October 5, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of Real Crime with Adam Shand, we sit down with former Victoria Police inspector Pat Boyle, one of Australia’s foremost experts on street gangs. Nearly two decades ago, Boyle warned of the rising tide of youth gang culture in Melbourne — a problem many dismissed at the time. Drawing on his frontline experience, international research and a groundbreaking master’s thesis, Boyle reveals how denial, political correctness, and under-resourcing left police ill-equipped to deal with the violent gang landscape we face today.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
Adam Shand. For a long time, there's a been a
perception that youth is out of control. You can find
graffiti on the walls of Pompeii from five hundred BC
bemoaning the lack of respect from young men about society's
norms and engaging in what we might call gang culture. Today,
these days, we have a pervading sense of crisis about
(00:36):
youth crime, shoplifting, ram raids, home invasions, and gang crime.
Almost daily, we have stories in the news of violent
confrontations between machete wielding gangs in the streets and shopping centers.
Seventeen ages have been charged with murder after stabbing deaths
of two boys in Melbourne. Young men breaking you to
(00:58):
homes to steal vehicles and lead the police on wild
and dangerous pursuits.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
So gunman is on the run this morning after daylight
execution style shooting of a twenty one year old man.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
We have a court system that ours on the side
of bail. Too often. We have repeat offenders whose lines
are destined to be lived in jails. What's the answer?
Former Victoria policeman Pat Boyle warned about the rising tide
of gang culture in Victoria almost twenty years ago. As
a cop specializing in street gangs, he could see the
(01:31):
future we're living today. He wrote a master's thesis, the
first ever undertaken in Australia, which set out the problem.
Did they listen to him? I'll let Pat answer that.
Welcome to real crime, Pat.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Thanks Adam, and thanks for the introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Absolutely pleasure. Great career puts you on the cold face
of these sort of issues. When did you first start
to see what we now call a gang problem emerging
in Victoria in two.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thousand and three? Was the first time I saw a
rising concern. I was seeing things happening that weren't the
norm in Victoria. And basically at the time, I was
inspector in charge of the Ation squad and I was
seeing escalation in violence Asian on Asian situation, usually Vietnamese
and a triple shooting in Chinatown and what started my interest.
(02:23):
So I got a call out to that event and
then from there I saw three more incidents, drive by
shootings at restaurants, gangs meeting to have a fight and
basically finding a location and then deciding to move away
from that location, and then the gang then followed each
other to another location, and one guy popped out of
(02:43):
the roof of the sun roof and started shooting at
the gang behind him. So it was just something that
wasn't the norm for us, and so I started creating interest,
and so I started looking into gang behavior, and it
all sort of moved from there. I undertook a Churchill
fellowship and went overseas and looked at the problems in
(03:05):
the UK and Hong Kong and New York and Canada
for three months and came back, and then I decided
to take it even further and undertake a master's degree.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, I'm surprised to hear you say that this gang
problem was only apparent in the early two thousands. I
think Victoria has done a roaring trading gangs going back
to Squezy Taylor and the Painters and Doggars and all
kinds of gangs we've seen. But what makes what you
were seeing in this period more distinctive than what we've
seen before the organized crime of Victoria.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
The extreme violence was probably the difference. Obviously, back in
those days that you mentioned that gangs were present but
it was a different situation then. You know, a lot
of that situation was more organized crime. This situation isn't that.
It's spontaneous incidents or opportunistic in a number of cases,
or sometimes planned as well. You know, but the fear
(04:01):
factor is the big thing at the moment, and the rapid,
rapid rise. It's just escalated so fast.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, because we've seen people describe the concerns about gangs
as being a moral panic. That was probably a few
years ago. Now we're seeing it writ large on the
streets where it is a serious problem. It's gone well
beyond the moral panic. What could you see coming in
those years that really made you focus on studying this
problem as it was emerging.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well, the reason I undertook the study is because lack
of knowledge and then lack of ability for a response,
and also denial by command at that stage too, you know,
we didn't have gangs. We had use who were causing trouble,
so to speak, groups and that gang word was a
bit of a dirty word that was used and they
(04:48):
didn't like it. But behind the scenes they agreed that
there was a gang, but there wasn't politically correct to
say that. But in time, it got to the stage
where well you've really got no choice here, and then
you've got me in the background saying well, we've got
this situation. With a change of command, it went from
Christine Nixon to ken Lay, and ken Lay he knew
(05:11):
me very well and approached me and says, you know,
what is the situation? He started changing things. Obviously, in
between that, with Simon Overland, it's another story again, he
didn't show any interest either. We formed a gang task
Force within the Asian Squad in response to that triple
shooting because I note I saw that there was a problem,
met with command at the time and they decided that
(05:33):
I was right, let's look at this situation. We had
a task force running for about a year and that
task force agreed that there was a gang problem. We're
looking specifically at Asian crime at the time, and out
of that came nothing. A really good report said we
had a problem. My recommendations, and one of those recommendations
was to increase my crew by one by sergeant and
(05:56):
three to specialize and keep working on gangs because you've
started something and now you've identified it, so you need
to keep searching.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
And that was not back knocked back.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, it was noted back.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So all you were after was one unit of three
people and a sergeant.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
What would that have costed?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Oh jeez, well probably four and a grand I suppose
when I think about it, when you sort put all
the wages together in superannuation. But the point was that
we had a task force to establish whether we had
a gang problem, and then when you prove you have,
you then say you don't do anything about it because
you just walk away, which doesn't make sense to me
(06:37):
at all.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Because we did see various high ranking police officers stand
up in front of the media and say there are
no gangs in Victoria. You're right. It was political correctness,
and what their members were seeing on the streets was
very different. Yes, Why do you think that they were
so wrapped up in political correctness when you could see,
for instance, the overrepresentation in the crime stats of young
(07:00):
men in particular, and assaults specifically.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I really wish I could answer that. It seemed common
sense to say, you know, you're saying this to the public,
but the public can see that it's there, so why
would you deny that? And it was just avoidance of
using that word, even though they knew that that was
the situation. Look in some cases it wasn't a gang
at all. It was just a bunch of use that
(07:27):
were causing problems, you know. And unfortunately we use the
gang words too loosely, and I was very much pushing
for that too, that not to use it as strongly
as what it has been used by the press, and
so ensure through intelligence led policing that we've established this
as a gang and then say it's a gang. My
cycle gangs, you can identify them quite easily, and you
(07:50):
use the names of those particular gangs quite loosely as well,
because they've been around for so long. But with street gangs,
when you start naming names, you then cause influence and
you cause interest, and other kids then join that gang.
They gravitate towards it because it's the it's the flavor
of the month.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You are so right. I did my research. I should
have got a PhD for it. Going on the outloor
motorcycle clubs, and I called them clubs deliberately because in
the media it was all about outlaw motorcycle gangs, and
what I was seeing inside a couple of clubs like
the finx Hell's Angels. Was this media hype was making
these clubs more attractive. I was seeing a particular things.
(08:28):
There was a queue of people trying to join.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
There's a recruiting drive. That's what it is. And that's
why I got very nervous. Whenever the media used to
call me about particular gangs and who is it, I said,
I'll never tell you that, because you know, once it
gets the court, well well it would be discussed there.
But in between, you're actually providing kudos, and it's free advertising.
You can't pay for this. You couldn't pay for the
(08:52):
amount of publicity you get from what's seen in the
newspapers and on the news. In some new paper articles
us to show the lists of gangs across the across
the state and where they're located. Thinking, oh my god,
you just you can't pay for this.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
You really can't. I mean, I've read your thesis all
one hundred and ninety five pages. Some of it are
skin but one of the real things you zero in
on is the question of definition or description. Explain the
difference with.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
A definition you're locked in, and I'll give you sort
of an idea. Say, look, I always use a description
of say killer going back thirty years ago, is that
the same sat Kilda today? No, it's not. It's totally different.
It's trendy to be there. Yes, there are still problems,
as with any any suburb, and unfortunately some people gravitate
towards that suburb. But what it was, if we described
(09:45):
it thirty years ago and stuck with that definition, we'd
have a definition that's totally wrong and it's not what
it was. It's the same with gangs. Unfortunately, with a definition,
it actually locks you in. In the US, they have
definitions for gangs and that's then a legislative requirement, and
then sometimes that's doesn't necessarily match what the gang now
(10:08):
looks like in comparison to what the situation was before.
So it was easier to go with a descriptor, so
you can actually give an overview to say, well, this
is what you're seeing, this is what's possible it is,
and it's gravitating towards that. So it's basically a number
of academics have agreed with me in relation to what
(10:29):
I have to say, and there's other academics that went
along this line as well that said that descriptors are
a better way to go because times change and you're
locked into something, so you're.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Looking more at the behaviors and the anecdotes and the
lived reality rather than some sort of high fluding definition.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, because some definitions in the US locked in descriptors
and a name of the gang and clothing and tags
and all those sort of things. Now, you see a
lot of our kids, you know, the only thing that
we see with gangs now at the moment or this
gang behavior is they're all dressed in black. That's about it.
Whereas there is a uniformity in the US with types
(11:12):
of clothing that would wear. And in some cases these
gangs don't necessarily have a name that's sassarily as well,
you know, they're not necessary. They're shoying away from that
because that's an identity. It attracts police attention.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yes, you've got a couple of definitions or descriptors in
your thesis, which I think is sort of useful. I'll
run this one past you. A gang is a group
of recurrently associating individuals with identifiable leadership and internal organization,
identifying with or claiming control over territory in the community,
and engaging either individually or collectively in violent or other
forms of illegal behavior. Is that a useful one?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, it's good. But the one I came up with
is a street gang is a durable, street based group
whose members collectively exhibit unity and identity through their behavior
and criminal activity. So the other one's quite long windowed
minds two sentences. But then with that description, I then
make sure with my descriptor that each part of it
(12:12):
is broken down into durable, street based collective unity and
behavior and what those actually mean, so that people can't
construe their own theories about what I'm trying to say.
But the main part is a unity and criminal behavior,
and that's really what it's all about. But the unity
part of it is quite obvious. And the durability that's
(12:33):
another thing as well, because I say gang today, gone tomorrow.
So you've got a bunch of kids that are allegedly
a gang and then they just disappear. But it's got
to be over time. It can't be oh, they just
formed today and then suddenly the gang. They've got to
be some sort of history with that particular group that
say that they're gang. But I have this but only
as a guide to people a guide to the police
(12:56):
officers to make a decision about what they've got because
we have no legislation that makes an offense to be
in a gang.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Well, we've tried that areous states, These addy association laws,
mainly with the biker clubs. They really haven't worked. I mean,
we've driven them underground mostly. So I mean, is that
political policing again, people trying to quell a sense of
disorder in the community rather than actually solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, I suppose that's right. But we have that situation
here where we've tried to bring our own gang legislation
in to tackle omcgs, but unfortunately with our Human Rights Charter,
or I say unfortunately, I don't mean it that way,
but it has caused a problem for us that to
bring in some of the laws they say available in Queensland.
We've tried to bring them into Victoria, but the Human
(13:41):
Rights Charter won't allow it, and we've worked around it,
worked around and still haven't been able to address that.
So so of our powers aren't as strong as what
they should be, or what we'd like them to be.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
But can you legislate that sort of reaction? Because I've
seen most of those laws around the country get to
the High Court and they get knocked down, and often
the High Court justice says, well, listen, all the the
existing powers you need, you already have under the Crimes Act.
You should be going stronger on criminal proceeds type legislation.
You should do more about local policing. And I remember
(14:16):
one of the old coppers I know, Brian Francis Murphy,
he said, listen, with these biking gangs, all you need
is a local sergeant on a bicycle to go past
every week and work out what's going on. So I
think we have abdicated the streets to the gangs.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yes, right, Look, I think I remember quite some years
ago when I was in the Organized Crimes myself of
the inspector, sat down and had a chat and looked
at the overseas situation FMG situation, and we said, look,
you know, why don't we call them in and have
a chat and we're going to do a run between
one location to another. And we know everyone talked to
(14:54):
West Australia how they handle it and so on, but
no one's ever sat down and just have a chat
with them. And he looked at me and he said
that's not a bad idea. So we did that and
that's how it was started. Having that, having to chat
with them. They thought well, you know, they thought, well, geez,
something's going on here. Why are you calling us in anyway?
We sat from Danny said, oh, no one's ever sat
down with us before, and well it's a good start,
(15:16):
isn't it. And so you get sort of one they
know you're looking at them, and two, we just want
to sort out a problem here because you're going to
cause chaos. And that's when things have developed over time.
But you know, it hasn't addressed the problem totally. But
that's sometimes we just missed the point. We should just
sit down and talk to people and say, right, how look,
warn them, address it and say well you're on notice.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah. I think getting back to that difference between definition
and descriptives is particularly apt with the bikey clubs. Yes,
where my experience was going inside that there. It wasn't
a criminal unit per se. There were people who had
criminal records in there, but you had cells within the
club that was doing business with other clubs, even some
(16:02):
of their real rivals. For the business was being done
sell to sell rather than the clubs being the unit
of the crime, and that to me was a big
stumbling block to do anything meaningful.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yes, you're right, you're right, But as with anything of that,
it's for their identity to remain or to be ongoing.
Money is the factor, you know. They don't just have
club fees just like you have at a bowling club.
They have to survive, and obviously they do survive through
criminal activity. But as with anything, you know, the people
(16:39):
who join that are looking for a sense of friendship, family,
loyalty to themselves and to others. And what I find
though in time, if something goes astray, they get arrested,
caught up in some other activity. Well basically they're white,
so suddenly there's unity is there, But this unity is
suddenly gone. You know, Wait till you go into prison
(17:01):
and see how often they're coming to visit you, you know
that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It does vary from club to club, but I think
you're dead right. And I was seeing guys in there
whose decision to join was based around family breakdown, often
lack of a strong male role model, often domestic violence
against mothers. I had one guy who told me, you know,
mum was getting bashed by her husband for years until
one day at Christmas dinner he bashed her again. I
(17:27):
went out and got a shovel and bashed him over
the head. That was the last I saw of my family.
Then I went to jail and I met Bikey's, who
I felt were much more sturdy role models than what
I've been exposed to.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, well, he's looking for something and now he's found
an answer. And that's sometimes like his and or street
gangs are looking for that loose entity that needs somewhere
to go, and suddenly they throw their arms around them
and now they've got a new member in their group,
and now you're locked in. And the only way a
lot of the times they do leave, as in that
case is possibly meets a girl as a child. Besides,
(18:02):
I can't keep going like this. Or I did a
job in a side, Well, this sort of life is
going to interfere with the outcome of me having this job,
and so they then straight away and then there's repercussions
with that as well, because I don't know that so much.
With street gangs, it has happened in the US and
other locations are known about Victoria, but you know with omcgs,
(18:23):
it is a straight away. I think there's a bit
there's a bit of an issue there with them in
relation to initiated in initiated out so to speak.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Well, you're right. I think what's happened in recent years,
particularly in response to the media moral panic about this,
which as I said before, has elevated the status of
these clubs to criminal gangs. We've seen clubs recruiting muscle,
recruiting crooks from outside their normal recruiting area, from underworld groups,
and these people get drawn in, used and spat out
(18:53):
the other end. And I've met a few over the
years who have had a very sobering experience about how
that goes. It's all brotherhood and love and blood loyalty
until you're in the dock by yourself, that's right.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
They suddenly they disappear, And that's what happens with the kids. Basically,
they're looking for something that they haven't got. Sex, drugs,
rock and roll, you know, the whole bit. But the
main thing as they're looking for is some sort of
friendship and to be seen because they're not being seen otherwise.
And they join and then suddenly they're dragged into something
that maybe they didn't expect to happen in the first place,
(19:26):
that they didn't know. Well, I didn't know it was
going to go this far, and it's too late then,
and unfortunately then they go into the youth training system
and then they're never seen a game by the rest
of the game.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
That's true. Fortunately, the high level of dissatisfaction is an
advantage for police who in certain clubs have managed to
turn important members into giving evidence being informers.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Oh, that's definitely right, But the hard part is trying
to identify who those people are, you know. But yes,
as a prime way of doing it, obviously you're getting
the inside knowledge that you haven't you would have had before.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
How much did you gather from those sort of informers
when you were run the Asian Squad, for instance.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
The staff I had were really really unique in the
way they approached their work because our role of the
Asian Squad. It was formed by the Asian community for
the Asian community, because they were being extorted by their
own people, and it was not the norm for them
to come forward and speak to the police because of
the fear factor from when they were in Vietnam. But
(20:29):
they trusted us so over the years a squad existed
for twenty one years and unfortunately under the Major Crime
Review within Victoria Police it was dissolved. But it was
one of those units that had the primary role of
getting out into the community and meeting with them, going
to all those social events. But as a result of that,
(20:51):
we built up rapport and trust and so there would
be an example would be a stabbing and that victim
is in hospital. The police attend to talk to the victim.
The victim's not going to tell you anything. When we
come along, they identify us, they know us, they build
up trust and we warn them so we'll handle this.
(21:12):
We don't want revenge situation to him, the repercussions, and
as a result of that, it's just a slow buildup
of trust and then leave it with us. We will
fix it. But that's why a lot of times they
would only speak to members of the Asian Squad. And
on top of that, my guys knew everyone. There was
a murder in Collingwood Flats in the high rise towers there.
(21:36):
Charlie Bazina came to us with pictures of three entities
in the lift in the elevator and we just went bang, bang,
bang and He couldn't believe it, you know, he said, well,
who is that person? That person's this person and that
person there that we can't see, Well, he associates with
that person, so era be him, you know that sort
of stuff. It was just a really good rapport and
(21:56):
they would feel very safe coming to talk to us.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yes, that's Charlie Bizen, an ex homicide and a great
detective in his own right. Another great police officer, the
late great McK miller. And I'm sure you probably started
your career under Mick. He used to say that police
can only work with the assent of the community. When
you talk about getting communities on side, that's when you
get results and trust. That's kind of lacking these days.
(22:21):
From what I can see, it.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Seems to be that way. I don't know why, you know, obviously,
I've been retired about three years now, but I do
see on social media where officers veterans are talking to
each other about different things, and some of the common
things are is that these veterans, who you know, very
very vast experience, and here they're seeing crimes being committed
(22:44):
and actually reporting them. They're finding that the response to
those crimes by those officers to those walk up starts
for what of a better word, are none responsive and
they just start to understand, don't understand what's going on.
You know, you've got a cop, the most reliable witness
you could possibly haveving you a head start, and it
(23:06):
doesn't seem to be happening. And I mean that's not
in every case. It's not in every case, but it's
just sad that's being said sometimes. You know, I love
vic poll you know, it was my career for forty
six years. But yeah, there are there seems to be
some changes and I don't understand why. It's probably unfair
(23:26):
to some of those people that aren't like that, but
there it just seems to be some officers are seeing
crimes and giving place a help start and it's not
going anywhere.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, it must be frustrating to you. You're one of
the most well qualified gang experts in the country. You
were at the coal face, you were advising Victoria Police
and do you think they could have done better with
what we're seeing today had they adopted what you were saying?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I think so. I always said when I was talking
to any members of Commander, we've got an opportunity to
get it right, because in the and following on for
the UK, it's only grew and grew, and there were
ways to approach these things this rapid rise, but we
just didn't do it. We talked about it. They were
(24:19):
pushing me in twenty fifteen when I've just about finished
this thesis about my descriptor, you know, so they can
use that to gather intelligence and assess properly about what
the situation is. Is it a gang or isn't it
And that's never still hasn't been used. And you know,
along with that, in the back of my thesis, you'll
see there's a document there which is a descriptor for
(24:41):
police officers on the street, a little notebook so to speak,
so you have a flick and tick. It's a prompt
sheet and on the rear of that you can then
look at that the answers you've got against the descriptor
and say, well, possibly i've got a street gang here,
and then hand it into the sergeant and then you
gather the intelligence and work out, right, we've got to
target that particular group, or we've got to make sure
(25:02):
that we have the right people in place to talk
with these kids. And you know, social workers. That's another
issue as well, because the way it is at the
moment is that the police have given the job of
doing everything. You know, they're they're the social worker, mental
health expert, and law enforcement. And basically what should be
happening with these kids is that they're arrested, they handed
(25:24):
straight to a social worker. Not weeks later after when
it comes up for court and magistrate, kids said us,
so I was this kid being nessessed yet no, Oh,
there's a further delay and a further delay, And so
it should be along those lines. Les's twenty minute hour
where I were great friends. He always advocated for that.
That's the way that it should respond. There's a priest
(25:46):
in La father Greg Boyle, no relation, but he set
up Homeboy Industries. I visited him two or three times
in the US, and basically he had a situation where
he would bring the kids in and basically they were
looking for avenues of getting out of the gangs. But
who do I talk to? And obviously the priest along
with social workers, basically removing tattoos, giving them a job,
(26:09):
all that sort of stuff. You got to start somewhere.
And at the moment, it's just law enforcement responding and
I'll just add to that. In two thousand and three,
there was a woman by my name, Karen McCluskey, who
was a nurse in Glasgow and Glasgow had that point
that had the worst crime rate in Europe and it
was all based on street gangs and kids. The police there,
(26:33):
they brought her in to assess the situation and what
she saw. She was a nurse, pluster psychologist. She saw
that the police were doing their job but no one
else was. So all the social workers, mental health experts,
health department, all these agencies were not doing their job
and so she held them to account and so there
(26:53):
was pressure and pressure. Two years later, forty nine percent
drop in the crime rate based on what she was doing.
We invited her out here in twenty thirteen and she
spoke at a family violence conference about crime in Barsgow.
It was family violence plus violence as well on the street.
She spoke again in twenty thirteen and what do we
(27:16):
do about it? Nothing? Now, that was the response. I
even think Ross Gunther, retired Deputy Commissioner. He did an
article with John Sylvester. He talked about there should be
a summit getting together where all these groups who have
responsibilities to address this crime and work on it together.
(27:36):
And what happened. I think clinically he was told off
for approaching things that way. It was it was just crazy.
It's just crazy that we are left up to doing
the job when there were so many others have got
responsibility to do that. They're their part.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Pat, I can see how it pains you to criticize
your former employees. You invested your life in Victoria Police,
but you can love the organization and take issue with
decisions of individuals. Yes, and I think it's great that
you're speaking out now because we have this major problem.
These gangs are brave and getting braver. We're seeing gangs
organizing confrontations inside train stations, in shopping malls. They're running
(28:21):
around with machetes and things. It's quite terrifying for the public.
And it just seems that the police, not just in Victoria,
but in New South Wales as well, probably all across
the country, they're just reactive rather than trying to address
the issue its source.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes, it appears that way, and I look at the
other side of it too. Is obviously resources as well,
and I think the police now are sort of busier
than they've ever been running from job to job. You're
just like, it's just like being a clerk. You know,
I'm going to go to that job, go to that job,
and then some stage we'll try and work out how
to address that crime. But yes, it's not the way
(28:57):
to operate that you have to respond all the time.
We should be trying to address it before it happens,
and unfortunately it's just the way things are at the moment.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And the political response here from the Allen government of
Victoria when they've seen a machete attacks in the shopping
center is to ban the machete And I'm thinking, well,
Bunnings is full of murder weapons, but why don't they
have switched to something else.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, this is no different than selling spray cans under eighteen.
You know, you can't buy them. You know, it's a
similar thing. And unfortunately the government with this response and
with the bail laws, we had the strongest bail laws
and then under the Andrews government we got rid of them.
And now they say we brought in these new laws.
They were not new laws. They're the old ones, the
(29:42):
old ones that we already had. You just brought them
back in againsted off the paperwork and said ask you
here we go, here's your laws back. But they sort
of announced it like we're a bit of chessbirding, We're
out to fix this problem. But it was just a
revolving door for a lot of the kids. It was
just a joke.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, and you're seeing kids now, not just in Victoria,
across the country getting bail on bail on bail, they're
getting freed. There's an attitude which is probably waning now
that once you lock a kid up, you're now locking
him into a criminal future. Is that a fair comment?
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It's hard to say really. We mean, there's ways of
separating kids from other kids who are the problem, you know,
but that's a process within the youth justice system that
they've got to look at. But what seems to be
happening a lot of the time, you know, all these
people who are civil libertarians, which yes, they have their role,
but the point is they'll be expressing their opinion about something,
(30:37):
and if they actually looked at the facts and looked
at what how many kids are within the youth justice
system at the moment, There's not too many ten year
olds in there, but they keep harping on about we're
locking up all these really young kids. The ones that
they are remanding are ones that are a real risk
to the community. It's very very hard for a child
(30:57):
to be either remanded and or sentenced to a period
of imprisonment or custody. It's very very hard, and so
the ones that are in there, it's actually, well, we've
got no choice. We've got to protect society from these kids,
and we've got to then address the behavior of those
kids as well while they're in there, and how that
system works. I haven't got the experience there, but that's
(31:19):
where it's falling down. If they are then sentenced, well,
they've then got to be looked at and said, well,
how do we get this kid back to what he
or she was before they were arrested.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Well, I love also this term that we need to
rehabilitate these kids. You look at some of the backgrounds,
what they've been exposed to, family violence, all kinds of things.
You think they've never been habilitated.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
No, no, sure, that's what Karen McCluskey in her research,
she was finding some of these kids who were they
were in care at foster care, but where they were
located next door, a pedophile lived, or up the street
there was another organized crime figure. So these foster parents
were basically they were looking after this kid. The kid
(32:05):
was in the middle of a melting pot of crime
in that area. So there was all these little things
that they should have been looking at when they're all
factors about why kids get exposed to crime, or the
foster parents weren't that good anyway, you know, although in
it for was the money, but not to help the child.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, we're talking earlier about the fact that lost souls
find their way into gangs and motorcycle clubs and so forth,
because there's a feeling of safety and security, and I
think that's missing from our justice system. I'm old school.
I think back to when my parents used to say,
I'm going to send you off to a reform school
if you don't start to behave and work out at school.
(32:46):
And I have this, maybe it's a fantasy or a dream,
that we could have a mentoring system based on prison farms,
people getting out, not just being locked up, but actually
the continuing education, working with role models, working with animals
in particular. I think that's a very civilizing influence. So
I think My view is we have to actually look
at the punishment end to see if we can steer
(33:07):
people in a different direction.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, and like you said too, some of these kids
are the loose end and susceptible adjoining gangs. But some
of them they've got no choice because it's all part
of their family in the first place, and so it's
just hereditary one of a better word. It's going to
be a norm for them because that's where that's where
they live, that's what their family does, and that's what
(33:30):
we do.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah. One of the big issues I'm seeing is also
in the reporting of these events, particularly these aggravated burglaries
machete attacks, there's a reluctance to say what the ethnic
origin of these people are. We're shy of saying they're Africans.
And I know for a fact that a lot of
these issues are coming from Sudanese refugees, Somalians and other
in that region who've come from really war torn backgrounds,
(33:55):
and when the families get here, often the parents don't
assimilate very well. So this reluctance to describe again you
use that wordscribe the individuals prevents a proper discussion.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
It does it doesn't. It's obvious to the public because
what ethnicity these people were that committed these crimes, because
we were exposed to so much CCTV now than ever before,
whether it be fixed cameras or people's phones filming an event,
it's just the exposures there and basically straight on it's
(34:32):
on our news every night. We basically see crimes just
about live, you know, or shortly after the event. We're
seeing what's happening, and we look at them and go, well,
I know what possible ethnicity that person is because they're
so tall and thin. But in other cases we can't.
But yes, there's a reluctance there, but not as much
(34:52):
as it used to be. Go back some years ago.
It was just we'd never say anything at all, which
is ridiculous because how does the public help us when
we don't know what we're looking for, you know, or
every ethnicity looks the same. It's not like that at all.
But unfortunately, on the other side of it, too, is
that we're stignifying every person who's that race, which is
(35:15):
a sad situation because it's only a small percentage that
are causing a problem, whereas the greater community aren't they
here because they want to be here. They're trying to assimilate,
and unfortunately a small few are giving them a bad name.
And with the kids, it's basically what's happened is that
mum and dad have come from these wart on countries.
(35:36):
But when we say that now it's been probably thirty
years they've been here now already, you know, it doesn't
seem that long. But time flies, and the first group
are happy to be here. And yes, their child may
not have a mum or a dad or either, and
so they're bringing brought up by the auntie and uncle.
But it's not that auntie and uncle and that mum
(35:58):
or dad that are a problem. It's the kid later
who is the second or third generation that causes a
problem because they haven't got any identity. They're trying to
be the particular race that they are, but with other
kids at school who are not of the ethnicity, and
he's trying to assimilate with them, and they're lost. But
(36:20):
if a group of those lost kids get together, well
they're a family now, and then unfortunately, this is what happens.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
That's very true.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Having to look quite regularly across the US.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It has and this intergenerational trauma you're talking about. I
went to Rwanda after the genocide in ninety four is
just after it, and you told the stories. You saw
the evidence of hundreds of thousands of people being murdered
with machetes often and kids growing up with that memory
and their parents going through that, and you think this
cannot be a recipe for any kind of normality in
(36:52):
their lives. And we've seen the same thing in Southern Sudan,
We've seen it in other countries in East Africa, and
they're coming here and being dropped into our society without
much assistance. And there's probably another argument to hold another podcast,
but yeah, I think police trying to deal with that.
We go back to that question of assent and if
police are not able to build bridges with the community,
(37:14):
how on earth can you stop this?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
That's right, I mean that was one thing with the
Asian Squad. We understood the culture. We you know, you
take the shoes off when you go in the front door.
You know, you hand them your business card with two hands,
because that's your handing them your identity. I want you
to know me. But they're the things that the street
cup needs to know, so they can get off to
(37:36):
a good start with anything to show respect for those
particular groups. But these kids, that sort of approach wouldn't
work with them. It's only going to work with the
mum and dad. And unfortunately, the response now too seems
to be that Vic Pohle are out there addressing ethic
(37:57):
based crime, but these communities seem to think that that's
the only people we're targeting, which is totally wrong. And
unfortunately that shits you should happened recently in Footscray where
that person was shot. You know, the response to that
by the community was abhorrent. You know, to go out
there the next day and protesting and making assumptions about
something that they know nothing about, and just presuming that
(38:20):
that's what happened, That this person was fatally shot for
no reason at all. It's just crazy. And the outcome
of that it just looked really, really bad for the community.
They didn't do themselves any favors by what they did.
And you know, I look at that and say, oh,
this was a homeless person, Well where were you? Where
was the community helping that homeless person? If they keep
(38:43):
calling them that that they were harmless, well that person
wasn't harmless. He was a risk to those members and
a risk to the community. Yet I just I find
sometimes we're walking on a tightrope about how we respond.
Have the big pole responds to things I keep saying, well,
because I forget that I'm lot a company.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
In the blue family. You're always part of it. That's true,
but you're dead right, But you're also I mean, I
think there's an assumption that police can shoot and kill
people with abandon and I'm sure you've dealt with members
have had to be in that situation, and this does
leave a lasting impact, but it can also lead to
bitterness and rivalry and more incidence of violence.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Of course, the ken and it's just the fallout of
that as none of those members ever want to do that,
and that's the last thing in the world they want
to do. And there's all the flow on effect later,
you know, the mental trauma of what they did, the
scrutiny being held to account for what just happened. But
unfortunately the community responding the way they did, and even
(39:48):
one of the persons there there they are, they've got
an ankle bracelet on and they're assaulting the police, you know,
as part of that group. And you look at the
things that way, you could have done things a lot better.
You know, really, it doesn't help you at all.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's very sad, entrenches the bitterness and issues. But let's
talk about rights of passage. I think that's certainly part
of what I've observed in motorcycle clubs and street gangs,
and we're seeing now on the streets of our cities
this situation where people are doing aggravated burglaries, stealing cars,
(40:25):
going on the freeway and daring the police to chase them,
and that's seen as part of a right of passage
towards solidarity within a group of young offenders.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
It's crazy. I never lived through that. I've been involved
in New Rumorus car chases, but nothing like what I've
seen now. And I just wonder that these young people
seem to think they have nine lives. You know. It's
like watching a playing a video game where you know,
bang bang bang, I shoot. Next minute, Well, I've got
(40:56):
a second life and I can keep going. And it's
the same with the cars. They're ramming police cars, and
I don't know what they think is going to happen
as a result of ramming a police car that their
car going to keep going. You know, it just doesn't
make sense. And I sometimes look at things and go, well,
where do they think this is going to escalate to?
You know, what's the outcome that they think is going
(41:17):
to happen that they're just going to get away at
the moment, you know, the chopper is up there more
than it's ever been. It must be costing a fortune
to have it up in the air, but it's the
quickest response and the safest response to those sort of matters.
But it just seems to be a standard outcome steal
the car and get involved in the chase and ram
the police car. It just seems to be second nature. Now.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
I don't know why it really is. I was talking
to one two five one sergeant is on the night
shift mostly and he says this every night, almost in
the in certain times of the year. And I have
to say that some of the police don't mind the situation.
It's pretty exciting work, you know, with the chopper up
and you've got the you've got the canine unit there,
you've got the critical Incident Response team as well, and
often they catch these fellas. And he said to me,
(42:01):
he said, one day, this is all going to be over,
you know, because I think the old it outs there
is more technology to stop these cars without having to
use stop this. I mean, we see these stopsticks with
the spikes and barbs on them to stop these cars,
and I guess what they're saying is we want to
use these to catch cars at low speed, not fast.
(42:21):
But I think some sort of governors on these cars
would be a better technology to stop them.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Oh, it's like a lot of responses the theft of
motor cars. You put all the micro dots within the
engine bay area, all that sort of stuff to try
and identify cars back into the days of cars being
stolen for all the other purposes, being transported overseas and
things like that. But yes, in that case, it would
be a great way just to stop the vehicle. But
(42:46):
at the moment, it's just a it's a standard type
vehicle as well that they want to steal. It's not
your old hold in commodore. They want to they want
to mark, and they want to BMW and they want
to outy and they're planning where those cars are located
and breaking into those homes. When I say breaking, in
a lot of the times that they're leaving the doors open,
which is I don't know how many times you have
to tell people don't do that. I know, you want
(43:08):
to feel comfortable in your own home and live the
way you want to live. And unfortunately times are changed
and you you've got to lock your premise.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Well you're right, and also you've got you've got homes
where and this is the way they built these days,
townhouses with the expensive outer you park and the driveway
it's it's not enclosed, and the offenders know if they
kick the door in, they'll find the keys on the
hook inside and if they go the I don't know
why outer is. I mean, I've never found the very attractive,
but they're the ones people want to steal it.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Oh the AMG Mercedes, and you know it just seems
to be the case. But then they feel they're going
to outrun the police and then outrun the dog. There's
a prime answer too. You know that the new chief
is coming in. We's come from a police force where
there's one hundred and twenty dogs in their police force
and we'd probably got half that. And I look at
it and say, well, you know the fear factor. Wise,
(43:59):
you let a dog loose they're going to stop. They're
worth three or four cops to tell you the truth.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
They are, And you're right. Our new New Zealand Commission's
coming in they're going to have We've got fifty four
dogs in Victoria and they can't get enough of them.
They're valuable, valuable assets, and you're right. They do create
compliance in a way that the officers can't and it's safer.
Unfortunately that does put the dogs at risk, but certainly
safer for human members.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, that's right. But normally they hear the dog coming,
they'll throw themselves on the floor, you know, because they
don't want the outcome of being bitten.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
That's right. Listen, we've painted a terrible picture of doom
and gloom here. But I think what you probably found
in your research is that this youth gang culture, if
they don't get entrenched in the criminal system, there is
a point where they can change their hearts and change
their lives.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Well, of course there is. Yeah, there's definitely that. Not
only your cliche kids were born bad. You know, they've
been born into situations that they never had any control.
There are kids that you'll probably never change, unfortunately, but
there are kids that can be saved for sure. But
the biggest way to do that is basically get on
top of all these particular gangs and address who they are,
(45:12):
what they are, and target them appropriately. Sometimes we think
about gangs and we think, oh, we've got to go
get the hierarchy downwards. But a lot of street gangs
don't have a hierarchical structure. They're just the person who's
a leader might be the person a leader for a
day because they have a certain skill. They step up
and fight. They're the best fighter. Well, we'll use them.
(45:35):
He knows how to steal a car, or use him.
He knows how to break into house. He's the leader
for the day. They don't want to be led. That's
the biggest problem. They don't want So sometimes the way
you attack things that might be a bit different with
omcgs and other organized crime, but not street kids. You've
got to take up the whole group. You can't just
take a singular entities because it's not going to make
(45:56):
any difference.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Okay. In a parallel universe, Victoria Police comes back and says,
Patrick Boyle, you were right, we were wrong. I want
you to come back and set up a gang squad.
What would you do.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I think a lot of it. A lot of our
gang unit is basically all Melbourne based. It's within the
crime squads, but where the crime is happening is out
in the regions. So at a regional level, which they
are I'm doing that in Southern Metro they have a
group that's targeting gangs all the time and working on
that and that's where there has to be units within
(46:28):
regional locations who are trained and specialized in gang activity
to get out there but also to be involved with
all the social workers as well and understand and talk
to them and say, hey, you've got this kid, got
this kid, that got this kid and send them the information,
say hey you got to go. You've got to go
and visit that kid, because it's not our role to
be visiting kids. You know that kid needs help. But
(46:50):
at the moment, the gang unit we have, while they're
out there doing a great job, but they're responding. Whereas
the intelligence is out there in the regions and we
need units within there to be able to solely look
at this or from a local level and then feed
that information into a central area as well, and also
make sure that what we are gathering the intelligence wise
(47:12):
is based on a descriptor. This is what a gang is,
this is the one, this is the game we're going
to target. But at the moment, I don't know what
air intelligence looks like and who's making a decision about
what actually is a gang if we don't have a
descriptor to go by, so you're gathering in false information.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
How does the future look right now given the settings
we have in place.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Well, we're in a standstill, you know, we're not moving
forward or backward. We're responding all the time, and it's
just terrific to see it happening every night. But I
don't necessarily have all the answers at the moment because
you're sort of you know, you don't have all the
intelligence in front of you. All I'm seeing is what's
on TV. But I don't know what There's a big
difference to what you see on TV and what is
(47:55):
actually one our ability to address it and to a
true understanding of what is actually happening, I'm not exposed
to that anymore. I don't have the intelligence reports and
all that sort of stuff that you used to see
before and be able to make an assessment correct.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I've got a mantra knowledge, courage, action. You certainly took
that path in your research, and I can see a
very useful place for a summit as you've not just
in Victoria, across the country, because I think this is
a problem in every state, probably around the world actually,
So anyway, I really thank you for sharing your experiences
in your service and continuing to advocate on this very
(48:30):
difficult topic which is burdened by politics and lack of resources.
Expediency which was one of mc miller's favorite terms. When
there was a problem, expediency won the day, he would say,
and that's what's working now. Thank you so much for
your time today.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Pat, Yes, sir, now is Adam? Thanks for asking me.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
That's Pat Boyle, ex Victoria Police, one of our most
qualified specialists on street gangs. We are losing the war
right now, and it is a war for our streets.
We're losing our kids. I'd love to hear from listeners
out there who've had these experiences. What are the street
gangs in your area? What's going on? Are the police
walking the streets? Do they know who's actually out there?
(49:10):
We often see police officers driving around their suburbs now
with the windows up. They don't hear what's going on outside.
It's time they walk those streets again. But of course
massive resources issues there to address this has been real
crime with Adam Shann Thank you for listening. If you
have any information you want to share with me, email
me on Adam Shanned writer at gmail dot com, or
(49:31):
if you want to report a crime, crime Stoppers one
eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. Thanks for listening.
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
Adam Shand. For a long time, there's a been a
perception that youth is out of control. You can find
graffiti on the walls of Pompeii from five hundred BC
bemoaning the lack of respect from young men about society's
norms and engaging in what we might call gang culture. Today,
these days, we have a pervading sense of crisis about
(00:36):
youth crime, shoplifting, ram raids, home invasions, and gang crime.
Almost daily, we have stories in the news of violent
confrontations between machete wielding gangs in the streets and shopping centers.
Seventeen ages have been charged with murder after stabbing deaths
of two boys in Melbourne. Young men breaking you to
(00:58):
homes to steal vehicles and lead the police on wild
and dangerous pursuits.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
So gunman is on the run this morning after daylight
execution style shooting of a twenty one year old man.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
We have a court system that ours on the side
of bail. Too often. We have repeat offenders whose lines
are destined to be lived in jails. What's the answer?
Former Victoria policeman Pat Boyle warned about the rising tide
of gang culture in Victoria almost twenty years ago. As
a cop specializing in street gangs, he could see the
(01:31):
future we're living today. He wrote a master's thesis, the
first ever undertaken in Australia, which set out the problem.
Did they listen to him? I'll let Pat answer that.
Welcome to real crime, Pat.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Thanks Adam, and thanks for the introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Absolutely pleasure. Great career puts you on the cold face
of these sort of issues. When did you first start
to see what we now call a gang problem emerging
in Victoria in two.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thousand and three? Was the first time I saw a
rising concern. I was seeing things happening that weren't the
norm in Victoria. And basically at the time, I was
inspector in charge of the Ation squad and I was
seeing escalation in violence Asian on Asian situation, usually Vietnamese
and a triple shooting in Chinatown and what started my interest.
(02:23):
So I got a call out to that event and
then from there I saw three more incidents, drive by
shootings at restaurants, gangs meeting to have a fight and
basically finding a location and then deciding to move away
from that location, and then the gang then followed each
other to another location, and one guy popped out of
(02:43):
the roof of the sun roof and started shooting at
the gang behind him. So it was just something that
wasn't the norm for us, and so I started creating interest,
and so I started looking into gang behavior, and it
all sort of moved from there. I undertook a Churchill
fellowship and went overseas and looked at the problems in
(03:05):
the UK and Hong Kong and New York and Canada
for three months and came back, and then I decided
to take it even further and undertake a master's degree.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, I'm surprised to hear you say that this gang
problem was only apparent in the early two thousands. I
think Victoria has done a roaring trading gangs going back
to Squezy Taylor and the Painters and Doggars and all
kinds of gangs we've seen. But what makes what you
were seeing in this period more distinctive than what we've
seen before the organized crime of Victoria.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
The extreme violence was probably the difference. Obviously, back in
those days that you mentioned that gangs were present but
it was a different situation then. You know, a lot
of that situation was more organized crime. This situation isn't that.
It's spontaneous incidents or opportunistic in a number of cases,
or sometimes planned as well. You know, but the fear
(04:01):
factor is the big thing at the moment, and the rapid,
rapid rise. It's just escalated so fast.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, because we've seen people describe the concerns about gangs
as being a moral panic. That was probably a few
years ago. Now we're seeing it writ large on the
streets where it is a serious problem. It's gone well
beyond the moral panic. What could you see coming in
those years that really made you focus on studying this
problem as it was emerging.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well, the reason I undertook the study is because lack
of knowledge and then lack of ability for a response,
and also denial by command at that stage too, you know,
we didn't have gangs. We had use who were causing trouble,
so to speak, groups and that gang word was a
bit of a dirty word that was used and they
(04:48):
didn't like it. But behind the scenes they agreed that
there was a gang, but there wasn't politically correct to
say that. But in time, it got to the stage
where well you've really got no choice here, and then
you've got me in the background saying well, we've got
this situation. With a change of command, it went from
Christine Nixon to ken Lay, and ken Lay he knew
(05:11):
me very well and approached me and says, you know,
what is the situation? He started changing things. Obviously, in
between that, with Simon Overland, it's another story again, he
didn't show any interest either. We formed a gang task
Force within the Asian Squad in response to that triple
shooting because I note I saw that there was a problem,
met with command at the time and they decided that
(05:33):
I was right, let's look at this situation. We had
a task force running for about a year and that
task force agreed that there was a gang problem. We're
looking specifically at Asian crime at the time, and out
of that came nothing. A really good report said we
had a problem. My recommendations, and one of those recommendations
was to increase my crew by one by sergeant and
(05:56):
three to specialize and keep working on gangs because you've
started something and now you've identified it, so you need
to keep searching.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
And that was not back knocked back.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, it was noted back.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So all you were after was one unit of three
people and a sergeant.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
What would that have costed?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Oh jeez, well probably four and a grand I suppose
when I think about it, when you sort put all
the wages together in superannuation. But the point was that
we had a task force to establish whether we had
a gang problem, and then when you prove you have,
you then say you don't do anything about it because
you just walk away, which doesn't make sense to me
(06:37):
at all.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Because we did see various high ranking police officers stand
up in front of the media and say there are
no gangs in Victoria. You're right. It was political correctness,
and what their members were seeing on the streets was
very different. Yes, Why do you think that they were
so wrapped up in political correctness when you could see,
for instance, the overrepresentation in the crime stats of young
(07:00):
men in particular, and assaults specifically.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I really wish I could answer that. It seemed common
sense to say, you know, you're saying this to the public,
but the public can see that it's there, so why
would you deny that? And it was just avoidance of
using that word, even though they knew that that was
the situation. Look in some cases it wasn't a gang
at all. It was just a bunch of use that
(07:27):
were causing problems, you know. And unfortunately we use the
gang words too loosely, and I was very much pushing
for that too, that not to use it as strongly
as what it has been used by the press, and
so ensure through intelligence led policing that we've established this
as a gang and then say it's a gang. My
cycle gangs, you can identify them quite easily, and you
(07:50):
use the names of those particular gangs quite loosely as well,
because they've been around for so long. But with street gangs,
when you start naming names, you then cause influence and
you cause interest, and other kids then join that gang.
They gravitate towards it because it's the it's the flavor
of the month.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You are so right. I did my research. I should
have got a PhD for it. Going on the outloor
motorcycle clubs, and I called them clubs deliberately because in
the media it was all about outlaw motorcycle gangs, and
what I was seeing inside a couple of clubs like
the finx Hell's Angels. Was this media hype was making
these clubs more attractive. I was seeing a particular things.
(08:28):
There was a queue of people trying to join.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
There's a recruiting drive. That's what it is. And that's
why I got very nervous. Whenever the media used to
call me about particular gangs and who is it, I said,
I'll never tell you that, because you know, once it
gets the court, well well it would be discussed there.
But in between, you're actually providing kudos, and it's free advertising.
You can't pay for this. You couldn't pay for the
(08:52):
amount of publicity you get from what's seen in the
newspapers and on the news. In some new paper articles
us to show the lists of gangs across the across
the state and where they're located. Thinking, oh my god,
you just you can't pay for this.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
You really can't. I mean, I've read your thesis all
one hundred and ninety five pages. Some of it are
skin but one of the real things you zero in
on is the question of definition or description. Explain the
difference with.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
A definition you're locked in, and I'll give you sort
of an idea. Say, look, I always use a description
of say killer going back thirty years ago, is that
the same sat Kilda today? No, it's not. It's totally different.
It's trendy to be there. Yes, there are still problems,
as with any any suburb, and unfortunately some people gravitate
towards that suburb. But what it was, if we described
(09:45):
it thirty years ago and stuck with that definition, we'd
have a definition that's totally wrong and it's not what
it was. It's the same with gangs. Unfortunately, with a definition,
it actually locks you in. In the US, they have
definitions for gangs and that's then a legislative requirement, and
then sometimes that's doesn't necessarily match what the gang now
(10:08):
looks like in comparison to what the situation was before.
So it was easier to go with a descriptor, so
you can actually give an overview to say, well, this
is what you're seeing, this is what's possible it is,
and it's gravitating towards that. So it's basically a number
of academics have agreed with me in relation to what
(10:29):
I have to say, and there's other academics that went
along this line as well that said that descriptors are
a better way to go because times change and you're
locked into something, so you're.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Looking more at the behaviors and the anecdotes and the
lived reality rather than some sort of high fluding definition.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, because some definitions in the US locked in descriptors
and a name of the gang and clothing and tags
and all those sort of things. Now, you see a
lot of our kids, you know, the only thing that
we see with gangs now at the moment or this
gang behavior is they're all dressed in black. That's about it.
Whereas there is a uniformity in the US with types
(11:12):
of clothing that would wear. And in some cases these
gangs don't necessarily have a name that's sassarily as well,
you know, they're not necessary. They're shoying away from that
because that's an identity. It attracts police attention.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yes, you've got a couple of definitions or descriptors in
your thesis, which I think is sort of useful. I'll
run this one past you. A gang is a group
of recurrently associating individuals with identifiable leadership and internal organization,
identifying with or claiming control over territory in the community,
and engaging either individually or collectively in violent or other
forms of illegal behavior. Is that a useful one?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, it's good. But the one I came up with
is a street gang is a durable, street based group
whose members collectively exhibit unity and identity through their behavior
and criminal activity. So the other one's quite long windowed
minds two sentences. But then with that description, I then
make sure with my descriptor that each part of it
(12:12):
is broken down into durable, street based collective unity and
behavior and what those actually mean, so that people can't
construe their own theories about what I'm trying to say.
But the main part is a unity and criminal behavior,
and that's really what it's all about. But the unity
part of it is quite obvious. And the durability that's
(12:33):
another thing as well, because I say gang today, gone tomorrow.
So you've got a bunch of kids that are allegedly
a gang and then they just disappear. But it's got
to be over time. It can't be oh, they just
formed today and then suddenly the gang. They've got to
be some sort of history with that particular group that
say that they're gang. But I have this but only
as a guide to people a guide to the police
(12:56):
officers to make a decision about what they've got because
we have no legislation that makes an offense to be
in a gang.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Well, we've tried that areous states, These addy association laws,
mainly with the biker clubs. They really haven't worked. I mean,
we've driven them underground mostly. So I mean, is that
political policing again, people trying to quell a sense of
disorder in the community rather than actually solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, I suppose that's right. But we have that situation
here where we've tried to bring our own gang legislation
in to tackle omcgs, but unfortunately with our Human Rights Charter,
or I say unfortunately, I don't mean it that way,
but it has caused a problem for us that to
bring in some of the laws they say available in Queensland.
We've tried to bring them into Victoria, but the Human
(13:41):
Rights Charter won't allow it, and we've worked around it,
worked around and still haven't been able to address that.
So so of our powers aren't as strong as what
they should be, or what we'd like them to be.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
But can you legislate that sort of reaction? Because I've
seen most of those laws around the country get to
the High Court and they get knocked down, and often
the High Court justice says, well, listen, all the the
existing powers you need, you already have under the Crimes Act.
You should be going stronger on criminal proceeds type legislation.
You should do more about local policing. And I remember
(14:16):
one of the old coppers I know, Brian Francis Murphy,
he said, listen, with these biking gangs, all you need
is a local sergeant on a bicycle to go past
every week and work out what's going on. So I
think we have abdicated the streets to the gangs.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yes, right, Look, I think I remember quite some years
ago when I was in the Organized Crimes myself of
the inspector, sat down and had a chat and looked
at the overseas situation FMG situation, and we said, look,
you know, why don't we call them in and have
a chat and we're going to do a run between
one location to another. And we know everyone talked to
(14:54):
West Australia how they handle it and so on, but
no one's ever sat down and just have a chat
with them. And he looked at me and he said
that's not a bad idea. So we did that and
that's how it was started. Having that, having to chat
with them. They thought well, you know, they thought, well, geez,
something's going on here. Why are you calling us in anyway?
We sat from Danny said, oh, no one's ever sat
down with us before, and well it's a good start,
(15:16):
isn't it. And so you get sort of one they
know you're looking at them, and two, we just want
to sort out a problem here because you're going to
cause chaos. And that's when things have developed over time.
But you know, it hasn't addressed the problem totally. But
that's sometimes we just missed the point. We should just
sit down and talk to people and say, right, how look,
warn them, address it and say well you're on notice.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah. I think getting back to that difference between definition
and descriptives is particularly apt with the bikey clubs. Yes,
where my experience was going inside that there. It wasn't
a criminal unit per se. There were people who had
criminal records in there, but you had cells within the
club that was doing business with other clubs, even some
(16:02):
of their real rivals. For the business was being done
sell to sell rather than the clubs being the unit
of the crime, and that to me was a big
stumbling block to do anything meaningful.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yes, you're right, you're right, But as with anything of that,
it's for their identity to remain or to be ongoing.
Money is the factor, you know. They don't just have
club fees just like you have at a bowling club.
They have to survive, and obviously they do survive through
criminal activity. But as with anything, you know, the people
(16:39):
who join that are looking for a sense of friendship, family,
loyalty to themselves and to others. And what I find
though in time, if something goes astray, they get arrested,
caught up in some other activity. Well basically they're white,
so suddenly there's unity is there, But this unity is
suddenly gone. You know, Wait till you go into prison
(17:01):
and see how often they're coming to visit you, you know
that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It does vary from club to club, but I think
you're dead right. And I was seeing guys in there
whose decision to join was based around family breakdown, often
lack of a strong male role model, often domestic violence
against mothers. I had one guy who told me, you know,
mum was getting bashed by her husband for years until
one day at Christmas dinner he bashed her again. I
(17:27):
went out and got a shovel and bashed him over
the head. That was the last I saw of my family.
Then I went to jail and I met Bikey's, who
I felt were much more sturdy role models than what
I've been exposed to.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, well, he's looking for something and now he's found
an answer. And that's sometimes like his and or street
gangs are looking for that loose entity that needs somewhere
to go, and suddenly they throw their arms around them
and now they've got a new member in their group,
and now you're locked in. And the only way a
lot of the times they do leave, as in that
case is possibly meets a girl as a child. Besides,
(18:02):
I can't keep going like this. Or I did a
job in a side, Well, this sort of life is
going to interfere with the outcome of me having this job,
and so they then straight away and then there's repercussions
with that as well, because I don't know that so much.
With street gangs, it has happened in the US and
other locations are known about Victoria, but you know with omcgs,
(18:23):
it is a straight away. I think there's a bit
there's a bit of an issue there with them in
relation to initiated in initiated out so to speak.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Well, you're right. I think what's happened in recent years,
particularly in response to the media moral panic about this,
which as I said before, has elevated the status of
these clubs to criminal gangs. We've seen clubs recruiting muscle,
recruiting crooks from outside their normal recruiting area, from underworld groups,
and these people get drawn in, used and spat out
(18:53):
the other end. And I've met a few over the
years who have had a very sobering experience about how
that goes. It's all brotherhood and love and blood loyalty
until you're in the dock by yourself, that's right.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
They suddenly they disappear, And that's what happens with the kids. Basically,
they're looking for something that they haven't got. Sex, drugs,
rock and roll, you know, the whole bit. But the
main thing as they're looking for is some sort of
friendship and to be seen because they're not being seen otherwise.
And they join and then suddenly they're dragged into something
that maybe they didn't expect to happen in the first place,
(19:26):
that they didn't know. Well, I didn't know it was
going to go this far, and it's too late then,
and unfortunately then they go into the youth training system
and then they're never seen a game by the rest
of the game.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
That's true. Fortunately, the high level of dissatisfaction is an
advantage for police who in certain clubs have managed to
turn important members into giving evidence being informers.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Oh, that's definitely right, But the hard part is trying
to identify who those people are, you know. But yes,
as a prime way of doing it, obviously you're getting
the inside knowledge that you haven't you would have had before.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
How much did you gather from those sort of informers
when you were run the Asian Squad, for instance.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
The staff I had were really really unique in the
way they approached their work because our role of the
Asian Squad. It was formed by the Asian community for
the Asian community, because they were being extorted by their
own people, and it was not the norm for them
to come forward and speak to the police because of
the fear factor from when they were in Vietnam. But
(20:29):
they trusted us so over the years a squad existed
for twenty one years and unfortunately under the Major Crime
Review within Victoria Police it was dissolved. But it was
one of those units that had the primary role of
getting out into the community and meeting with them, going
to all those social events. But as a result of that,
(20:51):
we built up rapport and trust and so there would
be an example would be a stabbing and that victim
is in hospital. The police attend to talk to the victim.
The victim's not going to tell you anything. When we
come along, they identify us, they know us, they build
up trust and we warn them so we'll handle this.
(21:12):
We don't want revenge situation to him, the repercussions, and
as a result of that, it's just a slow buildup
of trust and then leave it with us. We will
fix it. But that's why a lot of times they
would only speak to members of the Asian Squad. And
on top of that, my guys knew everyone. There was
a murder in Collingwood Flats in the high rise towers there.
(21:36):
Charlie Bazina came to us with pictures of three entities
in the lift in the elevator and we just went bang, bang,
bang and He couldn't believe it, you know, he said, well,
who is that person? That person's this person and that
person there that we can't see, Well, he associates with
that person, so era be him, you know that sort
of stuff. It was just a really good rapport and
(21:56):
they would feel very safe coming to talk to us.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yes, that's Charlie Bizen, an ex homicide and a great
detective in his own right. Another great police officer, the
late great McK miller. And I'm sure you probably started
your career under Mick. He used to say that police
can only work with the assent of the community. When
you talk about getting communities on side, that's when you
get results and trust. That's kind of lacking these days.
(22:21):
From what I can see, it.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Seems to be that way. I don't know why, you know, obviously,
I've been retired about three years now, but I do
see on social media where officers veterans are talking to
each other about different things, and some of the common
things are is that these veterans, who you know, very
very vast experience, and here they're seeing crimes being committed
(22:44):
and actually reporting them. They're finding that the response to
those crimes by those officers to those walk up starts
for what of a better word, are none responsive and
they just start to understand, don't understand what's going on.
You know, you've got a cop, the most reliable witness
you could possibly haveving you a head start, and it
(23:06):
doesn't seem to be happening. And I mean that's not
in every case. It's not in every case, but it's
just sad that's being said sometimes. You know, I love
vic poll you know, it was my career for forty
six years. But yeah, there are there seems to be
some changes and I don't understand why. It's probably unfair
(23:26):
to some of those people that aren't like that, but
there it just seems to be some officers are seeing
crimes and giving place a help start and it's not
going anywhere.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, it must be frustrating to you. You're one of
the most well qualified gang experts in the country. You
were at the coal face, you were advising Victoria Police
and do you think they could have done better with
what we're seeing today had they adopted what you were saying?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I think so. I always said when I was talking
to any members of Commander, we've got an opportunity to
get it right, because in the and following on for
the UK, it's only grew and grew, and there were
ways to approach these things this rapid rise, but we
just didn't do it. We talked about it. They were
(24:19):
pushing me in twenty fifteen when I've just about finished
this thesis about my descriptor, you know, so they can
use that to gather intelligence and assess properly about what
the situation is. Is it a gang or isn't it
And that's never still hasn't been used. And you know,
along with that, in the back of my thesis, you'll
see there's a document there which is a descriptor for
(24:41):
police officers on the street, a little notebook so to speak,
so you have a flick and tick. It's a prompt
sheet and on the rear of that you can then
look at that the answers you've got against the descriptor
and say, well, possibly i've got a street gang here,
and then hand it into the sergeant and then you
gather the intelligence and work out, right, we've got to
target that particular group, or we've got to make sure
(25:02):
that we have the right people in place to talk
with these kids. And you know, social workers. That's another
issue as well, because the way it is at the
moment is that the police have given the job of
doing everything. You know, they're they're the social worker, mental
health expert, and law enforcement. And basically what should be
happening with these kids is that they're arrested, they handed
(25:24):
straight to a social worker. Not weeks later after when
it comes up for court and magistrate, kids said us,
so I was this kid being nessessed yet no, Oh,
there's a further delay and a further delay, And so
it should be along those lines. Les's twenty minute hour
where I were great friends. He always advocated for that.
That's the way that it should respond. There's a priest
(25:46):
in La father Greg Boyle, no relation, but he set
up Homeboy Industries. I visited him two or three times
in the US, and basically he had a situation where
he would bring the kids in and basically they were
looking for avenues of getting out of the gangs. But
who do I talk to? And obviously the priest along
with social workers, basically removing tattoos, giving them a job,
(26:09):
all that sort of stuff. You got to start somewhere.
And at the moment, it's just law enforcement responding and
I'll just add to that. In two thousand and three,
there was a woman by my name, Karen McCluskey, who
was a nurse in Glasgow and Glasgow had that point
that had the worst crime rate in Europe and it
was all based on street gangs and kids. The police there,
(26:33):
they brought her in to assess the situation and what
she saw. She was a nurse, pluster psychologist. She saw
that the police were doing their job but no one
else was. So all the social workers, mental health experts,
health department, all these agencies were not doing their job
and so she held them to account and so there
(26:53):
was pressure and pressure. Two years later, forty nine percent
drop in the crime rate based on what she was doing.
We invited her out here in twenty thirteen and she
spoke at a family violence conference about crime in Barsgow.
It was family violence plus violence as well on the street.
She spoke again in twenty thirteen and what do we
(27:16):
do about it? Nothing? Now, that was the response. I
even think Ross Gunther, retired Deputy Commissioner. He did an
article with John Sylvester. He talked about there should be
a summit getting together where all these groups who have
responsibilities to address this crime and work on it together.
(27:36):
And what happened. I think clinically he was told off
for approaching things that way. It was it was just crazy.
It's just crazy that we are left up to doing
the job when there were so many others have got
responsibility to do that. They're their part.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Pat, I can see how it pains you to criticize
your former employees. You invested your life in Victoria Police,
but you can love the organization and take issue with
decisions of individuals. Yes, and I think it's great that
you're speaking out now because we have this major problem.
These gangs are brave and getting braver. We're seeing gangs
organizing confrontations inside train stations, in shopping malls. They're running
(28:21):
around with machetes and things. It's quite terrifying for the public.
And it just seems that the police, not just in Victoria,
but in New South Wales as well, probably all across
the country, they're just reactive rather than trying to address
the issue its source.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes, it appears that way, and I look at the
other side of it too. Is obviously resources as well,
and I think the police now are sort of busier
than they've ever been running from job to job. You're
just like, it's just like being a clerk. You know,
I'm going to go to that job, go to that job,
and then some stage we'll try and work out how
to address that crime. But yes, it's not the way
(28:57):
to operate that you have to respond all the time.
We should be trying to address it before it happens,
and unfortunately it's just the way things are at the moment.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And the political response here from the Allen government of
Victoria when they've seen a machete attacks in the shopping
center is to ban the machete And I'm thinking, well,
Bunnings is full of murder weapons, but why don't they
have switched to something else.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, this is no different than selling spray cans under eighteen.
You know, you can't buy them. You know, it's a
similar thing. And unfortunately the government with this response and
with the bail laws, we had the strongest bail laws
and then under the Andrews government we got rid of them.
And now they say we brought in these new laws.
They were not new laws. They're the old ones, the
(29:42):
old ones that we already had. You just brought them
back in againsted off the paperwork and said ask you
here we go, here's your laws back. But they sort
of announced it like we're a bit of chessbirding, We're
out to fix this problem. But it was just a
revolving door for a lot of the kids. It was
just a joke.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, and you're seeing kids now, not just in Victoria,
across the country getting bail on bail on bail, they're
getting freed. There's an attitude which is probably waning now
that once you lock a kid up, you're now locking
him into a criminal future. Is that a fair comment?
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It's hard to say really. We mean, there's ways of
separating kids from other kids who are the problem, you know,
but that's a process within the youth justice system that
they've got to look at. But what seems to be
happening a lot of the time, you know, all these
people who are civil libertarians, which yes, they have their role,
but the point is they'll be expressing their opinion about something,
(30:37):
and if they actually looked at the facts and looked
at what how many kids are within the youth justice
system at the moment, There's not too many ten year
olds in there, but they keep harping on about we're
locking up all these really young kids. The ones that
they are remanding are ones that are a real risk
to the community. It's very very hard for a child
(30:57):
to be either remanded and or sentenced to a period
of imprisonment or custody. It's very very hard, and so
the ones that are in there, it's actually, well, we've
got no choice. We've got to protect society from these kids,
and we've got to then address the behavior of those
kids as well while they're in there, and how that
system works. I haven't got the experience there, but that's
(31:19):
where it's falling down. If they are then sentenced, well,
they've then got to be looked at and said, well,
how do we get this kid back to what he
or she was before they were arrested.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Well, I love also this term that we need to
rehabilitate these kids. You look at some of the backgrounds,
what they've been exposed to, family violence, all kinds of things.
You think they've never been habilitated.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
No, no, sure, that's what Karen McCluskey in her research,
she was finding some of these kids who were they
were in care at foster care, but where they were
located next door, a pedophile lived, or up the street
there was another organized crime figure. So these foster parents
were basically they were looking after this kid. The kid
(32:05):
was in the middle of a melting pot of crime
in that area. So there was all these little things
that they should have been looking at when they're all
factors about why kids get exposed to crime, or the
foster parents weren't that good anyway, you know, although in
it for was the money, but not to help the child.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, we're talking earlier about the fact that lost souls
find their way into gangs and motorcycle clubs and so forth,
because there's a feeling of safety and security, and I
think that's missing from our justice system. I'm old school.
I think back to when my parents used to say,
I'm going to send you off to a reform school
if you don't start to behave and work out at school.
(32:46):
And I have this, maybe it's a fantasy or a dream,
that we could have a mentoring system based on prison farms,
people getting out, not just being locked up, but actually
the continuing education, working with role models, working with animals
in particular. I think that's a very civilizing influence. So
I think My view is we have to actually look
at the punishment end to see if we can steer
(33:07):
people in a different direction.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, and like you said too, some of these kids
are the loose end and susceptible adjoining gangs. But some
of them they've got no choice because it's all part
of their family in the first place, and so it's
just hereditary one of a better word. It's going to
be a norm for them because that's where that's where
they live, that's what their family does, and that's what
(33:30):
we do.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah. One of the big issues I'm seeing is also
in the reporting of these events, particularly these aggravated burglaries
machete attacks, there's a reluctance to say what the ethnic
origin of these people are. We're shy of saying they're Africans.
And I know for a fact that a lot of
these issues are coming from Sudanese refugees, Somalians and other
in that region who've come from really war torn backgrounds,
(33:55):
and when the families get here, often the parents don't
assimilate very well. So this reluctance to describe again you
use that wordscribe the individuals prevents a proper discussion.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
It does it doesn't. It's obvious to the public because
what ethnicity these people were that committed these crimes, because
we were exposed to so much CCTV now than ever before,
whether it be fixed cameras or people's phones filming an event,
it's just the exposures there and basically straight on it's
(34:32):
on our news every night. We basically see crimes just
about live, you know, or shortly after the event. We're
seeing what's happening, and we look at them and go, well,
I know what possible ethnicity that person is because they're
so tall and thin. But in other cases we can't.
But yes, there's a reluctance there, but not as much
(34:52):
as it used to be. Go back some years ago.
It was just we'd never say anything at all, which
is ridiculous because how does the public help us when
we don't know what we're looking for, you know, or
every ethnicity looks the same. It's not like that at all.
But unfortunately, on the other side of it, too, is
that we're stignifying every person who's that race, which is
(35:15):
a sad situation because it's only a small percentage that
are causing a problem, whereas the greater community aren't they
here because they want to be here. They're trying to assimilate,
and unfortunately a small few are giving them a bad name.
And with the kids, it's basically what's happened is that
mum and dad have come from these wart on countries.
(35:36):
But when we say that now it's been probably thirty
years they've been here now already, you know, it doesn't
seem that long. But time flies, and the first group
are happy to be here. And yes, their child may
not have a mum or a dad or either, and
so they're bringing brought up by the auntie and uncle.
But it's not that auntie and uncle and that mum
(35:58):
or dad that are a problem. It's the kid later
who is the second or third generation that causes a
problem because they haven't got any identity. They're trying to
be the particular race that they are, but with other
kids at school who are not of the ethnicity, and
he's trying to assimilate with them, and they're lost. But
(36:20):
if a group of those lost kids get together, well
they're a family now, and then unfortunately, this is what happens.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
That's very true.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Having to look quite regularly across the US.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It has and this intergenerational trauma you're talking about. I
went to Rwanda after the genocide in ninety four is
just after it, and you told the stories. You saw
the evidence of hundreds of thousands of people being murdered
with machetes often and kids growing up with that memory
and their parents going through that, and you think this
cannot be a recipe for any kind of normality in
(36:52):
their lives. And we've seen the same thing in Southern Sudan,
We've seen it in other countries in East Africa, and
they're coming here and being dropped into our society without
much assistance. And there's probably another argument to hold another podcast,
but yeah, I think police trying to deal with that.
We go back to that question of assent and if
police are not able to build bridges with the community,
(37:14):
how on earth can you stop this?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
That's right, I mean that was one thing with the
Asian Squad. We understood the culture. We you know, you
take the shoes off when you go in the front door.
You know, you hand them your business card with two hands,
because that's your handing them your identity. I want you
to know me. But they're the things that the street
cup needs to know, so they can get off to
(37:36):
a good start with anything to show respect for those
particular groups. But these kids, that sort of approach wouldn't
work with them. It's only going to work with the
mum and dad. And unfortunately, the response now too seems
to be that Vic Pohle are out there addressing ethic
(37:57):
based crime, but these communities seem to think that that's
the only people we're targeting, which is totally wrong. And
unfortunately that shits you should happened recently in Footscray where
that person was shot. You know, the response to that
by the community was abhorrent. You know, to go out
there the next day and protesting and making assumptions about
something that they know nothing about, and just presuming that
(38:20):
that's what happened, That this person was fatally shot for
no reason at all. It's just crazy. And the outcome
of that it just looked really, really bad for the community.
They didn't do themselves any favors by what they did.
And you know, I look at that and say, oh,
this was a homeless person, Well where were you? Where
was the community helping that homeless person? If they keep
(38:43):
calling them that that they were harmless, well that person
wasn't harmless. He was a risk to those members and
a risk to the community. Yet I just I find
sometimes we're walking on a tightrope about how we respond.
Have the big pole responds to things I keep saying, well,
because I forget that I'm lot a company.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
In the blue family. You're always part of it. That's true,
but you're dead right, But you're also I mean, I
think there's an assumption that police can shoot and kill
people with abandon and I'm sure you've dealt with members
have had to be in that situation, and this does
leave a lasting impact, but it can also lead to
bitterness and rivalry and more incidence of violence.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Of course, the ken and it's just the fallout of
that as none of those members ever want to do that,
and that's the last thing in the world they want
to do. And there's all the flow on effect later,
you know, the mental trauma of what they did, the
scrutiny being held to account for what just happened. But
unfortunately the community responding the way they did, and even
(39:48):
one of the persons there there they are, they've got
an ankle bracelet on and they're assaulting the police, you know,
as part of that group. And you look at the
things that way, you could have done things a lot better.
You know, really, it doesn't help you at all.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's very sad, entrenches the bitterness and issues. But let's
talk about rights of passage. I think that's certainly part
of what I've observed in motorcycle clubs and street gangs,
and we're seeing now on the streets of our cities
this situation where people are doing aggravated burglaries, stealing cars,
(40:25):
going on the freeway and daring the police to chase them,
and that's seen as part of a right of passage
towards solidarity within a group of young offenders.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
It's crazy. I never lived through that. I've been involved
in New Rumorus car chases, but nothing like what I've
seen now. And I just wonder that these young people
seem to think they have nine lives. You know. It's
like watching a playing a video game where you know,
bang bang bang, I shoot. Next minute, Well, I've got
(40:56):
a second life and I can keep going. And it's
the same with the cars. They're ramming police cars, and
I don't know what they think is going to happen
as a result of ramming a police car that their
car going to keep going. You know, it just doesn't
make sense. And I sometimes look at things and go, well,
where do they think this is going to escalate to?
You know, what's the outcome that they think is going
(41:17):
to happen that they're just going to get away at
the moment, you know, the chopper is up there more
than it's ever been. It must be costing a fortune
to have it up in the air, but it's the
quickest response and the safest response to those sort of matters.
But it just seems to be a standard outcome steal
the car and get involved in the chase and ram
the police car. It just seems to be second nature. Now.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
I don't know why it really is. I was talking
to one two five one sergeant is on the night
shift mostly and he says this every night, almost in
the in certain times of the year. And I have
to say that some of the police don't mind the situation.
It's pretty exciting work, you know, with the chopper up
and you've got the you've got the canine unit there,
you've got the critical Incident Response team as well, and
often they catch these fellas. And he said to me,
(42:01):
he said, one day, this is all going to be over,
you know, because I think the old it outs there
is more technology to stop these cars without having to
use stop this. I mean, we see these stopsticks with
the spikes and barbs on them to stop these cars,
and I guess what they're saying is we want to
use these to catch cars at low speed, not fast.
(42:21):
But I think some sort of governors on these cars
would be a better technology to stop them.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Oh, it's like a lot of responses the theft of
motor cars. You put all the micro dots within the
engine bay area, all that sort of stuff to try
and identify cars back into the days of cars being
stolen for all the other purposes, being transported overseas and
things like that. But yes, in that case, it would
be a great way just to stop the vehicle. But
(42:46):
at the moment, it's just a it's a standard type
vehicle as well that they want to steal. It's not
your old hold in commodore. They want to they want
to mark, and they want to BMW and they want
to outy and they're planning where those cars are located
and breaking into those homes. When I say breaking, in
a lot of the times that they're leaving the doors open,
which is I don't know how many times you have
to tell people don't do that. I know, you want
(43:08):
to feel comfortable in your own home and live the
way you want to live. And unfortunately times are changed
and you you've got to lock your premise.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Well you're right, and also you've got you've got homes
where and this is the way they built these days,
townhouses with the expensive outer you park and the driveway
it's it's not enclosed, and the offenders know if they
kick the door in, they'll find the keys on the
hook inside and if they go the I don't know
why outer is. I mean, I've never found the very attractive,
but they're the ones people want to steal it.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Oh the AMG Mercedes, and you know it just seems
to be the case. But then they feel they're going
to outrun the police and then outrun the dog. There's
a prime answer too. You know that the new chief
is coming in. We's come from a police force where
there's one hundred and twenty dogs in their police force
and we'd probably got half that. And I look at
it and say, well, you know the fear factor. Wise,
(43:59):
you let a dog loose they're going to stop. They're
worth three or four cops to tell you the truth.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
They are, And you're right. Our new New Zealand Commission's
coming in they're going to have We've got fifty four
dogs in Victoria and they can't get enough of them.
They're valuable, valuable assets, and you're right. They do create
compliance in a way that the officers can't and it's safer.
Unfortunately that does put the dogs at risk, but certainly
safer for human members.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, that's right. But normally they hear the dog coming,
they'll throw themselves on the floor, you know, because they
don't want the outcome of being bitten.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
That's right. Listen, we've painted a terrible picture of doom
and gloom here. But I think what you probably found
in your research is that this youth gang culture, if
they don't get entrenched in the criminal system, there is
a point where they can change their hearts and change
their lives.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Well, of course there is. Yeah, there's definitely that. Not
only your cliche kids were born bad. You know, they've
been born into situations that they never had any control.
There are kids that you'll probably never change, unfortunately, but
there are kids that can be saved for sure. But
the biggest way to do that is basically get on
top of all these particular gangs and address who they are,
(45:12):
what they are, and target them appropriately. Sometimes we think
about gangs and we think, oh, we've got to go
get the hierarchy downwards. But a lot of street gangs
don't have a hierarchical structure. They're just the person who's
a leader might be the person a leader for a
day because they have a certain skill. They step up
and fight. They're the best fighter. Well, we'll use them.
(45:35):
He knows how to steal a car, or use him.
He knows how to break into house. He's the leader
for the day. They don't want to be led. That's
the biggest problem. They don't want So sometimes the way
you attack things that might be a bit different with
omcgs and other organized crime, but not street kids. You've
got to take up the whole group. You can't just
take a singular entities because it's not going to make
(45:56):
any difference.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Okay. In a parallel universe, Victoria Police comes back and says,
Patrick Boyle, you were right, we were wrong. I want
you to come back and set up a gang squad.
What would you do.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I think a lot of it. A lot of our
gang unit is basically all Melbourne based. It's within the
crime squads, but where the crime is happening is out
in the regions. So at a regional level, which they
are I'm doing that in Southern Metro they have a
group that's targeting gangs all the time and working on
that and that's where there has to be units within
(46:28):
regional locations who are trained and specialized in gang activity
to get out there but also to be involved with
all the social workers as well and understand and talk
to them and say, hey, you've got this kid, got
this kid, that got this kid and send them the information,
say hey you got to go. You've got to go
and visit that kid, because it's not our role to
be visiting kids. You know that kid needs help. But
(46:50):
at the moment, the gang unit we have, while they're
out there doing a great job, but they're responding. Whereas
the intelligence is out there in the regions and we
need units within there to be able to solely look
at this or from a local level and then feed
that information into a central area as well, and also
make sure that what we are gathering the intelligence wise
(47:12):
is based on a descriptor. This is what a gang is,
this is the one, this is the game we're going
to target. But at the moment, I don't know what
air intelligence looks like and who's making a decision about
what actually is a gang if we don't have a
descriptor to go by, so you're gathering in false information.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
How does the future look right now given the settings
we have in place.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Well, we're in a standstill, you know, we're not moving
forward or backward. We're responding all the time, and it's
just terrific to see it happening every night. But I
don't necessarily have all the answers at the moment because
you're sort of you know, you don't have all the
intelligence in front of you. All I'm seeing is what's
on TV. But I don't know what There's a big
difference to what you see on TV and what is
(47:55):
actually one our ability to address it and to a
true understanding of what is actually happening, I'm not exposed
to that anymore. I don't have the intelligence reports and
all that sort of stuff that you used to see
before and be able to make an assessment correct.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I've got a mantra knowledge, courage, action. You certainly took
that path in your research, and I can see a
very useful place for a summit as you've not just
in Victoria, across the country, because I think this is
a problem in every state, probably around the world actually,
So anyway, I really thank you for sharing your experiences
in your service and continuing to advocate on this very
(48:30):
difficult topic which is burdened by politics and lack of resources.
Expediency which was one of mc miller's favorite terms. When
there was a problem, expediency won the day, he would say,
and that's what's working now. Thank you so much for
your time today.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Pat, Yes, sir, now is Adam? Thanks for asking me.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
That's Pat Boyle, ex Victoria Police, one of our most
qualified specialists on street gangs. We are losing the war
right now, and it is a war for our streets.
We're losing our kids. I'd love to hear from listeners
out there who've had these experiences. What are the street
gangs in your area? What's going on? Are the police
walking the streets? Do they know who's actually out there?
(49:10):
We often see police officers driving around their suburbs now
with the windows up. They don't hear what's going on outside.
It's time they walk those streets again. But of course
massive resources issues there to address this has been real
crime with Adam Shann Thank you for listening. If you
have any information you want to share with me, email
me on Adam Shanned writer at gmail dot com, or
(49:31):
if you want to report a crime, crime Stoppers one
eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. Thanks for listening.
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