June 15, 2025 • 41 mins
Ed Toller scammed nearly $1.8 million from unsuspecting investors—not to fund a lavish life, but to feed a gambling addiction he couldn’t control. In this raw and revealing episode, Ed sits down with Adam Shand to unpack the real cost of compulsive betting, the lies that spiraled out of control, and the prison sentence that changed everything. It’s not just a story about crime—it’s a story about denial, addiction, and redemption in the gambling capital of the world.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm your host
Adam Shand. Australia is the gambling capital of the world
by a huge margin. Daylight is second.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Australians lose more money gambling than anyone.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Else on Earth.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Our turnover is greater than the GDP of all but
fifty countries of the world, and the losses are just
as staggering.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
In the twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three period,
Australian has lost approximately thirty two billion dollars to gambling and.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We have an epidemic of gambling related crime. Some of
the crimes are ingenious, but most have a compulsive, pathological
nature to them. Whenever I see a story where someone
has stolen from their employers, family, or friends, I look
for the gambling link. Gambling has always driven crime. Many
of our most notorious crooks were also huge punters. But
(01:06):
the people I'm seeing go through the courts today are
not career criminals, but people feeding an addiction. Ed Toller
stole one point seven million from people who believe he
was a financial advisor who could invest their money wisely.
In total, he swindled one million seven hundred and forty
four thousand, two hundred and twenty dollars from fourteen elderly
(01:28):
and unsophisticated investors, but instead he spent it on backing
horses and living a fantasy lifestyle. He promised to invest
the money instead, He's accused of gambling it away on
horses and sports, but reality eventually came calling, and in
twenty eighteen, Ed was sentenced to eight years in jail,
and he served five. He's free again, rebuilding his life,
(01:53):
and he now shares the story of his fall from
grace and what it offers others in the grip of
a gambling addiction. And I'm really pleased to welcome Ed
to the Real Crime Studio.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, Ed, oh good, I Adam, thanks thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
How do you reflect on what happened to you and
your journey to this moment?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean you.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Touched on a couple of things during that intro, and
gambling and the money that I took and the eventual
consequence of it. I guess you know, they all happened
so far apart, but ultimately the downfall, if you like,
or the end result was I guess an inevitability. And
you know, I probably could have seen it coming twenty
years ago, but chose to.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I guess it's not that I.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Chose to ignore it, but I certainly chose to avoid
thinking about it because I could see that gambling was
a real problem for me, but I wasn't willing to
admit that early on in the piece.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
You were born in England, and I think you all
gambling began there, in horse racing and so forth.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean, I've been involved and tied in with
horse racing for a big part of my life through
one way or another. You know, I had some family
ties within the industry. I loved it.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I still do. I'm enamored with the sport. I think
it's something that, unfortunately.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
You either really like it and take a really good
interest in it or it's just never for you. And
I think unfortunately I was one of those people where
it got me early on. And it wasn't initially about
the gambling. It was more about the theater of the
sport and what it offered. But as my opportunities within
the industry sort of dimmed, I found that gambling was
(03:30):
one that was always there and I could always utilize
and I could always rely on and I guess I
was under the impression that I could make a living
out of gambling on horse racing and other sports, and
how wrong I could be.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, what was the path then, because I believe you're
involved in racing back in England and I think you
were warned off tracks for a couple of years there.
There was a story about tips and jockeys and so forth,
and you were caught up in that, and I guess
your livelihood was curtailed then. I think you called it
a toxic lifestyle you're involved with. You come to Australia,
(04:05):
What was your plan?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, so look, I'll touch on that briefly.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Look, I think when I got warned off from tracks
in the UK for twelve months, that was a real
shock to the system.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
You know, I let a lot of people down.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And I never saw myself in that position before that happened,
and I never believed that that would happen. But yeah,
ultimately I was very naive in the situation to think
that I was going to exploit a.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Loophole that wasn't a loophole. Australia.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
The move, it was all about a change of scenery,
a fresh start, you know, a culture change. And you know,
little did I know that landing here, I was landing
in the gambling capital of the world, which.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You know it certainly isn't.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
After a week, I went into a pub and it
had a bookies in the corner, and I thought, all
my dreams have come true, so to speak. It's like,
it's that easy. And it was alarming, but not in
a bad way. Initially, for someone that loves gambling and
someone that loves that the combined lifestyle, the drinking and
the gambling and all of that other stuff that goes
(05:07):
with it, I thought it was great. You know, I thought,
this is just ideal. I can do it guilt free,
and you know, nothing will ever happen. But it all
unfolded pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Because you were a student of the form you would
have backed yourself to be able to make good decisions
and to make a living, because that's what you've done previously.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
When did it all start to go wrong?
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I mean, you know, I could always pick a winner,
always never had a problem studying the formula of something
I was obviously quite good at.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I could find winners. You know, I had.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Access to information that others might not, so I had
an edge, But the problem was I couldn't stop because
I did it compulsively. As any other gambling addict or
person who doesn't gamble will understand, if you can't stop
doing something, eventually it's not going to work for you.
And I think it began to unfold in two thousand
and fourteen and I had a business. I had a
(06:06):
couple of clients that I could see avenues where I
could utilize their funds to try and make more money
for myself. So I started doing that, but I wasn't
doing it consciously, and I knew what I was doing,
and I was in a bad place mentally and physically.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And I wasn't making right decisions.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
And to think that I landed here in twenty twelve,
and by twenty seventeen, I was in jail for five years.
It's such a small period of time for someone's life
to unravel the way it did, but ultimately it probably
didn't start unraveling until twenty fourteen, and between that time
and the time that I got arrested, it's a three
(06:45):
year gap where everything just went boom.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Because people rarely set out with the intention to steal
to gamble, but it's sometimes let's use the money to
chase my losses and I'll get out ahead of back
in the black, as it were. But often it doesn't
go that way. I think it's very common story.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, Like I never ever intended to take one dollar
of any of the client's money, the truth be known.
What happened was I was running an arbitrage scheme that
went barely up because of my gambling habit, and I
decided to leave a bit live rather than trade out
(07:26):
of it. And it was for a couple of hundred
thousand dollars and I didn't have the necessary funds to
replace it, so I had to make a call, and
I made a call to another client and I fulfilled
the investment, and then I used that money to gamble
to chase the other money back. And it was a
domino effect that kept going.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Until it stopped, you know, until it became too much,
until people realized that they probably.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Weren't going to see their money again.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
And unfortunately I wasn't in a position to return that
money because I gambled it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Because I think a lot of people see this situation
as like a moral failing, but I think it's a pathological,
compulsive situation. And I think when you see what happens
to people in their day to day as they're in
the grip of this sort of gambling bag, it is horrific.
Tell us what an average day was like for you
(08:21):
as you're chasing your losses.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
What would you do?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yeah, I think for me, when I was gambling at
that sort of level, you know, I might be having
two or three hundred bets a day.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You know what I find probably.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
More soul destroying about it is that, you know I
wouldn't start off. I would start off under the notion
that I'm just going to have a couple of bets today.
You know, I used to say to myself that I
didn't like to win early because if I won early,
I wouldn't stop.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I would run out of money by the end of
the day.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Because I think I can win time after time, So
if I win too early, it's no good. But you know,
my typical day would be that I'd get up, I'd
study the form, I'd start betting at lunchtime, and you know,
I might still be betting on greyhound's highness and horses
until the middle of the night.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You know, of all the betting accounts I ever had.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
There was only one time from one company did an
individual who worked for them say, are you okay? Like
you know, you know, you've had like three hundred bets
today or in the last week, You've had this money
number of bets. And I genuinely respect that guy even
looking back, because he wasn't the way that their company
was set up. They didn't make direct money out of
(09:35):
me on how much I punted, It didn't matter to them.
It was more a case of I was just a
valuable client to them for many different reasons. But he
showed true compassion on a couple of occasions. So I
don't want to tie them all with the same brush.
But you know, that was one account out of twenty,
(09:55):
and I lost a lot of money through a lot
of different accounts. You know, obviously the money that we're
talking is one point seven million that was stolen, but
the true reality of that that was probably turnover of
you know, anywhere between three and four So you know,
there's a lot of money that's gone over time there.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Because you did know the forms, there must have been
good days where you're actually winning. Were there moments where
you think, well, if I get far enough ahead I
can stop this.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I mean there was times where I won a lot
of money, and you know, I would use some of
it to function life, like you know, paying my rent.
Because people think, you know, a lot of what was
written in the press is ah, he lived this big,
lavish lifestyle, he lived in this place, but the true
reality is of it. I was with Telstra and I
could get the records. My phone got cut off every
(10:44):
second month because I wasn't paying one hundred and eighty.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Dollars a month telephone bill.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
So you know, as much as it's looked upon that
I was living lavishly, I was living day to day
hand to mouth because all the money that I had
was going towards gambling on the whole. And you know,
there would be times I'd always as a compulsive gambler,
I'm always under the impression that I can dig myself
out of any hole, because along with being a compulsive gambler,
(11:10):
I was a compulsive liar. And I learned how to
lie to protect myself and to enable myself to be
able to do these things.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And you know, I look back at that now and
I'm ashamed.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Of some of the behavior that I portrayed, but it
wasn't a true reflection of me.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And I know that.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
And there's going to be people that will say that's bollocks,
and there'll be people that will say good on for
turning it around. But the reality is, I know in
myself that that wasn't a true reflection my personality and
my character. But when this thing gets you, it doesn't
stop until it takes everything from you. And they talk
about rock bottoms, and everyone's got a different one, and yeah,
(11:53):
it can come in any shape.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Or size, because what you say is correct, because every
gambler that I've spoken to, or compulsive behaviors, even drugs
and so forth, there's a gap between a person's values
and where they found themselves, and they live in this
limbo in between, which was full of anxiety, shame, and guilt,
which often prevents them from stopping, and they lose themselves
(12:18):
in that. You talk about a rock bottom, What was
your personal rock bottom?
Speaker 4 (12:23):
It's funny because I thought I had plenty before jail,
and then I went there, and I think ultimately that
was definitely. Like I remember sitting in the court when
I got sentenced, and I was so angry that I'd
been sentenced for so long. I got such a high,
big sentence. I was fuming, and I remember leaning over
to my solicter saying to him, you got to lodge
(12:46):
an appeal, like that's ridiculous. But I remember going back
because I've already had ten eleven months in jail by
this time. When I got sentenced, I didn't get any bail.
I remember going back to the jail that night and
just sitting there and reflecting on it and just thinking,
you know what, this is probably a good thing.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Ultimately, this is probably what I need.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Because the judge didn't spare you.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
He gave you a good bollocking, a good dressing down
in his remarks, and he talked about the people that
you had stolen from their elderly people, in some cases retirees,
putting their life savings into things, and there was seemed
to be a very high moral culpability that he wanted
to communicate to you.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Did you feel that way.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and look, ultimately, with the
benefit of hindsight, now I think it was probably the
right sentence, and I think that it was a just
outcome for the crime that I committed.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You know, I don't hide behind the fact that I
was a gambler.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
But what I did was the wrong thing, and it's
by law, it's a punishable offense by a criminal court,
and I deserved what I got in my opinion. You know,
I speak to people all the time and through gambling
arenas or whatever it is, and they all say, oh,
you know, that.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Sentence was ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
But ultimately, you know, I turned people's lives upside down
with what I did.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You know, that's something that I've got to live with,
but they've also got to live with it.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
So you know, there is a moral accountability that's attached
to that, and you know, I need to be held
accountable for what I did, and I feel.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Like I was.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
You know. At the same time, the people who are
probably along with you for the ride, enjoying that high
lifestyle that you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in
the jail cell on your own and you realize you're
sort of friendless, and that must be a very difficult
moment personally, and you're taking stock of your own personality
(14:39):
and your own choices. That's a moment most people don't face.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
What's that like?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought
that they would have been quite close friends. And I
wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do
would ever deter them from having a friendship with me.
But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty
percent of the people that I was with prior to
going to jail I no longer am. And there was
(15:09):
definitely a sense of anger at first. But you know,
I've had a lot of time to reflect on that stuff,
obviously from where I was, and I think that to me,
that's a bonus now to live life without those people
and to not have them within my circle, if you like,
because I think certainly it's not that i'd believe that
(15:29):
they're guilty by association, but certainly they're around when there
was all the trimmings of what comes with being a
gambler who wants to spend his money on all sorts
of different things, you know, and there were people that
would take advantage of that situation, and you know, they're
no longer around. And to me, do I look back
on that and think where are they now?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
No?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Not really, because I think that they're probably doing it
to someone else, or they're probably living a life that
you know, maybe they regret some of it as well,
i'd hope.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Well, I'm sure in the Eastern Cumbers of Sydney where
I also grew up as well, and I understand the
tribe of people that attach themselves to you, and you
can back it in that they would have attached themselves
to somebody else the next hot thing, and it is
a soulless experience and friendships are very tenuous. In jail,
you met a different class of people. You went to
(16:25):
a private school in England, well educated, you know, here
you're meeting people with no chance in life who were
in there and this is going to be their life career. Criminals,
people have made some really dumb mistake. How did that
impact you and give you, I guess a sense of
what you'd squandered in a way.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Yeah, I mean, jail here is really eye opening. Obviously
you touched on the fact that I lived in the
Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, which
is very sheltered and very privileged and very out of
the I'd almost call.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
It far removed from reality in a hones Stone.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
And when I went in there, you know, I went
to a number of different jails within New South Wales,
but I met so many people that have literally had
the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. They've had
no chance since the day that they were born. They've
had domestic violence, they've had drug use, they've had alcohol, gambling,
(17:27):
and they've grown up knowing only one route really, if
you like, Whereas I didn't, I grew up knowing that
crime was bad and that I shouldn't do it, and
if I do it, you know, this is what the
punishment will be. And I feel like there's so much unknown,
you know, there's this like people are obsessed with crime
shows and documentaries around crime and what it is and
(17:49):
who commits it and.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Murder shows and all this whatever else.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
But the reality is that the people who are committing
day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep
returning in and out of.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
The system year in, year out.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out
here because there's no need for it, you know, there's
no need for people to hear about it. But I
think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I
write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read,
you know, wanted to translate a message across to a
judge when they were going in for you know, some
form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write
(18:25):
something to the judge, not letting him or her know
why they should show leniency. And I think there was
I guess I was just living in this bubble where
I had no idea of what real society had or
was going on. And I think that you know, probably
for me, that was a big wake up call.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well it was.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I guess it was a humbling moment where you could
look at your life to that point and what it
could be from here on in. And I mean five
years in jail is no joke, and it's about punishment,
but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. And you're there
a gambling addict. You can still gamble in jail if
you want to. There's always ways to do that. But
(19:07):
was there any semblance of anything, a program, a person,
a moment where you could confront your gambling and start
to make a plan about what would happen after jail.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
I mean, they ran a couple of things when you
go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you
a load of questions and they say, are you addicted
to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they
ask you whether it's alcohol, drugs. You have to nominate
gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with,
and I did, but I think it took like two
(19:38):
and a half years before I got into a program
to address anything around addiction. And they do this thing
called Equip's Addiction, which is run by a programs officer
in the jail.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I mean it's better than nothing.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
But to me, it was verging on a waste of time,
you know, And a lot of people have to do it.
They make people do it in order to get certain
classifications and potentially even get parole or you know, whatever
it may be. So as a compulsive gambler or an alcoholic,
you have to sort of volunteer the fact that you
want to give it up, because otherwise it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
You have to be willing to admit that it's a problem.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Whereas this is kind of forced upon people who have
said at a screening question that they might have drunk
too much or taken drugs from time to time. So
really that was the only thing that was offered. And
gambling's rife in jail in Australia, Like it's everywhere. I
gambled in jail a lot. What would you gamble on
(20:37):
the footy, the NRL horses anything, play poker, play cards.
You probably gamble more in there than you would on
the outside, to be fair. It's just that you've got
to pay whoever it is within the system, you know,
or you've got to gamble against one of your fellow
inmates rather than an app or a bookie.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Which can be dangerous and frightening. In jail is certainly
both those things, but it's also incredibly boring too, and
you've got to pass the time somehow. You're facing this
five year stretch. How you're feeling each day.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Well, I went in there very heavy and chubby and
bloated and a mess from all the drink and the
drugs and the bad food and the gambling. So I
pretty much said to myself that I definitely wanted to
fix that up. So that was one of the first
things that I did, was fitness and got myself in
better shape. But I mean, you can only do that
(21:33):
to some form of level. It depends what jail you're in,
but you know, you're locked in a cell a lot
of the time. It might be from three pm until
eight am the next day, so.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
You're very limited in what you can do.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
You're very limited in what you can eat, what you
get access to you know, you have a certain number
of TV channels, whatever. But I think that you've got
to be able to reflect when you're in there, because
that's a lot of your time is going to be
spent doing that, you know, especially when you're doing a
long stretch, because effectively there is nothing else to do.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
You know, you can read. I wanted to study when
I was in there. I wasn't allowed to.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
That was a big bummer for me because early on
in the thing, I've really expressed an interest in looking
into doing a psychology degree, but there was no assistance. Yeah,
it was just very They made it harder to do
it than not to do it, which, yeah, it's just
I think that's a reflection of the system itself.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well, the system is there to punish you primarily, and
that's always been the notion of jail. If you can
make it a little bit harder than people liked them
that that's part of the whole ethos of jail. But
as you say, you get that time to reflect, and
I guess people can have these demoscene conversions, like bold moments, epiphanies,
all that type of stuff. But it's not like that,
(22:50):
is it. It's a gradual coming back to yourself and
closing that gap between what you'd become and who you
really were.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Well, a lot of.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
People love going to jail because they make money in there,
or it's an opportunity for them. You learn from the
best in there if you want to become a career criminal.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
So there's two aspects of it.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
You can either go in there under the notion that
you really want to sort yourself out and get something
from it, make it a worthwhile exercise, or you're going
in there and you come out worse than you went in.
And I think that's a part of the reason that
we see the reoffending rates and the returns into the
system is because of the lack of stability, or lack
(23:31):
of programs, or lack of help that there is within
that system. So you really have to be quite a
strong character, I think, to overcome that whilst in there.
And actually try and do something with your times, especially
because I understand the people that are in and out
doing six month stretches, there's not enough time for them
to do a program or a business degree or whatever
it may be. But then the ones that are in
(23:53):
there longer term, you know, you pretty soon in you
know that you're looking at a decent sentence. You want
to try and put some things in place where you're
going to get something from that.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
And that was my notion.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
And I knew the punishment fitted the crime, and so
I knew that it was about me being punished, and
you know, that meant going from jail to jail, and
that meant waiting a certain period of time to get
certain things. But I was a bit unlucky because obviously
COVID hit when I was in jail, and that diminished
any chance of any work release or early release or.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Anything like that.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
So that was all removed from me, which is a
normal aspect of prison for most people these days.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
With a decent sized sentence.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
That you will get the opportunity to go out to
the community prior to your release and either work or
you'll get day release or weekend release, and all of
that was removed through COVID, So you know, I took
a few knocks on the way, and then eventually when
I got out, I knew I just had to make
some changes in life.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Because you went in at thirty four, a good time, Charlie,
having a great time of it. You hit the sober
reality of Porridge in jail, and you come out nearing forty.
The world has changed completely. You're hoping to make changes yourself,
but when you walk out, you see there's a gambling
opportunity on every corner. It's in your phone, it is everywhere.
(25:15):
How did you confront the hard moment of giving up
your gambling addiction.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Yeah, I was really fortunate that when I came out,
I met someone. That person was in a twelve step
recovery and recommended that I go to a meeting of
gamblers anonymous, and I went to a meeting, and if
I'm honest, the first.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
One didn't really rock my boat. I wasn't taken with it.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
And I gambled again for a month or two and
you know, nothing drastic, but I didn't enjoy it. I
didn't enjoy the gambling like I felt this sense of chasing, chasing, chasing,
which I didn't enjoy, and I wasn't drinking.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So I was sober as well.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
So I started going to some more meetings and I
just I started to meet people that have gone through
what I was going through and hearing what they've gone
through and hearing that there was some form of solution,
and I just decided to give it my best shot.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And I haven't looked back since.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
And I think that ultimately there's success within unity and groups.
Like when you see someone else tread a path and
they're successful, you kind of want.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What they have.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
And I think that that's what I've probably got now
from that. And yeah, it's been a huge, huge help
to me. But like you say, advertising and gambling, advertising
and the fact that pubs and clubs and Pokeys and
every bookie under the sun can advertise, the reality is
that I don't think that's going anywhere. The Pokeyes aren't
(26:50):
going anywhere, the bookies aren't going anywhere. Horse racing, greyhounds,
it's not going anywhere. You know, the footy, the sport, whatever,
that's not leaving. So it's up to us as addicts
if you like to try and steer clar of it organically.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Without I disagree with it all the advertising lite.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I don't think it should be allowed to be put
in front of our children and kids and the youth
of today.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
But ultimately they seem to get away with it.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Nothing's being done on the Murphy recommendations, which is very sad.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know, we've just re elected.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Alban Easy and I don't really believe that he is
that interested in making any change to it, which is unfortunate. Again,
but I don't think that any of them were prior
to the election, if I'm honest, and I think that
a lot of them would use it as a potentially
a sounding board to try and get voters, but I
think ultimately there's too much money coming through it.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
So you've got to work out a.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Way where you can stay away from this without that
being reality. And I think that that's what I've had
to do, and I know plenty of other people that
do it, and I think that's, you know, the best
avenue to use at this stage.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Because governments have a massive conflict of interest in Australia.
As much as they'd like to promote responsible gambling messages
and so forth, it's inescapable that our budgets rely upon
gambling taxes and excise, and that industry relies for its
success on the two or three percent of problem gamblers
(28:20):
like you, So I can't see how it's ever going
to change. It's always up to the individuals such as
yourself to do that. And as you say, you're always
an addict, how do you guard against relapses? Because, like
I say, you walk out the door, you can be
hit with a dozen gambling messages before you get to
the corner.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And I think I mean for me personally, I just
do what I've been doing for the last three and
a half years, which is I'll concentrate on myself. You know,
I might try and talk to people wherever possible who
are going through the same scenario.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That I was.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I think that helping people is a huge part of
recovering oneself.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Look, I'm very in touch.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
With what they're doing in the UK at the moment
in terms of around gambling and the legislation, and they're
doing affordability checks and that's been a huge driver. If
someone had come to me when I was in the
midst of my gambling and said, how are you affording
to do this? I wouldn't have been able to prove
my income, and so that avenue of opportunity would have
(29:21):
been cut off to me. Now, I know there's black
markets and there's bookies, but it's small changes like that
that can possibly help just as much as relinquishing advertising
and things like that. But if you cut off avenues
for gamblers, it's more likely that they will seek options
where they could stop gambling. But if everything's open to you,
(29:44):
and you know, if you can steal money, or you
can take money from employers, or you can take money
from your parents, and you can gamble, Like if you're
a nineteen year old and you take twenty or thirty
grand off someone, no company's going to ask them where
they got that money from.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
They're going to take it.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And when I pick up the newspapers every day, almost
there's another story about a fraud, an embezzlement, straight out theft,
people stealing to gamble, and that also doesn't include the
amount of money that's stolen from families. It's never reported.
So you've had a chance to see the extent of
this problem. And I don't think it's getting any better.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
No, And I think.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
That you hit the nail on the head Gambling is
a disease, and the feeling that it gives you is
a drug. It's just the same as taking drugs. There
is a rush like no other when you're doing it,
and so for an addict, if he has to steal
money to do it or she has to steal money
to do it, they will do that, just like a
(30:44):
drug addict will take money to go and score drugs.
It's the same thing, but it's not universally recognized as.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
A problem, and that is the problem. The problem sits
within the problem.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
And yet when people come for sentencing, there is no
mitigation for a gambling addiction the way that you might
have for other forms of addiction, including drugs. You're getting
the highest possible sentence, and the media often portrays these
gambling criminals, if you like, as losers, as the exception,
(31:19):
the people who didn't have the moral fiber, couldn't take
the heat, didn't have the courage, whatever it is. So
while we have that attitude that stokes the problem with gambling,
in my opinion, that we're not addressing the fact that
you're not a career criminal.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
You never set out.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
To do this, but it was your addiction that drove
you in a place and I love the fact that
you're not ashamed to admit what you did and take responsibility.
But there needs to be, in my opinion, some mitigation
given to people like you and sentencing.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yeah, I mean, look, I had two guys I know
and have had a bit to do with in the
last couple of years, have both been sentenced for similar
crimes to mine, And when there were sentences, I was just, honestly,
I was fabergasted by the sentences that they received. I
was just I'm dumbfounded because their cases pointed towards the
gambling side of things, probably way more than minded. They
(32:13):
both received quite similar sentences to me, and I thought,
how can a judge honestly looking at the facts of
where this person spent their money and gambled their money.
How can he honestly sit there and say that this
is not a problem. I just can't get my head
around it. I cannot fathom how they can come to
that decision consciously.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
You know, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
You know, if someone was high on drugs and went
and robbed a house, there's mitigating factors there because they
wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Potentially in their right mind or in a sober state.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
So what's the difference seeing a gambler taking money from
his employer to gamble with or someone stealing who's high
on drugs.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
To me, there's no difference there whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Well, I totally agree. And one thing that I've noticed
about gamblers, I mean, I guess drug x as well,
is that it's very isolating. People spend all their time
feeding this addiction. One psychologist in Canada I've spoken, he
talks about feeding the baby tiger. At the beginning, it's fun,
it's cute, and it's novel, but it gets bigger and
bigger and bigger, and it takes up all your time
(33:19):
feeding this ravenous tiger. And by the end you've exhausted,
you isolated from your family, there's nowhere to go. And
often gamblers end up bankrupt, in jail or dead by
their own hand. And we're seeing an epidemic of male
suicides in this country, and I would hazard a guess
that quite a bit of it is related to these
(33:39):
sorts of issues.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think suicide is just at an
all time high around the world, but here in Australia.
I know, I was looking up some statistics of it
the other day just through pure interest, and I think
there was something like thirty eight hundred suicide deaths last year.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And I think I mentioned to.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
You that I really despise the way that the media
talk about suicide or they don't talk about it. If
someone commits suicide, you basically are playing a guessing game,
reading the article until the very bottom where it says
cool lifeline if you've found this disturbing, or if you've
know someone that's going through this. And I find that
this is about awareness. Unless people know about it, this
(34:23):
is where the problem is. And suicide is a byproduct
of someone losing all their money and finding no avenue
or being cornered into a situation that they can't get
out of, and so there's only one way out, and
it's the gates of prison or a mental asylum or death,
and death is brought about by suicide. And you know,
(34:44):
I've lost a family member through suicide. I also know
multiple people that have committed suicide, and it never gets
any easier to hear about it. But I do feel
like there's a major problem with people not willing to
talk about it and not willing to advertise the fact
that this has happened because of something. You know, I
(35:06):
lived near a notorious suicide spot in Sydney, and you know,
I see the cop cars coming up and down here
looking for bodies all the time. It never gets any
easier to see, but it just doesn't surprise me. And
I've bumped into people. I bumped into a guy back
in February. He was going to jump, and you know,
I sat there and chatted to him for about twenty
(35:26):
minutes and I called the police and it turned out
he tried to do it the previous two days as well,
and he'd been seen on some cameras and you know,
I never saw him again. But that's just another example of, like,
we don't know what people are going through behind closed doors,
but if they read an article that can help them
(35:46):
understand about some of these things, there's a good chance
that that might carry some weight.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Because you've been in that dark place between your own
perception of yourself and your values and what you've become
a lot of people find that reflection awful, and you
did some terrible things, you admitted to it. Did you
ever get to that dark place where ending it all
seemed a convenient way out.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Yeah, yep, you know, certainly the first couple of days
in Surrey Hill's lock up and I got arrested initially,
and then you know, after I got sentenced, I was like,
I've got so long to go. I don't know if
I really want to do this. I'm not going to
have anything when I get out. But my family, you know,
I hurt them so much, and that would have been
(36:32):
the icing on the cake to do that. And I,
you know, I owe my family everything because they stood
by me. They didn't have to, and I can assure
you I wouldn't have blamed them if they didn't.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
But ultimately, my relationship with them has never ever been better.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
And I look back and think of some of those
thoughts that I had when I was thinking about doing
the worst thing, and I'm just really grateful that I
came to my senses, because I told you the other day,
I lost a friend earlier this year to suicide, and
ultimately I wasn't that surprised by it. But also what
it leaves behind is absolute and utter carnage, and I
(37:14):
just don't believe that that's a good way to leave
a legacy.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
That's right and you're now in your early forties, you've
come out the other side of this.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
How does life look?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Because I reckon, he's still a young man, because like
I'm sixty two, so everyone's young in their forties. How
do you see the future from here that you may
not have been able to see before?
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Yeah, I consider myself still quite young because I'm an
immature baby, if you like, who's only just started working
out how to live life properly on the right side
of life. I guess you know. I lead a very
simple life these days. I have a very beautiful partner
who understands and respects a lot of what I've been
(37:56):
through and a lot of what I've done.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
And yeah, I lead a very healthy lifestyle. I don't drink,
I don't.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Gamble anymore, and I've started to appreciate life for what
it is. I mean, I came to Australia and I
did the opposite of what the real culture is here,
especially where I live, which is fitness and good eating
and all that sort of stuff. I did the opposite
of that for the first five years that I was here,
and so now I'm out the backside of it and
(38:23):
doing I guess what a lot of other people in
this area would do and stay fit, and I think
I'm about to come to the end of my sentence
in totality, So I'm looking forward to that because my
travel's obviously been limited because of it. You know, I
haven't been able to see my family as much as
i'd want to. So a lot of that is things
that I'm looking forward to doing and that life's about
(38:45):
to hopefully afford me.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Sure, unlucky in gambling, lucky in life. Ultimately, it's an
amazing story. And I'm sure there are people listening here
right now who are confronting exactly the same issues that
you confronted, and they're doing it in silence. They're doing
it and they're concealing things, they're contemplating how to feed
the gambling addiction. What would be your message if you
(39:10):
could speak straight to their hearts.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
I think I'd just say, look, I think twice, because
whatever you do now, you won't be able to take back.
And I can assure you that the other side is
not where you want to be. And I think that
you know, if it's gambling that's an issue, there's avenues
of help. There's plenty of avenues you know, pick up
(39:34):
the phone.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And I don't think there's enough of this.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
I know that us as blokes, especially like we never
talk about our problems with each other. And you know,
I know there's a number of mental health charities that
are very helpful and I really am a massive advocate
for that because I've seen the power of one person
picking up the phone to another work on so many
different occasions that I would just say, before you're going
(39:59):
to do anything's really stupid, pick up the phone first
and speak to someone, and if.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
You still want to go and do it after that,
you know, we can't stop you.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
But you know, I think if it's going to be
the wrong thing that you're going to do, live with
the consequences of what you're going to do, because they
will come. You know, we don't go through life with
no consequences. Eventually it catches up with us. And you
know it did for me.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
It was the making of me, but that might not
be the case for everyone.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Ed. I really appreciate you sharing your story today. It's
taken a fee bit of courage and also some courage
to admit your mistakes and move beyond them.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
I wish you all the success in life. Thank you
so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Thanks Adam, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
And yeah, I was really overjoyed to be coming on this,
so thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
That was Ed Toller. He's learned a very hard lesson.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
They fall from a very high place to a very
low place, and it's something that a lot of families,
a lot of individuals are contemplating. In Australia. We are
in the grip of a severe epidemic effort. If you
have seen yourself in the story we've told, I want
you to look in the description on this podcast. You'll
see some lines from the places you can get help.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Do it.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Don't miss out because your life is your life. Don't
let it be destroyed by your addiction. Face up to
what you're doing and try to make amends because take
it from Ed, five years in jail is a hard
way to learn those lessons. This has been a real
crime with Adam Shanned. Thank you for listening.
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm your host
Adam Shand. Australia is the gambling capital of the world
by a huge margin. Daylight is second.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Australians lose more money gambling than anyone.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Else on Earth.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Our turnover is greater than the GDP of all but
fifty countries of the world, and the losses are just
as staggering.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
In the twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three period,
Australian has lost approximately thirty two billion dollars to gambling and.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We have an epidemic of gambling related crime. Some of
the crimes are ingenious, but most have a compulsive, pathological
nature to them. Whenever I see a story where someone
has stolen from their employers, family, or friends, I look
for the gambling link. Gambling has always driven crime. Many
of our most notorious crooks were also huge punters. But
(01:06):
the people I'm seeing go through the courts today are
not career criminals, but people feeding an addiction. Ed Toller
stole one point seven million from people who believe he
was a financial advisor who could invest their money wisely.
In total, he swindled one million seven hundred and forty
four thousand, two hundred and twenty dollars from fourteen elderly
(01:28):
and unsophisticated investors, but instead he spent it on backing
horses and living a fantasy lifestyle. He promised to invest
the money instead, He's accused of gambling it away on
horses and sports, but reality eventually came calling, and in
twenty eighteen, Ed was sentenced to eight years in jail,
and he served five. He's free again, rebuilding his life,
(01:53):
and he now shares the story of his fall from
grace and what it offers others in the grip of
a gambling addiction. And I'm really pleased to welcome Ed
to the Real Crime Studio.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, Ed, oh good, I Adam, thanks thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
How do you reflect on what happened to you and
your journey to this moment?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean you.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Touched on a couple of things during that intro, and
gambling and the money that I took and the eventual
consequence of it. I guess you know, they all happened
so far apart, but ultimately the downfall, if you like,
or the end result was I guess an inevitability. And
you know, I probably could have seen it coming twenty
years ago, but chose to.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I guess it's not that I.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Chose to ignore it, but I certainly chose to avoid
thinking about it because I could see that gambling was
a real problem for me, but I wasn't willing to
admit that early on in the piece.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
You were born in England, and I think you all
gambling began there, in horse racing and so forth.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean, I've been involved and tied in with
horse racing for a big part of my life through
one way or another. You know, I had some family
ties within the industry. I loved it.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I still do. I'm enamored with the sport. I think
it's something that, unfortunately.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
You either really like it and take a really good
interest in it or it's just never for you. And
I think unfortunately I was one of those people where
it got me early on. And it wasn't initially about
the gambling. It was more about the theater of the
sport and what it offered. But as my opportunities within
the industry sort of dimmed, I found that gambling was
(03:30):
one that was always there and I could always utilize
and I could always rely on and I guess I
was under the impression that I could make a living
out of gambling on horse racing and other sports, and
how wrong I could be.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, what was the path then, because I believe you're
involved in racing back in England and I think you
were warned off tracks for a couple of years there.
There was a story about tips and jockeys and so forth,
and you were caught up in that, and I guess
your livelihood was curtailed then. I think you called it
a toxic lifestyle you're involved with. You come to Australia,
(04:05):
What was your plan?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, so look, I'll touch on that briefly.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Look, I think when I got warned off from tracks
in the UK for twelve months, that was a real
shock to the system.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
You know, I let a lot of people down.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And I never saw myself in that position before that happened,
and I never believed that that would happen. But yeah,
ultimately I was very naive in the situation to think
that I was going to exploit a.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Loophole that wasn't a loophole. Australia.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
The move, it was all about a change of scenery,
a fresh start, you know, a culture change. And you know,
little did I know that landing here, I was landing
in the gambling capital of the world, which.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You know it certainly isn't.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
After a week, I went into a pub and it
had a bookies in the corner, and I thought, all
my dreams have come true, so to speak. It's like,
it's that easy. And it was alarming, but not in
a bad way. Initially, for someone that loves gambling and
someone that loves that the combined lifestyle, the drinking and
the gambling and all of that other stuff that goes
(05:07):
with it, I thought it was great. You know, I thought,
this is just ideal. I can do it guilt free,
and you know, nothing will ever happen. But it all
unfolded pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Because you were a student of the form you would
have backed yourself to be able to make good decisions
and to make a living, because that's what you've done previously.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
When did it all start to go wrong?
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I mean, you know, I could always pick a winner,
always never had a problem studying the formula of something
I was obviously quite good at.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I could find winners. You know, I had.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Access to information that others might not, so I had
an edge, But the problem was I couldn't stop because
I did it compulsively. As any other gambling addict or
person who doesn't gamble will understand, if you can't stop
doing something, eventually it's not going to work for you.
And I think it began to unfold in two thousand
and fourteen and I had a business. I had a
(06:06):
couple of clients that I could see avenues where I
could utilize their funds to try and make more money
for myself. So I started doing that, but I wasn't
doing it consciously, and I knew what I was doing,
and I was in a bad place mentally and physically.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And I wasn't making right decisions.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
And to think that I landed here in twenty twelve,
and by twenty seventeen, I was in jail for five years.
It's such a small period of time for someone's life
to unravel the way it did, but ultimately it probably
didn't start unraveling until twenty fourteen, and between that time
and the time that I got arrested, it's a three
(06:45):
year gap where everything just went boom.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Because people rarely set out with the intention to steal
to gamble, but it's sometimes let's use the money to
chase my losses and I'll get out ahead of back
in the black, as it were. But often it doesn't
go that way. I think it's very common story.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, Like I never ever intended to take one dollar
of any of the client's money, the truth be known.
What happened was I was running an arbitrage scheme that
went barely up because of my gambling habit, and I
decided to leave a bit live rather than trade out
(07:26):
of it. And it was for a couple of hundred
thousand dollars and I didn't have the necessary funds to
replace it, so I had to make a call, and
I made a call to another client and I fulfilled
the investment, and then I used that money to gamble
to chase the other money back. And it was a
domino effect that kept going.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Until it stopped, you know, until it became too much,
until people realized that they probably.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Weren't going to see their money again.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
And unfortunately I wasn't in a position to return that
money because I gambled it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Because I think a lot of people see this situation
as like a moral failing, but I think it's a pathological,
compulsive situation. And I think when you see what happens
to people in their day to day as they're in
the grip of this sort of gambling bag, it is horrific.
Tell us what an average day was like for you
(08:21):
as you're chasing your losses.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
What would you do?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yeah, I think for me, when I was gambling at
that sort of level, you know, I might be having
two or three hundred bets a day.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You know what I find probably.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
More soul destroying about it is that, you know I
wouldn't start off. I would start off under the notion
that I'm just going to have a couple of bets today.
You know, I used to say to myself that I
didn't like to win early because if I won early,
I wouldn't stop.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I would run out of money by the end of
the day.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Because I think I can win time after time, So
if I win too early, it's no good. But you know,
my typical day would be that I'd get up, I'd
study the form, I'd start betting at lunchtime, and you know,
I might still be betting on greyhound's highness and horses
until the middle of the night.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You know, of all the betting accounts I ever had.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
There was only one time from one company did an
individual who worked for them say, are you okay? Like
you know, you know, you've had like three hundred bets
today or in the last week, You've had this money
number of bets. And I genuinely respect that guy even
looking back, because he wasn't the way that their company
was set up. They didn't make direct money out of
(09:35):
me on how much I punted, It didn't matter to them.
It was more a case of I was just a
valuable client to them for many different reasons. But he
showed true compassion on a couple of occasions. So I
don't want to tie them all with the same brush.
But you know, that was one account out of twenty,
(09:55):
and I lost a lot of money through a lot
of different accounts. You know, obviously the money that we're
talking is one point seven million that was stolen, but
the true reality of that that was probably turnover of
you know, anywhere between three and four So you know,
there's a lot of money that's gone over time there.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Because you did know the forms, there must have been
good days where you're actually winning. Were there moments where
you think, well, if I get far enough ahead I
can stop this.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I mean there was times where I won a lot
of money, and you know, I would use some of
it to function life, like you know, paying my rent.
Because people think, you know, a lot of what was
written in the press is ah, he lived this big,
lavish lifestyle, he lived in this place, but the true
reality is of it. I was with Telstra and I
could get the records. My phone got cut off every
(10:44):
second month because I wasn't paying one hundred and eighty.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Dollars a month telephone bill.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
So you know, as much as it's looked upon that
I was living lavishly, I was living day to day
hand to mouth because all the money that I had
was going towards gambling on the whole. And you know,
there would be times I'd always as a compulsive gambler,
I'm always under the impression that I can dig myself
out of any hole, because along with being a compulsive gambler,
(11:10):
I was a compulsive liar. And I learned how to
lie to protect myself and to enable myself to be
able to do these things.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And you know, I look back at that now and
I'm ashamed.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Of some of the behavior that I portrayed, but it
wasn't a true reflection of me.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And I know that.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
And there's going to be people that will say that's bollocks,
and there'll be people that will say good on for
turning it around. But the reality is, I know in
myself that that wasn't a true reflection my personality and
my character. But when this thing gets you, it doesn't
stop until it takes everything from you. And they talk
about rock bottoms, and everyone's got a different one, and yeah,
(11:53):
it can come in any shape.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Or size, because what you say is correct, because every
gambler that I've spoken to, or compulsive behaviors, even drugs
and so forth, there's a gap between a person's values
and where they found themselves, and they live in this
limbo in between, which was full of anxiety, shame, and guilt,
which often prevents them from stopping, and they lose themselves
(12:18):
in that. You talk about a rock bottom, What was
your personal rock bottom?
Speaker 4 (12:23):
It's funny because I thought I had plenty before jail,
and then I went there, and I think ultimately that
was definitely. Like I remember sitting in the court when
I got sentenced, and I was so angry that I'd
been sentenced for so long. I got such a high,
big sentence. I was fuming, and I remember leaning over
to my solicter saying to him, you got to lodge
(12:46):
an appeal, like that's ridiculous. But I remember going back
because I've already had ten eleven months in jail by
this time. When I got sentenced, I didn't get any bail.
I remember going back to the jail that night and
just sitting there and reflecting on it and just thinking,
you know what, this is probably a good thing.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Ultimately, this is probably what I need.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Because the judge didn't spare you.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
He gave you a good bollocking, a good dressing down
in his remarks, and he talked about the people that
you had stolen from their elderly people, in some cases retirees,
putting their life savings into things, and there was seemed
to be a very high moral culpability that he wanted
to communicate to you.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Did you feel that way.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and look, ultimately, with the
benefit of hindsight, now I think it was probably the
right sentence, and I think that it was a just
outcome for the crime that I committed.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You know, I don't hide behind the fact that I
was a gambler.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
But what I did was the wrong thing, and it's
by law, it's a punishable offense by a criminal court,
and I deserved what I got in my opinion. You know,
I speak to people all the time and through gambling
arenas or whatever it is, and they all say, oh,
you know, that.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Sentence was ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
But ultimately, you know, I turned people's lives upside down
with what I did.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You know, that's something that I've got to live with,
but they've also got to live with it.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
So you know, there is a moral accountability that's attached
to that, and you know, I need to be held
accountable for what I did, and I feel.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Like I was.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
You know. At the same time, the people who are
probably along with you for the ride, enjoying that high
lifestyle that you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in
the jail cell on your own and you realize you're
sort of friendless, and that must be a very difficult
moment personally, and you're taking stock of your own personality
(14:39):
and your own choices. That's a moment most people don't face.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
What's that like?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought
that they would have been quite close friends. And I
wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do
would ever deter them from having a friendship with me.
But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty
percent of the people that I was with prior to
going to jail I no longer am. And there was
(15:09):
definitely a sense of anger at first. But you know,
I've had a lot of time to reflect on that stuff,
obviously from where I was, and I think that to me,
that's a bonus now to live life without those people
and to not have them within my circle, if you like,
because I think certainly it's not that i'd believe that
(15:29):
they're guilty by association, but certainly they're around when there
was all the trimmings of what comes with being a
gambler who wants to spend his money on all sorts
of different things, you know, and there were people that
would take advantage of that situation, and you know, they're
no longer around. And to me, do I look back
on that and think where are they now?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
No?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Not really, because I think that they're probably doing it
to someone else, or they're probably living a life that
you know, maybe they regret some of it as well,
i'd hope.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Well, I'm sure in the Eastern Cumbers of Sydney where
I also grew up as well, and I understand the
tribe of people that attach themselves to you, and you
can back it in that they would have attached themselves
to somebody else the next hot thing, and it is
a soulless experience and friendships are very tenuous. In jail,
you met a different class of people. You went to
(16:25):
a private school in England, well educated, you know, here
you're meeting people with no chance in life who were
in there and this is going to be their life career. Criminals,
people have made some really dumb mistake. How did that
impact you and give you, I guess a sense of
what you'd squandered in a way.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Yeah, I mean, jail here is really eye opening. Obviously
you touched on the fact that I lived in the
Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, which
is very sheltered and very privileged and very out of
the I'd almost call.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
It far removed from reality in a hones Stone.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
And when I went in there, you know, I went
to a number of different jails within New South Wales,
but I met so many people that have literally had
the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. They've had
no chance since the day that they were born. They've
had domestic violence, they've had drug use, they've had alcohol, gambling,
(17:27):
and they've grown up knowing only one route really, if
you like, Whereas I didn't, I grew up knowing that
crime was bad and that I shouldn't do it, and
if I do it, you know, this is what the
punishment will be. And I feel like there's so much unknown,
you know, there's this like people are obsessed with crime
shows and documentaries around crime and what it is and
(17:49):
who commits it and.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Murder shows and all this whatever else.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
But the reality is that the people who are committing
day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep
returning in and out of.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
The system year in, year out.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out
here because there's no need for it, you know, there's
no need for people to hear about it. But I
think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I
write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read,
you know, wanted to translate a message across to a
judge when they were going in for you know, some
form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write
(18:25):
something to the judge, not letting him or her know
why they should show leniency. And I think there was
I guess I was just living in this bubble where
I had no idea of what real society had or
was going on. And I think that you know, probably
for me, that was a big wake up call.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well it was.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I guess it was a humbling moment where you could
look at your life to that point and what it
could be from here on in. And I mean five
years in jail is no joke, and it's about punishment,
but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. And you're there
a gambling addict. You can still gamble in jail if
you want to. There's always ways to do that. But
(19:07):
was there any semblance of anything, a program, a person,
a moment where you could confront your gambling and start
to make a plan about what would happen after jail.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
I mean, they ran a couple of things when you
go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you
a load of questions and they say, are you addicted
to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they
ask you whether it's alcohol, drugs. You have to nominate
gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with,
and I did, but I think it took like two
(19:38):
and a half years before I got into a program
to address anything around addiction. And they do this thing
called Equip's Addiction, which is run by a programs officer
in the jail.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I mean it's better than nothing.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
But to me, it was verging on a waste of time,
you know, And a lot of people have to do it.
They make people do it in order to get certain
classifications and potentially even get parole or you know, whatever
it may be. So as a compulsive gambler or an alcoholic,
you have to sort of volunteer the fact that you
want to give it up, because otherwise it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
You have to be willing to admit that it's a problem.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Whereas this is kind of forced upon people who have
said at a screening question that they might have drunk
too much or taken drugs from time to time. So
really that was the only thing that was offered. And
gambling's rife in jail in Australia, Like it's everywhere. I
gambled in jail a lot. What would you gamble on
(20:37):
the footy, the NRL horses anything, play poker, play cards.
You probably gamble more in there than you would on
the outside, to be fair. It's just that you've got
to pay whoever it is within the system, you know,
or you've got to gamble against one of your fellow
inmates rather than an app or a bookie.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Which can be dangerous and frightening. In jail is certainly
both those things, but it's also incredibly boring too, and
you've got to pass the time somehow. You're facing this
five year stretch. How you're feeling each day.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Well, I went in there very heavy and chubby and
bloated and a mess from all the drink and the
drugs and the bad food and the gambling. So I
pretty much said to myself that I definitely wanted to
fix that up. So that was one of the first
things that I did, was fitness and got myself in
better shape. But I mean, you can only do that
(21:33):
to some form of level. It depends what jail you're in,
but you know, you're locked in a cell a lot
of the time. It might be from three pm until
eight am the next day, so.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
You're very limited in what you can do.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
You're very limited in what you can eat, what you
get access to you know, you have a certain number
of TV channels, whatever. But I think that you've got
to be able to reflect when you're in there, because
that's a lot of your time is going to be
spent doing that, you know, especially when you're doing a
long stretch, because effectively there is nothing else to do.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
You know, you can read. I wanted to study when
I was in there. I wasn't allowed to.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
That was a big bummer for me because early on
in the thing, I've really expressed an interest in looking
into doing a psychology degree, but there was no assistance. Yeah,
it was just very They made it harder to do
it than not to do it, which, yeah, it's just
I think that's a reflection of the system itself.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well, the system is there to punish you primarily, and
that's always been the notion of jail. If you can
make it a little bit harder than people liked them
that that's part of the whole ethos of jail. But
as you say, you get that time to reflect, and
I guess people can have these demoscene conversions, like bold moments, epiphanies,
all that type of stuff. But it's not like that,
(22:50):
is it. It's a gradual coming back to yourself and
closing that gap between what you'd become and who you
really were.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Well, a lot of.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
People love going to jail because they make money in there,
or it's an opportunity for them. You learn from the
best in there if you want to become a career criminal.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
So there's two aspects of it.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
You can either go in there under the notion that
you really want to sort yourself out and get something
from it, make it a worthwhile exercise, or you're going
in there and you come out worse than you went in.
And I think that's a part of the reason that
we see the reoffending rates and the returns into the
system is because of the lack of stability, or lack
(23:31):
of programs, or lack of help that there is within
that system. So you really have to be quite a
strong character, I think, to overcome that whilst in there.
And actually try and do something with your times, especially
because I understand the people that are in and out
doing six month stretches, there's not enough time for them
to do a program or a business degree or whatever
it may be. But then the ones that are in
(23:53):
there longer term, you know, you pretty soon in you
know that you're looking at a decent sentence. You want
to try and put some things in place where you're
going to get something from that.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
And that was my notion.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
And I knew the punishment fitted the crime, and so
I knew that it was about me being punished, and
you know, that meant going from jail to jail, and
that meant waiting a certain period of time to get
certain things. But I was a bit unlucky because obviously
COVID hit when I was in jail, and that diminished
any chance of any work release or early release or.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Anything like that.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
So that was all removed from me, which is a
normal aspect of prison for most people these days.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
With a decent sized sentence.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
That you will get the opportunity to go out to
the community prior to your release and either work or
you'll get day release or weekend release, and all of
that was removed through COVID, So you know, I took
a few knocks on the way, and then eventually when
I got out, I knew I just had to make
some changes in life.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Because you went in at thirty four, a good time, Charlie,
having a great time of it. You hit the sober
reality of Porridge in jail, and you come out nearing forty.
The world has changed completely. You're hoping to make changes yourself,
but when you walk out, you see there's a gambling
opportunity on every corner. It's in your phone, it is everywhere.
(25:15):
How did you confront the hard moment of giving up
your gambling addiction.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Yeah, I was really fortunate that when I came out,
I met someone. That person was in a twelve step
recovery and recommended that I go to a meeting of
gamblers anonymous, and I went to a meeting, and if
I'm honest, the first.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
One didn't really rock my boat. I wasn't taken with it.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
And I gambled again for a month or two and
you know, nothing drastic, but I didn't enjoy it. I
didn't enjoy the gambling like I felt this sense of chasing, chasing, chasing,
which I didn't enjoy, and I wasn't drinking.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So I was sober as well.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
So I started going to some more meetings and I
just I started to meet people that have gone through
what I was going through and hearing what they've gone
through and hearing that there was some form of solution,
and I just decided to give it my best shot.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And I haven't looked back since.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
And I think that ultimately there's success within unity and groups.
Like when you see someone else tread a path and
they're successful, you kind of want.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What they have.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
And I think that that's what I've probably got now
from that. And yeah, it's been a huge, huge help
to me. But like you say, advertising and gambling, advertising
and the fact that pubs and clubs and Pokeys and
every bookie under the sun can advertise, the reality is
that I don't think that's going anywhere. The Pokeyes aren't
(26:50):
going anywhere, the bookies aren't going anywhere. Horse racing, greyhounds,
it's not going anywhere. You know, the footy, the sport, whatever,
that's not leaving. So it's up to us as addicts
if you like to try and steer clar of it organically.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Without I disagree with it all the advertising lite.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I don't think it should be allowed to be put
in front of our children and kids and the youth
of today.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
But ultimately they seem to get away with it.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Nothing's being done on the Murphy recommendations, which is very sad.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know, we've just re elected.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Alban Easy and I don't really believe that he is
that interested in making any change to it, which is unfortunate. Again,
but I don't think that any of them were prior
to the election, if I'm honest, and I think that
a lot of them would use it as a potentially
a sounding board to try and get voters, but I
think ultimately there's too much money coming through it.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
So you've got to work out a.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Way where you can stay away from this without that
being reality. And I think that that's what I've had
to do, and I know plenty of other people that
do it, and I think that's, you know, the best
avenue to use at this stage.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Because governments have a massive conflict of interest in Australia.
As much as they'd like to promote responsible gambling messages
and so forth, it's inescapable that our budgets rely upon
gambling taxes and excise, and that industry relies for its
success on the two or three percent of problem gamblers
(28:20):
like you, So I can't see how it's ever going
to change. It's always up to the individuals such as
yourself to do that. And as you say, you're always
an addict, how do you guard against relapses? Because, like
I say, you walk out the door, you can be
hit with a dozen gambling messages before you get to
the corner.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And I think I mean for me personally, I just
do what I've been doing for the last three and
a half years, which is I'll concentrate on myself. You know,
I might try and talk to people wherever possible who
are going through the same scenario.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That I was.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I think that helping people is a huge part of
recovering oneself.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Look, I'm very in touch.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
With what they're doing in the UK at the moment
in terms of around gambling and the legislation, and they're
doing affordability checks and that's been a huge driver. If
someone had come to me when I was in the
midst of my gambling and said, how are you affording
to do this? I wouldn't have been able to prove
my income, and so that avenue of opportunity would have
(29:21):
been cut off to me. Now, I know there's black
markets and there's bookies, but it's small changes like that
that can possibly help just as much as relinquishing advertising
and things like that. But if you cut off avenues
for gamblers, it's more likely that they will seek options
where they could stop gambling. But if everything's open to you,
(29:44):
and you know, if you can steal money, or you
can take money from employers, or you can take money
from your parents, and you can gamble, Like if you're
a nineteen year old and you take twenty or thirty
grand off someone, no company's going to ask them where
they got that money from.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
They're going to take it.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And when I pick up the newspapers every day, almost
there's another story about a fraud, an embezzlement, straight out theft,
people stealing to gamble, and that also doesn't include the
amount of money that's stolen from families. It's never reported.
So you've had a chance to see the extent of
this problem. And I don't think it's getting any better.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
No, And I think.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
That you hit the nail on the head Gambling is
a disease, and the feeling that it gives you is
a drug. It's just the same as taking drugs. There
is a rush like no other when you're doing it,
and so for an addict, if he has to steal
money to do it or she has to steal money
to do it, they will do that, just like a
(30:44):
drug addict will take money to go and score drugs.
It's the same thing, but it's not universally recognized as.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
A problem, and that is the problem. The problem sits
within the problem.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
And yet when people come for sentencing, there is no
mitigation for a gambling addiction the way that you might
have for other forms of addiction, including drugs. You're getting
the highest possible sentence, and the media often portrays these
gambling criminals, if you like, as losers, as the exception,
(31:19):
the people who didn't have the moral fiber, couldn't take
the heat, didn't have the courage, whatever it is. So
while we have that attitude that stokes the problem with gambling,
in my opinion, that we're not addressing the fact that
you're not a career criminal.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
You never set out.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
To do this, but it was your addiction that drove
you in a place and I love the fact that
you're not ashamed to admit what you did and take responsibility.
But there needs to be, in my opinion, some mitigation
given to people like you and sentencing.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yeah, I mean, look, I had two guys I know
and have had a bit to do with in the
last couple of years, have both been sentenced for similar
crimes to mine, And when there were sentences, I was just, honestly,
I was fabergasted by the sentences that they received. I
was just I'm dumbfounded because their cases pointed towards the
gambling side of things, probably way more than minded. They
(32:13):
both received quite similar sentences to me, and I thought,
how can a judge honestly looking at the facts of
where this person spent their money and gambled their money.
How can he honestly sit there and say that this
is not a problem. I just can't get my head
around it. I cannot fathom how they can come to
that decision consciously.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
You know, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
You know, if someone was high on drugs and went
and robbed a house, there's mitigating factors there because they
wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Potentially in their right mind or in a sober state.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
So what's the difference seeing a gambler taking money from
his employer to gamble with or someone stealing who's high
on drugs.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
To me, there's no difference there whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Well, I totally agree. And one thing that I've noticed
about gamblers, I mean, I guess drug x as well,
is that it's very isolating. People spend all their time
feeding this addiction. One psychologist in Canada I've spoken, he
talks about feeding the baby tiger. At the beginning, it's fun,
it's cute, and it's novel, but it gets bigger and
bigger and bigger, and it takes up all your time
(33:19):
feeding this ravenous tiger. And by the end you've exhausted,
you isolated from your family, there's nowhere to go. And
often gamblers end up bankrupt, in jail or dead by
their own hand. And we're seeing an epidemic of male
suicides in this country, and I would hazard a guess
that quite a bit of it is related to these
(33:39):
sorts of issues.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think suicide is just at an
all time high around the world, but here in Australia.
I know, I was looking up some statistics of it
the other day just through pure interest, and I think
there was something like thirty eight hundred suicide deaths last year.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And I think I mentioned to.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
You that I really despise the way that the media
talk about suicide or they don't talk about it. If
someone commits suicide, you basically are playing a guessing game,
reading the article until the very bottom where it says
cool lifeline if you've found this disturbing, or if you've
know someone that's going through this. And I find that
this is about awareness. Unless people know about it, this
(34:23):
is where the problem is. And suicide is a byproduct
of someone losing all their money and finding no avenue
or being cornered into a situation that they can't get
out of, and so there's only one way out, and
it's the gates of prison or a mental asylum or death,
and death is brought about by suicide. And you know,
(34:44):
I've lost a family member through suicide. I also know
multiple people that have committed suicide, and it never gets
any easier to hear about it. But I do feel
like there's a major problem with people not willing to
talk about it and not willing to advertise the fact
that this has happened because of something. You know, I
(35:06):
lived near a notorious suicide spot in Sydney, and you know,
I see the cop cars coming up and down here
looking for bodies all the time. It never gets any
easier to see, but it just doesn't surprise me. And
I've bumped into people. I bumped into a guy back
in February. He was going to jump, and you know,
I sat there and chatted to him for about twenty
(35:26):
minutes and I called the police and it turned out
he tried to do it the previous two days as well,
and he'd been seen on some cameras and you know,
I never saw him again. But that's just another example of, like,
we don't know what people are going through behind closed doors,
but if they read an article that can help them
(35:46):
understand about some of these things, there's a good chance
that that might carry some weight.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Because you've been in that dark place between your own
perception of yourself and your values and what you've become
a lot of people find that reflection awful, and you
did some terrible things, you admitted to it. Did you
ever get to that dark place where ending it all
seemed a convenient way out.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Yeah, yep, you know, certainly the first couple of days
in Surrey Hill's lock up and I got arrested initially,
and then you know, after I got sentenced, I was like,
I've got so long to go. I don't know if
I really want to do this. I'm not going to
have anything when I get out. But my family, you know,
I hurt them so much, and that would have been
(36:32):
the icing on the cake to do that. And I,
you know, I owe my family everything because they stood
by me. They didn't have to, and I can assure
you I wouldn't have blamed them if they didn't.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
But ultimately, my relationship with them has never ever been better.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
And I look back and think of some of those
thoughts that I had when I was thinking about doing
the worst thing, and I'm just really grateful that I
came to my senses, because I told you the other day,
I lost a friend earlier this year to suicide, and
ultimately I wasn't that surprised by it. But also what
it leaves behind is absolute and utter carnage, and I
(37:14):
just don't believe that that's a good way to leave
a legacy.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
That's right and you're now in your early forties, you've
come out the other side of this.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
How does life look?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Because I reckon, he's still a young man, because like
I'm sixty two, so everyone's young in their forties. How
do you see the future from here that you may
not have been able to see before?
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Yeah, I consider myself still quite young because I'm an
immature baby, if you like, who's only just started working
out how to live life properly on the right side
of life. I guess you know. I lead a very
simple life these days. I have a very beautiful partner
who understands and respects a lot of what I've been
(37:56):
through and a lot of what I've done.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
And yeah, I lead a very healthy lifestyle. I don't drink,
I don't.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Gamble anymore, and I've started to appreciate life for what
it is. I mean, I came to Australia and I
did the opposite of what the real culture is here,
especially where I live, which is fitness and good eating
and all that sort of stuff. I did the opposite
of that for the first five years that I was here,
and so now I'm out the backside of it and
(38:23):
doing I guess what a lot of other people in
this area would do and stay fit, and I think
I'm about to come to the end of my sentence
in totality, So I'm looking forward to that because my
travel's obviously been limited because of it. You know, I
haven't been able to see my family as much as
i'd want to. So a lot of that is things
that I'm looking forward to doing and that life's about
(38:45):
to hopefully afford me.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Sure, unlucky in gambling, lucky in life. Ultimately, it's an
amazing story. And I'm sure there are people listening here
right now who are confronting exactly the same issues that
you confronted, and they're doing it in silence. They're doing
it and they're concealing things, they're contemplating how to feed
the gambling addiction. What would be your message if you
(39:10):
could speak straight to their hearts.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
I think I'd just say, look, I think twice, because
whatever you do now, you won't be able to take back.
And I can assure you that the other side is
not where you want to be. And I think that
you know, if it's gambling that's an issue, there's avenues
of help. There's plenty of avenues you know, pick up
(39:34):
the phone.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And I don't think there's enough of this.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
I know that us as blokes, especially like we never
talk about our problems with each other. And you know,
I know there's a number of mental health charities that
are very helpful and I really am a massive advocate
for that because I've seen the power of one person
picking up the phone to another work on so many
different occasions that I would just say, before you're going
(39:59):
to do anything's really stupid, pick up the phone first
and speak to someone, and if.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
You still want to go and do it after that,
you know, we can't stop you.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
But you know, I think if it's going to be
the wrong thing that you're going to do, live with
the consequences of what you're going to do, because they
will come. You know, we don't go through life with
no consequences. Eventually it catches up with us. And you
know it did for me.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
It was the making of me, but that might not
be the case for everyone.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Ed. I really appreciate you sharing your story today. It's
taken a fee bit of courage and also some courage
to admit your mistakes and move beyond them.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
I wish you all the success in life. Thank you
so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Thanks Adam, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
And yeah, I was really overjoyed to be coming on this,
so thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
That was Ed Toller. He's learned a very hard lesson.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
They fall from a very high place to a very
low place, and it's something that a lot of families,
a lot of individuals are contemplating. In Australia. We are
in the grip of a severe epidemic effort. If you
have seen yourself in the story we've told, I want
you to look in the description on this podcast. You'll
see some lines from the places you can get help.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Do it.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Don't miss out because your life is your life. Don't
let it be destroyed by your addiction. Face up to
what you're doing and try to make amends because take
it from Ed, five years in jail is a hard
way to learn those lessons. This has been a real
crime with Adam Shanned. Thank you for listening.
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