it. So what I'm
saying is officers. Now, if they realize, and they should
realize that they're not trained as well as they could be,
go out and train themselves, get onto YouTube, get onto
whatever they can, and just join pistol clubs. Because the
more efficient you are with a firearm, the less you'll
probably be using it, and if you use it, you'll
(26:03):
use it efficiently. Because they went from six shots to
fifteen shot magazines purely because in a lot of cases,
police officers panic in a situation of life and death,
would fire their first few rounds and miss and maybe
miss with all of them. So fifteen meant you had
(26:24):
more rounds to get on target. And you need to
be more efficient with firearms. You need to be more
efficient with anything you've got on your belt, baton, ac
spray or anything like that. And one of the things
I used to practice was I'd put everything on my
belt and I used to turn the lights off, and
I used to close my eyes and know exactly where
(26:44):
my gun was, exactly where my spare magazines were, exactly
where in my case we had zip ties for handcuffs.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
But I knew where all my equipment was and.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I had it on the same position every day, so
It was muscle memory, which is so important with training
to make sure that you respond quickly and accurately efficiently,
because under stress you revert to your training. If you
don't train much, you're going to run around like a
chip without its head. And that's why in situations that
(27:16):
I've been involved in, I've been able to react, and
my officers with me in the SAG, especially because we're
so well trained because we trained all day every day.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That's why we're so good at what we did.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Never had a fatality in SAG, had a couple of blankes,
fired a shot, but no actual injuries.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It's one thing about training and fitness and so forth,
but decision making is so important too. We roll back
to Clean Island. Example, Christian White made a poor decision.
When you've got all these options, how are you supposed
to organize your mind around what to use when, because
you'll have to explain it later on.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Look, you mentioned before he'd done a long shift. He's
probably mentally tied. And again where the fitness fitness helped
me a lot, it made me more awake. Were effishent
on the ball in training in the SAG. When I
first went there, we had to do one thing that
was a twenty mile not clumbing twenty miles where we'd
run on bitchman and GP boots overalls, carry a shotgun,
(28:22):
a water bottle and a handgun. And it was a
silly thing, but it was going back in the dark
ages where they introduced that, you know, you've got to
be a hard man, you know. And I got into
it and I said the boss, when I was the
instructor training new SAG members or a three month period,
I said, we've got to revert to reality based training.
(28:43):
And what that is is when I used to go
home sometimes on call, I'd get into bed and the
beeper go off in those days, and I'd ring the
office and they'd say, I've got a sieg John, so
you get up. Hadn't ending to sleep, probably a long
day training whatever, and I'd go out to a siege,
finish it by three or four in the morning, get
(29:03):
back home, get into bed. I remember this vividly had
one leg in bed and the people went off, George,
you're the on call bomb tech. You've got to go
to a suspected IUD bomb. And I get up went
to that fixed that it was a false alarm and
then too late, came back home, how to shower at work,
(29:24):
got ready for the next day's work, went through, did
our normal training, no excuses, and you can't go and
have a sleep, let's get out. And you know, we
had limited offices, so you had to do it. You
couldn't sook up and say, oh, you know, too tired.
You did it, and that was real life stuff. So
I introduced that reality based training into the SAG in
(29:46):
the early days. And what we did was we'd train
the guys hard during the day physically and mentally, making
them make decisions and so forth. And then we did
it at an old ym S building in the city
that's demolished now, but they gave it to us to
further demolishing their training, which was a bit of fun
(30:07):
and a bit of reality to do things there that
we did. And late at night after a nice big meal,
they're all happy that they ate nicely. And at the
end of the day we put him to bed in
these sleeping bags at the top of the roof. But
we had one guy as post security, and it was
a real you know, we wanted to keep it real.
(30:28):
About ten minutes after they all got into bed, they
all went off to sleep, and they all looked snubbled
in their sleeping bags. And then I said to the
guy and post, wake them up. We've got a seed situation.
And he looked at me with deer eyes in the
headlights sort of thing, and I said, wake him up.
Got them all up, and keep in mind they're in
(30:49):
a deep instant sleep and all of a sudden they're
required to operate as I was on those particular occasions
where I was waken up to the night we'd done repelling,
and it was a certain sort of repelling. You don't
have an anchor point. You use the anchor points as
your buddy system. So two of you have a harness on.
(31:11):
One would lay on the roof and the other one
to jump over, and his anchor point was the guy
on the roof. But there's a full croom point where
there was a little nib wall and the rope would
go over the nd wall and that was the pressure
that was on the rope. Scary when you're first, but
when the guys did it, they realized, you know, but
keep in mind now they're.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Tired, physically tired, mentally tired.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And they got their gas masks on because I kitted
them up with everything, gas masks that they'd been exposed
to gas that day. When I say gas, tear gas,
so that hurts, it's uncomfortable, it's annoying. Got the gas
masks on, you get limited breathing helmets, ballistic vest weapons,
method of entry tools, weighing you down. And they had
to slide down the rope and enter a couple of
(31:56):
flaws down which is about the fifth of the sixth floor.
But if they failed, they'd go to their death sort
of thing. There's a certain amount of pressure we put
on them. And then it started rain. The rapes got slippery,
and it was a scary situation for the untrained, but
we'd try to prepare him as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
One of the guys went to the.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Edge of the building and just before he jumped, I
put my hand on his shoulder and it was a
safety thing, and I just said, you safe, mister so
and so, and he looked at me, said yes, and
I said you sure you're safe, and he said and
then he started hesitating, And eventually we realized that he's
tied his rope in his figure eight, which is on
your harness and you should loop it in and not
(32:40):
put the tail end into the figure eight first, because
his next step was going to be his last step.
He was going to hit the bottom of the ground
and the rope was going to follow him through. So
that was under stress, under pressure. We put him under
so much he just failed his decision making. And that's
what we used to do. And one of the instructors
(33:01):
on my course said to me, because those really physically hard,
and every Friday afternoon they took you to your limits.
What he said to us after the course he said,
we took you to your limit and showed you there
was a beyond. So if you could do ten, twenty,
(33:22):
thirty fifty push ups at a time, they'd demand one more.
You get to them, You go right, I've got a
goal fifty push ups. Do fifty push ups. Done those, sir,
And then he'd say I want you to do one more,
and that one more was often took ten minutes. You
get halfway down, he said, hold it and you know.
(33:42):
So it was constant physical training, but mentally we threw
in a lot of mental stress as.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Well, especially when a little smart ass George Hateley, had
run a marathon virtually to get to the academy to
show how fitty was before you even got there, how
your knees these days? Mate?
Speaker 1 (33:58):
After all that, hadn't he replacement?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah? There you go.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Yeah, but you don't care, You don't you know. It's
all about you self esteem, your pride, your ego, and
you do things. I mean, I went during the course
my course, we had to do several runs and I
had done some repelling and inverted and landed against the
concrete wall and hit my glue really badly. And I
(34:23):
went to the physiad and the doctors and all that
try and fix it up before the Monday morning. And
then the next thing, he gave me a certificate not
to attend work for seven days. So I went back
to work on the Monday and did this run and
at the end of it, I walked out of the
instruct and gave him the certificate and he just looked
at it, laughed and screwed it up and through.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Aye. I wasn't going to let them beat me.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, and you certainly practice what you preach. Just on taser.
You've been tased I think more than a dozen times,
and it wasn't because you're an offender. I might ad
you do you volunteer it?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah, thirteen times, I counted every month.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
But what's it like?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Oh, excruciating pain, but funny enough. I really tested myself
and and it was a good example in Las Vegas
where I went for a conference and they had this
new taser technology called x RA and it was a
shotgun shell that fired out of a shotgun and deployed
a taser technology within it via an impact round. And
(35:22):
they asked for volunteers and I put my hand up
because I'd put my hand up during the conference a
lot of times. They've done a lot of medical and
scientific tests on blokes that were fat, alcoholics, smoked, unfit, obeese, whatever.
I'd put my hand up each time they wouldn't pick me.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
And I went up to him.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I said, I've traveled all the way from Australia and
you haven't let me play any games yet, and they
said they laughed, and they said, George, you ain't smoke,
you don't drink, you're fit. We want people that are
you know, out in the street, potential people that might
get exposed to days. We want to test that. And
they tested it so much detail medically and scientifically. Anyway,
(36:04):
I put my hand up to test the extrap and
then everyone's clapping and I looked around and there's only
one other blake that put his hand up out of
four hundred and fifty coppers.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
There clever, And I thought, oo, what have I done here?
Speaker 3 (36:19):
So the first blake went up and on stage, they
connected him up rather than shitting, because it was an
impact round. It would have put a golf ball size
lump on your chest if they had to hit me,
and instead they connected the technology with alligator clips, which
worked the same electrical exposure.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
On your skin clothing.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
The clothing, Yeah, that's none of the nipples or anything
like had a bit of extra pain to it.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Now I could mention, O, there is, but that was painful.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
So they connected him up first, and he screamed like
a pig, like a stuff pig.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And I thought, Jesus, you know.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
And even one of the girls in the office, one
of the taser girls, said, George, I was feeling so
sorry if you've happened to go up there.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Anyway, I go up.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
They got this bloke on the floor, they cannect me up.
They hit me with it, and it was a different
sort of exposure. It was like waves of pain. It
was interesting, it was different, and I didn't make a sound.
And at the end of the five seconds, everyone is cheered,
and they put a microphone in front of me and said,
(37:23):
how did you feel? And I said that hurt like
how I think I might have said it hurt like shit,
you know. And he said, wa, didn't your squall at
And I said, I didn't want to let you blakes
know how much it hurt and the whole place, you know,
I just come out with you. I was the type explanation.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And then in a great moment of questionable parenting, you
got your daughter at another conference to get tased as well.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
In fairness, she volunteered. She said to me, Dad, can
I get exposed to taste? And I said anyway. She said,
after I have a child, I want to get tased.
So she volunteered. No. I got her on a course
here in Melbourne forty five guys from around Australia, so
st guys, tough physically tough blakes. And they all got
(38:11):
on the course and early in the very early in
the course, the first couple of hours they say, okay,
we I want people to get exposed to taste. It
unlike today, not allowed to not allowed to do it
too scary, I said, I want a volunteer. My daughter
put her hand up first, and everyone's looking, and my
daughter's quite an attractive girl. She fed long blonde hair
(38:31):
in a pony tail, and half the blakes were looking
at her. And I was lining up a few blakes
to warn them, and one in particular came up and
he said she married, and I said, yeah, and stay away.
She volunteers and hearts. The two Americans I had out
instructors master instructors said George, you're sure about this, and
I said, yeah, she wants it.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
They go, are We're going to shoot her? And I said, no, wait,
you shoot her.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
So they lined her up and had a person either
side of her to help her down on the mats,
as was the practice, rather than let someone for because
they can hurt themselves and that's the byproduct of tasing
someone sometimes. Anyway, they exposed the five seconds, laid it down.
She sprung up on her feet, turned around and without
(39:17):
making a sound during the whole five seconds, turned around
and said, not as painful as childbirth, and the forty
five blakes all just dropped their chins, and you know,
every one of them got tased, and every one of
them screened, and they're all embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
And you've gone, that's my daughter.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
That was funny.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Now the threats keep coming. The officers are well equipped.
We see new variants of non lethal options like bean
bags and we've got taser. What's the future is it
better decision making, better training, or bigger guns and more
sophisticated non lethal options.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
A mixture better training. I can't emphasize enough. Train, train, train,
with anything and everything. Whatever you've got better alternatives in
the future. There's someone in the pipeline. But in fairness
to police agency's and what room there is on belts,
it's limited what they can introduce, and they've got what
they've got.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
They just had to work with what they've got.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
I mean, I started off from the police force with
a branding thirty two caliber pistol which would just bounce
off a crook with a leather jacket on. And we
had a little lead filled baton that we used to
put in our pocket with a secret pocket inside the
pocket that you kept this baton that never used it.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
You'd be embarrassed if you pulled it out.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
And that was it. We had to use our fists
in those days, which wasn't a lot of fun going
to the George Hotel and Sint Kilda, which was an
interesting exercise every time we used to go in with
the Heber coppers and police dogs and all come out
with bruises and scratches.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
It's funny that kind of an.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Og kind of way. Anyway, Thanks for you Tom George.
It's a fascinating topic and I think it's tremendous that
the state police forces and the FEDS, I guess are
looking at officer safety because we've got a hugely high
level of assaults on lease, many more life threatening situations.
It's very dangerous out there and they need to be equipped,
but also they need to be trained very well. If
(41:13):
you've got stories for us, please get in touch. You
can send me an email Adam Shand writer at Gmail.
Maybe you've been tased, maybe you've been person who's operated
to taste. I love to hear from you. This has
been real crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host, Adam Shand,
thanks for listening.
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