September 7, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of Real Crime with Adam Shand, Adam speaks with Fleur, a survivor of childhood sexual abuse who has spent decades fighting to be heard. Abused by her stepfather and dismissed by police in the 1980s, Fleur is still seeking justice as her elderly abuser lives freely.
She shares her story of trauma, resilience, and determination, while Adam asks why authorities continue to delay action. A confronting but essential conversation about truth, survival, and the urgent need for justice.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appote production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This podcast contains discussion of child sexual assault and psychological trauma.
It's not recommended for younger listeners, and discretion is advised.
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
Adam Shand. There's an old saying that justice delayed is
justice denied. My guest today knows exactly how that feels,
(00:33):
and I'm hoping we can fix that. For three years,
from the age of eight to eleven, Fleur which is
not her real name, was sexually assaulted by her stepfather.
In those years, she suffered in silence as her mother's
husband exploited and defiled her. When she did speak up
in nineteen eighty five, police did next to nothing. The
(00:55):
perpetrator was interviewed but never charged. Fleur bravely told police
what her stepfather did to her in highly credible detail,
but in those days children are often not believed. Luckily,
times have changed remarkably. Fleur was placed in foster care
while her mother tried to save her marriage. Presumably as
(01:18):
I said, the perpetrator was never charged and for him
it all went away, but not for Flur. Forty years later,
Fleur is trying to have her assailant, now in his
mid eighties, brought to justice before he dies. I've located
this man living quietly in the suburbs of Melbourne, the Polisa,
where he is too but he still enjoys his freedom,
(01:40):
while Fleur continues to live the trauma of those days
that he caused. I'm proud to assist Fleur in her
quest for justice, and she's in the Real Crime Studio today.
Welcome Flur.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Thank you. It's quite an introduction. I've not heard it
put quite like that, so it's almost quite confronting.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Your whole story is confronting. And when you contacted me,
I knew this was story I had to pursue and
I should ask you why did you choose me?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Because, like I said, what I think i'd mentioned when
I first made contact that I'd seen some of your
work with TV shows and other podcasts, and so I thought, well,
you seem like someone who this has been your experience
and you would have knowledge specific to that very first
question that I asked you, which was in relation to,
(02:32):
you know, does publicity hinder or assist a criminal investigation?
As to whether that was going to be the right
path for me to take.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well, I thank you for your trust and confidence in
me to do this, and I'm going to do my
very best. And we should say there has been a
report to police, Queensland Police about this where the offenses
took place, and you've not felt that there's been the
right urgency in this case because the perpetrator is now,
as I said in the intro, in his mid eighties,
and you fear he may die without facing up to
(03:04):
what he's done.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Correct, because this reissuing of a complaint to the police
was I think even pre COVID, And so that's how
long I've been sitting waiting for something to happen. And
as much as there has been bits and pieces and
the police have you know, have done some background work,
you know, trying to track down people from that time
(03:28):
to see what they could offer as a witness, but
it's been at a snail's pace, and you know, I've
been simply told that you know, other cases that are
happening now have been taking priority and so I kind
of always then shoved back to the bottom of the queue.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So how do you feel about that this case when
you know the perpetrator is elderly, he could die any time,
and any chance of your resolving this, there's been the
big issue in your life. Any chance of resolving it
will be gone.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
It's frightening, you know, as much as I understand that
if there are cases happening now, of course you know
they need attention. However, and I've said this to the
police officer recently, is you can't keep pushing my case
to the bottom because there is the very real threat
of simply dying from old age, regardless of you know,
any other causes of death, and then you know, everything
(04:24):
completely falls apart, you know, the second that occurs. But
of course, you know, I don't know how much I
can push the issue, you know, without getting pushed back,
you know, or being told that there's staffing limitations, funding limitations,
all of this that. You know. I'm sure they do battle,
(04:44):
but there's got to be a point where mine does
take some priority.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, it's about you having your voice and telling your story,
and I guess impressing on the police that time is
of the essence. And I think I get contacted quite
a lot by people with these historical sexual assault cases,
and they're very difficult because usually there's no evidence. There's
one story from a long time ago. There's no contemporary notes,
(05:13):
there's no file, and it's extremely difficult for police picking
up the trail to do anything at the distance of time.
The difference with your case is you have quite a
bit of material. You've got a record of interview that
was done with the perpetrator back in nineteen eighty five.
You've got some handwritten notes I presume by a detective
(05:34):
back in the day transcribing your experience. You've also got
a magazine that was I guess part of the evidence
back in the day, a pornographic magazine. You've got what
happened to you as well. You were put in foster care.
So tell us how did that material come to light?
Because from what I understand your mother and I don't
(05:57):
want to criticize her, because this is a problem that
so many people are faced over the years in marriages
where this has taken place, and really this sort of abuse.
One of my friends down here next sexual assault squad
detective said, this is the last taboo where it's ancestor
or its stepfathers and so forth. Very difficult cases. But
(06:18):
your mother had a certain way of dealing with it
back in the day.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
What did she do seemingly lifted the carpet and swept
it under. It was not to be discussed. Essentially, that's
when the lies started, so, you know, lying about why
he wasn't you know, why they weren't together anymore. And
that was a lie that I also had to go
(06:41):
along with. I wasn't to talk to her about what happened,
wasn't allowed to talk to anyone else what happened. And
that's just sort of the way it became. And of course,
unfortunately of the age that I was and not really
able to I guess, articulate the situation well enough to
(07:03):
speak out or to you know, jump up and down
and complain. I guess it was just still reeling from
everything that happened, and you just sort of, I suppose,
accept that this is what you have to do, not
realizing that it's not actually you know, and of course
a lie ends up evolving into other areas of life.
(07:28):
I ended up having a lot of struggles with weight
because I ended up being a comfort eater. I struggled
through school, and of course, you know, if anyone ever
probably questioned my mother about these things, it was never
actually related to you know, the fact that I've gone
through a significant trauma, you know, that would have been
(07:49):
kept quiet, and who knows what she told people about
those scenarios, but it certainly wouldn't have been the truth.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And it certainly would have affected your relationship with your mother,
because when I read the material and I speak to
you over the last few weeks, as we've discussing this,
this term victim blaming comes to mind. That you were
made to feel that you were the one to blame,
that somehow the troubles going on were at your door,
(08:19):
rather than the perpetrator who had just abused your trust
in a horrific way.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, I certainly can look back and feel a sense
that she thought I'd made it up, which was part
of then her wanting to pretend it never happened, because
no doubt if she did say anything to him, or
even if she did read that police interview and saw
(08:46):
him denying everything, that she would have taken that as, oh,
he didn't do anything, and therefore I have made this up.
And you know, those thought presses don't happen in isolation.
They then permeate into all your other thought process and
so of course, if you think I've lied and made
the whole thing up. Well, then you're not dive in
wanting to make sure I'm okay, get help and support
(09:10):
for me, guidance, nothing because you think I've lied.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And so nothing was said for years about this and
you were made to feel like you'd made it up.
Were there times when you even doubted yourself that maybe
this didn't happen, Maybe maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I don't think I ever felt that I got it
wrong and it never happened. I think it was more
that weird and this is a weird perspective to have,
but almost it was wrong for me to have said something,
and that it almost wasn't wrong for him to have
been doing that. Like in as bizarre as that sounds,
(09:54):
it was sort of rather than me going, oh, maybe
it didn't actually happen, like no, I certainly do not
hype doubt that it happened, But it was that aspect
of maybe I was wrong to say something, or like
I said, maybe maybe what he was doing wasn't considered wrong.
You know, I was quite an isolated child, you know,
(10:17):
maybe thinking well, maybe this happens in other households. Because
I also, as much as I don't recall exactly what
it was that I said to the teacher at school.
Something about it tells me it wasn't a disclosure in
the way of, you know, being upset and all this
is happening. My gut tells me I must have just
(10:40):
said some offhand comment, but it was enough to prick
their ears up and go, oh, hang on a minute,
that doesn't sound right. And I think that played into
my having no concept that what was happening was wrong
and was not supposed to happen. So I think that's
sort of where it left me that I was I
(11:02):
was wrong to say something.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Let's take a step back, because you said something to
your mother first.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'm not sure. Unfortunately, this is part of where my
memory fails me. I have faint memory of saying something
to her, and I know that is backed up in
that sort of handwritten statement because it has then stated
there that my mother's response was that sort of she
(11:31):
will talk to him about it. But whether that came
before or after I mentioned at the school. Therefore, as
in was I prompted to say something to my mum?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I couldn't tell you because I was shocked by that
when I read that statement and it said you spoke
to your mother, and she said she'd go and talk
to the perpetrator. And I can't help but feel that
the proper response would have been, I'll go and talk
to the police. I'll get something done about this. I've
got to protect you. And I wonder whether and this
(12:03):
may be unraveled, because I think if police get active
in this case, they can find teachers and other classmates
of that era. It's not impossible, and they maybe able
to unravel it. But certainly it seems like you weren't
believed and you were now the problem. And then it's
something that you've also I think blocked out in your memory,
was you were put in foster care. I can only
(12:25):
imagine you're an eleven year old girl who's been abused
and suddenly you're no longer in your family home, the
perpetrator is in the family home, and you were in
foster care for some period of time.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yes, again, very very much snapshot memories, and really all
I remember is I'd gone through two different homes. I
have no idea why the change occurred. Could be nothing
to do with me, could be other reasons to do
with the that sual home setups that I always needed
(13:01):
to be moved. But I just have very snapshot memory
of the first and very snapshot is in a vague
memory of what the first family looked like and what
the second family looked like, but probably not enough that
I could, you know, ever point them out in you know,
if you gave me a line up of photos, I
probably couldn't point them out. And I certainly couldn't tell
(13:22):
anywhere like location. I couldn't tell you if they drove
me for ten minutes to get to the house or
for an hour to get to I absolutely have no
memory at all. I just remember being told to pack
some clothes and then I was out, and then yeah,
and even the length of time I was gone, like,
you know, i'd only know that by looking at the
(13:44):
Social services file that I eventually was sent to even
have a gauge of how long I'd been gone for.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
And there's one moment in the record which says you
absconded for a period of days, location unknown. Did you
run away or something?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, So that was a bit of a turning point,
which didn't I didn't set out to achieve this outcome,
but I unfortunately it could have made a difference. And
I don't think really actually did so when I was
about I think I was about fifteen. I'd been out
(14:25):
with a boyfriend at the time, and again still in
all the midst of you know, struggles of school and
home and life, and you know, you're putting a lot
of teenaged anks into all this as well, and it
was I just remember the time, it wasn't so much
sort of conscious you know, I'm going to run away
(14:48):
or I'm going to disappear. It was just more I
just don't feel like going home tonight, And that was
really no more thought than that. And next thing, I
don't know if it was the next day that the
boyfriend's parent and I couldn't actually tell now where I
was for that period of time, wouldn't have a cloe,
(15:09):
But I don't know if my mother had managed to
get hold of the boyfriend's parents, who got hold of
him to say the police are involved, you know, like
where am I kind of thing, and then sort of
you know, that wasn't my attention, So of course I've
made contact to say like, you know, well, you know,
what are you doing? But they were actually getting ready.
(15:30):
They'd gone around to my mother's house. They'd taken a
photo of me because they were getting ready to essentially
put me on the like six o'clock news that evening
in regards to being, you know, a missing teenager and anyway,
because at the time of that going to occur, and
you know, my mother then realizing that she's probably going
(15:54):
to have to do some fast explaining why my face
is on the news, she rang family, rang my father
because my father was not aware of any of this
that had happened to me. I don't know what she
told her side of the family, because none of them
have ever spoken to me. It's just been, I suppose,
(16:16):
this continuation of this wall of silence. So I don't
even know if she was honest with them about why
I may have just not come home. But she apparently
did tell my father, and it was a bit of
a heated conversation that went on. I couldn't tell you
abatim as to what was said. There was a lot
(16:38):
of it I wouldn't have heard because I wasn't right
there present. But one very distinctive thing that my father
said to me after that meeting was, of course, you know,
one of his first questions was why wasn't he told
at the time, and that the staggering response that my
mother gave to that question was she didn't think it
(16:59):
was important, and I don't. I still don't even know
how you how to process that answer. I didn't think
it was important.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I can't either. I can't process that either. And the
remarkable thing about all this is that despite the fact
your mother swept us under the carpet, didn't tell people,
left you in a place of isolation and silence. She
kept the documents, kept the record of interview of the perpetrator,
kept your foster record, kept the statement, even kept a
(17:35):
magazine that was one of the exhibits in the house.
How did you find that material?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So se fast forward to late twenty sixteen, and unfortunate
circumstances required that my two children and myself needed to
move into her place, and in amongst discovering that you know,
clearly her health has declined, and part of declining that
(18:07):
you know, I've noticed for a while. But you know,
there are some things that you don't really hit you
in the face until you're sort of living, you know,
with someone. But obviously I could already see when we
would just visit that, you know, the hoarding that was
taking place, and you know the amount of times I'd
go there and spend my visits, you know, trying to
throw things out just what they've been going on, and
(18:29):
trying to, you know, continue to clean out. And so
this was in the built in wardrobe in her bedroom,
and it was just chocol block with stuff that I'm
sure she didn't even know what was in there herself,
and just pulling things out. And yet it's really quite
shocked as to this paperwork that had come about, and
(18:51):
paperwork that I didn't actually know existed, let alone that
she had it. And it was this. The best way
I can describe it is a penny drop moment where
things just all into place, I suppose it's the best
way to describe it. But also a feeling of my god,
(19:11):
what an idiot I have been all this time because
I just didn't realize And you feel stupid saying this,
but I didn't realize she didn't believe me that that
was what the penny drop was. It was like, oh,
my God, realize it, because you know, even though I
(19:33):
couldn't articulate it at the time as a child, and
then sort of growing up, I knew something was something
didn't sit right, and something had changed in whatever our
relationship was before this occurred, it wasn't the same after.
But I couldn't, you know, articulate that at the time.
But I knew I would see other families and I,
you know, and people are different, so you know, you've
(19:55):
got to be careful making comparisons. But I would just
see other families and how they would interact with each other,
and I could just see something was different the relationship,
the interaction, whatever you want to call it between my
mother and I. There was something different about it. That
was a penny drop moment. And that's when it fell
(20:17):
into place that I realized, my god, that's what it was.
This I suppose almost arm's length distance between us that
I carried thinking I was the cause of the issue
between her and I that I couldn't articulate, like, but
but it was my fault. So then suddenly realizing no,
(20:38):
it wasn't my fault. And so with that then as
well realizing that, you know what, I never actually was
told what happened with the outcome. I think I assumed
that because I knew the police were involved, that they
would have done their investigation and there would have been
a court case. But I was never told, but of course,
(21:00):
you know, nothing was spoken about. So I thought, well,
you know, I want to find out myself what happened
with this case. And so I started off with them
an FOI to QPS, and they came back with sort
of essentially like a hands up as, so, oh, we
don't know, we don't have anything. And so I was like,
(21:24):
what do you mean you don't have anything? I have stuff?
How do you not have stuff? How do I have
a police record of interview and you don't. That makes
no sense. And to go back on to the earlier
point about my fears about you know, this case being delayed,
like I don't know, to bring out a conspiracy theory,
(21:46):
you know, I sometimes wonder whether they're avoiding the topic
because maybe they recognize the stuff up that happened back then,
and so they're trying to avoid recognizing that because obviously
the best chance of conviction was at the time it
will be much more difficult now. But anyway, so from that,
(22:06):
you know, I was advised, well, if the police didn't investigate,
then then I can lodge a complaint now and initiate
an investigation. So that's what I did. Then after I
think sort of a year or two. So this was
about twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen when all of this then started,
(22:29):
and the first officer we started with the case. About
a year or so later, I found out that they'd
closed it and I'm like, what, no one notified me.
It was only because I was trying to chase it
up as to what was happening, because I hadn't heard anything,
and they're like, oh, yeah, the case was closed, And
they came back with this samement saying, oh, clearly it
(22:50):
was investigated thoroughly the first time round. And I'm like, oh, really,
really can you can you show me the evidence that
it was clearly investigated the first time round, And so
I lodged a complaint and so it was reopened now
with the current office. So but we're still talking. We'll
probably you know, four or five years now that you
(23:11):
know this, since it's been reopened then the second time,
which I don't know how long these things normally take,
but that just seems a rather long period of time.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
It is, and I think it's your frustration is absolutely justified.
And look at the material. It is comprehensive. You know
exactly what the allegations are when they took place, for
how long your response what happened? Of course, eventually the
perpetrator and your mother did break up, but she kept
his name until the early two thousands, I believe, so
she still continued to cling to the remnants of that relationship.
(23:45):
But what's lacking in the evidence that I've seen is
your mother's statement. I wonder did she make a statement,
because that would have been key. Whatever conversations that she'd
had with the perpetrator would have been used in evidence
to corroborate what you were saying. And I wonder whether
you were just left high and dry in a situation
where it was just he said she said, he was
(24:08):
able to sit there and deny it all and there
was nothing coming up behind to corroborate that.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Exactly. And that's the issue with the fact that whatever
file they had is gone. So I couldn't tell you
whether the record of interview that they did with the
perpetrator is that the only interview they did, or did
they speak to other people? If they did, where are
those records of interview. There's not even a log of
you know expect that they normally have of you know,
(24:37):
dates and times that you know they and who they've
spoken to and when they spoke to them, or who
they're you know, wanting to speak to, like who were
persons of interest if that was necessary for the case,
or But there's just like I said, they had, the
only document they had was this handwritten statement, and they
(24:58):
turned around to me and said, we don't know what
this is. We don't like you know, we don't know
where this has come from. But that's all they had.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It's unsigned, it doesn't give away much of its providence,
but the allegations are very clear, and it seems to
be what is put to the perpetrator in his interview.
It's drawn from this document. Seems very clear, and I
don't want to go into the detail because it is harrowing,
and I really appreciate you talking about this at all.
But what we see is over a period of three years,
(25:28):
a grooming sexual assault that stopped short of actual penetration
fucking use that word, but something that was clearly very
damaging to you and to not be believed. But I
think also to find the evidence in the cupboard, i'd
suggest going back to the cupboard again and see if
there's any more in there. You know that may be
(25:49):
useful to the police. Have you done that.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Or actually no longer in that house, But there's potential
that other documents exist because of the sheer hoarding that
my mother did. That I'm still drowning in, you know
a lot of stuff. You know, I just ran out
of time to sort through things. Things just had to
be boxed up and whatnot and just moved. And so
there's still boxes and crates and filing cabinets full of paperwork.
(26:17):
And one day I might be able to sit down
and go through it and you know, magically come across
something else. But just to point out there it there
was penetration. He did use his fingers, and he had
(26:38):
made a start with his penis. He just hadn't fully
inserted it, but he had inserted essentially, like I suppose
you could say, the head of the penis, and that's
the thing that's part of the groomy. I think he
was slowly working up to where he would have the
day would have come where he would be fully inserting it.
(27:01):
But obviously, you know, having said something, you know, interjected
any further acts from occurring. But absolutely I have no
doubt that if if I hadn't happened to have said
something that these acts would have just continued and potentially
continued for.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Years, which they did for three long years.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Well they already had which yeah, which is why this
wasn't you know, some random you know, active you know,
chrome of opportunity as they say that, you know, it
was the stranger who had to catch me walking down
the street, grab pulled me into the bushes, did what
they did, and then took off and never seen again.
(27:42):
And I'm not making light of those I'm just saying
just bringing up the difference between someone who's got unfettered
access to in the four walls of the home with
potentially a fairly ignorant parent because as mentioned, you know,
was she completely in the dark about these acts occurring?
(28:05):
Did she know and did she turn a blind eye?
Or at the very least should she have known, should
she have been suspicious and still decided to Oh, we
don't talk about those sort of things, you know, that
sort of era and mindset that that carried through as
to you know, why she made up other reasons as
(28:28):
to why the marriage broke down because you know, she
couldn't possibly face telling people the.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Truth for fear of being judged, I guess.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I I don't know, and on course, you know, I'm
never going to get an answer from her anymore. But
that lie is so ingrained in her that even a
few years ago, during an assessment with a medical specialist
you know who just you know, was asking about background,
social history, you know, family background, and asked about you know,
(29:05):
general questions. You know, how many times you've been married,
you know, invariably you know, why did the marriages ended?
And listening to her give reason as to why the
second marriage ended, and I just was just flabbercusted that this.
I think the lie is so ingrained that she completely
believes it.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I should say that your mother is still alive, but
she's suffering dementia, so she's beyond any chance to get
definitive assistance again. But as I read the record of interview,
the perpetrator is able, over an hour or so interview
to deny everything except for one thing. He does admit
that he showed you a pornographic magazine and as if
(29:50):
that you were interested in it.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, that's the excuse he gives when they ask him
why he showed it to me, and his answer was
because she wanted to see it, which just astounds me
that it just seemed to be accepted as an answer
by the police as well, and not only that, And
this is what leads me to you know, I have
a few reasons as to why I believe I could
(30:13):
not be his first and only victim, but one of
them is because I, you know, also since tried to
lodge a complaint in regards to their inaction on that admission.
And of course it's come back to me telling me
that that wasn't an offense at that time, which you know,
(30:34):
is frustrating, but of course you know, of course, what
can you do about it? But it still says to
me that he seemed to know that. Otherwise, why would
he admit to that unless he knew that they couldn't
do anything about that, And that in itself should be
highly suspicious that this is someone who knows the system.
(30:58):
And even if he hasn't had that accusation landed to
him before. I mean, I've listened and you know, to
enough documentaries on this topic to know that there's a
society of them. They know who each other is, they
interact with each other and pass tips on. And I
(31:19):
think that you know, he's found out from others that
they can't do you for that, because how else would
you know, Why would you admit to that, why would
you say no to everything except that unless you knew
they couldn't do anything about that?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Because you covered this in that handwritten statement. What did
you say was the purpose of showing you that magazine?
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So my memory, apart from whatever I've said in there,
just separate to that, my own memories of those magazines,
was his showing me. And I think, you know, obviously
I didn't know these magazines existed, and so it would
have started by him showing me and wanting me to
look through it and start to pick out what I'd
(32:04):
like to try. Essentially as disgusting.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
As that is as an eleven year old, this is
a forty three year old man.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
This was I was younger, because this is happening over
that three year period. So this wasn't just right at
the end, So I could have been It could have
started when I was eight and praying on the fact
that I have no idea that any of this is
inappropriate or wrong, and just going on thinking, obviously thinking
it's some sort of game or like whatever. He had
(32:35):
managed to convince me of had worked, and yes, so
wanting me to pick out things to try. And there
probably was a time where I had said to you know,
I'd asked him, you know, to get the book to
look through it, because is what this is what the
grooming was, this is what he had been, you know,
(32:56):
getting me to do. And so I was just you know,
being you know, the good child and you know, thinking
I'm doing what what to expect it of me? Which,
you know, it's just horrifying to think that that's that's
where you were.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
You've been brainwashed by this individual. And when in the
interview he was asked, okay, you say this didn't happen.
Why do you think Fleur is saying this, he said, well,
I think it's because I make her do the right thing,
falling back on his authority as a father figure. It's monstrous.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, it's hard to comment on actually, because we talked
about this off air.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
The effect that it's had on you and your your childhood,
these important formative years where you are you're into puberty
or forming your views about sexuality, and you have this
monster who's exploiting you at these critical moments. What effect,
(34:02):
how do you think it has had on you and
the way you've formed if you're the world and your sexuality.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Oh look, it's probably even affected me more than what
I realized. It's affected me, but it sets you on
this trajectory, and the one for me just seemed to
be trauma after trauma. There were in comparison, albeit more minor,
but there were other occasions of an assault. You know,
(34:33):
I was assaulted in a cinema and I froze at
the time when it happened, and I mentioned it. I
remember mentioning it to my friend who had gone to
the cinema with After the cinema, and I also remember,
and I don't mean this to be derogatory to my friend,
but I remember it was sort of turned into a
(34:54):
bit of a joke and it was being laughed about,
and I probably participated in the joke, but inside, you know,
you feel this sort of discomforts like and of course
looking back and go why was this being joked about.
There was a family friend of my father's who you know,
(35:16):
he was grooming me towards something and again he so
that started off. He was someone of European descent, and
you know how sometimes they're very I don't know how
to describe it. They're very family orientated, that big families,
you know, they're all kind of you know, giving each other.
(35:38):
You know, you get the double kiss, you know, on
your cheeks, you get the big hugs. And so when
it starts off like that, you put it down to
that's just their culture, that's just the way they are.
But of course it started to slowly mold a bit
more than that, and initially I would just right off, guy, No,
I'm just you know, being silly. It's not that at all,
(35:59):
until there was one incident where it was much more
obvious that, no, this is not just their cultureal you know,
giving everyone hugs. This was this is actually, you know,
more more.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Of an assault, raping you and so forth.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Essentially, yes, and again I kind of froze, and I
reported it to my father, and my father, I guess,
to his credit to a degree, he believed me that
I was probably i know, seventeen eighteen maybe at the
time that this was occurring, and he confronted this friend,
(36:40):
and I think that ended the friendship. Like my father was,
you know, I'm done with you, and I think they'd
been friends for a very long time. But of course
I look back now it's like there was still no
police report made.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Well, that's right again. Again, you say something and it
has an impact on somebody else that you're now responsible for,
and there's nobody in your corner. There's nobody seeking justice
for you. You and I can see why now you've
just said enough of this, enough of this. You found
this material in the cupboard, that you've seen your mother's
(37:14):
lack of action. You know this individual is living in
Melbourne and you think, stuff it, there's going to be
some action. Now. How do you feel about how it's
gone for these years? It's still not happening, it's still
not making progress, and each day brings the likelihood that
this perpetrator will get away with it because you'll be
(37:35):
in the cemetery.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, it's constantly in the back of your mind that
one of these days, the next phone call from the
police will be to tell me that the investigations closed
because the perpetrator has died. And it's a huge concern.
Hence why sort of you know, I'm trying to find
you know, how can I, shall we say, help encourage
(37:58):
the police to give my case priority because it's a
unique priority. You know, I'm sure there are other older
perpetrators out there of current cases, and maybe the threat
for them dying is also real, But I can't say
that would be all of them, that the threat of
dying from old age is the reason for the priority
(38:19):
for other cases. I think it's just that, oh, there,
they're much more recent, and that's why you know, they're
striking while the iron's hot. So they say, well, it's
I think it's.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
A getting a little bit cold again for mine. But
you know what, I find encouraging. That's probably the wrong word.
But despite this trauma, despite all you've been through, you've
had a functional life, You've had your own children, you
work as a theater, nurse in the hospital, you're in
a compassionate, caring profession. You've got on with life despite
(38:50):
these things. And I think for you not to get justice,
you've never complained, you've never given up, but to not
get justice at this stage is a borrent to me.
And I'm sure there are people listening out there right
now who were also victims of historical sexual assault. Now,
don't just sit there, don't just sit there, send us
(39:12):
an email, get in touch with crime stoppers. What do
you hope will happen. Now, I'm good, by the way,
I'm going to send this this podcast to Queensland Police.
I'm going to send it to Victoria Police, and we're
going to demand some answers on this what's actually happening.
If I can find this individual, why can't they, Why
can't they knock on his door and ask him after
(39:33):
all these years, what happened? And also whether he can
go back to Queensland and face up to these allegations,
because you're right, these pedophiles, they're rarely a one off thing.
There's other instances, and we've got dozens and dozens of
historical sexual assault cases involving women just like you, and
(39:55):
he may well be right for one or two of
those or more So. If you don't ask the question,
you don't get the answer. And right now he's likely
to escape out the chimney of the crematorium. And that's
just wrong, it's monstrous.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yes, And so that's one of my reasons why I
don't believe I would be his first, because when you
look back at the age he would have been when
he came across me, he'd already was in his forties.
I can't, I just can't believe that he suddenly, you know,
(40:32):
developed this behavior in his forties. I don't believe that.
I'm much more likely to believe that there are other
victims who may have come forward and said something and
were also not believed, or I'm sure you've known that
this happened. A lot of cases, people don't say anything
at all. They just bottle it up and do hold
(40:54):
it with them for forty fifty, sixty, whatever year is,
until in their old age they finally will say something,
or they wait till the perpetrators died or relevant party
have died before they say something. I will just go
back to your mention about my functional life. I disagree
(41:14):
that it's been functional. It may in somewhat seem like
that on the outside, but it's been It's been a struggle.
You know. Yes, some are registered nurse, so I have
a degree from UNI. But that was a tough slog.
That was hard because of my struggles, because of my
lack of self esteem of believing that I could do it,
(41:36):
that I was worthy of it, which goes right back
to the same struggles I had in schooling, not being supported,
having this trauma that no one was allowed to know
about alone you know, helped me through the relationship that
produced my two children, was a domestic violence relationship for
many years. And you and again I seem to be
(41:57):
ahead of this curve when it comes to you know, catchphrases.
And so I was a victim of grooming by my
perpetrator before they knew what grooming was. All the same
with a lot that happened in this domestic violence relationship,
which was a lot of the you know, coercive control. Well,
people didn't know what that was then, I mean, domestic
violence itself was barely recognized. And even then, you know,
(42:22):
you really, you know, unless you turned up essentially on
death's door having been beaten to a pulp, you weren't believed.
And even then you probably you might have been sort
of well, what did you do that made him angry?
Like there was and even today, like we've moved a
long way with domestic violence, but we're still a long
way short when it comes to, you know, the prevention
(42:46):
and the management, et cetera. And so every step just
seems to have been a struggle. I I'm single. I've
been single for a long time because you know, one
probably the most important factor to have in a relationship
is trust and I just don't know I can never
could ever trust anyone again, because you know, to be
(43:09):
in a relationship, to have that sort of closeness, that
level of you know, intimacy and so forth, that's a
lot of trust that you in part to somebody else,
and I don't know that I can do that. So
so yes, I disagree with being functional. I think if anything,
I'm probably just that, you know, it's sort of not
(43:30):
really living. It's not you know, there's aspects of happiness,
but I wouldn't say overall it's a happy life. You know.
I'm now, you know, in the position of caring, ironically
caring for my mother with her dementia, despite you know,
essentially the lack of care that was offered to me
(43:50):
in my time of need. And there's you know, other things,
other things in there as well in the mix, just
because you know, life can be crap sometimes. But out
of this, I just obviously I'd like, you know, to believe,
to get a move on. But I would also really
implore that if there was anyone for their own circumstances,
(44:14):
to come forward, because you know, particularly if it turns
out that there's anyone who happened to have the same
perpetrator as me. I would hope that that would send
the investigation forward in leaps and bounds, just by the
sheer fact that there's someone else who can attest to
being a victim of his, because there must be out there.
(44:36):
I just can't believe that there wouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I think you're probably right. He was working as an
interstate truck driver in this period, so he was mobile,
he was moving around the country, so it could well be.
I realized talking to you, how I lack the words
to really understand what you've been through and to help
you communicate. And you've done an amazing job in doing that.
And also I can sense the deep well of trauma
(45:01):
there is not just for you, but a whole generation
of young girls and women who suffered these indignities, these
crimes back in the eighties. Because the more I learn
about this, I've done in several cases now and it's
mister cruel in Victoria, cases like that where young girls
were abducted and sexually assaulted, and it was almost treated
(45:21):
as a social welfare issue back then. And that's something
that a child will eventually get over and integrate into
their lives, and your story just brings it home that
that's not the case at all. And I apologize for
even saying the word functional. I realized it's the wrong word.
You've done an amazing job. You said to me last night,
you feel like a broken cup, just in pieces, and
(45:43):
I can't imagine what that's like. I just admire your
strength for putting yourself a through a police investigation when
you've got to dragoon them and push them at every step,
and also do this interview because I'm sure there are
women listening right now, and you know who you are,
you know what you've been through, and you deserve justice too.
(46:07):
So if anything comes out of this, and I certainly
hope it does, and I'm going to keep pushing this.
As I said, I'm going to send the podcast to
Victoria Police and Queen's an police and say is this
good enough? It's one thing back in the day failing.
We understand that there was a lot of reasons why
it didn't go forward then, but today there's just no reason.
So flu, I really appreciate you sharing your story with
(46:29):
us today. And what message would you give to anybody
else who's in your position that.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I understand it's a difficult thing to talk about. You
don't want to be that person, but you know, having
had it buried away for so long has certainly not
done me any favors, and in trying to heal, it
(46:57):
needs to be brought to the surface, as painful as
it probably is. But it's just going to eat continue
to eat away at you if it's not if it's
not dealt with, really, if it's not spoken about with somebody,
at least talk to somebody, you know. If you don't
have a trusted family, a member or friend, you know,
(47:19):
you speak to a counselor even if you don't want
to go to the police. But this has clearly been
eating at me for all this time, and you know,
I have deliver with the frustration that I didn't speak
out sooner because I didn't, you know, essentially know who
to speak out sooner. And like I said, going back
to that penny drop moment, that I feel completely stupid
(47:42):
that expecting that people did do the right thing around
me at the time, and they didn't, And so I
don't think I'll get closure. It is an odd term.
I think sometimes it gets used a lot, but I'm
hoping to get maybe one day to some sort of peace.
(48:02):
Whether it's so it's not continuing to destroy me any
more than what it already has. I wouldn't want that
to be happening to other people as well, more than
it already has been.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
And is I agree we use this word closure all
the time. It's not like closing a book or closing
a door. But I think it is about people finding
their voice. And I think your voice is strong, and
it's truthful, and you're seeking justice and I think that's
and the community should support that, and the police should
support that. So Flu, I really want to thank you
(48:35):
again for sharing it with me and for choosing me.
Most importantly, you've taught me a lot through this process,
talking to you over the weeks, and the little bit
of work I've put into it to locate the perpetrator.
I hope the police are doing the same thing. They
go back to that door, knock on his door, so
one day he has to face it, and you might
get a moment where he admits his culpability. Whether he
(48:58):
goes to jail or something, I don't know, but that's
the really least we can expect that our police will
take up the casules on you will be half and
other people as well. So if you're out there, I
urge you have counseling, work out what you can do,
and if you can bring a case, call crime Stoppers
one one hundred, triple three, triple zero. FLU, thank you
so much for sharing the story today. Thank you, and
(49:23):
that's Flu. It's an amazing story for mine and you
can see the isolation she suffered from the very beginning
where she was made to feel like she was the
one causing the problem. And you've heard her voice, insistent,
almost polite, saying, please give me justice, and there's more
of you out there. It's not too late. Please get
(49:45):
in touch with police and if polease won't help you,
send me an email. Adam Shanner, writer at gmail dot com.
This has been a real crime with Adam shanned Thank
you for listening.
Appote production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This podcast contains discussion of child sexual assault and psychological trauma.
It's not recommended for younger listeners, and discretion is advised.
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
Adam Shand. There's an old saying that justice delayed is
justice denied. My guest today knows exactly how that feels,
(00:33):
and I'm hoping we can fix that. For three years,
from the age of eight to eleven, Fleur which is
not her real name, was sexually assaulted by her stepfather.
In those years, she suffered in silence as her mother's
husband exploited and defiled her. When she did speak up
in nineteen eighty five, police did next to nothing. The
(00:55):
perpetrator was interviewed but never charged. Fleur bravely told police
what her stepfather did to her in highly credible detail,
but in those days children are often not believed. Luckily,
times have changed remarkably. Fleur was placed in foster care
while her mother tried to save her marriage. Presumably as
(01:18):
I said, the perpetrator was never charged and for him
it all went away, but not for Flur. Forty years later,
Fleur is trying to have her assailant, now in his
mid eighties, brought to justice before he dies. I've located
this man living quietly in the suburbs of Melbourne, the Polisa,
where he is too but he still enjoys his freedom,
(01:40):
while Fleur continues to live the trauma of those days
that he caused. I'm proud to assist Fleur in her
quest for justice, and she's in the Real Crime Studio today.
Welcome Flur.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Thank you. It's quite an introduction. I've not heard it
put quite like that, so it's almost quite confronting.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Your whole story is confronting. And when you contacted me,
I knew this was story I had to pursue and
I should ask you why did you choose me?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Because, like I said, what I think i'd mentioned when
I first made contact that I'd seen some of your
work with TV shows and other podcasts, and so I thought, well,
you seem like someone who this has been your experience
and you would have knowledge specific to that very first
question that I asked you, which was in relation to,
(02:32):
you know, does publicity hinder or assist a criminal investigation?
As to whether that was going to be the right
path for me to take.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well, I thank you for your trust and confidence in
me to do this, and I'm going to do my
very best. And we should say there has been a
report to police, Queensland Police about this where the offenses
took place, and you've not felt that there's been the
right urgency in this case because the perpetrator is now,
as I said in the intro, in his mid eighties,
and you fear he may die without facing up to
(03:04):
what he's done.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Correct, because this reissuing of a complaint to the police
was I think even pre COVID, And so that's how
long I've been sitting waiting for something to happen. And
as much as there has been bits and pieces and
the police have you know, have done some background work,
you know, trying to track down people from that time
(03:28):
to see what they could offer as a witness, but
it's been at a snail's pace, and you know, I've
been simply told that you know, other cases that are
happening now have been taking priority and so I kind
of always then shoved back to the bottom of the queue.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So how do you feel about that this case when
you know the perpetrator is elderly, he could die any time,
and any chance of your resolving this, there's been the
big issue in your life. Any chance of resolving it
will be gone.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
It's frightening, you know, as much as I understand that
if there are cases happening now, of course you know
they need attention. However, and I've said this to the
police officer recently, is you can't keep pushing my case
to the bottom because there is the very real threat
of simply dying from old age, regardless of you know,
any other causes of death, and then you know, everything
(04:24):
completely falls apart, you know, the second that occurs. But
of course, you know, I don't know how much I
can push the issue, you know, without getting pushed back,
you know, or being told that there's staffing limitations, funding limitations,
all of this that. You know. I'm sure they do battle,
(04:44):
but there's got to be a point where mine does
take some priority.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, it's about you having your voice and telling your story,
and I guess impressing on the police that time is
of the essence. And I think I get contacted quite
a lot by people with these historical sexual assault cases,
and they're very difficult because usually there's no evidence. There's
one story from a long time ago. There's no contemporary notes,
(05:13):
there's no file, and it's extremely difficult for police picking
up the trail to do anything at the distance of time.
The difference with your case is you have quite a
bit of material. You've got a record of interview that
was done with the perpetrator back in nineteen eighty five.
You've got some handwritten notes I presume by a detective
(05:34):
back in the day transcribing your experience. You've also got
a magazine that was I guess part of the evidence
back in the day, a pornographic magazine. You've got what
happened to you as well. You were put in foster care.
So tell us how did that material come to light?
Because from what I understand your mother and I don't
(05:57):
want to criticize her, because this is a problem that
so many people are faced over the years in marriages
where this has taken place, and really this sort of abuse.
One of my friends down here next sexual assault squad
detective said, this is the last taboo where it's ancestor
or its stepfathers and so forth. Very difficult cases. But
(06:18):
your mother had a certain way of dealing with it
back in the day.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
What did she do seemingly lifted the carpet and swept
it under. It was not to be discussed. Essentially, that's
when the lies started, so, you know, lying about why
he wasn't you know, why they weren't together anymore. And
that was a lie that I also had to go
(06:41):
along with. I wasn't to talk to her about what happened,
wasn't allowed to talk to anyone else what happened. And
that's just sort of the way it became. And of course,
unfortunately of the age that I was and not really
able to I guess, articulate the situation well enough to
(07:03):
speak out or to you know, jump up and down
and complain. I guess it was just still reeling from
everything that happened, and you just sort of, I suppose,
accept that this is what you have to do, not
realizing that it's not actually you know, and of course
a lie ends up evolving into other areas of life.
(07:28):
I ended up having a lot of struggles with weight
because I ended up being a comfort eater. I struggled
through school, and of course, you know, if anyone ever
probably questioned my mother about these things, it was never
actually related to you know, the fact that I've gone
through a significant trauma, you know, that would have been
(07:49):
kept quiet, and who knows what she told people about
those scenarios, but it certainly wouldn't have been the truth.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And it certainly would have affected your relationship with your mother,
because when I read the material and I speak to
you over the last few weeks, as we've discussing this,
this term victim blaming comes to mind. That you were
made to feel that you were the one to blame,
that somehow the troubles going on were at your door,
(08:19):
rather than the perpetrator who had just abused your trust
in a horrific way.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, I certainly can look back and feel a sense
that she thought I'd made it up, which was part
of then her wanting to pretend it never happened, because
no doubt if she did say anything to him, or
even if she did read that police interview and saw
(08:46):
him denying everything, that she would have taken that as, oh,
he didn't do anything, and therefore I have made this up.
And you know, those thought presses don't happen in isolation.
They then permeate into all your other thought process and
so of course, if you think I've lied and made
the whole thing up. Well, then you're not dive in
wanting to make sure I'm okay, get help and support
(09:10):
for me, guidance, nothing because you think I've lied.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And so nothing was said for years about this and
you were made to feel like you'd made it up.
Were there times when you even doubted yourself that maybe
this didn't happen, Maybe maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I don't think I ever felt that I got it
wrong and it never happened. I think it was more
that weird and this is a weird perspective to have,
but almost it was wrong for me to have said something,
and that it almost wasn't wrong for him to have
been doing that. Like in as bizarre as that sounds,
(09:54):
it was sort of rather than me going, oh, maybe
it didn't actually happen, like no, I certainly do not
hype doubt that it happened, But it was that aspect
of maybe I was wrong to say something, or like
I said, maybe maybe what he was doing wasn't considered wrong.
You know, I was quite an isolated child, you know,
(10:17):
maybe thinking well, maybe this happens in other households. Because
I also, as much as I don't recall exactly what
it was that I said to the teacher at school.
Something about it tells me it wasn't a disclosure in
the way of, you know, being upset and all this
is happening. My gut tells me I must have just
(10:40):
said some offhand comment, but it was enough to prick
their ears up and go, oh, hang on a minute,
that doesn't sound right. And I think that played into
my having no concept that what was happening was wrong
and was not supposed to happen. So I think that's
sort of where it left me that I was I
(11:02):
was wrong to say something.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Let's take a step back, because you said something to
your mother first.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'm not sure. Unfortunately, this is part of where my
memory fails me. I have faint memory of saying something
to her, and I know that is backed up in
that sort of handwritten statement because it has then stated
there that my mother's response was that sort of she
(11:31):
will talk to him about it. But whether that came
before or after I mentioned at the school. Therefore, as
in was I prompted to say something to my mum?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I couldn't tell you because I was shocked by that
when I read that statement and it said you spoke
to your mother, and she said she'd go and talk
to the perpetrator. And I can't help but feel that
the proper response would have been, I'll go and talk
to the police. I'll get something done about this. I've
got to protect you. And I wonder whether and this
(12:03):
may be unraveled, because I think if police get active
in this case, they can find teachers and other classmates
of that era. It's not impossible, and they maybe able
to unravel it. But certainly it seems like you weren't
believed and you were now the problem. And then it's
something that you've also I think blocked out in your memory,
was you were put in foster care. I can only
(12:25):
imagine you're an eleven year old girl who's been abused
and suddenly you're no longer in your family home, the
perpetrator is in the family home, and you were in
foster care for some period of time.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yes, again, very very much snapshot memories, and really all
I remember is I'd gone through two different homes. I
have no idea why the change occurred. Could be nothing
to do with me, could be other reasons to do
with the that sual home setups that I always needed
(13:01):
to be moved. But I just have very snapshot memory
of the first and very snapshot is in a vague
memory of what the first family looked like and what
the second family looked like, but probably not enough that
I could, you know, ever point them out in you know,
if you gave me a line up of photos, I
probably couldn't point them out. And I certainly couldn't tell
(13:22):
anywhere like location. I couldn't tell you if they drove
me for ten minutes to get to the house or
for an hour to get to I absolutely have no
memory at all. I just remember being told to pack
some clothes and then I was out, and then yeah,
and even the length of time I was gone, like,
you know, i'd only know that by looking at the
(13:44):
Social services file that I eventually was sent to even
have a gauge of how long I'd been gone for.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
And there's one moment in the record which says you
absconded for a period of days, location unknown. Did you
run away or something?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, So that was a bit of a turning point,
which didn't I didn't set out to achieve this outcome,
but I unfortunately it could have made a difference. And
I don't think really actually did so when I was
about I think I was about fifteen. I'd been out
(14:25):
with a boyfriend at the time, and again still in
all the midst of you know, struggles of school and
home and life, and you know, you're putting a lot
of teenaged anks into all this as well, and it
was I just remember the time, it wasn't so much
sort of conscious you know, I'm going to run away
(14:48):
or I'm going to disappear. It was just more I
just don't feel like going home tonight, And that was
really no more thought than that. And next thing, I
don't know if it was the next day that the
boyfriend's parent and I couldn't actually tell now where I
was for that period of time, wouldn't have a cloe,
(15:09):
But I don't know if my mother had managed to
get hold of the boyfriend's parents, who got hold of
him to say the police are involved, you know, like
where am I kind of thing, and then sort of
you know, that wasn't my attention, So of course I've
made contact to say like, you know, well, you know,
what are you doing? But they were actually getting ready.
(15:30):
They'd gone around to my mother's house. They'd taken a
photo of me because they were getting ready to essentially
put me on the like six o'clock news that evening
in regards to being, you know, a missing teenager and anyway,
because at the time of that going to occur, and
you know, my mother then realizing that she's probably going
(15:54):
to have to do some fast explaining why my face
is on the news, she rang family, rang my father
because my father was not aware of any of this
that had happened to me. I don't know what she
told her side of the family, because none of them
have ever spoken to me. It's just been, I suppose,
(16:16):
this continuation of this wall of silence. So I don't
even know if she was honest with them about why
I may have just not come home. But she apparently
did tell my father, and it was a bit of
a heated conversation that went on. I couldn't tell you
abatim as to what was said. There was a lot
(16:38):
of it I wouldn't have heard because I wasn't right
there present. But one very distinctive thing that my father
said to me after that meeting was, of course, you know,
one of his first questions was why wasn't he told
at the time, and that the staggering response that my
mother gave to that question was she didn't think it
(16:59):
was important, and I don't. I still don't even know
how you how to process that answer. I didn't think
it was important.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I can't either. I can't process that either. And the
remarkable thing about all this is that despite the fact
your mother swept us under the carpet, didn't tell people,
left you in a place of isolation and silence. She
kept the documents, kept the record of interview of the perpetrator,
kept your foster record, kept the statement, even kept a
(17:35):
magazine that was one of the exhibits in the house.
How did you find that material?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So se fast forward to late twenty sixteen, and unfortunate
circumstances required that my two children and myself needed to
move into her place, and in amongst discovering that you know,
clearly her health has declined, and part of declining that
(18:07):
you know, I've noticed for a while. But you know,
there are some things that you don't really hit you
in the face until you're sort of living, you know,
with someone. But obviously I could already see when we
would just visit that, you know, the hoarding that was
taking place, and you know the amount of times I'd
go there and spend my visits, you know, trying to
throw things out just what they've been going on, and
(18:29):
trying to, you know, continue to clean out. And so
this was in the built in wardrobe in her bedroom,
and it was just chocol block with stuff that I'm
sure she didn't even know what was in there herself,
and just pulling things out. And yet it's really quite
shocked as to this paperwork that had come about, and
(18:51):
paperwork that I didn't actually know existed, let alone that
she had it. And it was this. The best way
I can describe it is a penny drop moment where
things just all into place, I suppose it's the best
way to describe it. But also a feeling of my god,
(19:11):
what an idiot I have been all this time because
I just didn't realize And you feel stupid saying this,
but I didn't realize she didn't believe me that that
was what the penny drop was. It was like, oh,
my God, realize it, because you know, even though I
(19:33):
couldn't articulate it at the time as a child, and
then sort of growing up, I knew something was something
didn't sit right, and something had changed in whatever our
relationship was before this occurred, it wasn't the same after.
But I couldn't, you know, articulate that at the time.
But I knew I would see other families and I,
you know, and people are different, so you know, you've
(19:55):
got to be careful making comparisons. But I would just
see other families and how they would interact with each other,
and I could just see something was different the relationship,
the interaction, whatever you want to call it between my
mother and I. There was something different about it. That
was a penny drop moment. And that's when it fell
(20:17):
into place that I realized, my god, that's what it was.
This I suppose almost arm's length distance between us that
I carried thinking I was the cause of the issue
between her and I that I couldn't articulate, like, but
but it was my fault. So then suddenly realizing no,
(20:38):
it wasn't my fault. And so with that then as
well realizing that, you know what, I never actually was
told what happened with the outcome. I think I assumed
that because I knew the police were involved, that they
would have done their investigation and there would have been
a court case. But I was never told, but of course,
(21:00):
you know, nothing was spoken about. So I thought, well,
you know, I want to find out myself what happened
with this case. And so I started off with them
an FOI to QPS, and they came back with sort
of essentially like a hands up as, so, oh, we
don't know, we don't have anything. And so I was like,
(21:24):
what do you mean you don't have anything? I have stuff?
How do you not have stuff? How do I have
a police record of interview and you don't. That makes
no sense. And to go back on to the earlier
point about my fears about you know, this case being delayed,
like I don't know, to bring out a conspiracy theory,
(21:46):
you know, I sometimes wonder whether they're avoiding the topic
because maybe they recognize the stuff up that happened back then,
and so they're trying to avoid recognizing that because obviously
the best chance of conviction was at the time it
will be much more difficult now. But anyway, so from that,
(22:06):
you know, I was advised, well, if the police didn't investigate,
then then I can lodge a complaint now and initiate
an investigation. So that's what I did. Then after I
think sort of a year or two. So this was
about twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen when all of this then started,
(22:29):
and the first officer we started with the case. About
a year or so later, I found out that they'd
closed it and I'm like, what, no one notified me.
It was only because I was trying to chase it
up as to what was happening, because I hadn't heard anything,
and they're like, oh, yeah, the case was closed, And
they came back with this samement saying, oh, clearly it
(22:50):
was investigated thoroughly the first time round. And I'm like, oh, really,
really can you can you show me the evidence that
it was clearly investigated the first time round, And so
I lodged a complaint and so it was reopened now
with the current office. So but we're still talking. We'll
probably you know, four or five years now that you
(23:11):
know this, since it's been reopened then the second time,
which I don't know how long these things normally take,
but that just seems a rather long period of time.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
It is, and I think it's your frustration is absolutely justified.
And look at the material. It is comprehensive. You know
exactly what the allegations are when they took place, for
how long your response what happened? Of course, eventually the
perpetrator and your mother did break up, but she kept
his name until the early two thousands, I believe, so
she still continued to cling to the remnants of that relationship.
(23:45):
But what's lacking in the evidence that I've seen is
your mother's statement. I wonder did she make a statement,
because that would have been key. Whatever conversations that she'd
had with the perpetrator would have been used in evidence
to corroborate what you were saying. And I wonder whether
you were just left high and dry in a situation
where it was just he said she said, he was
(24:08):
able to sit there and deny it all and there
was nothing coming up behind to corroborate that.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Exactly. And that's the issue with the fact that whatever
file they had is gone. So I couldn't tell you
whether the record of interview that they did with the
perpetrator is that the only interview they did, or did
they speak to other people? If they did, where are
those records of interview. There's not even a log of
you know expect that they normally have of you know,
(24:37):
dates and times that you know they and who they've
spoken to and when they spoke to them, or who
they're you know, wanting to speak to, like who were
persons of interest if that was necessary for the case,
or But there's just like I said, they had, the
only document they had was this handwritten statement, and they
(24:58):
turned around to me and said, we don't know what
this is. We don't like you know, we don't know
where this has come from. But that's all they had.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It's unsigned, it doesn't give away much of its providence,
but the allegations are very clear, and it seems to
be what is put to the perpetrator in his interview.
It's drawn from this document. Seems very clear, and I
don't want to go into the detail because it is harrowing,
and I really appreciate you talking about this at all.
But what we see is over a period of three years,
(25:28):
a grooming sexual assault that stopped short of actual penetration
fucking use that word, but something that was clearly very
damaging to you and to not be believed. But I
think also to find the evidence in the cupboard, i'd
suggest going back to the cupboard again and see if
there's any more in there. You know that may be
(25:49):
useful to the police. Have you done that.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Or actually no longer in that house, But there's potential
that other documents exist because of the sheer hoarding that
my mother did. That I'm still drowning in, you know
a lot of stuff. You know, I just ran out
of time to sort through things. Things just had to
be boxed up and whatnot and just moved. And so
there's still boxes and crates and filing cabinets full of paperwork.
(26:17):
And one day I might be able to sit down
and go through it and you know, magically come across
something else. But just to point out there it there
was penetration. He did use his fingers, and he had
(26:38):
made a start with his penis. He just hadn't fully
inserted it, but he had inserted essentially, like I suppose
you could say, the head of the penis, and that's
the thing that's part of the groomy. I think he
was slowly working up to where he would have the
day would have come where he would be fully inserting it.
(27:01):
But obviously, you know, having said something, you know, interjected
any further acts from occurring. But absolutely I have no
doubt that if if I hadn't happened to have said
something that these acts would have just continued and potentially
continued for.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Years, which they did for three long years.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Well they already had which yeah, which is why this
wasn't you know, some random you know, active you know,
chrome of opportunity as they say that, you know, it
was the stranger who had to catch me walking down
the street, grab pulled me into the bushes, did what
they did, and then took off and never seen again.
(27:42):
And I'm not making light of those I'm just saying
just bringing up the difference between someone who's got unfettered
access to in the four walls of the home with
potentially a fairly ignorant parent because as mentioned, you know,
was she completely in the dark about these acts occurring?
(28:05):
Did she know and did she turn a blind eye?
Or at the very least should she have known, should
she have been suspicious and still decided to Oh, we
don't talk about those sort of things, you know, that
sort of era and mindset that that carried through as
to you know, why she made up other reasons as
(28:28):
to why the marriage broke down because you know, she
couldn't possibly face telling people the.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Truth for fear of being judged, I guess.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I I don't know, and on course, you know, I'm
never going to get an answer from her anymore. But
that lie is so ingrained in her that even a
few years ago, during an assessment with a medical specialist
you know who just you know, was asking about background,
social history, you know, family background, and asked about you know,
(29:05):
general questions. You know, how many times you've been married,
you know, invariably you know, why did the marriages ended?
And listening to her give reason as to why the
second marriage ended, and I just was just flabbercusted that this.
I think the lie is so ingrained that she completely
believes it.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I should say that your mother is still alive, but
she's suffering dementia, so she's beyond any chance to get
definitive assistance again. But as I read the record of interview,
the perpetrator is able, over an hour or so interview
to deny everything except for one thing. He does admit
that he showed you a pornographic magazine and as if
(29:50):
that you were interested in it.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, that's the excuse he gives when they ask him
why he showed it to me, and his answer was
because she wanted to see it, which just astounds me
that it just seemed to be accepted as an answer
by the police as well, and not only that, And
this is what leads me to you know, I have
a few reasons as to why I believe I could
(30:13):
not be his first and only victim, but one of
them is because I, you know, also since tried to
lodge a complaint in regards to their inaction on that admission.
And of course it's come back to me telling me
that that wasn't an offense at that time, which you know,
(30:34):
is frustrating, but of course you know, of course, what
can you do about it? But it still says to
me that he seemed to know that. Otherwise, why would
he admit to that unless he knew that they couldn't
do anything about that, And that in itself should be
highly suspicious that this is someone who knows the system.
(30:58):
And even if he hasn't had that accusation landed to
him before. I mean, I've listened and you know, to
enough documentaries on this topic to know that there's a
society of them. They know who each other is, they
interact with each other and pass tips on. And I
(31:19):
think that you know, he's found out from others that
they can't do you for that, because how else would
you know, Why would you admit to that, why would
you say no to everything except that unless you knew
they couldn't do anything about that?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Because you covered this in that handwritten statement. What did
you say was the purpose of showing you that magazine?
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So my memory, apart from whatever I've said in there,
just separate to that, my own memories of those magazines,
was his showing me. And I think, you know, obviously
I didn't know these magazines existed, and so it would
have started by him showing me and wanting me to
look through it and start to pick out what I'd
(32:04):
like to try. Essentially as disgusting.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
As that is as an eleven year old, this is
a forty three year old man.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
This was I was younger, because this is happening over
that three year period. So this wasn't just right at
the end, So I could have been It could have
started when I was eight and praying on the fact
that I have no idea that any of this is
inappropriate or wrong, and just going on thinking, obviously thinking
it's some sort of game or like whatever. He had
(32:35):
managed to convince me of had worked, and yes, so
wanting me to pick out things to try. And there
probably was a time where I had said to you know,
I'd asked him, you know, to get the book to
look through it, because is what this is what the
grooming was, this is what he had been, you know,
(32:56):
getting me to do. And so I was just you know,
being you know, the good child and you know, thinking
I'm doing what what to expect it of me? Which,
you know, it's just horrifying to think that that's that's
where you were.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
You've been brainwashed by this individual. And when in the
interview he was asked, okay, you say this didn't happen.
Why do you think Fleur is saying this, he said, well,
I think it's because I make her do the right thing,
falling back on his authority as a father figure. It's monstrous.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, it's hard to comment on actually, because we talked
about this off air.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
The effect that it's had on you and your your childhood,
these important formative years where you are you're into puberty
or forming your views about sexuality, and you have this
monster who's exploiting you at these critical moments. What effect,
(34:02):
how do you think it has had on you and
the way you've formed if you're the world and your sexuality.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Oh look, it's probably even affected me more than what
I realized. It's affected me, but it sets you on
this trajectory, and the one for me just seemed to
be trauma after trauma. There were in comparison, albeit more minor,
but there were other occasions of an assault. You know,
(34:33):
I was assaulted in a cinema and I froze at
the time when it happened, and I mentioned it. I
remember mentioning it to my friend who had gone to
the cinema with After the cinema, and I also remember,
and I don't mean this to be derogatory to my friend,
but I remember it was sort of turned into a
(34:54):
bit of a joke and it was being laughed about,
and I probably participated in the joke, but inside, you know,
you feel this sort of discomforts like and of course
looking back and go why was this being joked about.
There was a family friend of my father's who you know,
(35:16):
he was grooming me towards something and again he so
that started off. He was someone of European descent, and
you know how sometimes they're very I don't know how
to describe it. They're very family orientated, that big families,
you know, they're all kind of you know, giving each other.
(35:38):
You know, you get the double kiss, you know, on
your cheeks, you get the big hugs. And so when
it starts off like that, you put it down to
that's just their culture, that's just the way they are.
But of course it started to slowly mold a bit
more than that, and initially I would just right off, guy, No,
I'm just you know, being silly. It's not that at all,
(35:59):
until there was one incident where it was much more
obvious that, no, this is not just their cultureal you know,
giving everyone hugs. This was this is actually, you know,
more more.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Of an assault, raping you and so forth.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Essentially, yes, and again I kind of froze, and I
reported it to my father, and my father, I guess,
to his credit to a degree, he believed me that
I was probably i know, seventeen eighteen maybe at the
time that this was occurring, and he confronted this friend,
(36:40):
and I think that ended the friendship. Like my father was,
you know, I'm done with you, and I think they'd
been friends for a very long time. But of course
I look back now it's like there was still no
police report made.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Well, that's right again. Again, you say something and it
has an impact on somebody else that you're now responsible for,
and there's nobody in your corner. There's nobody seeking justice
for you. You and I can see why now you've
just said enough of this, enough of this. You found
this material in the cupboard, that you've seen your mother's
(37:14):
lack of action. You know this individual is living in
Melbourne and you think, stuff it, there's going to be
some action. Now. How do you feel about how it's
gone for these years? It's still not happening, it's still
not making progress, and each day brings the likelihood that
this perpetrator will get away with it because you'll be
(37:35):
in the cemetery.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, it's constantly in the back of your mind that
one of these days, the next phone call from the
police will be to tell me that the investigations closed
because the perpetrator has died. And it's a huge concern.
Hence why sort of you know, I'm trying to find
you know, how can I, shall we say, help encourage
(37:58):
the police to give my case priority because it's a
unique priority. You know, I'm sure there are other older
perpetrators out there of current cases, and maybe the threat
for them dying is also real, But I can't say
that would be all of them, that the threat of
dying from old age is the reason for the priority
(38:19):
for other cases. I think it's just that, oh, there,
they're much more recent, and that's why you know, they're
striking while the iron's hot. So they say, well, it's
I think it's.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
A getting a little bit cold again for mine. But
you know what, I find encouraging. That's probably the wrong word.
But despite this trauma, despite all you've been through, you've
had a functional life, You've had your own children, you
work as a theater, nurse in the hospital, you're in
a compassionate, caring profession. You've got on with life despite
(38:50):
these things. And I think for you not to get justice,
you've never complained, you've never given up, but to not
get justice at this stage is a borrent to me.
And I'm sure there are people listening out there right
now who were also victims of historical sexual assault. Now,
don't just sit there, don't just sit there, send us
(39:12):
an email, get in touch with crime stoppers. What do
you hope will happen. Now, I'm good, by the way,
I'm going to send this this podcast to Queensland Police.
I'm going to send it to Victoria Police, and we're
going to demand some answers on this what's actually happening.
If I can find this individual, why can't they, Why
can't they knock on his door and ask him after
(39:33):
all these years, what happened? And also whether he can
go back to Queensland and face up to these allegations,
because you're right, these pedophiles, they're rarely a one off thing.
There's other instances, and we've got dozens and dozens of
historical sexual assault cases involving women just like you, and
(39:55):
he may well be right for one or two of
those or more So. If you don't ask the question,
you don't get the answer. And right now he's likely
to escape out the chimney of the crematorium. And that's
just wrong, it's monstrous.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yes, And so that's one of my reasons why I
don't believe I would be his first, because when you
look back at the age he would have been when
he came across me, he'd already was in his forties.
I can't, I just can't believe that he suddenly, you know,
(40:32):
developed this behavior in his forties. I don't believe that.
I'm much more likely to believe that there are other
victims who may have come forward and said something and
were also not believed, or I'm sure you've known that
this happened. A lot of cases, people don't say anything
at all. They just bottle it up and do hold
(40:54):
it with them for forty fifty, sixty, whatever year is,
until in their old age they finally will say something,
or they wait till the perpetrators died or relevant party
have died before they say something. I will just go
back to your mention about my functional life. I disagree
(41:14):
that it's been functional. It may in somewhat seem like
that on the outside, but it's been It's been a struggle.
You know. Yes, some are registered nurse, so I have
a degree from UNI. But that was a tough slog.
That was hard because of my struggles, because of my
lack of self esteem of believing that I could do it,
(41:36):
that I was worthy of it, which goes right back
to the same struggles I had in schooling, not being supported,
having this trauma that no one was allowed to know
about alone you know, helped me through the relationship that
produced my two children, was a domestic violence relationship for
many years. And you and again I seem to be
(41:57):
ahead of this curve when it comes to you know, catchphrases.
And so I was a victim of grooming by my
perpetrator before they knew what grooming was. All the same
with a lot that happened in this domestic violence relationship,
which was a lot of the you know, coercive control. Well,
people didn't know what that was then, I mean, domestic
violence itself was barely recognized. And even then, you know,
(42:22):
you really, you know, unless you turned up essentially on
death's door having been beaten to a pulp, you weren't believed.
And even then you probably you might have been sort
of well, what did you do that made him angry?
Like there was and even today, like we've moved a
long way with domestic violence, but we're still a long
way short when it comes to, you know, the prevention
(42:46):
and the management, et cetera. And so every step just
seems to have been a struggle. I I'm single. I've
been single for a long time because you know, one
probably the most important factor to have in a relationship
is trust and I just don't know I can never
could ever trust anyone again, because you know, to be
(43:09):
in a relationship, to have that sort of closeness, that
level of you know, intimacy and so forth, that's a
lot of trust that you in part to somebody else,
and I don't know that I can do that. So
so yes, I disagree with being functional. I think if anything,
I'm probably just that, you know, it's sort of not
(43:30):
really living. It's not you know, there's aspects of happiness,
but I wouldn't say overall it's a happy life. You know.
I'm now, you know, in the position of caring, ironically
caring for my mother with her dementia, despite you know,
essentially the lack of care that was offered to me
(43:50):
in my time of need. And there's you know, other things,
other things in there as well in the mix, just
because you know, life can be crap sometimes. But out
of this, I just obviously I'd like, you know, to believe,
to get a move on. But I would also really
implore that if there was anyone for their own circumstances,
(44:14):
to come forward, because you know, particularly if it turns
out that there's anyone who happened to have the same
perpetrator as me. I would hope that that would send
the investigation forward in leaps and bounds, just by the
sheer fact that there's someone else who can attest to
being a victim of his, because there must be out there.
(44:36):
I just can't believe that there wouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I think you're probably right. He was working as an
interstate truck driver in this period, so he was mobile,
he was moving around the country, so it could well be.
I realized talking to you, how I lack the words
to really understand what you've been through and to help
you communicate. And you've done an amazing job in doing that.
And also I can sense the deep well of trauma
(45:01):
there is not just for you, but a whole generation
of young girls and women who suffered these indignities, these
crimes back in the eighties. Because the more I learn
about this, I've done in several cases now and it's
mister cruel in Victoria, cases like that where young girls
were abducted and sexually assaulted, and it was almost treated
(45:21):
as a social welfare issue back then. And that's something
that a child will eventually get over and integrate into
their lives, and your story just brings it home that
that's not the case at all. And I apologize for
even saying the word functional. I realized it's the wrong word.
You've done an amazing job. You said to me last night,
you feel like a broken cup, just in pieces, and
(45:43):
I can't imagine what that's like. I just admire your
strength for putting yourself a through a police investigation when
you've got to dragoon them and push them at every step,
and also do this interview because I'm sure there are
women listening right now, and you know who you are,
you know what you've been through, and you deserve justice too.
(46:07):
So if anything comes out of this, and I certainly
hope it does, and I'm going to keep pushing this.
As I said, I'm going to send the podcast to
Victoria Police and Queen's an police and say is this
good enough? It's one thing back in the day failing.
We understand that there was a lot of reasons why
it didn't go forward then, but today there's just no reason.
So flu, I really appreciate you sharing your story with
(46:29):
us today. And what message would you give to anybody
else who's in your position that.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I understand it's a difficult thing to talk about. You
don't want to be that person, but you know, having
had it buried away for so long has certainly not
done me any favors, and in trying to heal, it
(46:57):
needs to be brought to the surface, as painful as
it probably is. But it's just going to eat continue
to eat away at you if it's not if it's
not dealt with, really, if it's not spoken about with somebody,
at least talk to somebody, you know. If you don't
have a trusted family, a member or friend, you know,
(47:19):
you speak to a counselor even if you don't want
to go to the police. But this has clearly been
eating at me for all this time, and you know,
I have deliver with the frustration that I didn't speak
out sooner because I didn't, you know, essentially know who
to speak out sooner. And like I said, going back
to that penny drop moment, that I feel completely stupid
(47:42):
that expecting that people did do the right thing around
me at the time, and they didn't, And so I
don't think I'll get closure. It is an odd term.
I think sometimes it gets used a lot, but I'm
hoping to get maybe one day to some sort of peace.
(48:02):
Whether it's so it's not continuing to destroy me any
more than what it already has. I wouldn't want that
to be happening to other people as well, more than
it already has been.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
And is I agree we use this word closure all
the time. It's not like closing a book or closing
a door. But I think it is about people finding
their voice. And I think your voice is strong, and
it's truthful, and you're seeking justice and I think that's
and the community should support that, and the police should
support that. So Flu, I really want to thank you
(48:35):
again for sharing it with me and for choosing me.
Most importantly, you've taught me a lot through this process,
talking to you over the weeks, and the little bit
of work I've put into it to locate the perpetrator.
I hope the police are doing the same thing. They
go back to that door, knock on his door, so
one day he has to face it, and you might
get a moment where he admits his culpability. Whether he
(48:58):
goes to jail or something, I don't know, but that's
the really least we can expect that our police will
take up the casules on you will be half and
other people as well. So if you're out there, I
urge you have counseling, work out what you can do,
and if you can bring a case, call crime Stoppers
one one hundred, triple three, triple zero. FLU, thank you
so much for sharing the story today. Thank you, and
(49:23):
that's Flu. It's an amazing story for mine and you
can see the isolation she suffered from the very beginning
where she was made to feel like she was the
one causing the problem. And you've heard her voice, insistent,
almost polite, saying, please give me justice, and there's more
of you out there. It's not too late. Please get
(49:45):
in touch with police and if polease won't help you,
send me an email. Adam Shanner, writer at gmail dot com.
This has been a real crime with Adam shanned Thank
you for listening.
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